Latest / INSPIRE STORY / #066_STORY INSPIRE: Decisions that transforman with David Sinclair

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#066_STORY INSPIRE: Decisions that transforman with David Sinclair · INSPIRE STORY

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: The Joe Rogan Experience.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. Mr. Sinclair,
• 0:13
  good to see you again.
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: Dr. Sinclair?
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: Doctor.
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: I'm kidding.
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: It's better that way, right? Yeah, do you ever introduce
• 0:20
  yourself as doctor?
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: Never.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a kind of a, it's a weird thing
• 0:24
  because you're allowed to.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: I'm actually a Sir David from Australia.
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: Are you a sir?
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's kind of a joke. I don't really.
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: How does that work out? Did you get knighted or
• 0:35
  some shit?
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: The Queen's representative gave me some Australian version of a knighthood.
• 0:39
  But I get to put AO at the end of
• 0:42
  my name.
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: AO?
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Order of Australia.
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: Oh.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: But it actually makes no difference to my life. So
• 0:49
  it's just an extra couple of letters.
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: It's kind of cool.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: I'm honored, for sure. But it's just a joke.
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: Well, it's kind of anybody, sir. You meet a guy
• 1:01
  at the gas station. How you doing, sir?
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: It's like, wow, how does he know? Right.
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: You don't say how you're doing, King. Yeah. Right.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm David. I'm Australian. So in Australia, if you
• 1:12
  have any ego, you get beaten up in the playground.
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: That is true. Australia is the land of the tall
• 1:17
  poppy syndrome. They don't they don't fuck around. They don't
• 1:21
  like you getting a big head in Australia.
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: That is that is true. I like to go back there, though,
• 1:25
  because it's a level playing field. Nobody cares who you are.
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: I love the people there. Australian people are some of
• 1:31
  my favorite people. They're awesome. They're very friendly and fun.
• 1:36
  It's a great place to be. It's just too far
• 1:38
  to get there. It's such a haul. Oh, no.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: If you just, you know, whiskey in an Ambien and
• 1:43
  you're there without.
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: Is that what you do?
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: I used to. I've gone clean. I don't drink much
• 1:48
  at all anymore.
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: What does that mean? How often does he drink much
• 1:51
  at all? Celebrations. Do you want to drink right now?
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: No, it would be a bad look. I've got the
• 1:56
  coffee that you gave me.
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this is Laird Superfood Coffee. So Laird Hamilton. It's
• 2:03
  black rifle coffee mixed with his superfood stuff, which is–
• 2:07
  this one is turmeric. So it's turmeric and I think
• 2:09
  it has coconut milk in it and some other jazz.
• 2:12
  That's great.
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: Anti-inflammatory. Yes.
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: Which I know you're all about.
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: Yes, as a prophet of longevity. Yes.
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: Is that another title of you?
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: Yes, you can call me Sir David the Prophet. How
• 2:27
  about that?
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: Sir David, the prophet. Dr. Sir David, the prophet of longevity.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: That'll do.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: So there's a lot. Let's just jump right into it
• 2:36
  because there is a lot going on in the longevity space.
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: Thank you for having me back on.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: My pleasure.
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: And by the way, I also want to thank you for,
• 2:45
  I think this is fourth time on, which is amazing.
• 2:48
  Thank you. Congrats on all your success.
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: It's been wonderful to see. Also, the book that I wrote,
• 2:54
  which you first had me on to promote, has done
• 2:56
  so well. And it's really because of you. And the
• 2:58
  book Lifespan became a bestseller. Not just that, but it's
• 3:02
  now been read millions of times around the world. It's
• 3:04
  in 40 languages.
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: Well, that's phenomenal, and it's my pleasure.
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: And that's not a promo. As you know, you don't
• 3:09
  make any money from books really. But I'm just honored
• 3:11
  that it was read by so many people around the
• 3:14
  world because it wasn't an easy read. It was high-tech science.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: Well, people are very interested, especially nowadays. I think I've
• 3:22
  never– I can't recall a time– In my life where
• 3:28
  optimizing your health and longevity has been more of a
• 3:32
  subject that people are interested in.
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: Well, I think that's largely because not to keep blowing
• 3:37
  smoke up your rear, but largely because of what you
• 3:41
  did in the book. So the book went global and
• 3:45
  it was right in 2019 and the pandemic hit. And
• 3:50
  I think most people saw their own mortality at that point.
• 3:53
  Most people under the age of about 70 didn't even
• 3:55
  think about dying, but then pandemics like shit, I could die.
• 3:59
  And I saw the book take off. You launched it.
• 4:03
  But yeah, since then, a lot of people have jumped
• 4:05
  on the bandwagon and now longevity is, I hear this
• 4:08
  everywhere I go. It's everything.
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: It's everywhere. People are constantly talking about different modalities. How
• 4:13
  often do you cold plunge? Are you sauna? What about
• 4:16
  the red light? What do you think? Is this legit?
• 4:18
  Is that legit? Like this, everybody's optimizing everything constantly all
• 4:21
  the time, but The reason why it's caught on is
• 4:23
  because if you do follow some of the protocols, you
• 4:26
  will feel better. And so that's the ultimate goal. Longevity
• 4:31
  is wonderful, but feeling better in the moment currently, like
• 4:35
  living your life, should be primary. Longevity, I think, is
• 4:40
  if you're optimizing your life and you feel better, you
• 4:44
  will live longer. It's all part of it. So if
• 4:47
  you follow the longevity principles and the ideas behind it,
• 4:50
  you certainly will live better right now.
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: You will and it's not even that hard. There are
• 4:54
  basic things, five basic things you can do or avoid
• 4:58
  and you can live another 15 years. It's really not
• 5:00
  that hard and that's what I'm excited about telling millions
• 5:02
  of people today is– and maybe we can go over
• 5:05
  the kind of things that people can do easily to
• 5:06
  live longer.
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: Well, I definitely want to do that. But I also
• 5:09
  want to talk about like what is the current state
• 5:13
  of science today? uh, as applied to longevity treatments? Like,
• 5:19
  cause I know that there's some pretty groundbreaking stuff that's
• 5:23
  in the pipeline right now. Yeah.
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: It's so since 2019, a lot of what we talked
• 5:29
  about has come true, which is the amazing thing. We, uh,
• 5:33
  we're speculating 2019 that we could potentially reverse aging. And
• 5:38
  that was a sin to say that as a scientist
• 5:41
  publicly in those days, I put it in the book. Um,
• 5:45
  And it's actually come true since then, certainly for the lab,
• 5:49
  for mice, monkeys. And now we have a human clinical trial,
• 5:53
  the first potential human age reversal technologies in people right now.
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: Listen, it completely seems logical. The idea that that at
• 6:01
  one point in time would have been heresy in science
• 6:04
  to discuss it. That seems crazy. Like if people get
• 6:09
  old and we understand the mechanism, why couldn't we reverse it?
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: Well, I think for a long time we had to
• 6:14
  accept it in the way that cancer used to be
• 6:17
  accepted 200 years ago probably. There was nothing you could
• 6:20
  do about it. And then my colleagues and I found
• 6:22
  that aging has a root cause that's the same in
• 6:25
  pretty much every cell in the body and that we
• 6:27
  could control that and that there were genes that not
• 6:29
  only slowed it down, but in 2020 we had a
• 6:32
  big publication that showed we could actually safely for the
• 6:35
  first time reverse that process like reinstalling software in the
• 6:38
  cell to make it work again.
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: And so what is the– is that using CRISPR? Like
• 6:44
  what are you using to– Well.
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: We deliver genes into the body like CRISPR. I have
• 6:51
  a little prop here I brought.
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: What is that?
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: In my pocket here. This is a representation of how
• 6:55
  we deliver the age reversal genes. It's a virus-like capsule
• 7:00
  that we make in the lab. And this is what's
• 7:02
  going into the patients right now, into their eyes initially.
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: Whoa.
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: The eye is a good place to start.
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: How do you pick the people to get on these tests?
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: They volunteer. I was really fortunate to see the first
• 7:18
  patient get dosed earlier this year. And that person bravely
• 7:24
  volunteered to be the first person to get trillions of
• 7:28
  these injected into his eye to see if it could
• 7:31
  cure his glaucoma loss of vision.
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: I bet if you have glaucoma, you're probably like, listen,
• 7:36
  what's the worst that could happen? Well, exactly.
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: He pretty much was totally blind in one eye, and
• 7:42
  so there's really nothing that he has to lose. There's
• 7:45
  a risk that something might go wrong, but not really.
• 7:51
  The good news is, and I can report to everybody
• 7:53
  around the world, that nothing's gone wrong so far. Everything's
• 7:57
  proceeding according to plan, and we're at a turning point, potentially,
• 8:02
  in human history, if it works.
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: So I interrupted you, but explain this little virus transport system.
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: For those of you listening, I've got a little rubber
• 8:10
  ball with spikes on it. It looks a bit like COVID,
• 8:12
  but don't be scared of it. It's not a pathogenic virus.
• 8:17
  It's actually a domesticated version of a virus. And this
• 8:19
  little plastic ball has little adapters. These red balls on
• 8:23
  the surface of the big ball target it to the
• 8:27
  cells in the back of the eye. And you can
• 8:28
  change the balls to target different tissues. We could change
• 8:31
  that outside... little spike and target it to the liver,
• 8:34
  which we've done, and cured mice of their fatty liver
• 8:37
  disease as well. But this one's for the eye. And
• 8:40
  within that big ball is a protein capsule. And inside
• 8:44
  the protein capsule is our DNA special delivery, which we
• 8:50
  call OSK or ER100. ER100 is epigenetic reprogramming 100, the
• 8:56
  drug that we know when we put it into human cells,
• 8:59
  it makes them younger. And then they work like they
• 9:02
  were young again.
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: This sounds like the beginning of a horror movie. You
• 9:08
  know what I mean? Like the scientist is on a
• 9:10
  talk show. The scientist is explaining it. And everyone's at
• 9:13
  home like with their coffee like, wow. This is wonderful.
• 9:18
  We're going to get younger again. Don't worry.
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: It's all going to work out.
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: 28 days later, garbage in the streets, cars on fire.
• 9:26
  The guy's waking up from a coma, doesn't know what happened.
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: He goes outside.
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: These optimized humans are eating each other. I admit. I admit.
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: It is science fiction. And I even have to pinch
• 9:36
  myself that it's actually happening. But we've done a lot
• 9:38
  of safety studies and this trial is FDA approved because
• 9:41
  they've looked at all the data.
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: Well, God knows they never fuck anything up.
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: I figured you might say that.
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: Perfect. Yeah.
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: Well, it's in the eye. So that's why we start
• 9:50
  with the eye. It's enclosed. It's not going to spread.
• 9:53
  Nobody's going to grow another eye.
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: And so these trillions of cells that you're putting.
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: Into the eyes the little capsule the virus.
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: I shouldn't call them cells trillions of capsules that you're
• 10:06
  putting into the eye what are they doing for glaucoma.
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: Well what they're doing is there are three genes in
• 10:14
  this DNA package and I called them OSK OSK are
• 10:20
  three special genes that we found safely reprogram cells and
• 10:25
  reboot the backup copy of youth, which we now believe
• 10:29
  exists in our body. That's a big deal, that there's
• 10:32
  a backup copy of youth. Even an old person, I
• 10:34
  don't see an old person anymore on the street. I
• 10:37
  just see a person that needs to be rebooted. These
• 10:40
  OSK genes... You just see.
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: Wait a minute, hold on. When you see old people,
• 10:45
  you don't see old people, you just say, Oh, that
• 10:47
  poor person needs to be rebooted.
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: You're doing the perfect job for you. Like your personality
• 10:53
  is perfectly suited for your occupation if that's how you
• 10:57
  actually look at people.
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: Well, I do. And the reason is that we all
• 11:03
  have this backup copy that the DNA, the instructions to
• 11:07
  be young that made us into who we are as
• 11:10
  kids is still in our bodies, almost largely intact. You
• 11:15
  just need to read it again. And that's why reinstalling
• 11:18
  software or– I used to use the analogy of a CD.
• 11:22
  Kids these days probably don't know what a CD is.
• 11:25
  It's a little plastic circle like a record that we
• 11:27
  used to put 20 songs on. It was awesome at
• 11:29
  the time.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: I think most people know.
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: I'm kidding. I'm kidding. It's a bit of a silly joke.
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: Maybe a 10-year-old does it.
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: When I teach kids at Harvard, most of them have
• 11:37
  never held a CD.
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: Isn't that wild? Yeah.
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: They're not coming back but albums definitely. So think of
• 11:44
  it like an album that you scratch and the scratch
• 11:46
  is– like aging, and we are getting rid of the
• 11:50
  scratches with these three genes, OSK. So let me tell
• 11:53
  you how these three genes work, we found. There was
• 11:56
  a person whose name is well known in science circles
• 12:00
  called Shinya Yamanaka, from Japan, obviously. And he discovered that
• 12:06
  there was a set of four genes that could reliably
• 12:09
  make adult cells, like skin cells, into stem cells. And
• 12:13
  he deservedly won the Nobel Prize for that in 2006.
• 12:17
  But that wouldn't be useful here. If I turned you
• 12:20
  into a bunch of stem cells, you'd probably die within
• 12:23
  a few minutes. So we don't want to do that.
• 12:25
  And cancer is also a potential. So it took us about, well,
• 12:30
  from 2019, it took us a while to figure out
• 12:33
  that if we leave out one of the Aminoka genes
• 12:36
  and just use three, OSK, leave out the other one
• 12:39
  called M, we'd get safe age reversal, about 75%, 80%
• 12:42
  back to youth. but no further. We don't go back
• 12:46
  to zero, which is what Yamanaka did. And instead of
• 12:49
  cells losing their identity, which is what a stem cell
• 12:51
  has no identity, we regain identity. So it's actually, I
• 12:55
  could draw graphs, but it doesn't really help listeners. But basically,
• 12:59
  old age is losing identity of your cells. So they
• 13:02
  don't work. They forget how to work. That's what we
• 13:04
  think old age is in my lab. And stem cells
• 13:07
  have no identity. It was like a very early embryo.
• 13:10
  In between, our cells have a lot of identity. They
• 13:13
  function beautifully. We're in our 20s. We're at peak. And
• 13:17
  what we've done is we've figured out how to go
• 13:18
  back towards youth, get these cells to work like they
• 13:23
  did again, get the backup copy somewhere it exists. We're
• 13:27
  looking for it. And now cells actually behave like they
• 13:30
  did when we were 20. And if it works, we're
• 13:33
  going to have glaucoma patients seeing for the first time.
• 13:36
  And that's the beginning of a whole cascade of drugs
• 13:39
  that I want to develop for diseases of aging and
• 13:42
  eventually whole body rejuvenation.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: So the initial experiments are on glaucoma because it's a
• 13:48
  contained thing. The eyeball is a contained thing and you
• 13:52
  could do it that way?
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah. My student, Wan Cheng Lu, who was doing this
• 13:56
  in 2017, I said, let's do the liver. Let's rejuvenate
• 13:59
  the liver. And he said, no, the eye is a
• 14:00
  good idea. And he was right. So that's exactly why
• 14:03
  we chose that first.
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: But just think about how many people have vision problems.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: It's 40 million just in the U.S. for glaucoma. Macular
• 14:11
  degeneration is even more. And in the lab, we can
• 14:14
  cure that as well in the mice.
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: Now, macular degeneration and glaucoma, these are diseases of aging, right,
• 14:22
  you would say? Or glaucoma is a disease?
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: What about people that have had eyeball injuries and things
• 14:29
  like that? Is there a backup copy of the eyeball
• 14:31
  where you could sort of reformat the eyeball structure?
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: You should come work in my lab. at least come visit.
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: I would love to visit.
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: And the reason I say that is that's the exact
• 14:40
  question that we're asking. Hmm. We showed that even if
• 14:44
  you injure, say a nerve, uh, whether it's peripheral on,
• 14:48
  in your arm or in your brain or in the eye,
• 14:51
  like the optic nerve, we can regrow those back to
• 14:55
  where they were. And actually in 2020 on the cover
• 14:57
  of nature magazine, there was the picture of an eye.
• 15:01
  And in the, in the paper we published, you could
• 15:03
  see the nerves regrowing back. Um, And so we think
• 15:07
  that injury is also treatable. Actually, a group in China
• 15:11
  just took our technology, this OSK stuff, put it into
• 15:14
  mice that had bad joints, and it regrew their muscle
• 15:17
  and their bone back to normal.
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: Whoa.
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: And so we're also looking at treating injury, back injury, joints, osteoarthritis.
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: That would be phenomenal because there are so many people
• 15:31
  that are suffering from arthritis and so many. I know
• 15:34
  so many people with injuries, like martial arts injuries. I
• 15:37
  have one. My left knee is fucked up. It's annoying.
• 15:40
  I keep it together. I've got it like– I maintain it,
• 15:45
  but it's always an issue. I have to stay on it.
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: And there's little you can do, like stem cells, a
• 15:49
  little bit of relief.
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: Stem cells give you relief, but not– once you're dealing
• 15:55
  with cartilage damage and you're dealing with the– I had
• 15:58
  a meniscus surgery where they took out a piece of
• 16:00
  my meniscus. And I had my ACL reconstructed on that
• 16:03
  knee as well. So it's just an issue. But it
• 16:06
  works pretty good for like what it should be. Like
• 16:10
  if we were living in the 1930s, I'd be a cripple.
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: Hang in there because we're going to be in a
• 16:15
  world where we can rebuild parts of the body, including joints.
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: The problem with that is like how does that apply
• 16:21
  to athletics? We're going to have fucking super soldiers in
• 16:25
  every sport. There's going to be people in every sport
• 16:27
  that could. Do what Michael Jordan did and like leap
• 16:30
  from halfway across the basketball court and dunk.
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: That's probably coming and there may be DNA tests to
• 16:36
  see if you've got these OSK genes inserted. And we're
• 16:40
  working on it, working on a drink and a pill.
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: As well for– A drink and a pill?
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean we're now eight years ahead of what
• 16:46
  the public realizes.
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: Really?
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: In my lab at Harvard, yeah.
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: A drink and a pill and what's a drink and
• 16:51
  a pill going to do?
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: Well, right now it's in mice so we've still got
• 16:55
  a ways to go. But when we give– the drink
• 16:58
  to mice, they get rejuvenated.
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: You just give it to 80 year olds. If you're
• 17:03
  on the way out, like let's fucking go. Like give
• 17:05
  it a chance.
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: This is what the FDA is for. They forbid that.
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah. That's what we need to get rid of them.
• 17:10
  Get rid of the FDA and just give it to
• 17:12
  old people. If I was an old guy and I
• 17:15
  was like hanging in there and I'm walking around with a,
• 17:19
  and you're like, look, this drink and a pill might
• 17:22
  kill you or you might be like a 30 year
• 17:24
  old again. I'm like, let's fucking go.
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: Well, I get emails a lot. I've had to take
• 17:29
  my emails off public access because there's a lot of
• 17:32
  people that want this.
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: Oh, I'm sure.
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: There was one guy that wouldn't leave the building until
• 17:37
  he saw me. So it's getting to that point.
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a little bit of that, right? People get
• 17:42
  a little selfish like it's all about them.
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and actually the U.S. government blocked an investment from
• 17:47
  a foreign country into one of my companies because they
• 17:50
  were afraid of super soldiers.
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: Ooh, what country?
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: Well, they were afraid of technology getting out. Which country?
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: Could I guess? Sure.
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: China. It wasn't.
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: Was it?
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: No, no.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: Russia?
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: It was somewhere in between here and China. Oh, well,
• 18:07
  that's pretty vague. It's a little sensitive. But, yeah, the U.S.
• 18:12
  government does have the ability to block foreign investment, and
• 18:15
  they did in this case. $ 160 million they blocked.
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: That was a painful episode.
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: So they were worried that people were going to actually
• 18:22
  engineer super soldiers, right? This episode is brought to you
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• 19:08
  Do you know about the Russian experiments that they did
• 19:12
  during World War II where they were trying to come
• 19:14
  up with a chimpanzee-human hybrid?
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: Tell us.
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: Yes. So it's very difficult obviously to get information out
• 19:23
  of the former Soviet Union as to what their top
• 19:25
  secret programs were. But there seems to be an indication
• 19:28
  that there was actual real research to try to– because
• 19:32
  obviously Russia lost an incredible amount of people in World
• 19:36
  War II. I mean tens of millions of soldiers died
• 19:40
  in World War II from Russia. And I think they said,
• 19:44
  wouldn't it be great if it wasn't people? And so
• 19:47
  they were doing experiments with hybridization. And they were trying
• 19:51
  to combine human beings and chimpanzees to create a, you know,
• 19:56
  a stable of super soldiers that were like some hybrid hominin.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a scientist in New York who does this
• 20:04
  for a living.
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: What? He does that for a living?
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: Well, he's not creating them, but I've seen... I was
• 20:09
  on stage with him. He made hybrid embryos. They didn't
• 20:14
  reach birth rate.
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: See, the thing is if that guy is doing that
• 20:16
  and he's ethical and he lives in America and we
• 20:18
  have rules and regulations and the FDA and all that
• 20:20
  good stuff, what the fuck is going on in other
• 20:23
  countries where they don't have that? Right, right.
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: Well, there's genetic engineering of humans already and certainly selection.
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: Even parents today in the US can– if they have
• 20:32
  the money, they can select.
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: Well, people select.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: Even based on intelligence.
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: People select for hotness. They select for tallness. They select
• 20:39
  for intelligence.
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: It's like Gattaca.
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: It's a great movie if you haven't seen it.
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: It is a great movie. Yeah. So see if you
• 20:46
  could find that Russian hybridization program. It never happened, I
• 20:51
  don't think. I don't think they did it. But there's
• 20:55
  actually a guy who was also involved in a gigantic
• 20:59
  fertility scam. Not a scam per se, but he was
• 21:03
  a doctor. that was supposed to be doing fertility treatments
• 21:07
  with women. Like, you know, like if you went with
• 21:10
  your wife to a doctor and said, hey, we're having
• 21:12
  a hard time getting pregnant. And well, David, I just
• 21:15
  need some of your sperm and I'll take your wife's egg.
• 21:18
  We'll make you a nice baby. And he was using
• 21:19
  his sperm on everybody, on everybody. Everybody gets mine.
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: One of my kids partners is from someone in the
• 21:28
  US who had hundreds of babies.
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: Dude, there is a ton of those guys. As I
• 21:32
  was doing research for this, I started looking up all
• 21:35
  these stories and I said, wait, this is a different story?
• 21:37
  The same thing? There's been a ton of these doctors
• 21:40
  from fertility clinics that use their own sperm. Just insane.
• 21:43
  But this one doctor that did that also claimed that
• 21:47
  he impregnated an orangutan. Yeah. Like how? How did you
• 21:51
  do that? Soviet doctor Joseph Stalin. Dictator. Dictator. Obviously. Wanted
• 21:59
  to rebuild the Red Army in the mid-1920s. With Planet
• 22:02
  of the Apes-style troops by crossing humans with apes, Stalin
• 22:05
  is said to have told Ivanov, I want a new,
• 22:07
  invincible human being, insensitive to pain, resistant and indifferent about
• 22:11
  the quality of the food they ate. Which is crazy.
• 22:15
  The only legitimate source of the claim comes from a
• 22:17
  2002 paper in the academic journal Science in Context. by
• 22:21
  the Russian historian of science, uh, Kirill Rassianov. Rassianov's, uh,
• 22:29
  study follows the ill-fated attempt by the Russian psychologist or
• 22:32
  physiologist rather, uh, Ooh, that was that word. Ilya Ivanov
• 22:36
  to crossbreed humans with anthropoid apes. His research offers an
• 22:41
  important warning about the ethical abuses. Did you do it?
• 22:45
  What happened? Um, The alleged quote from Stalin is not
• 22:49
  found in the paper and there's no evidence of Stalin
• 22:51
  ever made such a statement. Yeah. I don't know. However,
• 22:59
  why the Soviets would find such a human chimp hybridization
• 23:03
  program in the first place and what could be learned
• 23:05
  from this sordid tale of ethical misconduct is an important
• 23:08
  topic and fascinating in its own right. That's an interesting
• 23:12
  way of phrasing it, like a sordid tale of ethical misconduct.
• 23:16
  However– If you are going to go to war, would
• 23:20
  you rather have human-made orcs fight for us or Johnny Robinson,
• 23:30
  who grew up down the street, who's a nice kid,
• 23:32
  who just really wanted money for college, and so he
• 23:35
  signed up for military service, and you're going to fly
• 23:38
  him over to fight this war that maybe he doesn't
• 23:41
  need to die in when you can have these monsters
• 23:44
  that you made in a lab fight?
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: Yep, and the average ape can kill a human with
• 23:48
  one punch. Easy. So they're much stronger than we realize.
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: That's what I'm talking about. Let's go.
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: Well, we're in the process of building, you know, anthropoid
• 23:56
  robots that I think will be recruited to the army.
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah. That's going to be weird. Like our robots beat
• 24:01
  your robots. So give us your oil. How's that going
• 24:04
  to work?
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: And if we all have one at home, what stops
• 24:06
  the government recruiting them all?
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: Right. And also what's the real problem is going to be?
• 24:11
  We both know the real problem is going to be
• 24:13
  sex robots.
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: Is it a problem?
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: It's going to be a problem for people that don't
• 24:19
  have a sex robot. People won't leave home. It's going
• 24:21
  to be a problem with people that want a regular person,
• 24:23
  and there's none available because everybody's got a sex robot.
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it comes with fewer strings attached.
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: It also comes with the same problems that AI comes with, right,
• 24:32
  where AI says, David, you're amazing. Everything you do is wonderful.
• 24:36
  You should be so proud of yourself. I love that.
• 24:39
  No real– we would all love that. But that's not healthy, right?
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: You're so big.
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: This is one of the reasons why actual real relationships
• 24:49
  between human beings are good. It's because you do things
• 24:51
  that are annoying. You don't realize they're annoying. And then
• 24:53
  your wife or your husband or whatever it is tells you, hey,
• 24:57
  you're fucking annoying. And you're like, I'm sorry. I'll– I'll
• 25:01
  fix that. I didn't mean to. I didn't. That's not
• 25:03
  what I was trying to do. I was in my
• 25:05
  own head. I was thinking about myself. You're right. I
• 25:06
  was selfish. You get better. It's like how people grow.
• 25:10
  Like relationships are important to help people grow. Not with AI.
• 25:13
  Like you can fart in my face any day, David.
• 25:16
  I don't mind at all. Your farts are amazing.
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: I know the problem is they're going to be way
• 25:21
  smarter than us too.
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: I don't know how people are going to say, go
• 25:24
  stack the dishwasher to one of these robots. They're smarter
• 25:27
  than all humans combined.
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but they're not going to mind stacking. They're smart
• 25:30
  enough to– They're going to.
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: Be bored out of hell and they're going to beat
• 25:32
  us up.
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: They don't care. They're not going to mind doing like
• 25:36
  menial tasks. But while you're doing it, you can go,
• 25:40
  explain to me quantum entanglement. So while they're filling up
• 25:47
  the dishwasher– They're going to go F you one day.
• 25:49
  Well– If you have a particle and the particles– Yeah.
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: I just invented a cure for aging. Right.
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: Well, look at what it's done with mathematics. Like just
• 25:59
  over the last couple weeks, they've solved more than 50
• 26:04
  program or 50 mathematical equations that they have struggled for
• 26:08
  decade upon decade to try to solve. And AI is like, oh,
• 26:12
  I got it. Yeah.
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: Well, biology is a little bit more complicated, but already
• 26:16
  AI is doing a lot of the science that we
• 26:18
  used to do in my lab. In fact, what we
• 26:21
  just recently did in a couple of months would have
• 26:23
  taken about 160 years to complete.
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: What?
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: And it's only getting faster. Eventually someone can make a
• 26:28
  drug on their phone.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: Say that again.
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: Two months instead of 160 years.
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: Well, what exactly was it that you had to do?
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: Oh, so this drink and the pill that we're looking for,
• 26:39
  that's not easy. So we have some candidate molecules. We
• 26:42
  have a cocktail that works.
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: Are you taking this stuff? Not yet. You're thinking about it? Yeah.
• 26:50
  No one could stop you.
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: Well, that is true. That is true. But it would
• 26:54
  be a bad look if I died. So maybe I
• 26:56
  wouldn't do it. What? You're not going to die. Come on.
• 26:58
  I don't think so. We've done a lot of safety
• 27:00
  tests and it looks really safe. But I'm not going
• 27:03
  to publicly do anything against the law.
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: Of course.
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: It would be in private, of course.
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: Of course. Not publicly.
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: I'm at a stage where I have to be a
• 27:11
  good boy because I've got the world watching.
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: A lot is at stake.
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: Yes. A lot is at stake.
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: And if this trial– If there's any issues, it's not good.
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: You've got to dot your I's and cross your T's
• 27:23
  and follow every– I understand that. But please explain again
• 27:26
  because I'm being rude. I interrupted you. When you're telling
• 27:29
  me that in two months it did something that would
• 27:31
  have required 160 years of work, like what do you
• 27:34
  exactly mean by that?
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: And now it would probably be impossible in thousands of
• 27:41
  years because what we do is we're looking for molecules,
• 27:44
  a single molecule that can replace this cocktail. So you
• 27:47
  need a molecule to do three or four activities in
• 27:50
  the cell. Finding one activity is what pharmaceutical companies do.
• 27:53
  It takes hundreds of millions, if not billions, to make
• 27:57
  a drug. We know that, right? My little lab of
• 28:00
  20 people and students, young kids, are trying to make
• 28:05
  one drug do three or four different things. That's beyond
• 28:10
  the reach of pharmaceutical experience at least five years ago.
• 28:14
  So what we do is we've teamed up with a
• 28:15
  group at St. Jude's Hospital where they can take– it
• 28:18
  was $ 10 billion. Now it's a trillion theoretical and also
• 28:23
  drug– known drugs. With my hands, I'm showing a big funnel.
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: You're really good at podcasts. You're like helping out the
• 28:31
  audio people and everything. I love it.
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: I relaunched my podcast. That's why.
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's why. Yeah.
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: Lifespan, David Sinclair. Shameless plug. So this funnel– is full
• 28:42
  of a trillion molecules and we have to come down
• 28:44
  to one. How do we do that? Well, we don't
• 28:46
  look for a trillion molecules at the bench. That would
• 28:48
  take 160 or thousands of years with the case of
• 28:51
  a trillion molecules, even with robots, even with a lot
• 28:54
  of graduate students. So we do it inside the computer.
• 28:58
  We just use a lot of compute and we dock
• 29:01
  each of these molecules against the enzymes that we now
• 29:04
  know how they work, thanks to Google DeepMind solved the
• 29:08
  problem of how do all our proteins look, 20,000 of them.
• 29:12
  And there's a lot of compute. But out the other end,
• 29:14
  a couple of months later, we have 200 molecules that
• 29:21
  we can now test in the lab within a few weeks. Actually,
• 29:25
  next week, we're testing these 200 against human cells. And
• 29:29
  we've also got AI helping us to tell us if
• 29:32
  the human cells go from 92 years old back to 20.
• 29:35
  We can tell that just by looking at them, thanks
• 29:38
  to the AI.
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: Is there a way to stop that? from turning you
• 29:40
  into a baby? Because that's what I would worry about.
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: Yes. I don't want to be a baby again. Right.
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: Some people are already there.
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: I'd like to cut it off at like– I was
• 29:49
  pretty good at 25.
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: I'm going to get attacked for saying this, but that
• 29:53
  is what we do in the lab. We take 92-year-old
• 29:56
  cells and they stop at 20-something. Wow.
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: Why would you get attacked for that?
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: Because on the internet, people take a clip and they say,
• 30:04
  Sinclair says we can all go back to being 20 again.
• 30:07
  You suffer from this too, right? They take a clip
• 30:09
  and it's out of context. And I'm just saying cells
• 30:13
  from humans, skin cells, we take them back to 25.
• 30:16
  All my students can do this. In fact, if you
• 30:18
  had these little genes, OSK, in your garage, you could
• 30:21
  do this experiment. It's not hard at all to reverse aging.
• 30:24
  The question is, how do you safely make it a drug?
• 30:26
  And that's been the hard part over the last 10 years.
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: So how would it be able to regulate this reduction
• 30:36
  or reversal of aging and stop it at 20-something years old?
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: Well, that's what took so long. It wasn't obvious that
• 30:45
  these three Yamanaka genes called OSK were the right cocktail.
• 30:50
  My student, who I mentioned, Won Chang, he was struggling.
• 30:53
  He was trying a lot of different genes. Most of
• 30:56
  them from embryos because we know embryos have to do
• 30:59
  a reset in the first week of life. Otherwise, they
• 31:01
  stay the age of the parents. And he found that
• 31:07
  leaving out one of the Aminaka genes was the trick.
• 31:09
  And now that we know it, it's super easy. But
• 31:11
  in those days, he was ready to quit.
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: How did he find that out?
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: Well, he tried lots of different combinations, hundreds in human cells.
• 31:18
  And you look at the cells to see if they
• 31:19
  get younger. And then we can measure molecularly that they
• 31:22
  get younger.
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: And are you measuring them by the length of their telomeres? Yeah.
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: Partly, but actually a better measure is the chemicals that
• 31:31
  are added and subtracted off DNA itself called methyls. And
• 31:35
  it's just a carbon molecule with three hydrogens. Very simple molecule.
• 31:40
  But what cells do is they use these methyls to
• 31:43
  tag genes to be switched off. So when we're growing
• 31:47
  as an embryo, the cells that want to become neurons
• 31:50
  will shut off all these other unwanted genes like liver
• 31:53
  genes and skin genes. And the ones that don't get
• 31:56
  this methyl chemical stay on for our life. And that's
• 31:59
  how nerve cells develop and stay healthy. But what happens
• 32:02
  during aging– a friend of mine, Steve Horvath, discovered that
• 32:06
  you can use this as a clock. These chemicals, they
• 32:09
  change over time. And we found that that happens largely
• 32:12
  due to DNA damage going in the sun, these kind
• 32:15
  of things. We could use this to rapidly age a mouse,
• 32:19
  which we published in 2023.
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: Oh, so like maybe like some nefarious state actor, like
• 32:24
  some– Russian spy could, like, inject something in your coffee
• 32:28
  and you would turn 99 overnight?
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: We know how to do that.
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: Whoa.
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: That's the dark side of this.
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: It is.
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: You could spike your husband's drink. Fuck that dude. And
• 32:38
  turn him into an old man. Hey, what did you do? Yeah.
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: Someone tweeted the other day, if a 92-year-old could be
• 32:47
  25 again, would you have sex with them?
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: And my response was– Imagine how much they know.
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: But would they have sex with you?
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: Right. That's the better question.
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: That's the question. They'd be looking for another 20-year-old.
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: Right. So anyway, how do we do it? We can
• 33:01
  measure those chemicals and determine how old a cell is
• 33:05
  or a human. I could take your skin cells from
• 33:07
  your mouth or your blood.
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: And tell you how old you are. I wonder if
• 33:09
  people would be so disturbed by like old rich guys
• 33:12
  dating young women if that was the case. You couldn't
• 33:16
  tell if they looked young. Because people get very mad
• 33:19
  at that. You ever notice? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You see
• 33:22
  some real old decrepit dude with a hot young wife
• 33:24
  and people are like, God damn it. They get really mad. Right.
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: Right now the best way to do that is to
• 33:30
  have a big bank account, but eventually you'll actually.
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: Look young again. Right, but people still get grossed out.
• 33:34
  I wonder if they would get grossed out if he
• 33:36
  looked 20. They'd be like, he's praying. He has so
• 33:39
  much more years of knowledge and information. It's not fair.
• 33:41
  I don't care if he looks 20. That's a 99-year-old man.
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: That day will come. That day will come where you
• 33:48
  will not be able to tell how old somebody is
• 33:49
  by looking at them. You'll have to do a test
• 33:52
  for these genes. Wow.
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: I wonder if people still lie about their age if
• 33:55
  that's the case. I wonder if no one will care.
• 33:58
  Like you would probably lie the other way. Like I'm 80.
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: It's right.
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: Tom's over there telling everybody he's 80.
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: That's right. Well, when we live for hundreds of years,
• 34:08
  people will do that. They'll be proud of their age.
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: Do you know anything about ancient civilizations and some of
• 34:15
  the weirdness of the records of like ancient Sumer?
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: Well, only really what I've learned from listening to you.
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: Well, it's– there's– what's really weird is the ancient king's
• 34:28
  lists because– so– OK. The theory, the theory among these
• 34:36
  alternative archaeologist types is that there was a very advanced
• 34:41
  civilization that existed on Earth tens of thousands of years
• 34:44
  ago and we're probably wiped out by comet impact. And
• 34:49
  what we have today is a rebuild of civilization. There's
• 34:53
  not a linear progression from caveman to us and that
• 34:56
  at one point in time we had reached great heights.
• 34:58
  This explains the pyramids. This explains Machu Picchu, Sacsayhuaman, some
• 35:04
  megalithic structures that don't make any sense, the Trilithon stones
• 35:08
  in Baalbek Lemadon that are hundreds and hundreds of tons,
• 35:13
  that are massive, that are nine meters off the ground.
• 35:16
  No one understands exactly how they placed them. When you
• 35:20
  look at the Sumerian kings list, it gets very weird
• 35:25
  because there's kings that reigned for thousands of years. And
• 35:30
  then you have the flood. And then after the flood,
• 35:33
  the age of these people drops pretty dramatically. And the
• 35:38
  rains are– after a few hundred years become normal, become
• 35:42
  like a normal person, like 50 years, 30 years, like that.
• 35:45
  But thousands of years before. And then people are looking
• 35:49
  at it like, OK, is this just myth? Is this
• 35:52
  poor record keeping? Do they have just these hyperbolic– elevated
• 35:57
  stories about these kings. They were so amazing. They reigned
• 36:00
  for 30,000 years. Or had they achieved, not just in building,
• 36:08
  because in building, we know they'd achieve incredibly complex structure,
• 36:12
  like the pyramid, for instance, like they had insane engineering
• 36:16
  somehow or another, the ability to move these 500 ton
• 36:20
  stones from hundreds of miles away. Like, how did they
• 36:23
  do this? We don't really know, but we know that
• 36:25
  they did it. Did they also have the kind of
• 36:30
  technology that you're talking about right now? Because if it's
• 36:33
  possible today– and if that is– I mean it makes
• 36:37
  it very difficult because it goes against what you would
• 36:39
  call like the modern narrative that they're teaching in universities
• 36:44
  in terms of the timeline of human history. But if
• 36:46
  that changes and we have undeniable evidence, well, it looks
• 36:50
  like these people were far more advanced than we thought
• 36:53
  and there probably was some sort of a reset of civilization.
• 36:56
  What else had they accomplished and had they gotten involved
• 36:59
  in genetic engineering? Had they figured out a way to
• 37:02
  extend lifespan? And if they did, imagine all the work
• 37:07
  that you've accomplished in your– you're 57 now? About to
• 37:11
  be 57? You look great by the way. You really do.
• 37:14
  Look at your hair. It's so dark. It's incredible.
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: People speculate it's all fake but it's actually– it's not.
• 37:19
  But anyway, happy birthday to you.
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: Thank you very much.
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: I don't look as good as you though.
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: Yes, you do. Physically, you're way better than me.
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: That's different though. My face looks older. You look very
• 37:33
  young for your age. You know why? Why?
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: Because I've spent all my time in a lab and
• 37:36
  I haven't gone outdoors for a while.
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: I'm sure that helps. That does help. But my point is,
• 37:41
  imagine if you had 500 years to do research, not
• 37:48
  just 57 years. Imagine if you could continue learning and
• 37:53
  growing and they did develop some sort of a life
• 37:57
  extension technology where you could not just be older but
• 38:00
  be healthier than you've ever been before and live for
• 38:03
  a thousand years, you would get so much done. I
• 38:07
  mean the exponential increase in technological innovation that we would
• 38:11
  have in this society would be absolutely mind-blowing.
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: Exactly, exactly, exactly. This is a really important point.
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: And that might be what these alternative history people think.
• 38:19
  That might be what had taken place tens of thousands
• 38:22
  of years ago.
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I'm a Harvard scientist, so I'm not going
• 38:25
  to say anything that isn't.
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: Of course. That's for me. Yes. That's where I live.
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: That's why I shut up. But you did make some
• 38:33
  really important points. One is that ancient civilizations have always
• 38:36
  been way more advanced than we think.
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: Dinosaurs are a lot more real than we make them look.
• 38:42
  We always get things wrong looking back in time and
• 38:44
  looking forward in time. But the other thing that you said,
• 38:47
  which is really important, is that if we do have
• 38:49
  extension of human lifespan like the Bible and these civilizations
• 38:52
  suggest– then how will you think about your life if
• 38:57
  being 100 is, you know, you're still in your prime?
• 39:01
  You do things very differently. Who would you marry? What
• 39:04
  career would you think about? You might have multiple lifetimes,
• 39:08
  multiple marriages, multiple families. And that will happen. It's not
• 39:12
  really a question of if anymore. It's like asking the
• 39:15
  Wright brothers, will we fly? Yeah, we built the glider.
• 39:18
  We're going to fly around. The question is, will we
• 39:20
  build a Concorde? Will we go to space? And I
• 39:22
  think that will happen.
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah. No, I think so too. I think– well, certainly
• 39:28
  one thing that we know is there's a giant difference
• 39:30
  between people who are 57 years old today versus 57
• 39:34
  years old in the 1930s. It's just a giant difference,
• 39:38
  a giant difference in your physical ability, your health.
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: We'd be old men.
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we would be old men. And what– I mean
• 39:45
  when I was a child, I thought of people– I'm
• 39:47
  almost 59. I'll be 59 in a week. I used
• 39:50
  to think of a 59-year-old as being basically dead. Like
• 39:56
  you're barely getting around. You're probably tired all the time.
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: Looking to retire soon.
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, looking to retire. You got no energy. I'm filled
• 40:04
  with energy. I'm constantly doing– how old is he?
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: 60.
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: That's what it says. Oh, no. I don't know if
• 40:10
  that's accurate. I bet that's accurate. They had no fucking vitamins.
• 40:14
  Nobody knew what the proper nutrients you should take were.
• 40:18
  Nobody knew the– What was really important in terms of
• 40:21
  like resistance training and sleep and red light therapy and
• 40:25
  all that jazz.
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: And they were doing all the bad stuff like heavy smoking, drinking,
• 40:29
  not sleeping a lot.
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: Yep, not sleeping a lot. And pesticides and all kinds
• 40:34
  of terrible shit. 60-year-old. What? That guy's 60? That's crazy.
• 40:38
  No way. I don't know, man. Come on. Shut up.
• 40:41
  That guy's fucking 28 years old. There's no way. That
• 40:44
  guy's 60? Is that real? I will have to follow up.
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: I doubt it. I doubt it. How about that guy
• 40:49
  that looks 50 and he says, everyone thinks I'm 18. Like, yeah, sure.
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: What's that?
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: There's a guy on Instagram, which I occasionally visit, and
• 40:58
  he obviously looks old. Like, he looks over 40.
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: Oh, he's a crazy person.
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: And he says... People think I look 18.
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: Oh.
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: Are you crazy?
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: Well, there's a lot of crazy people out there. Yeah. Well,
• 41:08
  that's body dysmorphia.
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: There must be.
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: Bodybuilders, they think they're tiny. A lot of people are crazy. Yeah.
• 41:14
  A lot of people have a distorted perception of what
• 41:16
  they look like. Yeah.
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: The plastic surgery industry is massive. It's just growing and growing.
• 41:21
  You can see it on the street, LA especially. But
• 41:25
  imagine a world where if I'm successful, you can take
• 41:29
  a pill. Your doctor could get it or eventually it's
• 41:31
  a cream. on your face and you literally get younger.
• 41:35
  We do this in mice already. The mice get younger.
• 41:38
  Is it going to work in humans? I think it's
• 41:39
  just a matter of time.
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: So in the mice, uh, experiments, what have you achieved?
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: Well, a lot, you know, I can reveal here, uh,
• 41:50
  some of it, uh, for the first time we, this,
• 41:53
  this pill that we give them to drink actually, cause
• 41:55
  they can't chew the mice within four weeks with this cocktail.
• 41:59
  It has three components, which are top secret, My lab
• 42:02
  is sworn to secrecy. After four weeks, we give it
• 42:05
  to them three days a week, Monday, Wednesday, Friday, weekends off.
• 42:10
  Within those four weeks, they get better physically, mentally. Excuse me.
• 42:16
  So we put them through tests.
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: Just in a couple of days?
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: No, three days a week for a month.
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: Oh, okay. I found this guy's Instagram. This is the guy?
• 42:23
  He went viral last year. He's being 59 years old. What?
• 42:28
  It seems so not real.
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: He looks like he's maybe 30.
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: Exactly. He might have just amazing genetics. Well, look at
• 42:36
  Yoel Romero. There are people that are freaks. He's from Singapore.
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: Wow. Twando, Kwando Tan. And he's 60 years old?
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's been gone... Without facelifts?
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. He certainly doesn't look like he's
• 42:51
  out of facelifts. Yeah, right. His skin is fucking incredible.
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah. But he's probably never been in the sun.
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: Except for this video. It could be a full AI
• 42:58
  account that's trolling everyone. I don't... No. That's possible, too. Like,
• 43:03
  look at that picture right there. Like, that looks a
• 43:04
  little AI-ish. Go back to that one again. Keep your
• 43:07
  pants on, Jamie. Relax, relax. That looks very AI, doesn't it?
• 43:12
  I'm just saying it could be. It's all. His 59th birthday.
• 43:17
  His whole thing is that he's young. 58 looks half
• 43:19
  his age. Wow. I mean.
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: This will be normal.
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this is 2024, so it's not. This has been
• 43:26
  going on for a while. Okay, so this is pre-AI. Yeah,
• 43:29
  if it's fake, then he would have been. called out now,
• 43:31
  I feel like.
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: So he might just be a genetic freak. Could be. Yep.
• 43:36
  Which is interesting, right? Like, do you guys study the different... Like,
• 43:39
  you know, unfortunately, certain people that have like pale people,
• 43:43
  for instance, with thin skin, they age hardcore. They go.
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: And there are those kids that get old in their teens.
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: We study that as well. Yeah.
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: That's weird. We're reversing that too. But yeah, we do
• 43:55
  study the genetics of aging.
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: That's the real... application for it where people are going
• 44:00
  to be excited about it. People that have that, what
• 44:01
  is it called? Progeria?
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: Progeria, exactly.
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: And so we have mice that have this same gene
• 44:06
  mutation and they get old really quickly and we're giving
• 44:09
  them the drink right now.
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: And so in the drink, you give it to them
• 44:13
  how often and for a month?
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: It's once a day, every other day, three days a
• 44:19
  week for a month. And yeah, in normal old mice,
• 44:24
  we see them fitter, stronger, better memory. They run around
• 44:27
  the cage.
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: In just a month.
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: It's amazing. We only did a month because it was
• 44:31
  Christmas holiday season. We didn't, we didn't want to go
• 44:34
  for longer, but, uh, it worked in four weeks. I'm shocked.
• 44:37
  Even these genes require six to eight weeks to work
• 44:40
  for revision, uh, recovery of vision.
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: And so this, this is working on a different pathway.
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: Well, here's the cool thing. We, we think it's working
• 44:50
  through the same mechanism, the reboot, the reinstallation of software. Um,
• 44:55
  the drink. Because there are genes called TETs. There are
• 44:58
  three of them in the body. And they do something...
• 45:01
  Spell that? T-E-T. Capital T-E-T. There's one, two, three. And
• 45:05
  these are genes that make enzymes that remove these methyls
• 45:09
  off the DNA. So they control the clock. And if
• 45:13
  we get rid of those genes, our system doesn't work.
• 45:18
  We cannot restore vision. And our pill doesn't work without
• 45:23
  removing and altering those chemicals. So In other words, it's
• 45:26
  not just because the chemicals make the cell healthier. It's
• 45:28
  actually resetting this clock on the DNA.
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: Whoa.
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: And that was the big deal. I said whoa when
• 45:35
  my student told me. And that's why I think it
• 45:38
  got the cover of Nature magazine, which is we're actually
• 45:41
  looking at the clock of life. And we've realized that
• 45:45
  this clock that goes around, this biological clock, isn't just
• 45:49
  a clock. When you move the hands of the clock,
• 45:52
  time goes backwards for the body. meaning the clock is aging,
• 45:58
  and aging is the clock. Wow.
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: What is it? You don't really know in terms of humans,
• 46:05
  but is there any indication that improves cognitive function in mice? Yes.
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: I can say without a doubt that other labs and
• 46:13
  ours have shown that when you reverse the age of
• 46:16
  the brain in a mouse, it gets better at learning.
• 46:19
  And we even have some hints, and we're going to
• 46:22
  publish this, that lost memories come back.
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: Whoa.
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: So Alzheimer's patients, I believe, still have memories. They just
• 46:30
  cannot access them. And that one day we can reverse
• 46:33
  Alzheimer's disease by making the brain young. And using that approach,
• 46:37
  making the whole body young, we can cure diseases that
• 46:41
  are currently incurable.
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: Holy shit.
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: Well, young people don't get Alzheimer's. Why? Because the body
• 46:48
  can tackle the problem. The young body can heal itself.
• 46:52
  So my approach is make the body young. It will
• 46:54
  heal itself in every way.
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: Well, do you have children?
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: Three.
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah. One of the things that's just phenomenal is watching
• 47:02
  them heal. Yeah. I'm like it is so– it's so
• 47:08
  wild but also you envy them so much because they
• 47:10
  get cut and it's like two days later. Like where's
• 47:13
  your cut? It's fucking gone? Like that's crazy. My daughter
• 47:17
  had a cutter. She fell and knocked her head and
• 47:20
  she had this like dark spot on her head like
• 47:22
  where she got injured. It was like four or five days.
• 47:26
  It was gone. And I was like, that fucking thing
• 47:27
  would be with me for four months. Yeah.
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: And the good thing is if we rub our cocktail
• 47:32
  on the skin of the mice, they heal like they're
• 47:34
  young again.
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: Oh, so that would be like a great application for
• 47:37
  ladies who want the beauty treatment on the face, right?
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: That's where we're headed.
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: Whoa.
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And we're working on hair. We can grow human
• 47:45
  hair on mice now.
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: Really?
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: That took a few years. And now we can check
• 47:49
  if we can regrow hair and make it dark again.
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: You can grow human hair on mice.
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I'm not allowed to– actually, I did post it
• 47:56
  on Instagram and the university said get that down. But
• 48:00
  it exists. We grow it from stem cells, from human
• 48:03
  stem cells. We make little balls of hair. It takes
• 48:06
  a few months. We open up the ball to make
• 48:08
  a flat piece of skin, human skin, and we put
• 48:11
  that in the back of a mouse that can accept
• 48:14
  human skin. And then you get black tufts of hair
• 48:17
  from humans in a mouse.
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: Could you get any kind of hair? Like could I
• 48:19
  get an afro? I just want to get one that
• 48:20
  pisses people off. I would love an afro, like a
• 48:23
  Colin Kaepernick type, just a big crazy one.
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we can grow hair. We can do that. We're
• 48:29
  one of the few labs that can grow this hair.
• 48:31
  So I thought about doing that for a company, but
• 48:33
  I think hair transplants would just be easier.
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: Oh, right. So you would grow hair in a lab
• 48:38
  and then transplant those hairs?
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: We can do that, yeah.
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: Oh, well, that's the thing because I got a hair transplant.
• 48:43
  But the way I describe it, it's like taking people
• 48:48
  that are really healthy and moving them into a town
• 48:51
  where everyone's dying. Because, like, you're taking hair from back
• 48:55
  here where it's going to stay and you're putting it
• 48:57
  up here where it's all falling out.
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: Oh, it didn't thrive?
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: What's that?
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: It doesn't thrive if you move it?
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: Oh, it thrives, but everybody else dies.
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: Oh, shit.
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: You know, you can only take so much from the
• 49:07
  back of your head and move it to the top
• 49:09
  of your head. That's why a lot of guys with
• 49:10
  hair transplants look goofy because you have, like, this strong
• 49:13
  hairline in the front and it goes back like that
• 49:16
  and then everything else looks like chaos.
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: Oh, that sucks. You know what I take? for my hair?
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: What do you take?
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: Among other things. Viagra.
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: Viagra? Yeah, actually.
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: I shouldn't say the brand name.
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: That's why I take it for my hair.
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: That's what I tell everybody. That is true. It's low dose,
• 49:33
  7 milligrams a day of Tadalafil. And it's good for
• 49:37
  a lot of things.
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: I know it's good for endurance. Yeah. Yeah, because I
• 49:41
  know athletes who take it for endurance, they probably take
• 49:45
  it to fuck too. Let's not kid ourselves.
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: Well, it's a nice benefit. When a paper just came
• 49:53
  out about its role in preventing cancer, I tweeted what's
• 49:57
  not to love. People love that tweet. But the point
• 50:01
  is actually last week they found that these drugs in
• 50:05
  mice and seemingly in people who take these drugs are
• 50:08
  actually resistant. certain types of cancer is like head and
• 50:11
  neck cancer.
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: Interesting.
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: So they're turning out to.
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: Be really important. Because it improves blood flow?
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: Well, two reasons that are not related to blood flow,
• 50:19
  but they're related to what's called nitric oxide signaling, which
• 50:22
  is what helps dilate blood vessels in all your body,
• 50:24
  including your penis. The other two mechanisms, one showed that
• 50:29
  tadalafil is good for exposing the tumor to the immune system.
• 50:34
  There are certain cells called MDSCs that protect the tumor
• 50:39
  from getting attacked and the drug stops that. So now
• 50:43
  the tumors shrink in mice and seemingly in people, in tumors.
• 50:48
  And then the second mechanism is really interesting. It seems to,
• 50:51
  this was Sedanafil, so this is now Viagra, found that
• 50:55
  the cancer is, a lot of cancers thrive on cholesterol
• 51:00
  and this blocks the ability of cancer cells to use cholesterol.
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: I thought they thrived on glucose.
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: That too, exactly. So you want to be in ketosis
• 51:08
  if you've got The tumor in general. So fasting is good.
• 51:13
  But now it looks like these ED drugs might be
• 51:16
  good for it as well.
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: Fascinating. And wasn't– I think Viagra was a– it was
• 51:25
  an accident, right? Wasn't it a blood pressure medication?
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: It's a good story. It was for angina, right? It
• 51:30
  was for your heart. But the story goes that women
• 51:34
  especially and the men didn't want to give up the
• 51:37
  drugs that they had left over. It was amazing. I
• 51:41
  think it was 75% had a positive reaction for erections
• 51:45
  and without it, 22. So it's very clear that it
• 51:49
  was working.
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: Interesting. And so how does it help hair?
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: Well, we don't know for sure, but there's a lot
• 51:57
  of evidence that part of the reason hair dies out
• 52:00
  and stops growing is a lack of blood flow. And
• 52:03
  the minoxidil that people put on their hair helps with that.
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: Right. Interesting. And then DHT inhibitors. Yes.
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: Exactly.
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: Also help.
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: That B-dutesteride people can take orally.
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: The problem with that is my friend had severe depression
• 52:18
  when he took that. Yeah. It really fucked him up.
• 52:22
  And he didn't realize because he didn't understand that that
• 52:25
  was– he was like, what is wrong with me? And
• 52:27
  he was getting suicidal. And then he got off of
• 52:30
  it and it just went away. And he's like, oh,
• 52:31
  my God, I can't believe that. This episode is sponsored
• 52:34
  by BetterHelp. You've probably heard about BetterHelp before, but maybe
• 52:39
  you haven't heard from those who have actually used BetterHelp.
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  That feedback can tell you everything you need to know.
• 52:46
  Go to betterhelp.com slash reviews and check out the feedback
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  It's easy to see why. To get started, all you
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  slash J-R-E. That's BetterHelp.com slash J-R-E. Yeah.
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm taking it for a number of reasons, including
• 53:25
  my hair and my prostate, to see if I can
• 53:28
  keep it from growing. but fortunately I haven't had that
• 53:31
  side effect.
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: It depends, right? It varies biologically depending on the person.
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's important when either of us says that drug's good,
• 53:38
  that drug's bad. People realize that you have to test
• 53:42
  it with doctor supervision.
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that was where I was going to get to.
• 53:47
  Because different medications have different reactions or different people's reactions
• 53:51
  to medications, they vary quite wildly. So before you make
• 53:56
  this public, Like how do you determine whether or not
• 54:01
  this is going to be safe for a wide variety
• 54:04
  of people to reverse aging?
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: Oh, my drug, our drug that we're making. Well, we
• 54:10
  will test it on a lot of people before it
• 54:13
  goes out into the wide world.
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: And you've started testing it on people so far? Yeah.
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: There are people right now who have this– these genes
• 54:20
  in their eye.
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: And how's it going?
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: I'm not allowed to say.
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: Can you wink twice if it's great? No.
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: I would say that everything's on target.
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: Okay. That's good to hear.
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: Nothing bad to report.
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: Nothing bad to report.
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: I think those might be the words I'm allowed to say.
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: And is that the only clinical trials you've used with
• 54:40
  any of these applications for humans?
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: So far, that was the first. Glaucoma and also sudden blindness.
• 54:46
  It's called Nyon, which is now twice as more prevalent
• 54:50
  because of the GLP-1 drugs.
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: Really?
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: It's not well known. Obviously, companies don't want to Talk
• 54:57
  about it. But yes, sudden blindness has doubled seemingly because
• 55:02
  of these meds.
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: Holy shit. Sudden blindness has doubled because of GLP-1s?
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: Due to nion, which is like a stroke in your eye.
• 55:12
  And then your other eye can go, which is pretty scary.
• 55:15
  And there's nothing you can do about it. Hopefully our
• 55:17
  drug does work for those people.
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: And obviously correlation does not equal causation, but it seems
• 55:26
  to be.
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah. There's a scientist at Harvard. You could look up
• 55:30
  his work, Joe Rizzo. It looks like it's repeatable across
• 55:34
  the planet. Wow.
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: That's terrible because there's so many people out there that
• 55:39
  are just telling everyone they should get on GLP-1s. I've
• 55:42
  seen that by online people, like online podcasters saying everyone
• 55:47
  should get on GLP-1s. It's groundbreaking technology. This is amazing.
• 55:51
  It's going to transform society. I'm like, We just started
• 55:55
  taking these. What the fuck are you saying?
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah. It's not risk-free. Same with ED drugs.
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: Here it goes. Recent studies suggest that a potential rare
• 56:03
  link between GLP-1 receptor agonist medication such as Ozempic, Wagovi, blah, blah, blah,
• 56:10
  and a condition called non-arteritic anterior– what's that word? Ischemic? Ischemic.
• 56:17
  Ischemic optic neuropathy. An eye stroke can cause sudden painless
• 56:23
  loss of vision– Well, very low is like– What does
• 56:25
  that mean? More than 10,000 people. One in 10,000? Yeah. Yeah,
• 56:26
  that's– No, total of 10,000. Oh, total of 10,000 so far.
• 56:28
  How many people are taking this stuff? I think it's
• 56:29
  pretty– the drugs were 68.6 times more likely to develop
• 56:50
  this and eight times more likely to develop diabetic. What
• 56:54
  is that? We only got the blurb. Oh my God. Then. Wow. Yeah, man,
• 57:08
  these things are just, they're just rolling out. And the
• 57:11
  people that are like super enthusiastic and also, uh, They
• 57:15
  have some sort of a financial interest in promoting these things,
• 57:18
  which oftentimes does seem to be the case with a
• 57:20
  lot of these people. They have either stock in these
• 57:22
  companies or some sort of a stake in them. Yeah,
• 57:26
  it's true.
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: I will say to counter that, that the GLP-1 drugs
• 57:30
  have probably saved millions of lives already and they're pretty common.
• 57:33
  I think 10 percent of people are trying them and
• 57:35
  25 percent want to.
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean they don't work for everybody. I have
• 57:38
  a good friend of mine that had a terrible reaction
• 57:40
  from it and he was hospitalized. Oh, no. Yeah. I
• 57:43
  know other people where it's completely transformed their life and
• 57:46
  they've lost a ton of weight, particularly people that just–
• 57:50
  for whatever reason, the food addiction was so incredibly strong
• 57:53
  that whatever– their constitution, the way they're designed, the way
• 57:58
  they're built, the way they've evolved as a human being,
• 58:01
  they weren't capable of overcoming it. They take the GLP-1s
• 58:05
  and then they sort of start getting moving. And then
• 58:08
  they lose all the weight. They start feeling better. They
• 58:10
  start making a lot of other positive changes. You get
• 58:13
  that momentum, which I always talk about, which is one
• 58:16
  of the most important things for transforming your life. Everyone
• 58:19
  wants to talk about discipline. I think discipline is the primary.
• 58:22
  That's the main engine. But one of the things that
• 58:25
  comes along with any kind of an exercise program or
• 58:28
  a changing your life program, where you start getting positive results,
• 58:32
  is momentum. And momentum is absolutely huge.
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: Because then you start feeling.
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: That's so important.
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: This is good. So I think GLP-1s are fantastic for
• 58:40
  getting people going.
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: Yes. Everybody should hear this. It's really important. I'll give
• 58:44
  you my example. It's a classic case. I couldn't fast
• 58:49
  for more than about a day. I wanted to do more.
• 58:53
  I know that three days fasting is good. A week
• 58:54
  can be even better. But I couldn't do it. I
• 58:57
  don't have a lot of willpower when it comes to
• 58:58
  this kind of stuff. I tried a JLP1 receptor agonist,
• 59:02
  I gave it, and it was easy. I didn't even
• 59:05
  feel like I needed to snack at night, which is
• 59:07
  one of the things that I and many people suffer from.
• 59:09
  But the fact that I could do it, I went
• 59:12
  off the drug. I didn't need it. But now I
• 59:15
  can fast for– I went for two weeks a couple
• 59:18
  of months ago. It's easy now. Now that I know
• 59:21
  that I can do it mentally, it's not hard at all.
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: The momentum.
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: Exactly. I know what's possible.
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. That's fascinating. Are you still on a plant-based diet? Mostly. Yeah.
• 59:36
  I just had a conversation with a friend of mine
• 59:39
  about this. I don't know how much of the information
• 59:41
  that he was telling me was totally accurate. But what
• 59:43
  he was saying was that he was told before he
• 59:48
  did fasting that one of the best– because he's a runner.
• 59:52
  He said one of the best ways to get into
• 59:54
  fasting is to get your body into ketosis first. He
• 59:59
  said– and what he thinks is that a carnivore-based diet
• 1:00:03
  and what he was told was a good way. If
• 1:00:05
  you could do that for a few weeks, it mitigates
• 1:00:08
  your appetite. Like one of the things that happens with
• 1:00:11
  a lot of these diets that regulate insulin resistance is
• 1:00:15
  that when you get used to consuming just fats and protein,
• 1:00:20
  you don't have the kind of hunger pangs that you
• 1:00:23
  have with carbohydrates. Like when I– if I go in
• 1:00:27
  a bad streak and I'm eating pizza and pasta and
• 1:00:31
  I've done that in the past, I don't really do
• 1:00:32
  that much unless I'm on vacation. In the past though,
• 1:00:37
  what I would get hungry, I would get crazy hungry.
• 1:00:40
  Like I've got to eat now. I don't get that
• 1:00:42
  at all anymore because I'm mostly on a carnivore-based diet.
• 1:00:46
  Mostly what I eat– like you look at the bulk
• 1:00:49
  of my diet. It's meat and fermented vegetables. It's meat
• 1:00:53
  and like– Kimchi and sauerkraut and stuff along those lines.
• 1:00:57
  And when I eat like that, my hunger is very
• 1:01:00
  easy to control. And I've gone 24 hours like it's nothing,
• 1:01:05
  not eating. It's like not a problem at all. But
• 1:01:07
  that's the most I've ever fasted is 24 hours.
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: Okay. Well, see if you can go for three. It's
• 1:01:12
  really worth it. You feel really great. Ketosis is wonderful.
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 2: That's what everybody says. Yeah.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: And you go into what's called deep cleansing. It's called
• 1:01:20
  chaperone-mediated autophagy or CMA. Okay. And a friend of mine
• 1:01:24
  in New York, Maria Corvo, studies this. And it cleans
• 1:01:28
  out a lot of the old proteins in your body.
• 1:01:30
  So ketosis doesn't just make you feel good. You're actually
• 1:01:33
  renewing your protein in your body and rebuilding it. And
• 1:01:36
  so I do that as an anti-aging thing.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: What I find is the biggest benefit is mental acuity.
• 1:01:43
  It has a giant impact when I stick to the
• 1:01:46
  diet in terms of my ability to form sentences, recall information,
• 1:01:52
  and just be present in podcasts.
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So in my podcast, what you do is really
• 1:01:59
  quite difficult. You make it look easy. So when I'm
• 1:02:03
  doing my podcast, and often it's solo, so it's challenging,
• 1:02:07
  I forget things. I have to remember hundreds of papers
• 1:02:09
  for these things. They're quite hard. Either I'm going to fast,
• 1:02:12
  and if I don't remember to fast, I did an experiment.
• 1:02:15
  I took some ketones. You can drink these things, right?
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: There's the one– the little drink I think was.
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: Ketone IQ.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: Ketone IQ.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, fantastic stuff.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. I use that.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: I love that stuff. I do that. I take that
• 1:02:25
  before I do UFC broadcasts.
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 1: A lot of times.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: I actually took some before.
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 2: That's great before podcasts as well. One of the more
• 1:02:34
  difficult things that I do is the UFC commentary because
• 1:02:37
  it's six hours. It's six hours of talking on air live. Yeah,
• 1:02:42
  and about fights. And I'm also recalling fights. And I'm
• 1:02:45
  also– I'm seeing positions. So I have to remember in
• 1:02:48
  my mind how this is finished because like in jiu-jitsu,
• 1:02:51
  there might be– I don't know how many positions there are.
• 1:02:54
  There's thousands. And there's moves where I'm like, what is
• 1:02:57
  he doing? What is he doing? Oh, that's that. That's
• 1:02:59
  the Peruvian necktie. I'm looking at his arms. Your brain
• 1:03:03
  is– I am exhausted at the end of six hours
• 1:03:06
  and fucking starving. Like after the UFC is over, I
• 1:03:09
  can eat so much food. I'm so hungry.
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: But you take a little drink?
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 2: I take a little ketone. A little ketone IQ. Cool.
• 1:03:16
  I take nootropics. I drink this stuff. My friend Derek
• 1:03:19
  makes this. It's Gorilla Mind. It's a nootropic.
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: Oh, I got to try that.
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 2: So it's a nootropic cocktail with caffeine in it. This
• 1:03:28
  stuff is really good for a podcast. I also take
• 1:03:30
  Alpha Brain. Alpha Brain Black Label is phenomenal for that.
• 1:03:33
  There's a bunch of different ones that I take. The gum, NeuroGum.
• 1:03:38
  NeuroGum is excellent for that too. But I just do
• 1:03:40
  fucking everything I can to maximize.
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: My– So that's how you do it.
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: All right. Yes.
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: Secret is now out.
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: But what you do is amazing. And I thought you
• 1:03:47
  were on modafinil or something.
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 2: No. I've taken that before in the past. But the
• 1:03:52
  problem with that stuff is I think I like it
• 1:03:54
  too much and I want to take it all the time.
• 1:03:57
  You know when I used to take that? If I
• 1:03:58
  had a gig in San Diego and I drive home
• 1:04:02
  after the gig and it was like 1 o'clock in
• 1:04:05
  the morning when I'm done. And then I'm like, I'll
• 1:04:07
  just go home. It's only two and a half hours.
• 1:04:10
  And I start making the drive and you just get
• 1:04:11
  so tired. But if I take NuVigil or ProVigil before
• 1:04:16
  I do that, I would be able to drive. No problem.
• 1:04:18
  Put a book on tape on. What's that?
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: Can you sleep after that?
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. Yeah. It doesn't seem to affect your ability
• 1:04:24
  to sleep, which is really interesting. It's not like caffeine.
• 1:04:27
  Do you do it? Do you take it at all?
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: I'm a definite for talks when I'm traveling.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 2: Does it help you?
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: Definitely.
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 2: Like in what way?
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: It gets rid of my jet lag and I can focus.
• 1:04:40
  My brain often is either scattered or filled with facts
• 1:04:43
  that causes me like now to not be able to
• 1:04:46
  talk properly. But if I'm on it, which I'm not,
• 1:04:50
  I'm on point every time.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 2: For me, the best thing for jet lag is exercise.
• 1:04:55
  There's something about rigorous exercise. It doesn't even have to
• 1:04:59
  be long. It just has to be where my heart
• 1:05:02
  rate gets really elevated, like above 150 beats per minute
• 1:05:04
  for a 15, 20 minutes. Like I have to really
• 1:05:09
  go hard where I'm sweaty and breathing heavy, you know,
• 1:05:13
  especially if I jack it up to like 180, 190,
• 1:05:15
  like I'm doing like Tabata sprints on an airdyne bike,
• 1:05:18
  that kind of stuff completely resets me.
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 2: Hard kettlebell workouts. Like I'll do like a hard series
• 1:05:25
  where minimal amount of rest in between. So I'm really
• 1:05:27
  pushing it. Once I relax, I'm back. It's like it,
• 1:05:32
  whatever it is where your body just needs to like,
• 1:05:35
  shake it up and like get all of it out
• 1:05:37
  of your system it's like now i feel completely normal.
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah well you might remember last time we talked about
• 1:05:42
  hormesis yes what doesn't kill you makes you stronger and
• 1:05:45
  that's what you're doing you're putting your body into survival
• 1:05:47
  mode so one of the reasons i mostly plants why
• 1:05:51
  i take nmn and these other molecules is to mimic
• 1:05:55
  that i don't work out like you do um i
• 1:05:57
  should but i don't and why don't you uh i
• 1:06:02
  think partly because i've Tell myself I'm too busy, which
• 1:06:06
  is bullshit. I need a partner who will motivate me.
• 1:06:12
  I think that would help.
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 2: Maybe just get a trainer.
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 1: That's a solution.
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: You got some cheddar. Get a trainer.
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: I got some cheddar. Oh, is that money?
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 2: Money, yeah.
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 1: No, I can definitely afford one. Yeah, you know, it's
• 1:06:25
  on me. Actually, I will own that.
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 2: I just was explaining this to my friend last night.
• 1:06:30
  He was like, I got to start working. I'm like,
• 1:06:31
  just get a trainer. Get a trainer, someone who's good,
• 1:06:34
  and that way they'll develop a program for you. All
• 1:06:37
  you have to do is just show up and do
• 1:06:39
  what they tell you to do. Just do it. And
• 1:06:41
  it's mindless. You can just go through what they tell
• 1:06:44
  you to do and you'll just– trust the process. You'll
• 1:06:48
  improve radically.
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 1: Here's what we're going to do.
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: I'm going to take– Here's what we're going to do.
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: You're going to get me a jug of that fucking juice.
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: We'll swap, all right? And you'll be my trainer?
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 2: I'll be your trainer. I will. I've done that before
• 1:07:03
  with my comedian friends. Really? Sure. Then I do it
• 1:07:08
  the right way where I take him through it very easy.
• 1:07:11
  I don't have him work out hard at all, especially
• 1:07:14
  in the beginning. Everything is nice and easy. It's like
• 1:07:17
  a little bit of strain. You're not going to be
• 1:07:19
  exhausted afterwards, and we build you up. I'm a firm
• 1:07:24
  believer in not overtaxing the system on people that are sedentary.
• 1:07:28
  I really think it's a slow, gradual process. I think
• 1:07:32
  you have to get better the same way you got
• 1:07:33
  sick over time. You can make radical changes in a
• 1:07:38
  short period of time. Don't get me wrong. And even
• 1:07:40
  just a little bit of moderately rigorous exercise a few
• 1:07:46
  days a week will– a few days a week. will
• 1:07:48
  give you great improvements. But I'm not one of those
• 1:07:50
  guys who's like, you know, we're going to do two
• 1:07:52
  hours today and you're going to go to failure and
• 1:07:55
  you're going to be throwing up in a garbage pan.
• 1:07:56
  You're not going to do that again the next day.
• 1:07:58
  I want you to do it again the next day.
• 1:08:00
  I want you to have a nice workout where, you know,
• 1:08:03
  you're doing like 10 push-ups and 10 sit-ups and 10
• 1:08:06
  bodyweight squats and then we're going to do some of
• 1:08:08
  these kettlebell cleans and kettlebell, nothing hard. Like everything's going
• 1:08:13
  to be like, whew, okay, you put it down, you're fine.
• 1:08:16
  And I want you to leave rejuvenated like you feel
• 1:08:19
  like oh that was like exhilarating nothing crazy and then
• 1:08:22
  we'll slowly start to add a little bit over time
• 1:08:25
  that's what i think the right thing to do with
• 1:08:27
  people who don't work out all the time you can't
• 1:08:30
  just jump in and you know.
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 1: It's like fasting and skipping meals you just can't do
• 1:08:34
  a day or three without practicing.
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 2: Well it's also you're going to get injured and this
• 1:08:38
  is one of the main things that happens to people
• 1:08:41
  that dive right into the deep end of the pool
• 1:08:42
  when they start working out is they get hurt they
• 1:08:44
  get muscle pulls they get They got all these different
• 1:08:47
  things that happen because I think you just pushed your
• 1:08:49
  body too quickly. It's like you're in boot camp. Like, well,
• 1:08:54
  you don't have to be in boot camp. This is
• 1:08:55
  not the way to do it. The way to do
• 1:08:57
  it is slowly build up and trust the process. Slowly.
• 1:09:02
  Start by, if you're overweight, like my friend Jelly Roll,
• 1:09:04
  he lost 250 pounds. What did he do? Started walking.
• 1:09:08
  Just started walking. Walking around the neighborhood. Walk around the block.
• 1:09:11
  Walk upstairs. Just slowly. And then change the diet and
• 1:09:15
  then add some stuff. Next thing you know, you're doing this.
• 1:09:18
  And write it all down, too. That's the other thing.
• 1:09:20
  Write down what you're going to do and write down
• 1:09:23
  how you feel. And then keep doing that. And if
• 1:09:25
  you can do that all the time, you'll start developing this, like,
• 1:09:27
  momentum that we were talking about.
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 2: Like, okay, I'm on the course. I'm on a process.
• 1:09:32
  But it doesn't have to be like you're exhausted and
• 1:09:35
  then you go to the lab and you're like, I
• 1:09:37
  can't even fucking concentrate. You know, I was doing Tabata
• 1:09:40
  sprints on the Airdyne machine. Like, this is crazy.
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: Well, that's– it's really good advice and I'm going to
• 1:09:46
  take you up on it. So let's say I'm lucky
• 1:09:48
  enough to come on the show again.
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 1: I'll wear a tight t-shirt.
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 2: Let's go.
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 1: Right. So 20 million people.
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 2: You're going to have to get off that fucking goofy
• 1:09:56
  plant-based diet. Well, let's speak.
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 1: About that because that's one of the things we disagree on.
• 1:10:01
  I'm on a plant-based diet because I've seen a lot
• 1:10:04
  of work on animals at least that plants promote longevity.
• 1:10:09
  I eat a lot of protein.
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 2: It's interesting because you're not an animal. You know that, right?
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 1: I'm not a mouse.
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 2: You're not a mouse.
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 1: I'm definitely an animal, but I'm not a mouse.
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 2: I agree. Meat is the most nutrient-dense food that's available.
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 1: I love meat. I love meat.
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 2: She eats it all the time.
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: I believe that there are two states that we can
• 1:10:27
  be in. I should try meat, and then we can
• 1:10:32
  see if it works.
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 2: You'll feel great.
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: Because I've been measuring myself with rings and blood tests.
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 2: For the last 20 years. You should try elk. I'll
• 1:10:38
  get you an elk steak.
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 1: I'd love to try it.
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 2: It sounds good.
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I'm not against meat. I will eat it.
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 2: You'll eat it and you'll be like, whoa.
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Don't get me addicted to meat.
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 2: You feel it right away. Like, oh. Oh, your synapses
• 1:10:51
  start firing. Your body starts like, yes, this is what
• 1:10:53
  we wanted, David.
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 1: Well, here's some science, which is what I do. There
• 1:10:59
  are two states. This is my theory. There's the abundance mode,
• 1:11:03
  which is very good for health. You'll build muscle. You'll
• 1:11:05
  heal better. That's meat. Right. Killed a mammoth. There's adversity mode,
• 1:11:10
  which is. We're out of meat. We've got to eat
• 1:11:13
  roots and berries. That's adversity. We've got to run, running, exercise,
• 1:11:18
  eating less. That's adversity. Both are good for you. This
• 1:11:22
  one is pro-survival. This one is pro-growth. This one is longevity.
• 1:11:27
  This one is you're going to be stronger, fitter.
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 2: How do you determine that though in terms of like
• 1:11:31
  what is longevity versus what is just like health and
• 1:11:35
  vitality currently?
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 1: Well, it's based on the last 30 years of research
• 1:11:39
  in a variety of animals.
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 2: This doesn't have to do with the blue zones, does it?
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 1: No.
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 2: Because you know that's a horse shit, right?
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 1: I read that recently, yeah.
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 2: Isn't that nuts? It's unfortunate.
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: It's a lot of fraud. Well, records are hard.
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 2: Well, it's not just hard. A lot of it is
• 1:11:55
  actual fraud where people are getting checks for their grandpa
• 1:11:58
  and grandpa was dead. So they weren't writing it into
• 1:12:01
  the government. They didn't expose– like this was the problem
• 1:12:04
  with Okinawa in particular is that they would have to–
• 1:12:08
  in order for these people to get taken off the list,
• 1:12:10
  they would have to inform the government that this person
• 1:12:12
  died and they just didn't do it. And so they
• 1:12:15
  had this list of people that they were counting in
• 1:12:18
  their census that were like so old. Like this is crazy.
• 1:12:21
  What are you people doing? Everyone is 100 years old.
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 1: The oldest person in the world apparently, 122. There's a theory,
• 1:12:27
  not proven, that the oldest person in the world was
• 1:12:30
  actually the daughter who was faking it to get taxes
• 1:12:35
  or avoid taxes I think it was in France. I
• 1:12:37
  hope that that's not true.
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 2: I bet it's true. People are full of shit.
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 1: Well, either way, the maximum human lifespan is around 117, 118.
• 1:12:45
  Which is still a lot more than we live.
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 2: And what's really crazy is none of those people are
• 1:12:49
  doing everything right.
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 1: Exactly.
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 2: They're all smoking cigarettes and drinking wine and having a
• 1:12:54
  good time. And that's a factor that we really need
• 1:12:57
  to take into consideration. Loneliness and isolation and sadness are
• 1:13:03
  one of the greatest contributors to poor health outcomes. It's
• 1:13:07
  number one. Is it really? Yeah.
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 1: Robert Voldinger at Harvard had a study for, I think
• 1:13:11
  it was 40 years. World War II vets. They looked
• 1:13:14
  at everything, blood pressure, cholesterol. The number one thing that
• 1:13:17
  predicted longevity in those men was having a reliable partner.
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Not just a reliable partner. Someone that you love.
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 1: That's true.
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 2: Someone that you like want to be around all the time.
• 1:13:31
  You enjoy them. You still enjoy their company, which is possible.
• 1:13:35
  Most people don't believe that's possible.
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 1: Well, you're a role model in that.
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 2: I love my wife. I– Have fun with her. Like
• 1:13:42
  we– I've been with her for a long– I've been
• 1:13:43
  married for 17 years. I enjoy her. I enjoy hanging
• 1:13:47
  out with her. She's cool. Like she's a– and I
• 1:13:50
  have friends that aren't in situations like that. And it's
• 1:13:55
  so bad when you're– like I have a friend who
• 1:13:58
  just– we were actually talking last night. He just got
• 1:14:01
  out of a crazy relationship where he was dating this
• 1:14:04
  girl for seven years. It was chaos and this and that.
• 1:14:06
  And I said to him– and he was like, I–
• 1:14:09
  he's 40– And he goes, I don't think I'm ever
• 1:14:12
  going to have a relationship again. He goes, it was
• 1:14:14
  so bad. He goes, being single feels so good. And
• 1:14:17
  I said, there's an old saying, it's so much better
• 1:14:20
  to be alone than to wish you were alone. And
• 1:14:23
  he's like, yes, that's it. Because he was like with
• 1:14:26
  this crazy lady. And he was like, I just wish
• 1:14:29
  I was free. And he finally got free. And now
• 1:14:32
  he's like, I think I'm ruined. And I'm like, it
• 1:14:34
  doesn't have to be like that. You can find someone
• 1:14:36
  that you actually love. And you really enjoy their time.
• 1:14:39
  You enjoy being with them. It's possible.
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 1: There's good people out there.
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 2: But you've got to also be someone that that kind
• 1:14:46
  of person wants to be with. That's the other thing.
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 1: For sure. And stress of relationship. We've seen in studies
• 1:14:52
  that clock with those chemicals on the DNA, it accelerates
• 1:14:55
  when you're under stress or going through a breakup.
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. Oh, God.
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 1: You see it too.
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 2: Oh, I've seen people going through divorces and it just
• 1:15:02
  like– it takes decades off of their life. They just
• 1:15:04
  look wrecked. And it takes a year or two for
• 1:15:07
  them to like achieve equilibrium again. It's hard. It is.
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 1: It is. I went through that actually just during COVID
• 1:15:15
  when our family got shoved in a house together. Yeah,
• 1:15:19
  it was brutal. It was unexpected too.
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 2: Wow. That's the stress test, right?
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 1: It was super stress. It was super stress. It's funny
• 1:15:27
  that you said that. Without the pandemic, we might have
• 1:15:29
  been able to make it. But forcing us all to
• 1:15:31
  be in one little house with no internet working well,
• 1:15:34
  it was tough. But in any case, I'm great now.
• 1:15:37
  I'm very happy. But I do know how bad it
• 1:15:40
  can get and it's brutal.
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, bad relationships can fucking wreck people. I mean it
• 1:15:46
  can wreck your health. But also it's not just relationships
• 1:15:49
  in terms of your significant other, husband, wife, partner, whatever
• 1:15:52
  you want to call it. But also bad relationships at work.
• 1:15:56
  Like if you have a tyrant for a boss– And
• 1:15:59
  every day you're getting– you're working overtime and you're getting
• 1:16:03
  yelled at and you're on the phone and you're at
• 1:16:05
  home trying to keep up with work and you never
• 1:16:08
  get– like that kind of relationship where you have like
• 1:16:11
  this like antagonistic, terrible relationship with people that you work with,
• 1:16:15
  that's bad too.
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 1: Oh, for sure.
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 2: Your body doesn't differentiate between romantic relationships and those kind
• 1:16:21
  of relationships are almost equally bad.
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 1: Cortisol will be high.
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 1: This will accelerate here. I used to keep fish. I
• 1:16:27
  was one of those people at school. And the fish
• 1:16:30
  that got picked on by the dominant fish was small,
• 1:16:33
  lacked color, lived short. It's biology. If you're picked on
• 1:16:37
  and you're stressed, you're going to age faster. Fortunately, I
• 1:16:41
  think you're probably the same. At my age, I've managed
• 1:16:44
  to weed out most of the jerks and I don't
• 1:16:46
  work with them at all. I've got a great partner
• 1:16:48
  who we have a hobby of longevity together. So I'm
• 1:16:52
  lucky in that regard now.
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 2: You found a new one.
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, longevity specialist. Imagine that.
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 2: Congratulations. Well, that's nice too, right? Find someone who just
• 1:16:59
  like thinks the way you think and has similar likes
• 1:17:02
  and interests. Yeah, that definitely can help. Yeah, I know
• 1:17:06
  a lot of my friends that are in really good relationships,
• 1:17:08
  their significant other has the same hobby as them, you know,
• 1:17:13
  like whatever it is. They both like to climb mountains
• 1:17:16
  or whatever the fuck it is. Find a thing. But
• 1:17:18
  that helps too. So you actually enjoy spending time together
• 1:17:21
  doing something that you're both really excited about. That helps too.
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 1: So relationships is one. And the other four major ones
• 1:17:27
  from that study were don't smoke, don't drink, get enough rest,
• 1:17:32
  and get exercise. And that was enough to extend by
• 1:17:35
  15 years.
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 2: But what about those old people that live forever and
• 1:17:39
  do smoke and drink? Because that's kind of weird.
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 1: Well, they're at 0.01%. They're not examples of what– Is.
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 2: That really what it is? Yeah. It's just– So the
• 1:17:46
  majority of people who get old and live to like centenarians,
• 1:17:51
  like what are the common things that they have?
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 1: The big one is that they don't stress a lot.
• 1:17:57
  They usually have a good sense of humor.
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 2: Interesting.
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 1: Right. They haven't been overweight and they say that they
• 1:18:05
  typically– couldn't remember when they last got sick.
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 2: I wonder how much time Twitter takes off your life.
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we should study that. It's already taken a lot
• 1:18:17
  off mine.
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 2: It does.
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 1: And if you read the comments even more.
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 2: Yep, exactly. I'm so much happier since I swore off
• 1:18:25
  of all that stuff. It's just not good for you.
• 1:18:27
  It's really, really bad for you. It's also, you're constantly
• 1:18:31
  dealing with the problems of the whole world, which I
• 1:18:33
  think is a lot. for a human being that lives
• 1:18:37
  in a community, in a neighborhood. That shit that's happening
• 1:18:41
  over there really shouldn't be a primary focus of your life,
• 1:18:46
  like where you're in the moment actually doing your life.
• 1:18:49
  It's not the same. You're not in the same area
• 1:18:52
  as this problem. But yet this problem is overwhelming your
• 1:18:56
  all day long life.
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 1: And you're in fight or flight constantly.
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 2: All day. All day. And you're worried about the climate. Oh,
• 1:19:02
  my God. Like there's so much. There's so much that
• 1:19:05
  freaks people out that it really shouldn't be affecting you
• 1:19:08
  at all. Exactly.
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 1: And actually the world doesn't change if you don't read it.
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 2: That's the key. But then you're like, well, you're passing
• 1:19:16
  off the responsibility to other people. You should get involved. Like,
• 1:19:20
  you should get involved. I'm going to be over here.
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 1: That's right. Well, if you focus on doing something good
• 1:19:26
  and you're good at it.
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 1: Like yourself. I think that you don't need to be
• 1:19:29
  doing more than that.
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 2: You can't focus on everything. And anybody who tells you
• 1:19:33
  you can is a fool. Or anybody who tells you
• 1:19:35
  what you should or shouldn't be focusing on is a fool. Yeah.
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 1: A few years ago someone at a talk that I
• 1:19:40
  gave said you should be working on climate change.
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 2: Fuck off.
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 1: I said after I cure aging, I'll get to climate change.
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Why don't you go to China and tell them
• 1:19:48
  to stop making coal factories? Shut the fuck up. Just
• 1:19:51
  shut up. No. You're not going to fix it. Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:19:57
  Somebody is. Somebody is working on it and that's their
• 1:19:59
  goal and God bless them. Good luck.
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, what I try to spend my day is
• 1:20:04
  efficiently helping the world so that people ask me why
• 1:20:07
  do I study aging in the first place? And it
• 1:20:09
  really is that I'm trying to please my grandmother like
• 1:20:13
  some of us. She was the one that told me
• 1:20:15
  that I need to make the world a better place
• 1:20:17
  and she's gone now.
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 2: That's what she said to you?
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 1: When I was four. Wow. It's been that ever since.
• 1:20:23
  She told me two things. Humans are evil. She lived
• 1:20:26
  through World War II in Hungary and the Russians came
• 1:20:29
  in and raped everybody, she said. Wow. And then– so
• 1:20:33
  she escaped to Australia and then she said that the
• 1:20:37
  other issue is that we don't do enough as humans
• 1:20:41
  to better the world. And so I had that stuck
• 1:20:43
  in my mind. She also, by the way, said, oh,
• 1:20:46
  we all die. And I thought that's not really fair,
• 1:20:50
  is it? And that set me on this path.
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 2: Make the world a better place and we all die.
• 1:20:56
  And you're like, ah.
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 1: And what I've noticed with my kids is that even
• 1:21:00
  if you tell them that, They forget about it because
• 1:21:03
  it's brutal to think about death every day. Yeah. But
• 1:21:06
  for some reason, it's just stuck in my head. And
• 1:21:09
  every day, I'm like another 150,000 people are going to
• 1:21:11
  die today due to aging-related diseases. So my lab is mission-oriented.
• 1:21:16
  If we are a day late with something, there's a
• 1:21:19
  lot of people that are suffering potentially avoidable diseases.
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 2: That's why it's sort of understandable that people show up
• 1:21:25
  outside of your lab and like, I need to talk
• 1:21:29
  to you. I need this.
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, blind people want to get in the trial.
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 2: It's big.
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 1: And I think if the trial works, it's going to
• 1:21:36
  be a very strange world, especially for my lab and
• 1:21:38
  for me. But we'll see. And even if it doesn't
• 1:21:42
  work this time, the science is strong enough that we'll
• 1:21:44
  figure it out. We will do this. It's just a
• 1:21:47
  question of when.
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 2: And so do you think that AI is going to
• 1:21:50
  have a significant impact on the kind of improvements that
• 1:21:53
  you're able to.
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 1: It already is. We're going super fast. And AI has
• 1:21:58
  revolutionized biology. It's revolutionizing everything, of course. But particularly in
• 1:22:01
  biology where we used to have to read 15 papers
• 1:22:05
  a day. Now we can read a million if we want.
• 1:22:08
  It's totally different.
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's super brain. A 19-year-old came to my lab
• 1:22:15
  this summer and the lab grows from 20 to 40 people.
• 1:22:19
  And we're trying to figure out how do these three
• 1:22:22
  genes reset the cell? How does the cell remember what
• 1:22:25
  it was 30, 40 years ago? Where's that information stored
• 1:22:29
  in the cell? And I've got this theory that there's
• 1:22:33
  some new biology. There's a record in the DNA somewhere.
• 1:22:36
  And I gave him that task. I said, can you
• 1:22:39
  just go to the databases of the whole world, look
• 1:22:42
  at all the data that's there, exabytes of data, and
• 1:22:45
  see if my prediction is true, or at least you
• 1:22:48
  can get evidence for it. Two weeks later, he came back,
• 1:22:52
  and the whole team, not the whole team, but five
• 1:22:54
  other people were smiling. We have to show you something, David.
• 1:22:57
  I come in my office. We sat down. He shows
• 1:22:59
  up on the board on this LCD screen. I think
• 1:23:03
  we found the smoking gun for what your theory suggests.
• 1:23:06
  And he used AI to process all that data. And
• 1:23:09
  the AI came back and said, yeah, you're probably right.
• 1:23:12
  And it's a 19-year-old straight out of high school who
• 1:23:15
  did this. That did something that the whole field and
• 1:23:17
  all these professors and all these fancy sirs could not
• 1:23:21
  figure out until now.
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 2: That is phenomenal. That's so promising. It's so exciting.
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 1: It is. I mean the future really does belong to
• 1:23:30
  people who can wrangle AI even on their phone. I
• 1:23:33
  think people on their phones are going to be making
• 1:23:35
  medicines or at least designing them.
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 2: Or bombs.
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 1: That's the problem. And bioweapons.
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 1: You recently had– was it Anna on the show? She'll
• 1:23:44
  talk about bioweapons and this kind of stuff. That is
• 1:23:48
  a big worry. I actually had to disclose to the
• 1:23:50
  US government when I first got here that I did
• 1:23:52
  have the capability of making a bioweapon.
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 2: The Anna Jacobson episode that we just did on bioweapons
• 1:23:58
  was absolutely terrifying. Yeah. She's– I mean she scared the
• 1:24:02
  shit out of the world with her nuclear war book
• 1:24:04
  and now she's scaring everybody with her bioweapons book.
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's scary.
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 1: It is. What I've got is a database of all
• 1:24:12
  known pathogens and new ones that could come. So I'm
• 1:24:15
  trying to do my bit there to help the world
• 1:24:17
  if it happens again, pandemic or something unnatural.
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, that would be– I mean– When you think
• 1:24:24
  about diseases that people get that just like wreck their
• 1:24:28
  entire body, if you really do have an original copy
• 1:24:32
  somewhere in their genome of what they look like as
• 1:24:35
  a healthy person and you could switch that back on
• 1:24:38
  with a factory reboot. I mean we could potentially get
• 1:24:43
  rid of all diseases, which is just bananas.
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 1: And injuries, fixed injuries, grown new limbs potentially. There's a
• 1:24:52
  new paper that just came out a few days ago.
• 1:24:54
  that showed that the tips of the fingers of baby
• 1:24:56
  mice can be coaxed once they've healed over as a
• 1:25:00
  stub to regrow part of the finger.
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 2: Haven't people done that before?
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they found just two factors were enough. So it's
• 1:25:08
  not that hard. The point is we've got the instructions
• 1:25:12
  to be young and to regrow body parts in our body.
• 1:25:15
  We just don't use them.
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 2: That's nuts. So like a salamander can grow an extra
• 1:25:20
  leg or a leg that gets chopped off. Yeah.
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 1: I believe we still have that capability. We just don't
• 1:25:25
  use it. It just didn't make sense to regrow a limb.
• 1:25:27
  It was quicker and safer to just heal it over
• 1:25:29
  as a stub and move on. But salamanders, which get
• 1:25:32
  their limbs presumably eaten pretty often, maintain that ability. I
• 1:25:39
  wouldn't say that we could evolve this, but I think
• 1:25:41
  using a combination of our technology plus this new technology
• 1:25:45
  that we're seeing come out where these two factors can
• 1:25:47
  grow new limbs, I don't see a reason why we can't.
• 1:25:50
  become like a deadpool where injury doesn't hurt us aging
• 1:25:53
  can't hurt us and we can regrow body parts.
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 2: How far do you think we are away from being
• 1:25:58
  able to regrow body parts oh.
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 1: I mean realistically probably a couple of decades but i
• 1:26:04
  i've seen enough that's not that far i've seen enough
• 1:26:06
  to know that it's doable a.
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 2: Couple of decades ago was 2006.
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 1: Well things are going super fast i mean 10 years
• 1:26:12
  ago we didn't even know aging was irreversible and now
• 1:26:14
  it's in humans.
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 2: That's nuts think of that. Well, 2019 when you came here,
• 1:26:21
  there was no AI. Right.
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 1: 2019, it was an idea that we had just got
• 1:26:27
  the result in mice, and I divulged that to the world.
• 1:26:30
  Then it was published, and then we're in humans now.
• 1:26:33
  So if it works, then it's going to be a
• 1:26:36
  very different world.
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 2: And you feel very confidently that some of this stuff
• 1:26:42
  is going to work?
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 1: Well, it's going to work. I don't know if this
• 1:26:46
  trial is going to be successful, but there's going to
• 1:26:48
  be a lot of people doing these trials. I have
• 1:26:50
  some competition now. Do you know about that? No. Uh,
• 1:26:54
  so since I started my company, Life Biosciences, which is
• 1:26:57
  doing the trials with ER100, others have joined in, in
• 1:27:01
  the party. Uh, so Jeff Bezos and others have started
• 1:27:05
  Altos Pharma. Um, they are based in three cities around
• 1:27:09
  the world. They have a few billion dollars to catch up. Um,
• 1:27:13
  Sam Altman has RetroBio and, uh, Let's see. Brian Armstrong
• 1:27:19
  from Coinbase, the CEO, started one called New Limit and
• 1:27:23
  they've got a lot of money, all billions.
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 2: Do you think it's good that there's all these people
• 1:27:28
  involved in this?
• 1:27:29
  Speaker 1: I welcome it. Yeah, definitely.
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 1: I'm not doing this for my own personal benefit. I
• 1:27:34
  want humanity to be changed the way it could be.
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 2: And the more people like Jeff Bezos, the more people
• 1:27:39
  with a large bank account that are invested in this,
• 1:27:41
  the better.
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 1: Fantastic.
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 2: And of course, a guy like Bezos, he's balling out
• 1:27:44
  of control. Why wouldn't he want to live forever?
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 1: Well, what's left if you've got everything else?
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 2: Well, also it's like if you've got the amount of
• 1:27:52
  money that he has and you can tackle all these
• 1:27:55
  different issues like his space program that he's working on,
• 1:27:57
  all these different things. Like, of course, why wouldn't you
• 1:28:00
  want to do cool things? Like what's cooler than being
• 1:28:02
  able to grow limbs? Yeah, yeah. What's cooler than being
• 1:28:05
  able to cure all diseases and reverse aging?
• 1:28:08
  Speaker 1: Well, I don't think there's much cooler. That's why I'm
• 1:28:11
  doing it because that I think can be the biggest
• 1:28:13
  gift to humanity is what you just said. So I
• 1:28:16
  don't know if I'll achieve it. Probably not in my lifetime.
• 1:28:19
  But at least I've moved the needle and pushed the
• 1:28:21
  ball globally in that direction.
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 2: I wonder if we're going to get to a point
• 1:28:25
  in time where we can engineer consciousness in terms of
• 1:28:29
  like find out– like you find out someone is a sociopath.
• 1:28:33
  You find out someone is a kleptomaniac or someone is
• 1:28:36
  an arsonist. Like whatever it is. Like if you could
• 1:28:40
  figure out like what these little flaws are in the
• 1:28:43
  way the mind works. If we can completely map it
• 1:28:45
  out and go, oh, this is the error. This is
• 1:28:49
  where you're not making these two connections. Of course.
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 1: Of course. It's all just biology and engineering. There's nothing
• 1:28:54
  that stops us. And this is the century that we
• 1:28:57
  are able to control our own biology. Starting with cancer,
• 1:29:01
  heart disease and aging.
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 2: A true utopian world of peaceful people living in harmony.
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 1: But healthy.
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 2: Not peaceful?
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 1: I don't think world peace– I think curing aging is
• 1:29:11
  easier than world peace.
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 2: Well, if everybody achieved a state of consciousness that allowed
• 1:29:17
  them to understand that we're all in this together.
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, how do we do that?
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 2: Mushrooms.
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 1: Mushrooms.
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 1: Well, there are certain companies working on this.
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 2: I know. That's what's interesting, right? Like Eli Lilly is
• 1:29:30
  involved in pharmaceuticals. Well, the pharmaceutical company rather is involved
• 1:29:34
  in psychedelics.
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 1: They just bought a tie.
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 2: I think it was like $ 3. 8 billion. So they're all
• 1:29:39
  in with real capital. Yeah. I love it.
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, me too.
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 2: That's great.
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 1: I love that they're doing that. We need more of that.
• 1:29:45
  There's too much depression. Anxiety in the world.
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 2: And drug addiction. I mean that's why I went to
• 1:29:51
  the White House and got the president to get involved
• 1:29:54
  in this executive order on Ibogaine.
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 2: Because I've talked to so many people that have had
• 1:30:00
  their life completely turned around with Ibogaine. So many people
• 1:30:04
  that were opioid addiction and also brain injuries, oddly enough.
• 1:30:09
  Brain injuries, all sorts of TBI and CTE issues. that
• 1:30:13
  they've had like phenomenal results from this iboga tree, you know,
• 1:30:19
  which is so crazy that this thing had been around
• 1:30:22
  for so long and is a schedule one substance in
• 1:30:25
  the United States for no reason whatsoever. There's no risk
• 1:30:29
  of addiction. There is no recreational use of it. It's
• 1:30:32
  a horrible experience. I've not done it, but apparently it's
• 1:30:35
  fucking terrible. And it lasts for like 24 hours. Like
• 1:30:38
  no one's going to be doing that for funsies. Right.
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 1: Well, the question I think That comes up with all
• 1:30:43
  of these drugs is do you have to have the
• 1:30:44
  trip and experience the craziness?
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 2: To get the benefits.
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 1: To get the benefit. And I don't think so. I
• 1:30:50
  think you should be able to separate them.
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, they've actually figured this out with LSD. Yeah. Right?
• 1:30:55
  Do you know about this? No. Okay. So they've engineered
• 1:30:58
  a different version of LSD that doesn't give you the
• 1:31:03
  hallucinogenic effects but does give you the benefits in terms
• 1:31:07
  of like the cognitive effects.
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 1: The Atai guys or someone else?
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 2: I don't know what company has done this. See if
• 1:31:14
  you can find that, Jamie.
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 1: I think it might be a time.
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 2: But what they've essentially done, and I think it's basically
• 1:31:20
  in the lab work stage right now. I don't think
• 1:31:23
  that's applied to humans yet. But what they've done is
• 1:31:26
  engineered a version of LSD that has all the positive
• 1:31:30
  effects that LSD has in terms of, like, introspection, being
• 1:31:35
  able to, like, rethink and remap and reset the way
• 1:31:38
  you view things, but without, like, Watching people's face melt
• 1:31:43
  and thinking that demons are eating you and all the
• 1:31:46
  weird stuff that comes with it.
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 1: Outstanding. It should happen with psychedelics the way it's happened
• 1:31:51
  with all medicines, right? We start with something from the
• 1:31:54
  bark of a willow tree and then we have aspirin.
• 1:31:56
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 1: We're not eating bark anymore.
• 1:32:00
  Speaker 2: Right. But sometimes the bark is the really way to go, right? Unfortunately,
• 1:32:05
  sometimes that's the part of the problem is these pharmaceutical
• 1:32:08
  drug companies, they patent– these natural compounds and use petroleum-based
• 1:32:14
  synthetic methods of creating these medications now that they can
• 1:32:18
  sell and profit wildly off of, whereas really the best
• 1:32:22
  way to do it is actually to get the plant.
• 1:32:25
  It's true.
• 1:32:26
  Speaker 1: There's the whole issue, though, that if it's not approved,
• 1:32:30
  then it's the Wild West. You don't know what you're getting.
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 2: Right. That's true, too.
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 1: We need a middle ground. We need something you can
• 1:32:36
  get fast on the market that's known to be safe.
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 2: So what we're going to need is mind reading because
• 1:32:42
  we need to know if people are full of shit.
• 1:32:43
  That's what we're going to need.
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 1: We're going to need– Got to work on that.
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 2: Yes. I think that's going to change humanity more than anything.
• 1:32:50
  Speaker 1: I think you've got a good bullshit detector.
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 2: It's OK. There's a few people that have snuck through, unfortunately.
• 1:32:56
  Some people, they get through and they're like, it takes
• 1:32:58
  a while. And you're like, ah, shit.
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 1: They're never coming back on the show.
• 1:33:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, there's that. The show, you learn a lot
• 1:33:07
  from a person in about three hours. You can kind
• 1:33:10
  of– after a while, you can kind of see little things.
• 1:33:13
  And you have to be forgiving and you have to
• 1:33:16
  be charitable. And some people are just nervous and they
• 1:33:19
  misstate things or they exaggerate things or they forget something.
• 1:33:23
  They get it wrong. But then there's people that are
• 1:33:25
  just– essentially, they really don't care about anybody but themselves.
• 1:33:31
  And some of those people are really good at pretending
• 1:33:33
  to be people. They're really good at pretending. You know,
• 1:33:36
  they're really good at pretending to be like a normal person. Oh,
• 1:33:40
  here's the LSD thing. Research has recently engineered an LSD
• 1:33:44
  analog called, how do you say it, plus minus JRT,
• 1:33:49
  that appears to keep many of the LSD's brain beneficial
• 1:33:52
  and cognitive effects while dramatically reducing and possibly eliminating its
• 1:33:56
  hallucinogenic trip in animal studies. So it's almost the same
• 1:34:00
  molecule as LSD, but scientists swap the positions of just
• 1:34:04
  two atoms in the structure. The subtle change makes JRT
• 1:34:08
  bind more selectively to serotonin receptors in a way that
• 1:34:11
  promotes neuroplasticity, growth and repair of synapses, but minimizes hallucinogenic signaling.
• 1:34:17
  That's incredible. Antidepressant, look at this. Strong antidepressant effects at
• 1:34:24
  doses reported to be around 100 times more potent than
• 1:34:27
  ketamine in standard rodent tests. Cognitive benefits. Improved cognitive flexibility
• 1:34:34
  and performance in tasks modeling the negative and cognitive symptoms
• 1:34:38
  of schizophrenia. Holy shit. That's incredible.
• 1:34:43
  Speaker 1: When and where do we get it?
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 2: Well, I think it's fairly recent. It's a UC Davis study.
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 1: They just developed it.
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 2: Oh, it's in my– Shout out to our AI sponsor
• 1:34:52
  Perplexity for providing us with this information. This is again–
• 1:34:55
  I mean like we could just get this information now
• 1:34:58
  through AI. Like I mean this– the AI for our
• 1:35:01
  show has been gigantic. I mean just the ability to
• 1:35:03
  just ask it a question instead of Google searching and
• 1:35:07
  having to go through all these different fucking articles. What
• 1:35:09
  does it say? What is that? Who's right? What's this one?
• 1:35:12
  What's the website? You just ask– AI and perplexity just
• 1:35:16
  gives us all the information. So proceedings from National Academy
• 1:35:20
  of Science researchers at California of San Diego Davis, excuse me,
• 1:35:25
  University of California Davis reported the creation of JRT, chemically
• 1:35:29
  modified version of LSD. So this is like what year?
• 1:35:36
  So 2025, so last year. So it's exciting. Five years away,
• 1:35:40
  but still.
• 1:35:41
  Speaker 1: You're right.
• 1:35:41
  Speaker 2: Is that the timeline?
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 1: At a minimum, usually it takes that long But that's exciting.
• 1:35:46
  At least the principle is there that you don't need
• 1:35:47
  to hallucinate.
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 2: Well, how about for schizophrenia? That's incredible. You need something. Yeah.
• 1:35:51
  I mean, that is incredible because that is one of
• 1:35:53
  the saddest things, to watch somebody fall into the grips
• 1:35:56
  of schizophrenia. Yeah. I've seen people fall in and come out,
• 1:35:59
  which is interesting.
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 1: I thought for the bullshit detector, we could have an
• 1:36:03
  AI that either dings or has a green or a
• 1:36:06
  red on your forehead.
• 1:36:07
  Speaker 2: I'm pretty good at it, but I think no one's
• 1:36:10
  perfect at it. And I think ultimately, if we get
• 1:36:13
  to a place... whether it's a technological innovation or what
• 1:36:18
  have you, where we can actually read the contents of
• 1:36:21
  someone's thoughts. I don't think that's outside the realm of possibility.
• 1:36:26
  Speaker 1: You'd need an implant, I think.
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 2: Elon says the Neuralink is going to be able to
• 1:36:30
  pull that off. Yeah. You're going to be able to
• 1:36:33
  talk without using words. I'm like, what? I think he's
• 1:36:37
  right though. I think if we all like lock into
• 1:36:40
  a hive mind and then– If we develop– like through AI,
• 1:36:46
  if we develop a universal language worldwide.
• 1:36:51
  Speaker 1: Well, we already have that.
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 2: What do we have?
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 1: Well, the new headphones from a big company that I
• 1:36:56
  won't name. You can translate.
• 1:36:58
  Speaker 2: Translate. Yes. Translate. But it's translating to English. If we
• 1:37:02
  just all– the problem with that is there's context. There's
• 1:37:05
  all sorts of different things that Other cultures, different languages,
• 1:37:08
  when it's deciphered and changed and translated into English, you
• 1:37:12
  lose a lot of the meaning and the context is weird.
• 1:37:16
  If we develop a universal language.
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 1: That would be ideal. English is a good substitute. I
• 1:37:22
  was shocked. I'm always shocked traveling globally how many people
• 1:37:25
  can just speak English now.
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty amazing. It's because America rules. You're welcome.
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 1: Well, we have to thank Britain for that. America should
• 1:37:34
  say you're welcome.
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they're cute. They did a good job of starting
• 1:37:38
  it out, but we took the ball and spread it
• 1:37:40
  all over the world.
• 1:37:41
  Speaker 1: So who's next? China?
• 1:37:43
  Speaker 2: God, I hope not. I don't want to learn Chinese.
• 1:37:44
  That's too hard. It's all fucking characters. That's ridiculous. Even
• 1:37:47
  people that I know that can speak Mandarin, they can't
• 1:37:50
  write it. To get to that level, I have a
• 1:37:53
  couple friends that speak fluent Mandarin and they can't write it.
• 1:37:57
  Writing it is.
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, the students in my lab who come from China,
• 1:38:02
  they're being picked on by by the immigration, but they
• 1:38:05
  don't want to go home. They love it here.
• 1:38:07
  Speaker 2: I'm sure because they're stealing all your secrets and they
• 1:38:08
  bring it back home.
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 1: Well, there's that. There's a lot of regulation on that
• 1:38:11
  now as a scientist.
• 1:38:12
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. Oh, I can imagine.
• 1:38:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:38:15
  Speaker 2: I mean, it has to be because that is an
• 1:38:16
  actual real threat. Exactly.
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 1: So the people that come through my lab have to
• 1:38:20
  be vetted now.
• 1:38:21
  Speaker 2: Right. But the people that come over here and experience
• 1:38:23
  the kind of freedom that you have in America. Oh, yeah.
• 1:38:26
  Speaker 1: I came here from Australia. Australia is pretty free, but
• 1:38:28
  compared to Australia, America is so different.
• 1:38:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:38:31
  Speaker 1: I can't go back.
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 2: What's the big difference?
• 1:38:35
  Speaker 1: That I feel I can do anything I want if
• 1:38:37
  I just put my mind to it. There's not social barriers.
• 1:38:40
  There's not monetary barriers, at least for a white male
• 1:38:44
  like me, who's got a degree. I know it's not
• 1:38:46
  for everybody, but I feel like if I want to,
• 1:38:49
  Start a company. I've got a great idea. I can
• 1:38:51
  do that here. Fat chance you'll do that in Australia.
• 1:38:54
  People aren't willing to invest in great ideas down there.
• 1:38:57
  Not often.
• 1:38:58
  Speaker 2: That's a bummer. Do you think that changes anytime soon?
• 1:39:01
  Speaker 1: No.
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 2: The U.S.
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 1: Is so unique. There's a lot of money flowing. People
• 1:39:05
  are willing to place a bet and even lose the money.
• 1:39:08
  That's rare. Australians, most of the world, if not all,
• 1:39:11
  people are scared to lose their money.
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 2: If they have it.
• 1:39:14
  Speaker 1: Here it's like, okay, I risked it. I helped the world.
• 1:39:17
  I feel good. It's a very generous country, very. And
• 1:39:21
  I love it here. When I arrived here, I just felt, ah,
• 1:39:23
  I'm home.
• 1:39:24
  Speaker 2: I love hearing that from people that have come from
• 1:39:26
  somewhere else because it kind of reaffirms why people in
• 1:39:30
  America are so proud of what this country is. It
• 1:39:33
  should be, yeah. And that's why it bums me out
• 1:39:35
  when people are so mad at America in terms of–
• 1:39:39
  I get looking in terms of foreign policy and some
• 1:39:41
  of the things that are wrong with America. But just
• 1:39:43
  in overall, this experiment in self-government is pretty remarkable. Yeah.
• 1:39:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I watched the TV show. Was it The American Experiment?
• 1:39:51
  It came out for the anniversary, the 250th.
• 1:39:54
  Speaker 2: I haven't seen it.
• 1:39:55
  Speaker 1: You've got to see it.
• 1:39:56
  Speaker 2: What's it on?
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 1: It's the founding fathers and their lives and how they
• 1:40:00
  were fighting and what was going on behind the scenes.
• 1:40:03
  They were just young kids. They were in their 20s, 30s.
• 1:40:05
  Speaker 2: I know. Isn't that nuts? Yeah.
• 1:40:07
  Speaker 1: Just Benjamin Franklin was the old dude. But they were
• 1:40:09
  so young. But they were in the middle of it.
• 1:40:13
  They kind of realized they were making history. But so
• 1:40:16
  many things could have gone wrong We would not have
• 1:40:18
  had the United States if just a few votes went
• 1:40:21
  one way or the other.
• 1:40:22
  Speaker 2: A few wars.
• 1:40:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:40:23
  Speaker 2: A few different battles that they had.
• 1:40:26
  Speaker 1: Exactly. The US was losing the war against Britain badly.
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah. They burned the White House down. Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:40:33
  Speaker 1: We don't thank the French enough actually.
• 1:40:34
  Speaker 2: I know. Right? Somehow they became our enemy. Yeah. Remember
• 1:40:38
  during the Gulf War, they turned French fries into freedom
• 1:40:41
  fries because people hated the French? Yeah.
• 1:40:44
  Speaker 1: But everyone hates the French because they're so arrogant. Sorry, French.
• 1:40:48
  I have some friends who are good friends.
• 1:40:49
  Speaker 2: I think generally when people are arrogant, it's because they
• 1:40:52
  did something fucking awesome.
• 1:40:54
  Speaker 1: Well, in the 1800s, they did. They conquered Europe. Not
• 1:40:59
  sure if that's awesome.
• 1:41:00
  Speaker 2: Here's a fun perplexing search I just did. I said,
• 1:41:02
  do Americans have a risk gene? A risk gene? Yeah.
• 1:41:05
  One of the best studied variants in the dopamine receptor
• 1:41:08
  gene DRD4, specifically the 7-repeat-7R version- It's associated in some
• 1:41:15
  studies with novelty-seeking impulsivity and higher financial or social risk-taking.
• 1:41:20
  I wonder if I have that gene. For sure. Probably not.
• 1:41:24
  Who knows? The 7R variant is unevenly distributed around the world.
• 1:41:30
  In populations across the Americas, it shows up in roughly
• 1:41:33
  48% of chromosomes studied, while in East Asia, it's found
• 1:41:36
  in only about 2%. Whoa, that's crazy.
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 1: It all comes down to genetics.
• 1:41:43
  Speaker 2: Evolutionary work suggests it became more common in groups that
• 1:41:45
  migrated further after leaving Africa. And those lineages are strongly
• 1:41:50
  represented in the Americas today. That actually makes... I was
• 1:41:55
  thinking of the people that had the balls to fucking
• 1:41:57
  come here. You don't have to do that much, but
• 1:42:01
  you can still have balls to gamble and... Yeah.
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 1: That must be it. But then Australians should have it.
• 1:42:07
  Speaker 2: That completely– well, sort of. You guys got forced there.
• 1:42:10
  They moved everybody over there because they were criminals. Right.
• 1:42:13
  Speaker 1: This DDR gene that you just saw, was it DDR4?
• 1:42:19
  I know a bit about it because I'm writing it
• 1:42:20
  in my next book.
• 1:42:22
  Speaker 2: DRD4?
• 1:42:22
  Speaker 1: Thanks, Jamie. I call this the FU gene because I'm
• 1:42:26
  trying to figure out what makes humans special over other animals.
• 1:42:30
  And this is one of them that we are. seekers
• 1:42:33
  of explorers and uh it's it turns out turns out
• 1:42:37
  that this gene is turned on in teenagers it gets
• 1:42:40
  eventually switched off not totally but that might be why
• 1:42:44
  teenagers say fu to their parents but it's a way
• 1:42:48
  genetically to get them out of the nest like oh
• 1:42:50
  i can't stand these parents they suck they're idiots i'm
• 1:42:53
  out of here that's in this in this gene.
• 1:42:57
  Speaker 2: Well it's also um I, as a parent, have been
• 1:43:02
  very aware of not doing that to my kids, like
• 1:43:06
  not forcing them into something that they don't want to
• 1:43:08
  do or pushing them in any general direction, but rather
• 1:43:11
  encouraging them to seek out their interests and encouraging them
• 1:43:16
  to just like take chances. And if I ever correct them,
• 1:43:19
  if I ever get upset about something, one of the
• 1:43:21
  first things that I tell them is I've done everything
• 1:43:24
  that you've done. I've made every mistake. I've fucked up.
• 1:43:27
  You're smarter than me. I've fucked up everything. I've lied
• 1:43:31
  to my parents. I lied to teachers. I've done everything
• 1:43:35
  that you're doing. So this is not a unique thing.
• 1:43:38
  I'm just telling you from my own personal experience and
• 1:43:40
  my perspective, this is why I think because I love
• 1:43:44
  you and I want you to do well in life.
• 1:43:45
  I just want you to recognize this. And that's how
• 1:43:48
  I correct my kids.
• 1:43:50
  Speaker 1: I love that.
• 1:43:51
  Speaker 2: It's never like you listen to me because I'm your father.
• 1:43:53
  There's none of that shit. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:43:54
  Speaker 1: The old way we were raised.
• 1:43:55
  Speaker 2: I hate that shit.
• 1:43:56
  Speaker 1: It doesn't work.
• 1:43:57
  Speaker 2: No. And it makes you resentment. But also probably makes
• 1:44:00
  you want to do better than your parents. So it
• 1:44:03
  motivates you in a certain way. My parents were not
• 1:44:05
  risk takers at all. And my whole life I've been
• 1:44:09
  like a wild risk taker.
• 1:44:10
  Speaker 1: Really same. Yeah, I was resentful that my father didn't
• 1:44:13
  have enough ambition. Now he's a great guy. We're best
• 1:44:16
  friends actually. It's been the greatest thing for me. But
• 1:44:19
  one of the things I did with my kids, you're
• 1:44:20
  reminding me, is he's 19. He's a well-built guy because
• 1:44:24
  we were going to the gym for a number of years.
• 1:44:26
  I tried to train him in health. But he spent
• 1:44:30
  the summer with me. He's literally still working for me
• 1:44:32
  this summer to help with the podcast and the magazine
• 1:44:35
  we're about to launch. And Benjamin's his name. He's the
• 1:44:38
  best kid. But he slacked off. He was like, Ben,
• 1:44:42
  I put you in charge of social media. You haven't
• 1:44:43
  posted in a week. What's going on? Well, you know,
• 1:44:46
  I slept in. So I had to think, am I
• 1:44:48
  going to get mad at him like I would a
• 1:44:50
  normal employee or do I treat him differently? And I
• 1:44:53
  decided to treat him differently probably because he's my son.
• 1:44:56
  But I didn't want to ruin the relationship. But what
• 1:44:59
  I did was I said, you know, I really think
• 1:45:04
  you can do better. I think everything you've done, the weightlifting,
• 1:45:07
  the calculus, you're amazing. But in this, you're not. So
• 1:45:13
  what's going on? And it worked. We've become closer. He's
• 1:45:17
  really into it. He's doing a good job now.
• 1:45:19
  Speaker 2: That's great.
• 1:45:19
  Speaker 1: So that's the way to do it, I think. You
• 1:45:21
  can't be too hard on them. Can't say you fucked up.
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean that kind of can work but it's
• 1:45:26
  a blunt instrument and it doesn't work on everybody and
• 1:45:30
  it also develops resentment. And they also– they miss out
• 1:45:35
  on experiencing your perspective as a– like for them to
• 1:45:40
  understand that you are just a person who has lived
• 1:45:42
  longer than them. And that you can help them navigate
• 1:45:46
  this road.
• 1:45:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so you don't have to make the same mistakes.
• 1:45:50
  Speaker 2: That we did. That's why you're helping them. You're talking
• 1:45:54
  to them about this not because you're just a mean
• 1:45:57
  dad who likes to fucking tell the kids what to do.
• 1:46:00
  Because we've all experienced that. I mean I had friends
• 1:46:02
  growing up whose fathers would fucking scream at them and
• 1:46:04
  throw things and beat them. And it's like, God. And
• 1:46:09
  then you just grow up fucking traumatized and always resentful
• 1:46:13
  and angry. Instead of just recognizing that like, oh, I'm
• 1:46:18
  so fortunate that my parents have this perspective where they
• 1:46:23
  can explain to me why I'm going through what I'm
• 1:46:26
  going through and how they got through it.
• 1:46:28
  Speaker 1: Like a mentor. You're not their best friend. You're their mentor.
• 1:46:31
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 1:46:32
  Speaker 1: Best friend doesn't work either.
• 1:46:33
  Speaker 2: No, that doesn't work either because that just allows too
• 1:46:36
  much shenanigans. You have to have some rules. You have
• 1:46:39
  to have some sort of regulations.
• 1:46:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:46:42
  Speaker 2: And your kids turned out well. What's that?
• 1:46:44
  Speaker 1: How'd your kids do?
• 1:46:45
  Speaker 2: Oh, they're great. Great. I'm so, so lucky. So fucking lucky.
• 1:46:49
  I mean, I feel so fortunate. They're so smart and
• 1:46:52
  ambitious and driven. And so it's wild. It's wild to watch,
• 1:46:55
  you know, and talented. And it's, um, and also like
• 1:47:00
  we never went through that period where, um, they hit
• 1:47:03
  teenage years and they hate you like that. Well, God,
• 1:47:07
  that's so nice. I mean, my youngest, she'd get upset
• 1:47:11
  at me sometimes about certain things, but she bounces back quickly.
• 1:47:13
  It's never like some kids where they just grow to
• 1:47:16
  hate their parents.
• 1:47:18
  Speaker 1: The RD4 gene. Maybe they don't have a strong one.
• 1:47:21
  Speaker 2: I don't know about that. I think it's how you
• 1:47:24
  communicate with them. I really do. I think that's a
• 1:47:27
  big factor. You have to communicate with them like you
• 1:47:31
  truly care about their development. And the most important thing
• 1:47:35
  I think is that I always tell them, whatever you've done,
• 1:47:40
  whatever mistake you've made, I made way worse mistakes. I
• 1:47:42
  was like I am not coming at you from a
• 1:47:44
  flawless person. I'm not coming at you from the perspective
• 1:47:48
  of someone who like you're an idiot. I figured that out.
• 1:47:52
  You should figure it out. Like no. Whenever– from the
• 1:47:56
  time they were really little, anytime I had to correct them,
• 1:47:58
  I said I did everything that you're doing. Everything.
• 1:48:03
  Speaker 1: I threw my food on the floor too.
• 1:48:05
  Speaker 2: Yes. All the above. Whatever fucking stupid thing you've done
• 1:48:09
  as a kid, I guarantee you.
• 1:48:11
  Speaker 1: That is great advice. Really great advice. So I hope
• 1:48:14
  everyone listening hears that because I actually had to learn
• 1:48:17
  the hard way. My first kid, I did what my
• 1:48:19
  parents did. did which was you can't say that yeah
• 1:48:22
  and my first is a lot more rebellious and distant
• 1:48:25
  than my third for that reason interesting yeah it actually
• 1:48:28
  is really true i've seen it.
• 1:48:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah and it's i thought it was going to kill
• 1:48:31
  their motivation but it doesn't at all i thought like
• 1:48:35
  making things easy for them and not being strict. Like
• 1:48:38
  maybe it's good to be strict because then you just
• 1:48:40
  have this determination to show everybody. I don't think that
• 1:48:43
  was my thing as a child. Like I'll fucking show you.
• 1:48:47
  But I don't think everybody needs that. I think you're
• 1:48:50
  much better off having a healthy relationship with ambition where
• 1:48:55
  you're excited about things because you're passionate about them and
• 1:48:58
  you find great reward in being creative or being enthusiastic
• 1:49:04
  about something.
• 1:49:05
  Speaker 1: Exactly. And open their eyes to the world that exists.
• 1:49:08
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 1:49:09
  Speaker 1: We used to do work experience. You go and do
• 1:49:11
  a job and that's your work experience. The reason I
• 1:49:13
  wanted my son Ben to work with me is he
• 1:49:15
  can see what it's like to be an entrepreneur and
• 1:49:18
  build something and be excited. And work is super fun
• 1:49:20
  when you.
• 1:49:21
  Speaker 2: Get into it.
• 1:49:22
  Speaker 1: I think a lot of kids just don't get that experience.
• 1:49:24
  They don't know what's possible.
• 1:49:26
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:49:26
  Speaker 1: And just showing them the world is what we can
• 1:49:29
  do as parents.
• 1:49:29
  Speaker 2: That's awesome. Yeah. And You know, I mean, some people
• 1:49:34
  don't have that at home, unfortunately, but that's one of
• 1:49:37
  the cool things about the world that we live in
• 1:49:40
  is that kids today have access to so many different
• 1:49:43
  perspectives now because of the internet. There's so many different
• 1:49:48
  podcasts and YouTube conversations and different things where they can
• 1:49:52
  just take a little tool from that, just take a
• 1:49:55
  little piece from that and apply it to the way
• 1:49:57
  they interact with the world. Yeah.
• 1:50:00
  Speaker 1: Um, For sure. And I would encourage parents to give
• 1:50:04
  their kids stuff to read. We talked about social media,
• 1:50:08
  how that's just addictive. I saw how my kids wanted
• 1:50:11
  to just scroll through their phones and read. And if
• 1:50:14
  they can't read a book, give them a magazine. I
• 1:50:17
  subscribe to Nat Geo, National Geographic, for my kids. And
• 1:50:22
  I think get them used to reading. It's going to
• 1:50:25
  be a lost art if we don't. I know.
• 1:50:27
  Speaker 2: Isn't that nuts? I maybe read 10% of the things
• 1:50:31
  that I consume. I consume so much in audio just
• 1:50:35
  for time reasons because there's so much time where I'm
• 1:50:40
  driving my car or I'm working out or I'm in
• 1:50:42
  the sauna or I'm in the hyperbaric chamber or I'm
• 1:50:46
  in the red light therapy.
• 1:50:47
  Speaker 1: That's reading three years.
• 1:50:48
  Speaker 2: It is similar, but I think it's only like 70%
• 1:50:53
  of reading. I don't think it's 100%. I don't think
• 1:50:55
  you get the full effect, but it's still way better
• 1:50:57
  than not doing it. But I'm aware that like sitting
• 1:51:01
  there concentrating, actually reading a book without hearing another person's
• 1:51:05
  voice talking, there's another mechanism. There's another thing that's going on.
• 1:51:10
  It's a different way you interact with the material, whether
• 1:51:12
  it's nonfiction or fiction.
• 1:51:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I like the fact that I can listen to
• 1:51:16
  you and I'm doing something else. I don't have to
• 1:51:18
  sit down. I can move, go for a walk.
• 1:51:21
  Speaker 2: For me, it's just I have too many interests. I
• 1:51:25
  have way too many things that I do. So it's
• 1:51:28
  very hard for me to just allocate a certain amount
• 1:51:30
  of time to sit there in silence and read. Yeah.
• 1:51:33
  Speaker 1: I use reading to fall asleep. That's a good way.
• 1:51:35
  Speaker 2: It does do that, right? It's kind of nuts how
• 1:51:37
  well it does that. Yeah.
• 1:51:38
  Speaker 1: Although I am finding it's harder to read now that
• 1:51:41
  my eyes aren't young.
• 1:51:42
  Speaker 2: I need some of my gene therapy myself.
• 1:51:46
  Speaker 1: I've tried that. Does it work for you?
• 1:51:47
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. Oh, I mean– People are skeptical about this
• 1:51:52
  and they think I'm full of shit. No, I don't
• 1:51:54
  need reading glasses anymore. Really? Yes. I had reading– I
• 1:51:58
  always have these fucking things laying around. I don't even
• 1:52:00
  use them anymore. That's awesome.
• 1:52:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot of science now for red light.
• 1:52:04
  Speaker 2: It's real. I can tell you as a regular user
• 1:52:07
  for multiple years, it took a while. It took like–
• 1:52:11
  I was waiting for it in the beginning like, what
• 1:52:14
  the fuck? And not only that, in the beginning because
• 1:52:16
  I don't close my eyes in the red light bed,
• 1:52:19
  I thought it was making things blurrier. I was like,
• 1:52:21
  oh my god, am I fucking up my eyesight like
• 1:52:23
  listening to these assholes? But no, it just took a while.
• 1:52:28
  And then over the course of like many months, I
• 1:52:31
  started seeing some small improvements. And then I started seeing
• 1:52:34
  some pretty big improvements over the course of about a year.
• 1:52:38
  Whereas now, it's not– my eyes aren't perfect. They aren't
• 1:52:42
  like they were when I was 20. But they are
• 1:52:45
  way better than they were when I was 50.
• 1:52:47
  Speaker 1: How often did you have to do that?
• 1:52:49
  Speaker 2: I do it three times a week minimum. That's what
• 1:52:51
  I try to do. But sometimes I'll do it five
• 1:52:53
  days a week. I just get in there and it's
• 1:52:55
  20 minutes. I lay in a light bed, close my eyes,
• 1:52:58
  open my eyes, whatever. It seems to work on your
• 1:53:01
  vision even if you wear a blindfold.
• 1:53:03
  Speaker 1: What about people that can't afford a bed? Can you
• 1:53:05
  get little devices? Yes.
• 1:53:06
  Speaker 2: You can get– well, there's a company called– it's called Juve, right? J-U-U-V.
• 1:53:12
  Is that the name of the company? They were our
• 1:53:14
  sponsor at one point in time. That's how I started it.
• 1:53:16
  They had– it's just a light panel that you stand
• 1:53:20
  in front of. Oh, yeah.
• 1:53:21
  Speaker 1: I've got one of those.
• 1:53:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And that works too. But this one, the one
• 1:53:26
  that I got, a red and near infrared light therapy devices, JOOV, J-O-O-V-V,
• 1:53:34
  medical grade light therapy devices. I had one of those
• 1:53:37
  and that's when I started seeing benefits. But the big
• 1:53:42
  one that I got, I got from Gary Brekka from
• 1:53:44
  his company and it's a like a fucking tanning bed
• 1:53:47
  and you lie in it and that one's amazing but
• 1:53:49
  that's expensive but i don't think you have to have
• 1:53:51
  that for that those kind of improvements also improves collagen
• 1:53:54
  your skin makes you look better and um the but
• 1:53:58
  for me the most obvious and profound was the improvement
• 1:54:02
  in my vision.
• 1:54:03
  Speaker 1: Well it makes sense the the science behind red light
• 1:54:05
  wasn't there 10 years ago and people were questioning it
• 1:54:08
  but now we know if you shine certain wavelengths like
• 1:54:11
  near infrared on cells The mitochondria, which are important for
• 1:54:16
  reversing aging or slowing it, get revved up. It's actually
• 1:54:19
  related to Viagra. Long story, but Viagra and red light
• 1:54:24
  have something in common, and it does help mitochondria. And
• 1:54:27
  that's very important for the eye. The mitochondria are actually
• 1:54:29
  the most important in any part of your body. The
• 1:54:33
  eye is the most important part. And part of the
• 1:54:35
  reason we lose our vision is the mitochondria don't make
• 1:54:38
  enough energy for the eye.
• 1:54:38
  Speaker 2: How come you haven't done red light therapy before then?
• 1:54:42
  Speaker 1: Well, I do, but not. routinely so I have one
• 1:54:46
  of those bricks that I turn on while I'm in
• 1:54:48
  the shower and I have a red light cap for
• 1:54:50
  my hair which there's some evidence.
• 1:54:52
  Speaker 2: My wife has one of those it works a little
• 1:54:54
  bit she looks like a fucking alien.
• 1:54:55
  Speaker 1: What I do is I yeah it does it looks
• 1:54:57
  a little bit silly it's weird I don't wear it
• 1:54:59
  in public but I do lower it and I look
• 1:55:02
  at it and it shines in my eyes and on
• 1:55:03
  my face in the hopes that it might help.
• 1:55:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah they have one that you wear like Dr. Doom
• 1:55:08
  like fits over your face and like blast red light
• 1:55:10
  in your whole face.
• 1:55:11
  Speaker 1: I definitely feel a bit weird And I can see speckles.
• 1:55:15
  But I think the science says that it can help.
• 1:55:18
  Speaker 2: Well, all I know is my own anecdotal experience. And
• 1:55:22
  for me, it has radically improved my vision.
• 1:55:26
  Speaker 1: That's a good tip.
• 1:55:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It stopped– my vision was degrading. Like it was
• 1:55:33
  pretty odd. Like I first started using like reading glasses
• 1:55:36
  like a 1X. Like it made it a little better.
• 1:55:39
  I'm like, oh, this is a little better. It makes
• 1:55:40
  it clearer. And then I went to 2X. And then
• 1:55:42
  I was using 2.5. Right. And it made it better.
• 1:55:45
  But it was like, God, this is annoying. And then
• 1:55:48
  if I would try to like read an email and
• 1:55:51
  I didn't have my reading glasses, I couldn't read shit. Now,
• 1:55:55
  crystal clear.
• 1:55:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:55:56
  Speaker 2: No problem at all.
• 1:55:57
  Speaker 1: Well, so my latest show is about the eye and
• 1:55:59
  how to protect the eye's health. And so there's a
• 1:56:03
  lot you can do actually, supplements, red light, other things.
• 1:56:07
  Speaker 2: I take supplements for it too. I should mention that.
• 1:56:09
  I take– I have no affiliation with these people, but
• 1:56:13
  Pure Encapsulations makes a supplement called Macular Support, and I
• 1:56:17
  take that. And it's a combination of lutein and a
• 1:56:20
  few other things.
• 1:56:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there was a trial a while ago that showed
• 1:56:25
  that taking xanthine and others, astaxanthine, lutein, they're good for
• 1:56:32
  the eye. So you can get products like that.
• 1:56:34
  Speaker 2: Do you take it?
• 1:56:35
  Speaker 1: Not that brand, but yes, I take something similar.
• 1:56:37
  Speaker 2: And has it helped you at all? I don't know.
• 1:56:40
  Speaker 1: I haven't done an experiment.
• 1:56:41
  Speaker 2: Right. Well, if you weren't taking it, maybe you would
• 1:56:43
  have more degeneration.
• 1:56:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, you know, I've got near perfect vision. I
• 1:56:48
  don't need glasses.
• 1:56:49
  Speaker 2: Do you really?
• 1:56:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:56:51
  Speaker 2: Near perfect?
• 1:56:51
  Speaker 1: Near perfect. I mean, I think low light.
• 1:56:54
  Speaker 2: Low light is with me. Where I'll go to a
• 1:56:56
  restaurant with my kids and they can read the menu.
• 1:56:58
  And I'm like, that is so embarrassing. You can read that?
• 1:57:02
  How do you even read that? I can't read shit.
• 1:57:04
  Do you know why? Why?
• 1:57:06
  Speaker 1: Well, this is what I think. So we know from
• 1:57:09
  my lab's work that the retina, because it has tens
• 1:57:12
  of thousands of endings that pick up the light, as
• 1:57:16
  you get older, those nerves lose their identity and they're
• 1:57:19
  not working as well. And what we do is with
• 1:57:22
  our therapy, we can restore those nerves back to being
• 1:57:27
  functional nerves. And that's why mice and monkeys that lose
• 1:57:32
  their retinal function get their perfect vision back again. We're reminding...
• 1:57:38
  those cells that have forgotten how to work so in
• 1:57:40
  your eye and my eye we're 22 months apart that
• 1:57:43
  those nerves about half of them have forgotten how to
• 1:57:46
  work properly so we want to fix that and go
• 1:57:48
  back to being young it's not that our nerves are
• 1:57:50
  gone they're not dead they're right there and we can
• 1:57:52
  restore them and that's going to be true for a
• 1:57:54
  lot of organs is that the cells are still there
• 1:57:57
  they just need to be reminded how to work again what.
• 1:58:00
  Speaker 2: Are the potential negative consequences of this kind of work
• 1:58:03
  like when you when you sit up at night and
• 1:58:05
  you worry i hope it doesn't do this Is it cancer?
• 1:58:09
  Is that the big one? Yeah.
• 1:58:11
  Speaker 1: It's– though we've done a lot of work to allay
• 1:58:14
  real fears. It is possible that if we go too young,
• 1:58:19
  we can cause dysplasia which is cells doing what they
• 1:58:22
  shouldn't or if they multiply and spread, that would be cancer.
• 1:58:25
  Speaker 2: If you make the cells too young. Like what I
• 1:58:26
  was saying before about don't turn me into a baby. Right.
• 1:58:29
  Speaker 1: We don't want to go there. That's what Yamanaka did
• 1:58:31
  and got the Nobel for it. But that's not good here.
• 1:58:35
  But we never see our cells turn into stem cells again.
• 1:58:38
  We can't. We had mice that we left the gene
• 1:58:41
  therapy on for 21 months in the eye and 19
• 1:58:45
  months in the whole body of the animal. And if anything,
• 1:58:47
  they had less tumors than the ones that didn't get treated.
• 1:58:51
  And we actually know from a wonderful student in my lab, Nalat,
• 1:58:56
  she's a PhD student. She found that when you turn
• 1:58:58
  on these three same genes, not in the eye, but
• 1:59:00
  in cancer cells and tumors growing in mice, human cancers
• 1:59:04
  growing in mice, they shrink. So we think it might
• 1:59:07
  actually help for cancer as well, which was a nice surprise.
• 1:59:10
  Speaker 2: Wow. That's incredible.
• 1:59:12
  Speaker 1: It makes sense, right? If you wake up a cancer
• 1:59:14
  cell and it says, crap, I shouldn't be growing. I
• 1:59:18
  should be a liver cell or something similar. Now it
• 1:59:24
  kills itself. So we see that. Cells wake up. They
• 1:59:26
  realize what they were 30 years ago. And then they
• 1:59:29
  kill themselves.
• 1:59:32
  Speaker 2: What is on the horizon in terms of like what
• 1:59:34
  would you like to accomplish or would you like to
• 1:59:37
  work on that you can't do currently?
• 1:59:40
  Speaker 1: Well, lots, lots. Funding in my lab got completely cut
• 1:59:44
  last year and we've managed to survive through donations.
• 1:59:49
  Speaker 2: Why did the funding get cut? Was it a USAID thing?
• 1:59:52
  Speaker 1: You remember there was a spat between Harvard and the
• 1:59:55
  federal government? All of the funding to Harvard Medical School
• 1:59:58
  got covered.
• 1:59:58
  Speaker 2: Was that during the time where the president was defending
• 2:00:02
  those anti-Semitic comments on campuses?
• 2:00:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, allegedly. I'm not getting into the politics. No
• 2:00:10
  need to.
• 2:00:10
  Speaker 2: Get into politics. But during that whole thing, yeah.
• 2:00:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So what we– I almost had to fire most
• 2:00:17
  of the people in my lab during that episode. It
• 2:00:19
  was quite scary. But I raised– So now my lab
• 2:00:23
  survives on donations, not on federal government money. Thank you, friends.
• 2:00:29
  Thank you, thank you.
• 2:00:30
  Speaker 2: Well, the thing is you've accomplished enough where people are like,
• 2:00:33
  I think he's on to something and I want to
• 2:00:35
  live forever.
• 2:00:36
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm lucky. Most scientists can't raise money like that.
• 2:00:39
  So really, really it's a blessing. And now I'm raising
• 2:00:41
  money through a foundation to help other scientists survive. But yeah,
• 2:00:46
  it's been a blessing. But your question was what do
• 2:00:50
  I wish I could do?
• 2:00:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:00:51
  Speaker 1: I wish I could go faster. I wish I could
• 2:00:53
  try multiple approaches so we don't just have one shot
• 2:00:56
  on goal. It's going slower than I would want with
• 2:01:00
  a big injection of cash. We could do a lot
• 2:01:02
  of trials, a lot of different tissues. We could do
• 2:01:04
  a whole body rejuvenation as well.
• 2:01:07
  Speaker 2: Do you have a website where people can donate?
• 2:01:12
  Speaker 1: I do. It's Lifespan.com.
• 2:01:14
  Speaker 2: So if you go to Lifespan.com, there's a link there.
• 2:01:18
  Speaker 1: We have a foundation and we're raising money for this
• 2:01:21
  type of research.
• 2:01:22
  Speaker 2: Is it tax deductible?
• 2:01:24
  Speaker 1: Depends on how big the donation is. For $ 10, you
• 2:01:28
  get the new magazine that we're putting out and you
• 2:01:31
  learn all about how to live longer. I'm hoping to
• 2:01:34
  build the world's largest longevity community of millions of people
• 2:01:37
  who can learn how to really live longer and build
• 2:01:40
  healthcare from the ground up because top down from the
• 2:01:42
  government hasn't worked. Actually, I have a gift for you.
• 2:01:46
  Speaker 2: What do you got?
• 2:01:47
  Speaker 1: I made something for you that's unique. This is for you, Joe,
• 2:01:53
  as a thanks to all the support you've given me
• 2:01:57
  and the science over the years.
• 2:01:58
  Speaker 2: First edition. Lifespan magazine, ladies and gentlemen. Look at that.
• 2:02:03
  Speaker 1: It's written by scientists.
• 2:02:04
  Speaker 2: What a great cover. It's like a velvet cover. What
• 2:02:07
  is this material?
• 2:02:08
  Speaker 1: I figured you might like that. Inside is the magazine.
• 2:02:10
  Speaker 2: What is this material? It's beautiful. Velour. Velour.
• 2:02:14
  Speaker 1: Oh, velour, of course. At great expense. No, the magazine
• 2:02:16
  doesn't come with velour. That's just special for Joe as
• 2:02:19
  a thank you present.
• 2:02:21
  Speaker 2: Thank you very much.
• 2:02:22
  Speaker 1: Most science out there is written by reporters who don't
• 2:02:25
  know what they're talking about. And so we wrote this
• 2:02:29
  for the public, and you can believe whatever you read
• 2:02:32
  in there.
• 2:02:32
  Speaker 2: All right. Beautiful. And it's velour, so you have to
• 2:02:35
  trust it.
• 2:02:36
  Speaker 1: So that's at Lifespan.com. You can subscribe. Get that every
• 2:02:39
  month just for $ 10.
• 2:02:40
  Speaker 2: I like the take at the bottom. Life's too short.
• 2:02:44
  Let's fix that.
• 2:02:45
  Speaker 1: That's our slogan.
• 2:02:46
  Speaker 2: That's a great slogan.
• 2:02:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 2:02:48
  Speaker 2: That's an awesome slogan.
• 2:02:50
  Speaker 1: So it's a community. It's the show. My show is
• 2:02:53
  also called Lifespan on YouTube. But the magazine is a
• 2:02:56
  passion project. I want to put out something that people love.
• 2:02:59
  It's beautiful. It's like National Geographic. By the way, just today,
• 2:03:05
  this is no joke. It seems crazy. But my lab's
• 2:03:10
  research is on the cover of National Geographic.
• 2:03:12
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's awesome.
• 2:03:12
  Speaker 1: That just came out today. They heard, by the way,
• 2:03:15
  at NatGeo, they said, you going on Joe Rogan? I went, yeah.
• 2:03:19
  They goes, all right, we'll put it out early. So
• 2:03:20
  you can now read about my lab's research on NatGeo
• 2:03:24
  as well today.
• 2:03:24
  Speaker 2: That's very cool. That's very cool. So you would just
• 2:03:27
  like to do more, have more funding, do more. That's
• 2:03:32
  the thing that you wish you could be working on now,
• 2:03:34
  just having more different, more different. studies and tests running concurrently.
• 2:03:39
  Speaker 1: We could go so fast with AI because it's spitting
• 2:03:42
  out new drug candidates all the time that we can't test.
• 2:03:44
  It takes years to get through. So with money, we
• 2:03:47
  could do a lot more trials and put these through
• 2:03:50
  different diseases much faster.
• 2:03:52
  Speaker 2: If you had no regulations, like an island of Dr.
• 2:03:54
  Moreau type deal?
• 2:03:57
  Speaker 1: Well, at the risk of getting kicked out of my university, theoretically,
• 2:04:03
  we could very safely do more animal studies And with
• 2:04:07
  those best candidates, put them into humans quicker. Right now,
• 2:04:11
  it takes years. It's taken us close to 10 years
• 2:04:14
  to go from the first discovery in my lab in
• 2:04:18
  Nature magazine to now. But that's too slow. There are
• 2:04:21
  people dying, 150,000 a day on this planet. It's terrible.
• 2:04:25
  So I would love to have the resources, you know,
• 2:04:27
  like Jeff Bezos and others. My company, by the way,
• 2:04:31
  even though we lead the pack of all these guys,
• 2:04:34
  we're really small. We're a pretty small little outfit in Boston.
• 2:04:40
  We've raised a lot less money. But because I think
• 2:04:42
  we're focused, we have. And we started earlier. We're doing
• 2:04:45
  pretty well.
• 2:04:46
  Speaker 2: That's the big one. You started earlier. You have a
• 2:04:48
  lot of momentum on your side. Yeah.
• 2:04:51
  Speaker 1: I think we could have a big impact on aging
• 2:04:54
  in our lifetime with more money directed in general at
• 2:04:58
  the field, not just me, but spread it. And so
• 2:05:02
  the money that we raise from the magazine is going
• 2:05:04
  to support Other labs as well and students who can
• 2:05:09
  find these medicines quicker.
• 2:05:10
  Speaker 2: So if you– in a perfect world and you had
• 2:05:13
  unlimited resources, you would just run a bunch of different
• 2:05:18
  clinical trials and studies concurrently? Yeah.
• 2:05:21
  Speaker 1: AI is feeding us molecules. We put them into mice.
• 2:05:23
  We go to monkeys. We go to humans and it
• 2:05:25
  would just be fast. One of my friends, Alex Zakharonkov,
• 2:05:29
  he has a similar company but not on exactly what
• 2:05:33
  we do, not on reprogramming. But he's able– I think
• 2:05:36
  he's on his 35th drug. But he's driven by AI
• 2:05:42
  and robots. His whole lab is robots. At least he
• 2:05:45
  says they are. And then he goes into humans. And
• 2:05:48
  his company is worth billions. That approach applied to what
• 2:05:53
  we do would be incredible.
• 2:05:56
  Speaker 2: That's best-case scenario. That would be incredible. Well, I'm hoping
• 2:06:00
  through this conversation that people are going to reach out.
• 2:06:03
  And I'm hoping through this conversation that people are realizing like, oh, well,
• 2:06:07
  so much work has been done and so many breakthroughs
• 2:06:11
  have been made. If they had more access to resources,
• 2:06:14
  more access to different– whatever you need and that you
• 2:06:18
  could run all these different studies.
• 2:06:21
  Speaker 1: We could. Our budget in my lab is only– it's
• 2:06:25
  almost three and a bit million. It's not much compared
• 2:06:28
  to what impact it could have on the planet, which
• 2:06:30
  is trillions of dollars saved. Just in the U.S.
• 2:06:33
  Speaker 2: Alone.
• 2:06:34
  Speaker 1: So it's a little bit of donation or getting a magazine.
• 2:06:39
  The impact would be life-changing for all of us. Who
• 2:06:43
  doesn't age? Who doesn't get diseases? Right.
• 2:06:45
  Speaker 2: And who doesn't want to feel better?
• 2:06:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 2:06:48
  Speaker 2: It's also like so much– you can get so much
• 2:06:51
  more done if you feel better.
• 2:06:53
  Speaker 1: Well, we take it for granted until we feel sick
• 2:06:56
  and then it's like, oh, I forgot what it's like
• 2:06:57
  to feel well.
• 2:06:58
  Speaker 2: Exactly. Exactly. I had a day a week and a
• 2:07:02
  half ago. Where I came back from Italy. I was
• 2:07:06
  a little jet lagged. I didn't sleep right. And I
• 2:07:09
  worked out really hard a bunch of days in a row.
• 2:07:11
  And I was working constantly. And then I had one
• 2:07:13
  day I was like, I kind of feel like shit.
• 2:07:16
  Like I better not do anything today. And, you know,
• 2:07:21
  after I was done work, I just watched TV and relaxed.
• 2:07:25
  And I was like, I can't wait to feel better again.
• 2:07:28
  Speaker 1: Well, imagine what it's like being old.
• 2:07:30
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 2:07:30
  Speaker 1: And frail. Yes. That's every day.
• 2:07:32
  Speaker 2: Yes, or sick.
• 2:07:33
  Speaker 1: And right now you can't do anything about it.
• 2:07:35
  Speaker 2: Yes. Yeah. And while you're healthy, you take it for granted,
• 2:07:40
  and that's the real sin. You're like, ah, I'm fine.
• 2:07:44
  I'm great. I mean, this is what people do when
• 2:07:46
  they go out drinking, right? They take advantage of the
• 2:07:48
  fact that it's worth it for a good time to
• 2:07:51
  just poison myself for a night.
• 2:07:53
  Speaker 1: Well, it's not worth it because that also accelerates uh
• 2:07:56
  aging but big time right that's what i tell my
• 2:07:58
  kids who like alcohol like most kids you know you
• 2:08:02
  might feel better in a few days but the memory
• 2:08:04
  of that is going to be in your body yeah
• 2:08:07
  you can drink it's you know it's fine to get
• 2:08:09
  drunk once in a while uh but not a lot
• 2:08:11
  not constantly i used to drink once a day and
• 2:08:14
  i do not do that anymore because the The data
• 2:08:16
  is incontrovertible that it affects the brain, even the size
• 2:08:19
  of the brain, if you drink constantly.
• 2:08:21
  Speaker 2: I took eight months off of no alcohol at all
• 2:08:24
  and I felt a lot better. I started drinking again
• 2:08:27
  one night. I went to dinner with my wife and
• 2:08:29
  had a margarita. I was like, ooh, I think I'm back. Ah, really?
• 2:08:34
  So I drink now, but I do not get drunk.
• 2:08:37
  I haven't gotten drunk. This was over a year ago.
• 2:08:39
  It was when I had a drink again, I think.
• 2:08:41
  I think it was a year. I'm not sure. But
• 2:08:43
  the point is I have not been drunk. Since then.
• 2:08:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 2:08:47
  Speaker 2: I will have a glass of wine with dinner or
• 2:08:49
  I will have like a shot of whiskey before I
• 2:08:53
  go on stage, like a little bit. But I do
• 2:08:56
  not get drunk anymore. It's just not worth it to me.
• 2:08:59
  The feeling afterwards is so terrible. The morning– and especially
• 2:09:03
  for me because I work out so much. When I
• 2:09:05
  wake up, it's like that workout is going to get done, OK?
• 2:09:08
  Whether I feel like shit or not, that workout is
• 2:09:10
  going to get done and this is going to be rough.
• 2:09:12
  Speaker 1: And then you got the sweats.
• 2:09:13
  Speaker 2: It's horrible.
• 2:09:13
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 2:09:14
  Speaker 2: Versus– When I feel great, I love the workout. I'm excited.
• 2:09:18
  Like I look forward to it. Even when it's hard,
• 2:09:21
  when it's over, I'm like, whew, all right, let's eat.
• 2:09:23
  And I don't feel bad. I feel good. And it's like,
• 2:09:27
  why am I giving up that for a few hours of,
• 2:09:32
  you know, it's just not worth it. It's not worth it. Yeah.
• 2:09:35
  Speaker 1: Well, you're funny even without alcohol, but I'm not. So
• 2:09:37
  I've lost a lot of my humor. But there's nothing
• 2:09:41
  better than feeling great, right?
• 2:09:42
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 2:09:43
  Speaker 1: Nothing better than feeling great. of working on your health
• 2:09:47
  and your longevity, you'll enjoy it. It shouldn't be a chore.
• 2:09:51
  Speaker 2: It'll also directly affect the other things that you love
• 2:09:55
  because you will have more energy. Your life energy, your
• 2:09:58
  vitality is so important for anything you're doing, whether it's
• 2:10:02
  a creative thing or an intellectual thing, like anything that
• 2:10:06
  you're doing, if you have more energy, You'll be able
• 2:10:08
  to apply more energy to that thing. It's that simple.
• 2:10:11
  You're building a bigger gas tank for yourself. You're building
• 2:10:15
  a larger engine. And that's what you're doing. Exactly.
• 2:10:18
  Speaker 1: Mentally, physically, you can do so much when you feel good.
• 2:10:21
  You jump out of bed. If you wake up and
• 2:10:22
  you're tired, woozy, your eyes are puffy, that's not how
• 2:10:27
  it should be when you wake up.
• 2:10:28
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 2:10:29
  Speaker 1: And sleep is important for longevity, of course. If you're
• 2:10:31
  getting good deep sleep, then you should wake up and
• 2:10:34
  you feel great.
• 2:10:35
  Speaker 2: Yes. Yes.
• 2:10:36
  Speaker 1: You don't even necessarily need a cup of coffee, but
• 2:10:39
  it's not bad if you have one.
• 2:10:40
  Speaker 2: I like coffee. I'm not going to stop drinking it.
• 2:10:42
  I don't give a fuck what anybody says. Right.
• 2:10:45
  Speaker 1: It's good.
• 2:10:45
  Speaker 2: And it's also like conflicting information. Some people say it's
• 2:10:48
  good for you. There's benefits.
• 2:10:50
  Speaker 1: It's good for you. Come on. That's what I say. Oh,
• 2:10:52
  it really is. Anyone that says it's not doesn't read
• 2:10:55
  the literature.
• 2:10:55
  Speaker 2: Well, I would imagine an overabundance of caffeine is not good.
• 2:11:01
  Too much is not good. But that's– It's true for everything.
• 2:11:03
  Too much salt will kill you. Yeah, exactly. If you
• 2:11:05
  eat a pound of salt, you'll be dead in an hour. Right.
• 2:11:07
  Speaker 1: And you can get away with very little sleep actually
• 2:11:09
  as long as it's deep sleep because what it's doing
• 2:11:12
  is clearing out the misfolded proteins in your brain and
• 2:11:15
  the toxins. We know this, the glymphatic system. And if
• 2:11:18
  you get deep sleep for an hour, you're actually going
• 2:11:22
  to wake up much cleaner, healthier. And what I've been
• 2:11:27
  able to do with some work is figure out how
• 2:11:30
  to get deep sleep every night. Efficiency on these rings
• 2:11:34
  that say above 90 sometimes.
• 2:11:36
  Speaker 2: I like you say rings because you're wearing two Aura rings.
• 2:11:40
  Different companies. Okay. Why do you wear two different rings?
• 2:11:47
  Speaker 1: Because when I've got two, neither of them is correct. No.
• 2:11:53
  The truth is some of them are really good for sleep.
• 2:11:56
  The others are good for heart. And so this one
• 2:11:59
  is my heart and this is my sleep.
• 2:12:01
  Speaker 2: What is the difference in the companies? Which one's which?
• 2:12:06
  Speaker 1: You don't mind me saying who they are? No, I
• 2:12:07
  don't care. This is an Aura, the fat one.
• 2:12:09
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 2:12:09
  Speaker 1: And then the thinner one is called Ultra Human.
• 2:12:11
  Speaker 2: Ultra Human. Yeah. And which one is good for what?
• 2:12:14
  Speaker 1: Well, I find Aura really good for sleep. That's their specialty.
• 2:12:18
  And then the heart for Ultra Human, my cardiac age.
• 2:12:22
  Speaker 2: Oh, okay. So it's just like giving you data all
• 2:12:24
  the time?
• 2:12:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and they're getting even better because they– I don't
• 2:12:28
  get paid by these companies, but– I do like that
• 2:12:31
  they pop up with AI information now. Have you noticed
• 2:12:34
  that da-da-da or I noticed that you ate a meal
• 2:12:37
  last night that spiked your glucose? And this one I
• 2:12:41
  have a monitor on right now so I can see
• 2:12:43
  what's going on anyway. But yeah, they're.
• 2:12:45
  Speaker 2: Becoming like a– You are fucking monitored, bro.
• 2:12:48
  Speaker 1: I am.
• 2:12:48
  Speaker 2: Two rings and a patch?
• 2:12:50
  Speaker 1: It's a hobby. It's a hobby. But you learn a
• 2:12:53
  lot and I put one of these on my son
• 2:12:55
  and he stopped eating bad food for a long while.
• 2:12:58
  Speaker 2: Really? Because he was just recognizing the impact that it.
• 2:13:00
  Speaker 1: Had on his body. It's good for kids. Now, I
• 2:13:02
  wouldn't say slap it on a kid without pediatrician recommendation,
• 2:13:07
  but it was amazing what happened when he could see
• 2:13:11
  the crap that was going in his mouth was doing
• 2:13:13
  to his blood sugar.
• 2:13:14
  Speaker 2: Really?
• 2:13:14
  Speaker 1: It was amazing. I think it's a great learning tool,
• 2:13:16
  if nothing else.
• 2:13:17
  Speaker 2: Right. Just to have actual data. I know a lot
• 2:13:20
  of people, it's changed their opinion on alcohol, particularly the
• 2:13:24
  Oura ring when they look at their sleep.
• 2:13:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 2:13:26
  Speaker 2: Because even just a couple of drinks before you go
• 2:13:29
  to bed, like a couple of drinks at dinner, and
• 2:13:31
  then you realize like, oh, God, my sleep was all
• 2:13:34
  fucked up because of those drinks.
• 2:13:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Lay off the modafinil too, for me anyway.
• 2:13:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Some modafinil fucks with your sleep as well? Yeah.
• 2:13:43
  Speaker 1: I have to work really hard to sleep well. There's
• 2:13:47
  quiet time. There's relaxation. The lights are dimmed. I think
• 2:13:51
  about a happy place rather than work. I had to
• 2:13:55
  do that because for 50 years I was burning the
• 2:13:56
  candle at all ends. I was really burnt out and
• 2:14:00
  so I've fixed that now. I don't worry.
• 2:14:01
  Speaker 2: So are you one of those guys that like dims
• 2:14:04
  the lights in your house a couple hours before you
• 2:14:06
  go to bed and prepare– stay off your phone, all
• 2:14:09
  that stuff?
• 2:14:10
  Speaker 1: Well, I don't stay off my phone as much as
• 2:14:12
  I want to, but yes.
• 2:14:13
  Speaker 2: Do you wear red light glasses or anything like blockers?
• 2:14:16
  I used to.
• 2:14:17
  Speaker 1: I haven't found a big difference for myself. But interesting
• 2:14:21
  fact that isn't well-known. If you block blue light during
• 2:14:24
  the day or just stay indoors, there's a guy in
• 2:14:27
  Japan who says that what happens is you get short-sightedness.
• 2:14:34
  Speaker 2: Really?
• 2:14:34
  Speaker 1: Because the mice that lack the ability to sense violet
• 2:14:38
  light get myopia, short-sighted. And he's got a device that
• 2:14:42
  indoors you can shine this. But our modern world, the LEDs,
• 2:14:46
  and being indoors means we barely get violet light. And
• 2:14:49
  that would be so interesting if that's what's causing... Last
• 2:14:52
  half have to wear glasses.
• 2:14:54
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 2:14:55
  Speaker 1: And he claims that people that live out in the
• 2:14:57
  countryside that see blue light all the time because they
• 2:14:59
  go out don't have as much need for glasses.
• 2:15:02
  Speaker 2: That actually makes sense. Well, particularly artificial light and then
• 2:15:06
  also light that's from a close source. Like one of
• 2:15:10
  the things that if I do, if I'm tired and
• 2:15:14
  I lay in bed and I try to read something
• 2:15:16
  online on my phone, it hurts my eyes. The room
• 2:15:19
  is dark. It irritates my eyes where it never irritates
• 2:15:23
  my eyes normally. But it's like at the end of
• 2:15:25
  the day, I guess I'm more fatigued.
• 2:15:28
  Speaker 1: And you're trying to focus on the screen.
• 2:15:30
  Speaker 2: So like now think about that when people are doing
• 2:15:33
  it all day long. Maybe you're doing it at work
• 2:15:35
  where you have to stare at a computer monitor from
• 2:15:37
  three feet away or closer. And then you're looking at
• 2:15:40
  your phone all the time or you're working from a
• 2:15:41
  tablet or you're watching television. It's like you're constantly staring
• 2:15:45
  at these light sources that are artificial.
• 2:15:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and also keep in mind that the muscles have
• 2:15:51
  to focus. You don't naturally look this far. You naturally relax.
• 2:15:55
  You see out there. But to look here, your muscles
• 2:15:57
  here have to be straining for hours, and they get
• 2:16:01
  very tired. And I guess eventually they age to a
• 2:16:04
  point where you cannot keep it up. And sometimes I
• 2:16:07
  do this to see better, though.
• 2:16:10
  Speaker 2: Well, it all makes sense if you think about it,
• 2:16:13
  particularly like if your eyes are accustomed to only focusing
• 2:16:16
  on things that are close. I mean that was what
• 2:16:18
  they would say about reading when people would have glasses. Oh,
• 2:16:20
  you fucked up your vision reading, which I used to
• 2:16:23
  think was nonsense. But I was like, well, it kind
• 2:16:26
  of makes sense if you spend all day long focusing–
• 2:16:29
  even though it's on a screen, you're spending all day
• 2:16:31
  long focusing on a book that's only a foot from
• 2:16:33
  your face. Yeah. It does make sense.
• 2:16:34
  Speaker 1: And the lens gets really inflexible.
• 2:16:37
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 2:16:37
  Speaker 1: And I'm seeing this with my father. He's otherwise in
• 2:16:39
  perfect health at 87, which is amazing. But it's his
• 2:16:42
  eyes that are failing him.
• 2:16:44
  Speaker 2: Maybe you should get him a red light bed.
• 2:16:46
  Speaker 1: That's a great idea.
• 2:16:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:16:48
  Speaker 1: I'm going to do that. He's arriving tonight actually from Sydney.
• 2:16:52
  He's an amazing guy.
• 2:16:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, get him a red light bet, man, because I'm
• 2:16:54
  telling you there's not a thing that I've done that's
• 2:16:57
  impacted me in a more obvious way than that in
• 2:17:01
  terms of like something that's hugely important.
• 2:17:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm going to do it. I mean he's into science.
• 2:17:05
  He's been taking NMN, resveratrol, metformin, exercising. He goes to
• 2:17:11
  the gym two or three times a week.
• 2:17:12
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's great. Yeah.
• 2:17:14
  Speaker 1: He's a role model at 87 with no diseases, no
• 2:17:17
  aches or pains. That's awesome. And he's traveling the world.
• 2:17:19
  He was in Japan two weeks ago.
• 2:17:21
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 2:17:22
  Speaker 1: Coming to Boston.
• 2:17:23
  Speaker 2: That's so cool. I love hearing about people that are
• 2:17:27
  older that just keep on top of it and stay
• 2:17:29
  active and stay alive and enjoy life.
• 2:17:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. He's a great role model. And what it
• 2:17:34
  shows is he was an average guy until he was
• 2:17:36
  in his 60s. And he figured he was going to
• 2:17:39
  die in his 70s probably because everyone in my family
• 2:17:41
  dies young because we've got pretty bad genes. But he's
• 2:17:44
  just taken life by the horns and just is running
• 2:17:47
  with it and has not physically aged. except for his
• 2:17:51
  eyes in the last 20 years.
• 2:17:53
  Speaker 2: That's incredible.
• 2:17:54
  Speaker 1: And that's not an exaggeration. Anyone who's seen him knows
• 2:17:57
  he walks, he moves, he travels, he does everything like
• 2:18:00
  he was when he was 40.
• 2:18:02
  Speaker 2: Things like resistance exercises are so important because it maintains
• 2:18:06
  bone density, maintains muscle mass. Maintains your ability to just
• 2:18:09
  get around and do things.
• 2:18:11
  Speaker 1: That's the other reason to do that. I mean, you're
• 2:18:14
  going to be really strong when you're older and you
• 2:18:16
  won't fall. And if you do fall, you'll bounce. You
• 2:18:18
  won't break a bone. And he's like that. He's been
• 2:18:21
  working out at the gym, mostly strength training, but balance
• 2:18:24
  as well. It's very important to maintain balance. He's better
• 2:18:27
  at the gym than me at 87.
• 2:18:29
  Speaker 2: That's incredible.
• 2:18:29
  Speaker 1: That just shows how weak I am. Yeah, I got
• 2:18:33
  to go to the gym. How about next time if
• 2:18:36
  you have me on?
• 2:18:37
  Speaker 2: You're going to be buff. We'll get you a trainer.
• 2:18:40
  You're in Massachusetts. There's a ton of trainers out there. Great.
• 2:18:43
  It's a deal. We'll find you someone. We'll find you someone.
• 2:18:47
  Three days a week. That's all you need. The other days,
• 2:18:49
  you could do stuff elective. Do stuff that you want.
• 2:18:54
  But three days a week, get a personal trainer and
• 2:18:56
  work out with them.
• 2:18:57
  Speaker 1: You're on.
• 2:18:58
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 2:18:59
  Speaker 1: I will let you know when it's going or you
• 2:19:01
  help me. I can hear though that there's probably a
• 2:19:04
  few million people right now screaming, David, just go to
• 2:19:06
  the lab. Forget about the gym.
• 2:19:08
  Speaker 2: You need to Well, it will help your lab work.
• 2:19:10
  It will help everything. It will help the amount of
• 2:19:12
  research you're able to do. You'll have more energy. You'll
• 2:19:14
  be more excited about things. I'm sure you've seen those
• 2:19:17
  MRI cross-sections of people's tissue where they take like a
• 2:19:21
  70-year-old man who's sedentary versus a 70-year-old man who's a
• 2:19:25
  marathon runner. It's fucking extraordinary.
• 2:19:28
  Speaker 1: I've seen my own. There's too much fat in the muscle.
• 2:19:31
  Got to get rid of it.
• 2:19:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. It's really extraordinary when you see those images.
• 2:19:36
  Like those really bring it home.
• 2:19:37
  Speaker 1: And the bone changes. Bone turns to fat too, parts
• 2:19:41
  of the bone. So you've got to have the strength
• 2:19:44
  training for sure.
• 2:19:44
  Speaker 2: 100%. Keep your bones strong. Yeah, 100%. Strength training is–
• 2:19:49
  that's mandatory.
• 2:19:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And then do you do a lot of aerobic exercises?
• 2:19:53
  Speaker 2: Yes. Good. Yeah.
• 2:19:54
  Speaker 1: I saw the training bike.
• 2:19:56
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. Well, you saw my hypoxia machine that I
• 2:19:59
  just got installed today. Yeah. Yeah. The– The hypoxia thing,
• 2:20:05
  what it does is it replicates 14,000 feet above sea level.
• 2:20:10
  And you train in it. And it also has a
• 2:20:13
  heat element so you could ramp the heat up to
• 2:20:15
  115 degrees. So 115 degrees and 14,000 feet above sea level.
• 2:20:19
  What's that? Machu Picchu kind of stuff? Yeah. You're going
• 2:20:22
  to hell. That's what it is. You're going straight to hell.
• 2:20:25
  Speaker 1: It'll feel like it. But it should work, right? Hypoxia
• 2:20:28
  is great for muscle.
• 2:20:29
  Speaker 2: Yes, and for adaptation. That's the big thing. And my
• 2:20:32
  friend Roman who installed it, who's one of the guys
• 2:20:35
  from the company, they're very specific with this protocol in
• 2:20:41
  terms of monitoring your heart rate, when to do it,
• 2:20:43
  when to push, how much time to spend and how
• 2:20:46
  you do it. And it's very scientific in terms of
• 2:20:49
  the application on athletes. And my friend Adam Greentree turned
• 2:20:53
  me on to it, fellow Australian. And he's a big
• 2:21:00
  hunter and does a lot of mountain hunting. And he
• 2:21:02
  said there's nothing he's ever done that's had more of
• 2:21:04
  an impact on his cardio. So it's been phenomenal.
• 2:21:07
  Speaker 1: Sounds wonderful, actually. There's a lot of science behind that.
• 2:21:11
  You probably know it. The best results are when people
• 2:21:16
  are either having too much oxygen or not enough. And
• 2:21:21
  you might say, well, that's weird. Why does it matter? Well,
• 2:21:23
  you got to get out of your comfort zone, hormesis
• 2:21:25
  we keep talking about. And there's a big study in
• 2:21:30
  Israel where they put people in these hyperbaric chambers.
• 2:21:33
  Speaker 2: I've done that protocol. Yeah. Yeah. 60 sessions of 90
• 2:21:37
  minutes over 90 days.
• 2:21:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 2:21:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I have one in my house.
• 2:21:41
  Speaker 1: You do?
• 2:21:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:21:42
  Speaker 1: Because the data is intercontrovertible, better wound healing, better memory.
• 2:21:46
  Speaker 2: Increase in telomere length. Yeah.
• 2:21:47
  Speaker 1: I saw that one. That's the Israel study.
• 2:21:50
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 2:21:51
  Speaker 1: What I thought was interesting was when I went over
• 2:21:53
  there myself and sat in that thing, they made a
• 2:21:56
  joke over there in Israel, by the way. They said,
• 2:21:59
  this gas chamber here that you're going into, made by Germans.
• 2:22:02
  I thought, that's not a funny joke. Don't say that again. Anyway,
• 2:22:06
  I probably shouldn't have shared that. I did go into
• 2:22:09
  the chamber. And what I found out was that they
• 2:22:13
  believe what I believe, which is it's not so much
• 2:22:16
  the high pressure that's good for you. It's the coming down.
• 2:22:19
  that mimics hypoxia, which your room will mimic. So the
• 2:22:22
  lack of oxygen or the perceived lack of oxygen from
• 2:22:25
  a high state is the benefit.
• 2:22:27
  Speaker 2: Interesting.
• 2:22:28
  Speaker 1: And that makes a lot of sense. You're going to
• 2:22:29
  grow new blood vessels, just like Viagra is going to
• 2:22:32
  open things up. We actually had a paper, 2012, that
• 2:22:37
  found that one of the supplements that I take, which
• 2:22:40
  everyone knows about NMN, could allow animals to grow new
• 2:22:44
  blood vessels by getting rid of a protein that accumulates
• 2:22:49
  with aging. The bottom line is we could mimic this
• 2:22:54
  lack of blood vessels with this pill, but by exercising,
• 2:22:57
  it's the same. What I really believe, which is barely
• 2:23:03
  talked about in the medical establishment, is that a major
• 2:23:05
  reason we get sick when we get older is lack
• 2:23:08
  of blood flow. It's rarely talked about, right? Vascular dementia,
• 2:23:12
  second largest cause of dementia in the world, blood flow.
• 2:23:17
  And it's the easiest to reverse. You just do exercise
• 2:23:20
  or take one of these PDE5 inhibitors, Viagra. Or you
• 2:23:25
  take my stuff, which is NMN, which we think also works.
• 2:23:28
  Speaker 2: Or all the above, which is probably the best approach.
• 2:23:31
  Speaker 1: I'm two out of three. Hopefully soon three out of three.
• 2:23:36
  But yeah, to protect your brain, which is the most
• 2:23:39
  important because you don't want to be old and demented.
• 2:23:41
  That's worse than anything. Keep the blood flowing in your body.
• 2:23:44
  Remember that. Blood flowing is important. Yes.
• 2:23:47
  Speaker 2: Couldn't agree more. David, you're a treasure. I really appreciate you.
• 2:23:52
  Thank you for being here.
• 2:23:53
  Speaker 1: You've been so kind. And thank you for getting the
• 2:23:55
  word out here about the great science that's going on.
• 2:23:57
  Speaker 2: Oh, my pleasure, dude. I'm so happy there's someone like
• 2:24:00
  you out there doing this. I mean, it's such an
• 2:24:03
  enormous benefit to people that are listening to the world.
• 2:24:07
  And you're doing– you're literally doing God's work.
• 2:24:09
  Speaker 1: We'll try to do more.
• 2:24:10
  Speaker 2: Thank you very much. Thank you, sir. Lifespan.com is the website. Please, folks,
• 2:24:16
  if you're so inclined, go donate. It'll really help. It'll
• 2:24:19
  change the world. David, love you too. Thank you. Bye, everybody.