Latest / Beyond the Paycheck / The $20 Million Benefits Investment Employees Forgot in a Year
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- Beyond the Paycheck - Eric Gutierrez === INTRO: [00:00:00] Hi everyone, and welcome to Beyond the Paycheck, where we bring you candid conversations with CHROs and people leaders who are rethinking how compensation and benefits impact far more than just employee bank accounts. From the first paycheck to financial wellness programs, we explore how money shapes identity, equity, purpose, and power at work, and how forward-thinking companies are using pay and perks to transform lives. This podcast is presented by Aura Finance, a psychology-based financial wellness employee benefit that combines coaching and financial management. Now, let's get started and jump in with our next guest Kelsey Willock Jones: Welcome, Eric Gutierrez, VP of Total Rewards at Point B. We're so excited to have you this afternoon. To kick us off, I'd love for you to share a little bit about your career and background, your current role, and where you're calling in from today? Eric Gutierrez: Thanks, Kelsey. It's great to be here. So I'm currently in Charlotte, North Carolina. Go [00:01:00] Hornets. And I've been here for about, I don't know, about almost 10 years now which is a little bit hard to believe. But I spent a lot of time in Virginia, but I've been all around. I was out on the West Coast for a while, moved to Manhattan. So it's been quite a journey. Charlotte's home now, and we really love it. ~S-~ Kelsey Willock Jones: I was gonna say I was, I'm a Wake Forest grad, so from not too far away from the Charlotte area. So I absolutely love North Carolina Eric Gutierrez: yeah, Wake Forest is right up the road. But yeah, I've been doing the total rewards thing for almost 30 years now. I started my human resources related career out on the West Coast. I worked for Chevron Corporation. My first kind of assignment in a kind of corporate environment was in comp and really enjoyed that. And I moved around between business partner and comp roles early on. And then when I moved into banking I spent about 17 years at Capital One. I started as a business partner and then moved into comp and stayed there. ~Ra- ~raised my hand to move over to benefits when a peer went back to school, [00:02:00] and then ultimately served as the head of comp and ben for the firm before I decided it was time to learn a new industry and moved on at that point. But I've spent time both on the corporate side in financial services, technology companies. Currently I work within a consulting firm. But I also spent some time as an outside consultant, which was fascinating just to see a lot of different companies and, the things that they do well and the things that they struggle with. And, it built my kind of foundational understandings that I've carried with me, which is most of us in corporate life struggle with the same things in this domain. There are very few companies that are ~do- ~dealing with something that is like really crazy unique. It's all nuanced to the local firm and their local circumstances, but we're all dealing with the same stuff. Kelsey Willock Jones: Tell me a little bit about Point B. You had mentioned it's a consulting company. How many folks are at the company? Tell me a little bit about the workforce itself. Eric Gutierrez: Yeah. So Point B is based in Seattle, Washington. We're a management consulting firm. We specialize [00:03:00] in helping our clients, transform their biggest kind of problems using technology and technology-related processes. We're about 400 people. Most of our team is client-facing, as you would probably expect. And the firm was started about 20 years ago. And like most of the professional services industries, it's going through its own kind of transformation as we adapt to the world of AI and how that's changing what clients are looking for from us in terms of the services we provide, changing kind of how we operate inside the firm in terms of how we manage the firm and how we add value to our internal clients. And look, ~the, ~the bar has really been raising for professional services firms in terms of just generally the type of value that clients are ~s- ~spending money on. Some of that's the macroeconomy, some of that's just ~the, ~the evolution of this. So it's gonna be really interesting to see ~i-in~ particular where consulting ends up in the next three to four years. But again, I think we're all dealing with the same things, right? When I [00:04:00] talk to my peers in other firms about the things that we're struggling with. Some of us might have a bigger, wrench in one area versus another, but it's all the same stuff. Kelsey Willock Jones: So I have so many questions to follow up on that, but before we get there, I wanna learn a little bit more about you personally. So if you'll indulge me, can you tell me a little bit about your first job and if you remember what you spent your first paycheck on? Eric Gutierrez: yeah. So let's see. My first W-2 job was, of all things, I was an instructor in band camps. So I spent the summer after I graduated from high school teaching~ up, ~up-and-coming kind of high school students all the ins and outs about being in a marching band, of all things. And ~I--~ when I look back at that, it was a pretty good gig, getting to ~spend, sp- ~spend the days out in the summer and, outside and really not having to do that much not having to work that hard. But my brother and I shared this 10-year-old Chevy Camaro, and boy did we love that thing, and you could hear us coming from wherever we are. So I'm not exactly 100% sure, but I'm [00:05:00] pretty certain that first paycheck went to gas 'cause Kelsey Willock Jones: you're also, Eric Gutierrez: much where everything went Kelsey Willock Jones: you're in good company. You're in company of ~a, ~a band nerd, a 14-year clarinetist and was also in a clarinet quartet. Eric Gutierrez: Oh, great. Do you still play? Kelsey Willock Jones: I don't, but as I, in adulthood now, I am exploring a lot of things that I didn't in childhood, such as I recently took an acting class. So now I am really interested in now taking another clarinet class again. So you're inspiring me further Eric Gutierrez: Oh, there you go Kelsey Willock Jones: So how do you think your money story, whether it's your first job and beyond, has influenced how you think about showing up for your people? Eric Gutierrez: That's a really good question. I think ~the, ~the thing that I took away from, you know, getting paid, you know, for doing things, right? ~As,~ as a young person and kinda growing up and I worked several jobs in college and, then advancing into kind of professional ranks, et cetera, is, ~i, I-I've~ [00:06:00] observed and experienced firsthand very much a meritocracy r-related kinda worldview of, if you work hard and do the best that you can and continue to learn and continue to raise your hand to do new things and take on new challenges and take some risk along the way you'll continue to grow. You'll continue to grow from a skill set perspective. You'll continue to grow from a interest and curiosity perspective, and your wallet will continue to grow as well, right? And I think that's true of any career domain, whether you're in something that's, thought of as something that's very well-paying, in the technology area or something that, might be perhaps less so from a hard dollar perspective, but still equally rewarding in the public sector. ~I,~ I think if you put your best foot forward and, leave it on the field every day you'll benefit from that. And I can't ~pr- ~I can't promise everybody that every process is gonna be fair and you're gonna love every outcome of every decision that's [00:07:00] made for you along the way. But I do think that you really have more control over your destiny than you think you do particularly when it comes to work and career. Kelsey Willock Jones: I absolutely love that. And it is, to me, it's even reminiscent of some of my first jobs. E-even they might have seemed minor, whether it was, camp counselor or beyond, do a good job, ~uh, that, ~that leads to positive outcomes. ~um, ~a great reminder. So one of the things I wanna follow up on is what you had mentioned in your intro. You Of companies right now are facing very similar problems. Can you touch on what are you seeing in the marketplace? What are you seeing at the company at Point B and beyond? Um, and what are the things HR leaders need to most pay attention to right now? Eric Gutierrez: I don't think it's-- what I'm gonna say is gonna be all that unique from a ~perspec- ~unique perspective and, it's not gonna sound like some, kind of wisdom earned over 30 years of working in this space, 'cause I think it's been true and it will continue to be true, which is it's all about the talent that you have on the field as a [00:08:00] firm. And it is a war for talent. It's just that ~the, ~the battlefield has been changing and evolving and where the ~w-where~ the kind of battles are waged, so to speak, to to win are probably narrower for most firms today than they have been in the past. But~ l- ~the most exceptional talent with the most critical skills in any industry is always incredibly scarce. There is always more demand for those resources than there is supply. And ~e-even~ though, the market has turned in the last 18 months more towards the employer in terms of having the upper hand in the macro ~equ-macroeconomic~ equation~ th-that~ does not hold true for your most critical skills and your most critical roles. And we can't rest on our laurels in terms of being innovated, ~in-innovative,~ in terms of making sure that we're understanding kind of what are the wants, [00:09:00] desires, and expectations of that critical population that we need to continue to hunt for and to adapt to that. And it again it's different for every industry, but, any company has a core set of DNA roles or skills that create differential value for that enterprise, whether it's managing risk or generating revenue or solving some type of problem or innovation or what have you. And it doesn't mean that all other kind of roles in the organization are not important. Of course they are. But every company has its own kind of unique DNA and has to protect that kind of special butterfly. And there's ~an-- a-and~ they would be foolish not to believe that they're in ~a-absolute, ~day-to-day hand combat in the labor market for those skills and to retain and continue to ~re-recruit~ the talent that they currently have in those spaces. The minute you ~les-rest~ on your laurels, the minute you're gonna find yourself having to go chase that talent externally even [00:10:00] more. Kelsey Willock Jones: One of the ways we're seeing a lot of companies attract and retain talent beyond, just compensation is this focus on supporting the whole person, Their mental health, their physical health, their financial health, you name it. What are the things that you're doing, or you could even answer this question beyond, what are the things you're doing to focus on protecting that top talent in the war in which you describe? And and where do you think companies are also falling short? Eric Gutierrez: Yeah. ~I-i- ~in my current role as I mentioned, our industry's kind of going through transformation. ~I, I--~ and I do think that, a-as our firm kind of shifts our business model a little bit, the the makeup of our workforce is gonna change. And so we are really trying right now to understand what do we think that persona of the future is really gonna look for ~so that we-- look like, ~so that we can, do the work to understand what is the order winner kind of expectation for that population, so that as we continue to evolve our value proposition, we can make sure that we're [00:11:00] pivoting towards that. But the thing that I think we fall short on as total rewards professionals generally or specifically HR people maybe generally in the, with the big capital C or capital L leaders in general is The role that providing a positive work environment kind of plays in your overall value proposition as a firm. Having the right kind of culture, making sure that everybody has challenging work, making sure that there's a path for kind of advancement so that people can continue to grow and learn. Those things are as important or if not more so than comp and benefits once you pass a threshold kind of level. And those aspects of your work environment don't happen overnight. But unfortunately in a lot, too many companies, they happen by accident. And so I think we've got to think a little bit less so about the programs that we constantly tinker with, right? [00:12:00] That we're gonna turn a quarter dial on this kind of incentive plan or this benefit plan, et cetera, and think more about the work environment and the work itself that we offer folks. Because that at the end of the day is what's going to keep people, that's what's going to attract people. And, if you listen carefully, that's what your people are asking for today. So I just feel like we've got to stop thinking about total rewards as programs and think of it more inclusively as the overall kind of work experience Kelsey Willock Jones: I like that a lot because I think that we can all, recall an experience in which we felt like a cog in the wheel or we felt work was getting monotonous and we weren't challenged. And there's a bit of a misnomer that, oh, this person's lazy or whatnot. No, maybe it's, they're not working on the new interesting thing that makes them feel as though they're evolving as a person, as an employee, et cetera. And~ I, ~I really love that angle that you're taking that w- what folks might be missing out on. It's not as simple as just a total rewards package, it's total experience package. When you're thinking about making [00:13:00] investments into certain programs or initiatives, how do you think about making the case for investment in those things when the spreadsheet might not obviously support them? Eric Gutierrez: Yeah. ~I-I've I would say my ~I've evolved like ~most, ~most people~ in, ~in this trade where, when I was learning and kinda coming up in the ranks, It was all about the analytical solution, right? ~The, ~the answer lies in the data. The answer lies in the spreadsheet. The answer a lot lies in the algorithm. And that's part of it. But I think, re- there's return on investment that is financial, and then there's return on investment that comes from engagement and employee sentiment. And in our world, particularly in firms that are in a place where they are hyper-competitive for talent, that return on employee sentiment is as important, if not more important, than return on, financial investment. Now, none of us can be foolish with... [00:14:00] We are all stewards of the capital of the firms that we work for, and It is our role to guide, if not make decisions related to how we best deploy that capital. So we can't be foolish, and we can't turn a blind eye to ~the, ~the cold, hard financial facts of the situation. But we need to really lean into~ in, ~in my view the role of a return on kind of employee experience related to that stuff, I'll give you an example. A few years back, I worked in a large technology services company and it was margins are extremely thin. We were an outsource provider, right? Our margins were insanely thin as a firm. And while we offered all the things to our workforce, ~the, ~the cost of our benefits were not really all that competitive. In fact, it was pretty bad. And, I was surprised that, when I went through ~the, ~the renewal and governance cycle for annual enrollment with the CEO and the CHRO, ~th-they had not, ~had transparency into where they sat relative [00:15:00] to kind of the market, et cetera. They'd, of course, seen and heard lots of employee feedback about the cost of benefits, but, and generally most people are, they're not gonna be out there posting posters out on the wall saying, "Yay," "Our benefits are cheap," right? They're gonna be out there ~b-balking~ about complaining that they're too expensive. But long story short is, when working through things, we made a decision to invest about $20 million in the firm's contribution towards healthcare premiums to move us much closer to the market fairway in terms of what employees pay for benefits. And, look, we got lots of positive short-term kind of feedback from employees when we went through that process, right? I think ~w- ~and I would say it ranged from surprise to genuine, appreciation. But the thing that I, really continue to look back on that and just smile about is, it's the leaders in the firm that I think appreciated that decision more so than the actual kind of frontline [00:16:00] employees. In any forum you went to, and this was even a couple years after we made that decision you would see leaders making, using this as an example of how, we're leaning in and we're trying to make a difference for our employees, and we saw this as an opportunity, and we invested this big sum of money, even though we were having a, having difficulty making our earnings. We saw this as a need for the employees, and we leaned in and made this investment. And it was clear that, those leaders maybe don't have many of those examples that they could trumpet. But I was surprised how widely the audience of evangelists were that we had in the firm in terms of drawing attention to that kind of investment. So look, at the end of the day, the next open enrollment cycle~ it's all ~nobody remembers what you did last year, right? So they're gonna, they'll look back at the, "Oh, costs are going up 5% this year. Oh, I don't like that," but the leaders will continue to tell the story of, we saw this big problem and we went to bat and we made this investment, et cetera. A- and that kind of lore, I think, lives on in firms when you really lean in and make a decision that [00:17:00] is of benefit to the employees, even though it might be pretty costly. Kelsey Willock Jones: We haven't really spoken much about financial health particularly. We've spoken a bit about, experience broader strategies in healthcare. How important is financial health for employees to you and the company? And if it is important, why is it important? Eric Gutierrez: It's incredibly important. ~W- ~we know that, ~t- ~to the extent to which, Employees are distracted by anything apart from the kind of tasks of their day-to-day job. They will be less efficient, they will potentially be less effective. May either put less effort towards it or make mistakes from being distracted by other things in life. And, ~it-- ~unfortunately for a big part of our population, matters of personal finances are, one of those kitchen table items that is on the back of people's minds every day. And I think that's true regardless of your earnings level. I think to some [00:18:00] degree ~there is a ~there's that kind of dim light in the back of your head that won't go away in terms of, things that you worry about. ~I, ~I have maybe a controversial opinion relative to some of my peers about this whole industry and domain around financial wellness that kind of, started a number of years ago there are all these pretty kind of training programs, whether it's from the 401(k) record keepers or the banks or unique kind of point solutions that are all like, we're gonna help your employees like budget, or we're gonna help you invest and diversify, or we're gonna help you like improve that college savings rate, et cetera. And look, at the end of the day. That's all cute, but ~at, ~at the end of the day, what people need is a living wage, and what people need is their cash compensation to keep up with inflation. And so when I think about the best things that we can do as leaders in a firm to reduce , the loss of kind of [00:19:00] productivity, et cetera, that we see in any workforce from worry about finances is to put our efforts towards making business decisions that will help ensure that the firm is stable, growing, and so that we can continue to invest and ensure that their basic compensation continues to, as best as any firm can these days, meet the rising tide of inflation. If we can't do that, it doesn't matter that you've trained people how to do a budget. It doesn't matter that, people have an appreciation for diversifying a 401(k) portfolio. It doesn't matter that people have an appreciation that they should be saving for X months for an emergency fund. Because if they're ~noti- ~if they're noticing and absorbing ~the, ~the grocery bill for the same kind of, basket of goods is going up by X percent kind of month after month and their paycheck isn't, ~everything el- ~nothing else matters. It's like that Maslow's hierarchy of needs kind of [00:20:00] concept here. So I think there's been, look, a lot of well-intended kind of energy in this space and all of that, but I don't know that a lot of that really matters that much. I think at the end of the day firms need to make sure that ~we ~we need to make sure that our employees can actually live. And I think once we have conquered that I think you can invest in some of the other bells and whistles, et cetera. But for most firms, they've still got more work to do on that first thing. Kelsey Willock Jones: I would say, Eric, it certainly, while it might seem like a hot take it seems like what you're describing should be really table stakes. ~H- ~pay people a living wage. But I love that perspective. My last question for you is what is a shift in compensation and benefits that most HR leaders are not ready for? Eric Gutierrez: I think the shift that we're probably not ready for is, ~w- we, y- ~none of us know where This new industrial revolution of technology that we're living through is going to leave us with regard to the [00:21:00] type of work that needs to be done the type of skills that we're gonna need to do that kind of work inside the firm and to if it does in fact happen, deal with the world where value creation inside the firm is done by human intelligence sitting side by side with computer intelligence or artificial intelligence. And you have the, you know, bots and agents doing some things and humans doing other things. And there is, there's certainly a whole marketplace of going back to my, every firm has a DNA of skills that they need to be careful with. Certainly that's gonna be the case, and certainly for many firms, AI's gonna have something to do with that. But I think there's a whole psychology of humans doing work with kind of computers and machines. That we are underestimating in terms of how difficult that transition's going to be, right? And, people-- I have these debates with colleagues all the time, and they're like: But Eric, we do that today. [00:22:00] People, if you're a knowledge worker, you sit in front of a screen every day, all day. So really, how different is it gonna be? And I'm like: Yeah, but you're in control today. I'm telling the machine to do something, and it's doing it, hopefully. It might tell me I have to reboot a couple of times, but eventually it will do what I'm asking it to do. The world could look very much like the machine is directing the people to do stuff in the future, and/or there will be a level of collaboration in terms of problem-solving that we've not seen before. And I think it's gonna be really interesting to see how the human psyche evolves with that. I think it's gonna be really difficult. And ~I-- ~now I'm bearish. I don't think this is gonna happen tomorrow. I'm not one of these people that thinks, the AI generation is here, and it's gonna be upon us, et cetera. I think it'll get here in my career, and I'm-- look, I'm in my 50s, so I don't have much longer to go. But it's not gonna be tomorrow. But I think there's gonna be a real, shift in attitude, [00:23:00] behavior, emotional consequences, et cetera, in terms of what work actually means in this kind of future environment. And I don't know that we can even get our heads around kind of what the problem statements are gonna be. Forget about having solutions for it. We don't even know yet what the problems are gonna be. So ~I, ~I tell them I've got three college-aged kids and, I it's gonna be fascinating to kinda see, how their careers kind of evolve, et cetera, because they've, they're gonna have careers that look so different than ours just from that perspective. Kelsey Willock Jones: I think that although this is the end of our conversation, ~th-this~ could lead to a whole other entire ~p- ~podcast conversation on, the future of work. And I've certainly been spending a decent amount of time ~on, ~on dissecting the psychology of it all. ~I-I've~ been currently very into AI psychosis We spend so much time chatting with different AI tools. What does that actually mean? What does it mean for our brains? What does it mean for memory and more? Such a fascinating topic. A-and perhaps, Eric, we'll have you on a follow-up show, Eric Gutierrez: Oh, would love to. Would love [00:24:00] to. I Kelsey Willock Jones: love that. Eric Gutierrez: Yeah, would love to. I think it's a, it's gonna be a wild ride Kelsey Willock Jones: It certainly is. Thank you so much, Eric, for being part of this conversation. I've learned so much from you. You are an absolute linguist with words. And so it's been just such a pleasure listening to you and learning from you. I hope you have a wonderful rest of your afternoon and thanks again for being on the show. Eric Gutierrez: Oh, thanks. My pleasure. Anytime