Latest / 6 Ps in AI Pods (AI6P) / 🗣️ AISW #134: Brendan K. Davis, France-based writer-director-producer

Transcript

🗣️ AISW #134: Brendan K. Davis, France-based writer-director-producer · 6 Ps in AI Pods (AI6P)

0:00
SPEAKER_01: Hi everyone.
0:00
SPEAKER_01: This is Karen Smiley.
0:02
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to 6P's in AI Pods.
0:07
SPEAKER_01: This post is part of our AI6P interview series on AI, software, and wetware.
0:13
SPEAKER_01: Our guests share their experiences with using AI and how they feel
0:17
SPEAKER_01: about AI using their data and content.
0:20
SPEAKER_02: I'm delighted to welcome Brynden Davis from France as my guest today on AI,
0:24
SPEAKER_02: software, and wetware.
0:25
SPEAKER_02: Brendan, thank you so much for joining me on this interview.
0:27
SPEAKER_02: Please tell us about yourself, who you are and what you do.
0:31
SPEAKER_00: Well, thanks for having me, Karen.
0:33
SPEAKER_00: I really appreciate it.
0:34
SPEAKER_00: The short version of me is I am an American film writer and director,
0:39
SPEAKER_00: as well as producer and former musician and still occasional musician,
0:45
SPEAKER_00: but we live in the suburbs of Paris,
0:48
SPEAKER_00: my wife and I, and my coming up on three years old daughter.
0:52
SPEAKER_00: I'm a hashtag old dad.
0:55
SPEAKER_02: Very cool.
0:56
SPEAKER_02: A lot of aspects to that background are,
0:58
SPEAKER_02: I think,
0:58
SPEAKER_02: quite interesting,
0:59
SPEAKER_02: the creative side and how AI plays into that and also with kids and
1:03
SPEAKER_02: the international aspects as well.
1:04
SPEAKER_02: Looking forward to hearing all of your stories today.
1:07
SPEAKER_02: So tell us a little bit about your level of experience with AI and machine learning
1:14
SPEAKER_02: and analytics,
1:15
SPEAKER_02: if you've used it professionally and personally,
1:17
SPEAKER_02: and if you've ever studied the technology.
1:20
SPEAKER_00: I am what I would consider an experienced user of ChatGPT and Claude at this point,
1:27
SPEAKER_00: but I don't use it for anything coding related.
1:30
SPEAKER_00: I use the tools really extensively for research and organization.
1:39
SPEAKER_00: I specifically have a lot of experience
1:43
SPEAKER_00: at this point originally pre-AI using Google Translate to turn French documents
1:49
SPEAKER_00: into something I could read.
1:50
SPEAKER_00: But then when I started using ChatGPT about two years ago,
1:54
SPEAKER_00: that was a game changer because being an immigrant here in France
1:59
SPEAKER_00: and I speak some French and I'm studying,
2:01
SPEAKER_00: but I'm far from fluent and especially I'm not fluent in bureaucratic ease.
2:06
SPEAKER_00: So using first ChatGPT and now also Claude is in the mix of this for me.
2:13
SPEAKER_00: It's been incredibly helpful it's actually really facilitated things for us me
2:20
SPEAKER_00: and my wife both that wouldn't have been nothing that wouldn't have been possible
2:25
SPEAKER_00: but they certainly wouldn't have been as straightforward everything
2:28
SPEAKER_00: from building packages we submit to get the lease on this house where I'm talking
2:34
SPEAKER_00: to you from to dealing with an insurance claim issue related to water damage
2:41
SPEAKER_00: in this place and following up with legal matters and everything under
2:47
SPEAKER_00: the sun that's so far outside my domain expertise,
2:51
SPEAKER_00: but being able to rely on those models to help accelerate the research.
2:56
SPEAKER_00: It's really my old Google searches on steroids and being able to figure out, okay, what do I do?
3:01
SPEAKER_00: I know the broad strokes of what I think I have to do,
3:03
SPEAKER_00: but the processes is different here in France versus the US versus China
3:09
SPEAKER_00: where I've also lived extensively so they've been really helpful to help me
3:14
SPEAKER_00: with organizing and managing our personal life as well
3:20
SPEAKER_00: as professionally strategically because I have a lot of different things going
3:25
SPEAKER_00: on I have projects that I've written for me to direct.
3:29
SPEAKER_00: I'm primarily a producer,
3:31
SPEAKER_00: so I have multiple projects as a producer that are in different stages.
3:34
SPEAKER_00: So tracking all of that used to be just a series of spreadsheets and note documents.
3:42
SPEAKER_00: I used Evernote for years since whenever they started 2010 or 2012.
3:46
SPEAKER_00: I've ditched their paid plan because I've superseded it now
3:49
SPEAKER_00: with my two paid accounts with GPT and Claude.
3:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I use both extensively and it's really made a positive difference in my life.
4:00
SPEAKER_02: That sounds great.
4:01
SPEAKER_02: So can you tell us a specific story about the time that you've used a tool
4:06
SPEAKER_02: that had AI or machine learning features?
4:07
SPEAKER_02: I'm interested in what went well and what didn't go so well.
4:12
SPEAKER_00: Well, there are a lot of them.
4:14
SPEAKER_00: One of them specifically is related to the water damage issue here.
4:19
SPEAKER_00: We rent this place, so this was an underground pipe that burst.
4:23
SPEAKER_00: It was clearly a landlord issue.
4:25
SPEAKER_00: There's no doubt about that.
4:26
SPEAKER_00: The landlord himself came over and looked at it right after it happened and said
4:30
SPEAKER_00: that in the room.
4:31
SPEAKER_00: But then the process to follow up with that is really detailed, really specific.
4:37
SPEAKER_00: And of course it's all in French here.
4:39
SPEAKER_00: I hadn't started using Claude when all this happened.
4:41
SPEAKER_00: This damage was discovered in December of last year.
4:44
SPEAKER_00: I started using Claude about six months ago now.
4:49
SPEAKER_00: Everything I had to do from the filing of reports to researching how I draft
4:54
SPEAKER_00: a certain letter that I have to send,
4:56
SPEAKER_00: like certain things have to be declared,
4:58
SPEAKER_00: you have to send this registered letter to the insurance company,
5:02
SPEAKER_00: you have to send this form to the landlord so that it's all in the record in
5:05
SPEAKER_00: a certain timeline, like a clock starts for action, etc.
5:11
SPEAKER_00: Being able to get my arms around what I had to do in the first place,
5:17
SPEAKER_00: ChatGPT was really, really helpful to educate me on things I really had no idea.
5:23
SPEAKER_00: And then as there were problems,
5:25
SPEAKER_00: which I'll avoid getting too specific,
5:26
SPEAKER_00: but as there were problems with action slash inaction slash pushback from
5:31
SPEAKER_00: the landlord on certain things,
5:33
SPEAKER_00: I was also able to learn a lot about various French laws and statutes
5:38
SPEAKER_00: and what I should do next and where I take a grievance.
5:41
SPEAKER_00: And I learned how to petition a tribunal and appear before a judge and make a case
5:48
SPEAKER_00: in French, et cetera, et cetera.
5:50
SPEAKER_00: So without those tools,
5:53
SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying I couldn't have done it,
5:55
SPEAKER_00: but it was hard enough even with those tools.
5:57
SPEAKER_00: So they've been extraordinarily helpful.
5:59
SPEAKER_00: And then as I've been using Claude as well, I use one to double check the other.
6:06
SPEAKER_00: And that relates to you asking what's a problem or something didn't go right.
6:10
SPEAKER_00: I've had many examples of the famous AI hallucinations,
6:15
SPEAKER_00: because as we know,
6:16
SPEAKER_00: when AI is wrong,
6:17
SPEAKER_00: it is usually as confidently wrong as it is confidently right about something.
6:22
SPEAKER_00: And so I have had just many cases where Sometimes it's a minor detail,
6:28
SPEAKER_00: but it has major implications.
6:30
SPEAKER_00: If, in this example I mentioned,
6:32
SPEAKER_00: if I'm sending a registered letter to start a certain process and according
6:36
SPEAKER_00: to statute thus and so and subsection this,
6:39
SPEAKER_00: it says this and therefore you must do that.
6:43
SPEAKER_00: And that's all fine and good, but what if it's citing the statute wrong?
6:47
SPEAKER_00: It's got all the points right,
6:48
SPEAKER_00: the points are correct,
6:50
SPEAKER_00: but somehow the name of the specific statute and subsection is hallucinated.
6:55
SPEAKER_00: Knock on wood,
6:56
SPEAKER_00: I've avoided sending anything out like that that would have a glaring error,
7:00
SPEAKER_00: but that's only because I've double checked.
7:02
SPEAKER_00: And of course, I still will just type in Google and check for myself and run things down.
7:09
SPEAKER_00: But yeah,
7:10
SPEAKER_00: as optimistic as I am and as comfortable as I am,
7:14
SPEAKER_00: I use both of those tools every day throughout the day.
7:18
SPEAKER_00: I have also really almost gotten bitten in the behind so much
7:22
SPEAKER_00: that I am really careful to double check.
7:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, trust but verify.
7:28
SPEAKER_02: It's interesting that you're using ChatGPT and Claude to check on each other.
7:32
SPEAKER_02: Can you talk a little bit more about how you do that?
7:35
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
7:36
SPEAKER_00: Well, for instance,
7:38
SPEAKER_00: I maintain what I call a hit list,
7:41
SPEAKER_00: a daily to-do list that is also a project management database.
7:48
SPEAKER_00: So between all these different things going on,
7:51
SPEAKER_00: the personal,
7:51
SPEAKER_00: the professional,
7:53
SPEAKER_00: the administrative layer of our life being immigrants here in France,
7:58
SPEAKER_00: I have so many things that pop up.
8:00
SPEAKER_00: And of course, you'll get an email in the middle of some other project.
8:04
SPEAKER_00: I take a quick break because I need to check my email for something.
8:07
SPEAKER_00: And then while I'm checking email,
8:08
SPEAKER_00: I see something completely unrelated, but I'm like, oh, I need to log this.
8:11
SPEAKER_00: So I'll throw that into ChatGPT and I'll run this daily log of things that are going on.
8:17
SPEAKER_00: I'll plan my work, looking ahead, et cetera.
8:20
SPEAKER_00: But then also as a producer to read other people's scripts.
8:23
SPEAKER_00: And of course I will do them the honor of actually reading it myself,
8:26
SPEAKER_00: but I will admit that besides people who are friends or good writers
8:31
SPEAKER_00: or trusted colleagues where I'm absolutely just going to start reading from page one
8:35
SPEAKER_00: on my own.
8:36
SPEAKER_00: I also get the friend of a friend request to look at something
8:41
SPEAKER_00: or something that's not in my wheelhouse.
8:43
SPEAKER_00: A friend of a friend had a project,
8:45
SPEAKER_00: wanted my opinion on its viability,
8:49
SPEAKER_00: and I was told at the top it's a horror film and it's really a super kind
8:53
SPEAKER_00: of gory horror film.
8:55
SPEAKER_00: And I'm not squeamish, but that's not my taste.
8:57
SPEAKER_00: The horror that I like is psychological horror.
8:59
SPEAKER_00: It's not really my wheelhouse.
9:00
SPEAKER_00: So I did have Claude first do a thorough breakdown of it to tell me, okay, what's this about?
9:08
SPEAKER_00: What's working?
9:09
SPEAKER_00: What's not working?
9:10
SPEAKER_00: And I even gave it the instruction,
9:11
SPEAKER_00: don't spoil it for me because I'm still going to read this thing for my friend of
9:15
SPEAKER_00: a friend,
9:16
SPEAKER_00: but give me the lay of the land so that I don't want to experience it in
9:20
SPEAKER_00: that I didn't want to read it the way you would normally want to read a script.
9:24
SPEAKER_00: It's like you watch a film where you don't really know how it's going to end.
9:28
SPEAKER_00: You're in the world.
9:29
SPEAKER_00: I didn't want to give myself over to that world.
9:32
SPEAKER_00: I just wanted to get it into my head,
9:33
SPEAKER_00: analyze it,
9:35
SPEAKER_00: and be able to give the guy the best feedback that would help him,
9:39
SPEAKER_00: which is what I did.
9:41
SPEAKER_00: And it kind of sucked, by the way.
9:42
SPEAKER_00: He had a lot of problems.
9:43
SPEAKER_00: So I'm glad that I didn't spend multiple hours giving it the thoughtful read
9:48
SPEAKER_00: and having the jump scares on the page coming at me
9:51
SPEAKER_00: and read these graphic descriptions and all this stuff.
9:54
SPEAKER_00: I don't need that in my head and in my heart and I don't need to burn the hours in the day.
9:59
SPEAKER_00: So it's been really useful with that.
10:01
SPEAKER_00: But as far as using the two of them together,
10:04
SPEAKER_00: what I have found is that as of right now,
10:08
SPEAKER_00: Claude seems to be much better at understanding creative material.
10:14
SPEAKER_00: Being able to have some literary intelligence,
10:17
SPEAKER_00: whereas ChatGPT is great at the raw crunching of numbers and data,
10:23
SPEAKER_00: and they both can do each other's thing.
10:25
SPEAKER_00: I'm highlighting as an example.
10:27
SPEAKER_00: For instance,
10:28
SPEAKER_00: I might be working in Claude extensively on breaking down a script
10:33
SPEAKER_00: or doing some research about a market or how certain tax incentives,
10:37
SPEAKER_00: production incentives might apply to a project I'm developing for myself,
10:40
SPEAKER_00: and I need you to model this out for me.
10:43
SPEAKER_00: And I'm working in Claude all day doing that.
10:45
SPEAKER_00: And when I'm at a stopping point on the given task,
10:47
SPEAKER_00: I will say, okay, write me a short prompt that I can update the hit list.
10:51
SPEAKER_00: So Claude will give me an update or whatever we just did on the project.
10:55
SPEAKER_00: I'll copy that.
10:55
SPEAKER_00: I'll paste it into GPT's hit list.
10:58
SPEAKER_00: And so I'll maintain the hit list all day in chat GPT.
11:00
SPEAKER_00: And then at the end of the day,
11:02
SPEAKER_00: when I'm done,
11:03
SPEAKER_00: or if I forget before I go to bed the next morning,
11:06
SPEAKER_00: I'll say to GPT, okay, give me a comprehensive update for Claude's hit list.
11:11
SPEAKER_00: From wherever we did the last one.
11:12
SPEAKER_00: It'll do that.
11:13
SPEAKER_00: I'll paste it into my hit list in Claude and that way they stay in sync.
11:17
SPEAKER_00: And they also both have the standing instruction of cross-check each other,
11:22
SPEAKER_00: don't make assumptions that are not in the text of what I'm saying,
11:25
SPEAKER_00: et cetera, et cetera.
11:26
SPEAKER_00: And also it sets a log of action items.
11:30
SPEAKER_00: It's a backup to my own notes that I make with a log and set an alarm or an alert for something.
11:35
SPEAKER_00: It's a backup to that.
11:38
SPEAKER_00: And I also ask it to surface things that I said was an interesting possibility
11:44
SPEAKER_00: or something I wanted to develop an idea and I haven't mentioned it in weeks.
11:48
SPEAKER_00: I will ask it about once a week.
11:50
SPEAKER_00: Hey, dig through our archives.
11:52
SPEAKER_00: Is there anything that I was really excited about a month ago that I haven't mentioned since?
11:56
SPEAKER_00: Tell me what that thing is.
11:57
SPEAKER_00: The idea is that the good ideas stay with you and that you don't forget them.
12:01
SPEAKER_00: But anyone who's ever had a great idea right before bed or they woke up in
12:05
SPEAKER_00: the middle of the night and they didn't write it down, we know where those ideas go.
12:09
SPEAKER_00: They usually disappear.
12:10
SPEAKER_00: So it's been really useful that way.
12:13
SPEAKER_00: But also since integrating clawed into the workflow,
12:17
SPEAKER_00: it's helped enormously with the vetting and the cross-checking of specifically
12:24
SPEAKER_00: the administrative layer stuff,
12:26
SPEAKER_00: the family operations that I do that I run mostly in GPT as the principal domain.
12:32
SPEAKER_00: Claude's been really great about double-checking that and adding nuance.
12:37
SPEAKER_00: When an opinion is requested, Claude will have sometimes an interesting second opinion.
12:43
SPEAKER_00: I think of them both as second sets of digital eyes.
12:47
SPEAKER_00: Kind of second digital brains or at least second memories to help me in that way.
12:52
SPEAKER_02: Is there an example that you could share of a time when Claude came up
12:55
SPEAKER_02: with something that ChatGPT had overlooked or vice versa?
12:59
SPEAKER_02: Anything small or specific, not too personal?
13:02
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
13:02
SPEAKER_00: There are lots of examples like that.
13:04
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
13:04
SPEAKER_00: I just remembered, I'm thinking on my feet here.
13:07
SPEAKER_00: Most recently, for this one film project I'm developing.
13:11
SPEAKER_00: That's a film I wrote for me to direct.
13:13
SPEAKER_00: It's set here, mostly Paris, but it's also meant to be a French-led co-production with the UK.
13:19
SPEAKER_00: And I already know the broad strokes of the financial incentives,
13:24
SPEAKER_00: the different incentives that the countries offer.
13:26
SPEAKER_00: I know that and I know the mechanisms to approach what I did not know in something
13:32
SPEAKER_00: that ChatGPT had never surfaced in its research.
13:37
SPEAKER_00: Claude said, well,
13:38
SPEAKER_00: have you thought of,
13:39
SPEAKER_00: are you aware of the blah, blah, blah,
13:41
SPEAKER_00: this certain specific development incentive that's available and this project
13:46
SPEAKER_00: of mine It's still reviewed by a committee that you have to apply
13:51
SPEAKER_00: and they review everything and they decide if they want to give you this at all.
13:55
SPEAKER_00: And if so,
13:56
SPEAKER_00: how much,
13:57
SPEAKER_00: but we check all the boxes to apply every single box and it's worth up to half
14:02
SPEAKER_00: a million euros.
14:04
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
14:05
SPEAKER_02: Nice.
14:05
SPEAKER_00: And that's on top of everything else for like a 4 million euro project.
14:10
SPEAKER_00: It's worth up to half a million euros.
14:13
SPEAKER_00: And so that's pretty cool.
14:15
SPEAKER_00: And ChatGPT never told me about it.
14:18
SPEAKER_00: ChatGPT was keeping a secret or just didn't think to dig,
14:21
SPEAKER_00: but Claude understood it and also was then able to say, here's what you need.
14:25
SPEAKER_00: Although I'm a producer and I'm a resident of France,
14:29
SPEAKER_00: I must have a French producer with certain qualifications,
14:32
SPEAKER_00: certain registration, certain track record, blah, blah, blah.
14:35
SPEAKER_00: I'm looking for that person now.
14:37
SPEAKER_00: They have to lead said application for said funds.
14:41
SPEAKER_00: So Claude was really extensive in its offering and I'm using Cloud Cowork
14:47
SPEAKER_00: to track all these projects to build the target list for outreach and everything.
14:52
SPEAKER_00: And it's been really insightful comparing various potential partners,
14:58
SPEAKER_00: bodies of work, what their public position is.
15:01
SPEAKER_00: It scours for comments they've given at a film festival or an event or something
15:06
SPEAKER_00: to kind of take the temperature to sort of make a guess of, well, yes,
15:10
SPEAKER_00: their stated mission is they make this kind of film and they've got a track record
15:14
SPEAKER_00: of this.
15:14
SPEAKER_00: But recently the head of the company said this thing that indicates maybe they're changing.
15:19
SPEAKER_00: So that's useful.
15:21
SPEAKER_00: And so Claude is really good.
15:23
SPEAKER_00: It seems more comprehensively I don't want to say more humanistic
15:28
SPEAKER_00: in its intelligence,
15:29
SPEAKER_00: but there's more of a syncretic approach to the way it analyzes things.
15:34
SPEAKER_00: And it's not just like in a very narrow lane or very narrow slice.
15:40
SPEAKER_00: It actually seems to have a much more holistic way that it looks at a given problem.
15:45
SPEAKER_00: If you ask it to do that and open it up to do that.
15:49
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
15:49
SPEAKER_02: That's a very interesting story.
15:50
SPEAKER_02: So thank you for sharing that.
15:51
SPEAKER_02: And wow, it'd be great if you could get that project award, right?
15:55
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
15:56
SPEAKER_00: Yes, it would make a huge difference.
15:59
SPEAKER_00: It would appeal to the potential French partner heavily.
16:02
SPEAKER_00: It would de-risk it for them to get on board pretty massively.
16:06
SPEAKER_00: So yes, thank you.
16:07
SPEAKER_00: It would be very good.
16:09
SPEAKER_00: Fingers crossed.
16:10
SPEAKER_02: Great, great.
16:11
SPEAKER_02: Well,
16:11
SPEAKER_02: you mentioned copying and pasting things between them and it generates a prompt,
16:15
SPEAKER_02: you paste it in the other.
16:16
SPEAKER_02: Do you mostly work with these tools on your computers on where you've got keyboard
16:20
SPEAKER_02: and that, or do you work with it in other modes?
16:23
SPEAKER_00: I use both of them on mobile as well as on the desktop
16:31
SPEAKER_00: and I most frequently use voice to text input and part of why my kind
16:39
SPEAKER_00: of daily to-do list resides on ChatGPT is that I believe that Claude is up
16:45
SPEAKER_00: to their limit on this,
16:46
SPEAKER_00: but Claude's voice to text input had been limited at what seems to be about
16:51
SPEAKER_00: a minute.
16:52
SPEAKER_00: I never timed it exactly,
16:53
SPEAKER_00: but it seemed to be about only one minute before it would stop and
16:55
SPEAKER_00: that tool wouldn't be available.
16:57
SPEAKER_00: And you could type or you could use the dictation on your computer or just send the prompt.
17:03
SPEAKER_00: But with ChatGPT,
17:05
SPEAKER_00: it allows for 10 minutes at a time of voice to text input and then You can stop it
17:12
SPEAKER_00: or to pause and process it, but it hasn't sent the prompt.
17:15
SPEAKER_00: And then you can start another one.
17:16
SPEAKER_00: And I have very frequently on really complex problems,
17:20
SPEAKER_00: like all the household insurance legalistic things that I was talking about.
17:26
SPEAKER_00: There's so many moving parts,
17:28
SPEAKER_00: so many variables, so many considerations that I have left massive prompts.
17:33
SPEAKER_00: I was laughing about this when we were going back and forth by email about this question.
17:40
SPEAKER_00: And I realized that I don't know what my record is.
17:42
SPEAKER_00: I probably done the equivalent of an hour and a half or an hour and 40 minutes worth
17:47
SPEAKER_00: of voice to text input before I hit the inner key.
17:52
SPEAKER_00: I typically will do sometimes a few minutes.
17:55
SPEAKER_00: Anyone listening right now may think, God, this guy's long-winded.
17:58
SPEAKER_00: Trust me, I can get more long-winded and I can also be brief.
18:01
SPEAKER_00: I've also typed very,
18:03
SPEAKER_00: very specific short little prompts that I just type them,
18:06
SPEAKER_00: but With the phone,
18:09
SPEAKER_00: I'm typically walking around, and so I don't really use the voice chat feature much.
18:15
SPEAKER_00: I've used it a few times.
18:17
SPEAKER_00: I've played with that on both of the tools.
18:20
SPEAKER_00: I don't love it.
18:21
SPEAKER_00: It's okay,
18:22
SPEAKER_00: but it's always also listening for when it should shut up and when you're talking,
18:25
SPEAKER_00: and there's always so much ambient noise.
18:27
SPEAKER_00: When I'm using it, I'm in transit.
18:30
SPEAKER_00: I'm walking to and from picking my daughter up or taking her to daycare.
18:34
SPEAKER_00: There's ambient noise and it constantly would freeze and think I'm talking
18:39
SPEAKER_00: and now it's just some construction worker I'm walking past.
18:42
SPEAKER_00: But I use the voice input,
18:45
SPEAKER_00: voice to text input really extensively so that I can also just brain dump and
18:51
SPEAKER_00: then say, organize this.
18:54
SPEAKER_00: And if I need to write some big document,
18:58
SPEAKER_00: I will get all my thoughts out into GPT that will capture it all and
19:04
SPEAKER_00: then okay give me a full read out of this something I wanted to say at the beginning
19:08
SPEAKER_00: of the document might have been something that occurred to me right
19:11
SPEAKER_00: before I finished and sent the prompt and so then it will of course organize it
19:14
SPEAKER_00: so it's great for being able to free associate and brainstorm and often I will get
19:21
SPEAKER_00: a draft of some document like that I'll get that draft together in GPT and
19:25
SPEAKER_00: then I will give it to Claude with a very small prompt that basically says,
19:30
SPEAKER_00: I did this with ChatGPT.
19:32
SPEAKER_00: Please make it prettier.
19:33
SPEAKER_00: You know, please give it a shave and haircut and let's see if we can tweak this.
19:37
SPEAKER_00: Oh, and by the way, it needs to be in French.
19:39
SPEAKER_00: So use this tense.
19:40
SPEAKER_00: It's going to this government agency or whatever.
19:42
SPEAKER_00: So it will use the right tense and make it so.
19:47
SPEAKER_02: Very nice.
19:47
SPEAKER_02: So it sounds like you're making really good use of AI tools for a lot of different things.
19:51
SPEAKER_02: Are there any things that you avoid using AI tools for?
19:55
SPEAKER_02: When would you avoid it and why would you choose not to use AI for that?
19:59
SPEAKER_00: Well, one big issue and primarily in the film business,
20:01
SPEAKER_00: so I say my industry,
20:02
SPEAKER_00: I mean film and TV to some big issue in all creative industries
20:06
SPEAKER_00: and very specifically in my primary industry is the backlash and fear and all
20:15
SPEAKER_00: the feelings about people using generative AI in creative work.
20:20
SPEAKER_00: And I share the feelings that generative AI as people usually mean,
20:26
SPEAKER_00: you know, writing scripts or creating the work.
20:30
SPEAKER_00: I don't do that.
20:31
SPEAKER_00: I am not a fan of it.
20:34
SPEAKER_00: The AI generated music that I've heard is even the best of it is passable
20:42
SPEAKER_00: as average music for real musicians,
20:45
SPEAKER_00: although the fake production quality can be impressive because they're pulling
20:49
SPEAKER_00: from established master recordings.
20:52
SPEAKER_00: And so they're able to reproduce that to a degree.
20:55
SPEAKER_00: But in terms of creative writing, It's lacking and I wouldn't want to use it anyway, of course.
21:02
SPEAKER_00: I mean, for better or worse,
21:03
SPEAKER_00: someone might read my stuff and think I'm terrible,
21:05
SPEAKER_00: but if it's got my name on it, it's going to have been written completely by me.
21:09
SPEAKER_00: What I do use it for is helping to analyze things I have written.
21:16
SPEAKER_00: I don't ask it to improve my writing.
21:18
SPEAKER_00: I'm saying, is there something I set up and didn't pay off?
21:23
SPEAKER_00: Is there some structural issue with this?
21:26
SPEAKER_00: Check for typos that I'm blind to.
21:29
SPEAKER_00: Things like that I use it in a proofreading sense to catch errors and mistakes
21:36
SPEAKER_00: but I don't use it for generative work that I call my work there is a recent example
21:43
SPEAKER_00: with my musician hat on I'm slowly chipping away on a personal passion project
21:51
SPEAKER_00: which is that I want to release an album of original hard rock music I have a lot
22:00
SPEAKER_00: of songs written.
22:01
SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure how many of these specifically would go on this record,
22:03
SPEAKER_00: but I had this one demo sitting around where I had used the tools I have here
22:10
SPEAKER_00: at hand.
22:10
SPEAKER_00: I don't happen to have an electric guitar and recording interface.
22:13
SPEAKER_00: I don't have all that here.
22:15
SPEAKER_00: I've got one set in storage in LA and I've got one in our apartment we own in Beijing.
22:20
SPEAKER_00: I don't have those tools here.
22:23
SPEAKER_00: And I had this song, but all I have is a classical guitar here and they have a podcast mic.
22:30
SPEAKER_00: But I do have Logic Pro music software, so I was able to record and engineer things.
22:36
SPEAKER_00: So I programmed drums,
22:39
SPEAKER_00: I played and sang it as best as I could,
22:42
SPEAKER_00: and I just had it there to get the song down.
22:44
SPEAKER_00: I was talking with a friend in New Zealand,
22:48
SPEAKER_00: And he's not a professional musician,
22:50
SPEAKER_00: but he has a Suno Pro account and he uses it to play around and amuse himself.
22:55
SPEAKER_00: And we got to talking and the bottom line,
22:58
SPEAKER_00: the short version of the much longer story is I told him that what I want to do
23:03
SPEAKER_00: with this demo is to use this as a guide for my drummer to play the real drums to.
23:08
SPEAKER_00: Then I put his tracks in.
23:10
SPEAKER_00: Then I go to my friend's studio in Paris and I do all my guitars.
23:14
SPEAKER_00: I send it,
23:15
SPEAKER_00: I send everything to my bass player slash second guitarist and other vocalists
23:20
SPEAKER_00: for him to do his parts in Atlanta.
23:22
SPEAKER_00: And I'd put it together like this.
23:25
SPEAKER_00: And he said, well, I wonder what Suno would do with it.
23:28
SPEAKER_00: And I said, you know, I'm curious too.
23:31
SPEAKER_00: I gave him a massive prompt sent him the demo and the lyric sheet and he ran it
23:35
SPEAKER_00: through Suno Pro and he played with all the different sliders and options
23:38
SPEAKER_00: and it spit out eight versions no one of them is right start to finish
23:45
SPEAKER_00: and especially the ones where he opened up the variability
23:49
SPEAKER_00: the weirdness control I think they literally call it weirdness it often rearranged
23:54
SPEAKER_00: it it changed all kinds of things but I was able to do a composite
24:00
SPEAKER_00: from four different takes that I edited together that is an excellent blueprint for
24:08
SPEAKER_00: the song.
24:09
SPEAKER_00: It sounds like a cover band doing my song,
24:12
SPEAKER_00: you know, because it's not me singing, but it is exactly my melody and everything.
24:17
SPEAKER_00: So it's really useful as a template for the other guys to record their parts.
24:23
SPEAKER_00: I have the ability to, in music, it's called stems.
24:26
SPEAKER_00: You can separate out the elements.
24:28
SPEAKER_00: Although I don't have that from what my friend sent me, I can do that myself.
24:32
SPEAKER_00: It's an AI process in Logic Pro.
24:34
SPEAKER_00: I can take out just the guitars, just the vocals, just the drums, whatever.
24:39
SPEAKER_00: And so I can do versions where there's no guitars and then I go in and I listen to
24:43
SPEAKER_00: that and I play all my guitars.
24:46
SPEAKER_00: Ironically, my drummer in LA, Mike, he's really so against generative AI.
24:53
SPEAKER_00: He was horrified when I did this.
24:57
SPEAKER_00: He basically said,
24:58
SPEAKER_00: I'd much rather play along to your program drum pattern and your acoustic guitar
25:04
SPEAKER_00: than this.
25:05
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, well, okay.
25:06
SPEAKER_00: But it's good for me because it's inspiring to me to be able to hear something that,
25:13
SPEAKER_00: though not me, It's a reasonable facsimile of a master recording.
25:18
SPEAKER_00: And so I'm like, okay, this song really works for me.
25:21
SPEAKER_00: It's a proof of concept where I know it works now.
25:25
SPEAKER_00: For the people who like that kind of thing, it's properly rendered, it would work.
25:31
SPEAKER_00: So it's ironic.
25:32
SPEAKER_00: It was a fun little experiment.
25:33
SPEAKER_00: It validated to me that the song is good.
25:38
SPEAKER_00: And it's interesting to have listened to what Sunu got very right
25:42
SPEAKER_00: with my 22 paragraph prompt that my friend left.
25:45
SPEAKER_00: Sunu couldn't take all my prompt.
25:47
SPEAKER_00: He had to kind of rework it on his end using DeepSeek.
25:50
SPEAKER_00: My friend uses DeepSeek to do things.
25:54
SPEAKER_00: But then ironically enough,
25:55
SPEAKER_00: one of the two other humans who I made it for rejected it as just on principle.
26:02
SPEAKER_00: And I respect that he has strong principles.
26:04
SPEAKER_00: I guess I'm a little squishier because it excited me to hear an iteration
26:09
SPEAKER_00: that proves that at least the song is worth going to the trouble to do.
26:12
SPEAKER_00: I think people who like that kind of thing will like it if we do it right.
26:15
SPEAKER_00: But the finished product would never have a millisecond of any of that.
26:19
SPEAKER_00: You would never hear any of that on the finished product.
26:24
SPEAKER_00: I'm giving you the link if anybody listening to this is really curious.
26:28
SPEAKER_00: I did a YouTube video that's kind of fun that plays,
26:33
SPEAKER_00: like here's my demo, here's the Suno version, et cetera.
26:36
SPEAKER_00: And I talk about that in a lot of detail.
26:38
SPEAKER_00: I forget the original question, but I know that was somehow part of your question.
26:42
SPEAKER_00: I kind of took liberty with that.
26:43
SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah, we started talking about things that you would or wouldn't use AI for.
26:48
SPEAKER_02: And so it sounds like your friend feels very strongly about not using it
26:50
SPEAKER_02: for anything relating to music.
26:52
SPEAKER_02: But it's funny,
26:53
SPEAKER_02: when I first started writing on Substack two and a half years ago,
26:57
SPEAKER_02: I started looking at AI for music in particular and so I did this series
27:00
SPEAKER_02: where I was looking into the different things that they used it for
27:03
SPEAKER_02: and stem separation came up as one and that's
27:05
SPEAKER_02: where I feel like people say okay you know you were doing that
27:08
SPEAKER_02: before generative AI came along there were other ways of doing stem separation
27:12
SPEAKER_02: so conceptually it doesn't feel as much like stealing I think to a lot
27:16
SPEAKER_02: of people like okay if you use it
27:17
SPEAKER_02: to separate stems you're not really taking somebody else's work and copying it.
27:22
SPEAKER_02: But then there are other uses where it obviously feels a lot more like copying,
27:25
SPEAKER_02: where you can hear influences from these specific musicians that were probably used
27:30
SPEAKER_02: as the basis for that.
27:31
SPEAKER_02: And so it's a really interesting area.
27:33
SPEAKER_02: And I went through it for almost a year and then moved on to other topics,
27:36
SPEAKER_02: but I think it's interesting to explore that.
27:40
SPEAKER_00: That is interesting.
27:41
SPEAKER_00: And one of the things that I really discovered was apparently Suno has listened to
27:47
SPEAKER_00: a lot of Nickelback
27:50
SPEAKER_00: I get no shade.
27:51
SPEAKER_00: They've had a lot of success, but that's not what I'm trying to do.
27:54
SPEAKER_00: But yet the result that Suno gave me,
27:57
SPEAKER_00: it sounds like basically Nickelback covered my song for better or for worse.
28:02
SPEAKER_00: Might be for the better of my bank account,
28:04
SPEAKER_00: but unfortunately for Nickelback fans,
28:06
SPEAKER_00: my song will not really sound quite like that, but I digress.
28:12
SPEAKER_02: So this album that you're developing,
28:13
SPEAKER_02: do you have a specific plan that you're working towards for
28:15
SPEAKER_02: when you would potentially release it?
28:18
SPEAKER_00: My goal is that I have it finished before a certain birthday.
28:23
SPEAKER_00: My birthday's in January, so not this coming January, but the January of the year after.
28:30
SPEAKER_00: I'm hoping to get it all tracked and done to release it on my 60th birthday.
28:36
SPEAKER_00: The album is called Late Midlife Crisis.
28:39
SPEAKER_02: That's a great one.
28:41
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
28:43
SPEAKER_00: If the title fits, use it.
28:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
28:47
SPEAKER_02: Well, that's a very cool project.
28:48
SPEAKER_02: As you said,
28:48
SPEAKER_02: you've been doing music for a long time,
28:50
SPEAKER_02: but film is your primary area of work, right?
28:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:54
SPEAKER_00: Yes, exactly.
28:55
SPEAKER_02: Have you ever experimented with any of the tools that will generate videos?
29:01
SPEAKER_00: I have not.
29:02
SPEAKER_00: I have not.
29:05
SPEAKER_00: I haven't had any need to and I wouldn't want to for anything that I do.
29:09
SPEAKER_00: I've watched a bunch of YouTube videos on those various tools.
29:15
SPEAKER_00: The only thing that I considered playing around with was again
29:19
SPEAKER_00: for something totally non-commercial that I have written for fun.
29:24
SPEAKER_00: I naturally just kind of come up with little things to sing or say.
29:28
SPEAKER_00: And when my daughter was still in the oven,
29:32
SPEAKER_00: I came up with a song called The Goodnight Song that I was singing to her
29:34
SPEAKER_00: in Mama's Belly.
29:36
SPEAKER_00: And so I've done it myself now.
29:37
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I've actually got that.
29:39
SPEAKER_00: It's not released publicly or anything,
29:41
SPEAKER_00: but I've recorded that as well as I could here at home and mixed it up nice.
29:45
SPEAKER_00: But I've written about, a few of them are ideas.
29:50
SPEAKER_00: I would say I probably have about, I have seven or eight complete children's songs.
29:55
SPEAKER_00: And I'd kind of like to put them out, you know, I'd kind of like to put them out for fun.
30:02
SPEAKER_00: Some of them are personalized to my daughter.
30:04
SPEAKER_00: So for one that I would release, I would need to make it accessible to any kid listening to it.
30:09
SPEAKER_00: But I thought about how to do that.
30:12
SPEAKER_00: And so I thought, well,
30:14
SPEAKER_00: what I'd probably do,
30:16
SPEAKER_00: ideally I would put them all together and have them do some animation.
30:20
SPEAKER_00: No, I'm not an animator.
30:22
SPEAKER_00: I can't hire an animator.
30:24
SPEAKER_00: And of course there are all these,
30:25
SPEAKER_00: I don't know about your feed,
30:27
SPEAKER_00: but there are periods where I'm inundated with ads
30:29
SPEAKER_00: for various AI animation slash cartoon type creation tools.
30:35
SPEAKER_00: And it's often targeted to people doing TikToks or whatever,
30:38
SPEAKER_00: but I kind of looked at some of that stuff.
30:41
SPEAKER_00: But generally speaking, it all looks the same to me.
30:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Dunn County Valley, we should be so lucky.
30:47
SPEAKER_00: It all looks like AI animation to me.
30:50
SPEAKER_00: But that's the most I've looked at.
30:51
SPEAKER_00: And I'm lucky professionally.
30:53
SPEAKER_00: My cinematographer is a longtime partner of mine.
30:57
SPEAKER_00: And our colorist is his friend and collaborator who is one of the top colorists in the world.
31:04
SPEAKER_00: So I have an amazing cinematographer.
31:06
SPEAKER_00: I have an amazing colorist who does all my projects.
31:10
SPEAKER_00: I'm very fortunate to have that relationship.
31:13
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I wouldn't use anything AI generated on a commercial project.
31:20
SPEAKER_00: I do have two YouTube channels.
31:22
SPEAKER_00: My wife and I have one called Shea Davis about being
31:25
SPEAKER_00: a multicultural immigrant family, raising a kid near Paris.
31:29
SPEAKER_00: And then I have my longstanding channel,
31:31
SPEAKER_00: Brendan Davis, Cinema and Sound, which is over 20 years old.
31:35
SPEAKER_00: I started it shortly after YouTube was created.
31:39
SPEAKER_00: That channel is largely a repository for my non-commercial things.
31:45
SPEAKER_00: There's everything from archives of old podcasts that I hosted and produced
31:50
SPEAKER_00: to some short sketches, like comedy sketches I did with a friend years ago.
31:54
SPEAKER_00: I do have a couple of proper short films that are professionally shot and produced
32:00
SPEAKER_00: that I did that are on there.
32:03
SPEAKER_00: But I considered experimenting with the generated cartoon video for my children's album idea.
32:13
SPEAKER_00: There aren't enough hours in the day.
32:15
SPEAKER_00: I have diverse interests,
32:17
SPEAKER_00: but in terms of what I'm actually working on at any one time,
32:19
SPEAKER_00: I have to be pretty ruthless or else I will be on the street.
32:23
SPEAKER_00: So I have to focus on the mission.
32:26
SPEAKER_00: Music is already enough of a sidebar.
32:28
SPEAKER_00: That's why I said it's going to take over a year to finish it.
32:31
SPEAKER_00: If I had two solid weeks in a real recording studio,
32:35
SPEAKER_00: I could knock out the basics and send those tracks to the guys
32:39
SPEAKER_00: and they can do their parts and then it'd probably take me a month to mix it
32:43
SPEAKER_00: or I might get someone else to mix it.
32:45
SPEAKER_00: But it's an hours in the day and money in the bank question.
32:48
SPEAKER_00: It's not an ability or motivation issue.
32:50
SPEAKER_00: It's just time and money.
32:53
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's priorities.
32:54
SPEAKER_02: There's always trade-offs.
32:55
SPEAKER_02: One thing I'm curious about with a three-year-old daughter,
32:57
SPEAKER_02: you and I first met through the She Rates AI subscriber chat because we were looking
33:02
SPEAKER_02: for narrators for the audio book.
33:04
SPEAKER_02: One of the chapters in the book is by Karla Engelbrecht
33:07
SPEAKER_02: and she's done professional children's videos and that kind of content.
33:12
SPEAKER_02: And her chapter is talking about how there's so much AI slop in children's videos,
33:16
SPEAKER_02: you know,
33:16
SPEAKER_02: ABCs at the zoo and they may tell a child about a vegetable or a fruit that is toxic
33:22
SPEAKER_02: to children or just all kinds of things that a human creating that would never say,
33:30
SPEAKER_02: tell children to eat elderberries, for instance.
33:33
SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
33:34
SPEAKER_02: There's just a lot of examples of that.
33:35
SPEAKER_02: And so that's one of the things that she talks about in her chapter is being wary
33:39
SPEAKER_02: of how children's content is created and that there's so much on YouTube
33:43
SPEAKER_02: that is not necessarily safe for kids,
33:46
SPEAKER_02: even though it's ABCs at the zoo,
33:48
SPEAKER_02: but it could be hazardous because kids won't know better, you know?
33:51
SPEAKER_00: And it's amazing that no one is vetting that on their end.
33:56
SPEAKER_00: To make sure that the thing that they generated with a prompt that is spit out
34:01
SPEAKER_00: before they upload it to check and make sure that that's okay.
34:05
SPEAKER_00: That's not good.
34:06
SPEAKER_00: That's not good.
34:08
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, definitely.
34:09
SPEAKER_02: So I want to come back to something that you had hinted at when you were talking
34:12
SPEAKER_02: about your friends and some of their reservations,
34:14
SPEAKER_02: but looking at where these AI tools get the data and the content that they train on.
34:21
SPEAKER_02: Systems or things that are published online may have been copyrighted,
34:24
SPEAKER_02: but they were publicly available was one term that they use,
34:28
SPEAKER_02: but really not free for the public to use as they wish.
34:31
SPEAKER_02: And companies aren't always very transparent about how they intend
34:34
SPEAKER_02: to use what we post when we sign up for them.
34:37
SPEAKER_02: So I'm wondering what your thoughts are about the concept called the three C's rule,
34:40
SPEAKER_02: which is that creative people should be entitled to consent,
34:44
SPEAKER_02: credit, and be compensated for use of their content.
34:48
SPEAKER_02: And I'm wondering what your thoughts are about that,
34:50
SPEAKER_02: working on both sides of the creative activities.
34:54
SPEAKER_00: I am 100% on board with that concept.
34:57
SPEAKER_00: I absolutely am a huge believer in copyright and in protecting and respecting
35:05
SPEAKER_00: the integrity of creative work.
35:07
SPEAKER_00: And I think especially as the AI tools get better and are able to get Closer to
35:15
SPEAKER_00: the real thing in whatever area we're talking about.
35:19
SPEAKER_00: I think that it's going to be even more important to respect the humans behind
35:26
SPEAKER_00: the creativity and the actual human author work and to take care of that.
35:32
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
35:33
SPEAKER_00: I know enough about this and I'm interested in this and I've read enough about it
35:37
SPEAKER_00: that I'm probably more educated than the average person, but I'm not an expert.
35:41
SPEAKER_00: And so I know that there are different factions pushing
35:47
SPEAKER_00: to emphasize different aspects of what they want to push for.
35:50
SPEAKER_00: And so it's hard to get people on the same page to get anything done.
35:53
SPEAKER_00: And I don't know what it looks like.
35:54
SPEAKER_00: I don't pretend to have the crystal ball to know what the answer is,
35:59
SPEAKER_00: but I believe in the three C's principle and I am a strong,
36:04
SPEAKER_00: I'll sign any petition you put in front of me.
36:06
SPEAKER_00: If you have one that says, let's do something about it.
36:10
SPEAKER_00: As I said before,
36:11
SPEAKER_00: with the Suno experiment,
36:13
SPEAKER_00: I don't know where they're getting the material,
36:14
SPEAKER_00: but it's clear that they listen to a lot of Nickelback.
36:17
SPEAKER_00: I think those guys and those teams all need to be credited and compensated.
36:22
SPEAKER_00: The flip side of this is that for the tools to get better and therefore more useful
36:29
SPEAKER_00: to all of us, they need a lot of material, of course.
36:33
SPEAKER_00: Maybe AI creative writing is what it is because it's not reading all of the best stuff.
36:39
SPEAKER_00: Garbage in, garbage out, but that's not an excuse just to steal stuff.
36:44
SPEAKER_00: I've lived in places,
36:47
SPEAKER_00: and I'm not saying this to throw shade,
36:48
SPEAKER_00: but China's concept of copyright and intellectual property,
36:53
SPEAKER_00: respecting intellectual property, is a touch different than mine.
36:57
SPEAKER_00: It's just a wee bit more laissez-faire, let's say it like that.
37:02
SPEAKER_00: So the idea that you can just kind of freely take something that someone else is
37:09
SPEAKER_00: and I had a friend in the UK we're talking about something and he's
37:11
SPEAKER_00: an educated person and I feel like he's on the right side of
37:15
SPEAKER_00: the very societal issues that we engage on and
37:21
SPEAKER_00: Yet he was,
37:22
SPEAKER_00: I was mentioning something about how I,
37:24
SPEAKER_00: there was some project and I said,
37:26
SPEAKER_00: you know,
37:26
SPEAKER_00: I need to,
37:27
SPEAKER_00: I can't afford to license this certain piece of music from someone else
37:31
SPEAKER_00: that I really like.
37:32
SPEAKER_00: And so I said, what I need to do, I guess I'm going to need to produce something.
37:36
SPEAKER_00: It's not a copy,
37:37
SPEAKER_00: but it's enough of a,
37:39
SPEAKER_00: it's not even a sound alike per se to kind of point you in the direction
37:42
SPEAKER_00: that I'm getting at.
37:43
SPEAKER_00: It's basically a vibe alike.
37:44
SPEAKER_00: It's got enough of the same vibe.
37:47
SPEAKER_00: That is going to support why I want to use it in this scene.
37:50
SPEAKER_00: And he said, ah, you can just use it, mate.
37:52
SPEAKER_00: It's fair use, fair use.
37:53
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, respectfully, no.
37:57
SPEAKER_00: Respectfully, you don't know what you're talking about.
37:58
SPEAKER_00: Fair use is a very specific doctrine.
38:00
SPEAKER_00: There are very specific limits to how fair use is applied.
38:04
SPEAKER_00: And very specifically, no,
38:06
SPEAKER_00: you can't just use a piece of this published music Even with attribution,
38:11
SPEAKER_00: you can't just use that in a commercial project.
38:14
SPEAKER_00: You cannot do that.
38:15
SPEAKER_00: There are rules about news and whatnot that it doesn't apply.
38:19
SPEAKER_00: I love documentaries and I made some, but in this case, I wasn't making a documentary.
38:22
SPEAKER_00: It's like, no, fair use is not a concept that applies to this type of use or this type of work.
38:27
SPEAKER_00: And so there are people who are well-intentioned, but yet misinformed.
38:33
SPEAKER_00: So yeah,
38:33
SPEAKER_00: I think there needs to be some framework around this and I am the wrong guy
38:37
SPEAKER_00: to draft it.
38:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, one thing when I was looking into the music standards and different tools,
38:43
SPEAKER_02: there was some global surveys about people's attitudes about basically the concept
38:48
SPEAKER_02: of fair use.
38:49
SPEAKER_02: And there are a few countries where they say, hey,
38:50
SPEAKER_02: if it's out there and it's for the common good,
38:53
SPEAKER_02: this is a good thing and they're okay with it.
38:54
SPEAKER_02: And in other cases, the rules on fair use, even in the US, they're not that clear cut.
39:00
SPEAKER_02: There's a joke that if you want to steal one song, that's completely forbidden.
39:05
SPEAKER_02: If you want to go steal a billion of them, yeah, go ahead.
39:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah and I know we're not here to debate that specifically but I used
39:13
SPEAKER_00: to teach filmmaking and producing and MFA programs in Los Angeles.
39:19
SPEAKER_00: And there was one of my modules where one
39:22
SPEAKER_00: the entertainment law professors would come in and be a guest lecturer for
39:26
SPEAKER_00: a certain amount of the classes in this one course that I had.
39:29
SPEAKER_00: And so I learned a lot secondhand and this guy became a good pal
39:32
SPEAKER_00: and we would have lunches and stuff together.
39:34
SPEAKER_00: And one of his lines when he would first walk in and introduce himself
39:37
SPEAKER_00: when we would talk about copyright which is what fair use is obviously concerned
39:42
SPEAKER_00: with.
39:43
SPEAKER_00: He would say, the history of copyright is the history of the Walt Disney Corporation.
39:48
SPEAKER_00: Let me explain the Walt Disney Company and would explain how and why copyright
39:54
SPEAKER_00: as we know it came to be, et cetera.
39:56
SPEAKER_00: And I've heard an excellent legal mind who's defended such cases
40:01
SPEAKER_00: before very high bodies dismantle every argument about fair use that people tend
40:07
SPEAKER_00: to make and with a certitude that only the uninformed can have on that topic.
40:13
SPEAKER_00: So yeah,
40:15
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to hijack the podcast about fair use,
40:17
SPEAKER_00: but unfortunately,
40:18
SPEAKER_00: the point is you can use it on your TikTok video,
40:21
SPEAKER_00: but if you're Lady Gaga putting on a TikTok video,
40:25
SPEAKER_00: you might have to think twice or create a license.
40:28
SPEAKER_00: There are a lot of factors.
40:31
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
40:31
SPEAKER_02: And the lawsuits around this whole area have been really ramping up.
40:34
SPEAKER_02: When I finished my ethical AI book last September,
40:38
SPEAKER_02: There were 45 lawsuits in the US,
40:40
SPEAKER_02: which is already a lot, but as of now, it's more like 140 plus some number overseas.
40:46
SPEAKER_02: And it's interesting,
40:47
SPEAKER_02: some of them are about copyright and fair use,
40:49
SPEAKER_02: and the others are about the unfair market competition.
40:53
SPEAKER_02: Even if it was okay for you to use it,
40:54
SPEAKER_02: you can't use it to generate something that's competing against the person
40:57
SPEAKER_02: whose material it is.
40:58
SPEAKER_02: And so it's a whole area there that I think is interesting.
41:01
SPEAKER_02: But do you know if any of your films, any of your work has ever been used in an AI tool?
41:07
SPEAKER_02: Can you prompt it and say, give me something in the style of Brendan Davis and have it pop out?
41:11
SPEAKER_00: That's a great question.
41:12
SPEAKER_00: I've not ever checked such a thing.
41:15
SPEAKER_00: My body of work is eclectic enough that I don't,
41:21
SPEAKER_00: if we're worried about having a kill switch for AI,
41:23
SPEAKER_00: giving that prompt might just crash AI because I don't think it would be able
41:27
SPEAKER_00: to make sense of my body at work really.
41:30
SPEAKER_00: No, I haven't,
41:31
SPEAKER_00: but you've given me an idea for a rainy day to search,
41:34
SPEAKER_00: to check, not to try to do it, but I don't know what that would look like.
41:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
41:40
SPEAKER_02: But if you do that experiment,
41:42
SPEAKER_02: please write about it on Substack and tell me I'd love to see how it comes out.
41:45
SPEAKER_00: I will.
41:45
SPEAKER_00: You might've given me an idea for a YouTube video.
41:47
SPEAKER_02: Oh, great, great.
41:50
SPEAKER_02: So aside from your films,
41:51
SPEAKER_02: do you know of any cases where your personal data has been used
41:54
SPEAKER_02: in different AI-based tools and systems?
41:58
SPEAKER_00: I can't say for certain in AI-based tools or systems, but I can assume it.
42:04
SPEAKER_00: I don't have a way to prove it with certainty.
42:09
SPEAKER_00: One of the things that we all deal with are different spam emails,
42:12
SPEAKER_00: phishing attempts,
42:14
SPEAKER_00: and of course the spoofing has gotten so much more sophisticated in
42:19
SPEAKER_00: the last 10 years where you get an email and it looks like it's coming from fill in
42:27
SPEAKER_00: the name of your local power company or something.
42:29
SPEAKER_00: And you check the domain and it looks exactly like it.
42:33
SPEAKER_00: And the email,
42:34
SPEAKER_00: the graphical layout,
42:36
SPEAKER_00: the template, it is what you expect to see from your power company.
42:40
SPEAKER_00: But it's saying, we have a problem with your account.
42:42
SPEAKER_00: Can you please log in and verify this information?
42:45
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
42:47
SPEAKER_00: If I'm going to do that,
42:48
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to the internet and I'm going to type the domain in one character at
42:51
SPEAKER_00: a time with my 10 little fingers here and use my saved password that's validated
42:57
SPEAKER_00: and authenticated for that site, et cetera, and check to thing.
43:00
SPEAKER_00: And of course you can do that and you find there's no issue.
43:03
SPEAKER_00: So I have definitely seen the growing sophistication in
43:09
SPEAKER_00: the generically just call it spam emails and texts and whatnot.
43:13
SPEAKER_00: I've seen a lot of that.
43:16
SPEAKER_00: I have to assume, of course, I mean, there's nothing so special about me.
43:20
SPEAKER_00: They're not targeting me individually.
43:22
SPEAKER_00: It's my data along with however many thousands or tens or hundreds of thousands
43:26
SPEAKER_00: of other people from some hack that they've gotten enough information and
43:32
SPEAKER_00: a real email address or a real phone number.
43:34
SPEAKER_00: And then they're trying to A,
43:35
SPEAKER_00: see if there's a live human of any description on the other end and B,
43:38
SPEAKER_00: if it's me, if so, then they can try to manipulate and exploit.
43:45
SPEAKER_00: The volume of those things and the sophistication of those nowadays just leads
43:50
SPEAKER_00: to believe it must be AI powered at this point.
43:54
SPEAKER_00: And the frequency,
43:56
SPEAKER_00: I have pretty much all the messaging apps and there's one friend that Telegram is
44:01
SPEAKER_00: the way that's easy for us to do video calls and to send large files to each other.
44:06
SPEAKER_00: And about once or twice a week, I used to get some random text on Telegram from someone and
44:15
SPEAKER_00: Often the English shouldn't be very broken.
44:18
SPEAKER_00: Of course,
44:18
SPEAKER_00: we have tons of hackers in the States and there are plenty of English hackers
44:23
SPEAKER_00: and nefarious actors.
44:25
SPEAKER_00: But as big as the world is, a lot of these people aren't native English speakers.
44:28
SPEAKER_00: And so that used to be the big giveaway.
44:31
SPEAKER_00: The email you would get from
44:32
SPEAKER_00: the power company would have weird grammar misspellings back in the day.
44:35
SPEAKER_00: Now it looks perfect.
44:38
SPEAKER_00: But I used to get these texts occasionally maybe
44:41
SPEAKER_00: for you ladies it's different maybe they put like some handsome man's face on
44:45
SPEAKER_00: the avatar for guys it's always some objectively really attractive female face on
44:52
SPEAKER_00: the little avatar and they give her a name that sounds playful like candy no offense
44:57
SPEAKER_00: to the candies out there you have a playful name So it would be something
45:01
SPEAKER_00: that would be like an attempted come on to interest some guy who's in
45:04
SPEAKER_00: the Lonely Hearts Club and stupid to answer to open it in the first place.
45:10
SPEAKER_00: And so, of course, I just swipe left and deleted Marcus Spam in one go.
45:14
SPEAKER_00: Now, what I'm noticing is I'll get 10 or 20 of these things a day that will say
45:24
SPEAKER_00: the message will just be Brendan Davis,
45:26
SPEAKER_00: question mark, or is this Brendan Davis, question mark.
45:31
SPEAKER_00: Delete Spam, Delete Spam, Delete Spam.
45:33
SPEAKER_00: The volume that this is happening, and they're just cutting to the chase.
45:39
SPEAKER_00: They're targeting people.
45:41
SPEAKER_00: I had to reset about a month or so ago.
45:43
SPEAKER_00: I have two different monitoring services I use to track
45:47
SPEAKER_00: and make sure what's happening with my information.
45:50
SPEAKER_00: And I got one of the alerts that actually had a pretty comprehensive dossier on me.
45:54
SPEAKER_00: Email and password for my Apple ID account,
45:58
SPEAKER_00: which I mean, Most of my life is based around this account.
46:01
SPEAKER_00: And I already had 2FA enabled for that, of course.
46:06
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, so I had to go change that.
46:09
SPEAKER_00: And that was half an afternoon to update all the places that interface with that site.
46:13
SPEAKER_00: So yeah,
46:14
SPEAKER_00: I know it's happening,
46:15
SPEAKER_00: but the only proof I have is inference of just the sophistication and
46:20
SPEAKER_00: the frequency increasing such things.
46:24
SPEAKER_02: We don't have very many protections here in the US.
46:26
SPEAKER_02: We get data breaches on a regular basis.
46:28
SPEAKER_02: And when I talk to people outside the US, it seems like it's less of a problem there.
46:32
SPEAKER_02: Of course,
46:32
SPEAKER_02: you've got history here in the US,
46:34
SPEAKER_02: but with GDPR and some of the changes in California where they're trying to move
46:40
SPEAKER_02: a little more proactively.
46:41
SPEAKER_02: They've got a new law.
46:43
SPEAKER_02: One of my recent guests just told me that there's a new law in California
46:46
SPEAKER_02: that there's a way you can get your information taken out of the data brokers now.
46:50
SPEAKER_02: So there's some activity.
46:51
SPEAKER_02: I would imagine it feels different living in France than it did when you were living here.
46:57
SPEAKER_00: It really does.
46:58
SPEAKER_00: The GDPR environment is such that whenever I visit a site for the first time,
47:08
SPEAKER_00: on a given device.
47:08
SPEAKER_00: I might have visited on my laptop,
47:10
SPEAKER_00: but then I'm checking something happened to me on my phone and it's the first time
47:14
SPEAKER_00: on the phone that I've gone someplace.
47:16
SPEAKER_00: There's always the disclosure and the opt-in are out.
47:19
SPEAKER_00: And I don't know if this is true 100% of the time,
47:22
SPEAKER_00: but in my experience,
47:23
SPEAKER_00: this has been true,
47:24
SPEAKER_00: that you can just hit reject all and still you can use the site completely.
47:27
SPEAKER_00: For them to operate in the EU,
47:30
SPEAKER_00: it must be an open experience and they do not have a right to track you.
47:36
SPEAKER_00: Now, of course, am I naive?
47:38
SPEAKER_00: No.
47:38
SPEAKER_00: I was born the day before yesterday.
47:40
SPEAKER_00: So I don't assume that this really means anything except that they're making
47:44
SPEAKER_00: an effort and it's better than no effort.
47:47
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, it's really extensive.
47:48
SPEAKER_00: I see that particular precaution.
47:51
SPEAKER_00: There are a lot of sites that are freely available, most places that just are blocked here.
48:01
SPEAKER_00: I'm not unique as in one of one but I'm relatively unique in that I'm an American
48:06
SPEAKER_00: who also lived and worked extensively in China and now I live in Europe so I have
48:12
SPEAKER_00: the perspective of living on the other side of the Great Firewall
48:15
SPEAKER_00: and I first started engaging with China in 2010 and first started traveling in 2013
48:22
SPEAKER_00: and living part of the year there and then full-time for some years.
48:26
SPEAKER_00: But I've seen the evolution in China of the holes in the firewall.
48:31
SPEAKER_00: Basically the porticos and windows they had left got bricked up.
48:36
SPEAKER_00: And they actually actively combat VPN use, for instance.
48:41
SPEAKER_00: So it's really hard just to operate.
48:43
SPEAKER_00: Most of anyone that I know is really not up to anything per se.
48:47
SPEAKER_00: They just happened to have moved the people I know who still live over there.
48:50
SPEAKER_00: They haven't had a Gmail account.
48:51
SPEAKER_00: Well, now they all have a Hotmail or Yahoo account because Gmail is blocked.
48:56
SPEAKER_00: And of course, Google is blocked and your Google Maps don't work, things like that.
49:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
49:02
SPEAKER_00: So it's a very different perspective.
49:03
SPEAKER_00: I know what it's like to really have it locked down where you can't even really use
49:08
SPEAKER_00: the thing and you have to find workarounds.
49:11
SPEAKER_00: And, you know,
49:13
SPEAKER_00: I was introduced to the horrors of being at a certain point because that was
49:17
SPEAKER_00: the only Microsoft cut some deal with China and they were
49:21
SPEAKER_00: the approved foreigners web browser in search was being searched and using that.
49:27
SPEAKER_00: And I'm an Apple guy.
49:29
SPEAKER_00: This doesn't work for me.
49:31
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I'm kind of rambling, but that's my superpower.
49:34
SPEAKER_02: And it's an interesting context that a lot of people don't have.
49:37
SPEAKER_02: So I appreciate you sharing that story.
49:39
SPEAKER_02: So last question, and we've kind of alluded to it a little bit here.
49:43
SPEAKER_02: It sounds like you mostly trust Apple, at least maybe to a larger degree than other companies.
49:50
SPEAKER_02: I'm wondering as far as trust,
49:51
SPEAKER_02: we see a lot of public distrust has been growing because we're finding out more
49:55
SPEAKER_02: about what these companies are doing with our data
49:57
SPEAKER_02: and I think that's probably healthy distrust.
50:00
SPEAKER_02: But what does it take for you to say that you would trust a company,
50:05
SPEAKER_02: whether it's Apple or somebody else,
50:06
SPEAKER_02: that you would feel like you could trust them with your data and trust them
50:09
SPEAKER_02: to be transparent with you about how they were going to use it and basically being
50:15
SPEAKER_02: a company that you would feel comfortable with?
50:17
SPEAKER_02: What would it take or do you think that's not possible?
50:20
SPEAKER_00: I have opinions about this,
50:23
SPEAKER_00: which you're interviewing me and ask me the question,
50:25
SPEAKER_00: so I'm going to share, but it's complicated on one hand.
50:29
SPEAKER_00: On the other hand, it's very simple.
50:30
SPEAKER_00: I don't really think there's very much privacy.
50:34
SPEAKER_00: I have too many things to do in a given day than to worry too much more than I do
50:39
SPEAKER_00: and take any precautions I already take to try to protect said privacy.
50:44
SPEAKER_00: I work in a public-facing business, so me,
50:49
SPEAKER_00: my information, I mean,
50:51
SPEAKER_00: me being a guy who talks on camera and into a microphone is like a big part
50:55
SPEAKER_00: of my life for decades or the things I do getting,
51:00
SPEAKER_00: hopefully getting public attention.
51:01
SPEAKER_00: And therefore I talk about it sometimes.
51:03
SPEAKER_00: So I'm out there.
51:05
SPEAKER_00: It was a decision when we did the YouTube channel,
51:07
SPEAKER_00: the Shea Davis with me and my wife and about raising our daughter.
51:10
SPEAKER_00: Some people absolutely horrified that my daughter's on camera
51:15
SPEAKER_00: and other people have their kid on camera a hundred times more than we do.
51:19
SPEAKER_00: We don't blur our daughter's face.
51:21
SPEAKER_00: The camera's also not pointed at her.
51:22
SPEAKER_00: That's not the majority of the channel,
51:24
SPEAKER_00: but there are videos where it is about this cute kid thing
51:26
SPEAKER_00: or this thing regarding kids.
51:29
SPEAKER_00: But France takes that very seriously.
51:31
SPEAKER_00: Like I can't post photos.
51:33
SPEAKER_00: They're amazing,
51:33
SPEAKER_00: adorable photos we have and we share within the parents group on WhatsApp,
51:37
SPEAKER_00: but they can't go online.
51:39
SPEAKER_00: Of all the kids.
51:40
SPEAKER_00: Because in France, it is absolutely, it is no go.
51:44
SPEAKER_00: You have privacy.
51:46
SPEAKER_00: If I'm walking down the street, it's one thing if I'm in the background of someone's photo.
51:50
SPEAKER_00: And of course, Paris, tourist city.
51:52
SPEAKER_00: Tons of people are in photos they have no idea about.
51:55
SPEAKER_00: But you can't,
51:57
SPEAKER_00: without my permission, take a picture of me standing next to you and put it online.
52:01
SPEAKER_00: It's oversimplification and in practice, how does this work?
52:06
SPEAKER_00: I'm throwing out a few things related to this concept to answer your question to say
52:10
SPEAKER_00: that I think that horse left the barn a long time ago.
52:14
SPEAKER_00: You have companies out there like Palantir who are scraping this
52:17
SPEAKER_00: and every other utterance of every sentient being on planet Earth to try
52:22
SPEAKER_00: to weaponize,
52:22
SPEAKER_00: monetize,
52:24
SPEAKER_00: politicize,
52:24
SPEAKER_00: and incentivize actors good and bad and questionable to do something with it.
52:30
SPEAKER_00: I have no illusions that we really have any privacy,
52:33
SPEAKER_00: but in terms of making it easy for people, I take every step possible.
52:37
SPEAKER_00: I have the two factor authentication.
52:39
SPEAKER_00: I have the thing set up with Apple where I have to authenticate on a second device
52:44
SPEAKER_00: because Apple knows if me and my iPhone and my laptop are in
52:48
SPEAKER_00: the same proximate space,
52:51
SPEAKER_00: therefore I might be on the laptop,
52:52
SPEAKER_00: but I have to authenticate on the phone or vice versa.
52:55
SPEAKER_00: So it is what it is.
52:57
SPEAKER_00: I use crazy passwords I could never remember.
53:00
SPEAKER_00: The one password I have pretty well memorized is to the password manager.
53:05
SPEAKER_00: And I change that frequently enough.
53:07
SPEAKER_00: Those are the steps I take but I'm afraid that I don't have rose colored glasses
53:13
SPEAKER_00: in terms of our level of privacy in the first place.
53:16
SPEAKER_02: So is there any company that you trust
53:18
SPEAKER_02: or do you think that's just not your expectation in today's world?
53:22
SPEAKER_00: I trust Apple as much as I need to because I kind of have to.
53:26
SPEAKER_00: I have no illusions of the state of play at a corporate level in the year of our Lord, 2026.
53:38
SPEAKER_00: I don't think Apple is any better or more pure than fill in the blank company
53:43
SPEAKER_00: that you think is the most nefarious.
53:44
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I trust Apple because I have to, to be able to function and live the life I live.
53:51
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to have to pull out a credit card and reenter
53:56
SPEAKER_00: a number every single time I do a thing.
54:00
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to,
54:02
SPEAKER_00: there are only so many hours in a day and so I trust things such
54:07
SPEAKER_00: as it facilitates my life but I also don't just give over my agency I think that's
54:12
SPEAKER_00: the issue that we're going to have to face societally and listen to some
54:18
SPEAKER_00: of your other episodes and read a lot of the posts you've done specifically
54:22
SPEAKER_00: and obviously this is an issue that everybody touches on
54:25
SPEAKER_00: in their own way is what does it mean what is it to be human in a world of machines
54:29
SPEAKER_00: and I was a big reader of Philip K.
54:32
SPEAKER_00: Dick back in the day and Blade Runner came from a PK Dick short story
54:39
SPEAKER_00: and I've watched the Terminator when it was released and so I'm aware
54:44
SPEAKER_00: of how this goes bad and of course the people creating
54:48
SPEAKER_00: the modern tools I mean we actually have a Skynet now and
54:51
SPEAKER_00: if you know Terminator it's like okay you know the people working
54:54
SPEAKER_00: on those tech companies have also watched the same movies we have but so yeah
54:59
SPEAKER_00: in terms of privacy If the bad guys want to find me, they can do it.
55:05
SPEAKER_00: But I'm not going to make it easy on some kid with a laptop running chat GPT
55:11
SPEAKER_00: in his bedroom who's gotten on a data broker and got my information.
55:15
SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to make it easy for that kid to make my life more difficult than it is.
55:21
SPEAKER_02: Fair enough.
55:22
SPEAKER_02: Those are my standard questions.
55:23
SPEAKER_02: Is there anything else that you would like to share with our audience?
55:25
SPEAKER_02: I really appreciate you coming on the show today and sharing your stories.
55:29
SPEAKER_00: Well, thanks.
55:30
SPEAKER_00: I hope this has been a useful series of personal experiences and anecdotes to add to
55:36
SPEAKER_00: the great collection that you've been building already.
55:40
SPEAKER_00: I guess for me, I don't have anything that I'm selling per se, but I would love it.
55:45
SPEAKER_00: If anyone's interested to see anything I've done,
55:48
SPEAKER_00: I will give you the link that you can put in the show notes
55:52
SPEAKER_00: for my main YouTube channel.
55:54
SPEAKER_00: And specifically, I'm really proud of my film, The Unlining.
55:58
SPEAKER_00: It's a short film that I made in London,
56:01
SPEAKER_00: and that really is the driver of that YouTube channel now since it was released.
56:06
SPEAKER_00: It has almost 1.4 million views, thousands and thousands of comments.
56:11
SPEAKER_00: Extraordinarily overwhelmingly positive.
56:13
SPEAKER_00: And it's also the proof of concept for a feature, which is a UK project.
56:17
SPEAKER_00: I'm relocating it out of London to the Northeast for various creative reasons.
56:22
SPEAKER_00: But I would love it if people checked out my film, The Unwinding.
56:26
SPEAKER_00: I have these two YouTube channels.
56:29
SPEAKER_00: If you're interested in immigrant slash expat life of a multicultural family raising
56:35
SPEAKER_00: a kid in France,
56:36
SPEAKER_00: you can check out Shea Davis, which is C-H-E-Z-D-A-V-I-S-F-R on YouTube.
56:42
SPEAKER_00: Brendan K. Davis is the main channel, The Cinnamon Sound.
56:46
SPEAKER_00: And if you're interested in hearing the Bedroom Demo versus Suno interpretation
56:53
SPEAKER_00: of my new song,
56:54
SPEAKER_00: I will also give you that link to that YouTube video where I kind of break it down
56:58
SPEAKER_00: and share it all.
56:59
SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of fun.
57:00
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I appreciate the opportunity to meet you virtually and to chat with your audience.
57:08
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, my pleasure.
57:09
SPEAKER_02: And I think you had mentioned that you're looking for a partner, right?
57:12
SPEAKER_02: For one of your projects?
57:14
SPEAKER_00: Well thank you for reminding me that I am also if anyone listening
57:19
SPEAKER_00: or reading either is a film producer in France or the UK or knows one I am looking
57:30
SPEAKER_00: for accredited is the wrong word,
57:33
SPEAKER_00: but they have to be qualified according to certain metrics,
57:36
SPEAKER_00: depending on the country that makes them able to be the producer I need.
57:41
SPEAKER_00: But although I am a career producer who's going back to being a writer director,
57:46
SPEAKER_00: I cannot be the lead producer on either of these two main projects I've written
57:50
SPEAKER_00: to direct because I'm not French or I'm not British.
57:53
SPEAKER_00: So I am looking for qualified producers on both the France and the UK side of things
58:00
SPEAKER_00: for these dramatic feature films and or people connected to broadcast distribution,
58:08
SPEAKER_00: you know,
58:08
SPEAKER_00: anyone working in film and to a secondary degree television in France or the UK.
58:15
SPEAKER_00: Even if your job is not exactly the job of the person I need,
58:19
SPEAKER_00: I always like to meet such people and get to know them and make friends and try
58:24
SPEAKER_00: to learn something as well, because I'm sure their take would be really useful.
58:28
SPEAKER_00: So yes,
58:29
SPEAKER_00: if anyone reading or listening fits that description or they know someone who does,
58:34
SPEAKER_00: please holler at your boy over here in the suburbs.
58:38
SPEAKER_02: So what's the best way for someone to get in touch with you
58:40
SPEAKER_02: if they have someone interesting to connect you to?
58:43
SPEAKER_00: The easiest thing to do is to track me down on either of my webpages.
58:52
SPEAKER_00: There's a contact form there.
58:54
SPEAKER_00: My main domain is crazyinagoodway.com, which is a title that came to me a long time ago.
59:03
SPEAKER_00: If I ever write a memoir, that's what it's going to be called.
59:06
SPEAKER_00: But there's a contact page there also
59:08
SPEAKER_00: for my film production development company here in France.
59:12
SPEAKER_00: It's called Malkuth Film, which is M-A-L-K-U-T-H-F-I-M.com.
59:18
SPEAKER_00: There are contact forms on both of those websites.
59:21
SPEAKER_00: You can also visit my YouTube channels and leave a comment with your information
59:26
SPEAKER_00: and I can track you down.
59:28
SPEAKER_00: And I might as well give you my email, but I'm not going to.
59:31
SPEAKER_00: I might as well just tell the world my email because God knows everybody on
59:34
SPEAKER_00: the dark web seems to already have it, but I'll show some restraint.
59:38
SPEAKER_00: Yes, contact me those ways.
59:39
SPEAKER_00: You can also write to me on Substack and you'll be linking to my Substack.
59:43
SPEAKER_00: That's a good way to do it.
59:44
SPEAKER_00: Anyone reading on Substack can track me down and say hi via Substack.
59:49
SPEAKER_02: Sounds great.
59:50
SPEAKER_02: Well, Brendan,
59:50
SPEAKER_02: thank you so much for joining me for the call and have a great night and I'll be
59:54
SPEAKER_02: in touch.
59:55
SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Karen.
59:56
SPEAKER_00: It was a real pleasure.
59:57
SPEAKER_00: Have a good one there yourself.
59:59
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
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