Latest / The You Project / #2217 Kicking Down The Vulnerability Door - Christian O'Connell

Transcript

#2217 Kicking Down The Vulnerability Door - Christian O'Connell · The You Project

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: G'day team. It's the Bloody You Project. Of course it is.
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: What else would it be? Who else would it be
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: but me? Fatty Harps just coming at you live. Not live.
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: It's live at the minute, but you'll hear the recorded version.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: I'm pretty excited because we've got a big deal. How
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: do I know he's a big deal? He said to
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: me before we were chatting, I'm a big deal. So
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: announce me like that. Completely not true. Christian O'Connell, are
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: you a big deal or not really?
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: I don't think anyone's that big a deal. I've interviewed
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: big deals. I've met big deals and they're interesting people.
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: I'm yet to meet the real big deal. I don't
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: think it helps ourselves even if you were a big
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: deal or to think you're a big deal. I don't
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: think the world needs more people that think they're big deals.
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: The people that think they're big deals are screwing up
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: the world and the people around them.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: Wow, you just right out of the gate some wisdom
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: and some insight.
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I like that. It's pretty good, isn't it?
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, fuck yeah. That's good. Keep going. Okay, Eddie.
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: I am.
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: How is that? I was thinking before, so your new book,
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: and we're not here to plug that, but we'll plug
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: it anyway. We'll talk about it mainly because I think
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: it's a fascinating title and area and insight into the
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: human experience. That's great. This separation between you, the bloke, Christian,
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: the bloke, Christian, the dad, Christian, the husband and thinker
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: and the bloke who has all his own bullshit and
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: issues like all of us. And then Christian, the personality,
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: the persona. And my insight into you for what it's
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: worth is that you are someone who has managed to
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: do high level media work. without the persona bit. Like
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: it just seems like talking to you before the show,
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: talking to you now, listening to you on radio, seems
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: like there's a very small gap. I'm sure there's a gap,
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: but between almost private you and public you, it almost
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: seems one and the same.
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: I think that shortening that gap has been my... mission
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: and that's been my path to authenticity and I think
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  Speaker 2: that's the same for everybody I think you know to
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: get out of our To get out of childhood and
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: teenage years, we all have to adopt a persona. That's
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: the only way you can do it. It's hard getting
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: out of the teenage world, getting into the real world.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: It's harder than launching a rocket, getting that terminal velocity
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: to really get out into the real world and then
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: suddenly confronted with the real world. You realize, oh, it
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  Speaker 2: doesn't care about my dreams and my vision board.
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  Speaker 1: No.
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  Speaker 2: You've got to have your way with the world, not
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: the world with you. And so the world will crush
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: you a million times over the course of your life.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: And so I think everybody has to adopt a persona
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: to survive your 20s and 30s. It's needed. And then
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: I think as you get older, you start to realize,
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: I certainly did. I got into my 40s and I
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: don't know how old you are, Craig, but I found
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: personally when I got into my 40s, the best way
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: I could sum it up is that's when shit gets real.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: And all these defense mechanisms. All these successes you want
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: to build in your life, they will all be challenged
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: and they will all be kind of like rocked to
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: the foundation. They were for me. I look back now
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: and that was only for a good thing. I didn't
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: realize how much I was living in a persona, actually.
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: I built an act. And it was a successful act.
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: But eventually, my mid-40s, I was feeling quite trapped and
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: constricted in it. And I really felt this more because
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: as my daughters were getting a bit older and entering
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: their teenage years, They would say, I heard you saying
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: this on the radio, but you said this to us.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: And so they were getting confused about who I really was.
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: And I didn't like that. And so, yeah, I really
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: felt there was too much of a distance then between
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: what I really felt, what I really said. And I
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: just didn't want to become an avatar. And there are
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  Speaker 2: a lot of people in my industry who are frozen
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  Speaker 2: into an act. I just didn't want to be, I
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: didn't want that. And so I guess a very overreaction
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: crate to do that is to move to the other
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: side of the world and Australia. You don't need to
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: do that. In fact, don't do that, okay? You don't
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: need to move to the other side of the world.
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  Speaker 2: There's far more calmer, smaller ways to do it. But
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: that was essentially what moving to Australia and starting again
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: in Australian radio after 20 years in the UK, that's
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  Speaker 2: what that opportunity gave me. It was a radical stripping
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: away and moving more towards– shortening that gap and now
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: it's really interesting years ago when i started in radio
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  Speaker 2: in 1998 i was obsessed with only one thing my
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: only metric was being the funniest person on the dial
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  Speaker 2: that was it and i worked everything was about that
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: and um i achieved that now it's so funny my
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: relationship with what i do is completely different it means
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  Speaker 2: more to me when people say you're real or when
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: they meet me they go i'm so glad uh you're
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: just like how you are on the radio um I,
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  Speaker 2: it means the world to me. Authenticity means far more
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  Speaker 2: now than like being, just being like a heat seeker
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  Speaker 2: for what, where's the next funny, where's the joke, where's
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  Speaker 2: the joke. So the fact that you said that, that
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: means the most to me. I think my favorite people
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: who are friends and even the people, my peers who
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  Speaker 2: I really respect, they have this comfortableness. They just move
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: through life and their day to day. They're not, I
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: think a lot of us, I was certainly like this
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  Speaker 2: for a lot of my life, almost like a shapeshifter,
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: quite a chameleon. how I would speak in certain situations
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  Speaker 2: to try and get approval, try and get validation from people.
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  Speaker 2: Then afterwards, I'd hate myself for feeling like that. I'd
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: feel exhausted for trying to keep up this act. And
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  Speaker 2: I was performing my life, really. And so now there's very,
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  Speaker 2: very little of that. And I'm so much happier.
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, beautiful. I think when we're growing up, we're taught
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  Speaker 1: and told and trained to think that success is something external.
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  Speaker 1: Like it's about what you have, what you do, what
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  Speaker 1: people think you, your brand, your bank balance, your dough,
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  Speaker 1: your car, your, your part, whatever. And for me, that was,
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  Speaker 1: that was my model. It's like, it's all about getting stuff,
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: owning stuff, doing stuff, getting recognition, climbing the whatever ladder.
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  Speaker 1: I got to a point when I was about 32
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  Speaker 1: where things were going wrong. Well, from the outside looking in,
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  Speaker 1: I was successful, but the inside out I felt shit,
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  Speaker 1: like physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually bankrupt. And people did
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: not know that. And it was because for me anyway,
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  Speaker 1: I was trying to resolve internal stuff with external stuff.
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: which is why we keep moving the goalposts. You know,
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: it's like, well, once I get there, I'm good. And
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: then we get there and we go, actually, I'm not good.
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  Speaker 1: I must be on the wrong mountain. It must be
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: that mountain over there.
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's totally that. If that, then this. You know,
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  Speaker 2: if you get somewhere else, think fails somewhere else or
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: achieve something else, then you'll be happy. And you're right,
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: you get it. And it's kind of like with Donald's.
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: it's like they're dirty calories. It doesn't nourish you for
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  Speaker 2: more than 10 minutes. And you're like, oh, I still
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: feel the same unease and a bit of emptiness inside.
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  Speaker 2: It isn't what I thought it would be. And then
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  Speaker 2: you're like, well, what do I do now? What next?
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  Speaker 2: This was the game. We've been raised to play it
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  Speaker 2: like this. And yet I feel really, I've achieved, and
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  Speaker 2: yet internally, in terms of my happiness, I feel really unfulfilled.
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  Speaker 2: And it's actually frightening, isn't it? Because you think, well,
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  Speaker 2: what do I do then?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: I guess the dichotomy is on the one hand, you've
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  Speaker 1: got to do stuff. You've got to have a business
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  Speaker 1: or a job. You've got to make dough. You've got
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  Speaker 1: to pay bills. You've got to do all the practical stuff.
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  Speaker 1: But in the middle of all of that, there's still this, well,
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  Speaker 1: for many people, there's still this disconnect. There's still this hole.
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  Speaker 1: There's still this sadness or anxiety or overwhelm or whatever
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  Speaker 1: it is, despite the fact that from the outside looking in,
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  Speaker 1: it's all shiny for some people anyway. Getting to the
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  Speaker 1: point where you go, well, which is a real self-awareness moment.
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  Speaker 1: I've got all the things or a version of all
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  Speaker 1: of the things that I wanted, but I actually feel worse.
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  Speaker 1: What is that about? What is that about? Where does
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  Speaker 1: fulfillment Where does calm live? Where does contentment live? Like,
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  Speaker 1: what is that? Does it correlate with all my shit
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  Speaker 1: or not? You know, so for me, trying to go
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  Speaker 1: on that psychological, emotional, spiritual, call it whatever you want,
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  Speaker 1: that kind of journey of trying to figure out who
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  Speaker 1: I am, like beyond my stuff, like it's consciousness is
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  Speaker 1: almost everything. The beginning of consciousness is recognizing your lack
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  Speaker 1: of consciousness because we're just so groundhog day. We do
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  Speaker 1: what we did yesterday, day before, week before, month before.
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  Speaker 1: You know, so.
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  Speaker 2: Many people I talk to. It's so much, isn't it,
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  Speaker 2: being alive right now, right? It's overwhelming. We need these
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  Speaker 2: automatic programs. We just do. But what happens is they
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: are running us. And so that's why I called the
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  Speaker 2: book Unscript, because I was trying to think of a
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  Speaker 2: way that I could explain to people. Because most books
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  Speaker 2: about storytelling and speaking, they always just focus on the
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: low-hanging fruit. eye contact, where to put your hands, and
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: that kind of bullshit is easy. You teach someone that,
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  Speaker 2: and yet suddenly someone says, hey, quickly, can you just
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: get up and say a few words at a family
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  Speaker 2: gathering or take this meeting? And they fall to pieces.
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: And so I was like, until you really look at
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: the root causes of why in certain situations speaking is hard,
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: because everyone has how to speak. It's a flow process.
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: But in certain situations... suddenly an old story or how
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: you feel about yourself in that moment comes up and
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  Speaker 2: that's what creates the disconnection and blocks. And so the
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: easiest way I could explain it was about the scripts
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  Speaker 2: we have. And if we're not aware of them, they're
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: running every single interaction you have. Most of them are
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: installed at childhood, you know, through schooling. And then that's
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: why the book is unscripted. It's to actually delete, get
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: rid of those scripts that aren't serving you anymore. They're
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: actually creating a harder connection for you. They're leading to disconnection.
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  Speaker 2: And so it took me a long time. I used
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: to think, Craig, that the really good radio shows were
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: about preparation. And they weren't. They were about presence. You know,
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  Speaker 2: I'm at my best. And I think it's the same
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  Speaker 2: for any job or whether you're with your family and friends.
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  Speaker 2: The more present you are, the more internally grounded, the
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: more regulated, the more centered you are, the more fully
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: resourced you are to your own genius, your wisdom, creativity,
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: problem solving, sense of humor, playfulness. I think, yeah, presence
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: is the key to all of it for a happy life.
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: It's so interesting the way that like our thinking, our beliefs,
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  Speaker 1: our ideas, as you said, you're used to another word,
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: but I use the word programming, conditioning, whatever it is.
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  Speaker 1: You kind of, when you're a kid, you're told who
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: you are and how you are and what you are
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: to an extent. And then you wake up one day, hopefully,
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: and you're whatever, 14, 18, 24, 61, whatever. And you
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  Speaker 1: realize that you've been living a script as your book explores. Um,
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: And you're being who people told you to be. Even
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: things like questioning, is this my belief or is this
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: dad's belief? Or is this my church's belief or my culture's? Like,
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: why do I think this thing? Where did it come from?
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  Speaker 1: Did I choose it? Did I choose this belief or
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: did it choose me? And what's the byproduct of that?
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  Speaker 1: Have I ever thought critically about that? Because, you know,
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: within the context of groups, whatever the group is, whether
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: it's a family group or a social group or a
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: religious group, part of you feels obligated to be that
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  Speaker 1: or live that or because then people, then there's a
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: chance of if I don't think like everyone else in
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: my echo chamber, I'm going to be rejected or disconnected
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  Speaker 1: or unloved. So it's very hard to be authentically you
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: sometimes when you feel compelled to be what everyone wants
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: you to be.
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, what you've talked about there, I think that fear...
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: of speaking up and speaking out and being judged and excluded,
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  Speaker 2: that's a primal thing. That comes from really, our survival
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: was about fitting in with the tribe. Because actually, if
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: you got kicked out of the tribe, or we spoke
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: out of turn, or maybe challenged a leader, or you
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: were seen as weak then, and you were thrown out
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: of the tribe, you'd probably die. So literally, I think
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: that's where we get the language, I died on my
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: backside up there. I think it really does come, that's
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: what we get frightened of. speaking up and not just
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: public speaking. I define public speaking as any time there's
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: more than two people. And so that can be in
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: a team meeting at work or on Zoom or a
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: Microsoft Teams thing. And so that fear is very real.
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: It's hardwired into us, you know, that programming to fit in.
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: And then it's also about validation and approval. So it's
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: very easy for people to say, you should be more vulnerable,
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: you know, and so in vulnerability is important. Vulnerability is
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: one of those words that some people get kind of
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: a bit irritated by these days. So I I have
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: a different understanding of it. For me, it's more about,
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: for me, same thing is being undefended. Anytime I feel
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: that I'm defending some part of myself, I'm always like,
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: all right, just whose voice is this? Is this dad?
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  Speaker 2: Is this a script from childhood where, you know, suddenly
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: you're 10 and the teacher calls you out about a
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: school project and you're feeling that, okay, you're not 10,
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: you're 53. you are running your own team meeting, you
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: can dial down the overreaction right now. Just go, okay, sorry, guys,
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: I'm getting a little bit hot here. Let's go again.
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: I was just getting a bit defensive there. So, you know,
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  Speaker 2: and I think when we're thinking about, should I say
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: this or should I share this story? And, oh, I
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: don't want to say that. People might judge me. Those
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: are the best stories. You know, the more, I think
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  Speaker 2: the more undefended I am, the more I'm truly myself.
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: What is it I'm actually defending as well? What is
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: it you're defending? That's a great question sometimes to ask yourself.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: And you can really track that down to the where,
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: keep going one click deeper, one click deeper. It often
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: just goes back to childhood or old stories.
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: When I first started research for my doctorate, which is
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: loosely around social intelligence and self-awareness. I was trying to
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: figure out when did they first start researching this? And
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: I'm sure it's earlier as well, but Socrates said 2,500
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: years ago, to know thyself is the beginning of wisdom,
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  Speaker 1: which I'm sure you know. But it's like trying to
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: figure out who I am genuinely apart from what I've
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: been told and who I've been told I am and
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: trying to figure out my own identity because for me,
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: I grew up as a fat kid who became a
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: fit kid, fat kid, isolated, neglected, dejected, rejected, all that shit.
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: And then I got in really good shape. Then all
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: of a sudden accepted, connected, valued, seen. So all of
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: a sudden I was a body. Oh, like, and my
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: self-worth and my self-esteem and my identity was tied into
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: this kid that was fucking jacked and he could, you know,
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: I was strong and fit and I lifted weights and
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: I was lean and, and for a long time, more
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: than I would like to admit, but I told you
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: I set up gyms and my first job out of
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: school was in a gym. So I essentially was a
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: body with no identity because my body was my identity.
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: I got my entire sense of self-worth through what people
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: thought of how I looked. And that's embarrassing, but well,
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: a large proportion of it. And trying to figure out
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: Who am I beyond my brand or my body or
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: my pretty or handsome face or my academic achievements or
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: my bank balance or my status? Trying to figure out
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: who you are beyond what you're not, especially, I love
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: the second part of your title, the radical act of
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: being yourself. How do we move closer towards that awareness?
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: How do we figure out who the fuck we are?
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that Socrates quote sums up, doesn't it?
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: You know, it's that an old saying as well, to
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: thyself be true. It's probably like those two sort of phrases,
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: those truest things in our lives, aren't they? And one
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: thing I want to say as well as Craig, as
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: you were like, I can still hear there's a bit
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: of shame and judgment about that. I mean, what else,
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: you know, what else can we do sometimes in life?
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: We need these identities. It's really hard being us. It's overwhelming.
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: We don't know any different. We're not taught any alternative ways.
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: That's the best thing we've got sometimes is to have
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: an identity. And for a while, they work. They keep
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: us safe. They help us. They can provide safety and
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: a good living for ourselves and those around us. So
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: I would have more compassion to that. Good on you.
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: You really worked hard to try and make a better
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: life for yourself. And we don't know then what we're doing, really.
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: We need these identities. And after a while, if we're
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: lucky enough, we do enough inner work, we realize that
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: actually We don't quite need such a strong identity. And
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: then when I moved to Australia, I didn't realize how
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: much of an identity I had around being the number
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: one guy. I was the number one guy in the UK.
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: I was on a show of two and a half
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: million listeners. I won over 25 awards. And I just
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: hadn't realized until I gave it all away. And then
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: suddenly I was here, unknown, uninvited, and a foreigner. And
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: I was desperate to get that identity back. I was like, oh, no, actually,
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: can I have some of it back? And it was,
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: I don't know, you said you want to walk away
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: from it. You walk away. And it was like, oh.
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: But what it gave me was this, I learned more
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: really about authenticity and connection that way. And to your
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: question about how do we move closer to the truth
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: of who we are. For me, it's like, those are
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: really big questions now. So my daughters are 22 and 19.
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: They're being overwhelmed by this question of like, what's my purpose?
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: How am I going to know my purpose? I tell you,
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: when I was 19 and 22, my purpose was to
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: go down the pub and try and meet a girlfriend.
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: That was my purpose, right? Try and get earned money
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: to go and see bands, buy clothes. That was my purpose, okay?
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: I think it's overwhelming for everyone now, constantly streaming meaning, purpose.
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: For me, I think it's more helpful to follow the energy.
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: What lights you up? What excites you? You know, when
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: I thought about Australia, it just, I couldn't explain it
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: to people. They thought it was, you know, me and
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: my wife were mid-40s. They thought you're too old to
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: have a gap year. And, you know, so people are like,
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: are you having a midlife crisis? You know, now I
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: think it's a midlife correction. And so, but I followed
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: the energy. There was like this, I need to move
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: to Australia. I couldn't explain. We didn't know anyone here.
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: There was no rational explanation. But in terms of following
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: the energy, And often I think a lot of the
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: answers about who we are underneath who we were told
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: we should be and how we should speak is actually
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: the clues are often there in childhood. Before all these layers,
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: all these scripts are put on. When I was a kid.
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: I loved words. I love storytelling. I was obsessed with
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: storytelling and being funny. I love making mom and dad
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: laugh when I was at family get togethers. I want
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: to make my grandparents laugh. I just saw, I grew
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: up in a working class background, so there wasn't a
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: lot of money, but what I did see was something
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: that was freely available, which was storytelling and joke-telling. And
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: in my family, on my dad's side, all Irish, incredible,
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: you know, part of a big tradition of storytellers. But,
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: you know, if I'm telling a story to my dad,
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: you know, or his side of the family, if you're
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: taking your time or stumbling or it's waffling on, my
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: dad would be on you. You know, it was a
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: tough crowd. And so I learned very on how to
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: tell stories because otherwise dad would just go, it's boring.
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: Where's this going, son? You know, and so I learned
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: a lot about, you know, so when I'm working with
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: people and I don't know who I am, first thing
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: is like, tell me about childhood. You know, most people
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: go and tell you about the tough times and like, hey,
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: we get the tough times. Tell me about the good
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: times then. What did you like to do as a kid?
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: There are often seeds there, right? It might not be
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: the exact thing, but there's some foundational seeding in us
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: at quite a young age of actually later on, you know,
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: when you look back and you go, oh, wow, there
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: was something there. As a kid, I used to read
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: as a teenager, I was obsessed with spirituality. There was
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: no one in my family like that. People used to
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: laugh at me. I was just very interested in like,
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: you know, the spirit world and spirituality and energy. And
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: I learned about Tai Chi and acupuncture. I was just
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: a teenage kid in a working class background. My mom
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: was a nurse. My dad worked in a car factory
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: when cars were made not by robots, by people banging
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: bits of metal. And so where did that all come from?
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: I would read books about leadership when I was 15, okay?
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: I was 15-year-old kid at school. And my mates used
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: to laugh at me. But again, I would just go
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: to the library and like, why is this book demanding
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: that I take it? I'd read about how to give presentations, right?
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: You know, make notes. But I was just like, I
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: don't know. Now I look back and I'm like, wow,
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: those early seeds were there. And so I think often
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: the answers are in childhood. But for me, it's like,
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: It's following the energy, you know. And you know a
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: lot of people say, you know, what would you do
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: if you couldn't fail? I prefer the reframe of that,
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: of what would you do if you could fail? Because actually,
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: it was more likely that I was going to fail
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: coming the other side of the world and starting again
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: in radio here. Breakfast Radio in Australia is the most
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: competitive in the world as well. Shows get fired within
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: a couple of months of bad ratings. That easily could
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: have been me. But I still was determined to give
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: it a go. And like, I just... I'm just following
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: the energy. He says, come here. I've got no idea
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: if it's going to work. People kept saying, how are
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: you going to make it work? And I was like,
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't have. I lied to the
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: people hiring me. I said I had a three-year plan
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: and a strategy. And I didn't. They just needed to
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: know that I had that. I didn't. How could you?
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: you know, I'm speaking to crazy Australians on the radio
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: and you're English and people are like, who the hell
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: are you? No scan retune. Um, so yeah, I think
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: the most important thing in our life is what you
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: said at the beginning of it. It's getting closer to
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: the truth of who we really are. And that's a
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: big brain question. It's not something you answer up here.
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: It's something you answer in here. And that is, I
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: think our life, our lives are always talking to us,
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: but we just don't slow down enough to really hear
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: what it's saying. Sometimes our life is calling to us
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: when we're in trouble. In my early 40s, I started
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: to have very, very severe panic attacks, Craig. And at
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: the time, I kept saying to people, they came out
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: of nowhere. Now I look back, no, they didn't. They
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: started about three or four years before that idiot. So
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: you decided that the best thing, they were like smoke
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: alarms then. And so I was like, oh, I'll just
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: take the battery out. I'll work harder. I'll do more projects.
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: I'll drink more wine. I'll work out harder. And I'll
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: just try and just keep moving. I used to think
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: it was like if I was a moving target, anxiety
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: wouldn't find me. Then the smoke alarms became full-blown fires.
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: And then everything is, it was the only way my
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: body would really get me to slow down and listen
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: was to threaten the thing I loved, which was live broadcasting, radio.
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: And I did almost, for a while, I couldn't get
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: on the radio and I thought I was going to
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: have to quit, which would have broken my heart. But
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: also learning how to be with myself and understand what
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: the panic attacks really were changed my whole life.
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: When did you get okay with vulnerability and was there
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: something that opened the door on that? Yeah.
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: Um, and I think it's something I'm still bouncing around with,
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: to be honest, you know, I say this in the book,
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: I'm not writing this stuff as a master. I'm not
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: Tony Robbins. Um, what I think I'm very good at
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: is being honest and authentic. And, um, I think what
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: I really, you know, people talk about being vulnerable and
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: they think it's writing a social media post. No, it's
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: that that's performing it. It's when it actually comes out
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: your mouth. That's what took me a long time to realize.
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: It's one thing you put in a book, Craig, when
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: you say out loud, that's when, um, I think that's
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: when it gets real. And if you think about anything
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: in life, a dream, a vision for a company, telling someone,
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: you know, that you love them, you know, saying a
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: text message, saying it out loud. And so I got
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: over these panic attacks. I got out for the first
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: time in my life. And then I never told another
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: soul about it. Mom, dad, sister, best mates never spoke
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: about it. It was just something between me and my wife.
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: That was it. And then I wanted to write the
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: true story of why I moved to Australia because people
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: are like, when I moved here and within 15 months,
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: I managed to get my show to number one and
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: people want to know that, Oh God, tell us a
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: story about this midlife thing and all that. And so
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: I thought, do you really want to tell the truth?
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: Are you really going to be vulnerable? Because the truth
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: is it starts with the panic attacks. Um, you know,
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: because actually through getting help, I'd realized how lost I
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: was in my life and I stopped making my life
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: an adventure, Craig. And, My life was calling me. And
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: often those callings to deny them is more dangerous than
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: actually doing the thing that is calling you. We think
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: that that's the risky thing. It isn't. It's riskiest staying put.
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: That's the life half lived. And it will break you
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: apart living a life half lived. I was living a
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: life half lived and it was breaking me apart. And
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: so the calling was to more adventure. And so I thought,
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: I should tell the real story. It begins with the
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: panic attacks. And so I thought I'd just put it
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: at the beginning of the book, two or three chapters.
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: We'll move on all into the success, superhero, getting the
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: show to number one, the other side of the world.
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: And of course, the book comes out. No one wants
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: to talk about, how did you get to number one,
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: the other side of the world? No one cares. Tell
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: me about the panic attacks. I would have panic attacks
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: before doing interviews because they can ask me about the
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: panic attacks. And so it was then when I really
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: realized what being vulnerable is. It's actually, at the beginning,
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: it's going to feel uncomfortable. But the other side of that,
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: oh my God, it changed my life. I started to
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: talk about the panic attacks. I still get emails to
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: this day from men and women, especially men, thanking me
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: for talking about panic attacks. Now, Craig, I'm not a professor.
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: I don't speak about, but this is what's going on
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: at a physiological level. And here's my 10 plan for
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: optimization to slay your panic dragon. It's not about that.
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: I normalize it. I talk about it really honestly. Anxiety,
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: panic attacks. I still have little episodes now. They're little episodes.
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: I'm better. I now have got better tools and techniques
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: and a kinder way, kinder way of treating myself in
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: those moments. But just to let you know about what
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: I mean, why it changed my life and what it
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: does to people. Um, I did an interview about four
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: or five years ago, um, on the imperfects podcasts. And
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: it's the first time I'd really spoken publicly about the
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: panic attacks. Um, And I felt ashamed. I was almost
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: going to ask them to edit some of it out.
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: I'd gone too far and had this kind of vulnerability hangover.
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: But I thought, don't do that. You're actually dishonoring your truth.
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: You wouldn't tell your daughters to do that. Sit in it.
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: And I did. And I got this. I was fearing judgment.
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: I was feeling shame. It didn't get any of that.
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: All I got was acceptance, healing. Healing en masse. Hundreds
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: of people emailing me. Oh, my God. Didn't know about
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: the panic attacks. I've had panic attacks that really helped.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: And then two years ago, paramedics arrived one day to
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: try and save my mother-in-law. He's having a massive heart attack.
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: They couldn't save her life. But one of these paramedics,
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: a man called Rob, who's now a good friend of mine,
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: saw him a couple days ago for dinner. At the
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: end of when he's packing up, he's putting all his
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: bits away in the defib cart. He says, I really
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: hope to meet you one day. I know you are.
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: I actually just want to say thank you. And I
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: was like, well, what do you mean? He goes, I
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: heard you talk about your panic attacks on a podcast
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: once and it saved my life. I went, what do
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: you mean? He goes, I was having them. He's been
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: a paramedic for 40 years, proper PTSD in what he's seen.
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: And he said, I was really scared by them. I
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: was in a really dark place. And suddenly you were
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: talking about them. You just normalized it. I'd always hope
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: one day that I'd bump into you to say thank you.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: I just, as soon as I arrived, I didn't realize
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: it was going to be today. I can't leave without
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: saying thank you. I know it's really unprofessional. And so
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: I really called the book Unscripted because Rob unscripted. I
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: didn't away from taking off the successful radio DJ and
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: talked about the panic attacks. I didn't know what the
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: gift is when we really get undefended. And telling my
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: story really helped him. And in, yeah, worst day of
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: my life, he helped me in some way. way as well.
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: He gave me a new level of connection and acceptance
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: toward myself. So that's what I really learned. The vulnerability
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: is truth, is courage, and it's actually uncomfortable to begin with. Otherwise,
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: if it wasn't, we'd be doing it all day long.
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: You know, I think, mate, thank you for sharing. I
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: love all of that. I'm going to teach you a
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: new word today. So the word is metaperception, and that
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: was six years of my life studying this thing. And basically,
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: it is your ability to understand how other people, be
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: it an audience of two and a half million or
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: one paramedic, how people perceive and process and experience you.
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: And Like we rather than really try and understand what
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: is the Craig or the Christian experience, we worry about
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: whether or not people like us, right?
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: But that when you open that and we'd be surprised
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: because most of us have a negative concept of what
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: it's like being around us and, of course, I'm a
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: dickhead and, of course, they– and we're so worried about– letting,
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: for want of a better term, the real version of
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: us step foot outside of the cabin into the wilderness
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: that is humanity. Yeah. That, as we were talking about,
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: we have this persona. But the irony is, because I
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: did a similar thing in that I was quite, I
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: had a persona too. I was very guarded about and
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: particular about and specific about how wide I would open
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: the door because if they saw past the Craig show,
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: and saw Craig in the fucking corner, I'm done. You know,
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: I'm a public speaker. I've written books, all that shit.
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: I'm definitely not you, but I've got a little bit
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: of a profile, and that's how I make dough is
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: I sell tickets and put bums on seats and do stuff, right?
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: But for me, I did one episode, and I can't remember–
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: It was a long time ago. We've been doing this
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: for nine years and I never listened back, but I
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: listened back and I fucking hated it because I thought
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: I was being somewhat fraudulent, right? And then I went,
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: I'm just, if I lose half my audience, whatever. Then
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: I just started to talk about, you know, not every
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: episode and all the time, but I just went, okay,
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: so here's all the shit I'm bad at. Here's all
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: the things I'm scared of. These are all the things
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: that I've like, but when I opened that vulnerability door,
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: the irony was the audience grew, the connection grew, the
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: trust grew, the respect grew because they feel like, you know,
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: in your case, you're not a celebrity, you're a bloke
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: who's on the radio that we like. And you think
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: about the reality of if you've got a great team
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: around you and everything is from a production point of view,
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: beautiful and well-planned, but they think you're a dick, you've
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: got no radio show, right? If they don't connect with you,
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: like you, trust you, respect you, irrespective of all the
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: other bits, they're not coming back. And I think it's that,
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: you know, for people who have figured it out and
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: still works in progress like you and me, That vulnerability
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: and that openness and going, hey, I'm still a work
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: in progress and I fuck stuff up all the time.
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: I operate in ego and fear and my own bullshit
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: comes to the surface. And I quite often catch myself
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: doing something to impress somebody that I think is at
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: a higher status than me. I'll say something which has
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: got to, it's true, but there's a bit of mayo
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: on it.
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: I'm like, what am I doing?
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: Like the thing is that you're not perfect. You're far
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: from it. Same here. You're just a guy who thinks
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: deeply about yourself and others and the world and humanity,
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: and you're just unpacking that as you evolve and grow
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: and go. And I think that's the appeal. It's not like, hey, everyone,
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: eyes to me, I've figured this shit out. Get out
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: a pen and paper. No. You know, when I talk,
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: even as an expert, which I'm not really, but an
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: expert in exercise science or psychology or whatever, I don't
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: say this is the unequivocal truth. I might say something
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: like this research tells us that, but I don't like
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: the way the studies were run. But here's my thoughts, insights,
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: stories and experiences. And another thing that you do beautifully,
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: consciously or not, because you're funny and And because you're
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: a storyteller and it's not like manufactured, scripted or orchestrated,
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: it's just you doing you, right?
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: Well, people connect with stories emotionally. They connect with humour emotionally,
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: but they don't connect with data or information emotionally. So
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: that combination of intelligence plus passion, and I'm not pissing
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: in your pocket, it's like my impression of you as
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: building in the storytelling and the funny stuff. It's a
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: nice combination for someone to like, I like listening to you.
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: I don't like listening to everyone I talk to. I
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: appreciate the honesty. And I love what you just said.
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: There were so many moments where I felt these pings
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: come in like, oh, yeah, yeah, I hadn't thought of
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: it like that before. You also, you just said something
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: so powerful at the beginning. I will take it with me.
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: You talk about storytelling. Storytelling doesn't mean a five-minute story.
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: Storytelling can just be in the description. You talked about
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: stepping outside, you know, talking about outside a comfort zone,
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: I guess, really, of our defences. You talk about stepping
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: foot out of that cabin, out into the wilderness. That
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: image is what vulnerability and what love is, really, because
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: staying inside that, the safety of the cabin, isn't a
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: way to live a fully loving life. Loving yourself, loving
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: this short adventure we really get in life. beautiful storytelling
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: in that. Then if you realize that that's a story,
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: it tells me a story of what life is really about.
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: We all have these little cabins, several, you know, and
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: the invitation always from life is to just crack the
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: door open a bit more. You know, we don't have
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: to smash down the door and just be open to everybody.
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: You can be taken advantage of. But Ken, sometimes we
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: just open it a bit more. So you did that beautifully.
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: There's something I really think that is really important for
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: me is, I think I'm very good about just being
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: more and more honest about my messiness and our messiness.
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: Because in this day and age where there's more and
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: more AI slop, we don't know what's real and what's
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: genuinely human. The only way we're really going to know
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: what's human, and that's why it is. I think it
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: is a radical act now to be yourself and not
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: be a bloody algorithm or let AI script your interactions,
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: what you're saying and thinking. and believing is to double
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: down on what's us, what's human. That's messy. You know,
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: that's deeply flawed. That, that, I want more of that.
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: I don't need more fake influencers. People talk about AI slop.
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: Do you know what I think is far worse? Human slop.
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: It's everywhere. All these bullshitters and fake gurus online who
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: are going to heal you and they've done ayahuasca and
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: all this stuff. I've got no time for it. I
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: think we're fed up with it now, these optimizers. Sounds
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: bloody exhausting. Get up at midnight to have a sauna,
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: go and get a nice plunge, have a gratitude journal
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: for an hour, work out for 10 hours. You sound joyless.
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: You know, the subtitle of the book is Your Magic
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: is in the Mess. I really believe that. You sharing
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: your story about who you were as a kid, how
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: you felt about yourself. When we tell our unique story,
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: everybody always finds themselves in your story.
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: You talk about you've been a fat kid and why,
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: of course you built this identity up to go and
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: be this jacked up dude. I'm like, yeah, I get it.
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: I absolutely get it. I know a couple of other
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: people have done that. One of them was a Hollywood actor.
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: So I get that. I really get it. It's not
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: my story, but I find myself in yours because you're
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: really being deeply honest about your deep flaws and those
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: flaws are I see flaws now as like, you know,
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: you look at a piece of wood and it's deeply grained,
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: isn't it? And it's the markings that make it. That's us.
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: The flaws are the beautiful contours of who we are,
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: the rings of our life, our pain, our losses. You
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: think about the best comedy shows you love, drama shows
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: and movies, books, all those stories, they are stories of transformation.
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: They are people overcoming tough times. Why do we still
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: watch all those TV shows? The biggest movie in the
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: world this year, if not the decade, is The Odyssey.
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: Forget about all the Marvel crap movies and franchise movies.
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: The Odyssey, I went to see it last week. Three-hour movie.
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: I love the fact it's taken me six weeks to
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: try and find a slot to even sit down and
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: watch a three-hour movie about a 3,000-year-old poem. In this
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: modern age of distraction, I think actually reminds us We
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: are starved of real stories and human connection. If you're
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: telling me that's the biggest movie of the year, I
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: think there's hope for us. I really do. I think
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: it's a great, it says a lot about where There's
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: hope for us because actually, if you can sit down
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: for three hours and watch this mysterious, mystical movie, you know,
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: an ancient Greek poem, some of it doesn't make sense.
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: It shows me that there's a real longing for stuff
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: that is about the real heart of being us. And
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: that's about a flawed man. Odysseus is a really flawed
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: man reckoning with his identity as a war hero and
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: looking at the true cosmology of the identity to others
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: and himself. And his quest to come home isn't just
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: a physical one. It's the quest we're all on individually,
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: come home to belong to ourselves, not just to other people.
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: And I think collectively, we're at our odyssey at the moment.
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: We are at danger of being lost a bit, of
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: forgetting who we really are.
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: What was among the things, maybe the top one or two,
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: but among the things that you needed to, for want
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: of a better word, unlearn? Like what did you need
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: to unlearn? Like something that was a belief or a,
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: I don't know, a perception that you had that was
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: perhaps stopping you? Was it psychological or emotional blockage?
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: I think it's one that's been a pattern and a
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: blockage at home as a dad. and as a husband,
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: and it was on the radio as well. And that
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: was that I misunderstood vulnerability as being weak. And anytime
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: I felt vulnerable, I would. Those nuclear defense systems that
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: we've installed. And so for me, that would, I have
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: a gift for language that can also be destructive at times.
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: It can be saying things that I say as a
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: joke to try and cut people down or keep them
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: at distance. And I've had to learn that is a
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: coping mechanism. It's been our fear. It came out of childhood.
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: I was bullied quite a bit as a young kid.
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: And so you developed, you know, I love just making
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: people laugh. I really do. But there's also I realized then, oh,
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: I can control. I can create safety here with the
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: bullies by becoming this funny persona. But for me, I
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: took for too long. Vulnerability meant weak and judgment and ridicule.
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: And so I shut that sensitive part of me down.
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: I kind of like concreted it over. I built a
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: funny act on it. And then I think the panic
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: attacks were a way of that sensitive part of me
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: saying this, you can't really board up the basement of
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: your soul because actually all your joy, your sensitivity is
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: your gift. A couple of years ago, I was going
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: around saying Father's Day, it's a bit shit, isn't it?
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: It's not Mother's Day for three months. There's adverts everywhere.
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: Book your restaurant now. Get mum this. There's a thousand
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: different cards. Father's Day, you go to the supermarket, it's
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: like three cards. There's an old footy ball, a tennis,
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: a wooden tennis racket, a cricket bat. It's like Father's
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: Day is just so underwhelming. And I said, no one
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: really takes their dad out for lunch like they do
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: on Mother's Day. You're out for lunch. It's full of
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: mums being treated. Dad should get that too. So I
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: hired a pub. And I invited a hundred dads in
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: our family to come and all have a collective lunch together.
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: It was one of the most loveliest things. My family
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: were there. It was brilliant. At the end, I said, look,
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: you don't have to, but if you want to come
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: up and, uh, kids, if you want to just say,
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: what do you think your dad's superpower is? And, uh,
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: I just meant it's a bit of fun to be honest.
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: These kids were getting up and, uh, They started to
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: sort of make a few roast dad and then they
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: would say what they thought his superpower was. Seeing these
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: dads break down, sobbing in tears was amazing. Watching it
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: where actually these defenses they built up, they're struggling, trapped
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: behind it. What keeps the world out keeps you tucked
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: away as well. You can't let that love in. And
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: just seeing these kids, but anyway, at the end of it,
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: I said, well, thanks for doing that. And then my
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: daughter said, we want to say something. And I never
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: like to use my kids as like, this is what
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: I do. You're not props in that. But they went, no,
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: we want to say something about you. And I thought
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: they just want to roast me. I was like, oh,
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: this would be good fun. Anyway, they get up there, Craig,
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: and they go, do you know what our dad's superpower is?
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: He is Mr. Emotional Man. You know, dad cries at
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: TV shows and movies more than mum does, more than
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: we do. Sometimes there'll be a TV advert and we
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: will say without looking at dad, dad's crying right now.
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: And I go, yeah, I am. And I love that
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: now they see me really owning that sensitivity. It means
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: that we have a more of a loving, honest relationship.
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: If I hadn't, I think, made a better friend of
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: my sensitivity, I'm not as close a dad to them.
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: You know, they find it funny, you know, that I
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: will be. But I think when I'm crying now, because
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: sometimes I'm like, well, they once saw me cry for
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: five minutes during the Paddington moment.
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: And they're going, they didn't understand. I explained it a
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: couple of years later. I went, look, it's taken me
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: a long time to understand this guy's about the Paddington thing.
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: They're like, we don't need to get into a dad.
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: Don't make it weird. But no, no, I need to
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: explain something to you. I think a lot of that
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: was crying for the times I couldn't cry when I
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: was younger. And they were like, Oh, Oh. And now
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: they've seen what young boys are like. They see what
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: other dads are like, who are not quite free sometimes
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: to express themselves as I am. Um, They get it.
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: They really understood. Yeah, I bet. You know, they've seen
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: what my dad's like and what the Irish side of
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: a family can be like and how it shows up
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: in men who actually their emotions and their heart are
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: iced over, are thawed away from them. The contents of
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: their heart almost frightens them what's in there. And that's actually,
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: that's heartbreaking. And so I said to them, I think, look,
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: those big tears sometimes like at Paddington, I don't think
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: it's about Paddington. I think it's about when I was
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: a kid, that all got pushed down. And what the
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: lovely thing now is being more, you know, more open,
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: less defended, actually means I can really fully feel things more.
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: You know, we talk about feeling better. It took me
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: ages to talk about learnings. I think it took me
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: until last couple of years, feeling better is about feeling
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: your feelings better. That's it. Sometimes that's all it is,
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: just being allowed. You let nerve, anxiety, shame, You let
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: fully feel it. It only takes about a minute or two.
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: And then you're like, oh, okay. It's the resistance to
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: it that creates all this fear. It's the fear of
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: our emotions, really. So I think they've really been the
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: big things for me was misunderstanding vulnerability as weakness. A
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: weak is bad for a man. You can't be weak.
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: You'll be taking advantage of it. You'll be picked on.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: You're bullied, like you were as a kid. So it
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: took me a real long time, really long time to
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: understand that actually, My sensitivity, my vulnerability, that makes me
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: the comedian I am. It allows me to find and
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: tell better stories. I think the currency of great storytelling
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: is vulnerability. I never trust those bullshitters that tell you
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: a funny story. And it always ends with them, Greg,
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: having the upper hand. And then I said this and
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: everyone in the pub laughed. And I'm like, life doesn't
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: give you punchlines like that. You're more than likely, you
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: stumbled the end of that thing and everyone laughed at you,
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: not with you. That's a funny story, you know? So yeah,
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: those were the, those were the real big genuine game changers.
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: And look, I wish I could say that I'd learned
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: those lessons and, And they kind of like, you still
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: have to remind yourself, don't you, day in, day out.
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: You know, people talk about growth like it's a full stop.
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: It's always ongoing. The amount of times on the weekend
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: I was with my 19-year-old daughter at a footy game
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: and she was telling me something, I didn't even let
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: her finish. I went, well... It seems to me that
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: what you need to do is she went, dad, well done.
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: Well done. You're doing it again. Why listen when you
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: can just fix me when I don't need to be fixed?
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: I went, you know what? I've written a bloody book
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: on this stuff. And you're right. Give me a second chance.
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: Tell me again what's going on. And then we did.
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: And we had a far better conversation because she called
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: me out my own BS. I'm still reminded of those.
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: But those were the really big ones for me, Craig, personally.
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: It's a beautiful question as well to ask somebody.
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: What's it for you?
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: What I needed to unlearn?
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: I guess how I feel is not necessarily who I
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: am or how I am. So I've done, I would
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: say three or 4,000 corporate gigs. I could do 50
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: to a hundred a year.
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah.
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: And I have the, capacity to get up i'll be
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: at the side of you've done this i'll be at
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: the side of a room i'm standing against the wall
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: there's a bloke or a lady on stage introducing me
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: i've got my little bloody lapel mic on i've done
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: literally done a version of this thousands of times i
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: know my stuff and i simultaneously feel and know so
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: i feel i'm not good enough i'm inadequate i'm They'll
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: figure out I'm full of shit. I've just been very
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: lucky until now. So I can have the feeling of
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: lack of worthiness or competence or anything, pick it, intelligence, capacity.
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: I can feel like an imposter while knowing that I'm
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: not because I've got data and evidence. So the psychological is, well, Craig,
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: you've done this a lot. You're not terrible at it.
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: In fact, you've done three for this company and they
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: keep getting you back. So- that's evidence, right? But that
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: doesn't stop the feeling. So for me, trying to maintain,
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: I guess, the behavior and the focus in the middle
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: of the feeling of inadequacy or lack of worth or
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: whatever those things. And, you know, even when you get
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: reasonably educated, which I am, I say reasonably, still doesn't,
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: it really doesn't, like at might bump your confidence for
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: 10 minutes in some way yeah but that you know
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: it's like I talk to people like one of the
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: biggest oversold factors in the self-help personal development human behavior
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: is One of the biggest bullshit areas which might surprise
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: you and some is the whole motivation sales pitch.
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: And I say to people, I don't care what you
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: do when you're motivated because everyone's a fucking superstar when
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: they're in the zone. I care what you do when
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: you can't be fucked, when you don't feel like it,
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: when it's not comfortable, when it's not easy, when it's
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: not painless, when no one's fucking watching, when there's no
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: cheer squad, there's no round of applause, there's no immediate
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: instant gratification or reward whatsoever. Like, what can you do
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: when most people would give up? Can you step up
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: when most people would give up? And that learning to,
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: because I always needed attention. I always needed approval, acceptance, belonging.
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: And if I was going to do something amazing, there
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: better be 14 people giving me a round of applause, right?
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: Because that was just me. And then recognising my own
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: bullshit in the middle of all of this and recognising
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: I would teach things that I didn't do.
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: They were true things. They were good strategies or ideas conceptually.
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: And I did it a fair bit, but I didn't
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: do it all the time. Like there were stages when
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: I was, like I was working at St. Kilda football club, uh,
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: as strength and conditioning coach and then driving to McDonald's
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: and eating shit on the way home.
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: Or buying fucking this much ice cream or whatever. So
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: I'm this authority of sorts giving out all of this wisdom, insight,
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: fucking the science, doing the dumbest shit ever behind closed doors.
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Sounds familiar. I get that.
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: Like forgiving myself a bit. and realizing, you know, that
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: how I feel doesn't need, is not necessarily a reflection
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: of my capacity or my IQ or my skill. And
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: that's just, I guess that's a self-doubt. That's an emotional thing.
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: But yeah, for me, it's been, you know, the self-loathing
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: has stopped, but the self-awareness has expanded.
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Isn't that beautiful? Yeah. Great sharing. I love that.
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: I could totally understand that. And those in those moments
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: at the side of a stage, you know, for me,
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: that can be like, people just presume, because I've been doing,
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: you know, morning radio, breakfast radio for 28 years. So,
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: you know, over half my life, two sides of the world. And, um,
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: people just think that you just sort of superhuman, you know,
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: at six o'clock, they don't realize, no, many mornings I'm tired.
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: I'm overwhelmed. And actually like you, that's my side of
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: the stage. I'm like, today's the day I'm going to
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: get found out.
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: I was been really lucky. And, People just being kind.
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: But today is the day. Sometimes it's during the show.
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: You know, you hear that critical voice, that inner shitty heckler,
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: I call it. You know, you're shit this morning. You know,
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: you always have been. Oh, God. Oh, you're still here.
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: I thought I'd left you in England.
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: No, no, no.
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: I'm still here. Still here. I have it sometimes during
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: a show. That side of the stage can be while I'm,
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: you know, talking to a couple hundred thousand people like today.
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: And so, yeah, it still shows up. But you can,
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: I guess, like what you're saying is, you know, because
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: often when I increase and I've just accidentally fallen in
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: the last couple of years into coaching people, you know, leaders,
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: and sometimes they just want help with their presentation skills.
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: Sometimes their messaging. Sometimes it's how they can find out
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: more who they are under a title to help them
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: really show up, not just as a title, but as
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: a more, more the qualities of a leader, not the
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: title somebody gives you and leave from status and power. Yeah, right.
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: And I spend a lot of time, people just think,
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: people presume you need a lot of confidence to do
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: what I do or to get on stage. You don't actually,
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: you need momentum. You just need to start. The enemy
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: of speaking is thinking about speaking. And so in the morning,
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: my job actually is confidence will arrive a bit later.
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: First of all, it's energy. And I think with speaking,
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: we emphasize the words part of it. To me, that's
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: like the tip of the iceberg. Our energy announces who
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: we really are more than our words do. People feel
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: the energy of who you are. They know these days,
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: you've got to believe that guy. I don't like that guy.
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: There's something about him. It's the energy. Energy is more
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: important than your words. So for me, it's an energy
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: thing in the morning. Beginning with energy, I add in
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: the emotions, then the words follow. It's a sequence like that.
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: Many mornings, I don't feel confident to do the radio show.
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: I really don't. I'm just tired. I might have had
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: an argument when my daughter's going through a tough time.
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: Last year, my mom might have a pacemaker fit. It's
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: literally two minutes before I'm going on air. I'm chatting
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: to my mom in the UK. Mom, I'll call you
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: back in a couple of hours' time. I've got to
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: do the radio show. And I'm on, you know, and
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: I think at home, that's not the last chat I
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: have with my mum, you know, and I've got to go.
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: And so I can help separate confidence from content. You don't,
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: the confidence part, mindset is far more important than actually
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: just the commitment to courage, take the first step. Then motivation,
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: I find that motivation and confidence arrives later. And you're like, oh,
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: here you are. Great. Okay, can you guys help for
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: a bit now? And then they carry on. But if
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: I was waiting for motivation and confidence every morning at
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: 5.59 a.m., I wouldn't have had this career I've had.
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: It's not there. Not at 6 a.m. I'm sorry. It's
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: just not. I'm not a Buddhist. I'm a human being.
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: I'm tired, knackered. And so, yeah, that conversation. I always
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: think there's two conversations in life. There's the one out
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: loud and then there's the far more damaging one we're
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: having with ourselves at various times of the day. If
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: you spoke how you do to yourself, those conversations at
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: the side of our stage, if we spoke that to
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: a friend, we'd have no mates.
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: And you'd be considered a bully.
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: Yes, rightly so. I remember working with this great coach
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: and he was saying, hey, these critical thoughts, Christian, what
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: I want you to do is every time you think
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: one of them, just say ouch out loud. I was like, what?
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: He goes, yeah, just say, ouch. And so I did it.
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: I thought I've got nothing to lose. And it really
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: helped quite a lot. I actually just encourage people to
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: try it. Play with it. See if it works for you.
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: You actually, throughout the day, sometimes I'm out walking the dog.
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: And you're just thinking, you know, you really do need
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: to lose a bit of weight. Ouch. You suddenly just
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: calling it out. You really realize how many of them
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: you have throughout the day. Ouch. You know, you're going
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: to really have a second portion of that. Ouch. You know,
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: the ratings need to be higher. Ouch. You know, so
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: very quickly you can rewire. That's a very nice way
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: to speak to yourself. Probably maybe a kinder way or
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: just hear that, but don't have to fully listen to
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: it or believe it more importantly. Yes.
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: I don't know, a quick one before we wind up,
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: if you've ever had a version of this. I did
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: a gig not long ago. It was corporate. It was
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: quite big. There was a bloke sitting about 15 feet
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: from me, like third row auditorium, and he fucking hated me.
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: I knew that he hated me. Like he'd just have
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: that I hate you face going on and didn't laugh
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: at anything. Just had this, like other people would smile
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: or nod. And anyway, so I was telling myself, This
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: is how focused I wasn't. So I ignored the $ 499
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: and I just focused on the one.
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: Of course.
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: And this guy's hijacking. I'm allowing it to happen. He's
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: hijacking my brain and my emotional system. All I want
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: is this. I was going to swear badly. All I
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: want is this fucker to love me, right, because I'm
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: so fucking needy. Anyway. So I kind of get myself
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: back on track. I'm doing my thing and I end
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: up doing not a terrible job. At the end of it,
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: people come up, you know, a couple of questions or whatever,
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: the odd selfie or this or that, which is nice.
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: And he's standing in line. I'm like, oh, fuck. Why
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: is he standing in line? And he gets up and
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: he's vision impaired. And he's like, that was amazing. He goes,
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: where else can I listen to you? What else do
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: you do? And so I'm looking at the guy who
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: couldn't see me and all of the story that I
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: was telling myself about why he looked the way he
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: looked at me was 100% bullshit. The actual story was
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: he was listening deeply, but he didn't look the way
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: that I fucking expected him to look. So I derailed
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: half of my presentation because of my own bullshit. Yeah.
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: I've done that. Yeah. It's such a beautiful, powerful story,
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: you know, in terms of what it's like when we
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: do that. Because for other people listening, that might be
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: a social get-together, couple of mates or family get-togethers. Oh,
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: I'm being really boring right now. And I learned early
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: on with stand-up where I would not have a good
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: gig because focusing on someone not laughing at me and
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: thinking the other couple of hundred people were idiots. that
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: you know the truth and and then other comedians have
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: got me going you you're you're gonna you're gonna you're
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: making it really hard work for yourself and the audience
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: and you know i learned i learned recently that whoever
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: has your anger has your power and also we put
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: far too much overemphasis on the audience. We've got no idea.
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: You've got no idea. So forget trying to work out
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: what's going on in them. You don't know what day
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: they've had. They might have had a horrendous phone call
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: before your, you know, you can't. And I learned early
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: on in stand-up as well, I learned that really, to
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: play to the people who were getting the show. Now
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: that might be, you think only a third, but you'll
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: have a better show that way. And yeah, the amount
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: of times I've seen people and it might be 800,
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: a thousand people there. And, um, I'm thinking that guy,
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: that couple hate me. And then, you know, wrestling, you
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: just like, just to keep ignoring them, you know, you
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: guys like me. Okay. And then afterwards, you're like, they
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: come up to you, bring you a drink. Oh, one
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: of the funniest stand-up shows we ever, you know, oh,
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: I wasn't sure. Yeah, yeah. And you think, God, what
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: a waste of two hours of my life. So, yeah,
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: I've been at that story. The person who's visually impaired.
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: What a power. That feels like one of those old fables, Craig,
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: where it's like there's a beautiful truism in that. And
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: you're right. We put the lens too much on them.
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: It's too much on them. It's more the focus on
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: how do you want to feel up there? You enjoying it?
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: Get connected to what you're talking about. Is this something
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: you're excited about? Are you looking forward to tell the story?
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: Have you got something which you think actually might serve
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: the room in some way? All right, be in that.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: Stop trying to think. And also, we're having so many
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: random thoughts in our head, aren't we? You know, during
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: an hour of our lives, 10 minutes of our lives.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: And also just realize that most people aren't thinking about you.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: They actually don't give a shit. They barely know themselves,
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: let alone putting some calories into working out what your
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: deal is. So yeah, that version of projection, I guess
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: you'd call it. Yeah, I mean, the second radio show
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 2: I did in Australia, you know, this person emailed me saying,
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: no one invited you. And I was about half an
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: hour into it. I know, imagine that.
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: I thought it was- Dear Brian, thanks for your feedback.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. I was like, that is the most perfectly
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: worded heckle. It's genius. It's not a wasted word. No
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: one invited you. In that moment, I was about to
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: get ready to speak and I was just like, I
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: was 10 again. Even my voice now is, I was
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: 10 again. No one invited you. You know when you
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: went to a mate's birthday party and when you were
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: 10 and some kid goes up to you, you're only
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: here because my mum said we had to invite you.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: And you're like, I was like this, but I'm on
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 2: a radio show. And I just had to pretend that
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 2: people liked me. Because there was no evidence when I
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 2: started that they did. And so, yeah, I've got my
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: voice in that. No one invited you. And actually in life,
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: I remember thinking at the time, well, you're right. No,
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: no one did. And sometimes in life, you're going to
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: have to crown yourself. you're going to have to invite
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: yourself because I actually think it's really great for us
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: to feel like we don't belong, to be in rooms
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: where we don't feel quite smart enough. I think it's
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 2: really good for us because you'll grow through it. You
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: will have to do some deep inner work. And then
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 2: you will actually, it's really good for us to keep
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 2: finding what rooms. I'm in one right now with this
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: book coming out. It's a really different book for me.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 2: I went in, when it came out, I went into
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: a bookshop and I secretly had a look around And
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: I was with my 22-year-old daughter, who went, I haven't
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: got it. Oh, no, they must think it's rubbish. They
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: haven't got it. I said, I'm going to go and
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: wait around the corner. Can you ask them where it is?
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: She goes, Dad, dude. I said, I can't. It's embarrassing.
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: I can't have that rejection. They go, we're not stocking
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: that thing. So I go and hide around the corner.
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 2: I'm watching her. And she comes and goes, no, no, Dad,
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: they have. They said it's doing really well. It's in
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: the personal transformation section. I was like, It's there? She goes, yeah, yeah.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: You've written a book about transformation and self-development. So I'm like,
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: and then, you know, you've got all those big heavyweights there,
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 2: you know, Meg Robbins and all that. And I think,
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 2: I don't belong there. But actually, maybe there's something different
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: than the way I tell it that does have, it's
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 2: my story. So that being, and even in a different
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 2: part of the bookshop, being in different rooms where you
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 2: feel like you don't belong, you feel like an imposter.
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: Now I can reframe that. And actually, when I'm imposter,
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: I think this is great. You're right where you need
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: to be. You're actually breaking new ground in your life.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: That is living a full-hearted life. Fuck it. Yeah, keep
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: breaking new ground. Sharp rooms you feel like you don't
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: belong in. Good for you. Keep going. You know, take
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: half a step into that room. You don't need to
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 2: march in and go, I'm here. It might be a
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: bit awkward and mumbly and trembly to begin with. Don't matter.
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 2: You just walk into that room. back yourself, trust yourself,
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: invite yourself, crown yourself. You're right. No one's going to
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: crown you. You're not going to get invited. It doesn't
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: work like that. I wish it did, but it doesn't.
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, perfect. I say a very similar thing. I say,
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 1: if you're the smartest in the room, fuck off, go
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: to another room, go where you're the dumbest, go where
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: you're the least skilled, the least capable, the least popular,
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 1: go there because your learning and your growth will be exponential.
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: If you're the smartest- It's like my training partner that
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: I train with every day of my life is an
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: ex-pro bodybuilder, amazing genetics, overwhelmingly stronger than me, all the stuff.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: So I want to train with somebody who's fucking way
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: better than me because otherwise I'm going to coast, right?
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: Brilliant.
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 1: So hang out with people who drag you on.
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 2: Hey, bro.
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: What? I could talk to you for a long time.
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I just want to say one last thing. That's
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 2: so great about your training partner, right, Craig? Years ago,
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: I used to do, I've always been fascinated by martial
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 2: arts since I was a kid. And years ago, I
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 2: think it's about 15 years ago, I was really into MMA.
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 2: And I used to train a lot of Brazilian jiu-jitsu.
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 2: And my coach said, look, you're pretty good. Do you
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: want to get a lot better very quickly? I was like, yeah.
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 2: He goes, come and train with the black belts. I'm
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 2: not doing that. You know, I'll be tapping out the
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: whole time. He went, no, no, no. You want to
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: get really good very quickly. Train with the black belts.
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: I was like, yeah, I did. And within two or
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: three weeks, when I was then sparring with people that
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 2: were a couple of years ahead of me and almost
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: black belts, I was submitting them because I really put
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 2: myself in at the deep end. And you'll learn a
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 2: hell of a lot. It's a great thing in life
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: to be humbled. At first, I was. Every three seconds,
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: that hurts. I give up. Then bit by bit by bit,
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: you get overwhelmed and you just learn to just survive
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: a bit longer. Steady, steady, slow down. I remember chatting
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: with Black Belts afterwards about it all about six months later.
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: A lot of them said, do you know what? We
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 2: used to get really nervous sparring with you. Why? Because
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 2: When your white belt's like you are wild, you actually
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: don't know what you're going to do. And we had
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: more to lose than you did as a white belt.
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 2: They said, you know what? And one of them said
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 2: he was a five-time world champion. He said the worst
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: thing for a black belt to have is a black
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: belt ego. You're terrified of losing. He goes, I always
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 2: try and think like a white belt. And he goes,
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 2: you should always think like a white belt. And so
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: now before every radio show, I go, well, fuck the
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 2: 28 years. I'm a white belt. What am I going
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 2: to learn today? What am I here to learn? I
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: think it's a great way. You with your training partner,
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 2: I get that. That's like me being just smashed by
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 2: these monsters. And I'm just a radio DJ. You know,
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 2: these black belts just crushing me. But then I got
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 2: within three or four weeks, I was so much better
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 2: because I put my ego aside and I came out
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 2: much stronger. I enjoyed it. I was way more relaxed.
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 2: So I get it why you have a training partner
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: who's a beast, you know, and you're kind of like, oh, God,
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 2: this is going to be a bit uncomfortable today. But
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 2: it's good for us to be challenged. That's where we
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 2: find ourselves is always at those edges, isn't it?
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: Oh, I love it. That's so good. Do you know,
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: what's that definition of jujitsu? I think it's jujitsu noun,
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 1: the art of folding pajamas with people still in them.
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 2: Well, I used to get folded a lot. Yeah, they
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 2: were folding me up a lot. Yeah, that's exactly what
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 2: it was.
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: It's not for the faint hearted. The book is called... Unscript,
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: The Radical Act of Being Yourself. It's just been published.
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: It's out in good and shit bookstores. Is it on
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: Audible yet?
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I do all my audiobooks. I did the audiobook.
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: I think it's a privilege to write a book. And
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 2: it's an even better privilege to be asked to read
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 2: it to somebody. Because, you know, look, primarily most people,
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 2: the way they engage me is through my radio show.
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: You don't need to know who I am or listen
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 2: to the radio show to enjoy the book. But, yeah,
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 2: the audio book, I loved doing it. It will feel
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 2: like it's more– I wrote the book like a conversation.
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 2: I wanted it to feel like a conversation between me
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 2: and whoever's reading it. The audio book, you know, people
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 2: are telling me this, really does feel like it's a
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 2: deeper transmission. There's still something very magical to me. I
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 2: would say this, I'm a radio guy, but I still
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 2: believe in the power of the human voice. I think
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 2: it's so, I mean, look what you do. And yes,
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 2: it's filmed, but we're in a overly visually stimulated world
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 2: right now. 4K cameras, TVs, IMAX. There's still something really
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 2: magical about the human voice to heal us, connect us,
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 2: to bring us together. Look at in the last 10 years,
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 2: The biggest growth in entertainment has been this, podcasting. What
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 2: a brilliant thing. I listen to more podcasts than radio
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 2: because we starve, like I said, for real conversations. honesty, vulnerability.
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 2: No one trying to impress each other. We're just being
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 2: really honest about our flaws, our struggles. And isn't that
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 2: the best thing in the world right now? We want
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 2: people to show up more real. Stop pretending to have
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: it all sorted out. I don't believe you. And you're
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 2: intimidating me. So all these people telling us we need
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 2: to 10x this, you know, productivity hacks. It's exhausting. I
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 2: just want to have a nice life. I haven't got
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 2: time to do all your hacks. And also, there are
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 2: no hacks. You're a hack. There are no shortcuts in life.
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 2: You know, you're going to have to have real courage.
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 2: People say they want this greater life, yet they don't
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 2: want to have courage. Well, you don't deserve it. You're
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 2: going to have to make courage your best friend. Courage
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 2: doesn't mean the absence of fear. It means actually full-heartedly
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 2: trembling sometimes on hands and knees, crawling forward until you
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 2: feel like you can quite start to walk through certain
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 2: dark parts of your life. That's courage.
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: Oh, so good. So good. So Christian Liam O'Connell is
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 1: his full name. You can hear him every morning in
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 1: Melbourne and lots of other places. On Gold 104.3, Gold
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 1: 104.3 FM in Melb's. And what else do I have
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 1: to say? What's the subtitle of the book you told me?
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 2: Look, officially it's unscripted, The Radical Act of Being Yourself.
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 2: But really, you know, on the back of the book,
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 2: I think it's really important I put, you know, the
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 2: magic is in your mess. I've made a living out
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 2: of that. I'm a better dad because of that. I
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 2: met my wife that way through telling a messy story
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 2: once in a pub. And so that right now in
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 2: an age of optimization and AI gloss and what's human
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 2: and what not, the mess. Be messy. Talk about your messiness.
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 2: Just see what happens when you speak from that place
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 2: to people. Just watch what happens. Try it. Be a
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 2: bit 10, 20% more honest about your messiness and just
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 2: watch what happens to other people when you do that.
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 1: You're a good man. We'll say goodbye off air, bro,
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: but thank you so much for doing this. I would
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 1: love to chat to you again.
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 2: I hope this isn't the last time we chat personally
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 2: or here. I feel like I've met a new mate.
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 2: I've deeply loved our chat. Thank you, brother.
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 1: Say goodbye off air, but for now, thanks so much.
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 2: Thank you, Craig.