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"The Nicene Creed" with Ted Campbell · The Weight

• 0:00
  Eddie Rester: I'm Eddie Rester.
• 0:01
  Chris McAlilly: I'm Chris McAlilly. Welcome to The Weight.
• 0:03
  Chris McAlilly: Today we're talking to Dr. Ted Campbell, who is one of Eddie's church members.
• 0:10
  Eddie Rester: Ted's one of our great church members, a Sunday school class teacher, but Ted is also a church historian. He served as president of Garrett Evangelical Seminary back in the early 2000s. He was a professor at Duke before that, and he served as an associate professor of church history at Perkins School of Theology, and he is now joyfully retired. We'll talk a little bit about that with him as well.
• 0:35
  Eddie Rester: Today we're talking about the Nicene Creed. It's an important year. It's anniversary year for the Nicene Creed. And so I think it's important for us to explore this, not just as an artifact of church history, but as something significant that has given the church life now for 1700 years.
• 0:52
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah, we're going to have a few of these conversations with folks around the Creed and get some different perspectives on it, from some different theologians and maybe some pastors. But I think it's helpful first to just kind of get oriented. This is kind of a nuts and bolts style conversation, in some ways, just what is the creed? What is it for? Why should we care about it? What are the implications of creeds within Christian communities? And a little bit of the history about this particular creed.
• 1:22
  Chris McAlilly: It's an important document and an important statement that has been widely used across the world. We'll talk all about that. But it was a good conversation. It's always good to kind of come back to fundamentals. And this is one of those, those conversations that kind of get back to the basics.
• 1:42
  Eddie Rester: And maybe, if you're thinking, well, I'm not... I don't like the creeds, or, you know, I'm not sure I'm familiar with the creeds. One of the things we talked about is the church, before there was scripture, was always a church of creeds, of statements of belief. And as the church grew and people had questions, it developed additional creeds to help people learn to understand the faith and to unite them in the faith. And so we're going to talk about a lot of different aspects of that, pieces of that.
• 2:08
  Eddie Rester: But I think for me, one of the things is that it just enlivened me to this deep connection to the truth of our faith that exists and continues to exist and will exist long after us, because people prayerfully put together statements like this one to help us consider who we are and why we are and what the gift of the Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit can be for us.
• 2:33
  Chris McAlilly: I remember going to--this is going to be a very short story, because we need to get to the get to the actual conversation. But I remember going to Ruby Falls, descending this dark tunnel into this cave, and at the center of it was this beautiful waterfall. And somebody had to discover that cave and that waterfall and then create a path for the rest of us to find it. And I feel like language of prayer and creeds helps us kind of discover and kind of share in the very beauty and mystery, the life-giving dimension of God. And you know, it's not really about the Creed, it's about getting us into the presence and the power of God.
• 3:11
  Chris McAlilly: And I hope this helps to kind of clear the way, so that you can find your way a little bit deeper into the life of God.
• 3:18
  Chris McAlilly: Thanks for being with us today on The Weight.
• 3:23
  Chris McAlilly: [INTRO] Leadership today demands more than technical expertise.
• 3:30
  Chris McAlilly: It requires deep wisdom to navigate the complexity of a turbulent world, courage to reimagine broken systems, and unwarranted hope to inspire durable change.
• 3:41
  Eddie Rester: As Christ-centered leaders in churches, nonprofits, the academy, and the marketplace, we all carry the weight of cultivating communities that reflect God's kingdom in a fragmented world.
• 3:52
  Chris McAlilly: But this weight wasn't meant to be carried alone. The Christian tradition offers us centuries of wisdom if we have the humility to listen and learn from diverse voices.
• 4:02
  Eddie Rester: That's why The Weight exists: to create space for the conversations that challenge our assumptions, deepen our thinking, and renew our spiritual imagination.
• 4:12
  Chris McAlilly: Faithful leadership in our time requires both conviction and curiosity, rootedness in tradition, and responsiveness to a changing world.
• 4:20
  Eddie Rester: So whether you're leading a congregation, raising a family, teaching students, running a nonprofit, or bringing faith into your business, join us as we explore the depth and richness of Christ-centered leadership today. Welcome to The Weight. [END INTRO] We're here today with Dr. Ted Campbell. Dr Campbell, I'm going to call you Ted, since you're a church member with me here at Lovers Lane in Texas. Ted, it's great be back on the podcast today.
• 4:46
  Ted Campbell: Great to be back with y'all.
• 4:48
  Eddie Rester: Yeah, since the last time we had you on the podcast, you have fully retired.
• 4:54
  Ted Campbell: That's correct, and I'm delighted to say that I'm fully retired. I'm enjoying it.
• 4:58
  Chris McAlilly: That's fantastic.
• 4:59
  Eddie Rester: Are you... I know you've got a lot of projects going, but you're one of these people that you're not missing all of the workload and the class load. You're actually enjoying.
• 5:09
  Ted Campbell: No, I'm really enjoying it. We were in the Grand Canyon last week, our very first time to see it, and we were there in late September, which we have never, ever, ever done before, because we both were living on an academic schedule, you know. So.
• 5:24
  Eddie Rester: Yeah, that's excellent, yeah. Well, good luck with all your travels. I know that I miss you when you're not here, so.
• 5:33
  Ted Campbell: Thank you, and we miss you, but we listen to you on Sunday morning, just driving through the panhandle of Texas, going to a particular destination. We heard the whole service, Bruce and everything.
• 5:45
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah, this is great. This is a good plug. You can find Eddie any Sunday, wherever you are, whether you're a member at Lovers Lane or not.
• 5:52
  Chris McAlilly: And he's always bringing good news every Sunday.
• 5:57
  Eddie Rester: There you go.
• 5:58
  Ted Campbell: That's right.
• 5:59
  Eddie Rester: And Sunday, I got to make fun of LSU people. So that was even better for me.
• 6:03
  Chris McAlilly: Eddie's an Ole Miss fan, and we're recording this a couple days after Ole Miss has beaten LSU, and now they're number four in the country, and so Eddie has to gloat in every setting. So it is what it is.
• 6:17
  Eddie Rester: Yeah, because it won't last long.
• 6:18
  Eddie Rester: Disappointment... Probably by the time this releases, there will be disappointment.
• 6:20
  Chris McAlilly: There will be.
• 6:21
  Eddie Rester: We're not here to talk college football, but Ted, we're here to talk about the Nicene Creed. And we talked, we're leading up to All Saints.
• 6:29
  Eddie Rester: It's an important anniversary of the Nicene Creed this year. You traveled and did some work, I think, around the Nicene Creed, not long after I got to Lovers Lane. And so for folks who are listening, like, I don't...
• 6:47
  Eddie Rester: What's the Nicene Creed? What's the Nicene Creed? Why is it important for us as Christians?
• 6:54
  Ted Campbell: The Nicene Creed is the most widely used Christian creed in the world, hands down. No question about it. Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox churches, the older Protestant churches, including Anglicans and Lutherans and some evangelical churches like one down the street from us here in Dallas, utilize the Nicene Creed every Sunday. So in that sense, that's one reason why it's a ton of definitively important creed.
• 7:27
  Eddie Rester: When was the Creed written? I think when we talk about creed, sometimes people don't understand how old they are, why they were important. We mentioned that it's an anniversary of the Creed this year. So yeah...
• 7:42
  Ted Campbell: I was actually in the town of Nicaea, İznik in Turkey, on the very date, the 1,700th anniversary of the opening of the council that was on May 20. And the council went on for, actually, a couple of months. But really, I think the important thing I'd have to say about this is that the Nicene Creed is just a development of creedal statements that the early church had developed for a long time. In First Corinthians, chapter 15, verses one to four, Paul talks about the basic Christian message that he had received.
• 8:21
  Ted Campbell: And in fact, I wear that on my arm bracelet. That's who I am.
• 8:26
  Ted Campbell: It says "traditi in vobis," "I handed on to y'all," and that is exactly what the Greek New Testament actually says. It is not to you, one person, it is to y'all, to a community. And the faith that he handed on was the simple message about Jesus, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, and that He was buried and that he rose on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures.
• 8:52
  Ted Campbell: And he says, that's what we've always spoken and preached.
• 8:56
  Ted Campbell: Those words, I believe, are older than the gospels in the New Testament. They're from First Corinthians, probably written in the 50s AD.
• 9:04
  Eddie Rester: Yeah, probably.
• 9:05
  Ted Campbell: And he says, "I'm handing on to you what I've already received." So there's something probably come from around 20 years of Christ's death.
• 9:15
  Eddie Rester: When I think what you're pointing out is a
• 9:16
  Ted Campbell: That's right. Yep.
• 9:17
  Eddie Rester: And for Christians who often say, "Well, I'm not a reminder to all of us that Scripture, the church, thrived existed before Scripture came into play, the New Testament.
• 9:25
  Eddie Rester: What would we call the New Testament? Scriptures came into play.
• 9:27
  Eddie Rester: creedal Christian, I'm not a creedal Christian."
• 9:33
  Ted Campbell: Yeah.
• 9:34
  Eddie Rester: It's disconnecting from our history, which was exactly what you're saying. The early church grew and thrived because they were able to profess what was handed down concisely, not just in Corinthians, but in Philippians and other places as well.
• 9:51
  Ted Campbell: Yes.
• 9:52
  Chris McAlilly: I even think in just that statement, "the faith that was handed down to me, I handed it on to y'all," is perhaps a different way in which we would talk about faith than maybe we normally would in a modern kind of American, 21st Century context. A lot of times when we talk about faith, having faith, you know, "I believe," it's in terms of subjective experience that's authentic to me.
• 10:21
  Chris McAlilly: And this is a different way of describing faith. This is a faith that's outside of me, that is perhaps pointing to some kind of objective, metaphysical content that's beyond me, that I receive and then hand on. Would you talk about that distinction a little bit? But I think it's important to understand the nature of what a creed is.
• 10:41
  Ted Campbell: Yeah, I think that's a very good point. The Creed is something that we have received, that we hand on. It's something that's outside of ourselves. It's not just something we make up. It's something that reflects what we believe is true, what the Scriptures believed is true, and so forth. But it's a thing in a community. It's something that a community does to say, "This is what we believe together." It's interesting. The Nicene Creed starts, the way we use it now with, "We believe." The Apostles' Creed usually starts with, "I believe," because the Apostles Creed was used at baptism for a person to profess their faith. "I believe this." But the Nicene Creed says what a community believes. "We believe in God, the Father, the Almighty," etc.
• 11:29
  Chris McAlilly: And what was the question that was emerging in the fourth century that needed clarification that led to this particular Council? I know that there were political dynamics, but in terms of a theological question that was emerging, what was that question?
• 11:44
  Ted Campbell: That's a very good question, because we actually differ over that. And I want to tell you two different points of view. And then, as Professor George Caird used to say in Oxford, "One of these is right and the other is wrong." And the one that I would say first is very commonly said, is that Arius was messed up with Greek philosophy, and Greek philosophy is always this dang dong, this horrible thing, and that he sort of substituted Greek philosophy for true Christian faith. That is what technically scholars call bullshit. It's bullshit because even now...
• 12:27
  Eddie Rester: Is that Latin? Is that Greek?
• 12:28
  Ted Campbell: No, that's Texan.
• 12:28
  Ted Campbell: That's just pure...
• 12:31
  Eddie Rester: Texan, okay.
• 12:32
  Eddie Rester: Yeah. So the
• 12:32
  Ted Campbell: Or southern, maybe, I don't know. But the accusation is that it uses philosophical terms like"substance." Well, the problem with saying that is that the word translated "substance" is a simple, little five letter Greek word, "ousia," and I tell you, it means nothing more specific than "stuff." Whatever the stuff of God the Father is, we're affirming that Christ is the same stuff. We don't know what God's substance or stuff is, but we know whatever God the Father is, the Son is the same stuff.
• 13:24
  Ted Campbell: the pro-Nicaean crowd were claiming is that the stuff of God, you know, whatever God is, God the Father, God the Son also has the same stuff. But the stuff of God is capable, powerful enough to save us. It really comes down to issues of salvation, correct?
• 23:48
  Ted Campbell: Yep. Yep.
• 23:48
  Chris McAlilly: I mean, it's this, you know... So the line that Athanasius ends up claiming is that Christ becomes as we are that we might become as Christ is.
• 23:59
  Chris McAlilly: It's a famous way of thinking about salvation,
• 23:59
  Ted Campbell: Right.
• 24:02
  Ted Campbell: this idea of us participating in the divine life, or this process that we undergo of deification.
• 24:08
  Ted Campbell: That really is what's at... It's safeguarding the grace of Christ to save us, essentially.
• 24:16
  Ted Campbell: And you know, that's a famous, old Methodist thing, to talk about our sanctification, our becoming holy as God is holy. And we can't. We as Christians, we want to say we can't do that apart from Christ, because Christ is God for us as humans. Now, one of the interesting issues related to this, I think, is the question of how... Well, the question of how we relate to...
• 24:46
  Ted Campbell: No. Scratch that. It's the question of whether Christ is a kind of universal, cosmic being who represents all of created beings or humanity. And I'm going to come down on the side of saying just humanity. I don't know how God is going to say Klingons or Wookies or lizards or whatever. What we know is that God became human, truly human, in Christ, and God makes that way of salvation available to us. But how God is going to save Wookies? I'm going to leave that to God.
• 25:27
  Eddie Rester: Well, and the Creed really spells out, I'm glad you're talking about this, because the Creed really spells out, what is it talks about Jesus, the same substance, that he became incarnate. He became enfleshed for us from the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary became truly human. So it's guarding again, what Arius would have said, the true humanity. Because you can't have salvation unless Jesus becomes fully human. But where Arius was sliding the other way was without being fully divine, Jesus doesn't have the power for salvation.
• 26:09
  Ted Campbell: That's right. It's going to take full divinity to empower us and, in the belief of Athanasius and I think, the bishops who met in the council, but it also takes becoming fully human like us.
• 26:24
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah. So...
• 26:25
  Ted Campbell: Back in the...
• 26:25
  Ted Campbell: Sorry.
• 26:27
  Chris McAlilly: No, you're fine.
• 26:27
  Chris McAlilly: The language of the Creed, "I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ." So claiming that Jesus is Lord in addition to God the Father, "the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, Of one Being with the Father; through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven, was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became truly human. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures..." Yeah.
• 27:10
  Ted Campbell: Those words are exactly from First Corinthians 15, "in accordance."
• 27:13
  Chris McAlilly: "He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end." So it doesn't tell the whole story of Jesus, but the essential bits.
• 27:26
  Ted Campbell: Right.
• 27:26
  Chris McAlilly: Pertaining to salvation. And so it's not the end all be all, but it does, I think, for someone who's trying to kind of get a handle on what's the buy in? I mean, it becomes a lens through which you can view some of these sticky points within the scriptures. It becomes a condensed version of the story that can be transferable through time and I think that's one of the ways in which creeds function, it space.
• 27:51
  Chris McAlilly: seems to me. What do you think are some of the other uses? I mean, certainly you've talked about the function of worship, and we've been talking about some of the metaphysical content that the Creed is trying to work out. How else are creeds utilized in the church's history?
• 28:08
  Ted Campbell: They're a basic teaching thing. They're basically used for catechesis.
• 28:10
  Ted Campbell: What you did, I think, in the earliest Christian churches, was you simply memorized the Creed, like the Apostles' Creed.
• 28:18
  Ted Campbell: Really, maybe a simpler format of that, where you say "I believe," so that at the time when you're baptized, you can profess the faith on your own.
• 28:30
  Ted Campbell: There's an interesting story told by Augustine. He talks about this rock star philosopher who decides to become a Christian. And the interesting thing is that when he comes into the church in Rome, we're presuming this is St. John Lateran, which is the congregation that claims to be the inheritor of the first Christian community in Rome, that when he comes into the church, this rock star philosopher, Marius Victorinus, the priests want to make a deal with him. It's like they say,"Dude, we know this is going to be problematic, so if you want to, we can just go back in a corner. You can make your profession of faith to us, not a big deal, and it will all be cool." Well, Marius Victorinus, by this point, is so convinced that he says, "If I deny Christ in front of human beings, Christ will deny me before the Father.
• 29:27
  Ted Campbell: And so I've got to make this profession public." And so he stands up in front of the whole congregation and he recites. It says he recites a set form of words. That's that creed. Except, I think that's really the apostles' Creed, or some Roman version of it, very much like that. And then once he says this, it says the whole crowd just embraces him. They just, they just grab him and sort of say, "Okay, you're our guy now."
• 29:56
  Eddie Rester: Yeah. One of the parts of the creed that we haven't talked about much yet is about the Holy Spirit.
• 30:04
  Ted Campbell: Yeah.
• 30:05
  Eddie Rester: And I remember that this is part of the Creed, as it developed later, it became contentious between the eastern and the western parts of the church. I had Dr. Jeffrey Wainwright, Dr. Wainwright, but we learned about filioque, "and of the Son." And what's interesting to me is that the Creed, although as much as it brought unity later in its history, it also brought the very first significant division of the church, into the Eastern Church, which became the Orthodox Church, and the Western Church, which became the Roman Catholic Church. Talk a little bit about that, because we've been talking about how it brought the church together, but in some ways, it also split the church.
• 30:52
  Ted Campbell: Creeds can be divisive. There's no doubt about that. Yes, and Jeffrey is quite right. There were really two stages of development. There was the Creed as it was, developed in the summer of 325, but that creed simply ended "and in the Holy Spirit." Period. That's all they said about the Holy Spirit.
• 31:15
  Ted Campbell: So within a few decades, they had come around to adding these words "in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father, who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified, who spoke through the prophets," and so forth.
• 31:31
  Ted Campbell: Well, later on, the Western Church, acting just by itself, decides that it's not good enough to say "he proceeds from the Father," that they should say "he proceeds from the Father and the Son." And there's huge debates about this. You know what version of the doctrine of the Trinity is more balanced and so forth. The good news about this, as Jeffrey Wainwright, I'm sure would have told you, is that there's almost complete agreement now that the original form without the words "and the Son" is just as valid as the form that the Western Church came to use, and oddly enough, that most Protestant churches used when they used the Nicene Creed.
• 32:16
  Chris McAlilly: Do you think that, as a matter of, yeah, I don't know, a pragmatic matter of... You know, for the sake of church unity, is we should go with one over the other. You know, should we, as Orthodox, Catholics, Protestants around the world, should we favor one over the other for the sake of bringing the church back together?
• 32:41
  Ted Campbell: Yeah, but it's not a big deal, I think. I favor leaving out the words "and the Son," just because that's not the way the Council of Bishops agreed upon it. And I prefer to say, I prefer to believe what a group of Bishops said, rather than what one bishop, the bishop of Rome, decreed about that. And the Catholic belief is more grounded in the teaching of one bishop, as I see it, rather than the council that adopted the initial words.
• 33:18
  Ted Campbell: But as I say, Catholics and Orthodox are not divided on this point now. They both agree that either form is valid. I would prefer, if we're going to put it in the hymnal, to leave out "and the Son," and sometimes I just take a deep breath at that point when I'm saying the Creed.
• 33:34
  Eddie Rester: Next time we use the Nicene Creed, I'm going to watch you, Ted, just make sure how you're saying it. Yeah.
• 33:40
  Chris McAlilly: What about...
• 33:40
  Chris McAlilly: What grounds the claim that Christ, not just Christ is Lord, but that, you know what are the scriptural groundings for this idea that the Spirit is also the Lord and giver of life?
• 33:55
  Ted Campbell: It's a political claim. You know, the word is"kyrios," and kyrios is what they used to describe the Emperor. And I think it was a way of saying there is no human government that we can, in the end, submit to. Yes, we have to submit to governments and be good citizens as we can, as Paul says in Romans. But on the other hand, there is no kyrios but This is what the German theologians who opposed Hitler Christ.
• 34:25
  Ted Campbell: finally came to, and what they called the Barmen Declaration.
• 34:29
  Ted Campbell: They just had to come out and say, there is no Fuhrer but Jesus Christ, that you can't go that far with a political leader. And I think to call the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit "kyrios," the Lord, is a way of saying there's an absoluteness to God's rule that doesn't apply to any human authority.
• 34:52
  Eddie Rester: I think that it bears saying that before the church kind of became more integrated into the Roman world, there was a lot of suspicion of Christians because of what you're talking about. There are some recorded history, and you can correct me if I'm wrong on that, of purges of the Roman army when people became Christian because they weren't sure if they would actually follow what the Emperor wanted, or what the ruler of that set of Centurions would want, simply because of that proclamation of who their Lord was.
• 35:32
  Ted Campbell: Yes, one of the issues for early Christians was that if you entered the Roman military and certain other professions, you were expected to participate in Roman religious ceremonies in which you honored the Emperor. And the way you did that was you took a pinch of incense and put that in the burner in front of the image of the emperor that indicated you were you were referencing them as Lord, and most of the Christians refused to do that.
• 36:03
  Ted Campbell: They simply could not give that degree of devotion to any person, anything other than God.
• 36:12
  Chris McAlilly: What about the...
• 36:14
  Ted Campbell: Jews, too. But Jews had been given an exception to that rule.
• 36:19
  Chris McAlilly: So, you know, I think one of the things that you sometimes hear is, I mean, we started the conversation talking about some of the political, er, the theological or metaphysical claims of the Creed, and we kind of, then, you know, talked about how the Creed has its basis in Scripture. And there were creedal statements that preceded the fourth century, and the work that was done at the Nicene, the Council of Nicaea. They're also thinking through the lens, I mean, there's the political dimension. I wonder if you could just kind of talk us through that.
• 36:50
  Ted Campbell: Yes, that's true, and it's, I think that's undeniably true that when the council met, Constantine, the Emperor, still had not been baptized as a Christian. In fact, he was not baptized until he was on his deathbed. But he saw Christianity for the first time as a kind of a glue that could hold the empire together.
• 37:12
  Ted Campbell: And yet, as soon as he becomes fully emperor--that means there had been co-emperors up to this point--but when he becomes the sole emperor, suddenly he's presented with this huge division within Christianity.
• 37:29
  Ted Campbell: So I think, like a lot of politicians, Constantine's real interest here is to say, in a sense, I don't care what you agree to, but you just agree on something, so that we can put the empire together. Now, what stands against that is he actually had fairly Arian leanings. His advisors were Arians, and he was baptized in on his deathbed by one of the Arian leaders. So you can make a case there that he had more, maybe more theological integrity than we'd give him credit for, but still, my sense of it is he really wants unity in the empire, and he doesn't want the church to be a dividing factor.
• 38:12
  Eddie Rester: We've talked about Arius, and talk about what happened to Arius, post Nicaea.
• 38:24
  Ted Campbell: Gosh, what happened to him? He was excommunicated by most of the churches. So... I don't know.
• 38:36
  Ted Campbell: What...
• 38:36
  Eddie Rester: Yeah, I think what I vaguely remember is that he really was kind of pushed out. I mean, the Church, in its early centuries didn't have a lot of grace for heretics or people they branded as non-Orthodox, and so I think you're right. I think he got pushed out, excommunicated, but I don't think it was as harsh for him, as it was for others who had papers burned, families chased away, and all that. But I could be wrong... Somebody out there listening...
• 39:09
  Ted Campbell: No, well, that makes sense, but I wouldn't want this to be part of the recording. But Eddie, it makes sense because at this point, the Empire itself is not Christian.
• 39:23
  Ted Campbell: I mean...
• 39:23
  Eddie Rester: Right.
• 39:23
  Ted Campbell: Students very often come to my classes with this idea that Constantine makes the empire Christian. Well, he doesn't. He allows toleration, and that's, in my view, a very, very good thing, but he wants, he seems to want, deep down toleration that has a sort of agreement that's going to help the state remain together, you know.
• 39:46
  Chris McAlilly: I do think that, I mean, Arius kind of comes in and out of favor depending on who's, you know, who he's around and who's in power. I mean, there's the bishop that I vaguely remember supporting him was Eusebius, but I, you know, and so he found a place to be, even in quote, exile.
• 40:08
  Chris McAlilly: I think that there... I think as I understand the conversation that's emerged over the last 50 years among folks that are really interested in these questions around trinitarian theology that emerged out of the fourth century is that there are these deeper tensions, that are not... I mean, you can tell the story as, like, this person was in, this person out. Arius, you know, is the heretic, and Athanasius is the Orthodox hero.
• 40:34
  Chris McAlilly: But the real story is much more complex than that, and these tensions are very much embedded in certain Christian cultures.
• 40:42
  Chris McAlilly: And it's even embedded in the Scripture, as we try to tease out, you know, what does it mean to claim, at the same time, that Jesus is both divine and human?
• 40:52
  Chris McAlilly: And those are really, really important theological questions, even if the motivations of the emperor was just, you know, to try to keep the peace. And so I think sometimes... I guess my point in kind of bringing up the political dimension is to say, yes, there is a political dimension, and the motivations of actors in a political environment are never completely clean.
• 41:16
  Ted Campbell: Do you think so?
• 41:18
  Chris McAlilly: But that also doesn't... Sometimes people will use that, that...
• 41:24
  Ted Campbell: Yes, to say that politics is bad.
• 41:26
  Chris McAlilly: To say all creeds are bad. This creed is bad. It needs to be thrown out.
• 41:28
  Chris McAlilly: I just don't think that that...
• 41:31
  Chris McAlilly: I mean, I... How do you maintain faith in a creed, even if it has the mud of human politics on it?
• 41:38
  Chris McAlilly: Like, how do you make that work in your mind, you know, as you think about your own kind of convictions? And why would you continue to stay committed to a creed, even if that's a part of its origin?
• 41:53
  Ted Campbell: Yeah, that's a really good question, and I struggle with that, because I'm very uncomfortable in political situations. So I have been to two General Conferences, and I would swear that by the end of the second when I heard the voice of God saying, "Ted Campbell, this is not good for your spiritual health." It just... Just something about it is just icky. It drives me crazy, and I'm better in front of my students or talking about what I know and so forth.
• 42:29
  Ted Campbell: And yet, as But you're right. Churches always have political processes, not even the ones that say they're congregational and so forth. There's no doubt about it. Second Baptist Church in Houston right now is torn up because the pastor wanted the congregation to vote to say that the congregation itself no longer would have any power on critical decisions. Well, that's, as you know, that's a complete contradiction of Baptist ecclesiology and church practice and so forth. This guy wants to be a bishop or a Pope or something like that.
• 43:55
  Chris McAlilly: It does.
• 43:57
  Ted Campbell: I'm not trying to get away from it because you're absolutely...
• 44:03
  Chris McAlilly: No, I think it's fine. So then if, you know, politics is something that you kind of hold your nose in those environments, why stay committed to a creed that was produced through a political process?
• 44:15
  Ted Campbell: Yeah, yeah. And the answer is, I think--I do have an answer for that, the Creed is authoritative, not because a Council of Bishops agreed upon it. There were hundreds of councils, very few of them are recorded as having any authority. But it's what we call reception, that is to say, it's not just that bishops got together and made a decision, but churches, over a period of decades and years and centuries, said yes, after all, we consent to that. And I would say that's the real authority of councils that lies more in the real reception of the teaching than in one bishop, or even a group of bishops that decides upon that.
• 45:07
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah. So one of the things I learned as I was doing some research on this, as I was thinking about it, there's a writer named Lewis Ayers who writes a lot of the fourth century, either Anglican, maybe Roman Catholic theologian, historical theologian. And one of the things that he said is that after Nicaea there was council after council after council.
• 45:30
  Ted Campbell: There was.
• 45:31
  Chris McAlilly: And each time they just, they reaffirmed. In 381, in Constantinople, you have this kind of augmentation of the Creed, you know, affirming the Spirit is Lord and Giver of Life. But after that, there's this affirmation, reaffirmation, reaffirmation at every council for seven straight councils. And then there was a debate in the seventh council about whether, because it's such a biblical number, about whether there should be any more councils, you know, because it was seven forward from Nicaea. And I kind of wish they had just decided no more councils. But nevertheless, it's in the reception, in the reaffirmation of the Creed, that this authoritative dimension of it takes hold. That makes good sense to me. I appreciate that perspective.
• 46:20
  Ted Campbell: It's funny, but there was some early development in the Evangelical Church and the United Brethren in Christ, in both of their histories, they both came to the points where they said, all right, we've got a doctrinal statement, and now we're going to change it this one last time. And then we're going to forbid any further changes to it. And then 20 or 30 years later, they come back and alter it, because they've got to change something about it. So, so yeah.
• 46:50
  Ted Campbell: But to me, it's not just councils that continually affirm something. It's worship. It's the fact that that Creed is used in worship over and over and over, through the centuries, and ordinary Christians have sat there and said those words over and over. To me, that's partly what gives it great authority.
• 47:11
  Chris McAlilly: And it's not only the word "said," it's also the word "sung," you kno. I mean I think about the settings of the Creed to music. Both Martin Luther does this, Bach does this, and it becomes part of the, ah, not just something that said, that gives you kind of guardrails or grammar for thinking about what you can and can't say about God, but it becomes the kind of thing that kind of leads you up in the direction of worship, reorienting you and pointing you towards God. Sorry, Eddie, I jumped in front of you.
• 47:43
  Eddie Rester: No, I just, this has been great for me. And Ted, I appreciate you taking some time to talk about this with us.
• 47:50
  Eddie Rester: Sometimes people think that the creeds are just these dusty old things that we have to muddle our way through in worship. And yet, what you reminded us of is that they exist for a powerful
• 48:03
  reason: to draw us together and to point us forward, as we worship, as we profess our faith, as we hold together in unity. So I just appreciate you spending some time with us
• 48:14
  Ted Campbell: Let me say one more thing, and I'm going to today. Thank you.
• 48:16
  Ted Campbell: give a little pause before this and then try to say it, so you can edit it in wherever you want, if you want to. CS Lewis once said that creeds are not God, obviously, but creeds are like a road map put together by people, maybe hundreds and thousands of people, who knew the way to God, and kind of, I'm paraphrasing, but knew the pitfalls on the way to worship God and to be saved through Christ, and that's why they're useful for us, because they are the roadmap that's been followed in the past.
• 48:58
  Chris McAlilly: I think that's a great place to set it down.
• 49:01
  Ted Campbell: And that's my opinion.
• 49:02
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah, no, I think that's a great place to set it down, Ted. Thank you so much for your time. Thanks for being with us.
• 49:06
  Ted Campbell: Yeah, thank you.
• 49:07
  Chris McAlilly: Really appreciate the conversation.
• 49:09
  Eddie Rester: [OUTRO] Thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed the the best way to help us is to like, subscribe, or leave a review.
• 49:17
  Chris McAlilly: If you would like to support this work financially, or if you have an idea for a future guest, you can go to theweightpodcast.com. [END OUTRO]