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Cold Case: Chuckie Mauk Killer Still Free · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:09
  Speaker 1: Chuckie's family lived right behind the bowling Alley on Burns Drip.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: He'd write his bike to a nearby convenience store all
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: the time to buy kendy. But one February night was different.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Sometime when we're moving through a new uh, someone heard
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: a lad pop. This is crime stories, but Nancy Grace,
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: a lot of people saw flames. Hookually would be different
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: fing away because they have crowned. Within the next two minutes,
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: Chucky's time to see. They're thankfully community that when communicate
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: at that time, the mode what happened to kipping alt
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: Animal has romot. Hello, you are listening to crime Stories
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us. Also
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: joining is a woman that I have come to not
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: only respect, but to care for very deeply as we
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: both continue our search for justice in the death of
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: her little boy, Chucky Mock. Just imagine this eight pm
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: in the evening your home with your family. You know
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: that moment when you finish supper and you've cleared off
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: the table and you're washing the dishes, and a knock
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: comes at the door, and nothing is ever the same
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: for the rest of your life. With that knock at
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: the door. Everything changes with me is Kathy Miller. Kathy,
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: thank you so much for being with us. Thank you, Nancy, Kathy.
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: I want to go back in time, got to last
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: time that you spoke to your little boy, Chucky Mock
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: who is I've looked at the picture of him and
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: his baseball outfit, I know a thousand times. The last
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: time you spoke to him. It was heavy on your
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: heart because you didn't turn around and look at him.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: And I don't know why that aspect, that little fact
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: bothers you, but you tell me the story. Well, it
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: was Monday, and Chucky had been sick like all weekend.
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: This was his first day back to school, and we
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: had just finished eating supper. I was, like you said,
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: I was just doing the dishes and he said, Mom,
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: I'm going to run to the grocery store. And I said, okay,
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: you know, just be back soon. And I did not
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: turn around and look at him. You were at the kitchen,
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: Saint right, yeah, And I just said go ahead and go. Now,
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: wait a minute, I want to I want to clarify something.
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: The grosser two stores you're calling it, um was only
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: what two blocks away? Not even two blocks? I mean
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: you could walk to Giant Foods in about five minutes.
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: I mean it was just like right up the street
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: was catty cornered right, and you just turn you go
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: across the parking lot. It's there is um I've looked
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: at the area many times. There is a thoroughfare where
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: there are store fronts and red lights, and then you
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: go back a block and turn into like a little
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: neighborhood and if you go as the crow flies, you'll
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: cross over and you'll be at the little grocery store
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: in no time at all. So for him to hop
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: on his bike, he could be there in a minute
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: really by on his bike exactly exactly. So you're at
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: the sink. You're at the sink with your back to him.
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: He goes, can I take my bike to get I
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: guess bubblegum or candy? And he did that almost every day.
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: That was his big treat to go yeah, okay, so
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: what happens? And then I'd say go ahead, and you know,
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: before I know it, you know, he's flown out the
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: door on his bike and he's gone, and about I
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: don't know, it was about thirty minutes, maybe not that long.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: One of the little neighbor girls came to the door
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: and said she saw Chucky and she thinks he's hurt.
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: So I run, just thinking, you know, he's falling off
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: his bike and maybe her broke his arm or something.
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: So me and my husband re run up there. It's
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: just I mean, I can see him from my driveway,
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: and you had your six year old, Chucky's little brother
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: into Greg. Pete had grabbed Greg two, and we were
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: just all running up there. Pete got there before I did.
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: I mean, have you anybody listening, have you ever tried
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: to run with your child into You're dragging them along
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: by the hand. It's hard. I can just imagine you
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: coming out of the kitchen. I was like, yes, and
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: I was just like running in slow motion because I
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: knew it was so much more. Why wait, wait, wait wait,
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: How when did you get that premonition? Pick me up?
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: You leave the house, You've got your six year old
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: Chucky's little brother, and you've got your husband, Chucky stepdad.
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: And what happens? And we're just running up there, and
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: I mean right from the end of our driveway, you
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: can see where he's laying. I mean, we're really that close,
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: and he was just laying there. It was so still,
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: and I knew. I knew. I just knew because he
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: was so still. He was so still, and the closer
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: I got, you could see the blood and it was
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: just And then my husband stopped me before I got
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: Chucky completely and told me that it was Chucky. He
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: was dead. So at a distance, you're going as fast
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: as you can with a six year old boy, inte running,
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: and you see your son, your little boy, lying sprawled
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: out on the pavement of a convenience store parking lot
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: beside his bicycle. I was told later he still was
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: holding a pack of bubble gum in his hand. He
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: had the bubble gum and the cash registry seat still
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: in his hand, so he that's how he knew what
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: time he had left the little grocery store. To this day,
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: Kathy Miller recalls a horrible sense of dread as she
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: ran as fast as she could, that foreboding, that feeling.
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: She was running in slow motion as she sees a
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: crowd of onlookers already congregating, and she sees her son
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: lying on the pavement of a convenience store parking lot.
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: How did you know Chucky was dead? I knew because
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: he was so still, and because by the time my
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: husband had gotten to him, he got to check it
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: before I did. He identified Chucky and he stopped me
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: because he didn't want me to see and he said
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: that it was Chucky and he was dead, and I
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: knew there was so much blood and he was so still.
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: What did you think at that moment? What did you
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: think it happened? I just I just didn't know. I
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: tell you, from the moment he told me Chucky was dead,
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: I kind of went away in my head. I just
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: went away. It was the only why I could handle it.
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: I guess. I don't know to this day, I don't
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: know what really happened to me. But they thought it
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: was a hit and run. And when they turned him over,
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: the bullet had gone to the back of his head
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: and entered and came out his face, the side of
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: his face. So Chucky was shot from behind mm hmm,
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: face of his neck. The um shot severed his brain stem,
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: so they said he died instantly. You know, Cafe, I
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: wonder to this day about what my fiance went through.
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: And he was shot, and I can only pray that
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: he was immediately unconscious. Now, you know, according to the
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: medical examiner. Chucky died instantly. But you have told me
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: in the past that you think of him lying in
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: a parking lot, a dirty parking lot. Did he need you?
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: Did he think of you? Did he call out for you?
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: Does that to this day haunt you? To this very day,
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: that does. My head knows medically that Chucky died instantly.
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: He probably never knew, But my heart says, you know,
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: that's my child. Did he need me and I wasn't there?
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: You know? It was he scared and I wasn't there,
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: And my heart and my head tells me that he
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: he died instantly. He probably never knew, but my heart
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: tells me that I was he scared and I wasn't
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: there to help him. That always will be with me,
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: you know, Kathy. All of these people that have had
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: these near death experiences, they die and they're resuscitated, and
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: they talk about what happened. Sometimes, when I am still
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: beside myself about Keith's murderer or my father just passing away,
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: I will stay up till three and four in the
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: morning listening to those accounts. And they say, if they're
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: to be leave, that you are immediately in another place,
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: that you are immediately outside your body and feeling no
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: pain whatsoever. And I gotta tell you I hold on too,
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: that I really do. So. Even though the medical examiner
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: says he died instantly, as fast as a speeding bullet,
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: you still wonder. Yeah, I do the same thing, Nancy.
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: I read all of that, and I read these passages
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: and I know it, and I do know that in
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: my head, but still in your heart. It just you know,
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: it's so hard. It's just so hard, Cathy. When you
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: say you quote went away when your husband told you
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: Chucky was gone, What do you mean? What does that
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: feel like to quote go away? And it's such it's
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: such a strange feeling. And you know, and I think
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: if I if I say it allowed, people will think
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: I'm crazy. But I don't think you're crazy. You know.
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: It's just like I would talk. I could hear myself
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: telling myself in my head. It was just like I
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: was talking to myself saying, you know that to calm down.
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: Are just things too. It's it's so hard to put words,
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: but too, I guess it let me get through what
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: I had to get through without mental mentally breaking down
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: completely and just losing it. It helped me get through this.
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: His the funeral, you know all of that. My mind
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: just told me to do things, and it just sounds.
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: You once told me that you heard a voice in
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: your head saying at the funeral, that's not Chucky. Chucky's
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: not there, Chuck, He's playing in Mississippi right now. He's
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: not even here. And it was your voice in your head.
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: It was my voice in my head. And I put
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: him in places like you know, he'd be in Mississippi
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: because that was his favorite place to go to be
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: with his grandparents. And just to get through going into
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: walking into that funeral home. That's how I got through it.
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: It just said, remember, it's not him, he's in Mississippi,
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: and I got through that night. I want to understand
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: something you're saying. You were telling yourself that as you
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: walked into the funeral home. I had a similar experience.
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: When I went into the funeral home where Keith was
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: at a distance, I saw his coffin and I saw
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: just a portion, a tiny sliver of his face, and
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: immediately my knees buckled and I passed out. I never
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: went further or got closer to his casket, and to
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: this day, I find the smell of um carnations and denauseating.
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: I cannot stay end to smell them. That's why I
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: don't really that's like going into a florist. It's just
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: it over. I hate it. I hate going into a florist.
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: Me too, I just can't hardly stand it. That smell
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: is that it's the smell of a funeral home of
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: Oh okay, you're the first person ever that I have
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: talked to about that end. In my first fiction book,
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: Eleventh Victim, the protagonist can't still the stand the smell
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: of carnations. And that's you know, me writing. I've never
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: mentioned that. I find that so odd that you think
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: that when I smell a carnation or it gives me
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: just chills. It takes me right back to that moment, exactly,
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: right back to all those flowers. It's just it is.
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: I try to avoid florists, isn't you know? It's just
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: that smell. Let me ask you this, when you got
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: through the funeral, when did it hit you, not that
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: just that Chucky is gone. Chucky is dead, but somebody
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: killed him. He didn't die a hit and run, He
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: didn't get sick of the hospital. Someone killed him. When
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: did that really sink in? I guess it really sunk
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: in at the cemetery because I noticed there were police
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: under like undercover policemen there just watching, And I guess
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: that's what I knew, that someone intentionally killed him. You know,
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: it's the funniest things that stick with you. You remember
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: seeing undercover cops at Chucky's cemetery. I remember that, all right.
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: I'm just processing that that. That is the memory, one
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: of the memories you have. What do you you know?
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: Cops tell you this, investigators tell you that. Wouldn't this
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: just tell you this? Kathy? What do you think happened
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: to your boy? Nancy? I have ran so many scenarios
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: and I've heard so much that maybe this happened, and
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: maybe this happened, or it could have happened like this
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: that I just I just I don't know. I can't.
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: I can't understand it. I can't make something. It just
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: doesn't make any sense. I can't. I don't know. I
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: just now we do know this. We know that a
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: white vehicle scratched off took off from that parking lot,
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: either at the time of the shooting or shortly after
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: the shooting. I'm talking about minutes after. There are very
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: few facts to go on at the time. The shooting
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: witnesses insist Chucky was on his bike, just like he
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: told his mom, who was with us today, heading for
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: gum at the local convenience store. He stopped seemingly to
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: answer questions from a man. The man driving a white
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: Oldsmobile cutlass or Buick. Interesting Kathy, witnesses say, I'm not
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: sure of their timing, but they seemed to think he
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: spoke to the guy twenty minutes. Is that possible? Was
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: he even gone that long? No, I don't I don't
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: think you. I don't think it was that long. I
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: think it was just a matter of minutes that he
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: was seeing taught leaning. He was off his bike leaning
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: talking to this person or person's in this car. Something happened,
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: He turned quickly to get back on his bike, and
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: that's when they shot him at close range in the
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: back of the head. So I just feel whoever did
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: this on him dead well. I'm wondering if he spoke
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: to them that long, did he know them? Was it
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: somebody in the neighborhood or somebody in the community. What
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: do you think knowing Chucky he would have to know
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: them to have stopped to talk to him, to talk
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: like he was like getting off his bike. I feel
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: he had to know this person. Or what if it
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: was somebody trying to lure him into the car and
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: he said no and turned around to leave, so we
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: know it was we think it was a white male.
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: Do we think it's a white male, Yes, that's what
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: we think so far, and a white oldsmobile or cutlass
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: people in the car. How many to the driver and
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: a passenger? Do we know if the passenger was a
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: male or a female. I don't know that. Let me
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: ask you, when you have gone over the facts in
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: your head, do you recall police investigating. Did they go
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: to every home in the neighborhood. Did they determine whether
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: there was a relative staying in the home or a
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: visitor that could have followed Chucky or seen him there?
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: Do you know about that? I was told by the
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: investigating officer at the time, the lead investigator, that yes,
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: they did do that. The lead investigator that time has passed,
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: so he is dead now, So I don't you know.
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: That's what I know from back then. That's what I know.
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: I don't know if there was surveillance video in that
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: seven eleven was there No, No, there wasn't And what
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: information we know is just from someone that was in
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: a car that passed by and saw Chucky. One of
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: his friends was in a car passed by and told
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: their dad, there's Chuck. And then they went on home.
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: They heard what had happened. They went to the police
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: and gave a composite drawing of what little bit they saw.
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: And tell me about the composite drawing. What did it
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: look like? He had like acne scars. He looked rough,
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: if you know what I mean, just kind of rough
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: and actne scars. That's what I remember seeing. Is this
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: the driving driver or the passenger? And you know, I
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: think it was the driver. Is the I think that's
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: who that composite was of the driver. This little boy,
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: just in the seventh grade, loved pac Man skateboarding. He
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: played shortstop on his little league baseball team, the Red Legs,
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: and he was so proud he had the highest batting
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: average on the team. Who would do this, and not
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: only who would do this, but who could have kept
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: it a secret for all of these years? You know, Kathy.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: Another thing you told me was about a stigma attached
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: to having a murdered child. How would it be different
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: if Chucky had died of an illness or a car accident.
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: I how I noticed it is you know, they'll say, well,
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: what happened to your child, and always say that he
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: was murdered. I see this look in people's eyes. It's
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: just like hm, you know, And I just want to say,
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: you know, he wasn't a bad child. He wasn't a
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: kid that was in trouble. You know. He was a
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: very good kid. He was well liked. You know, he
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: wasn't bad. He wasn't doing anything bad. And it's like
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: I have to defend him. He had never been in
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: trouble a day in his life. He made good grades,
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: He was home every night for pete sake. He was
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: just in the seventh grade. He loved pat Man, he
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: was a star in a baseball team. I want to
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: say he wasn't doing anything wrong. He wasn't buying drugs.
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: You know, he was just get bubble gum. It was
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: in his hand for Pete's sake. You know, Cathy has
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: really got me riled up. Is what that woman said
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: to you that day. Do you remember the woman you
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: told me about yes, what happened? She it was someone
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: that I had was taking care. I worked at a
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: doctor's office, and it was someone that a patient. I
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: don't know how to say that, you know, without saying
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: you know who she was. There was a woman that
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: came in your office. Yes, and she saw in my office,
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: she saw a picture of Chucky and she said, are
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: you Chuck's mother? And I said, you know, yes, And
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: she must have known about him, and she just said that,
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: you know, when parents don't take care of their children,
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: God calls them home. Well, when she said that, it
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: hits something deep inside me because I always thought, you know,
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: if I if I had just watched him, if I
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: had just said no, if I had just you know,
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: I shouldn't have let him go, it really is my fault. Well,
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: she hit on all those insecurities, and it took my
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: breath and I had to walk out of my office.
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: And I was absolutely hysterical because what she said was
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: something that I had kept close to my heart, and
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: for a long time I believed that it was my fault.
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: I was the one that said you could go to
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: the store. You know, I should have been a better mother.
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: I shouldn't have let him go. It was all those
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: should have two we do to ourselves, And she hit
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: on my deepest, darkest secret, and I'll never forget it.
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: I'll never forget how she made me feel. People tell
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: you all, I've had so many things said to me
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: that you know, you think you get hardened to it,
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: but you really don't, because in the deepest of your
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: heart and in your mind, it's what they say, is
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: what you have said to yourself. You know, you you
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: blame yourself. You know I was supposed to protect him
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: and I didn't. You mean there have been more people
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: than just her. Yeah, you know, I've had It's just
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: people just say such awful things like well, you have
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: one less room to clean. I've had that said to me. No,
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: you did not tell me that. Um, yeah, that was
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: that was one that was told to me in the beginning,
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: by yes, by someone what do you say, mack See,
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: I would be so taken aback, I would not even say.
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: I just can't even speak. I just I just can't
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: even I just can't even say anything. I don't know
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: what to say because I, first of all, I just
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: can't believe these words came out of someone's mouth. You know,
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: how do you say? I don't know. I I just
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: don't know how people can say such hurtful things to
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: someone that is hurting. But people don't know really what
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: to say to people. Sometimes. After Chucky was killed, you
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: could not stand to ride by that store every day
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: to live in that house anymore. You moved and you
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: took all of Chucky's things very carefully with you to
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: your new home. Was there an incident in your home
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: where all the pictures fell off the wall? Yes, what happened.
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: We were we were moving in and I was hanging
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: all the pictures and they all fell down. They all
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: fell off the wall. Now were any of those pictures
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: pictures of Chucky? They were all pictures of Chuck. It
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: was just Chuck's pictures that fell. You were hanging up
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: Chucky's pictures. You had them all up on the wall,
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: all of them with nails. And you walk out of
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: the room, and when you walk out of the room,
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: you hear a crash and turn around and race back
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: in the room. And what did you see when you
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: went into the room. They were all on the ground,
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: that had all fallen off the wall at once. I
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: can't explain it, but they were just all off the wall.
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: Was your other son in the room? Did he say
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: anything at all? What did he say? Yeah? He we
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: I guess we have always felt that Chuck was here,
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: and he just felt like Chuck was here with us.
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: And I don't know, Nancy, if I ever told you
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: about what happened on the first year anniversary of Chuck's death,
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: about the phone call I got, no what happened. I
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: answered the phone and it was a woman on the phone,
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: let me take you back. I always thought that maybe
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: someone had kidnapped Chucky, that that really wasn't Chucky, that
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: maybe somebody had kidnapped him. And I was waiting for
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: a phone call that I knew people were going to
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: call and ask me for money. That was another way
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: that was my mind talking to myself. Well, I got
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: this phone call in the first anniversary of his death,
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: and this woman said, UM, I have your son. Do
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: you want to talk to him? And I said yeah,
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: and this little voice said hey mama, and then they
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: hung up. Oh how awful. And so I went berserk
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: because I knew that was Chucky. And I remember calling
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: my parents and telling them that we have to get
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: all our money together, that they're going to call back
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: and ask for money, you know, and then everyone had
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: to sit me down and say, oh, how awful, Who
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: did that to you? You know? I used to dream
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: that Keith, my fiance, it was not dead, he had
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: not been murdered, that really he just wanted to start
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: a new life, and that many years passed and I
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: found out he was somewhere else, or that he was
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: disabled from the gunshot, and he didn't want me to know,
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: and he had been alive all these years, and I
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: could go find him, and I would go find him. Horrible,
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: horrible dreams, Nancy. Why do you think we think these things?
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: You know, as I think it's the way that maybe
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: we can just survive this. I don't know. I think
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: because I wanted it so much. I wanted him to
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: be alive so badly that I would dream that, and
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: in that dream I could I think that maybe it
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: hadn't all happened. But I'm thinking about who would be
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: so cruel as to call you and put a child
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: on the phone like that. You know what, just for
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: a few moments, I was so happy, you know, that
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: he was alive and maybe I was getting him back.
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: And then, you know, after I called my husband, he
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: was at work. He came home and you know, they
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: all had to sit me down and just so it
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: just like for that year, it put me back like
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: a holt another year, like, Okay, I just heard it
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: that he's really dead. It was just so much on
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: It just was so awful. But just for a moment,
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: I can remember thinking, he's true, he is alive, and
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: but it really wasn't. I knew it. He is alive.
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: This was all they're wrong. That wasn't him. I knew, yeah,
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: I said, and I kept thinking in my mind was saying.
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: I tried to tell everybody that you know, that couldn't
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: be Chucky was somebody that had his bike. I knew
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: he was alive. I just knew it. That was just
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: I guess my way to survive. That's what I had
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: to believe. Was there a time when your son, Chucky's
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: little brother said he saw Chucky run through the home? Yeah, Chuckie.
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: Gregory was really little then when he said that. And
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: what were the circumstances surrounding that, greg was we had
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: just moved in our house and that's when greg said, Mom,
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: I saw Chucky just walked down the hallway. He just
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: passed me. I was wearing blue jeans. Yeah, he was
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: in his jeans what he always wore. Greg just told
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: me that recently. And he saw that because I would
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: tell Greg's strange things happen in this house, and he said, Mama,
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: I saw a check here. But then, you know, Greg
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: was very little. You know, he was only in the
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: second grade when Chuck died. That makes me believe him
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: even more. Kathy. You know when I would put witness
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: on the stand, and I gotta tell you, I know
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: I put I had to have put over a thousand
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: witnesses on the stand. There's no question. I found children,
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: to me the most believable witnesses. They don't always talk
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: the way we talk. Sometimes you have to unlock their
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: language to understand what they're saying. But I found them
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: to be the most truthful witnesses I've ever put on
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: the stand. Um next to a dog. I once had
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: to bring in a dog witness and I'm pretty sure
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: the dog wasn't lying. Kathy, I want to put out
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: the tip number today, um, the tip line for any
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: inform nation in the murder of Chucky Mock. At that time,
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: a seventh grade boy who loved skateboarding and Pat Man
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: and was so proud to be on his little league team.
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: This occurred many years ago, but Chucky is not forgotten.
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: He will never be forgotten. This occurred in Warner Robins
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: Georgia and Kathy. I guess you'll never forget. The date
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: February seventeenth, nine six at eight fifteen p m. The
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: tip line is four seven eight five four two to
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: zero eight five or four seven eight five four two
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: two zero eight zero. Kathy were never given up. We're
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: never giving up, right, I'm never giving up hope either.
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: By friend