Latest / Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers / Episode #13: What If Someone Dies Unsaved? Part 1

Transcript

Episode #13: What If Someone Dies Unsaved? Part 1 · Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Hey everyone, Tim Wright here along with Terry Summers.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: Terry Summers, and we're asking the question today, what if somebody you love dies unsaved?
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: What does that mean?
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: Will they spend an eternity unsaved?
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: In the fires of hell.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: And we don't want to make light of that at all because this is an important discussion.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: Terry, this comes to us.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: This is actually a question that was asked by one of our readers.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think you've got it there.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: You want to read it for us?
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's super cool.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of folk will identify it.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, here we go.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: I was always taught...
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: that we must decide to accept Christ before we breathe our last breath,
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: or we will end up in hell forever.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: I know one can find scriptures to support this view,
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: but are there also scriptures that support the view that Christ will continue to
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: pursue unbelievers after death?
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good one.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: So much stuff in that question.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's going to be important for us to spend a couple weeks on this
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: because there is so much soil we need to till around this because a lot of the soil
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: has become hardened with certain beliefs that we think are Christian and just may
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: not be.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: So what's interesting,
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: just as I heard you reading the question,
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: we're just a couple of things right off the top that we're going to dive into the
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: next two weeks.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: First of all, I was always taught that we must decide to accept Christ.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: So right away for Tim,
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: the alarm bells go off on,
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: wait,
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: we have to do something to save ourselves,
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: which is the first problem.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: And the second problem is there are plenty of scriptures to support this view of hell.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: And as we're going to see in a few weeks, when we finally get to hell, we're going to
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: There may not be that many verses to support the concept of hell that we think there are.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why we need to do some tilling of some really hard soil.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: Because for so many years,
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: for so many of us,
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: the prevailing view of Christianity has been either decide for Jesus or you're
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: going to hell.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I think what we're going to learn over the next,
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: we're going to do probably four weeks total on this.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: That wasn't even necessarily the view of the early church.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: And that maybe these views of hell and punishment evolved.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'm giving a little teaser here.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: Evolved from certain people in religious power trying to hold power over people.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the ways you do that, one of the ways you control them is
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: is with the possibility of being damned to hell.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: If they don't live a certain way, believe a certain way, or give a certain way.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: So what I want to do,
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: and Terry,
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: I know you've got a lot of questions about this because you and I were both raised
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: in a similar background.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: Mine may be a little softer, being Lutheran.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: But this whole issue of all of these people that we love,
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: and we answered this question on a podcast earlier,
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: all these people that we love,
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: who maybe right now don't believe in Jesus,
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: or who may breathe their last without ever having a Jesus moment,
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: wow,
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: the good news of Jesus suddenly becomes really bad news.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what we want to walk through today.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: It becomes really bad news.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to take for granted what you mean by that.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: It becomes really bad news because we carry that,
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: those that are left here or whomever it is we're talking about,
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: that they would be spending eternity in hell.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I've certainly heard this a lot as a pastor of –
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: Family members who have lost loved ones and they know that their loved ones died
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: outside of a relationship with Jesus.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: Either they just didn't care.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: They were antagonistic toward the faith.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: And they're living with this burden that this God who loves the world is sending
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: their loved ones to an eternity of torment.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I say suddenly the gospel becomes really bad news.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: even for Christian people, if we believe that our loved ones are being sent to hell.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot of stuff to unpack here.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: And let's kind of look at some different things.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: And you jump in as you've got questions for clarification and so on and so forth.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: There are several things that we need to sort of reconsider as we look at this question.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: one of them does have to do with the nature of faith itself.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: And there are a lot of different ways to look at this.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: But for a lot of us,
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: just to restate what I've already said,
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: we were raised in this belief of a hell.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: And this hell is where all those who don't believe in Jesus go.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't matter what kind of life they lived.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: And it really doesn't matter what kind of life Christian people lived.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: Christian can be some of the most vile people in the world,
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: but as long as they believe in Jesus,
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: they're going to heaven.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: And non-Christians can be some of the most gracious people on the planet,
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: and they're still going to go to hell.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: And we try to do these mental gymnastics to say that,
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: that's just the way the gospel works,
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: and that's the way God works.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: And for those who are really troubled by it, they'll try to say things like, well, hell...
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: is god's love answer because if people don't want to spend an eternity with god god
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: won't force god's self on them and so it's an hell is an act of love and we do all
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: these things to really kind of talk ourselves into a gracious god sending people to
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: an eternity of torment um and so a lot of us just because this has sort of been the
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: party line
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: for so many of us, the ground becomes hard and this, we just believe it.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it becomes very difficult to sort of change gears.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll talk about why that is in a moment to change gears and think in a different way.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and that's why I want to say in part that faith isn't just believing things.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: Faith is questioning things.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: Faith isn't just believing things.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's questioning things.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's being curious.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's being open to the spirit of God.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_03: Hmm.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: And once we think we've got the answer and we start to be calcified around that answer,
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: we sort of close ourself off to what the Spirit of God might be saying in our lives.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: Now, that's not to say, you probably hear my dogs barking in the background.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's not to say that there aren't certain things as Christians that we're going to believe.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: And no matter how many questions we ask about it, we're still going to believe it.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: But the reality is that
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: The more questions we ask,
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: good questions we ask,
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: the more our faith is either going to be confirmed to us or it's going to expand
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: and evolve.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: And either way, that's a good thing.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's a win-win.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: But when we're not curious,
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: when we say,
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: whatever they're going to say that there is no hell or that God saves us after death,
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: I can't be open to that because it changes all of scripture.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's when we get ourselves into trouble.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that there are some Christians,
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: and we may talk about this as we go along in the next few weeks,
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: I think that there are some Christians who need help because they need justice.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: But I think there are a lot of Christians who really want to figure out a way,
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: biblically,
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: to say that God is going to have the final word,
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: not hell.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so hopefully that will at least get us thinking creatively and to sort of jumpstart curiosity.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: Here's the problem with curiosity.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I've been writing about this on a few of my blogs.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm reading a book.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: Shoot, I can't remember the name of it offhand right now.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, he talks about our propensity to dig deep into our own misinformation.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: And...
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: What, a frog attack you?
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's a bug.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's too bad we're not putting this on video.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: That was a nice one.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: I know, because that would have been... I just about fell out of my seat.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know what?
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: It might be the spirit moving you to... I know.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_03: You beat me to it.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: I was going to say that.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, what science tells us is a couple things.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: Number one, when the brain is met with conflicting information...
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: something that we believe, and then a contrary or conflicting piece of information comes to us.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: The immediate response of the oldest part of our brain, the amygdala, is to go into fight or flight.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: And we respond to competing ideas or contradictory ideas the same way that we would
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: have responded to a saber-toothed tiger chasing us.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so the brain immediately goes into fight or flight, right?
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so rather than immediately being open to curiosity and say,
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: wow,
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: that's an interesting idea,
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: our brains shut down and we go into full panic mode.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: And we do everything we can to either protect that belief or we just run from the conflicting ideas.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, kind of like la, la, la, la, la, la, la.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, don't want to hear it.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's exactly right.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: Don't want to hear it.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: And that's in part because it's terrifying to think we might be wrong.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: So take this topic, for example, we're talking about heaven and hell.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: And if I were to come right out and say,
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: there is no such thing as an eternal hell for a lot of us,
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: we just go into panic because we say,
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: if that's not true,
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: what else isn't true in the Bible?
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_02: Here, here.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: And if we've been taught to believe all of our lives that if we don't accept Jesus, we're going to hell.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: And now Tim comes along and saying, well, maybe that's not quite right.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: We go into panic.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: Wait a minute.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: What else isn't true?
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: What else have I been told that's wrong?
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: And let me just assure everyone, we're not saying the Bible is wrong.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: What I'm suggesting is maybe there's another way to interpret the Bible.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: But our brains have a hard time with that.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, there's some research that says the more we realize we're wrong, the more we dig our heels in.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: Isn't that interesting?
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: The more we know we're wrong, the more we'll dig our heels in because we have to save face.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: We just cannot possibly admit we've been wrong.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so think about it without getting political.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'll get political for a moment.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: Think about it politically.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: When,
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: say,
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: our candidate,
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: and this happens on both sides of the aisle,
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: does something that's just absolutely horrific and goes totally against our values,
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: we can't possibly admit we voted for the wrong person or that we disagree because
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: that means I was wrong about something.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: And that's so difficult.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's easier for us to be wrong about something and to dig deeper in it than it is
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: to say,
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: I was wrong.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: And the second thing that happens in our brain,
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: when we meet a conflicting viewpoint,
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: when we start to argue against it,
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: we get a rush of dopamine.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: Really?
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: Really.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so dopamine is the same kind of feel good we get when we do something well,
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: when we get a compliment,
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: when we eat a piece of chocolate.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: Or when we have sex.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: Or shopping, I read.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: Or shopping, yes.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: Anything that gives us that warm, fuzzy, whatever it is for us.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so to argue against a competing idea is orgasmic, if I may say that.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it gives us a rush.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: So rather than actually being curious...
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: which when our curiosity takes us to its final conclusion, we actually experience dopamine rushes.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: But our immediate response is fear.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: And then that fear is overcome by dopamine because we start arguing against a competing idea.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe then just argue just to also continue arguing it so we don't have to deal with it.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: It just gets us into this vicious cycle rather than opening us up.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so we have to kind of work at this.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, now we live in a digital world where all the algorithms just feed into our belief system.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so we can always find things on social media now to validate our beliefs,
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: even if those beliefs are completely false.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: And certainly we see that all the time and to see it a lot lately where it's
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: absolutely been debunked and yet people still believe it because there's somebody
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: out there who says it's true.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so now because one person said it's true, I'm gonna believe it's true.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: So part of the reason why we're going down this path is to say that even though we
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: may have a visceral response to ideas that challenge us,
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: this is the way the spirit of God opens us up
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: to grace and mercy and compassion and gives us the ability either to see scriptures
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: with new eyes or affirms the way we see scripture as it is.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so part of our podcast,
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: I hope,
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: is to stimulate curiosity in people,
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: even though at first,
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: for some of us,
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: it can be a bit daunting and put us into fight or flight mode.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: And again,
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: I think when we look at scripture with the eyes of curiosity,
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: we always end up on the other side filled with wonder and awe that this story is
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: even more gracious and more compelling than we could have ever imagined.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: Go ahead.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: yeah so and this might not be the spot in the podcast so you you tell me because
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: you uh you kind of have ideas of where to to go to address this question i'm sure
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: but um immediately when i read the question and as i shared with you before we
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: started i understand this sort of yank back
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: Into what I've always known.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: And now I'm understanding a little bit more of why my brain is inclined to do that.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: But one of the verses that came to mind and I am not one to memorize scripture.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I had to look it up.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: I have not been, I should say.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: I had to look it up.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: I knew the gist of it.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, it's Romans 10, 9 that says, if you declare, the big word that got me there is if.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: If you declare with your mouth,
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus is Lord,
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead,
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: you will be saved.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: And what struck me about that is this question by one of our listeners said,
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: was speaking about uh making this sort of um decision prior to death well you
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: wouldn't speak aloud if you were dead so i mean at least in my understanding of a
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: living human being so those kinds of things when he says i'm sure there's
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: scriptures that would support or could be interpreted in supporting what his
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: question was sort of anchored to um are out there so
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: That, for me, is under the umbrella of what he's asking in the greater sense.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: And how would that weigh into this conversation?
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm going to come back to that today in a moment.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: And then we'll go a little deeper with it next week.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: Because what you say is really profound.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: And part of what I'm trying to do here is to,
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: with this podcast,
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: to create a little bigger worldview or scripture view that sort of blows apart some
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: of the old views that we had so that we can see these verses maybe in a different light.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so kind of a prequel to the greater conversation.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: So the next thing I think that's important for us as we sort of create this great
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: big structure is to ask again,
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: what is the nature of God?
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because this is a nature of God question.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: What is God really like?
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: Is God loving?
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: If God is a God who sends some people to hell, what does that say about God?
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: And if God doesn't send people to hell, what does that say about God?
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: So this is a nature of God thing.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: So what is God like?
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: Is God a mean, vindictive deity, hell-bent on sending people to hell?
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: Is God a God of love who loves all people and one day will reconcile all things to himself,
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: which we're going to look at a lot next week?
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: So here's what Paul says about
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: in 1 Timothy,
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: and you have to hang in there for a moment because you'll think,
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: what has this got to do with what we're talking about?
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: But here we go.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: This is 1 Timothy 2.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: Paul says,
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: First of all,
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: then I urge that supplications,
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: prayers,
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: intercessions,
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: and thanksgivings be made for everyone,
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: for kings and all who are in high positions,
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: so that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and dignity.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: This is right and acceptable before God our Savior.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: This is the point.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: This is right and acceptable for God our Savior,
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: For there is one God,
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: there is also one mediator between God and humankind,
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus Christ,
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: himself human,
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: who gave himself a ransom for all.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: so god's desire now how that's carried out but what we're doing is right now we're
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: painting a big picture god's desire is that everyone be saved everyone be saved
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: that's god's will that's god's desire now the question is is there something
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: stronger than god's will is there something stronger than god's desire
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: When the Bible says all, which we'll focus on next week, does all mean some?
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: Does it mean all?
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: Let me just give you an example.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: Some of our friends in a different theological position believe in what's called double predestination.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, double predestination.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: Double?
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: Double.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: Double predestination,
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: which means that God created some people to go to heaven and some people to go to hell.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: Now,
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know how you read a verse like this,
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: who desires that everyone be saved and come to the conclusion that God creates some
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: people just to go to hell.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why we need this big picture.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: We need to ask, what is God like?
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: If God is a God who creates some people just to go to hell,
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: that's something very different about God than what I think Jesus says about God.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: And then a couple more things, and then we'll kind of see where we're at.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: This is why we call this deep grace diving.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: This isn't for the faint of heart.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: Let me just ask one quick question.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, go ahead.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes I feel like I might be putting twine around this episode's ankles,
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: so just stop me if it's coming up.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: But
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: In that, the tense of that, that God, could you read it again?
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: God desires.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: This is right and acceptable before God our Savior.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: Who desires everyone to be saved?
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: And is it fair to say that desires has been always as in desired?
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because if that was always the case with knowing that Jesus was part of his plan.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: because at the moment,
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: understanding our conversations about grace,
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: at the moment that Jesus died for us,
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: that's when he saved us,
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think we can make that particular argument as far as Christian people go.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: We were, that's when, and if you look at the New Testament,
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: That was the moment when Jesus saved even those who had died before he came.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: In other words, it is through Jesus that God will save all people.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: Past, present, future.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: Because God is a God who saves.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: God is not a God who condemns.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: When I think and pulling this out of my past, when I think of...
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: I could look at that verse and say, well, he does desire it, but he has given us free will.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: So if we say, hey, I don't want a piece of that cake.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: You made it for me, but I don't want it.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: then that sort of,
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know why the tense of that changed it for me or like lets me hear it differently.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: But anyway, I'm with you.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: and the free will thing,
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: the free will thing is something we're going to have to deal with down the line.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm going to tease that out in just a moment for you, Terry.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to come back to your question about confessing Jesus.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Tim.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: Let me say one more thing before that though.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: And that's, this is about, again, the nature of grace, which is kind of what this podcast is about.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: So the question is, how does God's grace work?
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: Are we responsible for our own salvation?
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: I.e., do we make the choice?
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: Does my belief save me?
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: Does my unbelief save me?
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: Or is God responsible for my salvation?
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where we get to your question, Terry, a little bit.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: We've talked about this before, but the Bible says that we are dead in our trespasses and sins.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: In the Lutheran church and in other churches,
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: one of our prayers,
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: the prayer of confession says we are in bondage to sin and cannot free ourselves.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: Now,
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: you just asked the question earlier,
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: if we confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: so on and so forth,
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: and you can't do that when you're dead,
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: you're right.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: Dead people can't make decisions.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: Dead people don't even have free will.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: And the Bible here tells us that we are dead.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: So we are unable to make a decision for Jesus unless the grace of Jesus comes and
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: raises us to life again.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: now the question would be why is it that jesus raises some people to life before
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: they die and why not which we'll get into but the point is to talk about free will
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: or to talk about making a decision for jesus according to scripture in a sense is
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: really irrelevant because we can't make that decision begin with got it boy because
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: dead people can't save themselves
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: when Greg,
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: who asked the question,
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: says,
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: there's plenty of scripture about believing in Jesus beforehand,
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: but are there verses about him saving us after we die?
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's what the whole point is.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: We do, we're already dead.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: And Jesus comes along and breathes life into us.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: So let me, I'll read a quote for you.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: Now we're going to get really deep because I'm going to read you a quote from a theologian.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: His name is Moltmann, and he just passed away at the age of 90-something.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: This is a guy.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: He was German and actually was enlisted in Hitler's army and was not a believer at
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: all and gave himself up to the Allies and spent several years in a prisoner of war
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: camp with the Allies where he was treated quite nicely and introduced to Jesus and
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: became a Christian.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: And became one of the great theologians of the 20th and the 21st century.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: And he's been highly influential in my life.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so here's a question.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: He asks this question.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: Does God's love preserve our free will?
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: Or does it free our enslaved will?
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: Which has become unfree through the power of sin.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: Does God free men and women or does he seek the men and women who have become lost?
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to read that again because that's pretty deep.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: It is deep.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: Does God's love preserve our free will?
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: In other words, if I say I have the free will to reject God, does God preserve that?
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: And then I suffer the consequences.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: Or does God's love free our enslaved will,
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: or we could say our dead wills,
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: which have become unfree through the power of sin?
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: Does God free men and women, or does he seek the men and women who have become lost?
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: Which, of course, is what the story of the gospel is.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: The story of Jesus finding dead, lost people and giving them life.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: So when we talk about,
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: when we get into specifically the question next week,
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: and then over the next couple of weeks,
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: talk about hell,
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: heaven,
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: and so on and so forth.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: These are some broad strokes.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: What is God like?
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: I want to suggest that God is a lover of the world and a lover of people.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: To quote my close personal friend,
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: BJ Thomas,
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: famous singer who passed away a few years ago,
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: wrote a song.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: He said, I wonder what the Lord has made that he plans to throw away.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: So God is a God of love.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: God is a God who is not hell bent on sending us to hell,
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: but who went through hell to save us and rescue us from hell,
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: whatever hell is.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: God's desire is that everyone be saved.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: And the only one who has the power to save people is God, not us.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: We can't save ourselves in any way, shape, or form.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: Only God has the power to save us.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: And if it's God's desire that all be saved,
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: and God is the only one who has the power to save,
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: and if God is loving,
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: then somehow,
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: in some way,
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: biblically,
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: scripturally,
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: and with justice,
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: God's grace is going to have the final word over our enslaved dead wills,
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: over our behaviors and our actions.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: And God's will will always trump whatever decisions we make.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's the big framework.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: Got it.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: And we're going to have to let our folks sort of live with that now for a week.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: And then we'll keep talking about that as we have been, as we dig deeper now into the specific question.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: And then we'll move on to hell and so on and so forth.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: And just as a little tease,
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: once in a while,
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: you can do an internet search and you'll see where there are certain people,
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: pastors who say that Jesus preached more about hell than heaven.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: And you think, wow, that's interesting.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: Until you find out that the word hell didn't even exist at the time of Jesus.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then you think, okay, so now what's going on?
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: Again, what we're doing here... I'm sorry, go ahead.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: What we're trying to do here is to say that everything that we're trying to talk
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: about here is scriptural.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's just a different way of looking at it.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I hope a better way of looking at it, a more gracious way of looking at it.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: You were going to ask a question.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: No, I was just looking at, I can't believe this conversation has just been so engaging.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: I can't believe we're knocking at the door of saying bye-bye on this episode.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: It flew by.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: It did.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: It did.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's because of your brilliant questions, Terry.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, the guy that wrote in, I assumed it's a guy the way you referred to him, but kudos.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's like an arrow hitting the bullseye in terms of all of the possible questions
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: that can come to us from this podcast.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe I could just say one more thing,
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: which is really interesting because I haven't given people enough to think about yet.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: But when Jesus gave his very first sermon,
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: and depending on which gospel you read,
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: his first sermon either was,
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: the kingdom of heaven has come near,
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: repent and believe the good news.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: Or from Luke 4,
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus said,
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: the spirit of the Lord is upon me because he has anointed me to preach good news to
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: the poor,
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: to set the captives free,
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: to proclaim release to the captives,
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: to give sight to the blind.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: And nowhere in any of those initial messages do you hear Jesus saying anything
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: about accepting Jesus,
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: confessing him with our mouths,
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: or even anything about going to heaven when we die.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's all about God's grace kingdom has invaded planet Earth in the person of Jesus,
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: and he has come to begin to heal the world by feeding the hungry,
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: giving sight to the blind,
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: setting captives free.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: All of that has to do with how we're living out and loving our neighbors as we love ourselves.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: So somehow along the way,
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: Christianity got sidetracked with all of this,
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: it's all about going to heaven stuff.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: When Jesus came to say, it's all about heaven coming to earth right now.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: Your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: So all of this stuff we have to sort of peel away.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so we're going to call it a day and let people's amygdalas sort of quiet down.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because they're smoking.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: They're smoking, yep.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: And some of them can have a little dopamine rush and they can go back into their
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: closets and just argue with me for a while and have that orgasmic experience there.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: And then we'll come back in and do it next week.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: All right?
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: All right, Terry.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: Let's Morse code them out of here.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: Morse code them out of here.