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Therapy · A Really Good Podcast with Greg & Liz

0:00
SPEAKER_03: Give me fabric.
0:08
SPEAKER_02: Hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of a really good podcast with Greg and Liz.
0:12
SPEAKER_02: And today's episode is one of the rare occasions where I have prepared nothing.
0:16
SPEAKER_02: Greg is steering the ship, and we will see how it goes.
0:23
SPEAKER_01: I'm steering a ship.
0:24
SPEAKER_01: My emotions aren't steering the ship.
0:26
SPEAKER_02: No, and that's good because you've been in a whole a little bit of a hole, which was kind of the basis for this for this episode.
0:33
SPEAKER_02: You wanted to do another topic that we won't name, but I felt very nervous about.
0:40
SPEAKER_02: And I told it to multiple people, and they were like, nobody wants to hear you talk about that.
0:44
SPEAKER_01: No, I'm not saying you joke around about 9-11 right now.
0:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it was gonna be 9-11.
0:48
SPEAKER_02: Which we may still do.
0:49
SPEAKER_02: I do think we had some good ideas there, but it's interesting.
0:52
SPEAKER_02: It's interesting, but also as we posted about Jack, Greg's son, went to the Navy two weeks ago.
0:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, this is week three going into week three.
1:02
SPEAKER_02: Oh, you're already throwing the way there.
1:04
SPEAKER_02: Well, no, because today's like exactly two weeks since he got there.
1:07
SPEAKER_02: So it's nine weeks, right?
1:08
SPEAKER_01: It's nine weeks, yeah.
1:10
SPEAKER_02: And so Greg was struggling a little bit, and I said, Maybe we don't do the saddest topic of all time.
1:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, struggling is is like saying it lately too, because it's like I didn't think my God.
1:22
SPEAKER_01: So everyone's saying bye to Jack on the day he's like leaving, and I was doing so.
1:27
SPEAKER_01: I am kind of like stoic.
1:29
SPEAKER_01: My kids have never seen me cry.
1:31
SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm very like, you know, my well, not anymore.
1:37
SPEAKER_01: So I'll tell you what.
1:39
SPEAKER_01: So Jack's mom, his grandparents, everyone, like his little siblings are all like kind of just doing great the day he's leaving.
1:47
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like out of breath crying.
1:49
SPEAKER_01: Like out of breath.
1:50
SPEAKER_01: Like the night before he went to bed, the the littlest one, my five-year-old, has sensed something and just like laid on his lap and wouldn't leave his lap and just fell asleep on his lap.
2:01
SPEAKER_01: So right there, I'm like, I'm gonna go back.
2:03
SPEAKER_02: I know you put you actually posted a picture of that, and I teared up a little bit.
2:06
SPEAKER_01: It was horrific.
2:08
SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, cute, right?
2:09
SPEAKER_01: But the next day, I so like that night, like I put my hand on him when he was like, you know, sleeping, and like, God, he's fucking big and strong.
2:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I just put and I like literally put my head on him and like just cried and he was like sleeping.
2:23
SPEAKER_01: I was like, This is weird.
2:24
SPEAKER_02: No, this is that book with the mom who climbs in the window, I'll love you forever.
2:29
SPEAKER_01: Oh my god.
2:30
SPEAKER_01: And he's off, he's going off.
2:31
SPEAKER_01: And he's like so he's stoic, he's brave.
2:34
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, I just know that like in you don't want your kid to be scared, you don't want your kid to get yelled at, you don't like her to do all these things, but also to be this is a huge part of therapy.
2:43
SPEAKER_01: And we're this obviously, this this episode is going to be about therapy, but like for me, the way to live a good life is kind of stored in stories and myths and all these kinds of things.
2:53
SPEAKER_01: And it's like for Jack to go through something difficult, there there is no character without like adversity and like difficulty.
3:00
SPEAKER_01: So so this is required of him.
3:02
SPEAKER_01: And if I keep this from him, then I'm like keeping him from becoming who he's supposed to be.
3:06
SPEAKER_01: And I can't do those kinds of things.
3:07
SPEAKER_02: It's why you can't like interfere with your kids when like they're having issues with their friends, and like you try to call the parents and take it over, and it's like, no, I always am like, let's just let him deal with it until it gets to a point, you know, then you sometimes need to step in.
3:21
SPEAKER_02: But like you have to like they have to you think about them getting bullied and it's like horrifying, but it's like people have to be mean to you when you're a kid, or you're not gonna have any idea what the fuck to do when you're older.
3:31
SPEAKER_01: I know, or then one day your boss is gonna be mean to you and you're just gonna shit your pants at work.
3:34
SPEAKER_02: No, oh my god, my dad, I remember when I was in ninth grade, I had an English teacher who called me dumb in front of the whole class, and I was like, I gotta transfer out.
3:42
SPEAKER_02: And my dad's like, No, because you are one day gonna have a boss and you're not gonna be able to quit and you're gonna need to learn how to deal with it.
3:48
SPEAKER_02: And I remember when I went to Australia, I worked in this roadhouse for three months with this horrible man.
3:52
SPEAKER_02: He used to call us like dick bags and stuff, and he was like an Australian outback guy, so he could do whatever he wants.
3:57
SPEAKER_02: There was no like regulation.
3:59
SPEAKER_02: He would scream at me about soda placement, like he was awful.
4:02
SPEAKER_02: And I'm literally in this town, I'm three hours away from the local closest airport, and you have to get there on the mail truck, which only comes once a week.
4:11
SPEAKER_02: And I was like, oh my god, he was so right.
4:13
SPEAKER_02: And it's like that's it.
4:14
SPEAKER_01: Want to hear kind of a dirty joke, a dirty outback joke?
4:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
4:17
SPEAKER_01: So have you heard of an Australian kiss?
4:20
SPEAKER_01: No, it's the same as a French kiss, but down under.
4:25
SPEAKER_01: Right?
4:26
SPEAKER_02: Where did you hear that?
4:27
SPEAKER_01: I you know, Australia.
4:31
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, well, what are we talking about?
4:34
SPEAKER_01: So we're gonna talk about to me the most effective.
4:37
SPEAKER_01: So I happen to be in a unique spot where like I've done a lot, a ton of emergency medicine and I've done a ton of outpatient.
4:42
SPEAKER_01: But now I'm sort of in this place that's kind of in between where it's like the most acute patients see him for a week and really kind of like make this transition for them.
4:50
SPEAKER_01: And I'm kind of noticing Wait, not to be dumb.
4:53
SPEAKER_02: What's in the most acute patients mean?
4:56
SPEAKER_01: Well, so this isn't like you know, when you go to my my work that you've been to, where it's like, I'm anxious.
5:02
SPEAKER_01: My my my boss is being mean to me.
5:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know what I mean?
5:05
SPEAKER_01: Like things like that.
5:06
SPEAKER_01: I'm very anxious, uh, you know, maybe panic attacks, depression, all serious stuff, but not like you know, extreme, like like bipolar and schizophrenia, and like, you know, and not even not just that, like like really extreme depressions.
5:19
SPEAKER_01: Like, like I have patients who like you know lost someone really close.
5:23
SPEAKER_01: And I I don't even like mention it, like the most horrific things you can think of, a lot of trauma.
5:27
SPEAKER_01: The people who should just, you know, who are are need help, like some some pretty severe, like their their lives are interrupted from their mental health significantly, so where they can't work, where they can't get by a day-to-day basis.
5:39
SPEAKER_01: So they kind of need like some real intervention, and then they don't quite meet, or maybe they're just coming down from being an inpatient.
5:44
SPEAKER_01: So either it's like one way or the other, either they're coming down from inpatient or they don't quite meet criteria to be inpatient, but they need some like significant mental health help, right?
5:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's where I step in.
5:55
SPEAKER_01: To me, the biggest shift in therapy and something that well, let's we'll get there, but I I think like if people leave me sort of infinitely more concerned about what they do instead of how they feel, I've done my job.
6:11
SPEAKER_01: And not because I don't care about how they feel, I care very deeply about how people feel.
6:15
SPEAKER_01: But I know that if I can change their behavior, then I can start to change the way they think and change the way they feel, and or even not even have them worry so much and not be predominantly driven by the way they think or the way they feel.
6:25
SPEAKER_01: Because that's really ultimately, you are what you do, you are what you repeatedly do, and your life is kind of formed by your behavior and your choices, not so much your feelings and your thoughts.
6:35
SPEAKER_01: So for me, what happens in a session is when when someone comes to me for the first time, I'm kind of thinking like this, and I can even do it to you, right?
6:42
SPEAKER_01: So I would say something like, I would ask them if they're religious, because that's kind of important, not for any other reason than to kind of go with this scenario that I really like.
6:53
SPEAKER_01: So I would say if you say your prayers at night, or if they're not religious, if you wish upon a star, or if there's a genie or a fairy, whatever you want to believe, right?
7:01
SPEAKER_01: A shooting star, and you wish that this depression, this anxiety, whatever this thing is, that it's gone when you wake up, right?
7:08
SPEAKER_01: So you can even think about your own depression or your own anxiety, because we all have that.
7:12
SPEAKER_01: It's universal.
7:13
SPEAKER_01: And it's gone when you wake up.
7:14
SPEAKER_01: How would you notice?
7:15
SPEAKER_01: What would be the first thing you noticed?
7:17
SPEAKER_02: Oh, you're asking me?
7:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, what would be the first thing you'd notice?
7:20
SPEAKER_01: If you woke up and you had no anxiety, no depression, you were good to go, how would you notice?
7:24
SPEAKER_02: Probably you just feel like lighter, I I guess.
7:28
SPEAKER_01: No, that's perfect.
7:29
SPEAKER_01: You you walk right, like just that's about 90 to 95% of people will say, will start the sentence with like, well, I would feel like this.
7:38
SPEAKER_01: And I I I would feel like that, right?
7:40
SPEAKER_01: And so you're right away, you're kind of like seeking a feeling so that your life can shift.
7:44
SPEAKER_01: And I would say, all right, so now that you're feeling this way or not feeling this way, what would you do differently?
7:51
SPEAKER_01: Right.
7:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
7:52
SPEAKER_01: And so that would be the next thing I kind of want to know because people will say, like, I they would feel happy, right?
7:57
SPEAKER_01: A lot of times that's what I hear too.
7:58
SPEAKER_01: Like, I'll just be happy when I wake up.
8:00
SPEAKER_01: And it's like feeling happy is not something you can really move towards or obtain.
8:04
SPEAKER_01: It's just something that happens to you when like if you if you're saying I want to be happy, you're saying I'm not happy.
8:10
SPEAKER_01: So it's really about understanding what you would want to do or what you would start doing if you felt better, and starting to understand that by doing the things that you would do with this leap of faith, yeah, that like at one point it's gonna start making you feel better.
8:24
SPEAKER_01: Then that's what you got to do.
8:25
SPEAKER_01: And I and I kind of equate it to when you have COVID or if you've had COVID and lost your taste, you don't just stop eating buffalo chicken, right?
8:33
SPEAKER_01: You eat it and you eat it and you eat it within mind that someday I'm gonna keep doing these things and I'm gonna feel better and get to taste it again, right?
8:42
SPEAKER_01: And that's sort of what that's sort of it.
8:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, it's true.
8:45
SPEAKER_02: And also, if you want more thoughts on happiness, you can listen to our episode from earlier this season a couple months ago, being happy.
8:53
SPEAKER_02: Anyways, so you're basically trying to get people.
8:56
SPEAKER_02: So this is people more people.
8:58
SPEAKER_02: Let me ask you this.
8:59
SPEAKER_02: When you are in the emergency, because you work in the emergency room, right?
9:02
SPEAKER_01: I do work in the emergency room, yeah.
9:04
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, those people you're treating on like a one night basis.
9:07
SPEAKER_01: So in the emergency room, it's more like an assessment.
9:09
SPEAKER_01: I'm kind of trying to determine more if that person is dangerous, like if I get to put it in the middle of the case level of care they need.
9:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, or do I need to keep them, or am I is it okay to let them go?
9:19
SPEAKER_01: And if I can let them go, like what do I have to line them up with?
9:21
SPEAKER_01: That's the kind of thing.
9:22
SPEAKER_01: Like, like that's the call I'm making in the emergency room.
9:23
SPEAKER_01: And in the emergency room, I'm kind of all on my own making those decisions, which is great.
9:26
SPEAKER_02: So, like, what if you fuck up?
9:28
SPEAKER_02: I mean, you have the potential to like really fuck somebody up, huh?
9:32
SPEAKER_01: Well, you have the potential to like fuck up in a way where like you're putting someone, you're you're you're certifying someone or you're keeping them away from their families and away from their home and putting them in a really uncomfortable situation.
9:42
SPEAKER_01: Maybe, maybe you're doing that to them and that's fucking them up.
9:45
SPEAKER_01: Or if you if you let them go and you shouldn't, you might be fucking someone else up, you know?
9:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
9:50
SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of it's pressure.
9:51
SPEAKER_01: It's a lot of pressure, but like you, you kind of you just do the best you can.
9:56
SPEAKER_01: Another thing about this therapy thing, I like to start also with like a story.
10:01
SPEAKER_01: Like, say, say, like I I sort of make something up almost every time.
10:04
SPEAKER_01: Like today, I was talking about because this actually did happen.
10:07
SPEAKER_01: I was walking around Butler with a patient, and there was like a little bird, and it was walking instead of flying.
10:13
SPEAKER_01: And the patient I was with was like, Oh my god, that's so sad.
10:15
SPEAKER_01: Like you can't fly anymore.
10:17
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, you know, I'm a therapist, so I feel like, ooh, why is that so sad?
10:19
SPEAKER_01: And then they're like, because that bird doesn't get to be a bird anymore.
10:23
SPEAKER_01: And that like moment, so these these moments that I have with these people who are quote unquote sick, I learned so much from them because it's like, you know, when you're in the Navy, I've I've probably talked about this before, like the ships that sit in dry dock, they're in the water, they're in the same water that they're always in.
10:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but they decay like that when there's just sitting there, and and planes or your car when it's just on the ground and not moving, and you and it and you keep it like that for a while, they decay and they rot because that's not what planes are supposed to do.
10:49
SPEAKER_01: That's not what birds are supposed to do, that's not what ships are supposed to do, right?
10:52
SPEAKER_02: But like, would you say that you're looking at it like, oh, only if you can do what you're supposed to do, does that make you a bird?
11:00
SPEAKER_02: Like you're still a bird, even if you can't fly.
11:02
SPEAKER_01: Well, well, here's the thing.
11:04
SPEAKER_01: So if you if depression, anxiety, or mental illness is keeping you from doing the things that make you you, then how can you feel good?
11:10
SPEAKER_01: Right.
11:11
SPEAKER_01: So, like the way I the way I sort of phrase it to people, and this is true too, when I was going through it, I was almost positive that the the girl that I was I was committed to while I was in the navy was cheating on me.
11:22
SPEAKER_03: I don't think she lied later that she would actually cheat on me.
11:28
SPEAKER_01: So at the time, I wasn't really worried about well, I was really worried about it, and I was becoming unlike myself.
11:35
SPEAKER_01: I wasn't joking around, I wasn't getting up, I wasn't working out, I was staying in bed a little too long, I wasn't working hard.
11:39
SPEAKER_01: And this old sailor said, and this is the best advice that anybody can ever give you, because it cuts through everything.
11:45
SPEAKER_01: He said, if you can become someone you admire, it's hard to stay anxious and depressed.
11:50
SPEAKER_01: And that cuts through the way you're thinking, it cuts through the way you're feeling, and it cuts right to how am I behaving?
11:55
SPEAKER_01: And do I admire the way I'm behaving?
11:57
SPEAKER_01: And if I don't admire the way that I'm behaving, how can I expect to feel any better?
12:01
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
12:02
SPEAKER_01: Now that's now the leap of faith part, the the the part about the COVID that I mentioned, like keep eating the buffalo chicken until you taste it again.
12:09
SPEAKER_01: It's like once you start doing the things, all right, I'm going to the gym, I'm still sad.
12:13
SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm getting up on time, I'm still sad.
12:14
SPEAKER_01: I'm taking showers now, I'm brushing my teeth, but I'm still sad.
12:17
SPEAKER_01: It's like, well, let's keep doing this.
12:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:20
SPEAKER_01: And it might feel inauthentic, but is it more authentic to just crawl up into a hole and stay there?
12:25
SPEAKER_01: Like my father used to say this thing if you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.
12:29
SPEAKER_01: That's a huge mental health sort of perfect analogy, right?
12:32
SPEAKER_01: Like, what am I doing?
12:34
SPEAKER_01: That's that's sort of am I is there anything I'm doing or not doing that's contributing to the way I feel right now?
12:40
unknown: Yeah.
12:40
SPEAKER_01: And if I can take so depression and anxiety are almost like entities, they're gonna take things from you, they're gonna change the way you behave, and they're gonna like there's almost like an essence.
12:48
SPEAKER_01: They need certain things to remain like in your life.
12:51
SPEAKER_01: They need you to avoid anxiety, especially.
12:54
SPEAKER_01: They need you to uh, you know, stop being around people, they need you to not take care of yourself.
12:58
SPEAKER_01: And if you start doing the opposite of all these things, or start stop doing like it's hard to be uh remain depressed.
13:05
SPEAKER_01: It's hard for a depression to hit sort of a moving target if you commit to this idea that I'm going to become someone I admire, whether or not I feel good or not.
13:14
SPEAKER_01: It's almost like this hero's approach.
13:16
SPEAKER_01: A hero doesn't care how he feels or she feels, they just care about their actions and their values.
13:22
SPEAKER_01: And that's sort of something that's become really important in the world of therapy, identifying values and focusing more on behavior, then historically it's been a lot about the way you feel and the way you think.
13:32
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's what you were kind of mentioning before we even started this, you know, how therapy now has become yeah, it's become very pathology.
13:42
SPEAKER_02: Well, it's like trendy, you know.
13:44
SPEAKER_02: So it's like thanks to social media, you hear constantly about gaslighting and boundaries and triggers.
13:50
SPEAKER_02: And and I think there's a lot of validity to a lot of it.
13:53
SPEAKER_02: I I don't think that it's like all bullshit.
13:55
SPEAKER_02: I think that to an extent, a lot of it has been, you know, weaponized and used to just be a prick.
14:04
SPEAKER_02: Like the whole concept of I'm speaking my truth, and it's like you're almost like putting off your negative shit on other people and like not allowing them to like reciprocate or come back, you know?
14:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
14:16
SPEAKER_01: What the big thing that's that we're seeing too is like like there's this idea that we're kind of working on, and it's like this thing where it's like it's better to accept than to expect.
14:27
SPEAKER_01: So what when people are like constantly thinking about their thoughts and their emotions and their depression and how they feel, they wake up in the morning, they expect to feel a certain way, they expect to feel depressed, they expect this to not change.
14:38
SPEAKER_01: And if you if you're saying to yourself all the time, I don't think I'm ever gonna feel this way, I feel good again, I don't think I'm ever gonna get out of this, I think I'm gonna feel depressed forever, I think I'm always gonna be the anxious kind of person, your brain will find evidence of that.
14:48
SPEAKER_01: That's what it's designed to do.
14:49
SPEAKER_01: You're giving it an aim and it finds the pathway to it.
14:51
SPEAKER_01: And I tell this like really interesting story about this guy I knew, and this is a true story, and it really highlights this concept that whatever you expect your life to be, or however you expect to feel, is how you'll feel.
15:04
SPEAKER_01: But before I get into that, it's like there's this thing called the blue dot effect.
15:06
SPEAKER_01: And Harvard, they did this study where they had this screen and it's all blue dots, and there's some like purple dots and green dots, but they're all like relatively blue.
15:15
SPEAKER_01: And they would ask a bunch of people, how many blue dots do you see?
15:18
SPEAKER_01: And there's 10 objectively blue dots.
15:20
SPEAKER_01: So they say 10.
15:21
SPEAKER_01: But that number keeps changing and it keeps going lower and lower and lower.
15:24
SPEAKER_01: And they ask the people over and over and over again.
15:26
SPEAKER_01: And when there's only three blue dots less left, they ask them again, how many blue dots do you see?
15:30
SPEAKER_01: And they always say 10 because they're expecting to see 10.
15:33
SPEAKER_01: So they see 10.
15:34
SPEAKER_01: And they do they do the same thing with like people's faces.
15:36
SPEAKER_01: They make a bunch of mean faces, make 10 mean faces, and then they get rid of like six of them.
15:41
SPEAKER_01: And now it's just like the definition of what a mean face is kind of changes, and they always see 10 because they kind of like distort the definition.
15:49
SPEAKER_01: So all that to say this quick story.
15:51
SPEAKER_01: This guy I knew never got a good grade in his life, all the way till 11th grade, not one good grade, weird grades, like eyes and like you know, grades that don't really exist.
16:00
SPEAKER_01: I only I can kind of identify with that, but whatever.
16:02
SPEAKER_02: Eyes, yeah, like incomplete and like like he didn't even bother showing up.
16:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like like real bad, like that.
16:09
SPEAKER_01: So he expected that he was never gonna get a good girl, a girlfriend, or have any money, or have a nice car, or have no, and and like if he expected that, it's showing up.
16:18
SPEAKER_01: Like that's what's gonna happen.
16:19
SPEAKER_01: Like evidence of that was showing up.
16:21
SPEAKER_01: But then all of a sudden he takes the SATs and you got like a 1600, he got like almost perfect, right?
16:25
SPEAKER_01: So now he expects that you know, maybe these teachers are wrong.
16:29
SPEAKER_01: Maybe there's something about me that's special.
16:31
SPEAKER_01: Maybe I will get that girlfriend, maybe I will get that beautiful car, that beautiful house, whatever it is.
16:35
SPEAKER_01: And he expects that because he's smart, he's going to find that path.
16:39
SPEAKER_01: And he did.
16:40
SPEAKER_01: He went to college, he went to actually C CRI, then he went to four-year college, then he went to medical school, and now he's a doctor in the Yach.
16:47
SPEAKER_02: Well, I mean, like also there's also the factor of having confidence is really hot in a man.
16:51
SPEAKER_02: So, like, you know, if he's walking around like I'm never gonna get a girlfriend, like, yeah, I mean, who wants to sign up for the city?
16:56
SPEAKER_01: But so, so but that's just that's just it though, right?
16:59
SPEAKER_01: But here's the thing about him, and why you're right with your point with like for confidence, because about 10 years ago, the Department of Education was compelled by law to tell him that they had provided him with the wrong SAT scores.
17:11
unknown: Oh my god.
17:13
SPEAKER_01: So because he expected that his life was going to change.
17:18
SPEAKER_02: How long after the fact?
17:20
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it was literally like 10 years after the fact.
17:22
SPEAKER_02: It was 10 years later, they told reached out and said, like, actually, you got like a compelled by law.
17:27
SPEAKER_02: An 1190.
17:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, compelled by law.
17:30
SPEAKER_02: So it's like it's it's just this weird thing where it's like, if you really believe he changed the course of his whole life, he didn't need the 1600.
17:39
SPEAKER_01: No, he needed to see a future that he could orient himself in that was worthwhile, and then his brain would conspire with him to find it.
17:47
SPEAKER_01: That's why, like, yeah, the possibility of a dream coming true.
17:50
SPEAKER_01: People have known this for centuries.
17:51
SPEAKER_01: I mean, millennia.
17:52
SPEAKER_01: Pandora's box is literally about this idea where like this woman, eerily similar to Adam and Eve, it has is tempted to not open this thing.
18:01
SPEAKER_01: She opens it up and out come to all these like depression, fear, anxiety, wrath, anger, all these horrible things in the world.
18:07
SPEAKER_01: And she hurries up and puts the cap back on because it was a jar, it wasn't Pandora's box, whatever.
18:12
SPEAKER_03: What?
18:13
SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, I know.
18:14
SPEAKER_01: A little fun fact there.
18:16
SPEAKER_01: So, but when she put the top on, the only remaining entity was hope, which is to suggest that, yeah, there's all this shit in the world, but to live a meaningful life is to pay attention to the right sort of things and hope and see.
18:27
SPEAKER_01: I had a patient say to me once, because I'm like having these like sort of conversations about this concept, and he said, So you're saying that living a meaningful life is like being in a flea market?
18:38
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I'm not really sure what you're talking about.
18:40
SPEAKER_01: And he's like, Well, you have to accept that there's a ton of shit, and you can't get hung up on this shit.
18:45
SPEAKER_01: You have to like move through it and just pick something, right?
18:48
SPEAKER_01: Find what's good.
18:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, find and you have to pick something, and that's exactly Liz.
18:52
SPEAKER_01: That's a profound sort of it really is.
18:56
SPEAKER_01: That's that's the key.
18:57
SPEAKER_01: You do have to pick something because there's an infinite amount of choice, and choice is what creates anxiety.
19:02
SPEAKER_02: Oh my god, I say this all the time with my brides when they're planning their weddings.
19:07
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, listen, there's a thousand dresses out there that would look great on you.
19:10
SPEAKER_02: You just gotta pick one, and you have to accept that it's probably not the best one, but like you're just it's fine.
19:15
SPEAKER_02: But I was thinking when you were talking about the thing before about like the confidence and everything.
19:20
SPEAKER_02: Isn't that kind of what the secret was?
19:22
SPEAKER_02: Remember the secret?
19:23
SPEAKER_01: I don't know about the secret.
19:24
SPEAKER_02: You don't know about this.
19:25
SPEAKER_02: Oh my god, you know what?
19:25
SPEAKER_02: I think I have the book.
19:27
SPEAKER_02: I think I got it at like a like a flea market or something like that.
19:30
SPEAKER_02: But I'm pretty sure it's like the secret is that you basically say, like, I'm going to do this.
19:35
SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna you like put it out into the universe.
19:37
SPEAKER_02: But I don't know, because that doesn't seem like a great secret.
19:40
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't seem like a huge secret.
19:42
SPEAKER_01: It's and it's not even about saying it or like manifesting or whatever, it's about actually picking a goal and moving towards it.
19:50
SPEAKER_01: Not that it's that important to like sort of reach that specific goal.
19:54
SPEAKER_01: Like, think about yourself for a second, right?
19:56
SPEAKER_01: You say so, and me too.
19:57
SPEAKER_01: We've both we've had like wild career changes.
20:00
SPEAKER_01: So I my goal wasn't initially to be a therapist, my goal was to be something else.
20:04
SPEAKER_01: So like I wanted to do something within the military, I wanted to like you know be in that world, and I did that, and moving towards that goal, I'm moving towards something, but it doesn't necessarily mean that like my ultimate goal of being like an admiral or whatever, like that wasn't necessarily my path.
20:19
SPEAKER_01: But because I started moving towards that, I found my path because I was like, oh, this isn't it.
20:23
SPEAKER_01: I'm actually running into some situations that maybe cause me like a weird feeling, anxiety, sort of panic, whatever.
20:30
SPEAKER_01: Maybe I should like figure out what this is, and if I find a way to fix this, maybe I can do this for other people.
20:34
SPEAKER_01: And then you you just have to be moving through life, yeah.
20:37
SPEAKER_01: And the and that's what we're trying to like get people to do.
20:40
SPEAKER_01: Like, stop being stuck, which sounds easier than stop being stuck.
20:46
SPEAKER_01: That's very like pull up your bootstraps.
20:49
SPEAKER_01: I well, it's like but but you know, in a way it is, but what's the alternative?
20:53
SPEAKER_02: I know.
20:54
SPEAKER_02: I think that there is like a middle ground between I I think we've swung the pendulum, is has swung so far.
21:01
SPEAKER_02: I was thinking it's funny that when we were growing up, it was like you went to therapy if there was something wrong with you.
21:08
SPEAKER_02: And now this it's mindset of like there's something wrong with you if you're not going to therapy.
21:12
SPEAKER_02: Like everybody should be going to therapy, which I gotta be honest, I hated it.
21:17
SPEAKER_02: I tried it for a brief while, but I just don't really like talking about things.
21:23
SPEAKER_01: So it's like different for everybody, right?
21:25
SPEAKER_01: You gotta maybe gotta find the right person.
21:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and she was young too.
21:28
SPEAKER_02: She was like younger than me by like a good decade.
21:32
SPEAKER_02: And I was like, I don't feel like you can really I felt like I was just going there and just complaining for an hour.
21:37
SPEAKER_02: I wouldn't feel like I was getting anything in return.
21:40
SPEAKER_02: So it was like I was getting like wicked anxious going there, and I was like, I shouldn't be getting it if this is giving me anxiety.
21:47
SPEAKER_02: I should probably just quit it.
21:48
SPEAKER_02: It was like I don't, I don't know.
21:50
SPEAKER_02: I but there are other kinds of therapy where you don't have to like rehash all of your entire life, right?
21:56
SPEAKER_01: No, because like, yeah, of course.
21:57
SPEAKER_01: So, like here's for me, there's a couple of ways.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: Looking at therapy in this couple approaches.
22:02
SPEAKER_01: Like one being, like if you were to get an Uber right now, you don't they don't need to know where you were, they just need to know where you need to go.
22:08
SPEAKER_01: And for for some people, that's great, right?
22:10
SPEAKER_01: That's sort of perfect.
22:11
SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, I and then I kind of like make another analogy or like a metaphor where like some people are like a tangled up fishing line and they can only get so far until you kind of go back and try to like untangle some of this stuff.
22:23
SPEAKER_01: And that's that's with some of like the trauma-focused therapies.
22:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because uh because a lot of times like your behavior, you you behave a certain way.
22:30
SPEAKER_01: Your behaviors used to be adaptive or they used to be necessary and helpful.
22:35
SPEAKER_01: And now that your life is completely changed, you don't have to like live this protective lifestyle, and you may not even realize that it's almost like you're wearing armor and it was useful when you were in the war, right?
22:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like when you're in that traumatic situation.
22:48
SPEAKER_01: But now that you're just hanging out with your friends and trying to live a meaningful life and meet people, you're still clanking around in that armor.
22:53
SPEAKER_01: It's not it's not doing you any favors anymore, right?
22:55
SPEAKER_01: You gotta take it off and like become vulnerable again because becoming vulnerable is is like this this it's scary, it takes strength, but it's also necessary to get close to people, I think.
23:06
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I don't know.
23:08
SPEAKER_02: I mean, like, I feel like I'm doing okay.
23:10
SPEAKER_01: You're doing fine, you're doing completely fine.
23:13
SPEAKER_01: So, but you you're you're you're in this interesting situation where like, yeah, first of all, I wouldn't be able to feel comfortable talking to a therapist that's younger than me either, unless they were like they would really have to do that.
23:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like she didn't have kids.
23:23
SPEAKER_02: I don't even think she was married.
23:24
SPEAKER_02: It was like this.
23:25
SPEAKER_02: This is not the right one, yeah, right?
23:27
SPEAKER_02: You there has to be some kind of I know.
23:30
SPEAKER_02: I'm sure I mean I love talking, so like I'm sure it wasn't like that.
23:33
SPEAKER_02: I just like I like I have my best friend I talk to on the phone every morning, and we talk about everything.
23:38
SPEAKER_02: So, like well then there you go.
23:40
SPEAKER_01: Not everybody needs therapy.
23:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's the other thing.
23:44
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes you just need someone on the other line to be like, yeah, fuck that.
23:48
SPEAKER_01: And some people don't have someone where they can just kind of be like, I'm gonna talk, talk.
23:53
SPEAKER_01: I gotta take this off my chest, or I need to talk about myself for an hour without someone.
23:57
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and like we we get into it too.
23:59
SPEAKER_02: It was funny.
23:59
SPEAKER_02: There was a video from like the 80s, and it was these two women, and this one woman called the other, and she was like, Amy, it's Maureen, and she just like was like launched into this hole, and I'm just doing this and this, and it was like everything was terrible.
24:12
SPEAKER_02: So whenever we call each other and and we're like having a bad morning, we'll be like, hi, Amy.
24:17
SPEAKER_02: So like we know that, like, you know, if we need to get stuff out, but yeah, I don't know.
24:21
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I'm not opposed to it, it's just I don't know.
24:24
SPEAKER_02: I don't have a lot of free time to do stuff like that.
24:27
SPEAKER_02: I'd have to get a babysitter, like, I don't know.
24:29
SPEAKER_02: That's too much.
24:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, look, it's it's it's not for everyone, but I think that like it can be, I'm glad it's there because it can be really transformative for people.
24:39
SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, no, and most of my friends that do it like love it.
24:42
SPEAKER_02: You know what I would love to do?
24:43
SPEAKER_02: I'd love to go to like a month-long retreat and like really just hash it all out, get it all out there, use the phone, detox, no phone, no like nothing, just drinking water and exercising and talking, like that's what I think would be beneficial for me.
25:00
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, me too.
25:01
SPEAKER_02: Knock it all out of the park in a couple days.
25:04
SPEAKER_01: Hey, that's what that's basically like what what we're doing in the partial program, though.
25:08
SPEAKER_01: It's like it's like five to seven days, full day, you know, it's like like almost like a school, school day.
25:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and just kind of hashing it out.
25:16
SPEAKER_01: And it's it's kind of great.
25:18
SPEAKER_01: I really believe in it.
25:19
SPEAKER_01: I that's for sure.
25:20
SPEAKER_01: Like, I really believe that the once a week, once every like once every you know, a couple times a month therapy is is good for some people, but sometimes people need to just kind of really get in there and yeah and kind of work it out for like spend some time on it, yeah.
25:36
SPEAKER_01: So you had some questions about like what CBT, DBT, ECT.
25:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, I the EM is it EMDR?
25:42
SPEAKER_01: EMDR is having a little bit of a moment, yeah.
25:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, what what is that?
25:46
SPEAKER_02: Because it's like eye movements and stuff, right?
25:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so EMDR is essentially what you're doing is engaging, re-engaging the and you know, I'm not obviously not an expert in EMDR.
25:59
SPEAKER_01: I did do an episode of it the other podcast, but it's a trauma therapy and like bilateral stimulation, where like the idea is so you're you're revisiting a traumatic event and you're re in a sense re-traumate re-traumatizing yourself in a safe way.
26:16
SPEAKER_01: So think about it like if you fell off your bike, right?
26:18
SPEAKER_01: And you I don't know, like like you like scraped your knee, and then you get all that gunk in your uh your cut and you just put a band-aid on it and go about your life.
26:26
SPEAKER_01: That's not great.
26:27
SPEAKER_01: What what EMDR is aiming to do is kind of take that band-aid back off again.
26:32
SPEAKER_01: So it's like you're almost in a sense not fully re-entering a traumatic state, but like you're you're revisiting the trauma, cleaning it out and allowing, giving yourself that chance to heal the right way properly.
26:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
26:43
SPEAKER_01: And you do that by like, so when a trauma happens, when something scary happens, your the more antiquated part of your brains take over.
26:50
SPEAKER_01: So like it's like the fight or flight, the sympathetic nervous system.
26:53
SPEAKER_01: You get the hell out of the way if you're about to get hit by a car, or if someone comes in your house, you're not thinking about what to do next, you're just automatically reacting.
27:00
SPEAKER_01: So you're so your the frontal part of your brain, the thinking part of your brain, the analytical part of your brain is disengaged.
27:06
SPEAKER_01: So that's what happens when a trauma.
27:07
SPEAKER_01: That's why, like sometimes if someone experiences a trauma or has like a panic disorder, they like walk into a room or they go to the grocery store or they they panic and they get really nervous about things that they really shouldn't get nervous about anymore.
27:19
SPEAKER_01: Like they're kind of hyper-vigilant, they're like always scared.
27:22
SPEAKER_01: And that's because the world can become kind of a dangerous place to them.
27:24
SPEAKER_01: And that's because there's stimuli that they're not even aware of that the back of their brain kind of senses and notices back from a trauma or a dangerous event.
27:33
SPEAKER_01: And they sort of kind of getting you to leave or flee or get away from the situation, even though there's no real danger in the situation.
27:41
SPEAKER_01: So what you have to do is kind of retrain your brain to say, like, hey, look, this isn't dangerous.
27:46
SPEAKER_01: I I can handle this.
27:48
SPEAKER_01: And it's like, so I'm gonna have to I have to learn that trauma again in a more safe and sort of adaptive way.
27:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
27:56
SPEAKER_01: And there's different ways to do it.
27:57
SPEAKER_01: Some people use lights, some people use tapping, some people use uh it's it's all kind of it's all kind of different, but it's got some really good sort of evidence.
28:05
SPEAKER_02: Somebody that I know was doing it, and they said it was kind of like because they were the kind of person that doesn't want to like rehash all of their shit.
28:14
SPEAKER_02: So you don't have to talk about it.
28:15
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
28:15
SPEAKER_01: All you have to do is sort of so with a typical, like if you're talking like a trauma CBT or like a narrative therapy, you're kind of like going back into the story and retelling the story.
28:24
SPEAKER_01: So all all you're sort of required there to do is kind of go there emotionally, feel the emotions, or go there in your mind.
28:30
SPEAKER_01: You don't really have to talk about it.
28:32
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
28:32
SPEAKER_01: Right?
28:33
SPEAKER_01: And it's not asking a lot to go there in your mind because you know, you're probably there in your mind quite a bit.
28:37
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
28:37
SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
28:38
SPEAKER_01: And that's why you're there, you know?
28:39
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
28:40
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, no, I just thought it was interesting and I didn't really get it.
28:43
SPEAKER_02: So, how about well, now you can walk me through a therapy session.
28:47
SPEAKER_01: Oh, well, I mean, is we kind of we're kind of doing that, but I so I'm gonna want to know, you know, like where you were, where you are, where you want to be, and like what's getting in the way.
28:58
SPEAKER_01: And I I think that's essentially what's going on in a therapy session.
29:01
SPEAKER_01: I'll I'll always kind of start it off at like those, like I talked about before, like a story or like I want to know your expectations of therapy too.
29:09
SPEAKER_01: Like that's important.
29:10
SPEAKER_01: Because a lot of times people just be like, I want to feel better.
29:12
SPEAKER_01: And that's a pretty vague thing.
29:13
SPEAKER_01: Like, how would you even know when you feel better?
29:15
SPEAKER_01: It's that bar is always gonna move, right?
29:17
SPEAKER_01: So it's like, what would you like to start re-engaging in?
29:20
SPEAKER_01: Like, if you could see yourself, if this has been successful, like what are we doing differently in like two months?
29:25
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
29:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like that, those kinds of goals.
29:28
SPEAKER_01: But and then there's a few different ways that we sort of get there.
29:32
SPEAKER_01: And the main sort of approaches now are like CBT, DBT, and ACT.
29:37
SPEAKER_01: And are you interested in those at all?
29:39
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
29:40
SPEAKER_01: I think CBT is uh CBT is like wildly you must have heard of CBT, yeah.
29:44
SPEAKER_01: Okay, actually.
29:45
SPEAKER_02: Cognitive behavioral therapy, right?
29:48
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
29:49
SPEAKER_01: So uh essentially so cognitive, they mean the way you're thinking, behaviors and behaviors and sort of like uh working with those two things to kind of improve mood overall.
30:01
SPEAKER_01: So for an example, like the idea with CBT is like if you change the way you think, you change the way you feel.
30:05
SPEAKER_01: I know that's kind of like vague, but if you think about think about it more like the stories you tell yourself and like how different those can make you feel.
30:13
SPEAKER_01: Like imagine if you're in bed and the window rattles a little bit.
30:17
SPEAKER_01: Like, what are you gonna think?
30:18
SPEAKER_01: That it's the wind.
30:19
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so that's a very so for my what I would think is and so the so this isn't perfect, right?
30:24
SPEAKER_01: Because we have like two very different sort of thoughts.
30:28
SPEAKER_01: I'm thinking there's an intruder, and if I don't get up and do something, my family's gonna get murdered.
30:32
SPEAKER_01: So there's there's an incident, there's an event, right?
30:36
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, like I'm on the second floor, so it would have to be like a Dementor to like come back.
30:40
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like a floor or like or like uh Buffy the vampire slayer.
30:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like I'm not, I mean, that's a whole different situation.
30:47
SPEAKER_01: But you can see how like a window rattling is just an arbitrary event.
30:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the way you think about it, you're probably gonna fall right back asleep.
30:55
SPEAKER_01: The way I think about it, I'm like looking for a weapon.
30:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I can I can go there too.
31:00
SPEAKER_02: Like when I watch TV in the living room, the window is right in front of me.
31:05
SPEAKER_02: And I think that sometimes, like, what if somebody just walked up to the window and Tucker thinks that's so weird?
31:10
SPEAKER_02: I was like, why is that weird?
31:11
SPEAKER_02: I was like, just like what if they walked up and we're like, hi, is Tamara home?
31:16
SPEAKER_01: You know, like yeah, no, it's it's I you know what I know what I like to talk to people about when I'm like approaching CBT with them it's like urban legends, like those are stories that change people's behavior.
31:28
SPEAKER_01: They're designed to change your behavior, and they're just stories, they're just supposed to like change the way you think.
31:32
SPEAKER_01: And like, sort of like there's a different couple of different things.
31:34
SPEAKER_01: One is when it comes to CBT, one behavioral approach is like it's this idea called behavioral activation, and it's pretty on the nose, but it's like you think that like so.
31:45
SPEAKER_01: Say you haven't been going to the gym, you haven't been doing the things that you normally do, you haven't been hanging out with your friends, you haven't you, and you're saying to yourself, like, oh, I'm gonna wait for my mood to improve, then I'm gonna start doing these things again.
31:53
SPEAKER_01: But the reality is you got to start doing those things again, and then you improve.
31:56
SPEAKER_01: So we kind of like create a behavioral plan with them.
31:58
SPEAKER_01: It's it's called like a functional analysis where it's like, let's look at like what's going on, let's look at your behaviors, and let's look at your goals.
32:06
SPEAKER_01: Are these behaviors and the way you're thinking about them, are they getting you closer or further from your goals?
32:10
SPEAKER_01: And like, so what do we have to do to kind of it's like really mapping it out?
32:13
SPEAKER_01: And I I think that like CBT can be really useful, but I the the pitfall with CBT is so it's based on the idea that like we have these cognitive distortions, we think a certain way, and you know, it's all or nothing thinking or like mind reading.
32:28
SPEAKER_01: So, like, say like you you have a friend who hasn't called you in a week, and you're like, ooh, like what is she pissed at me for?
32:33
SPEAKER_01: Now I'm pissed at her, right?
32:34
SPEAKER_01: Like you're mind reading, you're coming to you're jumping to conclusions, all these sorts of things that we do as human beings, probably in a protective way, but because we think this way, it kind of there's there's no evidence in a kind of like CBT screen to try to challenge those negative thoughts.
32:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, challenge even limiting beliefs that you might have about yourself, and like try to make those more realistic and evidence-based and less sort of based on emotion.
32:58
SPEAKER_02: Don't hurt your own feelings.
32:59
SPEAKER_01: Like, don't hurt your own feelings, be a good friend of yourself.
33:02
SPEAKER_01: And then, but but I think the more friendly or the better approach to therapy nowadays is something called act.
33:11
SPEAKER_01: So act and dbt, that's another very popular form.
33:14
SPEAKER_01: DBT is more emotions-based.
33:16
SPEAKER_01: It's used for a lot of like suicidality, it's used for a lot of personality disorder, borderline personality disorder, non-suicidal self-injuries, so like self-injurious behavior, things like where like urge control and mindfulness and things radical acceptance are are super useful.
33:33
SPEAKER_01: But for me, ACT is right now the most useful because what it does is accepts that we all have these messed up thoughts and behaviors, but it focuses more on values and identifying values and figuring out what you want from your life or what you want to be doing and diffusing those thoughts.
33:52
SPEAKER_01: So instead of challenging and like living with those thoughts and being like, well, I don't really feel this way, or what if I challenge this thought?
33:57
SPEAKER_01: What is the evidence for that?
33:58
SPEAKER_01: It's spending a lot of time with thoughts that don't really make a lot of that it's kind of useless, right?
34:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
34:03
SPEAKER_01: So instead of say just sometimes it's kind of like saying to yourself, I have shitty thoughts.
34:07
SPEAKER_01: And there's all different kinds of ways to diffuse thoughts, and we would go through like a bunch of interventions, there's a lot of metaphors and things like that.
34:14
SPEAKER_01: But really, it is about just accepting that your thoughts aren't perfect and they're never going to be perfect.
34:19
SPEAKER_01: And if you're always trying to fix your thoughts or the your emotions, then you're gonna be spending a lot of time focusing on mental illness and not it's like get out of your you know that song that's like get out of my dreams and get into my car.
34:32
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, duh.
34:33
SPEAKER_02: We just did it on the 80 Summer Bangers.
34:35
SPEAKER_01: Right.
34:36
SPEAKER_01: So if you think of it, well, maybe that's why that's in my head.
34:38
SPEAKER_01: Act would be like, get out of your mind and get into your life.
34:42
SPEAKER_02: Okay, look at that.
34:43
SPEAKER_01: That's not bad.
34:44
SPEAKER_02: That that was a really good, that was a really good quote.
34:47
SPEAKER_01: But it's true, and that's what it's about.
34:49
SPEAKER_01: It's because it's really like we live out, like this is where the world is happening.
34:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Aristotle has the greatest quote ever.
34:54
SPEAKER_01: He says, You are what you repeatedly do, and that's a great sort of explanation for identity.
35:00
SPEAKER_01: You aren't the way you're feeling, you aren't the way you're thinking, you are what you're doing.
35:03
SPEAKER_01: So are you comfortable with the things that you're doing?
35:05
SPEAKER_01: And if not, something needs to change.
35:07
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you're right.
35:08
SPEAKER_02: Taking this personally, I'm applying it to my own life right now.
35:14
SPEAKER_01: Don't don't take it personally.
35:16
SPEAKER_02: No, no, I mean I mean, like, I what I'm more saying is like it's very universal, you know.
35:22
SPEAKER_02: You don't even need to specifically be talking to me for me to like be able to put my own situation into it.
35:29
SPEAKER_02: And I feel like that's what everybody does.
35:31
SPEAKER_02: That's why I think it's gotten so popular on like TikTok and Instagram and everything that these therapists are going on, because it could be the most obscure thing, but you can twist it into the narrative that it's like about your life, you know.
35:42
SPEAKER_02: So there's a lot of benefits in it.
35:44
SPEAKER_02: And I I don't want you to think that I was hating on it.
35:46
SPEAKER_02: I wasn't.
35:47
SPEAKER_02: I just I don't think that at all.
35:48
SPEAKER_02: It's it's I don't think that at all.
35:50
SPEAKER_01: And that have so many if the people are interested in stuff, I have so many like little interventions that I created that I think have been well.
35:57
SPEAKER_01: I like to think you should write a book.
35:59
SPEAKER_01: Well, I did.
36:01
SPEAKER_01: I wrote two kids' books, and yeah, but I mean, like a they stink.
36:05
SPEAKER_02: No, they don't.
36:06
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, right.
36:07
SPEAKER_02: I I think I have one of them.
36:08
SPEAKER_02: I think you gave one of them to one of my kids.
36:10
SPEAKER_02: I probably did.
36:11
SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure you've read it.
36:12
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, it's a kid's book.
36:13
SPEAKER_02: Like you want it, do you want to read one?
36:15
SPEAKER_02: Literally, it was just reading a book that's duck says moo, and the entire thing is the duck is mooing every time someone at peace.
36:21
SPEAKER_01: They get away with this stuff, right?
36:22
SPEAKER_01: And sometimes that's the genius, like the night moon.
36:25
SPEAKER_02: It's genius, and there's like there's nothing to there's nothing to the only my favorite kids' book is The Little Blue Truck.
36:32
SPEAKER_02: Did you ever have that one?
36:33
SPEAKER_01: No.
36:33
SPEAKER_02: Oh my god, it's amazing because it rhymes really well.
36:37
SPEAKER_02: So you can make I made up a little song that I like sing it the whole thing, and it's it's a great one.
36:43
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, overall, I mean the bar's low, so I'm sure you're you want to hear uh well, there's a there's a book that in inspired an intervention that I used, and it's a children's book.
36:54
SPEAKER_01: You know the guy who wrote the bear and the the hungry caterpillar?
36:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
36:59
SPEAKER_01: So he wrote one about what is that?
37:02
SPEAKER_01: Oh, so he wrote one about a hermit crab.
37:04
SPEAKER_01: And so I always like sometimes when I'm like running a group or something like that, I might say, like, my sister and I, when we were young, we used to hunt or you know, gather or or search for hermit crabs, right?
37:17
SPEAKER_02: Digging.
37:18
SPEAKER_01: And I and I will tell you, you know, and and so you but you kind of like play it like this is like oh, this is the first time I'm telling a story, it just occurred to me, you know.
37:25
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so it's kind of like so are these like complete bullshit, these stories?
37:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
37:33
SPEAKER_02: You're gonna give people chest issues.
37:35
SPEAKER_02: No, no, no.
37:36
SPEAKER_01: No, this is no, it's this is this is not true.
37:38
SPEAKER_01: This is absolutely true that my sister and I used to catch hermit crabs.
37:41
SPEAKER_01: That's absolutely true.
37:42
SPEAKER_01: But the part that I'm gonna say next is not that true, but it's just like used for therapy.
37:46
SPEAKER_01: Um so what I would what we would notice was you know, when there's a when there's a situation where the hermit crab is not allowed to grow anymore, whether it's like a job or a relationship or or a or it's just it feels like it's it's it's not able to become what it's supposed to be.
38:00
SPEAKER_01: There's no more room for it.
38:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they do something that us humans have a lot of difficulty doing, and that is they don't care about temporary discomfort or uncertainty when they're in a situation that's no longer, you know, appropriate for them or or they can't like become anymore.
38:17
SPEAKER_01: They take their naked little crab body and they go and they leave that that and they become vulnerable and they go out into the world and they seek that new shell, that that shell that's meant for them.
38:28
SPEAKER_01: And what I think is beautiful about that is you never see a hermit crab turn around and try to get back into that old shell.
38:35
SPEAKER_01: They just go because there's there's no alternative.
38:37
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's a relationship metaphor.
38:40
SPEAKER_01: No, it is because it's like, how many times have you been in a bad situation?
38:44
SPEAKER_01: And because you don't want to face temporary discomfort, or because you don't want to face uncertainty, you'd rather stay in that position that you know is not good for you.
38:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that's that could be a way of thinking, that could be a relationship, that could be you know a story you're telling yourself, that could be a job, it could be a lot of things.
39:02
SPEAKER_01: You know, how many how many people are in the wrong job and they're like, Well, it's gonna be a pain in the ass, or I'm not gonna have money for a little while, or it's gonna be hard to find a new job.
39:10
SPEAKER_01: You kind of talk yourself into that staying in that shell.
39:13
SPEAKER_01: A hermit would never do that.
39:14
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I do feel though, like our upbringing, a lot of it was like kind of taught us to be like that, right?
39:21
SPEAKER_01: Well, when I when I was leaving the post office, first of all, when I was leaving the Navy, my dad was like, Don't do that, you'll never get another job.
39:27
SPEAKER_01: And then when I was leaving the post office, he's like, No one leaves the post office, what are you doing?
39:31
SPEAKER_01: You'll never get another job.
39:32
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, Dad, this is terrible advice, like over and over and over again.
39:38
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but I mean, that's what they did.
39:40
SPEAKER_02: You like stayed in a terrible job, you stayed in a terrible marriage.
39:43
SPEAKER_02: You stayed in the world.
39:44
SPEAKER_01: Well, that's because here's the thing you could work at Benny's and be the manager and raise a fucking family of six.
39:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I know.
39:50
SPEAKER_01: It was a different time.
39:52
SPEAKER_01: Al Bundy's a shoe salesman.
39:53
SPEAKER_01: A shoe salesman.
39:54
SPEAKER_01: I I mean, like, it's I mean, it's unbelievable, but it's just not it's just not that way anymore.
39:59
SPEAKER_01: I there's so many more like bullshit stories that I'll I'll give you one more quote that I really love that I use on people all the time.
40:06
SPEAKER_01: Okay, but I think it is probably I think we're at like 50 minutes.
40:09
SPEAKER_01: All right, I know, I know I could have kept doing this for hopefully there's but but people should hear this because it's from Hippocrates, which is like the first um doctor, right?
40:18
SPEAKER_01: Let me take the Hippocratic.
40:20
SPEAKER_01: So he says, before you can heal, you have to be willing to give up what made you sick.
40:25
SPEAKER_01: It's true.
40:26
SPEAKER_01: So many things.
40:27
SPEAKER_02: So many things.
40:28
SPEAKER_01: So many things.
40:29
SPEAKER_01: I think of substance use, I think of food.
40:34
SPEAKER_02: That's where my mind, like, I mean, it's true.
40:37
SPEAKER_02: Like, yeah, I know I can't tell you how many things I have the worst acid reflux, and it's like I'm just gonna keep eating those tomatoes.
40:45
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, dude, every day I'm like, because I want to like cut, like I want to like get in like a certain are you gonna do like like shows?
40:55
SPEAKER_01: No, but I I would I would want to get to I I have this like a goal of just like getting down to a certain percentage, and like every it's like food has a pull.
41:06
SPEAKER_02: No, what do they say?
41:07
SPEAKER_02: Abs are made in the kitchen.
41:08
SPEAKER_02: It's it's it's true.
41:10
SPEAKER_02: And I find when I'm home all day, it's just like I'm just walking by and I'll just grab a fucking granola bar.
41:16
SPEAKER_02: And it's like this is 120 calories that are gonna get me absolutely nowhere.
41:21
SPEAKER_01: I don't even really want this, but I'm just here, and it's like you get that little Yeah, and you know what the biggest contributing factor to like the one thing we didn't talk about really that people that like what's left out of all of this is not that like we don't know what that right thing to do is for us, like, oh okay, so like be the hermit crab and and chase that like goal or have that goal and move towards it.
41:42
SPEAKER_01: The thing that we can do that's fucked up is this is the self-deceit.
41:46
SPEAKER_01: So when I'm like, oh no, it's fine if I have three bowls of shepherd's pie because tomorrow I'm not eating anything.
41:53
SPEAKER_01: And you know what I mean?
41:54
SPEAKER_01: Like we have this ability to lie to ourselves, and it's like we know that it's bullshit, but we just do it anyway.
41:59
SPEAKER_01: I know it's comforting.
42:00
SPEAKER_02: I know it is definitely when you start to get into a better routine though, this is the problem.
42:06
SPEAKER_02: It's like it's so much easier once you're in a routine to do the right things.
42:11
SPEAKER_02: I've been going to the gym.
42:12
SPEAKER_02: I paid for the membership at Edge that has the daycare, so that's$35 a month.
42:16
SPEAKER_02: I'm not certainly not gonna waste that.
42:18
SPEAKER_02: So I've been going to the gym like three, four times a week with Remy.
42:21
SPEAKER_02: And when you do that, well, then I like don't really want to eat as crappy, like I do occasionally, and it all goes hand in hand.
42:28
SPEAKER_02: And then I'm like, huh, like I kind of want to get a better night's sleep, you know, and but you have to start the process and you have to like do it repeatedly for a little bit.
42:37
SPEAKER_02: Usually it takes me like a week or two to get back into like full gym mode, you know.
42:41
SPEAKER_02: But it doesn't take that long to be like this is just part of my routine.
42:44
SPEAKER_02: Granted, I'm home during the day, so it's a little bit easier, but it's just hard.
42:49
SPEAKER_02: It seems daunting when you think about it all at once.
42:51
SPEAKER_01: So if you want to be beautiful, you have to make beautiful choices.
42:54
SPEAKER_01: That's what that's what the ancient Greeks say.
42:56
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and on that note, I think we covered it.
42:59
SPEAKER_01: I think we covered it.
43:00
SPEAKER_01: We there's probably so much, but we I definitely open to questions on this.
43:04
SPEAKER_02: Thrilled that we did not do September 11th.
43:07
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
43:10
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I'm not against it for I did.
43:12
SPEAKER_02: By the way, I watched United 93.
43:14
SPEAKER_02: I did all the things.
43:15
SPEAKER_02: I did too.
43:16
SPEAKER_01: I watched it with Nick.
43:17
unknown: Oh my god.
43:18
SPEAKER_02: He's like 10.
43:20
SPEAKER_02: We were like, what the fuck?
43:22
SPEAKER_02: No, I want I watched a lot.
43:25
SPEAKER_02: It was really it was really good, but it was also like, holy shit, it's crazy to think about just to think about how different it was.
43:32
SPEAKER_02: Like, I remember when I went to college, like my friends all came to the gate and like had signs and shit.
43:37
SPEAKER_02: And then three weeks later, that ended forever.
43:40
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
43:40
SPEAKER_02: So I I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility.
43:43
SPEAKER_02: I just like it's like, are we gonna be able to like have a laugh here and there?
43:47
SPEAKER_02: And like, I don't think so.
43:48
SPEAKER_02: I feel like we would get canceled by the no one that listens to us.
43:52
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
43:53
SPEAKER_01: So there's a couple, there's a couple that listen.
43:55
SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
43:56
SPEAKER_02: We have no, we have a good, I would say uh that reach out.
43:59
SPEAKER_02: I would say we have a good like 15 to 20 people.
44:02
SPEAKER_02: That's not bad, but also then randomly, like once every two years, um, someone will be like, Oh my god, I listen to your podcast, or like I started listening to it.
44:10
SPEAKER_02: So, like, I feel like it's just it's a slow burn, you know.
44:13
SPEAKER_02: We'll get it.
44:14
SPEAKER_02: Slow burn.
44:14
SPEAKER_01: It's good though.
44:15
SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of good ones.
44:17
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there are.
44:18
SPEAKER_02: So we do have a lot of good ones, and listen to them and then rate and review us.
44:21
SPEAKER_02: That would be great.
44:22
SPEAKER_02: And yeah, what's up?
44:24
SPEAKER_00: All right, we will see you next week.
44:26
SPEAKER_00: So I took my medication and I poured my trauma out on some sad-eyed middle-aged man's overpriced, new leather couch, and we argued about finally found some middle ground that all.