Latest / Future Christian / Church Decline, Evangelism, and Renewal: A Conversation with Ben Crosby

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Church Decline, Evangelism, and Renewal: A Conversation with Ben Crosby · Future Christian

0:07
>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
0:10
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
0:12
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
0:16
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors,
0:19
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
0:21
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
0:24
walk boldly into the future. Whether
0:27
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
0:30
of your faith community, this podcast is
0:33
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
0:36
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
0:39
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
0:44
>> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
0:47
Martha Tatarnick welcomes the Reverend Ben Crosby to the
0:49
show. Ben Crosby is a priest of the
0:52
Episcopal Church usa, currently serving in
0:55
the Anglican Church of Canada. He is also
0:58
a PhD student in ecclesiastical history
1:01
at, uh, McGill University, where he studies the
1:04
English Reformation. Ben is passionate
1:07
about church renewal in the contemporary mainline
1:10
Christian discipleship and spirituality, and what the
1:12
Christian past, especially the 16th century,
1:16
might have to say about Christian life today. He has
1:18
been published in Plough, the Anglin Way,
1:22
Earthen Altar, the Hour, and Faith
1:24
Lead. You can read more@Ben
1:28
Crosby.substack.com as always, please take
1:30
a moment to subscribe and review the
1:33
podcast. We appreciate it. Also, if you can share this episode
1:36
with a friend, you can connect with Martha and
1:39
Loren and Future Christian on Instagram.
1:42
Thanks, and as always, enjoy the show.
1:54
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I am your
1:57
host for today's episode, Martha
1:59
Tatarnic. And today I'm really happy to be
2:02
joined by the Reverend Ben Crosby.
2:05
Welcome, Ben. It's so great to have been able to line
2:08
up this conversation with you.
2:10
>> Ben Crosby: Thanks so much, Martha. Yes, really glad to be here.
2:13
Yeah.
2:13
>> Martha Tatarnic: And Ben is joining us from across the
2:15
pond, as they say. So we're
2:18
navigating some different time zones and,
2:21
uh, all of that jazz. But I'm so
2:24
grateful that we were able to make this work
2:27
in your busy schedule.
2:31
So let's, um, start with some opening
2:33
questions so that our listeners can get to know you a little bit.
2:36
Ben, maybe you can just share with us
2:39
a bit about your faith journey, what it has
2:42
looked like in the past and what it looks like
2:44
now.
2:46
>> Ben Crosby: Absolutely. Um, so I am a priest
2:49
of the Episcopal Church in the United States, um,
2:52
currently serving in the Anglican
2:54
Church of Canada while I am pursuing a doctoral
2:58
studies, um, at McGill University in
3:00
Montreal. I, um, didn't grow up
3:02
Anglican, though. I actually grew up in the Lutheran
3:05
Church. The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod.
3:08
Oh, okay, yes, um, exactly.
3:11
Uh, found my way, uh, sort of around college
3:14
to the main line over Questions
3:17
like the place of women or LGBTQ people
3:20
in the church, um, and ended up
3:23
after spending some time sort of figuring
3:26
out the uh, Lutheran versus Anglican question, sort of
3:29
felt like the Episcopal Church in the States or
3:31
Anglican Church in Canada would sort of be the best home,
3:34
you know, pursued ordination.
3:37
Um, there have been a priest for
3:40
a couple of years now. Um, I
3:43
think for me one of the most important moments
3:46
of my faith journey
3:49
was um, a moment really in the middle
3:52
of college
3:55
where, well, the way I like to say it is I
3:58
think I was, I was finally forced to confront, um,
4:01
grace as reality and not just a sort of theological
4:04
postulate.
4:05
>> Martha Tatarnic: Right.
4:05
>> Ben Crosby: You know, I, I, I, I grew up in a church that
4:08
certainly talked a lot about, about grace, about
4:10
salvation being God's work, not ours, about our,
4:14
our relationship with God not resting on our own
4:16
accomplishments and efforts, but as a sort of
4:20
type A high achiever in kind of North
4:22
American culture. I, uh, could say the right words, but
4:25
maybe didn't quite feel that in my heart. Um, but I think
4:28
had a, had a moment in college where I actually
4:31
really struggled, um, with
4:34
both, um, physical and mental illness. Had to take a
4:37
little time off from school and
4:39
finally, um, yes, forced, was forced to this
4:42
place where I could no longer achieve or
4:45
accomplish or sort of do much of
4:47
all or much of anything rather. And was
4:50
forced I think, to really
4:53
accept, um, God's love
4:56
and, and the love of those around me as something that
4:59
is, is not
5:02
earned by, by me, you know, ticking all the right
5:04
boxes, but it's just given out of, out of sheer and
5:07
unmerited love. Um, and so
5:10
I hope that, um, that
5:13
sharing the grace that I have received, um,
5:16
is at the heart of, of my own ministry and, and
5:19
Christian life today.
5:21
>> Martha Tatarnic: Well, my gosh, as a fellow Type A,
5:24
can I ever relate to what you just said?
5:27
Yeah, um, it's
5:29
amazing how easily
5:32
I can slip into the striving
5:35
and the box ticking.
5:37
Ah. And yet God has a way
5:40
of confronting me with
5:43
my own weaknesses and with the reality of
5:45
grace.
5:46
So, yeah, um, do you want to just
5:49
tell our listeners a little bit about what you're doing now
5:52
and why you're across the pond?
5:54
>> Ben Crosby: Yeah, absolutely. So I'm doing,
5:57
as I said, a doctorate in church history right now at
6:00
McGill. I study the
6:03
Church of England during the reign of Queen
6:06
Elizabeth, uh, I, so the second half of the
6:09
16th century, um, looking at the relationship
6:12
between the, uh, Church of England and the
6:14
Reformed and Lutheran churches on the continent. Um,
6:17
and so I've had an opportunity with my Wife, who's actually also
6:20
a church history PhD student to, uh, spend a
6:23
year doing some research
6:25
abroad. Um, and so we have been in the
6:28
UK for a couple of months now, and we'll be
6:31
in, uh, Zurich for most of the rest of the spring. And
6:34
it's just been really a great
6:37
gift and blessing to, uh, get to spend time
6:40
in the places where it happened, uh, for the things that
6:43
I study and visit some, um,
6:46
some archives, see some manuscripts that I can't see
6:49
anywhere other than being in person and getting to,
6:52
uh. Yeah, meet with, um, some
6:54
Reformation scholars sort of over here and in
6:57
Switzerland.
6:58
>> Martha Tatarnic: Oh, my gosh. Okay, well, we have to have some offline
7:01
conversations because I'm working on a book
7:04
about Anne Boleyn and her influence on
7:07
the Reformation, and it's coming out next year.
7:09
So can we talk?
7:12
Uh, that would be really, really helpful.
7:14
>> Ben Crosby: Yeah, that sounds like great fun. I would love to do that.
7:17
>> Martha Tatarnic: Oh, my gosh. Okay. I had no idea that was your
7:20
topic. So this is just really
7:23
exciting. I find it hard
7:26
these days to talk about anything other than
7:28
16th century Tudor England. So,
7:31
um, yeah, God must have brought us
7:34
together for this conversation.
7:36
>> Ben Crosby: Amen.
7:38
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, so, um, not
7:41
to take all our listeners down that rabbit hole
7:44
right now, but, uh, Ben, is there a
7:46
spiritual practice that, uh, is particularly
7:49
meaningful to you right now as you're in the midst of all,
7:52
ah, of these exciting, um,
7:55
studies and traveling abroad?
7:58
>> Ben Crosby: Yeah, I think one of the things that has really
8:01
been the anchor of my spiritual life
8:05
for. For a long time now, actually for,
8:07
um.
8:10
Yeah, probably 15, 15 years. And, um,
8:13
was really instrumental in leading me to the Anglican Church,
8:16
actually, is the, uh, the daily office. So spending
8:19
some time in. In the morning and in the evening
8:22
praying psalms, sort of being steeped in scripture,
8:25
having. Yes. Uh, praying for
8:28
the. For the church, for the world. You know, I
8:31
think as someone for whom
8:34
extemporaneous prayer does not always
8:37
come easily, I think having
8:40
sort of words to say, words given to me by
8:43
God to say the words of the psalms, the words of
8:46
scripture, to sort of. To take in, to
8:48
internalize, to spend time with,
8:51
um, every day, day in, day out,
8:54
year in, year out, um, is
8:57
really such a blessing. Um, and so I
8:59
think. Yes, I think. I think the daily office,
9:02
morning and evening prayer, um, can't say enough
9:05
good things about it as sort of
9:08
grounding my spiritual life and
9:11
just my life in general.
9:13
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, it's amazing how many people we talk
9:16
to in these interviews who
9:18
say. Who name that as, like, such a powerful
9:21
spiritual practice and not just Anglicans.
9:24
Um, I find it really interesting and you know, as
9:27
somebody who's quite like naturally
9:29
introverted, um, it is
9:32
the words that God gives us, but
9:34
it's also the words that connect us to
9:37
community even when we're alone, which
9:40
is I find extremely
9:43
powerful.
9:44
>> Ben Crosby: No, that's really well said. There's something very special about
9:47
knowing even as you say, if you are just praying it by
9:50
yourself, that you are praying the same prayers that
9:52
Christians across the world are praying, that Christians
9:55
across time are praying. I mean it does feel
9:58
there's like this very. Yes. Concrete
10:01
way to uh, be part of the communion of
10:04
saints.
10:05
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah, you can really feel that.
10:08
All right, well thank you for um, just
10:11
giving us that little sketch. So I
10:14
want to talk about um, some
10:17
of your writing in particular, but let's just talk about
10:20
your writing in general to start with. Uh,
10:22
you write a regular substack
10:25
blog and um, you
10:27
reflect on a variety of topics that contribute
10:30
to the life the Anglican Church and I think
10:33
the church in general. Um,
10:36
are there like main areas of interest
10:39
for you as a Christian writer and leader?
10:42
Is there a theme to the blogs and articles that you write
10:45
or is it just sort of following
10:48
uh, the spirit?
10:51
>> Ben Crosby: Yeah, good question. I mean I
10:53
think, you know, if I think about them, I think they
10:56
probably tend to fall into a couple of
10:59
overlapping categories. Um,
11:02
I think one, and I know we're going to be talking a little bit about
11:04
this, um, for most of our
11:07
conversation today is kind of the
11:10
question of the state of the mainline, um, about
11:13
what sort of renewal might look like
11:15
in the mainline, what sort of cleaving more closely
11:18
to Jesus might look like, um, for
11:21
us in this time of particular
11:24
sort of challenges and stresses in a lot of our church
11:27
bodies. Um, I think I'm
11:30
also interested in
11:33
discipleship and spirituality. Sort m
11:36
of thinking about what for me and what perhaps for
11:39
others as well, um, might be
11:42
a pathway into uh,
11:44
deeper life with Christ to a life that
11:47
is sort of patterned more fully
11:50
as a grateful response to what God has
11:53
done for us in Christ Jesus. Um,
11:56
and then the third, um, is really trying I
11:59
guess to bridge the gap a little bit between
12:03
my academic work and my more sort of public
12:06
facing writing or day to day ministry, sort of
12:08
asking um, what
12:11
church history and perhaps especially
12:15
the 16th century that I spend most of my time in, um,
12:17
as an academic, what it might have to
12:20
um, tell us to enrich
12:23
our lives of faith today. Um, so
12:26
renewal, um, discipleship and
12:28
spirituality and um, sort of
12:31
church history for the present. I think
12:34
those are the sorts of themes that I'm trying to, uh,
12:37
reflect and foster a conversation about.
12:40
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that those are
12:43
such important themes. And I really like
12:46
that you tie in the church history
12:48
piece into that conversation as well,
12:51
because I think that we're in such a
12:54
moment in history,
12:56
and I think that translates
12:59
into the life of the church as well, where, you know, if
13:02
we don't remember where we've been, I think it's really
13:05
hard to be faithful about where we're going.
13:08
>> Ben Crosby: Yeah, I think that's absolutely right.
13:11
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
13:12
Okay, so you got a lot of
13:15
air time, um, for an article that you
13:18
wrote just before Christmas called the Current State
13:21
of the Anglican Church. There was a lot
13:24
of online conversation about it. I know in
13:27
Anglican circles, um, it really packed
13:30
a punch. And,
13:32
um, obviously
13:35
we're having this conversation on future Christian
13:37
because I think that,
13:39
uh, the topic
13:42
is relevant way beyond just the
13:45
Anglican Church. Um, but we need
13:48
to kind of frame this article, the Current State
13:51
of the Anglican Church, uh, on
13:54
another article that came out this
13:57
past August and that also got a
13:59
lot of airtime. So I think we just need
14:02
to recap that initial article so
14:05
that then we can talk about your response to that
14:08
article. And if you'll indulge me for a
14:11
moment, I'm just gonna read directly
14:13
from your piece, um, that
14:16
article that you wrote where you recap
14:19
the August article. Hopefully our listeners are not
14:22
getting too confused by all of these
14:25
articles. Okay, so I'm just reading
14:28
from your piece,
14:30
um, this summary.
14:34
David Goodhue published a piece in the
14:37
Living Church's Covenant blog entitled the
14:40
Collapse of the Anglican Church of Canada,
14:43
in which he argued the Anglican Church of Canada
14:46
is the first province of the Anglican Communion
14:49
to have collapsed. He pointed out
14:52
a sharp decline in average Sunday attendance,
14:54
but stressed that attendance decline,
14:57
along with financial woes, are
15:00
lagging indicators. Rather, he
15:03
argued that the key metrics of
15:05
ecclesial health are baptism numbers
15:08
and age profile, and that on these
15:11
measures the ACC has already
15:14
collapsed with no recovery in
15:16
sight. He blames this decline in
15:19
particular on the Anglican Church of Canada,
15:21
Canada's progressivism, and in particular
15:24
a focus on progressive causes
15:27
which led to individual discipleship
15:30
and church growth being
15:32
minimized. So I think that
15:35
offers us a fair summary
15:38
of an article that
15:41
got a lot of Canadian
15:44
Anglicans really up in
15:46
arms. Um, and
15:49
I really, really appreciate there were a bunch of
15:52
responses to that David Goodhue
15:54
piece. Um, but I really appreciated
15:57
your response as a, uh,
16:00
very measured and thoughtful
16:02
response. And I think that,
16:04
um, having a Conversation with you
16:07
to kind of dig into some of those
16:10
claims that he makes is, um,
16:13
really important. And again, I
16:15
think it just needs to be stressed that
16:18
although this singled out the Anglican Church
16:21
of Canada, it really should put mainline
16:24
churches everywhere on blast
16:27
because, um, you know, the things
16:30
that he talks about are
16:33
relevant way beyond the acc.
16:36
So what do you think was most
16:39
helpful about this article or,
16:42
like, what most needed to
16:45
be heard in what David
16:47
Goodhue was arguing?
16:52
>> Ben Crosby: Yeah, I mean, I think
16:56
he was
16:58
willing. The fact that he's coming from outside
17:01
the ACC might have made it easier for him to do so,
17:05
but, um, I think he was willing to just be
17:08
very blunt
17:11
about the
17:14
first of all, the sort of numerical realities
17:17
of our church right now, um, and of what
17:20
those numerical realities mean
17:23
for how we think about whether
17:26
or not, um, the church is doing,
17:29
um, what God has commissioned it to
17:32
do. So I think he
17:34
has, yeah, forced us,
17:37
you know, perhaps even in a, uh, in an
17:40
occasionally somewhat sharp way, um, to
17:43
really look hard at,
17:44
um, at how the church
17:47
is. Is doing. You know, I think it's. It's so
17:50
easy, um, to
17:53
look and see. Well, you know, we. We still have functioning
17:55
dioceses, we still have functioning parishes. You know, the kind of.
17:58
The institution is sort of, you know, still kind
18:01
of moving on. And it's. It's easy to look at that and just assume,
18:04
well, it, you know, it sort of always will. You know, things may not be great,
18:07
but they're more or less okay. Um, and I think
18:10
his article was an invitation to ask,
18:13
well, what if things aren't actually okay?
18:16
What if we really are in a crisis?
18:19
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
18:20
So let's talk about that numbers game
18:24
a little bit because,
18:26
um, I mean, he certainly
18:29
says, and you agree with him, that numbers
18:32
do matter. Um, that
18:35
church growth, numbers and,
18:38
um, numbers of people attending
18:41
our churches, the ages of those people,
18:44
numbers being baptized, that this all
18:47
matters. Um,
18:49
so, you know, I want to talk about kind of
18:52
the pushback to that mattering, but what
18:55
would be like, kind of your main,
18:59
um, reason for saying, yeah, like these
19:02
statistics do tell us
19:05
truth?
19:07
>> Ben Crosby: Yeah, I, um, think. I would say just
19:10
at the most basic level
19:13
that I think numbers matter
19:16
because I think people knowing
19:19
Jesus matters. And I think that the
19:22
not perhaps the only, but the normative
19:25
way that people come to know Jesus, um, is
19:28
through the ministry of the church.
19:31
Um, and so, you know, I
19:34
think that it's not just that.
19:37
Well, you know, for institutional maintenance,
19:40
we need to, you know, have people in the pews, although we do
19:43
for institutional Maintenance, um, it's not even
19:46
that for doing these sort of,
19:48
um, sort of social justice witness
19:51
that many in our church at present really, really want to
19:54
sort of foreground as thought as a central
19:57
part of what we do that you need to you know, have people
20:00
around to do that effectively. Although again you
20:02
do. But at the
20:05
most basic level I think that the numbers matter
20:08
because people being Christian
20:11
matters and that behind those
20:14
numbers at some level each of those numbers
20:17
is a person who
20:20
has come to know God
20:23
in Jesus, um, or
20:26
hasn't. Um, and so
20:29
yes, at the most basic level I think that numbers matter
20:31
because people knowing Jesus matters and those
20:34
numbers not perfectly sure, but
20:37
really do reflect that happening or not.
20:40
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, uh, and I really appreciate your tying
20:43
like knowing Jesus to the life of the
20:45
church because you know the thing that I
20:48
kind of say all the time is like
20:52
if we want to walk with Jesus, then we are
20:55
stuck with each other. Like that is like the
20:58
church is kind of a non negotiable terms
21:01
of how Jesus set it up anyway. Like we
21:04
might wanna, we might be quite
21:06
tempted to think it would just be a lot easier to
21:09
follow Jesus on our own. Especially
21:13
when you know, the church can be so
21:15
frustrating and broken and
21:17
sinful and you know there's
21:20
lots of times I think that all of us just want to leave it
21:23
behind, but that's actually
21:27
not on the table. Like
21:29
as a um, possibility for
21:32
um, being a follower of Jesus, we do have
21:35
to um, be part of the life of
21:38
community.
21:39
>> Ben Crosby: I think that's really well said. I mean if you look at, you
21:42
know, the language that Paul uses in his epistles
21:45
of being members of a body, I mean
21:48
that, that requires as you say, being together. I mean
21:51
the picture that we get of the church, uh,
21:54
throughout the book of Acts, it's sort of people
21:56
coming to know Jes and then coming
21:59
to live a life of worship and service
22:03
together as you say. I think it's non
22:05
negotiable when it comes to following Jesus.
22:09
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, so I have some of my own thoughts
22:11
about why um, there has been
22:14
reluctance to agree that
22:17
uh, stats and numbers
22:19
matter. Um, certainly there
22:22
is pushback in our mainline
22:25
circles around agreeing that
22:28
um, you can establish
22:31
church health simply based on the
22:34
metrics. But uh, what do you
22:36
think that pushback is about?
22:39
>> Ben Crosby: Yeah, that's a great question. Um, I think there are
22:42
a couple of things going on, at least it seems
22:44
to me. You know, I think there are those
22:47
who rightly enough want to
22:50
draw our attention to the fact that
22:53
the moments when the churches were
22:56
Larger, um, were also moments in which, you
22:59
know, our churches were failing to follow Jesus.
23:02
Well, and in some ways, I mean, in Canada, of course, we talk
23:05
a lot, as we should, about the relationship between
23:08
the church and indigenous peoples, the history of the residential
23:10
schools, so forth. And, um. So I
23:13
think people can get worried
23:16
that, you know, the sort of suggestion that, uh,
23:20
numbers matter is a call to, you
23:22
know, return entirely, um,
23:25
to sort of an earlier model of church
23:28
that was not perfect in some significant
23:30
ways. Right. You know, I think there's also
23:34
a very keen awareness, which I think is
23:37
true enough, that, you know, in moments in
23:39
which, um, Christianity is more
23:42
close, uh, more culturally supported
23:45
than it is now, you know, the mere fact then
23:48
that someone's going to church, um, doesn't
23:51
necessarily mean that they are a, uh, deeply committed
23:54
disciple of Jesus. That, you know, social pressures and things like
23:57
that, you, um, know, are sort of
23:59
caused a lot of people to go to church, um,
24:02
in the past. And then again,
24:05
true enough, as far as that goes, I mean, all things
24:07
considered, I'd rather have people in an opportunity
24:10
to hear the gospel than not. Uh,
24:13
but I do take the point. Um,
24:16
I do also think that.
24:19
And this is one, uh, conversation that I think we often
24:22
struggle to have because it's a hard one. But
24:25
I think that one of
24:28
the reasons there is pushback is that there is real
24:31
disagreement in our churches about whether or
24:33
not people following Jesus or not
24:36
actually matters. Right. You know, I think there's
24:39
a strain in our
24:41
church that says, well, you know, if people are, uh,
24:44
finding a way to live that
24:47
enables them to do good to their neighbor and find
24:50
meaning and so on, you know, does it really matter so
24:53
much, um, if that's, you know, under the auspices
24:56
of Christianity or
24:59
not? Um, you know, I think the
25:01
claim that there is something
25:05
unique about Jesus that means
25:08
that people should come and follow and devote their
25:11
lives to him, um, does rub
25:14
up against, um, some of the ways that I think
25:17
we are accustomed to talk and
25:19
live in an increasingly sort of pluralistic, to
25:22
say nothing of secular society. And,
25:25
you know, and certainly there are unhelpful ways to
25:28
make that argument to people. Um,
25:31
but I don't know. I just.
25:34
Both looking at the experience of my own life, looking at the
25:36
testimony of Scripture, I can't
25:39
really escape the claim that
25:43
if Jesus really is good news, he's good news for
25:46
everyone and that we have a responsibility to share
25:49
that good news with everyone.
25:51
Um, and I think that's something that there is
25:54
some genuine disagreement about in a lot of mainline Churches
25:57
today.
26:00
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that those are
26:03
two such insightful points
26:06
and I appreciate them being linked
26:08
to one another because, you know, I think
26:11
the piece around
26:14
recognizing that the numbers tell us something,
26:17
but they don't tell us the whole story is really
26:19
important. Like you can have churches full of
26:22
people and be really far away from Jesus,
26:26
um, in certain ways anyway.
26:29
Um, but yeah,
26:32
I, um, think that's also just really helpful to name
26:35
that in a pluralistic society.
26:38
Uh, we haven't
26:41
found a really, um, helpful,
26:44
consistent way of talking about
26:46
Jesus mattering.
26:48
Um, yeah.
26:52
Okay. So
26:55
I wanna. I feel like
26:58
there's a lot more we could dig into there. But I do
27:00
wanna talk about a few
27:03
other pieces and then maybe circle
27:06
back to the proclamation piece
27:09
and the evangelism.
27:10
P. So, um, Loren was
27:12
really disappointed that he couldn't be part of
27:15
today's conversation. He's been wanting to talk to you for a
27:18
long time. And initially we tried to
27:21
coordinate all three of our schedules, but we failed.
27:24
So, um, anyway, he sent along a few
27:26
questions. So I'm going to just share one of his
27:29
questions with you. He says in
27:32
some evangelical circles, social justice
27:35
can be seen as a distraction from
27:38
evangelism as opposed to a necessary
27:40
part. Whereas it seems the opposite is true in
27:43
mainline circles that, uh, any talk of spiritual
27:46
conversion can be seen as a distraction
27:49
from social justice. So what are your thoughts about
27:52
that? What is the place of social
27:55
justice and being an agent of
27:57
societal change in the life of the church?
28:00
>> Ben Crosby: Yeah, I think this is
28:03
another very good question. Um, so a
28:06
little bit about me that may be helpful for this.
28:08
So before I was a minister, um, I was a union
28:11
organizer, actually with the hotel workers
28:14
Union in Boston,
28:16
Massachusetts. Um, so spent
28:19
and spent a good deal of time in the sort
28:22
of labor organizing and kind of
28:25
labor politics world. It's one that I know well
28:27
and it's one that I care a lot about.
28:31
Um, and it's also one that I chose to leave when I
28:34
became a minister. And so,
28:37
you know, I think my
28:40
immediate answer is that.
28:43
I think. I think Loren is right to point this out. And I think
28:45
the sort of very
28:48
sharp division, um, between,
28:51
you know, sort of gospel proclamation
28:54
and, you know, kind of doing, um, sort of striving to do
28:57
good, strive for a just for society in the world,
29:00
um, is a mistake. Um, so that's
29:03
the first thing that I think that, you know, the evangelical
29:06
version that is sort of wholly unwilling to talk
29:08
about a kind of Christian social responsibility or the sort
29:11
of stereotyped evangelical Version and similar, particularly
29:14
the stereotyped sort of mainline version that
29:17
reduces Christianity to um, sort of
29:20
central left politics and nothing more. I think both of
29:23
those miss the mark. Um,
29:26
that said, I do think
29:30
that while there is a place for
29:32
both that sort of
29:35
proclamation, evangelism,
29:38
discipleship are. Are uniquely
29:41
the work of the institutional church in a way
29:44
that justice work isn't right.
29:47
I mean, I think, and this is something that I've said before,
29:50
if I thought that my primary
29:53
vocation as a Christian in the world
29:56
is to work for justice, and I think that that
29:58
is a good and holy and Christian
30:01
vocation, I would still be a union organizer.
30:04
I wouldn't be uh, a mainline Protestant
30:07
minister. I mean I, I think
30:10
there is a,
30:11
uh. Yeah, I think that
30:14
oftentimes those who really want to just sort of
30:17
hit hard on the kind of church as an organ
30:20
of justice, um, ironically just like
30:23
aren't terribly realistic about what,
30:26
you know, small
30:28
and shrinking denominations, um, actually
30:32
have the. The wherewithal to. To accomplish
30:34
concretely um, for the good of the
30:37
world. Um, and so I think that
30:40
much of the church's work sort of as
30:43
church as institution rather than churches as sort
30:46
of the body of Christ, all Christians
30:49
is to sort of give people
30:52
the nourishment theologically
30:55
and spiritually and the sort of grounding that
30:58
enables them to go out, um, in
31:01
their life, whatever it is, and
31:03
work for. For justice. And I think there are
31:06
certainly times and places where it is important for
31:09
the church as institution to
31:12
um, take a stand,
31:15
um, for sure. But
31:17
I really do worry that if we see
31:20
ourselves as primarily a uh,
31:23
not very good or effective social service
31:25
agency, uh, rather than primarily
31:28
about um, proclaiming the good news
31:31
of redemption in Jesus Christ and inviting
31:34
people into a life of gratitude following on
31:36
that, that we. That we've kind of missed the mark
31:39
and have. Have failed to
31:42
either pursue proclamation or pursue
31:45
justice, um, in the way that we are most suited to do.
31:49
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I, um. To
31:52
some degree I find the. The
31:55
either or nature of that
31:58
conversation a bit confusing. And I
32:01
mean I say this as somebody who's life has been
32:04
entirely in the mainline church, but
32:06
even statistically
32:09
it seems here in Canada anyway
32:12
to be really clear that
32:15
churchgoing Christians,
32:19
um, are hugely
32:22
responsible for
32:24
um, underwriting the social safety net
32:27
in some pretty
32:29
extraordinary ways too.
32:32
Yeah, yeah. And that like, like
32:35
if that.
32:38
And you know, there's kind of a demographic
32:40
reality of
32:43
um, people not
32:45
younger people not being part of churches and also
32:49
not giving to charitable
32:51
organizations and not giving their time to charitable
32:54
organizations. And
32:57
um, I kind of look around my city
32:59
in particular and wonder about the
33:02
collapse of a lot of the feeding
33:05
programs and shelters that we like take for
33:08
granted if the mainline
33:11
church collapses. Right.
33:14
>> Ben Crosby: No, I think that's right. I think that's absolutely
33:16
right. Yes,
33:19
yes. And um. Yes. No, I think that's
33:22
absolutely right. Sort of on the institutional level. Um,
33:25
and I think it's also true
33:28
that,
33:30
um, one of
33:33
the gifts the church can give people sort of committing to
33:35
that work is um,
33:38
providing the sort of theological grounding
33:41
for what they're doing in a way that will enable you
33:43
hopefully to avoid burnout or just
33:46
being sort of overwhelmed by the scope
33:49
of um, the world's suffering.
33:52
Um, you know, I mean, I
33:55
obviously there are, there are many, many people who are, who are
33:58
indeed, you know, sort of non religious who give very, very,
34:00
very sacrificially and amazingly for uh, you know, live
34:03
lives of service and justice for the world.
34:06
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, for sure.
34:07
>> Ben Crosby: As for me speaking personally though, you know,
34:10
I would have found the work that I did, you know, as a union
34:13
organizer so overwhelming and
34:15
impossible if I wasn't able to sort of take
34:18
it every night to uh, the Lord in prayer and then to sort of
34:21
trust that um, that God
34:24
is in fact sovereign and working all things for good and all
34:27
this. That otherwise.
34:29
Yeah. What I needed when I was
34:32
really in the sort of front
34:35
lines, um,
34:38
of kind of social justice, social
34:41
transformation work, was not a church
34:44
that was trying to sort of roll out a less good
34:47
programmatic version of what I was already doing, but a church that was
34:50
going to tell me the truth of the good news
34:53
of God's work for the world and Jesus and
34:56
how that this shows his love for all
34:58
creation and all of us and his determination to reconcile us
35:01
to Himself, you know.
35:03
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I hear that. And you know, I think it's
35:06
something that I try to be aware of as a preacher
35:09
is that it is easy in the
35:12
mainline church to
35:14
um, get into,
35:17
as they say, just giving good advice or giving
35:20
people jobs to do, um,
35:23
and making sure that
35:27
I am proclaiming the good news,
35:30
that it's about grace,
35:32
um, because it's easy to fall into
35:35
that trap.
35:36
>> Ben Crosby: No, I mean, one of my favorite
35:39
pieces of preaching advice that I've really tried
35:42
to uh, put to heart, uh,
35:45
and take to heart and put into practice in my own
35:47
preaching is from, um, Fleming Rutledge, who is
35:50
an Episcopal priest in the, in the States, um, who
35:53
says, you know, that she always tries
35:56
to end her sermons sort of not in the
35:59
imperative mood, but in the indicative. Not sort of giving people a
36:01
list of things to do, but announcing for them, you know,
36:04
what God has already done for them in Christ.
36:07
And it's not that. That's a sort, ah, of formula
36:10
that one must, you know, absolutely follow every time one gets up in
36:13
this pulpit, of course. But, uh, but it is something
36:16
that I've really tried to take
36:18
seriously in my own
36:20
preaching, um, to sort of
36:23
foreground, you know, even when I'm talking
36:26
about the good works that God has
36:29
prepared for us to walk in. Right. Uh, the sort of what the life of
36:32
discipleship and following Jesus looks like to try
36:35
to make it really clear that that's ultimately
36:37
a. Not something that we're doing to sort of earn our way into
36:40
God's favor and balance. Not something we're doing
36:43
of our own power, but something that's done, um, sort of by the power of
36:46
the Holy Spirit, um, you know, working in and through us.
36:50
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think that's a
36:53
good rule of thumb from Fleming
36:56
Rutledge, for sure.
36:58
Um, I think that
37:01
this can be kind of related to the social justice
37:04
piece. But I think one of the things
37:07
that people took most issue with the
37:09
Goodhue article was where he
37:12
placed the blame on why the
37:15
ACC has fallen apart. That,
37:18
um, the Anglican
37:21
Church is too socially
37:23
progressive. And again,
37:26
as someone who has spent my whole life in the
37:29
mainline church, uh, this is a drumbeat
37:32
that I have heard very regularly,
37:35
um, throughout my whole life, which is
37:37
like, you're not going to grow a
37:40
church by being socially
37:42
progressive. If you anecdotally look
37:45
at, um, the
37:48
more evangelical churches that have
37:52
stronger, uh, stances against women in leadership
37:55
and equal marriage and some of these
37:58
other social issues, they're
38:01
the ones that are growing
38:04
and flourishing and meanwhile
38:06
were old and declining. And
38:09
surely it must be because of,
38:12
um, like this is not the
38:15
way that, uh,
38:18
the church needs to go. So,
38:21
um, I thought that you took
38:23
a pretty thoughtful, uh,
38:26
look at that. All too easy
38:29
conclusion to draw. What do you see
38:32
as being the, um, relationship between
38:35
progressive theology and church
38:38
decline?
38:40
>> Ben Crosby: Yeah, I think that is a great
38:43
question. And I think I will say one of the things that I
38:46
found a little frustrating myself
38:49
about, uh, the Gidhue piece is I felt like he
38:51
wasn't. That there wasn't a lot of sort of
38:54
nuance, um, or clarity about what exactly he meant by just
38:57
saying, you know, oh, it's because of progressivism.
39:01
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know,
39:04
I think that on one
39:07
hand it is true statistically that. That
39:10
the Sort of more socially progressive
39:13
denominations have tended, um, in, in
39:16
at least North America, um, to be sort of
39:18
declining faster. And, and yeah, to be declining
39:21
faster. It's also true
39:24
that being sort of theologically conservative is not
39:27
a sort of. Or, and specifically theologically
39:29
conservative in the sense of, you know, not having women in
39:32
leadership or sort of not, not affirming, um, same
39:35
gender marriage, that sort of thing, um, is not
39:38
a silver bullet, um, to prevent it either. You
39:41
know, I think we've seen, you know, some of the
39:44
sort of small. I mean actually the church that I grew up in, um, the Lutheran
39:47
Church, Missouri Synod, for example, um, it sort
39:50
of is facing, not quite as dire as ours, but a fairly
39:53
dire, um, demographic outlook. I mean even,
39:56
um, you know, the sort of Southern Baptist church in the
39:59
U.S. you know, sort of seems to be,
40:01
seems to be cresting. So that's the first thing I'd say is that this isn't,
40:04
you know, this relationship isn't, isn't sort of
40:07
set in stone, um, even if it does seem to generally
40:10
be true. And I think what I would really want to
40:13
say is as somebody who is personally committed to us, has sort of found himself
40:16
in the main line in large part because of commitments
40:19
to things like women in leadership or
40:22
LGBTQ inclusion, is
40:25
that there is
40:27
nothing theologically
40:30
necessary about those stances.
40:32
Also including the position
40:35
that evangelism doesn't matter or
40:38
sort of holiness of life is not important or you know, I
40:41
think for a variety of
40:43
complicated historical reasons,
40:46
um, the sort of social progressivism
40:49
and this particular sort of theological
40:52
liberalism have, have tended to go
40:55
together, but I don't think they
40:58
have to. Um, and I think
41:00
that there is a real opportunity, um, for
41:03
those of us who are committed
41:06
and committed, I dare say for, for many of us, certainly for
41:09
me, on sort of theological
41:12
grounds to these, these sort of questions of inclusion to,
41:14
to show that a,
41:17
um, that a thriving
41:19
church that nonetheless, you know,
41:22
welcomes women, welcomes LGBTQ people, et cetera,
41:25
you know, is in fact
41:28
possible. Um, and frankly, you know, I
41:30
think we uh,
41:33
if indeed um, as we are you know, often
41:36
often told that these, that we need to particularly sort
41:39
of foreground and then think about the kinds of
41:42
needs and experiences of the most marginalized and those who
41:45
have, you know, been, um, not had a place made for them in Christian
41:48
spaces, you know, I think that's actually all the more
41:51
reason to be concerned about,
41:54
about questions of, of decline and disappearance.
41:56
Right? I mean, where, you know, I, I
41:59
want my, my gay Christian friends to be
42:02
in a Church that, you know, welcomes both part. Uh,
42:05
both parts of that sort of enthusiastically. And. And
42:08
if these. And if our churches don't exist, that
42:11
won't exist, you know.
42:14
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah. I think that
42:16
that's, um. You know, if
42:19
we go back to what you said earlier about,
42:22
like, knowing Jesus matters,
42:24
like, that's kind of the fundamental
42:28
point, um, that we're
42:31
working from. We're not working from
42:34
the point that, uh, therefore, you
42:37
know, we do
42:39
whatever it is to,
42:42
um, grow our churches. Like,
42:45
we. We want the starting point to
42:48
be knowing Jesus matters. And that's
42:51
right. Um, and
42:54
like, I certainly wouldn't know how to know
42:56
Jesus if I couldn't
42:59
be part of a church where
43:02
women in leadership is recognized and
43:05
where equal marriage is possible like
43:08
that. I like how you frame
43:10
that,
43:13
um, that
43:15
offering of church is really
43:18
essential for a lot of people to know Jesus.
43:21
>> Ben Crosby: I think that's right. I think that's right.
43:24
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. And also I think statistics always
43:27
need to be, um,
43:30
examined, uh,
43:32
with a fine tooth comb. Because as I understand
43:35
it, m. The
43:38
evangelical churches are
43:41
suffering, um, from similar
43:44
levels of decline,
43:47
even if we're kind of further ahead
43:50
on the road of decline. So, um, I
43:53
appreciate your saying
43:56
it's appealing to think that it's just
43:59
sort of a magic bullet of if
44:01
you proclaim these particular,
44:05
um, social stances, then you will
44:08
have a thriving church. And I just think
44:11
that is fantasy.
44:12
>> Ben Crosby: Um, no, I absolutely think that
44:15
is a fantasy. Although I also do want to say,
44:18
as I think I sort of said before, that even though
44:21
there is no silver bullet either way, and then ultimately God gives the
44:24
growth that these sort of commitments to
44:27
evangelism and discipleship that are often
44:30
associated more with people who
44:33
hold those views than the sort of social progressive views
44:36
that. That does make a difference for people coming to life
44:38
in Christ and for sort of having
44:41
thriving churches.
44:43
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, so that just brings me right back to what I
44:46
wanted to ask you next, because I did want to circle back to
44:49
that piece about evangelism.
44:51
So, you know, you noted, like, there are
44:54
some very unhelpful ways
44:56
of proclaiming the gospel,
44:59
especially in a pluralistic society.
45:03
So what do you think healthy and realistic
45:06
evangelism look like in our mainline
45:09
context?
45:11
>> Ben Crosby: Yeah, another really great question.
45:13
Um, there's a book that I find myself
45:16
often going to that was. Was written
45:19
specifically for a. For a US Context, but I think
45:22
is sort of more broader than that is. It's a
45:24
book called, um, Unbinding
45:27
the A Real Life Evangelism
45:30
by Martha Grace Reese. And what this book
45:32
is, is that it comes out of a
45:35
big, um, Lilly Endowment. It's a US
45:38
foundation that funds a lot of sort of
45:41
Christian, and then specifically often sort of mainline Protestant
45:44
initiatives to look at
45:46
mainline churches across
45:49
denominations, um, who had sort of
45:51
consistently been able to
45:54
have, um, adult baptisms. Uh, and
45:57
the idea being that sort of adult baptisms, especially
46:00
in churches that practice infant
46:02
baptism, sort of tends to indicate, know, not
46:05
just people that are moving from one church to another, but people that are
46:08
actually, were not Christians sort of becoming
46:11
Christians.
46:12
>> Martha Tatarnic: Right.
46:13
>> Ben Crosby: And it's a, uh, yeah, it's a book that I would, I would
46:16
really commend to people that are, that are interested in
46:19
sort of trying to think about these questions. I mean,
46:22
I think one of the things that she talks
46:25
about a lot, which I think
46:28
is also really important, is sort of how can we
46:31
build a culture in our congregations
46:34
where people feel
46:38
equipped and able to talk to other
46:41
people in their circles about their faith. Right.
46:44
Uh, you know, I think that we often
46:47
in the mainline are sort of so
46:50
anxious of coming off
46:52
as, um, you know, like,
46:55
uh, a street preacher or, you know, or like a, I don't
46:58
know, sort of Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormon missionaries going toward a door
47:01
or whatever that we are, are kind of nervous to
47:04
talk about this at all. But, you know,
47:09
but if we have found something
47:12
really amazing, um,
47:15
as simple as, you know, a TV show that we think is
47:18
rad, we don't hesitate to talk to our friends and recommend
47:21
that. Right. And so I think maybe it's a silly
47:24
example, but I do think
47:26
that we need to sort of help our
47:29
people into a culture of like, low
47:32
stakes but honest sort of talking
47:35
about. But why it is that this matters to
47:38
them, why it is that knowing Jesus matters to
47:40
them, um, in a way that,
47:44
you know, then might lead them to
47:46
feeling able to invite people, um, and then
47:50
will lead to some of those people saying yes, and then
47:53
having their lives, pray, God, sort of
47:55
transformed as a result.
47:57
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, that's a, uh, great resource to recommend
48:00
to our listeners. And you know, anecdotally, I'll just
48:03
say, like, I've always heard
48:06
that refrain that Anglicans aren't good at
48:09
talking about their faith. And
48:13
I just sometimes wonder whether, like,
48:17
we as people in leadership just
48:20
haven't bothered to ask because, like, when
48:23
I find that people
48:26
are very eager in my
48:28
congregations to share
48:31
about how prayer has made a
48:33
difference, how walking with Jesus has helped them
48:36
through hard times, how they have experienced
48:39
grace and the hand of God at work in their
48:42
Lives. I don't find that people
48:45
are unable to articulate those things. I
48:48
just. Just think maybe we haven't been listening
48:51
or, like, inviting. Right.
48:53
Like.
48:56
So, yeah, I think that,
48:58
uh,
49:01
I love that kind of being A starting point
49:04
is to name
49:07
our own experiences and
49:10
be able to share that.
49:13
Um, okay. When I
49:16
read the Goodhue article. When I read
49:19
your writing in response to it,
49:23
okay, saying, like, the Goodhue article
49:26
sounds like really bad news. The church that I serve
49:29
has collapsed. Um, it's just a matter of
49:32
time. But at the same time, I find
49:35
something pretty hopeful about that article
49:38
and about the conversation that
49:41
it has produced, because
49:45
I think sometimes it can feel like,
49:48
um, we're all just pretending.
49:51
And I have
49:54
a lot of time for.
49:56
I mean, that's why I'm involved in this podcast, for example,
49:59
like, for talking about what's really going on.
50:03
Um, I'm a really big believer in,
50:06
like, being honest about
50:09
where we are, because then you can
50:12
respond. Like, it's pretty hard to respond when
50:15
you're just pretending that things are different than they
50:18
are.
50:19
Um, how did you
50:22
feel about the Goodhue article? How do you feel about
50:25
these realities? Do you kind of share that sense
50:28
of hope?
50:29
>> Ben Crosby: Yeah, I do. I mean, I think, yes. You know, first
50:32
of all, I think
50:35
there was, yes, an experience of. Of
50:38
relief and, you know, feeling like I'm not crazy when
50:41
I sort of see someone else willing to say, you know, no,
50:44
like things actually are bad and it's actually a
50:47
problem that they're bad. You know, I mean, I think, yes, it
50:50
feels.
50:54
Well, it's not my place to, you know, I
50:57
sort of. How do I want to put
51:00
this? Yeah, I'll just. I'll just
51:03
leave it with this. That, yes, I think there's a real sense of relief
51:05
in feeling that. The reality is that I also sort of
51:08
of see so keenly and worry about so
51:11
much, sort of seeing them, um, named
51:14
explicitly, sort of brought out into the light for us to
51:16
look at. I mean, I think of in so many
51:19
areas of life, and whether it's,
51:21
um, a lot of sort of therapeutic
51:24
methods or, you know, think of like, AA and 12 step
51:27
programs and sort of things like that. I mean, it's sort of an
51:30
axiom that, you know, you can't actually really start to get
51:33
better until you sort of stop denying that things are
51:35
wrong and actually admit,
51:38
um, that they are, you know, um. And so, yes,
51:41
I think in that sense, I
51:44
do find it. I do find it hopeful in
51:47
that. I think that the, uh, the way that we
51:50
are going to move through to a sort
51:53
of healthier place as, as
51:56
well as the acc, as. As sort of North American mainline
51:59
in general, that we're not going to get. We're not
52:02
going to get there without first being able to be honest
52:05
about where we're at, how we're doing
52:08
and what needs to change. And so in that sense,
52:11
I do find this a much more hopeful
52:14
conversation than
52:17
pretending that things will more or less
52:20
just continue to go along the way that they have.
52:22
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
52:25
So, you know, if you were to be made
52:28
the head of a mainline denomination, like
52:30
nominations are open right now for Archbishop of
52:32
Canterbury, for example, like, just
52:35
saying. But, uh,
52:38
what would be your first move? Like what would be
52:41
top of the priority heap?
52:46
>> Ben Crosby: Yeah, a great
52:49
and challenging question.
52:52
Um, but I think
52:55
the answer for me would be sort
52:58
of having to figure out,
53:01
trying to figure out how
53:05
every single thing we do as a
53:08
church is serving
53:12
evangelism and discipleship. I mean, it's something actually
53:15
that I really appreciate about the, uh, new presiding bishop
53:18
of the, uh, Episcopal Church that I think he has sort of been very
53:21
straightforward about saying, you know,
53:25
right. That we can't be
53:28
driven, um, that the sort of
53:31
institutional maintenance can't be in the driver's seat.
53:34
Right. Sort of maintaining the structures as they've been can't be maintained in the
53:37
driver's seat. Like, we need to be willing to ask some challenging
53:39
questions about sort of how
53:42
the things that we're doing sort of at the church
53:46
wide level really are serving the gospel
53:49
and be willing to let go of things that
53:51
may very well have been an important part of our church's
53:54
work at some point, but just sort of don't.
53:57
Don't make sense for the moment. And so, yeah, I think, you know,
54:00
whether. Whether it's. It's sort of institutional analysis
54:03
or whether it's, you know,
54:06
um, the sort of formation, um, of
54:08
clergy and laity just like, figuring out how
54:11
to keep that front and
54:14
sort of first and foremost and keeping that first and
54:17
foremost not sort of from a
54:20
place of anxiety about the like, continued existence
54:23
of our institution, but. But out of the,
54:26
like, good news that we get to share
54:29
about who God is. Um,
54:32
yeah, yeah, I think
54:35
that's. As I say, I've
54:38
been excited to see sort of some mainline leaders sort of seem
54:41
to take up that call. And that is the thing that, like, I
54:44
would most love to
54:46
see our leaders do. I, um,
54:49
think the thing that I'll sort of add as a
54:52
corollary of that and as I Think something that
54:55
is necessary, um, for our church to
54:58
have a, um, compelling public
55:01
witness to Christ. Um, is
55:04
thinking especially I suppose about England in this case with as you say, the new
55:07
Archbishop of Canterbury up, but also Canada
55:09
also, ah, the Episcopal Church,
55:13
um, really making it
55:16
clear that clergy misconduct was not something that was
55:19
going to be acceptable and sort of figuring
55:21
out what institutional changes
55:24
needed to happen, um,
55:27
so that um, our churches
55:30
were much safer places for, um,
55:33
people and where it was a lot more difficult for clergy
55:36
to um, get away with abusing the flocks under
55:39
their charge. Um, because, you know, you don't want to
55:42
invite people into an institution that's not going to be safe for them.
55:45
Right.
55:46
>> Martha Tatarnic: Well, yeah, it is really hard
55:48
to follow Jesus in the life of an
55:51
institution where you,
55:54
um, experience abuse. Just
55:57
bottom line. Yeah,
56:00
I co sign that absolutely
56:02
100%. Well, thank you for all of those really
56:05
thoughtful answers to
56:08
some, I think, pretty critical
56:10
questions about what we're doing right now in
56:13
the life of the mainline church. Let's take a quick break and we'll come
56:16
back our closing
56:18
questions.
56:22
Welcome back to the Future Christian and my
56:25
conversation with the Reverend Ben
56:28
Crosby. Um, we're just going to wrap up with
56:31
some closing questions and we always tell our
56:34
guests that you can take these questions as
56:36
seriously as you want. Um,
56:39
you can be flip and irreverent if you want. You
56:42
can be deep and serious if you want. Um,
56:46
our first closing question is
56:49
a slight variation on what I just asked you at the end
56:52
of our main part of the conversation. But if you
56:55
were Pope for the day,
56:58
um, what would that day look
57:00
like?
57:02
>> Ben Crosby: Well, you know, as, ah, as, as someone who, you know,
57:05
studies the, the Protestant Reformation with all, you know,
57:08
deep love and affection for Roman Catholic friends, I'm, I'm
57:11
inclined to jokingly say, well, you know, dissolve the
57:14
Papacy.
57:16
But, you know, let's go with, um,
57:19
talked about the daily office at the beginning. Let's go with, you know,
57:22
mandate everyone pray morning, uh, and evening prayer
57:25
out of uh, Cranmer's Book of Common Prayer. So
57:28
we'll go with that.
57:30
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay. We're infiltrating the
57:33
Vatican. I like it.
57:37
What theologian or historical Christian
57:39
figure would you want to meet or bring back to
57:42
life?
57:44
>> Ben Crosby: Oh, this is such a dangerous question to ask somebody
57:47
doing a PhD in church history.
57:49
>> Martha Tatarnic: I know I have a variety of like, answers.
57:52
I'm imagining you might say yes.
57:55
>> Ben Crosby: I mean, Luther is someone who's been so important to
57:58
me. And so, I mean, I, yes, love to get to chat
58:01
with him or I do A lot of work on Richard Hooker, and
58:04
so of course it'd be lovely to talk with him. But
58:07
actually I've been thinking about bit lately, uh, mostly, uh,
58:10
because I've been reading her both for my
58:12
academic work and also for this, um, sort of Christian
58:15
formation group that I do for the church that I serve
58:18
in Montreal over zoom. Um,
58:20
about, um, Catherine Parr, who
58:23
is most as one of Henry's wives, but like,
58:26
is really a formidable theologian in her own
58:29
right.
58:29
>> Martha Tatarnic: I know. And so influential.
58:33
>> Ben Crosby: Influential. And so for today. But let's say
58:36
I would just love to have a good chat with Katherine
58:38
Parr.
58:39
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, I'm on board with that,
58:42
Becca. When Loren interviewed me for
58:45
this podcast before I was involved in hosting
58:48
it, my answer, of course was Anne Boleyn. But I'm glad to
58:51
get another one of Henry's, um, wives
58:54
in the mix.
58:56
Okay, what will history remember from our
58:58
current time and place?
59:01
>> Ben Crosby: Yeah, I mean, I do think
59:04
that this really is a,
59:08
uh, dramatic. We are living in a moment of pretty
59:11
dramatic change for Christianity in, at the
59:14
very least, Europe, um,
59:17
and North America. Um, and I guess for
59:20
that matter, the sort of other places where there were, um, European
59:22
settler colonies like Australia and New Zealand, in that we
59:25
are seeing, um,
59:28
the end of, yeah,
59:31
some 15, 16 sort of
59:34
1700 years of kind of publicly supported
59:37
Christianity, whereby for
59:40
good and for ill. And I think it really was a mix
59:43
of both, you know, the
59:45
sort of Christians could count on
59:49
either explicit political
59:51
support or sort of implicit kind of cultural
59:54
support, um, for being
59:57
Christians. Um, and that era has now and then really quite,
1:00:00
quite suddenly, um,
1:00:02
shifted. And so I think, you know,
1:00:06
the shape of the church in the plate, you know, that will
1:00:08
emerge sort of out of this change, I think remains to be
1:00:11
seen. But I do really
1:00:14
think, and I hope this isn't just, you know, privileging
1:00:17
the moment that I happen to, uh, be living
1:00:20
in. But I do really think that, uh, you know, unless
1:00:22
Jesus comes back first, that,
1:00:25
uh, that church historians, uh, you
1:00:28
know, three, 400 years from now will be. Will be looking at
1:00:31
this moment as a. As a quite significant one in
1:00:33
Christian history.
1:00:35
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, good answer.
1:00:37
Um, what are your hopes for the future of
1:00:40
Christianity? That's kind of dovetails
1:00:43
with what you just said.
1:00:45
>> Ben Crosby: Yeah, I mean, I think, uh, my hope for
1:00:48
Christianity's future is, I guess, the,
1:00:51
the same hope that I have for it
1:00:54
all along, that we will continue
1:00:56
to, to be led by the
1:00:59
Spirit to faithfully proclaim the good news of Christ
1:01:02
crucified in every time and place, every cultural
1:01:05
context in which we find ourselves
1:01:08
and that, you know, God by his power would
1:01:11
use our own sort
1:01:13
of feeble words and actions to invite
1:01:16
people to new and abundant life in heaven.
1:01:19
>> Martha Tatarnic: Beautiful. Where can people find
1:01:22
more about you, Ben?
1:01:25
>> Ben Crosby: Yes, um, probably the best place to read my writing and it's actually
1:01:28
the place where uh, this piece that we've been discussing
1:01:30
today was published is I have a substack blog,
1:01:33
uh, Ben
1:01:34
Crosby.substack.com.
1:01:37
>> Martha Tatarnic: And we'll include that in the show notes too.
1:01:39
>> Ben Crosby: Wonderful. Um, I do also do some sort of
1:01:42
public facing writing in some other outlets.
1:01:45
Um, I write quite a bit, uh, especially
1:01:47
lately for Plough and the Anglican
1:01:50
Way. So those are two other places you can
1:01:53
Google and find some of my work if you are so interested.
1:01:56
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, that's great. Well, thank you so
1:01:59
much for our conversation today. I'm looking
1:02:02
forward to talking more with you about
1:02:05
some of these things. And uh, we always
1:02:08
end with the word of peace, so may God's peace be with you,
1:02:11
Ben.
1:02:12
>> Ben Crosby: Amen. Uh, thank you so much, Martha. This has been a
1:02:15
lovely conversation.
1:02:23
>> Loren: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
1:02:26
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
1:02:29
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1:02:31
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