Latest / Glovisor Podcast / Ep. 21: You’re Not Burned Out—You’re Grieving Your Career (Most People Don't Realize It)
Transcript
- Joe Abreu - Glovisor: Most people don't realize how much of their life is being controlled by fear, emotional wounds, and old patterns something forces them to change. We're diving into how anyone can begin changing their life from inside out. You're okay with that intro? Or that hook? Good. Laverne McKinnon: Yes. Yeah. Joe Abreu - Glovisor: Our guest is a TEDx speaker, career strategist, and former senior entertainment industry executive who works with leaders and teams, high stakes change and uncertainty. A master certified coach and faculty member in Northwestern University's Master Program in Leadership for the Creative Enterprises, she brings a rare blend of strategic clarity, creative thinking, emotional intelligence to her keynotes, presentations, and trainings. Through her trademarked Rise framework, she helps leaders recognize what's been lost, make sense of what happened, create a compassionate closure, and move forward with greater trust, alignment, and momentum. Glovisor welcomes Laverne McKinnon. Laverne McKinnon: Hi, Joe, I'm so happy to be here today. Joe Abreu - Glovisor: Excellent. We're so glad looking forward to having a conversation. Alright, Laverne, so for people meeting you for the very first time, who is Laverne McKinnon beyond this professional titles and of those accolades? Laverne McKinnon: I like to describe myself as a dirtbag from the Midwest. ⁓ Joe, I grew up in a lower income family outside Chicago. my family I'm so fortunate, they were incredible, loving, warm, grounded people. My mother ⁓ was born Japan and she met my father when he was stationed there during the Korean War. I like to call him an American mutt. Joe Abreu - Glovisor: Ha Laverne McKinnon: but I've been very much shaped by being a mixed race woman of color. so outside of the Instagram snapshots, ⁓ I'm I like to think of myself as just a humble midwesterner. Joe Abreu - Glovisor: Yeah. So now, I mean, I just read your bio. What experiences in your own life led you towards this type of work? Laverne McKinnon: I'd love to just talk about ⁓ thing that happened to me in my professional career. So coming from a very humble background, I completely have bought into the American dream that with education and hard work and commitment that could achieve whatever dreams I ⁓ dreamed And I very much on that track moving from Illinois to Hollywood and launching a career in the entertainment industry. And I had moved up the ladder at CBS, the broadcast network. responsible for and Everybody Loves Raymond. And after I'd been at CBS for 10 years achieving my I was fired. that really, I was primary that altered the trajectory of not so much my career, but how I viewed my relationship with my Joe Abreu - Glovisor: Wow. So would that be the defining moment where you realize that purpose involved helping others grow emotionally? Laverne McKinnon: honestly took me a long time, Joe, to figure that purpose ⁓ And a little bit self-conscious, but I'm going to be transparent here that for a portion of my adult life, my purpose was about achievement and efficiency and And when I was go my job, I had to like really redefine and like, Who am I without that particular job title? And it took me honestly about 10 years to figure out, a second, my experience is not unique. That there are so many people who have not only experienced job loss from being fired, downsized or laid off, but also experienced things like launching a business that unfortunately doesn't make it across the finish line in corporate America. not getting a promotion after working diligently for several years or a lot of oneself into a new project, but just not to have it funded or marketing mishaps. And that it was sort of like a twofold defining moment of being fired and then realizing, wait a second, it's okay for me to feel bad and to ⁓ actually grieve. losses that have occurred to me in my professional life. so once, after I was fired and I had that realization 10 years later, that became the defining experience of my life and my career. Joe Abreu - Glovisor: Wow, so it took you 10 years to connect those two. And that's very interesting. Sorry, please. Laverne McKinnon: Yes, because I... ⁓ no. took me 10 years because I didn't... I that loss and grief were only about the loss of life. I didn't understand that grief can encompass ⁓ any of loss. And so that idea of career grief, I had that moment of, ⁓ my gosh, I'm feeling stuck. because I've been grieving my career and I gave myself permission to mourn. Joe Abreu - Glovisor: So I'll be honest, I really, I never connected those two dots until I met you. So I can imagine that a lot of us are on the same boat where we might've felt these feelings but not understood them. And if it took you 10 years, probably, most of us will take a lifetime to put those two dots together. is what the rise method and what it represent? Laverne McKinnon: Yeah, so I'm going to back up a little bit because I realized I jumped into the deep end with you without actually explaining what career grief is. career grief is when something changes at work that you really, really, really, really didn't want to have changed. And named a number of examples of this. And so developed this framework called RISE to help people ⁓ support them a mourning process because With the loss of life, we understand that there are memorial services. We sit Shiva, there's a funeral, we plant a tree in someone's honor. And I could go on and on and on with all of the different ways that we culturally recognize the loss of life. And so with the RISE framework, like, it feels a little weird to have a memorial service for not getting a promotion. ⁓ And what are... ⁓ the ways that we're able to give ourselves permission to mourn. is okay if I talk through briefly what the RISE framework is? So the R stands recognize the loss. And I always start there because for what you and I have just been talking about that ⁓ we so don't realize that we have permission to grieve a career setback in some way. And within that, Joe Abreu - Glovisor: Please. Laverne McKinnon: there are visible losses and then there are hidden losses. And so for me, after I was fired from CBS, I actually went on to several high profile jobs. so on paper, it's like, yeah, Laverne's fine. She bounced back just ⁓ But Joe, wow. ⁓ I was ripped to shreds by imposter syndrome. A lot of as ⁓ And it wasn't until that 10 year mark that I realized that the hidden losses, I had never addressed them, that it wasn't enough to get a new job and to make sure that I could pay my bills. when I was fired, I had also lost my identity of being someone who was competent and capable. I lost my sense of belonging. I had for all intents and purposes grown up ⁓ CBS for 10 years and really came into my professional maturity. my family was gone. And and there are a number of hidden losses that are to each of us, but if we don't understand what the hidden losses are and recognize them, as well as the visible losses, we're going to stuck. And then what comes along with that is the I stands for the meaning. And so for me, because I... ⁓ had lost this identity of not being competent and capable, my negative self-talk skyrocketed and I began to call myself a lot of names for a long time, like I'm stupid, I'm a loser, I'm worthless, I'm a failure, ⁓ kept me stuck as well. So the framework we examine, what are the meanings that we're creating from the loss? then the third step is what I call shifting into agency or signaling the shift where professional loss, it makes us feel helpless, hopeless, and powerless is what are the steps that we can take in order to regain that sense of agency and that typically involves a ritual of some kind. Not necessarily a memorial service, but we create a ritual. And then final step is to embark on the step. that's really important because like to be there with people to support them, whether it's redoing a resume or getting a haircut or scheduling an informational interview or something like that of like, what's the first step that we can take we have mourned the loss? ⁓ Joe Abreu - Glovisor: Alright, so a couple of things there. First of all, isn't interesting how sometimes we talk to ourselves much worse than we would ever talk to someone else? It's amazing to me. And then the second thing is I would love to get an example of ritual. Laverne McKinnon: Yes, there are so, so many that I have done with clients and I always encourage people to let their imaginations run free. ⁓ give two examples. One I with a lot of creative people and there was a writer that I had worked with who had developed a script that had gotten the Hollywood system and had been developed over a very long amount of time. And unfortunately it just never got a green lit. ⁓ And the hard truth is that it was never going to get moved into production. so she out her script and she a hole in her backyard and she buried it. But what was most important was that she had written a eulogy for it. And she said it was very much like process of saying goodbye to something that hadn't fully met its potential. and she apologized and then she said, in peace. And that was like a really cathartic moment for her. I would love to give a second example that's not, it's tangential but important in which someone that I had worked with later in life developed a medical condition that unfortunately forced an early retirement and he had to retire at 52 and he did not want to. because of his medical condition, he was losing his driver's license. And was ⁓ incredibly what we up doing as his ritual was, and I'm going to be transparent here, some of his were not happy with this, is that he gave permission to drive one more time. And he it in a very safe way. It was at a big empty parking lot. But he wanted that opportunity to feel wheel of the car in his hands, to put his foot on the gas, foot on the brake, to signal. Because losing his driver's license and losing his job, he lost sense of freedom. And he just wanted to be able to have a good goodbye, as opposed to the abruptness of medical diagnosis and all of these things that he enjoyed doing were no longer available to him. So we can be wildly creative in the type of ritual in order to be able to say farewell. Joe Abreu - Glovisor: it's interesting that something common or things that we give for granted, I think that ⁓ once we it, just like he lost the ability to drive, how important it became for him and how he needed to sort of have that ritual let that go. So why do you think that so many people feel stuck and overwhelmed or disconnected today? Laverne McKinnon: Well, of course, I'm going to bring it back to my bias, which I do feel like there is a tremendous amount of unprocessed and unrecognized grief that people are carrying. And I'm from your perspective, if you're seeing this as well, which I think you do, having been a fan of your work, is that how we work is so changing. And so there's grief around that, the things that we were really certain about. Like my father's generation, you got into a company, you could stay at that company for the rest of your career and have a really, really good life. For generation, I felt like I had a choice. I could find a company that maybe represented security or stability, ⁓ or could do something entrepreneurial. I think for our kids' generation, they're now saying there's nothing certain about the workplace anymore. Higher education doesn't guarantee longevity of career or success in career. we're going through a massive transformation right now with how AI is fitting work. ⁓ I think a lot of people are feeling stuck and burnt ⁓ the things that we could rely on and trust and have faith in are changing right our fingertips. And so what I was attached to was this belief, if I work hard, then I will be safe. a mistaken ⁓ There are no guarantees if you work hard that you will be safe and secure in your career. There are no guarantees that if you invest in higher education that there will be a job waiting for you on the other side. So I that there's the people are feeling this because we're attached the ways and we haven't yet, we're not yet understanding new ways and how to go move forward with them. Joe Abreu - Glovisor: Absolutely. So how do you think these children are going to build on a foundation of uncertainty? Laverne McKinnon: Well, that's the irony, uncertainty has always been here, but we've created some systems in which to try to become more like the rise of ⁓ working intuitives and psychics and astrologists and I Ching and all of those types of things. And so happens is that, and I'm going this myself, is because so many beliefs that I had held that propped up my career, I'm like, ⁓ that's not exactly true anymore. ⁓ which is to turn the lens inward, to be able to say, I am resourceful, I am creative, I am resilient. And so that whatever comes my way, am capable of navigating this. Might it be horrifically messy? Yes. Might it be smooth as silk? Yes. that as human beings, we are naturally creative and resourceful. And so we don't have to look externally to be able to navigate uncertainty because we are amazing problem solvers. Joe Abreu - Glovisor: I love that. what are some of the most common emotional patterns that you see repeatedly in people who come to for your help? Laverne McKinnon: Folks who are experiencing career grief, and mentioned this earlier, Joe, which is that there's this feeling of stuckness right underneath that stuckness is the helpless, hopeless, powerless feeling. And then also frustration and anger of I have trying this and it's not working. It used to work and it's no longer working. And so the pattern, is, I'm trying to find the words to say this with so much love and respect because we don't know what we don't know. And The pattern is trying the same things, not getting the results that we want. But then I just really want to commend people who are listening to your work and our conversation today to say, there's something that drew you, that you're listening to your intuition to say, something more. something right around the corner. And while everyone is grieving, my question would be, let's poke around here and just see if you might be grieving. and you're actually not aware of it. Joe Abreu - Glovisor: right something hidden Laverne McKinnon: Yes. Is it okay if I share a couple of like the symptoms and signs of grief? Joe Abreu - Glovisor: Yes, please. Laverne McKinnon: So of the things that I really notice in a professional context is that it impacts people cognitively. so priorities muddled. Deadlines begin to get missed. Difficulty putting thoughts together. Because grief, when it goes unprocessed, it doesn't disappear. It leaks because asking for attention. And so it might also show up in the body as fatigue. You know you got eight hours of sleep, but you wake up and you're like, I am exhausted. There's also appetite issues where like hunger goes off the chart or it's like, I can't eat anything. There's also sleep disturbances as well, to sleep a lot, insomnia. And so if someone watching, listening to this is experiencing those cognition issues, body issues, ⁓ that would be a sign to get curious and not to just write it off as I had a couple of really stressful weeks, that there may be something else going on and I it's worth the inquiry. Joe Abreu - Glovisor: Sure. Now how does someone know when it's time to stop that pushing through and actually begin internally? Laverne McKinnon: Yeah. because we live in a society that, least in terms of Western society, that rewards pushing through. Stoicism, the just it. We get a lot of messaging that says, go, go, go, don't give And so that sign of, I through? I tend to Do I go internal? I would say, ⁓ If you're even contemplating that, it's a sign to say, tend to the internal. if anyone watching or listening to this is anything like me, I'm recovering productivity. I don't want to use the word addict because that's not quite accurate. it's hard. It's really, really for me to slow down and stop, even though I know, wow. it would probably be incredibly beneficial for me to do some nervous system regulation. It takes three or four minutes, that's all it takes. yet I still have difficulty finding the time to do that. I'm gonna give a quick metaphor. There was a time period in which I was trying to train for a marathon, never did it. But ⁓ I that in order to train for a marathon that I needed to run 26 miles. every time I trained in order to be ready for the 26 mile run. After consulting with the professionals, I discovered that my training technique was absolutely incorrect. That you don't ever during the training period run 26 miles. The most you ever run I think is either 21 or 22 miles you run for five and then you walk for one. You run for five and you walk for one. ⁓ and then you build your miles. So you go two miles and four miles and six miles and seven miles and 13 miles, and then you back up and you do miles. The is true in our professional lives. You can't run 26 miles the entire time. So you bursts and then you pause. You do a burst and you do a pause. So that's just one technique in terms of if you're anything like me where it's like, I can't stop, but I can pause. And so that's giving me access ⁓ to tools to mourn, to regulate my nervous system and to go internal and take care of myself without abandoning the things that are important to me. Joe Abreu - Glovisor: Sure. you walk us through one practical step from the RISE process that listeners could begin applying immediately? Laverne McKinnon: Yeah, absolutely. I'm going to go back to that first step of R, of recognize the loss. the first thing I want to just share in terms of context of recognizing the loss is that are two types of grievers. Well, probably three, because sometimes it's a combination of two. There are head and there are heart grievers. And frequently in Western we have a mistaken belief that Joe You should be talking about your feelings. You should be emoting. Let's see some tears. Whoa, whoa. Talking too much, too much. You should be over it by now. So there are some mixed messages, but there's an expectation that are going to talk about your feelings in order to be able to mourn your loss properly. And that's valid and important. Being with your feelings is really, really critical. But there are also people who are head grievers, and I'm putting that into quotes, who grieve by taking action. They mourn. by doing something, setting up a foundation, fixing a fence, that type of thing. So when recognizing one's loss, I just wanted to flag that you may have different ways of seeing this based on whether you're a head griever or a heart griever, and that whatever way that you grieve is A-okay, that there's no one right to do this. One of the tools that we use in recognizing the loss is to create a timeline of the highs and the lows in one's careers. And so that's one really, I'm going to put simple in quotes, a simple and easy step to take order to begin to recognize what were the wins and the losses within my professional life. And then I'll give you a little preview for the second step is once you create that timeline, is then to look at the losses then begin to articulate and identify what are the visible losses and that one was the hidden loss. So that job title that I had of Senior Vice President Drama Development, the hidden part of that was that I was attached to the of that title. It felt like I was somebody. And so that's what we're looking for and that's what we're starting to explore. Joe Abreu - Glovisor: Sure. Wow, so is that a common action? Laverne McKinnon: Yeah, there's some really amazing studies about the value of journaling any type of loss event, whether it becomes grief related or it's ⁓ is it creates a kind of disorganization in our brains because something has happened that has severed attachment, that has severed something that's important to us. And so our is like, what, what, what, what, And journaling, helps us sort and organize our thoughts so that we can begin to make sense of what happened. Mary Frances O'Connor wrote an extraordinary book about this. It's called The Grieving Brain. And people are experiencing grief from loss of life or other forms of ⁓ loss, highly recommend this book by Mary Frances O'Connor, The Grieving Brain. Joe Abreu - Glovisor: on it. So self-awareness is very transformational. Why does so many people avoid it? Laverne McKinnon: Yeah. We like to be the hero of our own story. so, yeah, identity has been a theme for our conversation today. But as a hero of my own story, I created this belief that I'm competent and I'm capable. And while I am, it's an unreasonable expectation to think that I'm going to be competent and capable 100 % of the time. And so if I need to look inward, if I need to at patterns or what's been going on in my life, ⁓ going to force me to confront the hard truth that I'm not 100 % capable 100 % of the time. And if I'm not, then what does that mean? And this is bringing in the negative self-talk that it means, ⁓ that I'm not worthy. I'm not And so ⁓ But to prove basically what you're, the undercurrent of the question is, that's why it's so important for us to look inward because then I can start to say, wait second, am I really worthless? Am I really a failure? Am I really a loser? Have I had moments and times where I've made mistakes and had faceplants and failures? Absolutely. But that doesn't convert to ⁓ how labeling myself. And that can be a painful process to look at that. Mary Ann Williamson has this really great poem about our greatest fear is we are incredible, that we are amazing. I'm of course butchering this poem and putting it into my own words. And so ⁓ it's... There's a little bit of pain to be able to hear things that the negative self-talk says, but then we can confront it and we can say, where's the evidence for this? And I would say 999 out of a thousand, there is no evidence. Joe Abreu - Glovisor: But know, one question I do have is there people who may say, I don't myself a loser. They don't, you know, even though they may feel it, but they don't ⁓ say the But are they looking externally to find confirmation of what they're feeling? Although they don't to say the word. And that's why they continue to find themselves in the same situation in multiple different relationships that might not work or maybe finding the jobs that don't fulfill them. you seen that come often? Laverne McKinnon: Yes. I think it's a really astute observation well. It makes me think about primarily the people that I'm working with have a lot of negative self-talk. And there's also the where there's a kind of, I'm a victim and everything on the outside is wrong. And And so to keep going back to the self-examination, which is that's what we have to look at is what's my side of the equation and what's mine to own? And then what's the other side of the equation I unfortunately don't have any control over as much as I want to. Joe Abreu - Glovisor: Sure. So now we start to become self-aware, do we start getting stronger or if more experienced than do we start to infuse that process more often? Is it like a muscle like going to the gym and says, okay, I became self-aware today and then I'll do it again tomorrow. And if I continue to do that, now every situation or every feeling we can now start to dissect it almost automatically. Is that how it builds? Laverne McKinnon: Yes, I like to think about it from the perspective of fluency. if you're learning a new language, the self-awareness, personal self-development, know, initially I'm just like, hello, how are Good. And then as I develop more of the fluency because of developing my emotional intelligence, my self-awareness, my professional development, it starts to grow. Hey, Joe, how you doing today? And then it continues to evolve. It never stops. We just become more more fluent because then you and I start to develop a deeper relationship and then I can begin to have, know, the qualities of our conversation can start to take on different flavors and textures depending on what we both want and we both need. so it's so, it just, continues to build on each other. So I love your... ⁓ I always get metaphors and analogies mixed up. I love your metaphor a muscle that gets strengthened. And so a powerful way to look at it as well, along with fluency too. Joe Abreu - Glovisor: So another question that's come up for me is emotional burnout. We hear that very often. I'm burnt out. I'm emotionally burnt out. But what does that really mean? And I that are a lot of listeners who are emotionally burnt out and don't even realize that they are. So how can someone like recognize that that's what's happening at this moment? Laverne McKinnon: Yeah, it's their keep going back to this concept of grief because it doesn't disappear if it's not processed, it leaks out. And so it leaks out as burnout where I get short tempered. My fuse is like, ugh. And again, I keep going back to that muddled priorities. And there's related to that there's a capacity issue as well. And I don't personally have an expertise around how, we're just asked to do so much in our daily lives. And we really have the capacity for it? I don't It's like we can stretch ourselves. It's like going back to your gym example. It's like one day at the gym, wow, okay. I don't have a lot of upper body strength okay, I can press 50 pounds. I do that that day. If I try to go back that afternoon or the next morning, ⁓ I have the capacity for it. My muscles are spent. And so happening, or at least what I'm witnessing, is that we then turn the blame on ourselves. I'm not strong enough. I'm not doing properly. I'm lacking consistency. But I, to get on my soapbox for a moment, I want to go, let's push the pause button for a moment because you may be by yourselves, by other people, by the situations to do more than you actually have capacity for. But our society is telling us, you can have the American dream. You just have to work hard enough. You be this too if you just do XXX. So we keep pushing and grinding. And so will lead to emotional burnout. So we have to say ouch. Joe Abreu - Glovisor: mean, there's only so much bandwidth that we have and then the goalpost is moving around because just like we mentioned earlier, it's so uncertain. So you have to ⁓ mind, the old mindset of we'll just do more and well, how much more can you do? ⁓ There's only so much of you to go around. Laverne McKinnon: Right. Yes. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Joe Abreu - Glovisor: Now you talk about rising through life instead of just surviving it. What does that truly look like on a day to day? Laverne McKinnon: I'm going to use myself as an example, is, Joe, you I have had some sidebar conversations of how I've been over the last year or two to change my relationship with work. so thriving versus surviving, versus surviving, for me that means getting super clear on what are my values today. ⁓ versus six months ago, six years ago, a couple of decades ago. And so that I can thrive when I have clarity on my values and I live those values. Now, am I 100 % consistent? No. What I'm personally struggling with right now is that for my entire adult career, I've been living by a set of values that focused around productivity, efficiency, accomplishment. And so if I'm not focused on that as my North Star, what truly is important to me? so I'm in this dismantling, but I can already feel myself having more days where I feel like I'm thriving versus surviving and grinding because I can say, my value today is to be able to have this conversation with you, Joe. where I get to talk about something that I believe most people don't know about. So if I have to wake up an extra hour earlier, not doing that because I'm grinding and trying to be more accomplished. It's because I'm being driven by my desire to share something that I think can be really transformational. Joe Abreu - Glovisor: what habits ⁓ daily practices help become more emotionally grounded and resilient? Laverne McKinnon: Yeah. You mentioned journaling before. And while I don't want to say a blanket statement that everyone should journal, but if there's a daily or consistent practice with which you can be with your thoughts and help them get out of your head and be put out, whether it's through writing, through speaking, through music, type of expression, it can be artistic, you can make a painting. ⁓ You can knit a sweater, but just something that allows you to be with your thoughts that you can begin to understand them, that is an incredibly rewarding and beneficial The other thing that I was going to mention as well is ⁓ throughout our it's normal to triggered. It's like, ⁓ We have a meeting and this person is 20 minutes late and now I'm going to be late to my next thing. It's like, so our nervous systems get dysregulated. so something to one's nervous system. So you may have heard of things like tapping, different breathing techniques like box breathing, four, seven, eight There are a number of techniques that one can use that literally will take like a minute or two. and it helps regulate us. And the reason why we want to regulate is so that we can access our big, beautiful brains to help us say, I'm about to say or the action I'm about to take, is that aligned with my values or am I just reacting and putting toxicity into the world? Joe Abreu - Glovisor: Sure. like to just have my list of silly things that I have to do and then just go through it. Whether that's making change in my calendar or maybe just making a couple of copies just to change it up versus continue thinking about the same thing knowing that not going to lead me anywhere anyways. Laverne McKinnon: Yes, yes, exactly. I have to laugh at myself when I know. And I love that you have a list because I have a list too, which is so funny because you and I do this. This is like the nature of our work and but you and I still have a list. It's like, know there's something I could be doing to help myself in this moment, but I'm absolutely clueless of what that is. Oh, right. I have a list. Exactly. Joe Abreu - Glovisor: Hahaha! Yeah ⁓ That's right. Top of the list. Make a list. ⁓ So what would you say would be the biggest transformation that you witnessed in someone your approach? Laverne McKinnon: Yeah. Really two things. biggest transformation that I see is when people realize, have ⁓ to a professional heartbreak. Suddenly everything into place because most people have some exposure to grief and then they begin to understand. It's like, this is why I've been feeling lethargic. This is why my has been off. This is why I haven't been able to sleep properly. And it's like, and then the second most transformational moment is when they've created, designed a ritual and then execute it. It's like that writer that I had mentioned when she put that last shovel ⁓ the script that she had buried in her backyard and then reading that eulogy, when she said the words rest in peace, she had no idea that she was going to feel the way she felt. But was so transformational because she had agency over whether she was saying goodbye to that project or not. It was no longer externally other people's choices. made the choice that this was not going to happen. And that was like, it her into her body again. and she felt empowered. Joe Abreu - Glovisor: Now, have you been able to follow up since? Has she moved on to other projects? What has happened? Laverne McKinnon: Yeah, it's really interesting. Yeah, she continues to write and she continues to have success. And the thing that has been most amazing for her, not most amazing, but really amazing for her is that in her day-to-day life, she feels less stress and anxiety because she's no longer blaming herself that she did something wrong. She, through the mourning process, she was able to acknowledge what was her side of the equation. Was there something that she could do differently in the future, a new best practice that she could develop? she was able to release that most of it was out of her control. And so that and integrating those insights her career moving forward, greatly reduce the stress and anxiety because she was no longer jumping through hoops that kept moving or trying to, you mentioned the moving goalpost or trying to, you know, kick the ball across a moving goalpost. She knew what the goalpost was because it had gone back to the internal, what's important to me about writing this. Joe Abreu - Glovisor: Now when contacts you and you're to start the RISE approach, is this in person coaching? Is through books? Can you tell us a little bit about your process? Laverne McKinnon: Yeah, absolutely. I have a Substack. If people not familiar with Substack, it's a platform where it actually started with journalists and writers. So I have a weekly blog and newsletter, but there's a program through Substack that people can join ⁓ as a group. And I video lessons, worksheets. We meet monthly live so that people can come and ask their questions. So there's a very low cost way for people to work in a group setting to move through the RISE framework. then I also do retreats and workshops on just like a one-off basis. ⁓ then a lot of people do work with me one-to-one to through a morning process and have support for a professional heartbreak. Joe Abreu - Glovisor: Great. Now, who would benefit the most from reaching out to you? Laverne McKinnon: someone who's had a career setback, a professional loss, and it has a sticky quality to it, you feel like I keep ruminating. I keep thinking about it. I've worked with people who've had experiences that were 10, 15, 20 years ago, as well as six months ago. And I also just want to say that there Sort of like two different categories of losses when I think about terms of career grief. One a single grief event, I was fired. There are a lot of people that I work with who have death by a cuts. It wasn't one single event, but a series of events over time that is bringing to them to a place of loss. The dream happen. You know, I've been working at this for 10 years, that type of thing. Joe Abreu - Glovisor: Now if ⁓ remember ⁓ one from today's conversation, what would you want it to be? Laverne McKinnon: You have permission to grieve a professional loss. Joe Abreu - Glovisor: That's great. And it's so simple, right? But it's huge. What a difference that can make in someone's life when they realize it's not just you. It's we all go through this at one point or another, but to recognize that, that we be allowed and we welcome it. Laverne McKinnon: Hehehe Yes. Yes, absolutely. it to everyone. People don't talk about it because there's a lot of shame. And you're not wrong that we get judged. so that mean, though, that you should stop yourself from taking care of yourself because if you don't process the grief, it means that you're going to avoid risks. You're going to ⁓ avoid conflict. You're going to step around opportunities because you're afraid that something bad is going to happen. so there's a gigantic ripple effects. Joe Abreu - Glovisor: Absolutely. And I like what you said earlier, that it bleeds into other Laverne McKinnon: it does. Joe Abreu - Glovisor: So true, because it can impact every other aspect of your life. why is this no longer working? And it used to work, but it might be something else that happened maybe at work and now it's bleeding into your personal life. Laverne McKinnon: Yes, exactly. Joe Abreu - Glovisor: So where can people connect with you, follow your work and learn more about the RISE method? Laverne McKinnon: Yes. going to direct people to my website, lavernmckinnon.com, and can find all of my socials there and sign up for Substack as well and take little bit of a deeper dive on the framework. Joe Abreu - Glovisor: Excellent. Well, thank you, Laverne, for joining us on the Glovisor podcast and for sharing such important information. Laverne McKinnon: Joe, it's been such a pleasure getting to know you and having this conversation. I appreciate the platform in which to share information. it's truly, just really about letting people ⁓ know that may be having an experience that they don't have a name for yet, but there is one. So thank you for this opportunity. Very appreciative. Joe Abreu - Glovisor: You're welcome. today's episode helped you, inspired you, gave a new perspective on growth and healing, make sure to subscribe, share, and leave review. And to learn about Laverne and all of her visit lavernemckinnon.com. Till the next