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The Healthy Christian Leader - Rob Laidlaw | Discipleship Goals · Leadership Podcasts

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Dwight Hammerman, and this is the healthy question leadership.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a second generation design built on conductor in Half-Man Open Project.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: And for the past 20 years, I've served as the director of the urban ministry network.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: One of my greatest assets in developing as a leader in marketplace and military has been learning from the journey of other leaders.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: As the host of the Healthy Christian Leader Joe, it is my privilege to invite you into today's conversation with a leader who will share a bit of their life and experience with us.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: We hope that it will encourage you, challenge you, and equip you as a leader and Christ follower.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: Let's introduce our guest for the day.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: Well, hello, friends, and welcome to the Healthy Christian Leader.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Dwight Habermell, and I have our guest today, Rob Laidlaw.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: Rob, great to have you on the program.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me back again.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you bet.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: You're always just uh such a pleasure to have on the program.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um Rob, you have been pastoring now for over 30 years.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's uh hard to believe.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you don't look old, so there you go.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I I know how physically active you are hiking around our province, so you're doing great.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um you have pastored for those years.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: You also have a ministry called Strategic Discipleship.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, strategicdiscipleship.com, and there we host resources, discipleship resources for churches, and and most of it's for free.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think that's such an amazing thing, Rob, is that you've had that kingdom vision to just keep empowering the church uh wherever the church is found with resources, and uh it it's a blessing.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I I I mean the church that I was a part of gave me time in the course of ministry to go off and create resources that we are going to use for our church, but then also to share for any other churches that want to benefit from it.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I thought, well, if the church is freeing me to be able to do this, then we want to make this available for other churches for free, just so the kingdom of God moves forward and it can be stronger and more equipped.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we talked in our last session about uh discipleship and we defined it.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you can begin with a little bit of a recap.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: So essentially what we said is discipleship is not a ministry of the church, it is the ministry of the church.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: Everything we do is discipleship.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it comes right from Jesus' mandate.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: Go into all the world, make disciples.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: So that is our one job description.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: So everything that the church does should fit into this a discipleship paradigm.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so uh this the struggle is uh really defining discipleship in a practical level.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean every church does it.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: Uh every church will have, you know, you know, our job is to make disciples who make disciples who make disciples in some format.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: That that's what it is.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: We wanted a definition that was a little bit more clear and measurable.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: So we came up with a definition for discipleship that says a disciple is a baptized follower of Jesus who devotes himself or herself, but this idea of devoting, I'm actually devoting my life to this.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: This is not just a fringe thing, it's not what I do in my spare time through the week.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm devoting my life to the teachings, to the mission and the ministry and the leadership of Jesus, uh, with the understanding that I am going to assume increasing responsibility, both for my own personal growth, but also for the spiritual growth of other people and for the ministry of the local church, that this is a church I belong to, I'm responsible for it, and for the global spread of the gospel, because it's go into all the world-making disciples.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: When what you're talking about really uh is lordship in people's lives, a growing lordship, a growing authority that Christ has in our lives.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: Well, uh Jesus came for a mission, and that mission is not over.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh because the mission is to take what he's accomplished for us through his death and resurrection and the indwelling of his spirit to transform us into children of God, and we're to to help now people grow as children of God into maturity, but then also to take that message out to the world saying, God is inviting you to be adopted as one of his children.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: So this really is to be the focus of our lives.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, our jobs are there merely to support us uh while we do the main thing.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: It'd be like going off as a missionary to some land, but you you go as a tent maker missionary, like in other words, you go as a doctor or as an engineer, but that's just the means to support you when you go into that land to do kingdom building.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: But if if your job starts overriding your time and your focus and your energy and you've got nothing left, well then the tables have flipped.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: So what we're encouraging people to do is realize, no, you have as as soon as you become a disciple of Jesus, as soon as you're uh infilled with his spirit and become a child of God, you now have a new job description, a new life focus.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: Now God will provide you with a job and with a family and relationships and a church community to support you as you carry out your role as a disciple maker.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's so good, Rob.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, as one who is called to ministry and business, as many of our viewers know, uh we have a design build company that I run with 50 employees.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: It keeps you busy.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: It is a real art or a real discipline, I guess is the better word, to say that you know uh God's mission, his lordship, uh his reign, and primary focus stays in the the primary dominant position.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh because it's so easy to uh become overwhelmed with all that there is to do.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: I love what the Apostle Paul says in Philippians chapter one.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: He's in prison because he's been telling people it's a good idea to know Jesus and to receive eternal life through Jesus.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so now he's been beaten, he's been thrown into prison, potentially waiting his death sentence.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: And he he raises this tension.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: He says, Um, I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far, but what should I choose?
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: So, in other words, if if I had any, if I had my preferences, he said, I'd rather just be away from this world, and I'd rather be with Jesus, where everything is perfect, and I will be made fully perfect, and and and I'll experience all the glories of heaven.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: And saying, I would much rather be there than here in this world, in prison, being beaten, being abandoned by other Christian leaders, being mocked and ridiculed.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: He said, I'd much rather be with Christ, which is better by far.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: But he says, but but if I stick around, that will be actually better for you and for your joy in the faith.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: In other words, if by me sticking around, I can disciple you into a deeper relationship with Jesus.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's interesting because many Christians compartmentalize their life.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: Here's my church life, here's my secular life, here's my you know, recreational life.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: And they're managed in boxes where you know Jesus is Lord over it all.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: And when we bring the kingdom, we're actually um advancing the God's kingdom against opposition of you know the enemy and his resistance of what God wants to do in the earth.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: So that you can understand why Paul would actually have that kind of heart.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's really learning to subject everything we do under our discipleship mandate.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: That really, I am a disciple of Jesus, and now that should influence everything that I do and everything I accomplish.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I I for my own hobby, I go bouldering, uh, do a bit of rock climbing.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: But even when I'm going to the bouldering gym, I'm constantly asking God, is there someone you want me to engage with?
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: And as a result, there's this one individual I've been uh who's a self-proclaimed atheist, and he and I have been having deep, meaningful conversations and uh being able to speak into each other's lives.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: And another young woman who's starting to re-explore church, and we're gonna be meeting with her to go through some of her questions and go deeper with her, and and because I really want to understand that everything I do has to be subjugated to this uh concept of my my life mandate of being a disciple who goes and represents Jesus to others, helping them become disciples and followers of Jesus.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: Now that's so good.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: Rob, you often talk about six areas of discipleship.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: What's that all about?
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so when we started trying to think through uh what does a disciple look like?
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh how how do we know if we've discipled someone to a point of uh where we can send them out to be a kingdom influencer?
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: So, in other words, if I was going to send someone out as a church planter or part of a church planting team, what are all the things we would want to have built into their life so that we could send them with confidence and with competence?
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so we sort of identified six different areas.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the first area is character.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh what character do we want them to have?
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so we we created a list uh uh of different things.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I mean we could make this list much bigger, but number one, we just want them, people they love Jesus and they have a love for others.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: That they they've learned what it means to be spirit-filled and spirit-led, and that that reflects in them having a servant heart.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, hey, I will do whatever it takes to build you up, to, to serve and and to make the church be everything it needs to be, and just and to love you.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: And we we talk about uh having integrity, we talk about the are you someone who's respected in your community and in your workplace.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: So we we start creating the this long list of character traits that we want to help people work through.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um so so ideally at the end of our four to five year period of discipleship process, we want them to look more like Jesus in their character.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh secondly, and this is where most people camp out when it comes to discipleship, is there's things that people need to know.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh they they need to know the basics of salvation, they they need to know certain theologies.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so we start listening now.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: What is everything that we want someone to know or to grapple with in this four to five-year period of time?
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so then we we we created them those into four phases and uh and say, okay, here's four phases of of knowledge that we want them to embrace.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: And we start uh so in the first phase, it's really understanding the gospel and understanding the basics of like prayer and and baptism and the lordship of Jesus and uh Bible reading and and church as community, but then also uh a good grasp of what what was Jesus' ministry all about when he was on earth?
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: What did he do in those three years?
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, what are the types of things that he did that we should be doing as well?
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: Phase two moves more into uh helping them develop spiritual disciplines of Bible reading, praying, praying out loud, um, uh stewardship of God's resources.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: But then we also go into uh understanding our spiritual identity.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: We spend 13 weeks battling with uh the lies that we tend to embrace of where our value and our worth and our significance comes from, and then we we compare that to the truth that God wants to speak that sets us free.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: Because the lies bring bondage and they manipulate our lives and distort our relationships.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: But here's the truth Jesus wants to speak into those lies to set us free from the lies.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: So we really spend time on our identity.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: Phase three, we get more into our mission, we talk about um sharing our faith, we talk about spiritual warfare, but then we also spend a lot of time saying, what does it really mean to submit to Jesus and to submit to others?
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Ephesians says submit uh submit to one another.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: So what does that mean and how do we do that?
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: And what are the challenges to that?
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um and just talking through issues of judgment and forgiveness.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um phase four goes into some deeper stuff of well, how do you study the Bible really in-depthly?
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: And then what does it mean for you really to be now a ruler?
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: If we're going to send you out as a kingdom ruler, a kingdom influencer, well, what does that mean and what does that look like?
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: And in the process of doing that, how do you how do you show grace, but also present truth?
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we want to talk about sexuality, we want to talk about church leadership, so things like that.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: So there's content we want people to get.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: And um and we've mapped out four years of curriculum.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and again, that four years of curriculum is for free.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: But again, curriculum is not discipleship, it is just one component of discipleship.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: We also want to build into their lives spiritual disciplines uh of Bible reading, of prayer, of uh uh tithing, of fasting, meditation.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: The fourth area is community.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: How do you actually turn this eclectic group of people?
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I always tell our own church lists, you you are such an eclectic group of people.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: You are you are so diverse in who you are, and and really, in and of yourselves, this group would never come together because of their commonality.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: So, how do we become a family?
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so we're we're talking through that a fair bit as far as how can we become a community and what's your role in this in this community and and and how can you help people feel part of this community.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the fifth area is ministry.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: We want people to understand that God has gifted them in an area of ministry.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: They have an area of impact that they are uniquely designed for.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: And if if they're not using that, um, then we as a church family are hindered.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's like we've tied one arm behind our back.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um and but also they don't get to experience the thrill of contribution.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the significance that he's wired them for, created them for, they don't get to experience the fulfillment of that and the fruit of that.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so their spiritual life then is less uh exciting and it's dull and it's boring.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: So we really want people to start engaging in ministry and and experiencing that.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then finally, the the sixth area is is mission.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: We want people to understand, no, we're here on a mission.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: Your family is to be on mission.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: We as a church are to be on mission.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: There is an objective that Jesus has given us.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: We are to go and make disciples of all nations.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: So not just our own family, not just our church, not our community, but of all nations.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: And we need to be thinking through how are we going to accomplish that?
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: So so even as uh our small little church plant, we want to be thinking through how are we having impact influence in an unreached people group?
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: How can we be getting the gospel to a place where it is not yet?
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: And we want that to be part of our strategy as a church as well.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: So you've touched on this a little bit through this session and also the previous session, but what are your overarching goals in in uh this?
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: Well, uh our church mission statement is uh called to know equipped to go.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: We want people to know Jesus.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: We want him, we want them to know the word.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: We we want them to know the power of prayer, we want them to know the family of God.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so as we grow in our understanding and knowledge of Jesus, now in that knowledge we are being transformed and we are being equipped to go and um and and we're being sent.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: So this idea of going into all the world, well, we want people, once they get to the point, we want them to go.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: Now, going could be uh off to a different land, it could be to church plant, or it could be going in our community.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: But while we're here, what it means is they are assuming responsibility for the advancement of the gospel wherever they're at.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: So really Matthew 28 is as you go or as you're going, make disciples.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: So wherever they're going, we want them having a discipleship focus that everything they do fits into their discipleship objective of their surrender and growth in Jesus, but also helping others grow in a relationship with Jesus.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what you're you're drawing out something that I think is so important, you know, one of the things that I've often said of people who come to Christ, you know, it's we sometimes in the church separate evangelism and discipleship, but the scripture says, go and make disciples of all nations.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: And really what you're talking about is get to the place where there's overflow and then overflow into the community in culturally relevant ways in which uh people can understand the message of the gospel.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and to understand that when you become a disciple, you're immediately a disciple maker.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh uh it's not like someone becomes goes through our discipleship process and at the end of that four or five year period.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: You get the sticker and sticker, and now you're a disciple maker and go.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: No, it day one, you become a disciple maker.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yes, we are going to equip you with competence and confidence uh over this next four to five year period so we can send you out with everything we think you need.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: But even on day one of coming to Christ, uh you can start discipling others.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: You can share with them what you already know.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: You might not know much, but what you do know, you can share.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, we encourage you to be doing that right from the get-go.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: So even people entering into phase one, we we want them sharing their faith.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and so we we'll always have like two questions to start off.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: Uh uh, our our time is saying, hey, how's your past week gone?
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, what's God been doing in your life this past week?
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: And then the second question is, uh, so what sort of God conversations have you had?
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so I I want to be doing that right in our right at the beginning because I want them to start their journey with an understanding that, hey, what you have, you can share.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you don't have to worry that you don't you don't have all this yet, you don't have all this knowledge, but what you do have, you can share that.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so start start simple, start small, and let's start being a disciple maker right from the get-go.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's so good.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: Now, my next question is kind of a repeat from uh our last program, but the reality is it bears uh, you know, it's worthy of repeating.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and many of our listeners today may have not heard the podcast.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: And by the way, if you haven't heard the previous podcast, go find it online and go back and listen to it again.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, if you're listening by radio, you can find it at the Healthy Christian Leader podcast.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, if you want to go to um the radio station website, they also have it.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: It would seem to me that in the discipleship approach that you're talking about, you know.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: Often when we think of discipleship, I know when I was a kid, it was like this book you pulled out.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: And uh you work through this workbook, and when you're done, you pass, go, and you're on to the next thing.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: So how does that look how does your approach with this look different than what I experienced growing up?
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well, again, when we were trying to explore what does it even really mean to disciple people and and how did Jesus do it?
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: We realized that Jesus used three environments.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the first environment was what we call the large group environment.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's him preaching to the masses.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that's when it was sort of an open forum and anyone could could come in and he just preached.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: He preached the message.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: And that was very power powerful and it had a role to play.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: But Jesus knew that if he was really going to advance the kingdom and spread the message, he really needed to start really honing in more deeply.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's where he pulled together a group of 12 men and he was going to start investing in their life, and that's where they're going to hang out with him and do life with him.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: And and so that's what I call sort of the small group environment.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's your your 10 to 12 or 10 to 14 sort of small group of people that are going to actually journey together through life.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: Now, that might, in our scenario, that's maybe us a midweek Bible study, but it's a group coming together saying, We're going to grow and journey together, we're going to hold each other accountable, we're going to encourage each other, we're going to pray for each other.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: So even again, last night in our small group, I was saying to our small group, like, in this next season, as you consider where what Jesus looks like and where you're at, pinpoint one of the gap areas.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: What Aspect of your life doesn't look like Jesus' life as far as uh his character or as far as what he did.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: And what is one area in this next season you would like to grow in?
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: And and and so let's share that.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: Now let's pray for each other, but let's keep praying for that.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: And later today I'm gonna be sending out an email with all those uh things that people share it.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: I would like to grow in my in my spiritual journey in this area saying, now we're gonna help you do that over this next year.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: So small groups are really good for that.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: Small groups can be a little bit though too big at times to share the really deeper stuff.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: You don't necessarily want to share that with a large group of people.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: There's maybe maybe one or two others that you want to share the deeper stuff.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's where we also know is Jesus had a micro group.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: So he had a large group, the small group, and a micro group.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: And the micro group was Peter, James, and John.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: And he just honed in specifically on them.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: And they they really bonded at a at a deeper level and they were trained at the deeper level.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: They had experiences that the others didn't have, and Jesus really invested in them specifically.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so we're looking at those three environments saying, yeah, I think probably really to be effective, people need to be experiencing all three environments.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: They need the large group environment, the Sunday morning worship time or whenever it is.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: They probably need a group of about 12 people, but then they probably need a micro group too, where they can just go a little bit deeper.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: People can ask them really the tough questions that they need to be asked to stay on the true and narrow way.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: So uh yeah, so we really encourage churches to have all three levels of engagement.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: Now that can be harder, like even right now, our our microgroups, they had been stronger at one point, they're probably less strong now.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: We're giving it a bit of breathing space, but we're gonna come back to it because we do believe it's really beneficial.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so churches have to measure what can they do, the resources, the time, and stuff like that.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: But um, but I think really to aim for having these three environments for people is really crucial for their their personal growth.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus had those three environments for a reason.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: And it's probably worth us thinking about.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: Rob, just we've got a couple of minutes left, but you know, we know that the enemy opposes the mission of God in the earth.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we call that spiritual battle.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: And spiritual battle comes up when we try to advance God's kingdom often.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um what kinds of opposition do you find in building discipleship in the church?
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: Do you find that it's more of, you know, the enemy just makes us really busy and we can't uh get around to it, or do you find it is uh other things that come in the way?
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: I I think the the bottom line critical issue is what I understand my life is about.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: Uh most of us, even though we're Christians, we still think my life is about just getting through this life.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: I have my job, I have my family, man, I'm busy, I'm running to and fro, and and and that becomes our life, and church just becomes a component of our life.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: What I really am working at is trying to help people reframe what their life is all about.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like I said before, is that Christ Paul said for me to live is Christ.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: In other words, discipleship defines who I am and what my life focus is to be.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's dying to self.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it's dying to the unimportant things.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the biggest challenge we have probably with people growing, and I think this is true in all churches, it's not evil things, it's good things.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's sports and it's family events, and it's all, but it's all these things that distract us from doing the main things.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's so good.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so the challenge I think for us is saying, how can I, how can I personally, even for myself, get to the point where I die to the unimportant things and I I laser focus my thoughts on saying, I'm called to go and make disciples of of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything Jesus has commanded.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's so good.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: That is what my life is to be about.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: And otherwise, why am I here?
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: Why why doesn't God just zap me up to heaven?
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm here for that purpose, and I need to make sure that everything I do fits into that purpose, and that that purpose just isn't one of many purposes.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: It is the purpose, and everything else has to be subjected to that in some way.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: Rob, we need to find the space to have you come back and share more.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: This has been so good.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: Rob Laidlaw, uh, 30 years in ministry and counting.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but strategic discipleship, it's a great tool.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: Check it out online, and we'll see you next time on the Healthy Christian Leader.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thanks for joining this conversation.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: I trust that you were encouraged and challenged by the stories and experiences that were shared today.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: Would you join us next week?
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: You can find new episodes weekly in video form on the Erin Ministries YouTube page and in audio form wherever you get your podcast.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: Erin Ministries is an interdenominational network of friends in ministry with a mission to foster healthy Christian leadership.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: Check out our website, Erin Ministries.com for more information and resources and on how you can donate to our ministry and potentially start a healthy Christian leader gathering in your area for until we meet again.