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“Is Facebook killing people?” (with Sen. Brian Schatz) · Pod Save America

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: I'm Jon Lovett.
• 0:22
  Speaker 3: I'm Tommy Vittorio. Why do you say it like that?
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: I don't know how I said it.
• 0:27
  Speaker 3: Leave it in.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: What did I say? I don't know. I have a tickle.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: I have a tickle. There's a gay cold going around.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: There really was. There was a gay pride cold.
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: But you are COVID negative.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: Many times. Many, many tests ever since.
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: On today's show, the White House calls out Facebook for
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: spreading misinformation about vaccines. Hawaii Senator Brian Schatz. talks to
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: Tommy and me about climate change, immigration, voting rights, and
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: his tweeting habit. And later, we answer a few of
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: your questions. Let's get right to the news. The Delta
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: variant of COVID-19 is currently tearing through unvaccinated populations around
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: the world and here in the United States, where about
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: 43% of eligible Americans still haven't gotten their first shot.
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: People's refusal to get vaccinated is leading to more hospitalizations,
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: more deaths, and the return of restrictions in places like
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: here in Los Angeles. where masks are once again required
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: for public indoor settings. The Biden administration is now saying
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: that one reason people aren't getting their shots is because
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: of the misinformation being spread on social media platforms like Facebook.
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: We heard it from White House Chief of Staff Ron Klain,
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: who told Kara Swisher a few weeks ago that unvaccinated
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: focus groups keep repeating vaccine misinformation that they say they
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: saw on Facebook. We heard it on Thursday from Surgeon
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: General Vivek Murthy, who issued the first public health advisory
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: of his tenure on health misinformation on We heard it
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: on Friday from White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki, and
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: we heard it from President Biden himself in response to
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: a reporter's question on the topic. Here are some clips
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: of the last three people I mentioned.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: My worry is that all this misinformation that's floating around
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: is having a real cost that can be measured in
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: lives lost.
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: And that is just tragic.
• 2:03
  Speaker 4: There's about 12 people who are producing 65 percent of
• 2:07
  Speaker 4: anti-vaccine misinformation on social media platforms. All of them remain
• 2:11
  Speaker 4: active on Facebook, despite some even being banned on other platforms,
• 2:15
  Speaker 4: including Facebook, ones that Facebook owns.
• 2:19
  Speaker 5: What's your message to platforms like Facebook? They're killing people.
• 2:28
  Speaker 5: I mean, it really, look, the only pandemic we have
• 2:30
  Speaker 5: is among the unvaccinated. And they're killing people.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: So Facebook responded in a rather whiny blog post that
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: their data shows 85% of U.S. Facebook users have been
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: or want to be vaccinated. They said they've removed over
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: 18 million instances of COVID-19 misinformation since the pandemic began,
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: and they've prohibited the purchase of ads that include false
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: information about vaccines. Biden then clarified his remarks this morning,
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: Monday morning, saying, quote, Facebook isn't killing people. My hope
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: is that they would do something about the misinformation. That's
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: what I meant.
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: Facebook isn't killing people. Mark Zuckerberg is killing people.
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, just to be more specific, I want to clarify
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: my comments. Mark and Cheryl themselves are out there killing people.
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: COVID is killing people. Facebook is spreading COVID.
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: Tommy, how much blame do you think Facebook deserves here?
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: I mean, some part of it. I think I found
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: the Facebook response to be shockingly childish. They tried to
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: throw it into a political frame and suggest this was
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: about meeting a political goal. When I think, you know,
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: it's about saving lives and getting people good information, you know,
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: Before COVID existed, the World Health Organization listed vaccine hesitancy
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: as one of the top 10 threats to global health.
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: It's not a new problem because for years, Facebook, Twitter,
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: other social media sites have allowed vaccine misinformation to spread.
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: They also helped it spread. If you joined like a
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: natural parenting group, you would often get algorithmically shown a
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: suggestion that you join an anti-vaccine group. So they've helped
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: these groups grow. They've helped them organize. This is a
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: long-term problem. It's not just specific to COVID. Now, so
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: it's hard to really delineate like what their share of
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: the blame is, but it's notable that they're happy to
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: offer you reams and reams of information about all the
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: ways they're helping people get good information. And when you
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: ask them to provide information about who is seeing vaccine
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: misinformation on their site, they refuse to present any data
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: or give it to researchers or do anything. So, you know,
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: clearly like hearing anecdotally in polling focus groups that people
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: are getting bad info and getting scared about the vaccine
• 4:28
  Speaker 3: on Facebook.
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: Lovett, what do you think?
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, they've spent a very long time kind
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: of priming the conspiratorial pump. That's outright misinformation and falsehoods,
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: but that's also just sort of encouraging conspiratorial communities to
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: form on a host of different issues and to elevate
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: some of the most conspiratorial thinkers in our politics, mostly
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: from the right wing. And there is plenty of misinformation
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: they have taken down. But when you go and look
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: at what stays up, no, it is, it is sometimes
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: hard to identify a brazen lie, but just asking questions,
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: just sowing misinformation, just sharing misleading statistics. Like that's, that
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: is the kind of, um, that is the like bread
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: and butter of countless conspiracy theorists. And to Facebook's and
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: to Facebook's point, That lives on Facebook, that lives off Facebook.
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: It's a huge societal problem, but Facebook is a massive
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: part of how people get and share information. And so
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: it is a big problem on Facebook. Facebook talks about
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: the billions and billions of pieces of positive, good information
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: people have received. To Tommy's point, they will never tell
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: you the other half of that equation. They know how
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: many pieces of misinformation they've taken down. They could very
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: easily tell us how many people saw it before that happened,
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: but they won't.
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so one thing we know for sure is that
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: the country is awash in misinformation about Right. One in
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: five Americans, according to a YouGov poll, believe that it's
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: definitely true or probably true that there's a microchip inside
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: the COVID-19 vaccines. 30 to 44 year olds were the
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: most likely age group to believe that. So this is
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: not something, Lovett, that we can just blame on the
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: baby boomers, which I know you always love to do.
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: Look, a millennial is just a baby boomer waiting to happen.
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: This is the reality of the situation.
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: 20% think there's a fucking microchip in the COVID vaccine.
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: So we know the misinformation exists. And obviously, Facebook is
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: one of the biggest social media platform in the world.
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: On Friday, the day this all went down, the top
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: Facebook post about vaccines in the United States was from
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: Marjorie Taylor Greene. falsely stating that the vaccines are not
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: FDA approved. That was the number one post on Friday,
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: the day all this went down, and then Facebook started
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: complaining about it. So, I mean, it's really like Facebook
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: is the sort of weapon of choice, but the ammo
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: comes from Tucker Carlson, Candace Owens, Republican politicians. Donald Trump
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: is now flirting with it over the weekend. He had
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: a statement, you know, saying maybe people aren't taking it
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: because they don't trust Joe Biden, you know, so he's
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: dipping into it too. But Facebook certainly helps spread it.
• 6:55
  Speaker 3: Here's one thing I think that is indisputable is that
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: their response is incoherent. So Robert F. Kennedy Jr., Democrat,
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: big time anti-vaxxer, he's banned on Instagram, but he's not
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: banned on Facebook. How does that make sense? How does
• 7:09
  Speaker 3: that work? Maybe he like broke the terms of service
• 7:11
  Speaker 3: on IG, but not Facebook, but seemingly like you could
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: rationally decide, okay, this guy is a bad actor spreading
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: harmful information. We should take him off the platform. And
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: There was a study that labeled these folks the disinformation
• 7:24
  Speaker 3: dozen that the White House has cited that found that
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: 65% of anti-vax content comes from 12 people. They looked
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: at Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. And nine of these 12
• 7:33
  Speaker 3: are still on all of these platforms. So Facebook's approach
• 7:38
  Speaker 3: to these issues has evolved over time. They started in
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: the lazy Silicon Valley libertarian place of like, we believe
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: in free speech. It's bullshit. It's just like that's the
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: easiest thing for the Mark Zuckerberg of the world to say.
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: to rationalize and defend a hands-off approach. Over time, they
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: started taking people off like Alex Jones, folks like that,
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: and they've clamped down harder and harder and harder on disinformation.
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: But I think until October of this year, they allowed
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: anti-vaccine paid advertisements. They were getting money.
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: I mentioned that. It was just in October. You're right.
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: They started doing that.
• 8:12
  Speaker 3: And there's still exemptions in that ban for legislations. So,
• 8:16
  Speaker 3: you know, I'm not saying this is an easy issue,
• 8:18
  Speaker 3: but like it's completely incoherent when you look at their response.
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: So you said like one one easy step is at
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: the very least banning people or posts, misinformation posts from
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: folks who are already banned on other Facebook owned platforms.
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: That's that's low hanging fruit. What more could Facebook and
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: other social media platforms be doing in general to combat
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: misinformation about the vaccines?
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: Love it. Well, one one step that Facebook refuses to
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: take is the only information we get a kind of
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: overview of. of what people are seeing is from Facebook.
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: And because Facebook has a communication strategy to be completely disingenuous,
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: like obtuse and sleazy through virtually all of their communications
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: for years, nobody trusts what they put out. Nobody believes
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: it's giving them a full picture. And we know that
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: they're kind of cherry picking the information that best suits
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: their argument. You know, they'll point out all the billions of,
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: they'll point out all the misinformation they take down. They
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: don't tell us how much of it has reached people,
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: for example. And so there's this push to allow researchers
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: access to Facebook's information, its data, its back end to
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: kind of do research on the ways in which misinformation
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: spreads and promulgates through their platform and off their platform.
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: And they obviously do not see it in their interest
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: to allow this to happen. But I would argue that
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: if they genuinely believe they want to create this safe
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: and productive place for community, they should want this transparency.
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: They should want to be intellectually honest and rigorous and
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: bring these kinds of outside experts in, in a way
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: that's anonymized, in a way that keeps private information private,
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: but that will give them, I think, some credibility and
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: some genuine sort of goodwill in the fight to make
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: a safer community that a huge proportion of the planet uses.
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: So more transparency, the White House has called on them
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: to be more transparent as well. Tommy, anything else?
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: I think giving independent research access to their data is
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: the biggest thing they need to do as well. I mean, like,
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: it just speaks to the fundamental problem with this company
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: is like, they say, trust us all the time. And
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: when you think back to all the, you know, sort
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: of like, hat in hand to Mark Zuckerberg apologies that
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: have happened along the way, starting with him suggesting that
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: it's crazy to think that fake news could have had
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: an impact on the 2016 election. They've just given us
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: time and time again reason not to trust what they say. So,
• 10:28
  Speaker 3: you know, I understand that these are not easy questions.
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: The idea of working with the government raises First Amendment
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: issues as well. But like to your point, you would
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: think you would want a platform where videos like the
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: pandemic video that essentially accused Dr. Fauci of creating the
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: coronavirus pandemic. didn't spread like wildfire to millions of people
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: for a week before you take it down. Like get
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: some folks on top of this.
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: And again, you know, YouTube is at fault there too, right?
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: Like it's not just Facebook, this would go beyond Facebook. So,
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: you know, the other point that Jen Psaki mentioned in
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: her press briefing is that Facebook has the ability to
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: tweak their algorithm to promote credible sources of information over
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: less credible sources. They haven't done that yet. How do
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: we know they can do that? Well, there's the story
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: of the quote, nicer newsfeed, after the 2020 election, in
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: the days after the election, Facebook employees convinced Mark Zuckerberg
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: to change the algorithm so that it gave more weight
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: and visibility to publishers with high news ecosystem quality, or NEQ, scores,
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: which are, in Facebook, a secret internal ranking that Facebook
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: assigns to news publishers based on the credibility of their stories.
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: And in the days after the election, when they did that, CNN,
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: New York Times, NPR became more highly visible posts than
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: partisan sites like Breitbart or Occupy Democrats. And so like
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: and there was this big story like we had a
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: nicer news feed and all the employees were like, are
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: we going to have this forever now? And then a
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: couple of weeks after the election, after the insurrection, after everything,
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: when Joe Biden gets inaugurated, they just shut it off.
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: They had they could have done it. I know.
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: And look, they clamped down on anti-vaccine information in 2019
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: after there was a giant measles outbreak, a disease that
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: we basically eradicated in California that led to like 80
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: something kids dying. They have announced new policies limiting the
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: spread of groups that give bad health advice or organize
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: the militias with ties to violence. So along the way,
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: they keep taking these steps. The challenge is their response
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: seems to be, OK, but we've helped so many people
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: find authoritative information by steering them there. But if you
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: create a community where, for a decade, anti-vaxxers, QAnon, Alex Jones,
• 12:34
  Speaker 3: just shred everyone's faith in institutions, and then you have
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: a big tech company Handing you over to the CDC
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: for the information about the groups and people they've just
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: been attacking. Like, it's not going to work. The damage
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: is done.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: It's also, like, they constantly try to turn their scale from, like,
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: a liability into a strength. And we just shouldn't rhetorically
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: just allow that message just to work on us. Like,
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: if a supermarket had a bunch of different kinds of
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: cereal that were deadly and that if you had a
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: single bite of it, you would fall down and die. Mm-hmm.
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: We would not accept as an argument from Stop and
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: Shop that they've removed almost 90% of the deadly boxes
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: of cereal. We would say, hold on a second, there's
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: a deeper problem here. How is the cereal getting on
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: your shelves? What brands are responsible? What are you doing
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: to fix it? And so only in, you know, we
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: don't allow buildings to get so big that parts of
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: it can fall down. We don't allow companies to get
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: so big that their products can kill a certain percentage
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: of their people. Well, sometimes we do, to be honest.
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: I was going to say, I think we do both
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: of those things.
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: Sometimes we do those. But we don't accept it. We
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: don't accept it. And so we should not allow Facebook
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: to use its scale as a defense. It's not a defense.
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: You built this giant fucking conglomerate, this giant monstrosity. You
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: have to figure out how to govern it. It's not
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: our fault you got so big.
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: Oh, and one more thing. I mentioned earlier about Trump
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: and the statement. What do we think about him now
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: sort of dipping his toe into the... I mean, he
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: actually has done it a couple times now, but It
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: was his vaccine. He likes to take credit for the
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: vaccines being developed under his watch. Now he's saying, oh,
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: people aren't getting them because because they don't trust Joe
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: Biden and they think the election was stolen. It was
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: sort of a mishmash of a dumb statement.
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: But I mean, you're right that this is not a
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: new position for him. It's more of a return to form.
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: There was this infamous study from the late 90s called
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: the Wakefield study that suggested that measles, mumps and rubella
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: vaccines caused autism. That study has been retracted. subsequent studies
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: have found it was completely wrong, but it has been
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: enormously damaging and is the root of a lot of
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: the anti-vaxxer sentiment you see. Trump, as recently as 2012, 2014,
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: was tweeting that kids shouldn't get vaccines because it causes autism.
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: So if he's now going back to a position where
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: he's raising concerns about vaccines and getting vaccinated, it would
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: be his previous position that he you know, kind of
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: grudgingly walked back from once he got into the White House.
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: I mean, thank God. Thank God he wants to take
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: credit for the vaccine on some level, because if he didn't,
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: it's very clear he'd be completely anti-vax. He'd be right
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: there with Marjorie Taylor Greene and Tucker Carlson right now.
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: That's where his heart is. But of course, he wants
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: credit for the vaccine. He is vaccinated. So I think
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: we have this like this statement from him is actually
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: just punditry, right? He's not saying he's not saying that
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: the mistrust is correct. He's saying, look at what Biden's causing,
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: because if his for all the reasons he wants to,
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: you know, lay blame at Biden's feet, but he's not
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: actually crossing the threshold.
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: Yet. Yeah. And but, you know, Donald Trump Jr., if
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: you look at his Instagram, which for some reason I do,
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: he posts anti-vaccine stuff all the time. Like recently, he
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: posts like a photo of a woman with a baby
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: arm growing out of her head that said something about
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: raise your hand if you got the vaccine.
• 15:26
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: It's all like supposed to be for the yucks, memes,
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: LOL stuff.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: But it's like Donald Trump Jr.
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: Exactly. All right.
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: Facebook bad. Let's turn to the Biden White House. They
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: they aren't really known for even hitting Republicans or right
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: wing media all that hard. Why do you think they
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: decided to step out on, uh, on Facebook.
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: I mean, I, I, I think that I talked to
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: some folks there over the weekend who said that the Facebook, sorry,
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: did you do some reporting? Goddamn right.
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: I did.
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: You know, I had like a newsies hat on, I
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: got out my typewriter. Um, they said that the Facebook's
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: response after Vivek's report went out was just unacceptable. And
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: it just seemed like they were going to drag their
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: feet again. And, and, you know, then you, you The
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: White House is out there saying, hey, we really need
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: your help with disinformation and hygiene on your platform. And
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: instead of hearing about Facebook launching some new initiative to
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: get anti-vax info off their platform, you read stories in
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: the New York Times by people like Kevin Roos about
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: how they might get rid of CrowdTangle, which is the
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: only tool we have to really understand how people are
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: engaging with posts on platform, like what posts are getting
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: viewed the most. It's an internal Facebook entity that they
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: might just shut down because it's creating a PR headache
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: for them.
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: Because they don't like seeing Kevin Russo's posts about the
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: top 10 Facebooks being like, Bungino, Bungino, Bungino, an AP
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: story about the defeating of a sex trafficking ring because
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: QAnon latched onto it, Ben Shapiro, Ben Shapiro, Ben Shapiro.
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it does seem like, look, the Biden folks were just,
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: they're frustrated, right? And I'm sure President Biden's comment, I
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: don't even know if his comment was planned about it's
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: killing people. I'm sure he's frustrated because they're, you know,
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: the vaccination campaign has stalled a bit over the last
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: month and they're seeing the Delta variant spread and I
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: think going public with this was the only way they
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: knew how to do it, as opposed to just quietly
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: talking to Facebook behind the scenes.
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it just comes on the heels of constant dumb
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: decision-making by Facebook. They didn't ban Holocaust denial until October
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: of 2020.
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: Mark Zuckerberg's official position was that he thought it should
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: be on the platform so people should know it's out there.
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: Love it.
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: It's worse than that. He said, I don't think that
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: they're intentionally getting it wrong when asked about people who
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: post Holocaust denial. Yes, they are, man.
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems like you might be off on that one.
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: There's a long history of intentionally posting anti-Semitic stuff. They
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: wouldn't fact-check political ads in the 2020 campaign. So I
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: imagine there's just an accumulating frustration at the idiocy.
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: I just want to say also that I appreciated this
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: sort of Biden saying they're killing people. It launched this conversation.
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: Then Biden walked it back. It's kind of like a
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: reverse Trump because what used to happen is Trump would
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: go out and say something kind of kind of that
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: implied something so beyond the pale. It kind of repulsed
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: most human beings. Then a few of his most devoted
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: people would go out there and say he didn't mean it.
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: And then on Monday, he would say it explicitly and
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: they'd all be embarrassed. This is the reverse of that.
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: Biden says Facebook is killing people. I don't think they are.
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: A bunch of people defend him, and then he walks
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: it back. He de-escalates.
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: That's all.
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: That's one of the many differences.
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: Among many differences, yes.
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: Biden team is trying a lot of different strategies to
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: get more people vaccinated. They're calling out misinformation on Facebook.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: They've got community leaders going door to door. They've got
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: Olivia Rodrigo at the White House. Who do they still
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: need to reach and persuade to get a shot? And
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: what else do you think they should try at this point?
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: I mean, one in five Americans believes there's a microchip
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: in your COVID vaccine, right? You mentioned that earlier. Same
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: poll found that 40% of the country thinks the threat
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: of COVID was exaggerated for political purposes, including 85% of
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: the unvaccinated. So I think, you know, the microchip crew,
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: probably going to be a tough get.
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: Tough, tough sell for the microchip crew.
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: There are a.
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: Bunch of people in this country who I think have
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: understandable questions or concerns. They look at the Tuskegee experiments where,
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: you know, black men were given syphilis and not treated
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: by the government. Horrible part of our history. You can
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: imagine why that would create hesitation in the black community.
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: There are young people who are just confused about whether
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: or not they need it. And they've heard news stories
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: about the side effects that are scary. There's pregnant women.
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: There's young people, right? There's all kinds of different groups
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: who I think have legitimate questions, concerns, have seen something disconcerting.
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: Those are all folks that are reachable. I think the
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: like hardcore QAnon anti-vaxxers, we're never going to reach them.
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: I feel like you have to separate anti-vaxxers from vaccine
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: hesitant and vaccine skeptical. And we should probably stop saying
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: anti-vax so much because that creates an identity. And we
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: don't want to we don't want to affiliate people who
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: have concerns rightly or wrongly. with people that will never
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: get it. And I always try to say hesitant, hesitant.
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: And then so Kaiser Family Foundation did a poll of
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: people who got the vaccine, people who were hesitant to
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: get the vaccine. And they looked at the 21 percent
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: of adults who are now vaccinated after saying in January
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: that they planned on waiting would only get it if
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: required or would definitely not get it. And so they
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: looked at what changed their mind. One fourth said it
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: was seeing others, especially friends and family, get vaccinated. 17%
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: were persuaded by a family member, 10% by a doctor
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: or healthcare provider, and then by close friends, coworkers, and classmates.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: And many of those who said they were persuaded after
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: talking to their own doctor mentioned their doctor encouraging them
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: due to their own or a family member's medical condition,
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: so trying to protect themselves or their family. And then
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: the other factor was the easing of restrictions on vaccinated people.
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: They decided to get it because they could get back
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: to normal life. One of the respondents just wanted to
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: go to the Bahamas. And so we should not underestimate
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: the power of vaccine mandates.
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: Well, and you'll see a lot of people in L.A.
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: have responded to the mask mandate that returned here by saying, well,
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: what's the point of getting a vaccine? I thought if
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: I got the vaccine, I'd have to wear a mask anymore.
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: So that is one potential consequence of that.
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah. And look back to the sort of Mark Zuckerberg
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: being completely naive about why people post Holocaust denial. The
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: other thing I think that they don't seem to get is. Now,
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: according to the Center for Countering Digital Hate, which put
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: out this disinfo dozen report about these super spreaders of
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: bad information about vaccines, they have found that anti-vaccine activists
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: specifically target black communities and push this stuff on them,
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: knowing the really dark history in our country. And that's
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: why it has to be an active campaign to counter
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: that misinformation or remove it with good information, right? Because
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: there's a lot of people for whom this is a
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: thing they are very passionate about. They think about, talk
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: about it, organize around it all day. And the rest
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: of us just get vaccinated at some point in our
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: lives and move on with our lives. And there's no
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: countering the disinformation happening. There's just a big void.
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: So the same poll that Lovett cited, the Kaiser poll,
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: in June of 2021, last month, 65% in that poll
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: said that they had already received at least one dose.
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: We know it's a good poll because at the time
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: in June, it was about 65%, according to the CDC
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: as well. 14% said definitely not. that's the microchip crew.
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: 10% said, we're going to wait and see. And then
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: 6% said, they'll only do it if required. So that
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: 10% and 6% is like basically who we're talking to.
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: There's three things you can do, right, to get people
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: to get a vaccine. There's persuasion, incentives, and mandates. Persuasion
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: is what you guys have been talking about. The other
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: persuasion strategy that I think we haven't used yet, it'd
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: be interesting to see sort of previously vaccine hesitant people
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: who got the vaccine record testimonials, video testimonials and ads
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: and start running ads with people that I didn't know
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: if I wanted to get it. And then my father
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: convinced me or my mother convinced me or my sibling,
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: you know, and see how that goes. Incentives we've seen,
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: we've seen the lotteries in different states, right? I do think,
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: you know, everyone's very concerned about mandates. We've had mandates
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: on a state and local level for vaccines forever in
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: our history. In France, Macron, the president of France, announced
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: on Monday that proof of vaccination or a negative test
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: would soon be needed to access public events, restaurants, movies
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: and airports. Since then, in just 48 hours after his announcement,
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: more than 2.2 million French people booked vaccination appointments. So
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: I really look. They are they are legal.
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: In March, a federal court upheld an employer's vaccination mandate.
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: It was a hospital system in Texas. A federal judge
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: held it there. The Supreme Court has upheld local and
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: state mandates for schools for 100 years now. Once the
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: FDA offers a full approval, instead of just emergency use authorization,
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: they'll be on even firmer legal ground, but already employers
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: can do this. And we know that one employer– one
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: employer who– actually mandates vaccines for their employers is Fox News.
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: According to Fox News.
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: So Ryan Groom reported this this morning that Fox News
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: has something called a Fox passport or something that if
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: you're vaccinated, you can. Now, look, you don't have to
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: mandate that every employee gets it. What you can do
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: is say, OK, you either have to get vaccinated to
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: come to work in the office or you need like
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: a negative test or every day or every week or
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: something like that. So you make it harder to not
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: be vaccinated if you don't want to go the full
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: mandate route. But, like, I really think instead of just, like,
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: counting on fucking mask mandates forever, which aren't as effective
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: as vaccinations, you should start vaccinating people.
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: L.A.
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: County doesn't even have a requirement for their city employees
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: to be vaccinated, even though San Francisco does right now,
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: and they're putting out mask mandates.
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: And one other piece of this, too, the other side
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: of that, I feel like the carrot to that is
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: I do think that there are a lot of people who,
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: you know, are... if not, they're not, they're skeptical, they're hesitant.
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: Maybe they just haven't gotten around to it yet. And
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: that employers encouraging it and employers giving people time.
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: Off or even cash bonuses or.
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: Bonuses, just incentives at work to get vaccinated and make
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: it part of the culture of your, of your work
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: to get it, I think is another way to kind
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: of encourage it. And the other, the other small thing is,
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: you know, we are now at the place where we're
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: trying to reach people who are hesitant, maybe more likely
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: to be mistrustful of government for a host of different reasons. Uh,
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: And I do think that saying vaccines are safe and effective,
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: vaccines are safe and effective, there is maybe room to
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: start saying something, just like making it a comparison. COVID
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: is far more dangerous than any vaccine. COVID is the risk.
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: The vaccine is far, far less risky. And make that
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: comparison plain to people.
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I do worry. You're starting to see very clear
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: studies about how partisan vaccination has become. A lot of
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: red states have far lower levels than blue states. You're
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: starting to see sentiment on Twitter and other places. It's
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: basically like, you know what, screw these people. If they
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: don't get vaccinated, they deserve to get sort of shouting
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: them down, calling people idiots. I think that's very bad.
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: I think we need to approach this conversation with empathy.
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: I think if you, there's a lot of reasons to
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: be scared. There's a lot of bad information online. There's
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: a lot of lack of clarity about how science works,
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: about what an mRNA vaccine is, about how it was
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: developed so quickly, right? Like you could ask a lot
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: of reasonable questions. And I think if we shut people
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: down and attack them and call them stupid, it's not
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: going to work. especially when you're talking about people vaccinating
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: their kids, right?
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: Like, it's scary.
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: And again, empathy is great, but even if you want
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: to be purely self-interested about it, you know, the longer
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: this is out there and the fewer people that are vaccinated,
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: the higher the chance that a variant comes along that
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: evades the vaccines. Also, like, this is a stress on
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: our hospitals, right? Like, there are hospitals and healthcare workers
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: in places where there are not a lot of vaccinated
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: Americans who are just seeing the ICUs fill up and
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: that not only wears down our healthcare workers, but that
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: means that there's less capacity in those hospitals for other
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: people who get sick, right? So it is in the
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: interest of all of us for even the most vaccine-hesitant
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: person out there to get the shot, and we should
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: be doing everything we can to convince those people to
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: get a shot or require it, or require it.
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: And don't take your cues from Twitter. Twitter is not
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: the place to have this debate. They're actually people that
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: have spent a very long time thinking about how to
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: persuade vaccine-hesitant people to become vaccinated. Listen to them. They're
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: often called vaccine whispers. There are groups that have been
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: formed that have specialized in this and looked at this,
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: and we should be looking to them and not the
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: ridiculous political arguments that play out online about, was this punishment?
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: Is this incentives? Is this persuasion?
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: Put that all aside.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: There are people that know how to do this.
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: All right. When we come back, Tommy and I talk
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: to Senator Brian Schatz about climate, voting rights, tweeting, and more.
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: On the pod today, we have the deputy whip for
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: the Senate Democrats. Welcome back, Senator Brian Schatz. How's it going?
• 27:22
  Speaker 5: It's going fine. Nice to see you both.
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: I just want to start by saying, Tommy walked into
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: the office today. He is wearing a button-down shirt, which
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: I haven't seen him in over a year. And it
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: was because he thought you were going to be here
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: in the office. He thought you had a layover in L.A.
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: on your way home to Hawaii. And now he's all
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: dressed up for no good reason.
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: My wife asked me if I was going to court.
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: I said, no.
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: We have a big interview.
• 27:46
  Speaker 5: I like that that's fancy for you. That's great.
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: This is as fancy as it gets.
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: Senator, there was a lot of elastic wastes over the
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: last year and a half, so we're climbing back.
• 27:54
  Speaker 5: That shirt is like very casual for 90% of my colleagues.
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm wearing shorts.
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: So I saw that you spoke to NBC News the
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: other day about the prospects of passing Joe Biden's economic
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: plans and said that you haven't been this optimistic in many,
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: many months. What's gotten into you? Why are you so optimistic?
• 28:16
  Speaker 5: Well, I think it's a couple of things. It's a mood, right?
• 28:19
  Speaker 5: It's the sense that if Joe Biden's for it, if
• 28:22
  Speaker 5: Chuck Schumer's for it, if Nancy Pelosi's for it, there
• 28:25
  Speaker 5: is pretty good unity in the Democratic conference that we're
• 28:28
  Speaker 5: going to move forward on the American jobs plan. We're
• 28:33
  Speaker 5: also procedurally kind of in a good spot. We have
• 28:36
  Speaker 5: plans to to move on the so-called bipartisan infrastructure package
• 28:41
  Speaker 5: and then followed by the budget resolution, which sort of
• 28:44
  Speaker 5: unlocks reconciliation, which we can do in September. So we're
• 28:49
  Speaker 5: like in pretty good shape procedurally, but I think it
• 28:51
  Speaker 5: really more is an intuitive sense that there's a recognition
• 28:56
  Speaker 5: we've gotta do this. There's a sense of urgency. There's
• 28:58
  Speaker 5: a sense of meeting the moment. And that doesn't mean
• 29:02
  Speaker 5: that this bill won't face numerous near-death experiences along the
• 29:07
  Speaker 5: way because it's a big bill and that's what happens
• 29:10
  Speaker 5: and people threaten to kill it all the time and
• 29:12
  Speaker 5: Axios will report trouble for the bill every 72 hours. But,
• 29:19
  Speaker 5: and we're in a good spot and I'm feeling pretty optimistic.
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: One of the big parts of the bill is obviously
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: going to be climate, Joe Biden's entire climate agenda or
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: most of the climate agendas in this bill. You chaired
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: I think some fancy committee on climate a while back.
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: I think it was like a special committee on climate.
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: And I remember you telling Vox about a year ago
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: that you thought that when it came to climate and
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: agreeing on climate policy, all the Senate Democrats are united
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: and ready to roll. Do you still feel like that's
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: the case looking at what's going to be in the
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: reconciliation bill around climate?
• 29:53
  Speaker 5: Yeah, two points. Well, three points. First, Vox, not Fox, right?
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: I said Vox. Did I say Fox?
• 29:59
  Speaker 5: I just couldn't hear it exactly right.
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: I know you were on Tucker's show a year ago.
• 30:03
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't remember a climate interview with Fox. First
• 30:08
  Speaker 5: of all, I think that my experience in Hawaii when
• 30:12
  Speaker 5: we were starting the Hawaii Clean Energy Initiative in 1999 was,
• 30:16
  Speaker 5: there were lots of kind of stupid arguments in retrospect
• 30:19
  Speaker 5: between people who cared about wind or people who cared
• 30:21
  Speaker 5: about solar or people who cared about conservation. And what
• 30:25
  Speaker 5: we realize is that the best policy pathway and the
• 30:28
  Speaker 5: best political pathway are to enact all of the various
• 30:33
  Speaker 5: measures to address the climate because the size of the
• 30:37
  Speaker 5: problem and the size of the opportunity is so massive
• 30:40
  Speaker 5: that we really have to throw everything we've got at it.
• 30:43
  Speaker 5: And that sort of unlocks a political universe where we
• 30:47
  Speaker 5: don't really have to fight with each other over very much.
• 30:51
  Speaker 5: So the top line number that was authorized, or not authorized,
• 30:55
  Speaker 5: that has been contemplated of $ 3. 5 trillion provides enough room
• 31:00
  Speaker 5: for us to do not just meaningful stuff on climate,
• 31:03
  Speaker 5: but the kind of climate action that will meet the moment,
• 31:09
  Speaker 5: understanding that it's super rare for us to have the trifecta.
• 31:12
  Speaker 5: But look, you know, we're a diverse caucus and people
• 31:16
  Speaker 5: are going to have hives about various pieces of the bill.
• 31:20
  Speaker 5: And we've got to work that out. So I don't
• 31:21
  Speaker 5: want to I don't want to underestimate the challenge in
• 31:23
  Speaker 5: front of us. But I think there's a recognition that
• 31:27
  Speaker 5: the Democratic caucus has to deliver on climate and not
• 31:31
  Speaker 5: for some sort of obscure political reason, because it's going
• 31:34
  Speaker 5: to win us the midterms, but because the planet is
• 31:37
  Speaker 5: on fire and everybody gets that. And the collective determination
• 31:41
  Speaker 5: is giving me a ton of hope.
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: Well, I'm glad you talked about the scale of the
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: problem and the hives, because you work in an institution
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: that is in part designed to tell the country, the
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: House of Representatives, to slow its roll a little bit, right?
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: I mean, the cliche, the very modern metaphor you always
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: hear is that the Senate is the cooling saucer, but
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: we live on a rapidly warming planet with a bunch
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: of people that move at Twitter speed, and that can
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: create some friction, right, between lawmakers and people like you
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: who are trying to work the process as fast as
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: you can, and then activists like us who sit around
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: and tweet, which is obviously much more important. So what
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: is your message to people like me and John?
• 32:16
  Speaker 5: Stop tweeting.
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: Thank you. Do you find our tweets annoying?
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: You first.
• 32:24
  Speaker 5: Touche, John.
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: We've come to an impasse. What's your message to activists
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: who are, you know, filled with existential climate dread and,
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: you know, want to figure out a way to sort
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: of push lawmakers to meet the moment, move faster, et cetera?
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: Like what should they, what do they need to know?
• 32:41
  Speaker 5: So first of all, don't despair. And the reason that
• 32:44
  Speaker 5: I say don't despair is not sort of just to
• 32:46
  Speaker 5: be reassuring, but to, we have to remind ourselves that
• 32:50
  Speaker 5: our opponents thrive on our despairing. They want us to
• 32:56
  Speaker 5: feel despondent. They want us to feel like it can't
• 33:00
  Speaker 5: be done. And so momentum begets momentum in the political context.
• 33:05
  Speaker 5: And so we should turn our righteous outrage into action.
• 33:09
  Speaker 5: But those actions should be equal to the moment, which
• 33:12
  Speaker 5: is to say it is not about finding some line
• 33:16
  Speaker 5: in the sand and like whipping Democratic members about whether
• 33:20
  Speaker 5: they're for a specific provision in the climate bill, because
• 33:23
  Speaker 5: the danger there is what I what I would call
• 33:26
  Speaker 5: like the Keystone thing, which was an important fight. And
• 33:29
  Speaker 5: I was opposed to the Keystone pipeline, but In the end,
• 33:32
  Speaker 5: that became like the measure of whether or not we
• 33:35
  Speaker 5: were making progress on climate or not. And look, Keystone's
• 33:38
  Speaker 5: dead and the climate is still a huge challenge. So
• 33:42
  Speaker 5: you can use individual provisions in this bill as a
• 33:45
  Speaker 5: rallying point, but don't underestimate the importance of a package
• 33:50
  Speaker 5: of provisions that actually add up to 1.5 degrees centigrade.
• 33:56
  Speaker 5: So the point being, we're not negotiating with each other.
• 34:00
  Speaker 5: We're not even negotiating with Republicans. It's physics that we're
• 34:04
  Speaker 5: contending with. And so not to get too wonky here,
• 34:07
  Speaker 5: but my test, I get asked almost daily, well, what
• 34:12
  Speaker 5: is the one thing you need in the bill? Is
• 34:14
  Speaker 5: it your carbon fee bill? Is it a clean electricity standard?
• 34:17
  Speaker 5: Is it electrification of transportation? First of all, I say
• 34:20
  Speaker 5: it's all of it. But second of all, the rather
• 34:23
  Speaker 5: maybe unsatisfying answer for someone who wants a pithy quote
• 34:27
  Speaker 5: is the truth is I'm going to take all of
• 34:29
  Speaker 5: these things. And I'm going to send them to Columbia University,
• 34:34
  Speaker 5: Resources for the Future, MIT, and the federal government. And
• 34:37
  Speaker 5: they have like modeling shops, literally, who do these statistical models.
• 34:42
  Speaker 5: And they'll take all the provisions from any proposal. And
• 34:46
  Speaker 5: within three or four days, they'll spit out, OK, that'll
• 34:49
  Speaker 5: get you X number of degrees of warming. That's my test.
• 34:54
  Speaker 5: I don't care. I mean, I don't want to say
• 34:56
  Speaker 5: I don't care. But my primary concern is not satisfying
• 34:59
  Speaker 5: any individual constituency. My primary concern is satisfying my daughter,
• 35:04
  Speaker 5: who's 13, who's saying, you better do something on climate.
• 35:07
  Speaker 5: You're going to fly back and forth 50 times a year.
• 35:10
  Speaker 5: That's the reason you're in the United States Senate. And
• 35:13
  Speaker 5: that's how we have to look at this, which is
• 35:15
  Speaker 5: a citizen's youth climate core is great. My bike lane,
• 35:21
  Speaker 5: electric bike provision is great. I love my carbon fee bill.
• 35:25
  Speaker 5: I love the environmental justice provisions. But it all has
• 35:28
  Speaker 5: to add up to actually us solving it rather than
• 35:30
  Speaker 5: just having something to rally around.
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: I've never seen road rage like Jon Favreau with a biker.
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: out of a bike lane in Washington, DC. It's incredible.
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: It was a DC thing in LA. You don't see
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: as many bikers.
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: No.
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: They were all over the road. They acted like they
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: were drivers. Anyway, that's my, that's another issue for me.
• 35:47
  Speaker 5: Are you anti-bike John?
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: Don't tweet at me about biking. I support biking. I
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: have a bike now. I drove.
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: I got it for my birthday last year when it
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: was nowhere to go in the pandemic.
• 35:56
  Speaker 5: Are you like just theoretically for biking as public policy,
• 36:00
  Speaker 5: but you're actually a jerk to bikers?
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: No, no.
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: Well, now everyone's going to think I am. I used
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: to be. I've gotten better. Are you a bimby or
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: what is a biking?
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: What is it? I don't know. Go ahead.
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: You said the word despair and the image in my
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: head was the houseboat that Joe Manchin lives on. What
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: what do you know about what he's willing to support
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: in terms of climate policy just based on I don't
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: want you to try to like divulge conversations you've had
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: with him recently, but like just based on his past experiences.
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: past conversations you know past issues that he's been on
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: either side of like he said last week he has
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: some concerns he said this week that he has some
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: concerns in the at the language you know he said
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: you cannot be moving towards eliminating fossil fuels that doesn't
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: seem great but like i know you've obviously talked to
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: him for a while what do you think he's willing
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: to support well i mean.
• 36:48
  Speaker 5: We've had multiple conversations and like you said i i
• 36:51
  Speaker 5: wouldn't divulge at least his side of the conversation but
• 36:53
  Speaker 5: but let me give you you know my perspective you
• 36:56
  Speaker 5: know when i when i was point person in Hawaii
• 36:58
  Speaker 5: on the Hawaii Clean Energy Initiative. The business community is
• 37:01
  Speaker 5: sitting there going, wait a second, we have the Pacific
• 37:04
  Speaker 5: Command and we have Waikiki and we need firm, reliable power.
• 37:10
  Speaker 5: I said, yeah, of course we do. We're just going
• 37:12
  Speaker 5: to move the percentage of our portfolio up as aggressively
• 37:15
  Speaker 5: as possible. In the meantime, yeah, we're going to be
• 37:18
  Speaker 5: lighting LSFO, low sulfur fuel oil on fire to create electrons.
• 37:23
  Speaker 5: That's a stupid thing to do, but I'm not a,
• 37:25
  Speaker 5: I'm not a maniac. I don't want to stop that
• 37:28
  Speaker 5: instantaneously and have nobody be able to turn their lights on.
• 37:31
  Speaker 5: And so the sort of gap between someone like me
• 37:35
  Speaker 5: and someone like Joe Manchin as a practical matter is
• 37:38
  Speaker 5: not as wide as it appears because all he's saying is, Hey,
• 37:42
  Speaker 5: for at least some number of years, we're still going
• 37:45
  Speaker 5: to be lighting things on fire to create electrons. And
• 37:51
  Speaker 5: what he is hearing is that basically all of these
• 37:54
  Speaker 5: things will be instantaneously banned. And I think even the
• 37:57
  Speaker 5: most aggressive climate activists understand that we're still going to
• 38:01
  Speaker 5: need to put gasoline in our cars. And for until
• 38:04
  Speaker 5: we cite and permit and construct and plug into the
• 38:08
  Speaker 5: grid all of this renewable energy, We're not going to
• 38:11
  Speaker 5: take away electricity from people. And so I think there's
• 38:15
  Speaker 5: a fair amount of room to move here. I don't
• 38:17
  Speaker 5: want to like overstate my optimism as it relates to
• 38:20
  Speaker 5: conversations I've had with Joe. But I would just say
• 38:23
  Speaker 5: that he's moved a lot. And I think he understands
• 38:26
  Speaker 5: that those of us who have like serious plans as
• 38:28
  Speaker 5: it relates to clean energy understand that, you know, both
• 38:32
  Speaker 5: politically and morally, we can't like de-electrify the United States
• 38:37
  Speaker 5: of America, right? The idea is to put more and
• 38:40
  Speaker 5: more things on the electric grid and then put more
• 38:42
  Speaker 5: of that electric grid on renewable energy resources as aggressively
• 38:46
  Speaker 5: as practicable. But the idea is not to turn our
• 38:49
  Speaker 5: society into like 150 years ago where nothing works anymore.
• 38:54
  Speaker 5: And I do think that the utility companies of old
• 38:56
  Speaker 5: and the oil companies of old really put the fear
• 39:00
  Speaker 5: of God in a lot of people that that's actually
• 39:03
  Speaker 5: where we wanted to land. And like, if we had
• 39:05
  Speaker 5: our druthers that we would instantaneously just literally ban all
• 39:08
  Speaker 5: fossil fuel generation and transmission and distribution. And look, I
• 39:13
  Speaker 5: think we should get rid of it as quickly as
• 39:14
  Speaker 5: we can, but as quickly as we can is a
• 39:17
  Speaker 5: matter of citing and permitting and then getting it onto
• 39:21
  Speaker 5: the grid, which is going to be decades.
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: Senator, you, Congress passed into law a child tax credit
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: that some experts say will cut child poverty in half.
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: I believe those checks are going out to families this week.
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: The question is, do you regret not incorporating like some
• 39:40
  Speaker 3: sort of epic Trump burn in the bill text so
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: that it would get covered? Maybe something about Ivanka versus Jared,
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: just sort of get it in Politico.
• 39:52
  Speaker 5: You know, I think your point, I think your point, Tommy,
• 39:56
  Speaker 5: is that we're crappy at capturing the imagination of the
• 40:00
  Speaker 5: Beltway Press.
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: No. And they're crappy and not picking up what you're
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: putting down.
• 40:06
  Speaker 5: Well, fair enough.
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: But I also think it's a little more about their,
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: them reporting on what's exciting versus what's important would be
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: really more of the core.
• 40:14
  Speaker 5: What's new, right? They just, even the excellent reporters have
• 40:17
  Speaker 5: a bias towards newness that drives me up a damn wall.
• 40:20
  Speaker 5: But I will tell you that this thing is so
• 40:23
  Speaker 5: popular and so helpful to millions and millions of families
• 40:28
  Speaker 5: that it's not about capturing a news cycle. It's about
• 40:32
  Speaker 5: being relentless and about the child tax credit. So many
• 40:36
  Speaker 5: families are going to get so much help from the
• 40:39
  Speaker 5: federal government for the foreseeable future because of something that
• 40:43
  Speaker 5: we did that people didn't even know we were doing
• 40:45
  Speaker 5: it when it happened. So we've got it in the
• 40:47
  Speaker 5: American jobs plan. We've got to extend this. And then frankly,
• 40:50
  Speaker 5: we've got to run on it. We got to make
• 40:52
  Speaker 5: sure that everybody understands what we've done.
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah. No, I ask that in jest because it's such
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: a big deal. It's so monumental. It's so important. And
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: there's the opportunity to extend it forever and just fundamentally
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: change the way the United States government supports families in
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: this country. And then John and Dan were talking about
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: some focus groups on Thursday where Trump voters said, wow,
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: Joe Biden could do that. He already had done it.
• 41:16
  Speaker 3: That would make me really reconsider who I voted for
• 41:18
  Speaker 3: in the next election. So it's politically popular, as you said.
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: Have you talked to the White House about your idea
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: of calling it Biden Bucks?
• 41:26
  Speaker 5: I have, and they're sort of like, we're the messaging
• 41:29
  Speaker 5: people over here. We'll take that under advisement.
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: What about Shots in Arms, S-C-H-A-T-Z in Arms?
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: Biden Bucks in Pockets.
• 41:37
  Speaker 3: Shots in Arms, Biden Bucks in Pockets.
• 41:39
  Speaker 5: I like it.
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: We can workshop something.
• 41:41
  Speaker 5: Anything that gives me credit for something I didn't do,
• 41:43
  Speaker 5: you know.
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: Again, I won't ask you to divulge details, but... Have
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: you had any recent conversations with your colleagues that have
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: made you optimistic on passing federal voting rights legislation?
• 41:58
  Speaker 5: Not particularly.
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: Bummer.
• 42:01
  Speaker 5: And so I think there's kind of two ways to
• 42:03
  Speaker 5: look at this. First of all, you know, I want
• 42:07
  Speaker 5: to go back to the thing I said about despair.
• 42:10
  Speaker 5: This one in particular, the language has gotten so apocalyptic
• 42:15
  Speaker 5: and for very understandable reasons, because the threat is very real.
• 42:21
  Speaker 5: that it does run the risk of having the impact
• 42:25
  Speaker 5: that Trump did on his voters in Georgia. That if
• 42:30
  Speaker 5: people feel like they cannot win because the system is
• 42:34
  Speaker 5: actually rigged structurally, then they will not turn out. So
• 42:40
  Speaker 5: we've got to keep two sort of things in tension
• 42:43
  Speaker 5: in our own minds and coming out of our own mouths.
• 42:46
  Speaker 5: One is that this is creeping authoritarianism. and it is
• 42:54
  Speaker 5: the offspring of the big lie, right? And that you
• 42:57
  Speaker 5: can draw a straight line from the big lie to
• 42:59
  Speaker 5: January 6th to all this voter suppression. And so we
• 43:03
  Speaker 5: have to have that sense of urgency about passing legislation
• 43:06
  Speaker 5: at the state and the federal level. We have to
• 43:08
  Speaker 5: have a sense of urgency about Attorney General Garland and
• 43:13
  Speaker 5: his deputies who are extraordinary, doing everything they can to
• 43:16
  Speaker 5: enforce the law and the constitution And I'm not suggesting
• 43:22
  Speaker 5: that this is not as bad as it seems. I
• 43:24
  Speaker 5: am saying, however, that if we build up to the
• 43:28
  Speaker 5: point where the only solution is to yell at my
• 43:33
  Speaker 5: colleagues who have basically promised not to break the filibuster
• 43:37
  Speaker 5: and just assume that if you're a senator from Arizona,
• 43:41
  Speaker 5: you're a senator from West Virginia, that you can be
• 43:43
  Speaker 5: pressured into flipping on this. I think that's just like
• 43:46
  Speaker 5: tactically not smart, right? Because I take them at their word.
• 43:51
  Speaker 5: They don't want to break the filibuster. Now, are there
• 43:54
  Speaker 5: ways to modify the filibuster to make it work better? Sure.
• 43:58
  Speaker 5: Should we keep the pressure up? Absolutely. But again, authoritarian regimes,
• 44:04
  Speaker 5: and Tommy, you know this better than I do, but
• 44:05
  Speaker 5: I've been studying a ton about this. They really do
• 44:08
  Speaker 5: thrive on this sense of the inevitability of them winning, right?
• 44:14
  Speaker 5: Of a minority of people ruling the majority of people
• 44:17
  Speaker 5: and the majority of people feeling absolutely powerless. And so, yes,
• 44:22
  Speaker 5: we should fight for the statutory and constitutional provisions that
• 44:28
  Speaker 5: that protect the sacred right to vote. But we no
• 44:33
  Speaker 5: matter what happens, no matter what happens with the filibuster,
• 44:37
  Speaker 5: with the John Lewis Voting Rights Act, with H.R. 1,
• 44:40
  Speaker 5: we have to keep fighting, fighting, fighting, because everybody, all
• 44:43
  Speaker 5: of our I was thinking about this, all of our predecessors,
• 44:46
  Speaker 5: whether it was, you know, in the 60s and 70s,
• 44:49
  Speaker 5: or whether it was the Civil War or whether it
• 44:51
  Speaker 5: was World War II, they've faced these existential threats. And
• 44:56
  Speaker 5: I very much doubt that the leaders of the movements
• 44:58
  Speaker 5: that prevailed said, oh, we are well and truly *
• 45:02
  Speaker 5: * * *, right? And there's so much of that
• 45:05
  Speaker 5: stuff on Twitter of people who sort of present themselves
• 45:08
  Speaker 5: as leaders of a movement. And what a thing to say, right?
• 45:13
  Speaker 5: What a thing to say. If we don't do this,
• 45:15
  Speaker 5: it's over, right? And it's never over. And so I
• 45:19
  Speaker 5: don't want to present to you good news that I
• 45:21
  Speaker 5: don't have on voting rights in the legislative context. But
• 45:24
  Speaker 5: I just want to say, don't despair because hope is
• 45:29
  Speaker 5: a decision. Hope is a muscle. And we've got to
• 45:32
  Speaker 5: keep exercising it. Even if we're not even sure what
• 45:34
  Speaker 5: the pathway is forward, we know for sure that if
• 45:38
  Speaker 5: we say, oh, we are well and truly f *
• 45:40
  Speaker 5: * * ed and it's October of an odd numbered year,
• 45:43
  Speaker 5: then we are well and truly f.
• 45:44
  Speaker 3: * * * ed.
• 45:46
  Speaker 5: I really wish that I hadn't sworn so much on
• 45:49
  Speaker 5: your pod.
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: We can bleep it.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: That would be more fun.
• 45:52
  Speaker 3: It'll sound cool if we bleep it.
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: To channel the activists, what they would say, I think,
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: is like, OK, we'll be there and we'll fight if
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: we know that this is lost in the end.
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: Like we'll still be there. But we want to see
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: every Democrat from Joe Biden to every Democratic senator trying
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: everything and fighting as hard as possible. So, you know,
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: you see this story yesterday that Manchin meets with the
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: Texas Democrats. They come out of the meeting. It seems
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: a little hopeful. They say, all right, we believe that
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: Joe Manchin wants to protect voting rights. He's going to
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: he wants to do a much narrower bill, put it
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: on the floor, get everyone there. And then they ask
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: him what the filibuster is like. I don't want to
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: talk about the filibuster. Forget about the filibuster. But could
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: you see a scenario where you get sort of a
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: pared down bill, a spare bill? You put it on
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: the floor. And then you're trying some of those, forget
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: getting rid of the filibuster because I'm with you. Manchin
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: and Sinema have said it a million times. I think
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: we should take them at their word. But you try
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: some of these filibuster reforms. You try to say, all right,
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: 41 Republican senators have to be on the floor the
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: entire time. Or maybe there's a carve out for voting
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: rights legislation. What do you think about the likelihood of
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: some of those reforms being tried over the next couple
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: of months?
• 46:57
  Speaker 5: I think the likelihood of them being tried is pretty high.
• 47:01
  Speaker 5: And I think we should.
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 47:02
  Speaker 5: Because I think that there's nothing that that, for instance,
• 47:05
  Speaker 5: Kirsten said that prevents the filibuster rules from being changed.
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 47:12
  Speaker 5: Because there's lots of like arcane details like, you know,
• 47:15
  Speaker 5: you guys know this stuff, but like we need 60
• 47:17
  Speaker 5: votes just to proceed to a bill, not to vote
• 47:20
  Speaker 5: for it, but just to get on it. And so
• 47:23
  Speaker 5: there and the motion to proceed is. used to be
• 47:25
  Speaker 5: like the equivalent of the, like at the end of
• 47:28
  Speaker 5: every Senate day, it's like, Hey, we're going to convene
• 47:30
  Speaker 5: at 10 AM and these committees are going to meet
• 47:32
  Speaker 5: and blah, blah, blah. And technically you could require a
• 47:34
  Speaker 5: roll call vote for every single one of those, like
• 47:37
  Speaker 5: basically ministerial little things that we do. It's called a
• 47:40
  Speaker 5: wrap up script every night. And it's like, here's what's
• 47:43
  Speaker 5: going to happen tomorrow. Technically any member could be like,
• 47:46
  Speaker 5: I object. We're going to vote on all this stuff.
• 47:48
  Speaker 5: The committees can't meet till noon. Like the Senate rules
• 47:51
  Speaker 5: as they exist are completely untenable. And the only way we,
• 47:55
  Speaker 5: we function on a day-to-day basis is every night we
• 47:58
  Speaker 5: get a unanimous consent, which means everybody doesn't object. And
• 48:02
  Speaker 5: then we have like all this functional stuff, the foreign
• 48:04
  Speaker 5: relations committee is going to meet a 10 and blah, blah, blah.
• 48:06
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 48:06
  Speaker 5: And so, um, the motion to proceed, for instance, used
• 48:10
  Speaker 5: to be never voted on. We just got onto a
• 48:14
  Speaker 5: bill and then some jerk, actually, I don't know if
• 48:16
  Speaker 5: it was a jerk. Cause I don't, I don't know
• 48:17
  Speaker 5: who it was in history.
• 48:18
  Speaker 3: I mean, odds are, yeah.
• 48:19
  Speaker 5: Um, fair enough. Um, um, demanded that we vote on that.
• 48:23
  Speaker 5: And so now just to Proceed to a bill requires
• 48:26
  Speaker 5: 60 votes. So there are a bunch of reforms that
• 48:28
  Speaker 5: could improve the process and still allow Joe and Kirsten
• 48:32
  Speaker 5: and others to stand on. I didn't eliminate the filibuster.
• 48:36
  Speaker 5: In fact, I saved the filibuster by making it work better.
• 48:38
  Speaker 3: Right. Speaking of untenable, is it weird to work in
• 48:43
  Speaker 3: a building with people who just don't seem to care
• 48:45
  Speaker 3: that the Capitol was stormed by a fascist mob?
• 48:49
  Speaker 5: It's super weird.
• 48:51
  Speaker 3: I mean, I just like your tweets on this of like,
• 48:54
  Speaker 3: If we can't come together to create a bipartisan commission
• 48:58
  Speaker 3: to study this horrific event in our history, that I
• 49:01
  Speaker 3: think is the best argument against the filibuster. I found
• 49:03
  Speaker 3: that very compelling.
• 49:05
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, you know, it's hard. I mean, it's
• 49:13
  Speaker 5: hard just as a human. I think anyone who's in
• 49:16
  Speaker 5: the Senate and can't compartmentalize just at the human level
• 49:20
  Speaker 5: and can't deal with someone with whom you disagree pretty
• 49:23
  Speaker 5: strongly or even dislike pretty strongly, then you're probably not
• 49:26
  Speaker 5: going to be very effective in the Senate because the
• 49:28
  Speaker 5: deal is you kind of have to just be able
• 49:30
  Speaker 5: to handle this kind of level of combat and situational
• 49:35
  Speaker 5: partnerships because otherwise you're just going to sit there in
• 49:37
  Speaker 5: a corner and only work with the people with whom
• 49:40
  Speaker 5: you agree, which are never gonna add up to even 50,
• 49:43
  Speaker 5: but let alone 60. And so, yeah, you gotta compartmentalize,
• 49:46
  Speaker 5: but compartmentalizing to the extent that you're trying to work
• 49:50
  Speaker 5: with someone who ignores that the Capitol was under siege.
• 49:56
  Speaker 5: And to me, the physical siege of the Capitol was
• 49:59
  Speaker 5: a manifestation of an even bigger problem, which was they
• 50:01
  Speaker 5: tried to overturn democracy. And so, sorry for going off
• 50:06
  Speaker 5: on a bit of a tangent, but I think this
• 50:07
  Speaker 5: is kind of important. What I worry about more than
• 50:11
  Speaker 5: a siege on the Capitol, again, is a nonviolent siege
• 50:17
  Speaker 5: on democracy itself, an overturning of the electoral college vote
• 50:24
  Speaker 5: without a shot being fired, without a thug breaking through
• 50:27
  Speaker 5: a window. Because I think it's almost a certainty that
• 50:32
  Speaker 5: the Capitol will be extremely safe the next time there's
• 50:35
  Speaker 5: an electoral count, right? And so- The crime against the
• 50:40
  Speaker 5: country was manifested as a physical siege on the Capitol.
• 50:45
  Speaker 5: But what I worry about is now we're going to say, OK,
• 50:47
  Speaker 5: we're going to have a barrier around the Capitol. We're
• 50:50
  Speaker 5: going to have better security protocols. And it's like, OK, well,
• 50:53
  Speaker 5: that's great. But what happens if the Congress just comes
• 50:57
  Speaker 5: in and flips the goddamn presidential vote because they've all
• 51:00
  Speaker 5: been overtaken by Donald Trump's base?
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: And so.
• 51:08
  Speaker 5: I think we have to worry about both things, right?
• 51:10
  Speaker 5: The physical security of the Capitol, but also the electoral
• 51:13
  Speaker 5: count act and the extent to which there were some individual,
• 51:18
  Speaker 5: I don't even call them brave, but there were some
• 51:20
  Speaker 5: individual election administrators who did the right thing. I don't
• 51:24
  Speaker 5: think it's that brave to like abide by the results
• 51:27
  Speaker 5: of an election. I don't think we should count that
• 51:29
  Speaker 5: as an act of courage, but there were individual decisions
• 51:32
  Speaker 5: that were the right ones throughout the country on both
• 51:36
  Speaker 5: sides of the aisle and And I think we just
• 51:38
  Speaker 5: have to, I mean, one thing I direct your listeners'
• 51:42
  Speaker 5: attention to is secretaries of state and county clerks, to
• 51:46
  Speaker 5: the extent that they're elected, there's some bananas people running
• 51:49
  Speaker 5: for that with Trump's endorsement, almost explicitly desiring to overturn
• 51:55
  Speaker 5: the election next time. So I worry about all that.
• 51:59
  Speaker 3: Can I ask you a little inside baseball question here,
• 52:01
  Speaker 3: which is about the Senate parliamentarian?
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: Oh, sure.
• 52:03
  Speaker 3: Last time we cared about the Senate parliamentarian, was when
• 52:07
  Speaker 3: this individual was removing a minimum wage increase from the
• 52:11
  Speaker 3: COVID relief bill. Now there's talk that the big infrastructure
• 52:15
  Speaker 3: bill that you guys are working on could include language
• 52:18
  Speaker 3: that could create a pathway to citizenship for certain undocumented groups,
• 52:23
  Speaker 3: like the Dreamers, farm workers living in the US, potentially
• 52:28
  Speaker 3: essential workers who are from the pandemic. So that would
• 52:31
  Speaker 3: be a monumental step forward on immigration reform. But it
• 52:35
  Speaker 3: seems like once again, this massive bill, this massive decision
• 52:40
  Speaker 3: rests in the hands of the parliamentarians. I guess two
• 52:43
  Speaker 3: part question. How is that the process? One and two,
• 52:47
  Speaker 3: what do you think the hope is here that these
• 52:49
  Speaker 3: immigration provisions could could stay in the bill?
• 52:52
  Speaker 5: Let me take the first one, the last one first.
• 52:54
  Speaker 5: I'm reasonably hopeful about it. But as it relates to
• 52:57
  Speaker 5: the parliamentarian, I guess I would just say that we
• 53:00
  Speaker 5: ought to be careful not to make this like her fault.
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: This is our fault.
• 53:04
  Speaker 3: No, no, no.
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 53:05
  Speaker 5: In the Senate that we have devolved or delegated our
• 53:10
  Speaker 5: authority over lawmaking to an unelected person who's interpreting the
• 53:15
  Speaker 5: law or our own internal rules best we can. It
• 53:19
  Speaker 5: is within our authority to to overrule the parliamentarian who
• 53:23
  Speaker 5: is not an elected official. She's trying her best. She's
• 53:26
  Speaker 5: on the level. Of course. It's our fault.
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 53:30
  Speaker 5: And so, of course, I want everything possible to fit
• 53:35
  Speaker 5: through this reconciliation aperture.
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 53:39
  Speaker 5: But if it doesn't, I think we should overrule her
• 53:41
  Speaker 5: because these rules are a creature of us. And it's about,
• 53:45
  Speaker 5: you know, rules in service to of the institution rather
• 53:49
  Speaker 5: than an institution in service of its own rules.
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: Do you think that the clean energy standard could pass
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: through the parliament? The parliamentarian will sign off on that.
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: And if not, like, are there alternative plans for including
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: some kind of carbon pricing in the climate provisions for reconciliation?
• 54:08
  Speaker 5: I don't want to predict. I don't want to. I
• 54:09
  Speaker 5: really don't want to predict what what what the parliamentarian
• 54:12
  Speaker 5: is going to do. It's highly technical. And like, you know,
• 54:18
  Speaker 5: you get professional staff who spend like six hours with
• 54:21
  Speaker 5: her making the case. And so who knows how all
• 54:23
  Speaker 5: that's going to go. But I would just say that
• 54:28
  Speaker 5: I believe a carbon fee still has to be on
• 54:31
  Speaker 5: the table. And the bill that Senator Whitehouse and I
• 54:35
  Speaker 5: and Martin Heinrich and Kirsten Gillibrand and others have introduced
• 54:41
  Speaker 5: is a progressive carbon fee. And I think that one
• 54:44
  Speaker 5: of the things that's happened is over the last couple
• 54:46
  Speaker 5: of years is I spent a ton of time with
• 54:48
  Speaker 5: environmental justice leaders who had real reservations about a carbon fee.
• 54:51
  Speaker 5: But frankly, a lot of the reservations were based on
• 54:54
  Speaker 5: like a sort of Exxon sponsored organization that wants a
• 54:58
  Speaker 5: carbon fee so they can just kind of like move
• 55:01
  Speaker 5: on from this. And they wanted every single dollar of
• 55:05
  Speaker 5: revenue to be remitted. They want it to be revenue neutral,
• 55:07
  Speaker 5: which means all the money gets remitted back to the
• 55:10
  Speaker 5: rate payer and the taxpayer and And our model is
• 55:13
  Speaker 5: totally different. Our model generates revenue for environmental justice, for
• 55:17
  Speaker 5: members of labor unions who are going to be dislocated.
• 55:20
  Speaker 5: Whether or not we pass a carbon fee, coal is
• 55:23
  Speaker 5: not going to last for another several decades. So our
• 55:26
  Speaker 5: carbon fee is progressive. And we spent a lot of
• 55:29
  Speaker 5: time listening, but also explaining that not every carbon fee
• 55:34
  Speaker 5: is sort of written by corporations. Ours is written with
• 55:37
  Speaker 5: them in mind.
• 55:39
  Speaker 3: Um, Senator, I saw in preparing for this interview today
• 55:41
  Speaker 3: that you were the Hawaii state spokesman for the Obama
• 55:44
  Speaker 3: campaign in 2008. I was the Iowa campaign spokesman. John
• 55:47
  Speaker 3: was a speechwriter.
• 55:49
  Speaker 5: Pretty much the same job. Yeah.
• 55:50
  Speaker 3: Well, now you're a U.S. Senator and we read underwear
• 55:53
  Speaker 3: ads for a living. Is there a lesson there about
• 55:55
  Speaker 3: life choices in your opinion?
• 55:56
  Speaker 5: Well, I just want to say someone who was running
• 55:59
  Speaker 5: against me, um, had a pretty good burn about, you know,
• 56:03
  Speaker 5: I was the Obama for Hawaii guy and they were like,
• 56:05
  Speaker 5: oh yeah, you led the committee to, to, to make
• 56:09
  Speaker 5: sure the sun comes up tomorrow morning. So it was,
• 56:12
  Speaker 5: it was not the most difficult campaign. It was a
• 56:14
  Speaker 5: lot of fun and we did a lot of organizing,
• 56:16
  Speaker 5: but our challenge was, Oh my God, we got too
• 56:18
  Speaker 5: many volunteers. There's, we're running out of ballots. Like we
• 56:21
  Speaker 5: got to go to Kinko's.
• 56:22
  Speaker 3: You got like 70%, right? You mopped up.
• 56:25
  Speaker 5: We did great. We did great. Um, but I can't
• 56:28
  Speaker 5: say it was because of me. I do remember a
• 56:31
  Speaker 5: buddy of mine calling and saying, did I just vote
• 56:33
  Speaker 5: for president on a post-it note? I said, I'm pretty
• 56:36
  Speaker 5: sure you did.
• 56:38
  Speaker 3: So good.
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: I didn't know this about you that you were there
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: until Tommy brought it up this morning that you were
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: the Obama spokesperson back then.
• 56:45
  Speaker 5: We called Chicago to try to get like some resources,
• 56:48
  Speaker 5: like some merch, whatever. And they told us to live
• 56:51
  Speaker 5: off the land.
• 56:53
  Speaker 3: That's such a pluff line.
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: I could hear pluff say that.
• 56:55
  Speaker 3: Oh, my God. The other thing that we love is
• 56:57
  Speaker 3: that you and Senator Chris Murphy. the Murph dog, the Murphster.
• 57:01
  Speaker 3: You guys have this special fundraising thing going on Twitter.
• 57:05
  Speaker 3: Do other senators get mad when you only QT him?
• 57:08
  Speaker 3: How does that go over in the cloakroom?
• 57:11
  Speaker 5: It's fine. It's fine. Everything's fine. We all love each other.
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: Is anyone trying to get into your clique?
• 57:17
  Speaker 3: I see Cory Booker.
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: He's thirsty.
• 57:20
  Speaker 3: Michael Bennett seems a little thirsty. Yeah, Bennett, yep.
• 57:23
  Speaker 5: Cory Booker is not that on Twitter anymore. I think
• 57:27
  Speaker 5: he's just decided it was... it was not a good
• 57:30
  Speaker 5: use of his time. In fact, I got to send
• 57:34
  Speaker 5: him tweets and say, hey, look, I tweeted at you
• 57:37
  Speaker 5: because he's not capital V very online.
• 57:43
  Speaker 3: We joke about this because we're obnoxious people, but we
• 57:47
  Speaker 3: can talk to you and you can talk about MIT
• 57:48
  Speaker 3: models on climate change. And then I look at your
• 57:50
  Speaker 3: Twitter feed and when the Gulf of Mexico was on fire,
• 57:53
  Speaker 3: you tweeted, but can we afford climate action? But you
• 57:55
  Speaker 3: did it in the SpongeBob square pants, alternating caps fund.
• 58:00
  Speaker 3: And I think that is what makes you different. I mean,
• 58:03
  Speaker 3: there's this generational difference in terms of how you communicate
• 58:07
  Speaker 3: and how you fundraise that I think our dissenters look
• 58:12
  Speaker 3: at what you're doing and think, oh, maybe I wouldn't
• 58:15
  Speaker 3: have to run to some lobbying shop on K-Story to
• 58:19
  Speaker 3: raise money if I was a little more savvy with
• 58:21
  Speaker 3: some of this online fundraising.
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: That they're doing.
• 58:22
  Speaker 5: Well, I don't know about the fundraising piece, but I
• 58:24
  Speaker 5: do think more and more members are running their own Twitter,
• 58:28
  Speaker 5: you know, and it's getting more interesting because sort of
• 58:31
  Speaker 5: one of the things that I've said and Corey in
• 58:33
  Speaker 5: particular has said to the whole caucus is if you're
• 58:35
  Speaker 5: prepared to talk to somebody, you know, while you're walking
• 58:38
  Speaker 5: onto the Senate floor on the fly, then you should
• 58:42
  Speaker 5: be prepared to do your own tweets, right? Because I
• 58:46
  Speaker 5: think the fear, right, is you're going to tweet something
• 58:49
  Speaker 5: that you didn't mean to say, but it's you've got
• 58:52
  Speaker 5: more control over what you write and then press send.
• 58:56
  Speaker 5: Then then like how you respond to like someone from
• 59:00
  Speaker 5: roll call sticking a microphone in your mouth on your
• 59:03
  Speaker 5: way to the Senate floor off of a red eye flight.
• 59:06
  Speaker 5: And so there's a bunch of members who are getting
• 59:08
  Speaker 5: a little more comfortable in in the medium. And then
• 59:11
  Speaker 5: a bunch of communication staffers who are, um, getting gray hair.
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: So nervous.
• 59:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Obama probably wouldn't have tweeted.
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: Oh, but no, the Obama's probably would have been that
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: his tweets would have been like, he's like, look, here's
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: my 140 characters, and now I need a 25-part thread.
• 59:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that would have gotten him into trouble.
• 59:31
  Speaker 5: No, it would have been a link to a Medium post, right?
• 59:36
  Speaker 3: Look what I have said, link to Medium post, 11-minute read.
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: Remember when he, like, dropped off a blog on your
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: desk for the Daily Kos about John Roberts confirmation? It
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: was like, yeah, he wanted to be a Daily Kos blogger.
• 59:48
  Speaker 5: Hey, I got a question for you about your president.
• 59:53
  Speaker 5: Is he online with, like, lurker accounts?
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: I think so.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 3: So he was online to play Words with Friends. That
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 3: was a thing, a real security potential violation threat issue there.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 5: Wouldn't he just smash at Words with Friends? Wouldn't he
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 5: just kill everybody?
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 3: He would just crush Reggie.
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think they just played with him to make
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: him feel good. I think that when he.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 3: Pete Sousa.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: He had his iPad and he could read the news
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 2: on his iPad. He wasn't like on Twitter, at least
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: back when.
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: No, I'm.
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 5: Talking about now. That's what I'm wondering.
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: I think he is more, I think he is like
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: informed in a way that you'd be like, well, how
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: did you know that if you haven't been scrolling around?
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: But I could also, he does like, he goes to
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 2: the Washington Post, New York Times, Wall Street Journal. He
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: reads like the top red, most shared stories. He's kind
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: of gets it that way. Sure, he's at the Atlantic, right?
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: All the very Barack Obama type places that he gets
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 2: his news from.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 3: He's also disciplined enough to go on Twitter for 11 seconds,
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 3: realize it's low calorie garbage and walk away. Unlike us.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 5: Yeah, that's what I would imagine is like I give
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 5: I give it 12 minutes a day and I scan
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 5: and see if there's anything I need to know. And
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 5: then I move on to more long form stuff where
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 5: it's like I keep scrolling and going like I should
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 5: probably I should probably read something that's longer than than
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 5: a tweet. Oh, but what about this thing? Oh, but
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 5: what about this thing? And so it's only on the
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 5: airplane that I can do the long form stuff.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I'm the worst because I give my wife.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 3: grief if she's on TikTok too much. And I'm like,
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 3: you're on Twitter all day long. And it's just a
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 3: chat room for nerds.
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: It's really bad when you're even reading like a story
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: in the Post or the Times and you're like checking
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: Twitter in the middle of reading the story. That's what
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 2: I'm like.
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 3: All right.
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 2: My my attention span is now nothing. And this is
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: just garbage what I'm doing to myself.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 3: Can I ask another dumb question? Is the House is
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 3: the congressional gym nice? Why do members love and I
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 3: were talking about this the other day. There's so many
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 3: gyms you could go to in Washington, D.C. Why does
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 3: everybody end up back at the House and Senate gym?
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 5: So I don't know about the House gym. I heard
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 5: it's fancy. My my good friend and the former governor,
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 5: Neil Abercrombie, was the chairman of the subcommittee on the gym.
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 3: Come on.
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: That's a thing.
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 5: And he said he told me that, you know, it
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 5: made him very popular with members. And he was the
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 5: first person to make sure that the women's and the
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 5: men's side were equally resourced, which is a big deal.
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 5: I don't exercise indoors for the most part, so I
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 5: don't go to the Senate gym. I've been inside of it.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 5: It's small and lovely. That's all I can tell you.
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: Well, on that note, I think we should wrap it up.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 3: The first time I see Steve King naked, I'm out
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 3: of there. See ya.
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 2: Now I know anyone who runs for Congress, your highest
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 2: aspiration should be to chair the subcommittee for the gym.
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 3: That's pretty sweet. That's where it's at. Big shoes to fill.
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: Senator Schatz, thank you so much for coming by as always.
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 2: Next time you're in town on a layover in LA,
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: please come by the office so that Tommy can dress
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: up for a reason.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 3: I'll dress down, I guess.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 5: I will do. We'll figure out what we're all wearing
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 5: and match it all up.
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: Okay, thank you.
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: Perfect. All right.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 5: Thanks, guys.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: Take care. Thanks. All right.
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: Let's before we go, take some questions from listeners today.
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: Haven't done that in a while.
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 3: Questions.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 2: Fake name McGee asks. I love that. I love that
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: Twitter handle. What do you think Joe Biden's favorite Olivia
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: Rodrigo song is and why is it good for you?
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: But seriously, is there any crossover between unvaccinated and Olivia Rodrigo?
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: Anyone want to take a shot at either of those?
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 1: I don't get the last part. I haven't looked at
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: her cross taps.
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: Meaning like, was it worth having Olivia Rodrigo? I guess
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: the person is saying, do we really think that there's
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: a lot of unvaccinated people who listen to Olivia Rodrigo
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: and then would be persuaded?
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: Olivia Rodrigo is the first person to have been able
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: to kind of obliterate right-wing misinformation from some of the
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: top spouts on Facebook. It actually was competitive.
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: Her post and Biden's post on Facebook about the visit
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: broke into the top 10.
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 3: You saw a bunch of DC reporters being like, Olivia, who?
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 3: Get me some Springsteen. You know, like trapped in the 80s.
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 3: But yes, she's wildly popular. Again, my sources in the
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 3: White House tell me that Biden loves her ballads, but
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 3: is also into the more like pop punk stuff. So
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 3: I think that Good For You, Enough For You, anything
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 3: with a U in it, Biden's super into it.
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: I think that Biden's favorite song is One Step Forward
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: and Three Steps Back because that's how he views governing.
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: Oh, God.
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that was my.
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: I just want to say that several people... have accused
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: me of being the author of a certain sentence from 2016.
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 1: It's spurious. But I will say, come 2022, we'll have
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: to Olivia Rodrigo to the polls.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: That is, and now we know that it was you
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: that Pokemon go to the polls. All right. Rob asks,
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 2: if you could have one superpower, what would it be?
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 3: Flight. Time travel.
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 2: Time travel is number one for me.
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 3: Reducing the warming of the planet by two degrees Celsius.
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 2: I wasn't that good of you.
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: It really depends on the time travel rules that we're
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: talking about. Yeah, the ability to carbon. Number three, the
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: ability to virtue signal. That's Tommy's superpower.
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 3: Oh, man, that's very funny. I did that one for you, too,
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 3: just to see your faces.
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: That's very funny. My superpower is carbon sequestration. The problem
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: with time travel as a superpower is it really depends
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: on the rules of your universe.
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 3: Are we talking about rafts moving down.
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: A river, a la the Tomorrow War? There are paradoxes.
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: I prefer the primer. version of time travel, but therefore
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: it really, you know, I think it raises more questions
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: than it answers. I also think sometimes we underestimate just
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: how much people being able to fly would transform our society.
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: Gravity is a lot of what we rely on for security. Fences,
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: for example.
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 2: That would reduce carbon footprint right there, people flying.
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: Jason asks, what's the new show we should be watching?
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 2: Here's my top five, starting with number five. Too Hot
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: to Handle, season two on Netflix. Amazing. Trash. Watch it.
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: Kevin Can Fuck Himself on AMC. Great new show on AMC.
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: Very good.
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 3: I have a to-do list that's just sort of running,
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 3: and at some point in the middle of it, it
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 3: just says Kevin Can Fuck Himself, and I had no
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 3: idea if that was a weird note I accidentally wrote.
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 3: That's me telling you to watch that. That really did
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 3: just close a loop in my brain.
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: Dave on Hulu, season two.
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 3: Very funny. Fantastic. Very weird season.
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 2: Very weird season, but very well done, I think. The
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: Good Fight on Paramount +. I love The Good Fight.
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 2: It's very, very good. This is one of the best
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: seasons yet. And number one, White Lotus on HBO is fantastic.
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: I can't believe. It's so funny because all I was
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 1: going to say is I'll recommend White Lotus the second
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: something on that show fucking happens. I love Mike White.
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 1: I actually have been enjoying watching it, but I need
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: something to go down here.
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 2: I don't even need anything.
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: The music is cool. It's funny.
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 2: It's smart. It's so good.
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 3: I watched the first episode last night. I really like
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 3: the mean teen characters. I feel like there's a lot
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 3: of potential there.
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 2: Episode two is even better with the Mean Teens.
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 3: I do love the Mean Teens. They're hilariously mean.
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 2: The second episode is even better than the first, I think.
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 3: If you want to know if Olivia Rodrigo can talk
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 3: people and stuff, those two could convince literally anyone to
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 3: get vaccinated just by mocking them.
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 2: There's a follow-up on this question. Peps asks, is Tommy
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 2: to blame for the inexplicable and ongoing success of Emily
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 2: in Paris?
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, he's a cultural influencer and he loves
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: the show and he's been promoting it basically nonstop. I'm
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: wondering if you have some points on the back end. Uh,
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: I guess I'm getting, je m'appelle Tommy. Oh no.
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 2: Oh no.
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 1: Um, I like Loki a lot.
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 3: I haven't, what's it about?
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: It's about Loki. It's about a Tom Hiddleston.
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 3: He's like Loki.
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 1: Uh, he's, uh, you know, he's, uh, he's a trickster. Um, and, uh,
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 1: he gets himself some, uh, hot water and, uh, you know,
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: it's hard to explain. It's enjoyable. I love Tom Hiddleston though.
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: Tom Hiddleston and anything, the night manager. Great show.
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 2: Love the name manager.
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: Also, hey, listen. I've been very critical of my friends
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 1: over there at the Walt Disney Corporation.
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 3: We have a.
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 1: Why?
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 3: Don't mess with them.
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: We have a main character. We have a main character.
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 3: We love you, Bob.
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 1: He is LGBT. He is bisexual. And I appreciate it. Now,
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: has he acted upon that in any way? Of course not.
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: But we're moving forward. All right? We're moving forward. Tom Hiddleston, bisexual, gay.
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 1: A plus.
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 2: And The Filibuster asks, what's your favorite movie that clearly
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 2: set up a sequel you wanted to see which was
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 2: never made? And does the lack of said sequel diminish
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 2: the overall greatness of that movie? I don't have one,
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 2: but I know both of you do.
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 1: I'm going to say World War Z. I wanted more
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: World War Z. World War Z is both a movie
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 1: that should have had a sequel and a great example
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: of successful reshoots. So often reshoots signal that you're going
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 1: to get a disaster. World War Z. I wanted more
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: of it.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 3: Someone told me the craziest reshoot, which was, I think,
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 3: Back to the Future initially didn't star Michael J. Fox.
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. Eric Stoltz. Oh, wow. Here's the craziest part
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 1: about that. This is the saddest thing. They decided to
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 1: change to Michael J. Fox, but they had to finish
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 1: a few days of shooting. And so they were still
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 1: shooting with Eric Stoltz. And they would just be like,
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: don't worry so much about his side. Just get everything
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 1: we need from the other side. Poor Eric Stoltz. Poor
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: Eric Stoltz.
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 3: Eric, you nailed it on the first take.
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: Next.
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 3: I think you're wrong, though, on your sequel. The Passion
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 3: of the Christ. Name a more anticipated sequel than Jesus Christ.
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 3: Jesus Christ.
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: Oh, man.
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 3: Name it.
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 1: Have you heard the good news? That's the tagline for
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 1: Passion of the Christ 2.
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 3: Cast away 2. Someone gets Tom Hanks to take that
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 3: trip to Tahiti he's always wanted. It's just Wilson on
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 3: an island. Yeah, Shawshank 2. Recidivism is a problem.
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 2: This is amazing.
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 2: I like that you put some thought into this, Tommy.
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 1: Thank you. Pretty good.
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 2: Jenny asks, on a recent Love or Leave it, Love
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 2: it rated The Departed as a Scorsese B +. What
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 2: Scorsese movies would you rate as an A?
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 1: And I want to be clear. When I say that
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 1: something is a Scorsese B +, I consider the Departee.
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: Scorsese, sorry. Scorsese.
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 1: I consider it a Scorsese. A Scorsese B +, is
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: better than what most directors will ever achieve. I mean
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: that with nothing but love and admiration for Marty. But
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 1: I love, obviously, Goodfellas. Obviously, Casino. Now, I occasionally, I
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 1: won't say it, that I put Casino above Goodfellas. I
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: do believe that's blasphemous. But I love Casino.
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 3: I do too.
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 1: But I love Goodfellas, and I'm hesitant to even make
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 1: that claim.
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 2: I would do Goodfellas, The Departed, Casino.
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 1: But also, The King of Comedy is awesome. It also
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: is the Joker movie. People should go back and watch
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 1: The King of Comedy before they watch The Joaquin Phoenix Joker.
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 1: You know, I love the Scorsese oeuvre all the way
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 1: back to Mean Streets, but end of thought. End of thought.
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 2: Uh, Alex asked me on average, how many tweets do
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 2: you receive that are clearly intended for the other Jon Favreau?
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 2: I would say about two or three per day. No joke.
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 3: It's a lot. And you get funny emails.
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 2: And I also, and I always know when, um, I
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 2: know when, you know, he's doing something big because I
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 2: get a lot of congratulations. I got a lot of congratulations. Uh,
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 2: I guess he was nominated for an Emmy for Mandalorian.
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 2: I think people tweeted out that, uh, my Twitter handle
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 2: was nominated for an Emmy.
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 1: I think it's funny when people reply to John Lovitz
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 1: and be like, how are you dating Ronan Farrow? How's
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 1: that relationship work?
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 3: John, can we tell the story about how you once
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 3: got copied on notes on The Mandalorian well before it
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 3: was out?
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 2: And I offered my notes. An executive sent an email
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 2: to me and to the.
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 3: Such a massive error.
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: Spoiler notes for The Mandalorian.
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 3: To our Jon Favreau. Would we workshop something funny for
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 3: you to respond? You're like, I agree with most of these, but... Yeah, I.
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 2: Gave a big but. And then I just looped in
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 2: the other Jon Favreau, whose email I have, because it
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 2: happens a lot. Especially since I've moved out to LA.
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 2: Justina asks, have you reached out to Taylor Swift for
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 2: an interview on the pod? Would make the perfect birthday
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 2: gift for Emily. This is us reaching out. Anyone who
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 2: can get in contact with Taylor Swift, let her know
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 2: we would love to have her on the pod. Also,
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 2: I think she could do some great work on convincing
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 2: people to get vaccinated, speaking of role models who do that.
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of bullshit going down in Tennessee. They're
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 2: trying to, like, ban, you know, vaccination requirements in schools
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 2: or even outreach to kids about vaccination.
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 3: About their second dose.
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 2: That's Taylor's home state. She could do a lot of
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 2: good work there. Come on the pod.
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 1: Come on, Taylor.
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 2: Come on, Taylor.
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 3: Come on, Taylor. Should I? I'll follow Jack Antonoff. I
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 3: believe he was doing a lot of work with her lately.
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 3: Maybe we can get him. I like the bleachers a lot.
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 2: Love the bleachers.
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: I'll put Ronan on this.
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 2: Love Jack Antonoff.
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 3: Does he have a contact?
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 2: Come on.
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 1: Are you kidding? Who do you need to talk to?
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 1: He'll get you. We haven't thought of this till now.
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 3: Let's go.
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 3: Make it happen, man.
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 2: Final question. Favorite cocktail, everyone? Never asked this one for
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 2: you guys.
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 3: I don't know. I mean, I'm such a creature of habit.
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 2: I'm an old-fashioned guy.
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Those are great.
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 2: So tried and true.
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 3: Nothing in the summer is real.
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 1: I love, I'm a gin person. I read once that
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 1: George Burns, uh, the ancient comedian used to have a
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 1: steak and a martini after he did comedy. When I
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 1: read that as a kid that like stuck with me.
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 1: So I became someone who ordered martinis at first as
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 1: a kind of, uh, pretentious performance, but then I grew
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 1: to like them, but I do like a classic gin
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 1: martini that has like a proper amount of vermouth. A
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 1: lot of people order, uh, like kind of dirty vodka
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 1: martinis or extra dry martinis. And really what they're getting
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 1: is like, I don't know, pickle juice and a shot
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 1: of vodka. And it's like, what kind of life is this?
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 2: You are not drunk often, but every time I've seen
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 2: you drunk, it's because you've been drinking martinis.
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 3: I take my cocktail cues from Ken Burns and it's
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 3: usually just moonshine in an old bottle.
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 3: Dig out of a river.
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 1: I know. So olives make it a martini. Cocktail onions
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 1: make it a gimlet. What does Oxycontin do to it?
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 2: Jesus Christ.
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 3: What is that called?
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 2: On that note, thanks to Brian Schatz for joining this
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 2: program today. Thank you for that. And we'll talk to
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 2: you later this week, everyone. Take care. Pod Save America
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 2: is a Crooked Media production. The executive producer is Michael Martinez.
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 2: Our senior producer is Flavia Casas. Our associate producers are
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 2: Jazzy Marine and Olivia Martinez. It's mixed and edited by
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 2: Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seglin is our sound engineer. Thanks to
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 2: Tanya Sominator, Katie Long, Roman Papadimitriou, Caroline Rustin, and Justine
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 2: Howe for production support. And to our digital team, Elijah Cohn,
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 2: Phoebe Bradford, Milo Kim, Yale Freed, and Nar Melkonian, who
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 2: film and share our episodes as videos every week.