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The Massage Therapist · System Speak: Complex Trauma and Dissociation

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Welcome to System Speak, a podcast about complex trauma and dissociation. It's our story, our learning, and the ideas we've been working with as they've unfolded over time. Earlier episodes give context for where we are now, and current episodes may engage more advanced material, harder content, or reference earlier conversations. A few things to remember as you listen. The podcast is education, reflection, and storytelling.
• 0:41
  It's not therapy, and listening doesn't create a relationship. Although I am a therapist, I am not in that role here, and nothing that I share is individualized clinical advice. Every system, every internal world, all of your own stories are all different and you take up your own shape. What we share about ours won't translate directly to yours. It isn't meant to.
• 1:06
  We're all different, and all of our stories matter. As always, take care of yourself during and after listening. We are so glad you're here. For my own privacy, which is new for me to even acknowledge as a need, we're not actually sharing your name today, which was so kind of you, but you also said you're busy enough anyway that you do not want more referrals. Yes.
• 1:46
  Oh my goodness. Okay. So just so that listeners can get acquainted to the sound of your voice, can you tell us just a little bit about yourself and why why you're even okay coming on the podcast?
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: Sure. I've been a massage therapist for like thirteen years and I see a lot of chronic pain patients and patients with like really intense injuries. So I'm really interested in massage and how it relates to trauma and the long term effects. My father was adopted and his mom who adopted him had multiple diagnoses, I guess.
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: Wow. Okay.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: So, she was schizophrenic and, had DID, when I was growing up. They didn't really call it that. They just kinda said she was schizophrenic, but, you know, later in life we figured out that's what it was. And so I didn't really see a lot of that until after she had passed. We received her journals and things like that.
• 3:10
  And so I've always been kind of interested in that just because of that familial connection and just kind of like understanding that side of trauma. And so I haven't had very many patients in that realm but I definitely like to work with patients who have more complex things going on I guess aside from just like, you know, regular aches and pains. I think massage is really powerful in that aspect and helping bring us back into our body. And I've also done a lot of work with horses, and so just kind of learning, like, body cues and responses as far as that without even speech or, like because a lot of people don't even know how to vocalize some of that stuff that's going on, and so I find massage to be really helpful in that. I actually thought that I would be becoming an animal massage therapist.
• 4:06
  That's the whole reason I went to school, but I just decided that I loved treating people. And so I've stuck with that.
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. I am so grateful for you, and I might already be crying. I never, never in my life if you had given me everything in the world would I had ever thought I would be able to get myself in to see a massage therapist, much less like my life depend on it every week. Never would I have thought.
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very interesting how that can happen because I'm the same, like I did not want massage. I was like, that doesn't even sound good. And once I went to school, I started to realize how powerful it was and just, you know, the reactions from patients when they finally get into that parasympathetic response is just it's magical.
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. I I don't know if I can even find words enough to talk to you. This may be already the most I've ever spoken to you because I cannot speak hardly at all when I'm there. And it was so funny. I took my kids to see you, and they just, because I talk about your reference that today's the day I go see you, I wanted them, it's helpful for their attachment own healing to even know where I'm at.
• 5:32
  So I just wanted them to see your office and be acquainted that I was with a safe person. And I brought them and they just talked the whole time. It was so funny to me. So I've learned since then that some people do talk the whole time, but I am so far out of the room. This may be the most we've ever had a conversation.
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I have a handful that do because, you know, I've been seeing a lot of my patients for like, I don't know, eight years or more. And so we've just really developed a good relationship. But even sometimes they won't talk. It's really and a lot of people have come to me because I don't talk unless you talk to me. So that's a big thing that I try and, you know, that's somebody's hour.
• 6:20
  I want them to have what they want from it and not listen to me blab if it's not what they want.
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: Well, and you're not wrong about how much is communicated without even words. I have gone numerous times and just wept the whole time, just cried. I have gone and had things come up that I didn't even know were in there that then I took back to therapy. There were times that I could feel like I'm trying, I'm already crying. There were times that, like, I life was so hard.
• 7:04
  I didn't know how I would survive, like, the day. And I don't mean that as any kind of threat or intent to harm myself. I just mean that's how hard it felt. And I would go and see you and it was like just getting centered back with myself and taking care of myself and refocusing, not just getting back in my body, but moving from my limbic back to my frontal cortex where, oh, I can center on myself instead of centering on the danger out in the world. And it has been so healing for me.
• 7:43
  There have been times where I wake up from nightmares or night terrors, and I can picture your office and my body will settle back down even though I'm not even there. And now I can go back to sleep for the first time in my entire life after night terrors or nightmares. I can go back to sleep because I just imagine that I'm at your office or I can see like that. I can I have gone to see you long enough that I can pull that feeling up even when I'm not with you, and it is profound?
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: Now you're gonna make me cry.
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: We'll come back to our left brain for just a minute. Otherwise, I don't think I'll be able to keep talking. The most question. Okay. The most question.
• 8:36
  That's not even English. When I aired the episode about my first visit with you, which I had to get so brave to tell you it was coming and tell you about the podcast before I did that, It just felt important for consent, even though you weren't on it. But when that episode aired, the number one question we got on emails that I'm just gonna refer back to you is how does someone tell that they are getting someone who is safe like you? And I know we don't all get to have you, but someone safe like you as opposed to like a creepy place that's in the news. How does someone who's never been to massage at all know the difference and what to look for?
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that can be kind of difficult in my opinion because it can really depend on where you live too, because it's not like a national certification or license. Each state is has different regulations. And unfortunately, there are several ways to get around those regulations that are not well, like, managed or pleased, I guess, would be the right term. My thing when I'm looking for a therapist is number one, they should have their license number posted somewhere, like, on their really, it's supposed to be on all their advertising in Washington state. So that's the main thing I look for.
• 9:54
  Is it on their website or their business cards? The second thing I look for is do they have, like, normal business hours, I guess. You know? Not to generalize, but there are lot of places who are, like, open till nine or 10PM and have blacked out windows, and, like, that's not a place I would recommend, of course. Like and they don't have any, like, professional advertising.
• 10:19
  Another big thing is majority of my clients are word-of-mouth, and so I've, like, never paid for advertising for myself. My clients are so kind and do it for me, and so I think speaking to your community and your friends to see if they have a recommendation is probably a very good way to do that. There is therapists who are trauma informed and have taken extra training in that kind of thing. I have taken a little bit. It's starting to become more popular in our continuing education, so I'm hoping that will become more available to people.
• 10:55
  And then a lot of people at least have said to me is, like, my bio and my picture helps them feel safe. So I think that's kind of a harder one because anybody could put anything up there. I think a good thing to do is, like, how you came in and met me first and saw my room.
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: I would think most therapists would be okay doing that.
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: That made all the difference for me. It wasn't just that friends mentioned you. My doctor also mentioned you. And then you did. You let me come in and look around first, which I it's so funny to think back on that day because I was almost too scared to even get myself in the room.
• 11:35
  And now I have to, like, clock myself to make sure I don't take my clothes off before I get in the room. Just because I'm making it weird. Just my body feels so comfortable that I'm like, let's go.
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: That's amazing, honestly. I mean, I don't want people to take their clothes off before I leave the room, but just the fact that you feel that comfortable, that is such a vulnerable position. And I know that, like, I know people are in my room on my table, like, fully vulnerable. I mean, you can't really see. It's dark.
• 12:09
  I'm touching you. Like, I get it. So everything I do is intentional in making my patients feel comfortable, and, like, you know, my job consent is extremely important. There are laws regarding written, verbal, all of it. Like, thankfully, our state especially is pretty strict on a lot of those rules, and I try and go above and beyond because, ultimately, the patients are trusting me and my hands.
• 12:36
  And so that's, like, the most important thing for me.
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: I love the email. I still get the email every week that is like, before you come, you can remember that you can take your clothes off or not, or you can take off however many. And it was interesting because even like having options of I could or I couldn't. And I remember talking about that with my therapist before I ever went to see you the first time. And ultimately the reason I was able to go ahead and try that the first time was because I felt like sensory wise, it would be harder for me if I were doing it over my clothes than not.
• 13:18
  And so it was just funny, but really having the options and being able to talk through that. And I think that is one of the things that helped me feel safe too, is just written out where here are all the options that you have, the whole range in between this and this, here are your choices.
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I I don't think I wrote that. I think we collaborated on that, me and my coworkers, but that was important for me because I have heard times where therapists were like, no. You have to take everything off or, like, I can't do it and yada yada. And I'm just like, I don't I'm adaptable. Like, you know, we might eventually get to that point.
• 13:57
  We might not, but you can still provide care, and there are plenty of techniques you can do clothed. So I never want somebody to feel like they have to do that.
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: It was It was really interesting. Even when my kids went, one of them only wanted you to massage their hands. And so just for their little time, that's what they got was a little hand massage. But for them, was really, really powerful. And they talked about it in therapy for weeks and weeks and weeks.
• 14:25
  And we just with folks with any kind of trauma, touch is so, like you said, so, so vulnerable, but also so, so healing.
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: Yes. I think especially for kids too, like learning safe touch and, like, safe adults even, especially if, you know, they have trauma in their past. Like, I don't see a lot of kids, but when I do, I'm even more careful with them because, you know, that could affect them through their whole life, really. And I think it's really important for them to see. There is safe touch and healing touch, and it can be beneficial.
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: When I tell my kids I'm going to see you, they make the same sound they make when, I tell them what I'm making for dinner. They're like, oh. They're just excited. And so to see that they have more safe adults in their life, that we added something good was so it was just, I mean, just miraculous. I don't I don't know enough words to say how powerful an experience it has been for us.
• 15:35
  Can you explain at all? And I don't I don't know that I even know enough words to ask, but what can you say about different kinds of massage? Because you've mentioned, like, about pain, you've mentioned about injury. I know you've also helped with my lymphatic stuff because of chemo that I've had in the past that's caused some problems. And, like, what are the words for that?
• 16:05
  What are some of the things that you can do?
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So there is a lot of different modalities, and every year we are required to take some continuing education hours to keep our license. And so I've tried to do a little bit of a variety because for one, it's fun for me. And two, you have so many different patients that having a lot of tools is really important. So standard we learn like Swedish, which is like your general relaxation massage.
• 16:33
  It's kind of the foundation of massage therapy. Deep tissue is also we learned that in school and a lot of people think that that is just deeper pressure, but it's actually just accessing the deeper layers of the tissue. Because, you know, your body is multilayered. You have some muscles that are more structural, deeper, so that's just more about accessing those. And then my specialties are lymphatic drainage.
• 16:59
  I learned the German techniques of the voter manual lymphatic drainage, and I use that a lot for, like, like, what you have going on, People who have had a a lot of the treatment is, like, post cancer, like, people who've had lymph nodes removed. I can help reroute the lymphatic flow, basically, or a lot of times the lymph nodes get kind of, like, bogged down or stagnant, so you can help move that fluid. A lot of massage is about moving fluid and improving circulation. And then I also you know, I do a lot of things, cupping, gua sha, which is like a scraping tool. That's pretty intense.
• 17:39
  I recently got certified in intraoral massage, which is working inside the mouth, which is wild in itself.
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: My daughter has had that because of her complex airway and she's had jaw distraction and cracked palate, and her tongue was sewed to her lip. So like all of these different things to clear out her airway, then as she's gotten bigger, and so her airway by default grows with her I mean, it doesn't grow because it's all scar tissue, but as her body's gotten bigger and, like, her tongue lip adhesion has been released and her palate filled in and all this, but she missed all those infant years, toddler years of being able to move all of that. And so Mhmm. They have done a lot of working in her mouth with that to just get her to be able to move her tongue even.
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah. That is some, like, powerful powerful work. I received it when I was growing up too, and so that was one of my biggest things that I really wanted to get certified in that because that I mean, even, like, structurally, it can help, but also that can really help trauma if people can get to the point of allowing you to get in there. Because like you said, when your mouth and those reflexes are really important when you're an infant in in those formative years, and that can be very impactful later in life. So that work is, like, really important to me.
• 19:04
  I love doing it.
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: You talked about trauma. I just had the context of medical trauma, but also just in lived experience with, like, sexual trauma or other kinds of trauma, can that help also?
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: Oh, definitely. I I think it could. I haven't like worked with that specifically, at least not that I know of. I probably have because I've seen so many different people and, you know, not everybody divulges everything. So but there especially with that and, like, some like, when you're working with people with trauma, there will be emotional releases.
• 19:38
  Like, you've talked about you cry during sessions. That happens pretty regularly, and they do teach about that in school. It's happened it happened to me in school, and that's one of the ways I knew, like, wow. This is really powerful because they released something that I had forgotten about, and it was, like, a childhood injury, and I just started crying. And I then I started laughing because I was like, why am I crying right now?
• 19:59
  And I didn't realize my body was, like, just processing that through massage. And, you know, later through therapy, I realized what was going on, but it's very interesting. So even if people don't tell me what's going on, I can sense that there are things held in their body. I can feel it. And so it's very powerful to release that.
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: You're a little magical with that. And sometimes I'm like, how does she even know? I have had times where, especially at the beginning, where I was like sobbing so hard, you had to pass me tissues just so I could breathe. Now usually when I cry, like, it's just flowing. Tears are just coming, and I'm okay.
• 20:41
  But, there have been times like where like, you always ask what's going on or what is are you like, I don't I don't I don't know what you're asking because I'm still so anxious to be there, but also I'm safe to be there. But I know you always have a conversation with me before. So if there's something new to tell you or if there's something going on but there are times where I don't know, but then you find it. I'm like, what was that? Or maybe I don't realize it until you started, but then you find it anyway.
• 21:16
  It is wild that you can do that.
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah. That's one thing I hear a lot. I mean, you know, the body is really good at hiding things from us or, like, it's a brain protective mechanism, I suppose, that we're not gonna notice that, especially if it's not talking to us. It might or something else might be louder is what I always say. Usually Wow.
• 21:36
  The loudest thing is whatever is, like, painful, but probably 95% of the time, it's coming from somewhere else. And so a lot of it is that is that I'm looking for the root of the issue versus and it's not necessarily gonna be where you feel because our body is, you know, a working system. It all works together. And if this is thrown off, this is also thrown off. It's like a system of levers and pulleys.
• 22:02
  So you have to really, like, find the root of the problem really.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: It's fascinating. There are times that you're doing whatever and I don't I mean, I don't have your job. I don't know how to do, like, whatever you do, But where you're doing your thing and it's the thing that you do, there's other times it's like you're working on something specific, and my body is like, hello. I've been trying to tell you this for a long time. There are other times you do something, and it literally feels like an ocean wave coming up on the beach and then going back.
• 22:39
  Like, how do you put waves in there? But I just like, I can feel waves inside
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: me. That's my favorite feeling, actually. That's a good way to describe it. I've never really, like, thought about how to describe that. I think that's, like, the release, really.
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: Well and because I'm I I I so quickly flight into my left brain. Right? And so I'm like, okay. I know cognitively, I understand you did not just turn my body into fluid and that you can just move pieces of me around. And also that's what it feels like.
• 23:14
  So when you talk about that pulley system, I think that's how I experience it of, I don't I don't know how you did what you did. I know not all my blood or lymph or whatever, or maybe it did. I don't know. Like, just all moved this way or all moved that way. But it feels like the way the foamy waves right at the beach come up.
• 23:36
  That's what it feels like to me.
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, in a way, I am making things that way. Your fascia, which is like your connective tissue surrounding your muscle, is this isotropic. So, like, it will be in a more solid state, and then with massage and heat and stretching, it moves into its more liquid state. So Weird.
• 23:57
  Scientifically, we kind of are doing that.
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: Weird. Wow. Wow. Okay. Okay.
• 24:04
  So I'm I'm thinking about all the different things you just shared. For the lymphatic pieces or, what did you say, modality, I've needed that a lot because of just what happens with my body. There are times I can feel you helping my body. Like, there was one day that I went on too long of a walk the day before, and you found that. There are times I am sitting in my chair too long because I do telehealth all day, and you can find those muscles.
• 24:39
  There are times you find something from memory time, and I feel very parts y. And also it is wild to me that I can feel that parts y inside myself and also feel that they, we, I, me, all of me, however you want to say it, feel safe in your office, which is why I think it works even for going back to sleep after bad dreams. And there are times that there are things I don't I don't even know, like, what was that? And it's like, that is going to need some more work. What is the difference between some of those things and things I have I have not had?
• 25:23
  Like, you talked about cupping and you talked about scraping. There has been no cupping or scraping happening up in So tell me about that.
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: Those are a bit more intense. And so I don't know how impactful that would be. I don't recommend it to everybody. I I really try and structure my massage based on what I feel the person needs. If I keep working with them and I think, you know, this might be worth a try, I'll definitely suggest it.
• 25:53
  But cupping is I actually like it the best because I'm sore from doing manual labor. And, basically, there I prefer silicone cups, so you pop these silicone cups on specific points in the body. I learned the Chinese medicine version, so it's like they're called, like, meridian points. You have them all through the body, and there's these lines. If you've ever had acupuncture, they'll be like, this spot is your spleen one, or this spot is your stomach seven, or I don't know all the points.
• 26:29
  But so a lot of them go on those points. And then basically, it's like reverse pressure, and it will allow blood flow to come to the area. And I will massage the tissue, put the cups on, and then move on to somewhere else. And as those cups are sitting, the patient is, you know, deep breathing and relaxing as I keep massaging and so it helps that tissue to kind of soften up. And it's really effective for chronic pain or injury, I find.
• 27:02
  Not everybody likes it, so that's why I don't always recommend it to everybody because it can be kind of intense. And the scraping too. I mean, I'm literally taking a why the tool I use is made of buffalo horn because I took the Chinese medicine class that I don't know everything surrounding that, but they use buffalo horn, like, traditionally because I can't remember exactly how she explained it. It has, like, extra healing properties or it's there's some connection point there for in Chinese medicine. But I really like the texture of it, and it's not cold.
• 27:33
  Like, some scrapers are made of stainless steel or jade or some other rock. And so in those instances, I'm literally, like, scraping the muscles. It is kind of painful. So Oh my goodness. Some people like it.
• 27:50
  Some people really love the pain, and they come to me specifically to, like, feel the pain, basically. I don't go above a certain threshold of pain because it's counterproductive. If I have a client who I'm doing something pretty deep and they're, like their tissue is, like, trying to run away from me basically or I feel them squirming, I will back off even if they tell me it's okay. Because if you're backing away from me and, like, tensing up, that is counterproductive to my work, and I don't want that. There's a common misconception with massage of, like and a lot of things, really, like no pain, no gain, and that's just not true.
• 28:28
  So as much as I like doing these fun, like, deep, intense therapies, I'm very cautious of the level that I'm at because, ultimately, I don't want to harm anybody. And so some people I have to reeducate, like, a little pain is good. It can be therapeutic, but too much is gonna have the opposite effect.
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: I love that you mentioned this because I think, just speaking for myself, obviously not everybody, I think one of the things I struggle with is pushing my body too hard in ways that are too related to deprivation, like not having enough of something, either because my work days are too long or I'm tired but have to keep going because I'm also a parent or those kinds of things. And I think also I I have some religious trauma history where the more you suffered, the more of an offering it was kind of. And I'm trying to be careful with my words is for my own safety, but the gentleness, but also presence that you have given. And there are times that you work something harder than other times, but it has never been in a way that was too much or painful, in a way that was more than what I needed. And so the fact that you understand that and even could put it into words, think is part of the safety for me, that you are listening to my body in ways I don't know how yet.
• 30:09
  I'm still learning.
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: Yes. And it's really I think it's really hard to learn, especially in the way our society is. It's very, you know, push yourself harder. No pain. No gain.
• 30:21
  Oh, you have pain? Shut it down with ibuprofen or whatever. Like, we're not really taught to listen to our body. And pain especially is our body's biggest communication to us. So getting people out of that mindset of like, oh, I just need like, make this quiet, and instead, I need to listen to this and figure out where it's coming from or what I'm doing in my life that might be exacerbating this or what do I need to change to allow my body to function properly or at its, like, optimal functionality, I guess.
• 30:57
  I'm not that's hard to put into words.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: It makes sense, though, because the things I have the big things that I have changed since starting with you that you never like, you have never ever shamed me in any way. I have never felt ashamed of my body. I've never felt ashamed of my functioning. And also, the things that I have changed is that I need more hydration, which is always true for me because Sjogren's, always the hydration. And then, also, I had to get a different mattress, and that helped with some of my pain.
• 31:32
  I didn't have a bed when I moved here a year ago. Someone gave me a bed, but the mattress was older. And because parenting and all the things, it was just at the bottom of the list. And so I just sort of didn't replace the mattress for a year, and it was really, really painful. And getting a different baseline of how my body can feel when it is tended to and when it is not helped me go, Oh, I just need a different mattress.
• 32:01
  And so I was able to get another, a different mattress from a friend and that helped so much. And then also realizing that a job I had was working me so hard with such long hours, I was gonna stroke out in my chair. Like, that's what it felt. You never said that. But, like, learning about my body and learning about massage and going to experience that and realizing I am in danger from not moving.
• 32:29
  And so not only changing my work hours, but also going back to movement and going for walks and things and just letting my body talk to me for maybe the first time in my life.
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that is, like, one of the biggest things you can take away from massages, curing your body really and movement. You know, a lot of people have sedentary jobs, especially in today's world, and even outside of our jobs, you know, we're at computers a lot or sitting on our cell phone or this or that. And I find that my patients who have a sedentary job are in far more pain than those who work a manual labor job where they're moving around a lot more. So movement is incredibly important.
• 33:17
  I mean, our body thrives off of movement. Even if we have an injury going, like, if you don't move it in a safe way, something else is likely to happen. For example, you hurt your shoulder, you don't move your shoulder. You may end up with frozen shoulder on top of it, which is, like, really hard to get rid of and very painful. So movement is very powerful for the body and also, I think, in hearing our body because when you move, things are louder in the way they talk in the way your body talks you, I think.
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: Wow. In paying attention to how our body is talking to us, the second most frequent question that we got that I'm deferring to you is about what is the difference between massage, the way you do massage, and what people are talking about when they say bodywork or something that's not chiropractic but is like, intense and painful and they're supposed to feel better after? What is what are they talking about that's different
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: than what you're talking about? I think it really depends what they're seeing because there are, like, specific massage modalities that are painful and do produce a result. That one is hard because I think that's really, like if you're talking specifically massage, it's very, like, specific to the therapist because a lot of what we learn in school I honestly don't think we go to school long enough, and what we learn is, like, very basic massage. We may learn, like, one extra technique. Like, I learned a Chinese medicine technique in school called, it's very intense and painful.
• 34:55
  And I bear I don't really use it. I've used it on my husband, like, as a joke a couple times because it's funny to mess with him. And, like, it is effective work. I'm not, like, negating the power of that work. I just think it's a very specific set of clients who would enjoy it and benefit from it.
• 35:13
  And I just personally like to have a gentler approach because ultimately, massage, the goal of it is to get you out of fight or flight and get you into rest and digest. And so if you can get somebody into that rest and digest mode, their tissue is to you because really it's neurological. We're trying to get people to relax so that their brain will release the soft tissue. It's not so much like me putting pressure is going to force your muscle to come, like, to release. I'm trying to get your brain to be like, hey.
• 35:48
  Something is putting pressure on this. I need to relax myself. And so it's as much a mental game as it is physical, probably more mental than anything. And so some of these other modalities, which I don't know a ton about, I mean, there are specific massage modalities, like I said, or cupping. Acupuncture can be painful, but I've I've not had a ton of experience with that because I'm a little bit nervous of the needles.
• 36:15
  I've had it once, but it's and a lot of my clients love it. Some are like, take it or leave it. So I'm trying to think of other I mean, there's, like, other, like, exercise based things that could definitely like, I I recommend yoga a lot. And the more some of the more intense yoga could be painful potentially if because you're strengthening. But, yeah, I ultimately think if you're looking at massage, it's really about the therapist and what's in their tools and what their philosophy is on massage.
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: So what should someone generally, if the primary thing they're starting focus on is complex trauma or trauma from childhood, what kinds of things should they be asking?
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: I you could ask if somebody has specific training in massage and complex trauma because that is a class that is offered for sure. I would probably start with, like, just a basic Swedish massage. Most massages are gonna be customized, so kinda like where you come in, the massage therapist will talk to you, see what you're looking for, and then kind of discuss with you what their plan is or what they offer in terms of that. And you can do a consultation over the phone too. And a lot of the times, they'll have what they do listed in their, like, online bios, especially if they have extra trainings and things.
• 37:43
  They'll usually wanna list for that because I think that's pretty important.
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: Also important to find a massage therapist where after your massage therapist helps you get towards rest and digest that you can go get miso soup next door.
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: Yes. That is very healing.
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: I feel like that's part of the routine.
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: I think so too. I think that's important even what's around the business because, like, if you're going to massage to relax and, like, it's a struggle to find parking and, like or you have to walk up two flights of stairs. And I realized that not, you know, space is expensive, and it's not always accessible to find the perfect amazing space, but I think it's important. One of the reasons we moved our office this last time, which I don't think you came to our previous office.
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: You've been at the same one the whole time since I found you.
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: So previously, I was in an office and next door was a restaurant, and on the other side was a cabinet builder, and there was, like, a teriyaki place too. And so there was barely any parking. There was loud noises all the time. It was just not conducive to my work, and I feel didn't feel like I could get as good of results as I do at this location. It's much quieter.
• 39:06
  There's optimal parking. It's just a much more I I think that's pretty important, somebody feeling like the space is accessible to and conducive to massage in general.
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: I think there's something that happens before massage, like what happens before therapy, where I schedule time so that I can be there and be focused and be early and be ready because I know it goes better if I do. And also like the world of trauma tries to stop me from even getting there. And then if I land there late or in flight or it gets so much harder to bring it down and you are so, so patient, but also it feels like therapy in that way where it's not exactly self sabotage, but it makes me aware that my baseline is so far off when it's that hard to stop. It's like I can't I literally can't get the brakes on in the day early enough to be able to get there relaxed and earlier. And, like, it's not that I do not explain it because it's not the schedule itself because I have the time blocked out, but it shows me how my baseline is still so far off because so much is happening that it's like the weight of trying to stop the day long enough to go to therapy or to go to massage therapy.
• 40:44
  And you've said you've said it it massage therapy is therapy. We've talked about that. And and I feel that as part of what not just my body, but, like, the world, the universe, the earth, whatever, is trying to show me that it's like when you have, your car loaded up and have to stop at a stop sign as opposed to when your car is empty and you stop at a stop sign. It feels like that.
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that's common for a lot of people, even especially parents, you know, because we're not just managing our own schedule. We're managing a bunch of other humans. And Right. It's hard to put put yourself out of that mode and be like, this is just time for me to take care of me when you're responsible for taking care of others all the time.
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: Okay. What do we need to talk about that we did not get to talk about today?
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure. I I think that as time goes on, this kind of thing will be more will be better for people who have trauma. I think the massage industry in general is recognizing how important it is and trying to train massage therapists in regards to that. And also, I'm happy I though I cannot take clients, I am happy to help facilitate finding somebody for people because I think it's really important. And unless you're in the industry, it can be really hard and scary to navigate sometimes because it's such a broad skill set within the massage realm.
• 42:23
  Like, there's so many different types of massage and people who do massage and reasons to do and receive massage, and so helping somebody navigate finding the right therapist is very important to me. So I'm always happy to help with that and potentially compile some resources towards that. That may be something I could offer in the future.
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much. What what would you say to someone who has never tried it before but heard that first episode where I sort of walked through the whole process or here's you today and how to find someone safe but they've never tried it yet, what would you say to them?
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: I would recommend trying it for anybody. I, however, know that as long as you're seeing a good and reputable therapist, which if, like I said, if you find a place with great reviews who has their license listed, you know they're an actual like, here in Washington, we're considered health care providers. It may not be like that for every state, but, I think word-of-mouth reviews and just reviews in general are important in that realm. If at any point during the session you don't feel comfortable or don't want to continue, you can say that, and you should say that. And we are trained to stop.
• 43:47
  So just know that for me especially and all therapists I know, if somebody said I need to stop, we would immediately stop. So I
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: have experienced that where two times that I can remember you were doing your thing and, like, my whole body almost jumped off the table. And I don't even know why. Like, I don't even have more information. I talked about it in therapy. I don't it it wasn't the same as, like, you know, that falling feeling when you fall asleep?
• 44:17
  Like, it wasn't even the same as that. It was something different. But you totally paused until, like, no. I'm good. We can keep going.
• 44:28
  And, like, I am just I just wanna second that that I I have experienced that with you. And I know we're not I'm not speaking for every massage person out there, but, I have I have witnessed that of you checking in or following up on something and also that not always even requiring words because, again, you're so attuned to my body even while I'm still learning. And so being able to see when it's okay to keep going or to pause.
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And that can take time too sometimes because, I mean, you know, the first time I see somebody, I don't really know anything about their body. So if you feel comfortable with therapists as you keep receiving work, in my opinion, it's only gonna get better because they're gonna get more in tune to you, and you're gonna get more comfortable with them and thus have better, like, ability to relax with them and receive the work.
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: So but saying no I mean, even, like, specific body parts, like, I have clients who don't let their feet touch. Okay. Totally fine. I make a note of that. Never touch their feet.
• 45:41
  So you can be, like, that specific. You can be, like, I only want my back worked on or I only want this. Like and a great therapist is going to be fine with that. They might say, Hey, I think you benefit from work here. If at any point you're comfortable, it might be worth a try.
• 45:57
  But just know that you can say no at any point.
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: You even had to work around my cochlear implant that, hey. I've got holes in the back of my head.
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah. There's a lot of things I I've had to work around. I mean, even in the lymphatic realm because I've done, like, a lot of post surgery work. So I've had to work around drains, and, you know, there's continuous glucose monitors or heart monitor. There's so many things that we have to adapt to that a good therapist will be totally happy to adapt to anything pretty much.
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: I like how that normalizes it too. It's not just boundaries around what feels safe enough emotionally, but also physically what is assessable or not or what accommodations are needed.
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah. That's yeah. That's really important too. And a good thing to check-in with them too because, like, for example, I have a hydraulic table, but not everybody does. They're pretty expensive and so not every therapist has one.
• 46:58
  And so if you have certain things you need for accessibility, it's important to communicate that with a therapist too because I think, you know, most places are should be like ADA and all that stuff, but that's not always the case. So I think it's good to check that too. But in my experience, I've had a lot of massage. Most therapists are very accommodating as long as they're professional. And most therapists seem to love what they do, so they'll they want you there and they want to help you in whatever way that looks like.
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: I am so grateful for you, and you were so brave to come talk to us today. Was there anything we left out that you wanted to cover?
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: I don't think so.
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much.
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Thank you for allowing me this opportunity. I I'm really passionate about massage for everybody, but especially people who have trauma. So I'm grateful to share some hopefully helpful information for people.
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening to us and for all of your support for the podcast, our books, and them being donated to survivors and the community. It means so much to us as we try to create something that's never been done before, not like this. Connection brings healing, and healing brings hope.