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What to Expect For Your First Trial with Mikaela Pflueger of Simon Law Group · Justice Team Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1:
• 0:01
  ... welcome to this episode of the Justice Team Podcast on the Justice Team Network. We do practical how to's for lawyers, those people law adjacent, we try to keep it a little fun. And today we have the honor of having Mikaela Pflueger on the show.
• 0:02
  Speaker 2:
• 0:03
  Hello, everybody.
• 0:04
  Speaker 1:
• 0:05
  Mikaela has a podcast that's out as well. Why don't you tell us, first of all, the title of the podcast? Where to find it?
• 0:06
  Speaker 2:
• 0:07
  Yeah. So it's called Ladies in Law, and it's on this Justice Team Network, and I'm doing it with one of my colleagues and one of my closest friends, Allison Melendez.
• 0:08
  Speaker 1:
• 0:09
  And we've had her on the show, so check out her episode as well. So a few things we're going to cover on this episode is, one, we're going to talk about the first trial that you just had, and we'll talk about some lessons for people that are getting into their first trial, what to expect. We're going to talk about some of the organizational stuff you do as a lawyer, 'cause I think it's pretty phenomenal how you're able to track... Running a lot of high level, high exposure cases, and be able to track tasks, and do all of those things. And then lastly, we'll touch on some of the stuff with the show.
• 0:10
  Speaker 2:
• 0:11
  Perfect.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1:
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  Sound good?
• 0:14
  Speaker 2:
• 0:15
  Sounds good to me.
• 0:16
  Speaker 1:
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  And Mikaela also did her law school in Kentucky, so I'm a huge fan of-
• 0:18
  Speaker 2:
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  Go Cats.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1:
• 0:21
  ... her for that reason. Where the whiskey flows. So Mikaela, first of all, why don't you tell us the recent trial that you had? I know it's settled just before closing arguments, but after a couple of weeks there, what are some things that you can tell people what to expect when going to their first trial?
• 0:22
  Speaker 2:
• 0:23
  Yeah, so like you said, we just finished my first trial, and I had the absolute honor and privilege of watching you in action, and I feel like there's very few people that would be... I mean, none, no one would be better to learn from than you. You laid out an incredible blueprint of what to expect, which was incredibly helpful, I think. There was no part of me that felt like I was jumping into the sea of unknown, which I think is incredibly important, is knowing you have this network of people to pull from and ask questions from is huge. I think a big part of what really helped me was knowing that I needed to be organized and on top of everything. Anytime any exhibit is mentioned, you're writing it down, you're writing whether it was admitted, you're writing all of the information that you know could possibly need at the end.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1:
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  And that's why we do things in teams is, one of us is in the moment, whether picking a jury, or doing a witness examination or cross examination, you have to live in that moment, and you can't be taking notes about which exhibits came in, or, "That was a good idea for closing argument to tie that in later." And I could see you over there doing those things. And one time I forgot, and the clerk was like, "You guys have all the exhibits?" And you were like, "Yeah, got them all here." I was like, "Shit, I forgot about that. Thank you, Mikaela."
• 0:26
  Speaker 2:
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  "Here's my Excel sheet." I loved that. And I think also a big part of getting ready for the trial was preparing our witnesses, and staying with our client. So our case was a wrongful death case, and it was incredibly heavy. And I think a big part of that was creating a space for our client to actually feel safe being vulnerable in front of a room of people that he has to share this most traumatic thing he's ever been through in front of. And so taking the time to really make sure that he doesn't think he's getting thrown into the deep end, and not knowing what to expect, I think is huge in any case that you're doing.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1:
• 0:29
  Yeah, and that's one thing that... In this case specifically, I did not even touch that part of the story. The general damage, the storytelling was all from you and your team in this trial. Sometimes you have to divvy it up, where I was so focused on... It was a huge liability dispute, I had to be focused in on all those experts, the liability, the picking the jury and doing those tasks. So what we did in our team is, our client live in Georgia at the time, so Mikaela had flown there at least once, and had been in the home collecting the story, collecting the photos, or even going into their closets and stuff. I saw you snooping.
• 0:30
  Speaker 2:
• 0:31
  I did.
• 0:32
  Speaker 1:
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  And for those of you that are listening or watching, reach out to the show, you can go to justiceteamnetwork.com and ping us, because Mikaela actually has... We can give you her method to collect all of these things. And it was wonderful, 'cause it even has the story arcs. Is it story arcs?
• 0:34
  Speaker 2:
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  Yeah, story arcs.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1:
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  Story arcs. Right, and...
• 0:38
  Speaker 2:
• 0:39
  Yeah. I think it was really helpful for me to kind of create a timeline before I went to his home for a home visit of, okay, there are these different chapters of our client's life. There's the chapter of his life growing up with his dad, and then there's the chapter of his life without his dad. But there's so many things in between that that I think are really important to touch, because there are so many different formative times that his dad got to be a part of, and so many he won't be a part of. So it's kind of breaking it up into that timeline, and knowing that you want information for each one of those chapters.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1:
• 0:41
  Yeah, and I think that was important and compelling, in any case, is, here at our firm, we require home visits for a lot of reasons. So can you walk people through what you're doing at these home visits, and then what do you do thereafter?
• 0:42
  Speaker 2:
• 0:43
  Definitely. So a home visit is so incredibly important, and I think honestly, the best time to do it is before you're doing discovery responses, because you want to have as much information as you possibly can at the very beginning, because then you're leading from this preemptive strike, like, "I have all of this information, and I'm giving it to you because I have nothing to hide." We're transparent. And I think for a home visit, in preparing for the home visit, I think it's really important to just have a very good handle on the file and all of the information. All of the information that you're going to get, a lot of the information that defense is going to want, you just preempt.
• 0:44
  I'd rather always be preemptively planning than reactive. So going to the home visit, for me, in this case, I wanted to see his home, I wanted to see his childhood photos. He had told me over the phone that his mom kept this entire album of photos, and I was like, "Okay, I need to see those." And sports were huge for them, so I knew they were going to have jerseys, and so I definitely did snoop into the closet for that. But I think a big part of it is, a home where people feel hopefully their safest.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1:
• 0:46
  Safe, yeah.
• 0:47
  Speaker 2:
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  And so it allowed him to just feel vulnerable in opening up in a space where so much of his life has already happened. And I think a lot of the time, our human nature is to want to just jump into the biggest things, but I feel like the small things is what people really can relate to. The little moments. I mean, if it's a personal injury like not brushing your teeth the same way because your shoulder hurts so badly. And that's not something that you might think to talk about, but if I'm walking through your home and you see your toothbrush, it might be like, "Oh, that's something that I struggle with." That you might not have felt comfortable or even thought about when you were on the phone.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1:
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  Yeah, and if you start this process early like Mikaela does, it allows you to storytell throughout discovery, better prepare for deposition, and certainly for trial, but also gives the opportunity for the case to resolve, because you're loading the other side with information about, "We're ready for trial, here's what the damages are really are, we're ready to storytell. Here we go."
• 0:51
  Speaker 2:
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  Exactly.
• 0:53
  Speaker 1:
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  'Cause I do think the trials are more about the human storytelling and the human emotion-
• 0:55
  Speaker 2:
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  Absolutely.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1:
• 0:58
  ... than anything else else, and common sense. So home visits, you went through that, and then you went through a lot of preparation in his family's direct examination. Can you walk us through some of the stuff that you guys did?
• 0:59
  Speaker 2:
• 1:00
  Yeah, absolutely. So in this specific case, our client lost his father, and their relationship was so much closer than any kind of family relationship I have ever known. And so much of the way that he, our client has healed is by keeping his dad's name alive, and telling these stories. I just would talk to him on the phone, and a story would probably come up, and I kept a running list of notes in my phone of just, "Okay, he mentioned this, I want to get deeper into this." And so I kind of had this working bullet point list of, "These are things that I know he's going to have some good stories about because of what their relationship was." And because I spent a lot of time really intentionally listening.
• 1:01
  And I think sometimes that can be difficult when we have this checklist of questions we need to get through. It's so easy to just be like, "Okay, next, next." Because you need to answer those questions. But if you're actually listening to want to know more about what they're telling you instead of just giving me a one line response, I think that that really helps. And I always think, "What are the things that I really want to show here? And what can I get in order to really make this story stand out more than just the words on a page?" You want to feel something with it. And so that's how I kind of led through all of the questions, and getting those stories from him.
• 1:02
  Speaker 1:
• 1:03
  Yeah, and by the time you then get to the stand, if you get to a trial, it's more of a conversation with your client, 'cause you have that mutual... You're kind of thinking what they're thinking in their head, and you know when to pivot, and when to ask this question, or when they may get emotional about something, so it's a perfect time to ask that.
• 1:04
  I know leading up to the trial, you and Ilya Lerma who we had brought in to try some of the case with us, that the two of you had many working sessions with you and the family, hours and hours, even during trial to get them ready. And that's what, when you do stuff as a team, it's so important because it allowed me to concentrate on the other aspects that we needed to win on.
• 1:05
  Well, let's just pivot a little bit here. With your organizational stuff, I want you to speak a little bit about that, but I was enamored with... We were jury selection, you actually had a... Instead of the juries, they gave us a sheet of the jurors, and we're usually trying to snap a photo, send it back home office to research it. You already had it written all down in a spreadsheet, and I was like, "Wow, we have every juror's name there." I mean, all their information's already there, so at the end of the day when I went... I just pulled up your spreadsheet, 'cause I knew what jurors we had in the box, which ones are coming up-
• 1:06
  Speaker 2:
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  Awesome.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1:
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  ... and I'm just looking them up, and getting information, questions I'm going to ask, and it was so much more organized.
• 1:10
  Speaker 2:
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  I live, breathe, want to just bathe in Excel sheets. I don't know what it is, it's just-
• 1:12
  Speaker 1:
• 1:13
  Crazy.
• 1:14
  Speaker 2:
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  ... I love them. And I also used to play typing games on the computer for fun, I was a really cool kid, and so typing fast just is invigorating for me.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1:
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  You fly. You fly.
• 1:18
  Speaker 2:
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  I was just like... I got into a zone.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1:
• 1:21
  Even the court reporter was like, "Wow." And they're doing shorthand.
• 1:22
  Speaker 2:
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  I know, and I just am like... Not hunting and pecking, I...
• 1:24
  Speaker 1:
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  Hunting and pecking.
• 1:26
  Speaker 2:
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  I know where all of those letters are. I think that's just so important. I'm much better at typing than writing, and I... I mean, I was like that as a student too. I would just write everything down so that I can absorb it into my brain.
• 1:28
  Speaker 1:
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  I was one of I think three people in my law school class that didn't have a computer, and I hand-wrote everything.
• 1:30
  Speaker 2:
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  That's amazing.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1:
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  I felt like a dinosaur. When I took the bar, hand-wrote it.
• 1:34
  Speaker 2:
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  Really?
• 1:36
  Speaker 1:
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  When I went there, I couldn't afford a computer yet, that was my... By the end, I could have, but I was used to this. But I don't even write anymore, I don't think I could even use an alphabet.
• 1:38
  Speaker 2:
• 1:39
  My hand cramps.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1:
• 1:41
  Yeah. Trying to do cursive. What? You remember the scene of Billy Madison where he trying to write the Z, it's like [inaudible 00:10:58]? I tried to-
• 1:42
  Speaker 2:
• 1:43
  [inaudible 00:10:59]
• 1:44
  Speaker 1:
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  ... write a Z the other day, and I was like, "I felt like Billy Madison." Anyway, so the organizational stuff that you do, within trial, we talked about, what are some things that you can give our listeners some helpful advice using your Excel domination, or basic tools that you think can help?
• 1:46
  Speaker 2:
• 1:47
  Yeah. So I have a bunch of templates, so literally, if anyone wants them... I love giving them out. I've also even just hand created some for different people, because all of our brains can just work in such different processing ways. Some people are super visual, some need to be able to write it out and cross it off, but I have essentially a weekly to-do list that I have, and then I have a case-by-case checklist.
• 1:48
  And so on my case-by-case checklist, I break it up into every phase of pre-litigation to litigation, and I'm constantly updating it anytime something has been done. If I'm touching that file, I'm touching my checklist to make sure that it's noted. And I like my team to have that too, because then they know where to jump in. So I think that's an easy way to be able to communicate with your team, or just be able to... The defense calls, and you're like, "Okay, where are we in this case?" I can pull up my checklist-
• 1:49
  Speaker 1:
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  Now I know where.
• 1:51
  Speaker 2:
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  ... and I know exactly where we're at, which helps me feel just on top of everything. Every single Friday at 8:00 a.m., I sit down with my weekly to-do list, and I plan that for the next week, where... I'm not married to what needs to happen each day, but I have my due dates of when I want to have things done, so that another set of eyes can just look over it and we get her out.
• 1:53
  Speaker 1:
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  I think that's important, 'cause you either... People write down goals, I write down daily tasks, long-term tasks. I devise electronic too, either... My work flows too, and I... Some daily ones, "I need to get down these five things done today. Nothing else, I'm getting these five things done today, let's kick these long-term stuff off. I feel that's a good way to do it. So if anybody... Go out to justiceteamnetwork.com, ping us on the website, we'll get you some templates that Mikaela has. I actually really, really like the story arching stuff that we can teach people-
• 1:55
  Speaker 2:
• 1:56
  Totally.
• 1:57
  Speaker 1:
• 1:58
  ... I think it's pretty, pretty powerful. So tell us about your new show that'll be out by the time this airs-
• 1:59
  Speaker 2:
• 2:00
  Yes.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1:
• 2:02
  So that it can be linked together.
• 2:03
  Speaker 2:
• 2:04
  The 27th is Thursday, right? Yeah?
• 2:05
  Speaker 1:
• 2:06
  Of June.
• 2:07
  Speaker 2:
• 2:08
  Of June.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1:
• 2:10
  But we're filming right now on the 24th. What's today? 24th of June.
• 2:11
  Speaker 2:
• 2:12
  Okay.
• 2:13
  Speaker 1:
• 2:14
  But we'll probably release this next week, so you'll be out.
• 2:15
  Speaker 2:
• 2:16
  Okay, it'll be out. It'll be live on all of the platforms that have podcasts. But essentially, we're talking a lot about making the law digestible. I think so often that we're so used to these acronyms and things, and we forget to take that step back and just explain what a process is. And so a lot of our episodes will be talking about how we like to do our practices, the kind of way we like to carry ourselves, the fact that it's... Being a woman attorney, we also want to show up and be true to who we are, while also knowing the intricacies of it being a male-dominated field, and being able to speak on that, and curating a really authentic network of people, and putting yourself out there, and kind of just allowing yourself to feel confident in this space, while also knowing we all still have room to grow.
• 2:17
  Speaker 1:
• 2:18
  I love it.
• 2:19
  Speaker 2:
• 2:20
  Thank you.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1:
• 2:22
  So weekly, every other week? What are you going to draw?
• 2:23
  Speaker 2:
• 2:24
  Every other week.
• 2:25
  Speaker 1:
• 2:26
  Awesome.
• 2:27
  Speaker 2:
• 2:28
  Every other Thursday.
• 2:29
  Speaker 1:
• 2:30
  Every other Thursday. Thirsty Thursday for-
• 2:31
  Speaker 2:
• 2:32
  Thirsty. Thursday. Yeah.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1:
• 2:34
  Now that you've been in your first trial at the table, what are some things that you think you'd be very good at doing at trial? What are some things you think... Take a little bit of work and learning?
• 2:35
  Speaker 2:
• 2:36
  Yeah. I think for me, I think storytelling will always come first and foremost. I think at the end of the day, every time I'm touching a case, I'm thinking, "This is someone's life." And at the end of the day, it's their life that's going to be impacted by how this goes. And so I think with storytelling, that's incredibly important for me. It's a big part of why I wanted to become an attorney in the first place, is, I want to tell people's story, and I want them to feel like their voice has power, and finding their voice. And so creating this space where they feel comfortable expressing what their experience was. So I think when it comes to getting a story, that's always going to be my favorite part.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1:
• 2:38
  Yeah, so the storytelling parts are going to be obviously the direct examinations.
• 2:39
  Speaker 2:
• 2:40
  Exactly
• 2:41
  Speaker 1:
• 2:42
  The injured party, the plaintiff, the family around them, opening statement, and usually closing argument. Those are the storytelling moments.
• 2:43
  Speaker 2:
• 2:44
  Pull me in.
• 2:45
  Speaker 1:
• 2:46
  Storytelling moments, right?
• 2:47
  Speaker 2:
• 2:48
  Yes, yes.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1:
• 2:50
  And then the other ones? How about some of the other aspects of the trial?
• 2:51
  Speaker 2:
• 2:52
  So some of the other aspects of the trial, I think what was incredible watching you do were the crosses.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1:
• 2:54
  Oh yeah, that's my favorite.
• 2:55
  Speaker 2:
• 2:56
  Your attention to detail, and the way that you just have a handle on every single aspect. There's no fumbling. You have this list, you know exactly when to mark an exhibit and pull it up. You know that file inside and out, and know exactly where things are, and your attention to detail and listening to be able to respond to. I think you do a really great job of preempting. So for your cross, I think you already have this amazing idea of, "These are all the things that I'm going to go into." And so you're listening for like, "Yep, nope, got that right here." And so I think cross is going to be something that needs that level of preparation, and was so good to see in-person.
• 2:57
  Speaker 1:
• 2:58
  Yeah. I mean, the two hardest things to do in trial are cross examination and jury selection by far. I mean, 'cause so much unscripted things are happening in the moment, that you have to be so prepared and have a lot of experience, and it's very difficult. Jury selection took me a long time. A long time. It happened so fast.
• 2:59
  Speaker 2:
• 3:00
  And that happened so quickly, you just have to be on it. But something that you did that I was like, "Okay, you need to know this and remember this." Was that you had our statistician. Statistician.
• 3:01
  Speaker 1:
• 3:02
  Oh yeah.
• 3:03
  Speaker 2:
• 3:04
  Is that the word? You knew that he's a big numbers guy, that's important to him. So you, when you are doing your directs of experts, made sure that you asked questions about numbers, knowing that that's what that person would resonate with.
• 3:05
  Speaker 1:
• 3:06
  For you as you're listening, for trial, when you have 12 jurors, nine jurors, depending on your jurisdiction, they're making the decision. They're making the final decision. Your audience is curated, you should be speaking directly to them. So I knew who they were. I would study every night to know what kind of person they were, and sprinkle little things to kind of incept things that were important for them. So our statistician, I knew when I talked to him in jury selection, I said, "Does the sample size matter to you?" And he says, "Well, obviously." And I had them talk to the jury about why sample size matters. Because I knew when we get to the defense side that their experts talking about these studies that he did that have four people in them, four people-
• 3:07
  Speaker 2:
• 3:08
  No, that's not a sample size.
• 3:09
  Speaker 1:
• 3:10
  ... that's not sample size. So I remember, when I brought that up, when I brought his sample size up, he was like... Looks at me and starts writing down, I'm like, "Gotcha." Right?
• 3:11
  Speaker 2:
• 3:12
  Yes.
• 3:13
  Speaker 1:
• 3:14
  And that's how you win over... Wasn't beat him over the head with it-
• 3:15
  Speaker 2:
• 3:16
  No.
• 3:17
  Speaker 1:
• 3:18
  ... it was like, "This is what we talk about, jury selection, this was important to you, I'm going to expose it in this moment, and now you're going to root for our client in this moment."
• 3:19
  Speaker 2:
• 3:20
  Right.
• 3:21
  Speaker 1:
• 3:22
  But that's hard. If you don't have a team, you can't plan like that.
• 3:23
  Speaker 2:
• 3:24
  Right. Yeah. No, we did good.
• 3:25
  Speaker 1:
• 3:26
  Yeah. Well, thank you for... We had an amazing result, confidential, before we settled before the closing arguments, and got very emotional, the jurors were crying with our client, and even the defendant with our client, it was a very powerful moment, even with that resolution without the jurors getting to make their final decision, 'cause... Settlement is the only time the parties have control over what happens, otherwise it's a jury making your decision. But looking forward to trying more cases with you, Mikaela. We look forward to your show coming out. It'll be out by the time that we say this. We'll probably drop a link in here, or say something, [inaudible 00:18:18] a voiceover to get it. But justiceteamnetwork.com, and you can find Mikaela's show and Allison's show, our other shows as well. So thanks for coming on.
• 3:27
  Speaker 2:
• 3:28
  Thank you for having me.