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THE SECRET AGENT — Kleber Mendonça Filho & Wagner Moura on memory and manguebeat · MUBI Podcast

• 0:00
  Heads up, this episode includes spoilers.
• 0:06
  Couple years back, the Brazilian filmmaker Kleber Mendonça Filho was wrapping up his documentaryPictures of Ghosts a look back at the movie theaters of his youth in his hometown of Recife and suddenly he found himself writing the script for his next movie, also set in 1970s Brazil, a sometimes violent thriller but with the same bittersweet vibe as his documentary.
• 0:28
  I think first and foremost, I wanted to play with genre.
• 0:33
  If I have to go brutal, I would have to bring a lot of love into the story and a lot of affection and great people hanging out together.
• 0:45
  And all of that would be this thriller that I had in mind.
• 0:49
  And I think all the research that I did for Pictures of Ghosts, looking at old photographs, audio tapes, it put me in the right state of mind to write the script.
• 1:01
  Except, as he wrote, it occurred to him this wasn't really a movie about the past.
• 1:05
  I kind of realized that a lot of the logic that went into the script, which is set in 1977, was actually coming from the political times that we went through in Brazil with the last president who is in jail now.
• 1:21
  Who was not at the time when you were writing this.
• 1:23
  He was still in power, Bolsonaro.
• 1:25
  He was president. He was still in power.
• 1:28
  You know, the way he looked at government, he basically wanted to bring back the good old days of the military dictatorship in the '70s.
• 1:35
  So I was writing a film about the '70s, but with the logic of contemporary Brazil.
• 1:43
  The result is The Secret Agent. The movie is cool, absurd and harrowing as '70s Brazil and right now.
• 1:52
  It's the story of Armando.
• 1:52
  Once he was a research professor, now he's on the run from a government official who wants him dead.
• 2:00
  So he's living under a fake identity with a bunch of lovable political outcasts in a Brazil where dictatorship has made everything weird and dangerous.
• 2:08
  From the corrupt cops who mistake a Holocaust survivor for a Nazi, to the roadside gas station with a random corpse lying near the pumps, to his own stabs, in the middle of all this, at having a relationship with his son and his past.
• 2:24
  I'm Rico Gagliano, welcome back to the MUBI Podcast.
• 2:27
  MUBI is the global film company that champions great cinema.
• 2:29
  On this show, we tell you the stories behind great cinema.
• 2:32
  Season 11 is coming soon.
• 2:33
  Meanwhile, another special episode here.
• 2:36
  It's my interview with Kleber Mendonça Filho and his star Wagner Moura about The Secret Agent.
• 2:42
  The movie is up for four Oscars this month, including Best Picture and Best Actor for Moura.
• 2:47
  It's in cinemas right now and coming soon to MUBI in the UK, Ireland, Latin America and many other countries.
• 2:53
  The movie totally works as a thriller, but I wanted to learn more about the sly references and metaphors you can just tell probably carry extra meaning for a Brazilian audience.
• 3:03
  So you're gonna hear me get a primer from these guys on some of that, including the scene everyone's talking about, in which a disembodied leg goes on a late night kicking spree.
• 3:12
  We also get a crash course on the Brazilian music that shaped their lives and work.
• 3:16
  But my first question went to Wagner, who's become an international star off roles in the Netflix seriesNarcos and the hit movie Civil War, but hasn't been seen on screen speaking much Portuguese lately.
• 3:32
  Wagner, my understanding is you had not been acting- in Brazilian films for a while.
• 3:36
  - Yeah, man.
• 3:39
  What about this script drew you back?
• 3:41
  I can imagine 10,000 things, but what what first struck you as like, this is my return home?
• 3:46
  Well, first of all, it's Kleber himself, right?
• 3:49
  I wanted to work with him.
• 3:51
  If Kleber was going to direct a Disney movie, I would do it with him.
• 3:57
  I can't wait to see that film.
• 3:58
  Yeah, I can't wait to see that either, but...
• 4:02
  But no, but it was-- My conversation with him started a long time ago.
• 4:07
  You know, I met Kleber a long time ago.
• 4:09
  I met Kleber in Cannes back in 2005.
• 4:09
  He was still a critic.
• 4:13
  Then I started to see his short films, and I was like, really impressed.
• 4:18
  But then when I saw Neighboring Sounds, I thought that I had seen one of the greatest Brazilian films ever.
• 4:23
  And from that day on, I really, really started to talk Kleber to, so he could, we could work together.
• 4:31
  But then this time from 2018 till 2022 was when we kind of got together as more like-- When we connected as friends because of politics.
• 4:45
  Because we were both very vocal against the government and we were both suffering the consequences of what we were doing.
• 4:53
  For those who don't know, can you describe like, what was happening to the two of you?
• 4:57
  For any fascist government, the first thing that they attack is universities, art, journalism.
• 5:05
  So, and talk about myself like I directed a film about this time, about the dictatorship, about the real character called Marighella, who was the leader of the resistance, the armed resistance against the dictatorship.
• 5:18
  The film premiered in Berlin 2019 and I could only release the film in Brazil by the end of 2021 because they made it impossible, the government made it impossible for me to release my film in the country.
• 5:31
  And that was hardcore, man.
• 5:33
  It wasn't easy.
• 5:34
  So Kleber and I got together in that moment talking about, "What can we do about it?" So I think that the genesis of this film is that time, you know, and you can see that in the film.
• 5:46
  The film takes place in the '70s, but it has a lot to say about contemporary Brazil.
• 5:53
  Thankfully, not that much right now anymore.
• 5:56
  Yeah, well, It's okay.
• 5:58
  There's plenty of other places that are providing modern context for this.
• 6:03
  We'll get into that in a bit.
• 6:05
  I feel like your movies, Kleber, are so, kind of, based in place and...
• 6:10
  Especially your hometown of Recife.
• 6:12
  And there's a moment in the movie that it felt to me as a non-Brazilian, that is very important, but I'm not sure of what the context is.
• 6:29
  A couple of the villains in the story are grilling the hero, Armando, and one of the guys folds a napkin into a triangle and he goes...
• 6:40
  "This is the map of Brazil." And then he draws a line across the center of the napkin and says...
• 6:50
  "Down below this line, that's Brazil.
• 6:52
  "Up here is the North.
• 6:55
  "To each his place." What politically and culturally does that line demark.
• 7:03
  Either at the time or now.
• 7:03
  What does that mean?
• 7:05
  And by the way, Recife, and where many of the characters are based, is in the North.
• 7:09
  It's the classic political economic division that exists in so many countries and also in the world in terms of the North and South.
• 7:20
  Sometimes depending on the country, the South is poorer and the North is richer, wealthier.
• 7:28
  Sometimes the North is wealthier and the South is poorer.
• 7:32
  In the case of Brazil, I really think that the whole country was put together in the wrong way, almost like a Lego that didn't quite fit, but people declared it finished anyway.
• 7:44
  I come from the Northeast, myself and Wagner, in fact and there are separations which persist to this day, from big media being focused on the Southeast, Rio and Sao Paulo, to the way that the Southeast looks at the Northeast, the way that we look at them.
• 8:06
  One of the ideas in the film is that this corrupt government official, who also happens to be a businessman, he doesn't really understand or accept a research center in the Northeast because he was always taught to believe that the Northeast is regional.
• 8:24
  It would never be national or much less international.
• 8:28
  - It's the sticks.
• 8:28
  - It's the sticks, it's the sticks.
• 8:32
  And that's how the main character is treated, basically.
• 8:36
  And that's the basis of everything that happens and all the persecution that he suffered.
• 8:42
  You're both from that area, I mean, is that still-- Does that persist today?
• 8:46
  It persists in many ways.
• 8:47
  But of course, the Northeast is very strong culturally, you know, literature and cinema and music.
• 8:54
  For example, Lula comes from the Northeast.
• 8:57
  Your current president?
• 8:58
  Yeah, the current president, serving now his third term.
• 9:02
  So for many years, there was a lot of rejection to the fact that the presidential candidate came from the Northeast.
• 9:11
  Not only did he come from the Northeast, but he was a left-wing leader for Brazil and coming from the Northeast.
• 9:18
  So he had, and the country had, to overcome a lot of these prejudices.
• 9:23
  - I see.
• 9:23
  - So.
• 9:25
  It is a cultural and political reading that the film gives you, but it's not too hard to imagine.
• 9:34
  Maybe you can adapt your own version for the US or for France, Italy or any other country, you know?
• 9:40
  Sure. Although it's interesting, the idea that the sticks would be where the left leaning people were coming from is kind of-- That's unique.
• 9:46
  That's a really interesting observation.
• 9:49
  But the Northeast, just to give you an idea, is the one region with nine states where Bolsonaro lost in all nine states.
• 9:59
  So he had a bit of a chip on his shoulder towards the Northeast.
• 10:04
  So in a way, when that one character-- When the bad guy is saying,"Oh, this isn't even Brazil." In a way, there's an echo of that in the way Bolsonaro treated his opponents in the modern day.
• 10:14
  Exactly. Yeah.
• 10:15
  I can ignore you because you're not really Brazil anyway.
• 10:18
  It's too bad that it remains a thing.
• 10:18
  But it--- But it does.
• 10:22
  - But it does, yeah.
• 10:24
  Actually, I was gonna ask you, Wagner, you're from that region.
• 10:26
  - Are you from Recife?
• 10:26
  - I'm from Salvador.
• 10:28
  I feel like so much of Kleber's stuff is so Recife based.
• 10:32
  And I'm wondering if you have much of a relationship with that town?
• 10:36
  Yes, yes.
• 10:37
  I mean, I understand that culture very well.
• 10:40
  I have many family members that actually live in Recife and Recife is a very important city for me as well, because one of the greatest things that I've done as an actor in my life was a play that I did in 1999 that opened in Recife, which is not normal.
• 10:57
  Nothing really opens in Recife.
• 10:57
  But that play, we did it there because the director was from there, and that was one of the most important times of my life as an actor.
• 11:08
  So I got to live in Recife and know the city really well.
• 11:13
  So coming back to shoot The Secret Agent was actually very emotional for me.
• 11:18
  Not only because I had spent 12 years not doing anything in Portuguese, but then when that time came, I felt that I was in my element.
• 11:29
  You know, if I was, although I'm not from there, I felt very connected to the cultural codes that people from Recife share.
• 11:37
  But obviously, since you're not from there, you're not maybe as steeped in the whole history of that city.
• 11:43
  Certainly not the way that Kleber has now plunged deep into that action.
• 11:48
  Did you have to bone up on the history for this film, or did you osmose it from Kleber?
• 11:54
  No, to be honest, I knew a lot about Recife.
• 11:57
  I was always very interested about Recife and the culture of the city.
• 12:01
  There was, when I was there, for example, when I was doing this play there, Recife was still in a very high cultural moment called, manguebeat, you know, which is a music movement that shaped Brazilian culture...
• 12:19
  - Really?
• 12:19
  - ...back in the '90s. Yeah.
• 12:25
  The main name of that time is a guy called Chico Science.
• 12:29
  Unfortunately, he died in a car accident.
• 12:31
  But the idea was to mix influences from all over the world with Recife's folklore and the drums of a rhythm that's typical from there called, maracatu.
• 12:46
  So they presented themselves playing those drums with electric guitars in a way that I had never seen before.
• 13:02
  You should check it out. It's really cool.
• 13:05
  It's called, Chico Science e Nação Zumbi.
• 13:07
  They were endlessly influential on the way I looked at the city in the '90s- when I was coming out of university.
• 13:13
  - How so?
• 13:16
  They were the coolest thing that ever happened in the city, at least in the 20th century.
• 13:21
  And I happened to be from the same generation as them and I could go to the concerts.
• 13:27
  They really shook the way that media looked at culture and pop music in Brazil, and they attracted people from abroad, from other countries.
• 13:35
  - It was just so incredible.
• 13:35
  - It's very unique.
• 13:38
  Very similar-- I actually had an interview with Tony Wilson, the guy behind New Order and...
• 13:44
  - Factory Records.
• 13:44
  - ...Joy Division and the Hacienda, yeah.
• 13:47
  This would be the British manager/record label owner in the '80s and '90s, who hyped all the post-punk bands from Manchester like New Order.
• 13:56
  Yeah, yeah he was-- He's a great character in24 Hour Party People.- The movie.
• 14:00
  - Michael Winterbottom's film.
• 14:02
  But I had a wonderful conversation with him and he said that cities like Recife, Manchester, Seattle, they have similar profiles.
• 14:12
  They are not the center, but they are highly fertile in terms of, you know, producing culture and music and film and poetry.
• 14:22
  So that's what Recife is and the impact of manguebeat found a place in Wagner as a young Brazilian actor.
• 14:32
  And of course, it had a huge impact on me and my whole idea of making films.
• 14:44
  I thought for a second that we were totally wandering away from what this interview is about.
• 14:48
  But it is interesting that you both kind of mentioned this music as being formative to you as artists.
• 14:54
  How do you think that that may be reflected in this movie?
• 14:59
  - The influence of that--- Can I just say something?
• 15:01
  The first time I've heard about the Hairy Leg was in one of Chico Science's songs.
• 15:07
  Okay, wait a second.
• 15:08
  For those who haven't seen the movie, describe the Hairy Leg, which is one of the most insane moments in this movie.
• 15:14
  And that apparently is based in reality somehow.
• 15:17
  I thought this was a totally surreal thing when I was watching it.
• 15:20
  But explain this.
• 15:21
  I love, urban legends.
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  I'm fascinated by them.
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  And the Hairy Leg is an urban legend developed, created, in the 1970s in the local press.
• 15:33
  The police would come and, basically beat people up, especially people from the gay community, cruising in a park.
• 15:43
  And they would suffer violence and they would be sent to the trauma ward in hospitals.
• 15:50
  And that couldn't really be reported the way it happened because the police and the military police would come after them.
• 15:59
  So in an ironic, cynical, irreverent way, the newspapers would use the code, a character almost, saying that what actually happened last night was the Hairy Leg.
• 16:09
  The Hairy Leg attacked again.
• 16:12
  Yeah, this mythical disembodied leg.
• 16:16
  And the Hairy Leg became a phenomenon in Recife.
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  The cartoons were about the Hairy Leg.
• 16:21
  And it was also, stories told on the radio.
• 16:25
  And I always wanted to use the Hairy Leg in a film and finally, now I managed to find a way to bring it to the film.
• 16:34
  Wagner, you said you mentioned this as somehow connected to that music.
• 16:38
  That band, Chico Science e Nação Zumbi, they had a song where they mentioned the Hairy Leg and I was like, "What the fuck is it?" And then I started to...
• 16:48
  That was the first time I learned there was a Hairy Leg in Recife, kicking people, yeah.
• 16:54
  Oh my God, everything comes together.
• 16:56
  So that's one of the ways, obviously, this kind of plays into your movie.
• 17:00
  Is there a way that the movie's put together that is influenced by that music?
• 17:04
  No, I think Recife has a very strong personality in terms of having a very clear political point of view.
• 17:14
  And when that-- All of the music scene happened with the manguebeat in the 1990s, it was just a really cool moment when so much was happening.
• 17:27
  And it was the beginning of the internet.
• 17:27
  And we had these great bands.
• 17:32
  Chico Science e Nação Zumbi was the biggest band and then we had other bands, like Mundo Livre and Mestre Ambrósio, and they were all part of one movement.
• 17:43
  And that was so inspiring because you're so used to buying records from people who live thousands and thousands of kilometers away from you in other countries and now I was actually the fan of local bands I could just call or meet in the supermarket.
• 18:02
  So all of that was really-- It made me feel like I was in the middle of something and the middle of something was right here.
• 18:09
  So maybe you could do it.
• 18:11
  Yeah, of course we can do it, yeah.
• 18:12
  And I got to live in Recife back then, you know, when I was doing that play.
• 18:17
  So I could see how that movement was influencing in everything, in fashion, in movies, in music, you know, the way people would carry themselves.
• 18:29
  It was a very special moment to be in Recife.
• 18:32
  I can't help but think that it's a good thing that so many people are curious about Recife because they've seen it in the films.
• 18:41
  Some people actually say,"Oh, I visited Recife"because I wanted to get to know the locations of your film." It's something that I have done in other cities and I'm happy that people do it in my city, you know?
• 18:53
  By the way, if you think I'm not going, right after this interview, to Discogs and buying Chico Science records, you're out of your mind.
• 18:59
  - That's amazing.
• 18:59
  - You're gonna love it, man.
• 19:01
  But talking more about Recife, so the recreation of this era that you pull off here is so beautiful and so tactile.
• 19:09
  And having seen Pictures of Ghosts, I know that downtown Recife is now totally different than it was back then.
• 19:17
  What was the process of doing this recreation on, you know, probably not like a Disney budget.
• 19:24
  The Secret Agent cost five million euros or dollars.
• 19:29
  It's my most expensive film so far.
• 19:32
  It really comes from so many years of looking at the city.
• 19:36
  I've been photographing Recife since my teens.
• 19:39
  I really think that I learned to look at the city and know where to put the camera.
• 19:45
  And of course, with a good budget, you can get cars and work with great people who do costumes like Rita Azevedo.
• 19:55
  I think we really did a good job and great actors like Wagner and the whole rest of the cast.
• 20:02
  I'm very happy with the final result, you know.
• 20:05
  Wagner, I read an interview with you about this movie and its depictions of an authoritarian regime.
• 20:10
  And it's a kind of regime, as we've mentioned, I think many will tell you, is happening now in the US, maybe some other places.
• 20:16
  And you said something that I think is true, which is that maybe the US thinks democracy is a given because we've not had a dictatorship.
• 20:25
  But on the other hand, I've also heard, Kleber, you talking about this movie as being about like cultural amnesia, even in your own town, in your own country, which almost implies that even if you've gone through a dictatorship, you have to be reminded of it.
• 20:39
  - Yes.
• 20:39
  - Why do you think that is?
• 20:42
  What is it about a dictatorship that people just can't seem, even when they've lived through it, to shake the attraction of, that you have to keep telling this story over and over again.
• 20:52
  How long are we gonna have to tell this story?
• 20:54
  I think collective memory is getting shorter and shorter.
• 20:59
  I first came to understand this in terms of cinephilia.
• 21:05
  Every eight, maybe ten years, a new film comes along and there is a general reception or a general understanding that the film is completely original.
• 21:18
  But in fact, if you remember that 20 years ago there was a film that did the same thing.
• 21:25
  So every ten years you can have a new original classic.
• 21:29
  Imagine if something similar was done 55 years before or 70 years before.
• 21:36
  - Let's not even mention that.
• 21:36
  - Yeah, it's lost in time.
• 21:39
  And I think politically now, I don't know.
• 21:43
  We are getting to 80 years from the Second World War.
• 21:47
  We are going back in cycles, I think.
• 21:47
  And that is really scary.
• 21:53
  You know, looking at the situation and in Europe and in Palestine and Gaza, it just feels like the same mistakes are being made again.
• 22:05
  And that is depressing, you know?
• 22:08
  And it's almost like, memory has to be reignited every ten years.
• 22:16
  And sometimes a film can do that.
• 22:18
  It's not the film's primary function, I think.
• 22:22
  I don't make films as history lessons.
• 22:25
  But they may be used in some way to remind people that some bad things remain bad and they shouldn't be reutilized.
• 22:36
  Last year when Walter Salles' filmI'm Still Here came out in Brazil, I was at a screening, and on the way out of the screening, I overheard two teenagers and they said to each other,"I didn't know the dictatorship was so bad." And it was really crazy to hear that.
• 22:59
  At what point did they hear that it wasn't so bad, you know?
• 23:04
  So the film, in some way, reminded them.
• 23:10
  Kleber Mendonça Filho and Wagner Moura, their Best Picture Oscar nominee,The Secret Agent is in cinemas now and coming soon to MUBI in the UK, Latin America, lots of other places.
• 23:21
  For tickets and showtimes in your country, check the show notes of this episode.
• 23:25
  And that is the MUBI Podcast for now.
• 23:27
  Next time, we're gonna hear from a guy who I almost guarantee is gonna be part of the next wave of Oscar favorite filmmakers, Akinola Davies Jr.
• 23:35
  His heartbreaking, BAFTA winning movieMy Father's Shadow is also about the importance of remembering your past, especially when there are forces trying to erase it.
• 23:44
  The history that's been taught for generations and generations is a version of history.
• 23:49
  History is written by the victors.
• 23:51
  By definition, the people who lost had their history sort of scrapped.
• 23:55
  Beautiful movie and a great person and filmmaker.
• 23:58
  Follow us so you don't miss it.
• 23:59
  Meanwhile, if you love the show, do leave us a five star review wherever you listen, won't you?
• 24:03
  It helps others find and love us too.
• 24:05
  And if you've got questions, comments, or are maybe listening in Brazil and just want to tell me all about it.
• 24:09
  I'm so into your country.
• 24:12
  Email us at podcast@mubi.com And now let's roll credits.
• 24:17
  This episode was written and hosted by me, Rico Gagliano.
• 24:20
  Ciara McEniff is our producer with help from assistant producer Kat Kowalczyk.
• 24:23
  Christian Coons edited this episode.
• 24:25
  Our original theme music was composed by Yuri Suzuki.
• 24:28
  Thanks this week to David Harper for recording Kleber and Wagner.
• 24:31
  This show is executive produced by me along with Efe Çakarel, Daniel Kasman and Michael Tacca.
• 24:37
  And of course, to see the best in cinema, subscribe to MUBI at mubi.com Thanks for listening.
• 24:42
  Hope you go watch some movies.