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"Wayne Teasdale: The Mystic Heart and Interspirituality" Ep#31 · Spiritual Hot Sauce

• 0:00
  Chris Jones: Today, Brian Muldoon and I are sitting down to dive into the life and work of Wayne Teesdale, the monk and muffler who famously coined the term interspirituality.
• 0:11
  Chris Jones: Now, full disclosure, some of what Brian Muldoon shares might be a bit uncomfortable to hear.
• 0:18
  Chris Jones: But I don't think it's meant to tell you what to believe, but rather challenge us all to figure out what we believe.
• 0:28
  Chris Jones: Welcome.
• 0:29
  Chris Jones: I'm Chris Jones.
• 0:31
  Chris Jones: This is Spiritual Hot Summice.
• 0:37
  Chris Jones: So I am back with Brian Muldoon.
• 0:40
  Chris Jones: It was so good we had to come back and do it again.
• 0:42
  Chris Jones: Except this time we're going to have a conversation, deeper insight into Wayne Teesdale and his teachings, and also into Brian's personal journey of faith.
• 0:52
  Chris Jones: So, Brian, welcome back to the SUS.
• 0:54
  Chris Jones: Good to be here, Chris.
• 0:56
  Chris Jones: So we were just talking about before we got on into this, the Brian has got so many different things going on.
• 1:02
  Chris Jones: This guy's rushing around trying to make time to get here to do this episode.
• 1:07
  Chris Jones: So, first of all, thank you for making time.
• 1:11
  Chris Jones: So let's just jump right in because I know you're limited on your time.
• 1:15
  Chris Jones: Tell me about how you met Wayne Teesdale, what you thought about him when you first met him, and then how that all kind of unfolded till you get to the point where you say he changed my life.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I was doing a lot of inner work with sort of retired Methodist pastor named Hal Edwards in Chicago.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: And Hal's ministry was really to clerics and religious officials from every tradition.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: He ran small groups with them, so a rabbi would be sharing with somebody from the Greek Orthodox Church and so on.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: And one day Hal asked me if I would come and do a bit of a presentation on a retreat he was running for these clerics.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: I said, Well, I'm I'm the last person in the world to be preaching to the to the not only the choir, but uh to the pastors up there.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: But he said, No, I think it'll give him an interesting perspective.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I gave a talk about the the path being off the path, because I I always seemed to be uh avoiding the traditional roots and taking the alternatives.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: And while I was there, Hal said, Well, there's a monk here at this monastery, St.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: Pacopius, that you that I know you'd get along with.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: So you you should meet him.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: And that was Wayne Teesdale.
• 2:43
  Chris Jones: About what year is this?
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: This would have been like 1992 or so, let's say.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: And and and so I met Wayne, and he Wayne had lived at a couple of other monasteries besides St.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: Procopius in New England and and around.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: And more even more interestingly, he'd been ordained as as a monk in India, in not just the Catholic tradition, but the Hindu tradition as well.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: And Wayne describes this in his book, The Mystic Heart, that that he saw parallels as had the founders of an ashram in India, parallels between Advaitic Hinduism and apophatic, what's called apophatic Christian mysticism.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: Let me share a little bit about his personal story.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: Wayne was the illegitimate child of a very suspicious relationship between his biological father and a cleaning woman who worked at their home.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: Wayne was disavowed and disowned by both of them.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: He was set into the world as an orphan.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: He lived with, I think, seven different foster families and was completely unloved and uncared for.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: And one day, when he was in high school, I think, he was sitting on a park bench reading, and a gentleman came by and said, Young man, why are you not in school?
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, Well, because it doesn't matter anymore.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: None of this matters.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: And and this was a guy that he referred to as Uncle John.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: Just out of the goodness of his heart, this complete stranger said, Well, this is not okay.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: You need to be educated properly, and I'll see that you are.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: And and Uncle John basically became Wayne's de facto parent.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: And he not only put him through high school but through college.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: Wayne ended up with a PhD from Fordham University in mysticism, and it took up communication with a former Oxford Don named Bede Griffiths, who was the abbot of a small monastery in South India.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: And Bede invited Wayne uh to join their community.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: Bede had had uh was maybe the third abbot that this Shantivanam had uh as its uh leader.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: And it was founded by a couple of Jesuits, I believe, who believed that on the mystic path all traditions uh merge into one.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so they celebrated both uh as you say, Advaitic Hinduism celebrated Mass with readings from not only the Christian scriptures, but also from the Vedas.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: And Wayne was part of that uh tremendous history, very experimental.
• 5:51
  Chris Jones: That explains a lot.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: Wayne found his way there.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: And he happened to be in London one point, and somebody came up to him and said, Are are you going to the meeting with the Dalai Lama?
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: And he goes, I don't know anything about what you're talking about.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: He goes, Oh, well, over at such and such a place, the Dalai Lama's meeting with a group of Christian theologians and monks, and you should probably go.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, Oh, that sounds really interesting.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: So he did.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: And when when Wayne showed up, the only empty chair was the one sitting right next to the Dalai Lama.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: So he took that.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: And for the rest of the meeting, the Dalai Lama only spoke to Wayne.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: He sensed something very powerful about that connection.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: And from that moment, they became very close friends.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: As you know, Thomas Merton, the great uh Trappist monk and Zen practitioner, had been a a close friend of the Dalai Lama since 1968 or so.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: And with Merton's unfortunate death, the Dalai Lama really had nobody on the Christian side to share with, and Wayne became that person.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: He personified the Christian ethic.
• 7:08
  Chris Jones: Aaron Ross Powell So do you think and I'm not asking you to speak on behalf of Wayne, but did Wayne ever share with you in your time with him that he thought that that was divine intervention, or did this just kind of happen?
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell No, I think he definitely felt the guidance of God in that connection very strongly.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: And Wayne, for all of his interfaith and interspirituality, was first and foremost practitioner of Catholicism and believed very much that God had created that that connection.
• 7:43
  Chris Jones: Aaron Powell I think he made the quote that I am a Christian by faith, but a Hindu by culture and a Buddhist by temperament.
• 7:50
  Chris Jones: That's an interesting quote.
• 7:52
  Chris Jones: And that but that's a very in-depth quote, too.
• 7:54
  Chris Jones: It was a very thoughtful.
• 7:55
  Chris Jones: Yeah.
• 7:56
  Chris Jones: All right.
• 7:56
  Chris Jones: So he got connected with the Dalai Lama, and they became friends in the Dalai Lama's connection to Christianity.
• 8:05
  Chris Jones: And how did you come to form a relationship with him, a friendship that how he would change your life?
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell Well, in 1993 in Chicago, there was a big interfaith event called the Parliament of the World Religions.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: And when we first met at his monastery, fell into conversation about each of us and our pursuits.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: Wayne said, Well, there's this big event coming up, and I'm on the board of trustees for the event, and I'd I'd like you to make a presentation at the at the Parliament.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: And let's do one together.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about men's spirituality.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about the interfaith path that each of us has walked in in our own way.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll do a workshop on that.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll call it a monk in the world.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: Because I was a civilian outside the monastery, but I love going to monasteries, retreat, and for meditation and contemplation.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: And Wayne was an insider who always wanted to be out.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: So it was a very strong friendship from the Trevor Burrus.
• 9:15
  Chris Jones: So you guys had a very nice connection.
• 9:16
  Chris Jones: So do you think that that was divine intervention as well, or did that just happen?
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: They could have been messing with it.
• 9:36
  Chris Jones: However, it came about, it came about.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: A brilliant, brilliant woman who understood every tradition extremely well and was conversant in all of them to the point that she was actually able to facilitate the best expression of these many religions at the Parliament.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: Her mind really encapsulated the whole thing.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: So Wayne and Barbara and I became kind of a triumvirate over time.
• 10:19
  Chris Jones: Aaron Ross Powell Is It's in that place where you developed that relationship with Wayne?
• 10:25
  Chris Jones: Yes.
• 10:25
  Chris Jones: But it would carry on for years, though.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell Yeah.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: And and Wayne was especially good friends with Tenzin Chogil, T.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: C., the Dalai Lama's younger brother, who just passed away in the last couple of weeks.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so he was sort of a family favorite for the Dalai Lama.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: Stayed at the Kashmir Cottage, which is where the Dalai Lama's mother lived, and was welcomed throughout Dharmsala.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody knew him as the Dalai Lama's buddy.
• 10:57
  Chris Jones: Aaron Powell So I have a question for you.
• 10:59
  Chris Jones: I everybody can go see Wayne Teesdale speaking.
• 11:03
  Chris Jones: There's a lot of videos out there.
• 11:04
  Chris Jones: He's had a author of a lot of books.
• 11:06
  Chris Jones: But what was your personal relationship with him?
• 11:09
  Chris Jones: Was you more impacted with his teaching or the friendship?
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell I I would say his friendship was his teaching.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: I mean he could converse with with the best of them in terms of, you know, what what are what's the nexus and connection between Advaitic Hinduism and Christian mysticism, but who he was as a person was was really his teaching.
• 11:36
  Chris Jones: So what is it that impacted you so much that you would say he changed your life?
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know, Chris, I I when I met Wayne, I would say I was kind of a wash in a somewhat despairing materialistic worldview.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: Had been disappointed in in many ways with my my inability to find the true path.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: And when I met Wayne, all that lifted.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's fair to say that my relationship with him was was one that was benefited by grace.
• 12:13
  Chris Jones: So before you were struggling to find your personal experience with the divine or your truth, and after Wayne it made the path clear, you understood it.
• 12:26
  Chris Jones: Is that a fair assessment?
• 12:28
  Chris Jones: Am I getting this right?
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell Yes.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: And and he he provided a lot of very generous coaching and teaching along the way.
• 12:36
  Chris Jones: Aaron Ross Powell Share some of that with me so I kind of know what you're talking about.
• 12:40
  Chris Jones: I would like to experience that with you through your story.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: Well, for for example, I was in Dharmsala, India, with with Wayne on one occasion.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: We were gonna meet with the Dalai Lama to prepare him, let him know about a conference called synthesis dialogues.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: As we were walking up to sort of his official residence, there were 20 or so lepers who were sitting on blankets by the side of the road.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: And with their hands out, they were, they were begging.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: Wayne was just shocked by this.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: He, when we got together with with one of the top monks in the Tibetan government in exile, Wayne said, What is it with these monks?
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: You th you think everything uh should be divine and spiritual, and yet here are these people who are suffering from a terrible disease begging outside the palace, this is not all right.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: These people need to be cared for and loved and supported.
• 13:48
  Chris Jones: Aaron Ross Powell So he was an advocate for the less fortunate.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell Always and was not shy about embarrassing any of his friends in other spiritual circles.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: And he was especially appalled by the U.S.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: government's failure to support Tibet in its struggles after having been conquered by China.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: So he lived the the very best of Christianity.
• 14:15
  Chris Jones: Aaron Powell I was going to say that sounds like the manifestation of a disciple of Christ, because that's what we were told to be discipled in, is how he loved others.
• 14:23
  Chris Jones: Yeah.
• 14:23
  Chris Jones: So he was always like this.
• 14:25
  Chris Jones: He was always moved by people that were hurting or needy, especially the less fortunate.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: And not just people.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: He felt the same compassion for the environment.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, when he was later ordained by the Archbishop or Cardinal of Chicago, Francis George, part of his ordination was a ministry on behalf of the planet as well as a ministry on behalf of the people of Tibet.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: Just a short story about that.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: There was Interfaith Conference in Grand Rapids, Michigan, a number of years ago.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: And Wayne was giving a presentation there with Houston Smith.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I was there to just observe and support Wayne.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I was in a meeting with some other people, and Wayne came rushing in, and he said, There's a terrible emergency.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: I need to have everybody come with me so we can intervene.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: And we're like, I th I thought somebody had been assaulted.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: So Wayne led three or four of us to one of the missions, an AA mission.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: And uh there was a really rough tech crowd, I have to say, hanging around and looking at this group of folks who seemed to be full of themselves.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: And Wayne just came up and he said, he said, Did did you see that little bird that fell out of its nest?
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: It was right here, and I put a piece of bread right next to it.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: And the guy goes, Are you one of those guys?
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: He goes, Me too.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: I found a baby squirrel in my backyard, and I've been taking care of it ever since.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: And Wayne was like, Well, I don't know where that little baby bird went, but we we need to find it and take care of it.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: And that, I mean, he was not shy about interrupting the entire schedule of this conference to take care of a baby bird.
• 16:20
  Chris Jones: Aaron Powell Being a good steward, yeah.
• 16:23
  Chris Jones: So let's go back to where you were talking about these lepers.
• 16:26
  Chris Jones: That was begging for for money.
• 16:30
  Chris Jones: And you've seen Wayne have such an outpouring of compassion to the point that he would voice his concerns and opinions to the people in charge there.
• 16:41
  Chris Jones: Sure, with a great amount of conviction.
• 16:44
  Chris Jones: You said you named this as one of the primary things that you know impacted you and changed your life.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: Well, i it wasn't just that he complained to the authorities about their not taking care of these lepers.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: He insisted that I come up and be with them.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so I did.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: So he and I both went up, we got to know who they were, they brought their family members along.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: No it seemed like nobody had ever actually paid any attention to them.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: And we kind of got a feeling for the pecking order of the group and what they needed and why.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: And it was just extremely touching.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: And then a year later or so, I was back in Darmsala, and a cab driver came up to me and he said, Your friends are waiting for you.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, What do you mean, my friends?
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: He said, Well, come with me.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: And all the leopards had leopards had gathered uh an alleyway and held out their hands.
• 17:51
  Chris Jones: Let's talk about this for a second because that's a pretty powerful moment.
• 17:55
  Chris Jones: Uh and what I'm hearing is most people would walk by, or most people would give money.
• 18:03
  Chris Jones: You know, and then that's we've done our part.
• 18:05
  Chris Jones: We we've almost just kind of soothed our own guilt, you know, or made ourselves feel better.
• 18:11
  Chris Jones: But that's not what he did.
• 18:12
  Chris Jones: What he did was is he made them the priority.
• 18:16
  Chris Jones: These were the people in need.
• 18:18
  Chris Jones: So he did everything he could to not only give an immediate, you know, comfort of money, but he also wanted to change their circumstances and he got to know them.
• 18:28
  Chris Jones: There's something very Christ-like in that.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, for sure.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: Because for him, everyone in need was his brother.
• 18:40
  Chris Jones: So you are impacted by love and compassion and the stewardship, this Christ-like behavior from Wayne Teesdale.
• 18:47
  Chris Jones: And this starts impacting you differently.
• 18:49
  Chris Jones: It starts hitting you and it starts changing you.
• 18:52
  Chris Jones: What starts changing in you from that?
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I I would say up until that point, compassion was was optional for me.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: There were times that I would and times that there that I wouldn't respond.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: And and I feel like Wayne p planted a seed in me by his example of what it means to actually love your neighbor.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: And everybody is your neighbor.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: And and he lived that.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, being at the Parliament of the World Religions there was a wonderful time to see how that played out in other traditions as well.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: I I remember there was one religion, which I won't name, that was having a a big presentation on caring for the homeless.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: Well, some some social activist in Chicago got about 30 homeless people together and brought them into the presentation where they were ejected by security forces.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like that ain't it.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, uh everybody's had Shadowside, I think, gets exposed from time to time, particularly at events like that.
• 20:11
  Chris Jones: And did you ever see times in your life or in Wayne's life where it was just people in your path?
• 20:19
  Chris Jones: It was almost like they were placed there in order for you to help them because you would help.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I I I uh at the time I definitely did feel that these opportunities were being provided in in some fashion that I couldn't quite describe.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: There there was a a kind of synchrony that certain people would show up at certain times.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: I I I don't want to place too much emphasis on that because I think life and the world unfold according to their nature.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: But but I I there have been obviously a number of of things that I've been fortunate to experience that in many ways are are une uh explicable.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: Inexplicable.
• 21:12
  Chris Jones: So you had said that Wayne planted this seed in you through his behavior, through this love.
• 21:18
  Chris Jones: Did he help cultivate that in you?
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he did.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: Wayne w was uh was a great teacher.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: He taught but the teaching that I'm most grateful for was what he gave to my children.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: Wayne was over for dinner on a pretty regular basis, and my three kids were in middle school at the time, and he he just took them to heart and and would give them little lessons that he felt they would be able to understand, and you know, built a a beautiful relationship with them, just that sort of Uncle Wayne vibration.
• 22:00
  Chris Jones: So Wayne, it sounds like just lived in the moment.
• 22:04
  Chris Jones: Where he was, that's who got his attention and his love.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, living in the now.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: He he was definitely that.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: But but he he showed how to cultivate that.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: He talked about his own spiritual practice and how the benefits of that.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: He gave teaching just in a casual way on meditation technique and the different forms of meditation.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: So being with Wayne at any point, something was was going to emerge.
• 22:39
  Chris Jones: You start evolving and you start changing because you said that you just didn't know where to go.
• 22:45
  Chris Jones: You fought hard to find some spiritual truth in your own life, and you just was not successful until Wayne and he showed you love and planted a seed in that of how you was to see the world.
• 22:58
  Chris Jones: What happened with you to start cultivating this and start growing, where you started having this spiritual growth yourself that became open?
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell Well, I think one one of my beliefs is that meaningful, long-lasting interchange is not just a matter of what happens in your head, but how you live.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: That improvement or growth in in one's spiritual life, for it to work, has to be put to work.
• 23:30
  Chris Jones: Aaron Ross Powell So we started seeing the external virtue happening.
• 23:34
  Chris Jones: What was internally happening?
• 23:35
  Chris Jones: What does that transformation look like?
• 23:50
  Chris Jones: Because it's when you say path, just so I understand, are you are you talking about the path of externally loving other people and helping humanity?
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: Trevor Burrus Actually putting it into action.
• 24:02
  Chris Jones: Now did you practice things like meditation?
• 24:04
  Chris Jones: Did you read any scriptures?
• 24:06
  Chris Jones: Do you currently read any text or higher writings or philosophy?
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell For Geez, probably 40 or 50 years I've been practicing meditation.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know, Wayne gave me a lot of one-on-one instruction in that.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: So that definitely strengthened my meditation practice.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: And Wayne's practice was meditating twice a day and also going for like a one-hour walk.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I started not every day, but taking up that practice as well.
• 24:41
  Chris Jones: Did you start reading anything to challenge yourself with some of different ideas and philosophy other than just and I shouldn't say just love because that is everything to me, but was there other things that was pushing you in kind of a spiritual development of your own personal faith?
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell Well, I I would say uh uh attempting to understand the principles of of nondualism.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: So reading things like The Cloud of Unknowing, very interesting books on that which cannot be said, non-conceptual meditation, and the mystical language of unsaying, if you're familiar with that, basically teaching us how to think in a non-conceptual way.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: To be able to say things like, well, I am God, God lives within me, and of course I'm not God.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: That kind of dialectic.
• 25:43
  Chris Jones: Trevor Burrus, Jr.: The divine spark.
• 25:45
  Chris Jones: Yeah, the divine spark that's in you, that's in all of us.
• 25:47
  Chris Jones: Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Yeah.
• 25:48
  Chris Jones: That's what you mean.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: But not as going beyond having a a conceptualization of what that means.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: In other words, as as human beings, it seems like about the the highest level of our cogni cognition is to uh appreciate the mind of God.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: But that uh that's uh impossible to do.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean is there a way of encountering the divine without reducing it to a object-subject dualism?
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: So that is it's not an easy challenge, and I think that's why practices like meditation are so important, that we can somehow ha have that connection without limiting to the conceptual structure that that we deal with in everyday life.
• 26:42
  Chris Jones: Your experience that you had that is so undefinable, but yet transforming, even if you could put it into words, it's not going to help me at all, is it?
• 26:52
  Chris Jones: I mean, the truth is that's your experience.
• 26:55
  Chris Jones: Right.
• 26:56
  Chris Jones: That we all have a path and we all have things we have to work out.
• 27:00
  Chris Jones: And we can share our journeys and encourage one another to get busy on our journeys, but you can't take my truth and live it as your truth.
• 27:10
  Chris Jones: Right.
• 27:10
  Chris Jones: It just doesn't work like that.
• 27:12
  Chris Jones: Right.
• 27:12
  Chris Jones: So And you've it sounds like you've read books that speak more of enlightenment, of a Buddhist perspective without being Buddhist.
• 27:21
  Chris Jones: And kind of from the Vedantic view from Hinduism.
• 27:26
  Chris Jones: Have you ever gone back and reconciled where you came from in your faith, of your origins, of your religion, or is that something that Oh no, it's it's uh a regular part of my life.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm one of eight siblings in an Irish Catholic family.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: I have a brother who's a deacon in in the church, very involved in uh a lot of baptisms and funerals and sermons and all that kind of stuff.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, each of us finds our path or or doesn't, but we're all walking it whether we know it or not.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: And sharing I mean, I think the best we can offer to others is is to share our own path and say, let's walk alongside each other for a while here, as long as it makes sense.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and if we have to go our separate ways, that's good.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I think a big part of this is learning, at least in in my case, learning to accept that everybody is doing the best they can.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: We need to support each other in in whatever way we can.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I am constantly finding uh new insights uh into what spirituality really means.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's a constant process and a delightful one.
• 28:46
  Chris Jones: Aaron Ross Powell What's something you could give to somebody else to help them?
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell Well, the thing the first thing that comes to mind is uh facing our own shadows in kind of a Jungian way that that each of us tends to undermine and sabotage our own spiritual growth and looking for ways that that is occurring and addressing that.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's a very kind of real-world slog through our own failures and misjudgments and poor choices.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: But that's the stuff that that we need to address, to me, in discovering our own spiritual nature, is is addressing all that shadowy stuff that we'd rather not look at.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 29:35
  Chris Jones: We are the mountain that keeps us from God.
• 29:37
  Chris Jones: Yeah.
• 29:38
  Chris Jones: Yeah.
• 29:38
  Chris Jones: Overcome yourself and you know, okay.
• 29:41
  Chris Jones: So you're saying tackle the hard things.
• 29:44
  Chris Jones: Use doubt.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: Use doubt on the doubt.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: Doubt to me is the way.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's not doubt isn't a problem.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's our uh it's uh the challenge to make sense and and dive as deeply as we can.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what are what are the reasons I'm doubting?
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: Are there valid reasons for this?
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: Have I adopted something that actually is indefensible?
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: And and so looking at at all the hard stuff is the way.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: Find friends uh on the path.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's just really important.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, in in Buddhism, they they talk about the the three essential pieces being Buddhist doctrine and the practice of it and and being part of a Sangha or community.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's really important.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just address our loneliness, but that's what opens us up, I think, is loving response from from those who who've got our backs.
• 30:46
  Chris Jones: Aaron Ross Powell We need a community.
• 30:48
  Chris Jones: It's to encourage you to keep going, you know, encourage you to keep running your race.
• 30:52
  Chris Jones: That's what it should be.
• 30:53
  Chris Jones: And if it's not doing that, it's probably not the right community.
• 30:56
  Chris Jones: Aaron Ross Powell Right.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:57
  Chris Jones: Great, Chris.
• 30:58
  Chris Jones: Yeah.
• 30:59
  Chris Jones: What's the last thing that you would leave everybody with?
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the the the Jesus character in in my book, The Luminous One, his his doctrine, his understanding is all reduced to the demand to love everyone, everywhere, all the time.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: I think if we're able to move in that direction, then there we're going to find a lot of powerful gifts along the way.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's it's obviously really, really difficult and challenging to love those who we feel are destroying the world around us or have given us uh some reason to hate.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: And to overcome that, that's where we start, and that's a powerful, powerful path, I think.
• 31:43
  Chris Jones: Aaron Ross Powell A man has been poisoned, you don't give him more poison to fight the poison.
• 31:48
  Chris Jones: You have to give him the antidote to the poison.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell Yes.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: And love is the antidote.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:53
  Chris Jones: Aaron Ross Powell You think Wayne would be happy with where you've come to if he'd say you've done well.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell I think so, yeah.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's because Wayne was a very forgiving person.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's fair.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm not going to say it's well deserved.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just saying he was he was a great friend.
• 32:14
  unknown: Yeah.
• 32:16
  Chris Jones: Let's talk about the Luminous One.
• 32:17
  Chris Jones: You've got this book.
• 32:19
  Chris Jones: And uh the last time he was on here, that's we talked a lot about that.
• 32:22
  Chris Jones: Yeah.
• 32:23
  Chris Jones: But you also have Mind University.
• 32:25
  Chris Jones: Is that correct?
• 32:26
  Chris Jones: Mm-hmm.
• 32:27
  Chris Jones: Tell us a little bit about that.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell For the past nine years, along with my friends uh Rebecca Armstrong and Andrew Shepherd, we have created what we what we hope is at least a partial way of training our minds to not fall under the spell either of AI or of the negative influences that have taken over the Internet.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: So thinking, good thinking has never been more important than it is now, because literally the the future of the human race depends on it.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: And good thinking is not something that you get just by reading a book.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's something that your brain has to be trained for.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: And very few of us are trained in that way.
• 33:16
  Chris Jones: So a lot of us are trained what to think, but not how to think.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: And critical thinking in in all of its dimensions is really essential.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: So Mind University is uh depending on how you do it, a 12 or 15 unit program for training the mind, how to avoid cognitive bias, how to keep ourselves from being propagandized, or uh uh to have our our minds shaped by forces outside of our control or even knowledge.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: So we'll we're hoping to launch that uh soon.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: And there's there's just a lot to it.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: It seems the deeper we go, the more work there is to to deal with it.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: So we're hoping to get that out soon.
• 34:02
  Chris Jones: Aaron Powell Just one last question I forgot to ask.
• 34:05
  Chris Jones: Do you consider yourself to be a disciple of Wayne?
• 34:08
  Chris Jones: Hmm.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: I I would say on my best days.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh on my best days.
• 34:17
  unknown: Yeah.
• 34:18
  Chris Jones: I think you should write that book.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I I do want to put in a plug for for Wayne's book, The Mystic Heart, though.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: Because for those who are wondering, you know, what is this stuff about, he it he's got beautiful explanations of all that you and I have been talking about and how they all fit together.
• 34:38
  Chris Jones: So Brian, I appreciate you coming on the thumbs.
• 34:42
  Chris Jones: And uh I'm sure we'll chat again soon because I might enjoy these chats.
• 34:45
  Chris Jones: Me too.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 34:47
  Chris Jones: Thanks, Chris.
• 34:49
  Chris Jones: Thanks for joining me here on Spiritual Home Song.
• 34:52
  Chris Jones: I'd love to hear from you.
• 34:53
  Chris Jones: So please reach out with questions, comments, and opening.
• 34:57
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• 35:01
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• 35:05
  Chris Jones: And if you enjoy the flavor of the sauce, then please share it with others.
• 35:09
  Chris Jones: Appreciate that.
• 35:10
  Chris Jones: We'll see you next time.