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Welcome to the Big Ivy League · Why We Do What We Do

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  Speaker 1: You're listening to Why we do what we do. Welcome
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: to Why we do what we do. I am your
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: elite host, Abraham, and I.
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  Speaker 2: Am your scholarly host Shane.
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  Speaker 1: We are a psychology podcast. We talk about all of
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: the things that people and animals do, and sometimes we
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  Speaker 1: talk about the systems that people put in place to
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: both teach each other things as well as create a
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  Speaker 1: sense of superiority.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, who'd have thought that an elite educational institution would
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: create levels of superiority and arrogance and all the things
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  Speaker 2: that go along with coming from one of these places.
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  Speaker 1: And we believe education is good. But in addition to
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  Speaker 1: all of those things, we often do some myth busting
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  Speaker 1: and have some fun, and we like to talk about
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  Speaker 1: human behavior and the products of human behavior and how
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: that all works out. So, if you are joining us
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  Speaker 1: for the first time, welcome. We're so glad to have
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  Speaker 1: you here. If you end up and join what you
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  Speaker 1: hear on this episode today, there's lots of ways you
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  Speaker 1: can support us, Leaving us a rating and review, liking, subscribing,
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  Speaker 1: joining us on Patreon, picking up some merch, telling a friend.
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  Speaker 1: I'll talk more about those things at the end of
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  Speaker 1: this discussion, but before we dive in, it is January eighth,
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  Speaker 1: and of course that means happy our guy all day everyone.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, I love that bouncing soul song. It's also bubble
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  Speaker 2: Bat Day.
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  Speaker 1: And it's Earth Rotation Day. About time.
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  Speaker 2: I like that. You know, we've been saying it still
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  Speaker 2: for so long. It's International Typing Day, and also I
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  Speaker 2: believe it's also just typing Day, okay, or World Typing Day.
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  Speaker 2: I don't know.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes sense, yeah, type world type. It is
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  Speaker 1: Midwife's Day. We did an episode on Midwiferee, what a
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  Speaker 1: great time.
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  Speaker 2: It is National English Toffee Day. Delicious yep.
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  Speaker 1: It is National joy Germ Day. I don't know what
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  Speaker 1: that means.
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  Speaker 2: I don't know what it means either. It's also National
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  Speaker 2: Snuggle a Chicken Day, as long as that chicken is
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  Speaker 2: not pecking you to death.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, consensual snuggling, I guess.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, So joy Germ refers to the idea that good
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  Speaker 1: moods can spread very quickly, so try and be joyful
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  Speaker 1: and spread the cheer, I guess is the idea.
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  Speaker 2: That's a nice sentiment.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. It's also a National Winter Skin Relief Day, okay.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, lotion I guess. It's Show and tell day at work.
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  Speaker 2: Be careful what you show.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and what you tell.
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  Speaker 2: M hmm.
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  Speaker 1: I want to lock that one up if that gets
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  Speaker 1: too out of control too quickly.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, maybe some some rules around that.
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  Speaker 1: Perhaps relatedly, it's take the Stairs Day.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I like that. It's War on Poverty Day.
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  Speaker 1: Oh, that's probably a topic we should tackle at some point. Yes,
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  Speaker 1: it is World Literary Day. Awesome.
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  Speaker 2: Mm hmm. It is Congenital Heart Defect Awareness Week.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, It's National Lose Weight, Feel Great Week.
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  Speaker 2: M h It's National Soccer Coaches of America Week.
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  Speaker 1: National Thank your Customer, Thank you, Thank your Customers Week?
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  Speaker 2: Sure, hm. Yours resolution week the only week that you
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  Speaker 2: do anything with New Year's resolutions.
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  Speaker 1: That's right, the beginning and the end. And someday we'll
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  Speaker 1: laugh about this week is the last one. Someday we'll
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  Speaker 1: laugh about this episode. Maybe we'll see.
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  Speaker 2: We'll see if Jordan Peterson finds this one, we'll see indeed.
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  Speaker 1: Indeed, and so I don't think we actually said exactly
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  Speaker 1: what we were talking about today, but we are tackling the
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  Speaker 1: idea of IVY League schools, specifically Ivy League schools because
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  Speaker 1: there are a lot of institutions of higher academic learning
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  Speaker 1: and achievement and whatnot around the world, and they are
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  Speaker 1: not all Ivy League schools because that means something very
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  Speaker 1: specific that we're going to unpack today. So if you
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  Speaker 1: ever wanted to know what Ivy League schools were or
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  Speaker 1: what they have in common with I didn't actually plan
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  Speaker 1: any of this, So we'll see how well I can
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  Speaker 1: tie things together. Fox News a lot of money, you
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  Speaker 1: know what, I give up. We're just going to talk
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  Speaker 1: about those Ivy League schools and tell you what that
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  Speaker 1: means and the history behind them and how they work.
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  Speaker 1: More or less.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, So let's go ahead and get into what the
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  Speaker 2: Ivy League schools are. So there are eight Northeastern and
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  Speaker 2: I think that want to be really specific about that.
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  Speaker 2: Northeastern schools in the US known for their rigorous admission standards,
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  Speaker 2: high level faculty, notable alumni, and self righteous elitism. And
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  Speaker 2: some of those schools include have a University out of Baston, Massachusetts, and.
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  Speaker 1: Yale University in Connecticut.
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  Speaker 2: You got Princeton University in New Jersey.
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  Speaker 1: Columbia University in New York.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, Brown University in Rhode Island, which is a beautiful campus.
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  Speaker 2: By the way, I've gotten to see that before.
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  Speaker 1: I would love to check that out at some point.
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  Speaker 1: College campuses are just fun. I enjoy them, Yeah, mostly
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  Speaker 1: for sure. And then you didn't do this. One Dartmouth
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  Speaker 1: College in New Hampshire. You didn't do that, right.
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  Speaker 2: I did not do that. One University of Pennsylvania in Pennsylvania.
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  Speaker 1: And Cornell University, also in New York.
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  Speaker 2: So yeah, that's where Andy went.
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  Speaker 1: Oh, that's right, Andy did go to Cornell. Just as
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  Speaker 1: a quick recap of that list, there are eight of them.
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  Speaker 1: They're all in New England. Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Columbia, Brown, Dartmouth,
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  Speaker 1: University of Pennsylvania, and Cornell. You've got two of those
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  Speaker 1: in New York, but mostly in the surrounding Area's sort
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  Speaker 1: of ish there. But in case you're ever wondering what
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  Speaker 1: the Ivy League schools are and how many they are
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  Speaker 1: and what and where they are, that's the list.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, so over one third of US presidents were Ivy
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  Speaker 2: League alumni, reflecting the school's historical influence on national and
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  Speaker 2: global leadership.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, and I think like twenty of them went to
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  Speaker 1: Harvard specifically. If I remember which school it was, but
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  Speaker 1: one of the schools had like the most of them. Interesting, so,
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  Speaker 1: the alumni of the Ivy Leagues include a lot of
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  Speaker 1: notable people. Essentially, you've got Nobel laureates, Supreme Court justices,
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  Speaker 1: CEOs of major corporations, cultural icons, just a lot of
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  Speaker 1: big name politicians who went to Ivy League schools. And
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  Speaker 1: this sort of roster of a pretty successful people has
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  Speaker 1: further cemented the Ivy Leagues and their legacy as sort
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  Speaker 1: of incubators of power and innovation.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, now some of the oldest colleges and campuses in
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  Speaker 2: the country are these Ivy League schools. They began as
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  Speaker 2: modest colonial colleges early in the history of the US,
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  Speaker 2: with the first one founded in sixteen thirty six and
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  Speaker 2: chartered in sixteen fifty and the last one founded and
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  Speaker 2: chartered in eighteen sixty five. So they are very very
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  Speaker 2: very old institutions.
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  Speaker 1: Very old. And what's wild is the two hundred year
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  Speaker 1: gap between the first and the second or the first
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  Speaker 1: and the last one there. Yeah, but they sort of
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  Speaker 1: were springing up during that time. Now. Interestingly, so Harvard
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  Speaker 1: was the very first one, and this was actually initially
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  Speaker 1: built to train clergy as their sort of first priority.
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  Speaker 1: And then there was like, maybe we'll train civil servants
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  Speaker 1: as a secondary thing if we get around to it,
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  Speaker 1: if we have the time and resources to take a
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  Speaker 1: break from our clergying. But yeah, I thought it was
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  Speaker 1: kind of interesting that it started as training for clergy.
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  Speaker 1: I wasn't really sure how much training you need for clergy.
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  Speaker 1: It feels like it's flipped to a random page in
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  Speaker 1: this old book and scrim about hating people. That's essentially
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  Speaker 1: what you do. Yeah, but maybe there's more to it
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  Speaker 1: than that.
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  Speaker 2: Maybe they had a different curriculum back then. Who knows.
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  Speaker 2: It doesn't feel like it though, No, based on what
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  Speaker 2: I've read, not so much. Now. Most of them hugged
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  Speaker 2: the Eastern Seaboard or are deep in New England, in
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  Speaker 2: that land of whimsy and lobster roles with deep ties
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  Speaker 2: to New England culture and history. Membership in the IVY
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  Speaker 2: League is essentially frozen in time due to the schools
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  Speaker 2: founding dates and geographic constraints. New schools really can't join
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  Speaker 2: this league group, making it an enduringly exclusive club. So,
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  Speaker 2: according to a random post we found by some person
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  Speaker 2: claiming to be an expert, supposedly another college could petition
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  Speaker 2: to join the IVY League through their athletic club, but
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  Speaker 2: all of the other IVY leagues would have to approve
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  Speaker 2: their admission, and the odds of which seem vanishingly small.
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  Speaker 2: Much more likely that Donald Trump could beat an Olympic
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  Speaker 2: gold medalist and a half marathon foot race, and just
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  Speaker 2: as a quick side note, he certainly cannot.
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  Speaker 1: No, I'm not sure that he could beat a dying
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  Speaker 1: turtle in a half marathon foot race.
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  Speaker 2: No, no, no, I mean if there was a McDonald's cheeseburger
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  Speaker 2: at the end of that.
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  Speaker 1: Maybe the turtle. Yeah, yeah, definite, definitely not the Olympic
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  Speaker 1: gold medalist.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, exactly.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, so we've been talking about IVY League and if
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  Speaker 1: you are like me, you kept having the question why
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  Speaker 1: is it called IVY League? What does that mean? Now?
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  Speaker 1: Just to make sure we're really clear, because we are
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  Speaker 1: more or less described this, but being in the IVY
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  Speaker 1: League means that you were one of these old schools
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  Speaker 1: founded back in the sixteen or eighteen hundreds, and you're
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  Speaker 1: in New England. If you're not those things, and you
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  Speaker 1: did not join their IVY League athletic club, which we'll
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  Speaker 1: get to, then you're not going to be in the
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  Speaker 1: IVY League, But why call it the IVY League in
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  Speaker 1: the first place. Essentially, this had to do with a
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  Speaker 1: tradition around planting IVY on college campuses. I think it
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  Speaker 1: was a graduation tradition. So it was actually coined in
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  Speaker 1: the nineteen thirties. So this is what sixty years after
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  Speaker 1: the last IVY League school was founded, there's a sports
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  Speaker 1: journalist who was referring to this tradition of planting IVY
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  Speaker 1: on the college campuses, and so he called them ivy colleges.
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  Speaker 1: And so that's where around the time that that term
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  Speaker 1: first started being applied to describe these specific schools. But
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  Speaker 1: then it really solidified and gained popularity as the IVY
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  Speaker 1: Leagues in nineteen fifty four, at the formation of the
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  Speaker 1: IVY League Athletic Club, because they had been called these
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  Speaker 1: IVY colleges because of their tradition of planting ivy, they
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  Speaker 1: formed this athletic club. Amongst those groups of schools that
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  Speaker 1: had been around for at this point centuries, most of them.
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  Speaker 1: This meant that the IVY Leagues are, or at least
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  Speaker 1: were inextricably entwined with sports and highly publicized sort of
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  Speaker 1: competitive events.
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  Speaker 2: Leave it to the United States to make higher education
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  Speaker 2: directly related to sports and not education. Yeah, anyway, so absurd.
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  Speaker 2: So there are lots of ways to rank IVY Leagues.
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  Speaker 2: It's complex and can be easily skewed by metro that
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  Speaker 2: you might not actually think of as any sort of
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  Speaker 2: important in terms of how good a school is. So,
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: for instance, Habit is I'm going to every time I
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: say Harvard, I'm going to say Havid. By the way,
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  Speaker 2: I'm not going to say it with ours. So Habit
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  Speaker 2: is the most difficult Ivy League school to be admitted to,
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  Speaker 2: and it has historically boasted the largest endowments, but it
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  Speaker 2: is not even in the top three for academic success
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  Speaker 2: as measured by return on investment, average student debt levels,
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  Speaker 2: and outcome for graduates, according to Forbes. Now, just so
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  Speaker 2: we're all on the same page, financial endowments are legal
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: structures for managing and perpetrating financial wealth. In twenty twenty one,
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  Speaker 2: Harvard had more than fifty three billion dollars in financial endowments. Yes,
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: fifty three billion dollars.
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  Speaker 1: That's a tremendous amount of money.
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  Speaker 2: Like, yes, that's a lot of money for a school.
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  Speaker 1: I believe that that exceeds the GDP for some small countries. Yes, yes,
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  Speaker 1: for just a school sitting inside the United States. Right again,
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  Speaker 1: I have a strong value for higher education. I think
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  Speaker 1: ultimately having a lot of colleges serving a lot of
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  Speaker 1: people is a very good thing. Having a lot of
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  Speaker 1: money exists in the space to make that feasible seems
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  Speaker 1: ultimately like a good thing, and I think it's worth acknowledging.
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  Speaker 1: And we'll get to this a little bit more that
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  Speaker 1: these have been more of a way to gate keep
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  Speaker 1: success than it has been to disseminate success, if you will, yes, yes,
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  Speaker 1: And speaking of financial endowments, here are some ads to
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: financially endow us.
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  Speaker 2: I guess a tiny endowment.
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: Okay, we are back. We are talking about what these
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: Ivy League schools are here and the fact that they
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  Speaker 1: they're pretty exclusive. Right So, essentially, as we mentioned, Harvard
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  Speaker 1: has the OHAMD has the lowest admission rate, although they
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  Speaker 1: do tend to have quite a few student as well.
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  Speaker 1: It just means that they have a huge amount of
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  Speaker 1: people who apply. I believe I saw percentages ranging from
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  Speaker 1: like three to maybe five percent of the people who
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  Speaker 1: apply are accepted, which does make it pretty easy I
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  Speaker 1: think to appear to be a really good school when
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  Speaker 1: you only accept people who were already very successful, and
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  Speaker 1: then they go on to continue to be successful, and
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  Speaker 1: so not a huge arc that they're sort of overcoming here.
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  Speaker 1: But anyway, they are very exclusive, but they are very
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  Speaker 1: very big. Harvard is the largest, with about thirty thousand
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  Speaker 1: students per year. But what's interesting here is that part
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  Speaker 1: of where their money comes from is research grants, and
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  Speaker 1: so research is often a heavy area of focus for
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  Speaker 1: these colleges, and this means that they are actually more
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: attractive to graduate students than really supporting the infrastructure for undergraduates. So,
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: for example, Harvard and Columbia have about eight thousand undergraduates,
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: but as many as twenty thousand graduate students. Wow, like
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: more than two thirds of the student body essentially is
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: grad students who are there for master's degrees and PhDs
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: and whatever advanced degrees they're going for beyond just a
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: bachelor's degree. I actually did not know that. I figured
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  Speaker 1: it was skewed much more heavily toward undergrads, but because
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: of their research emphasis, that actually is sort of a
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  Speaker 1: maybe more robust environment for grad students, right.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that makes sense if they're going to
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: focus more on research, and that's the space to do it. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: with all those undergraduates being their research participants.
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: Yes, exactly right, that is that is exactly the case.
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  Speaker 2: That's what happens now. Because of the large financial resources
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: of the Ivy League colleges. There are several features that
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: make them stand out. For one, they have so many
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: staff that they can staff classrooms as small as just
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: a handful of students like five per teacher. And this
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: often means more intimate discussions like or lectures, individualized attention,
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: and more or one on one advisement. I mean, you
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: have professors that are there actually doing what professors do,
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: which is lecture and discuss. And as I had a
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: teacher in my program, say, professors are supposed to profess,
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: and we don't get an opportunity to profess if the
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: classrooms are too small, and so we are probably going
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: to do a mini on classroom size impacting educational outcomes
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: at some point in time, actually very soon. But it
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: is I just think very fascinating to think that, like, oh, look,
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: it's a college that actually gets to do the thing
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: that colleges are supposed to do.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: Yes, exactly right. I think it really does set up
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: that environment to allow students to be pretty successful by
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: having that much attention available to each student by these
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: very highly qualified and highly trained educators that they're interacting with.
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: And actually, because of the way that time and recording
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: schedules work, I think that the many that we are
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: going to record on classroom size will actually come out
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: before this one came out. So I think reference that
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: of for more context about that that effect. There. Another
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: thing is because of these large endowments and because of
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: the grants, because of the funding infrastructure that is just
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: unbelievably gigantic for these institutions, they often, if not almost
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: always have like the most cutting edge, state of the
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: art technology, and they're extremely well stocked laboratories, and this
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: of course means that these students who are coming in
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: to be trained in how to do a particular thing,
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: they get to work in these labs that have like
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: the best possible experience they that they could get working
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: with that technology, working with these cutting edge like systems,
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: so that when they go out into the world, they're
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: essentially ready to lead the next innovative push into burgeoning industries.
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: And so That's one of the other reasons that they
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: stand out is because they can throw so much money
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: behind and the training campus that they've built that like,
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: it's even if you're not that great of a student,
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: you're going to be in a pretty stellar environment to
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: learn a lot.
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  Speaker 2: Right, And they often most extremely comprehensive libraries and special
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: subject libraries and even have full blown museums. The Princeton
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: University Art Museum, for instance, has over one hundred and
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: fifteen thousand pieces of artwork.
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: Which again, like, just imagine the boon to a student
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: who's there doing anything related to art that they get
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: to peruse this magnificent on campus museum at their leisure
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: and at their fingertips, right to do whatever, you know,
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: whatever it am I do for them for inspiration or
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: as a reference or whatever. Having it right, there is
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: a level of advantage granted to few. I think, yes, exactly.
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: So anyway, that's essentially I think a breakdown of what
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: Ivy League schools are, where they got their name, and
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: the history of them, and the fact that they Part
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: of what has them stand out as being these institutions
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: of like high academic achievement is that there's a bootload
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: of money that's thrown behind to them, and that means
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: they do put it to pretty good effect in a
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: lot of ways. I mean, they do have, as we said,
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  Speaker 1: these really well stocked laboratories, They hire like the best
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: of the best teachers. They have an opportunity possibly to
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: hire really good teachers, they might not all necessarily turn
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: out that way, and they have a lot of money
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: to throw behind things like funding. The prestige that those
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: universities carry means that it's probably even easier for many
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: people who are there doing research to get the kind
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: of grants they're trying to get. And then you know,
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: they can have these classrooms that are pretty small, and
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: that has a lot of advantages to it as well.
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: But thinking about that, what does this mean in terms
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: of how we all sort of think about and behave
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: with respect to the institution of IVY leagues.
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so, IVY leagues have a pretty significant cultural impact
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: on a lot of different levels. The IVY League's prestige
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: often shaped societal perceptions of success and elitism. When you
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: hear somebody went to Harvard or Cornell, you assume that
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: they've already got a higher level of education than some
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: other people might have had. Admission is not just about academics,
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: but often includes considerations of wealth and legacy status. You
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: might have people that are accepted simply because they had
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: a family member who was an alumni, or their family
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: has a lot of money and their donors to the school.
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: There's lots of things that happen, but even the perception
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: of going to the school would suggest that the person
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: that's going there has something like that in their background
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: or the family history.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: We're going to expand on that in a moment, but
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: I think it's worth pointing out that other people have
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: also criticized IVY leagues in this same space, and they
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: really focus on the fact that it is so exclusive
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: it actually more or less perpetuate socioeconomic inequality by giving
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: the greatest advantage to the people who already have the
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: greatest advantage to be there, which we're going to come
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: back to as well. It also raises some questions about
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: whether the reputation of the school outweighs the tangible benefits
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: of actually like the education you get attending an IVY
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: education university, because think about the fact that, like as
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: I mentioned, they can hire really good teachers. Not all
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: really good teachers are going to even go there, Like
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: truly spectacular genius level instructors may choose local universities and
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: even community colleges and then provide just outstanding instruction, and
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: they do so to an audience of low income students
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: and people of various backgrounds and lived experience and whatnot,
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: And those people might get a better education from those
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: handful of awesome teachers that decide they don't want to
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: move to the East Coast and work at an IVY League.
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: They're going to be perfectly happy situated at their community
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: college in the middle of I don't know, Arizona, wherever
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: they're at, and then people go there and get this
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: just absolutely fantastic education. Even though they didn't have to
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: go through the exclusion process of trying to be admitted
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: to an IVY League school and like have to move
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: to move there and do all of that, they could
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: still get that because again, like the IVY Leagues aren't
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: necessarily scooping up every awesome professor who's ever lived, they
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: do have a lot of resources to throw behind that,
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: and they can do a lot of vetting of the
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: people who are going to try and work there. But
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: there are going to be really great educators who choose
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: just not to go there.
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: Right, absolutely, now, the IVY League is symbolic of academic
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: excellence and elite status, with these associations reinforcing its cultural significance.
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: The significance associated with IVY League membership, prestige, career opportunities
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: in social capital act as a powerful incentive for applicants
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: and alumni. When you have an opportunity to apply at
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: one of these schools, it's very enticing because of the
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: resources and because of the status alone. Just the name
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: on the degree saying that you graduated from Harvard or
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: Cornell or Princeton or Brown like those look really good
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: to respective career opportunities later.
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, really, anybody if they see that someone
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: even attended like often you don't necessarily have to have
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: even graduated to carry that level of prestige with you
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: to some extent. And so people who attended an IVY League,
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: they often might be perceived as better or smarter, or
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: more successful or what have you. And indeed, I mean
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: several graduates of the Ivy League do go on to
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: be very famous and successful. We named the presidents and
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: Supreme Court justices and other politicians and CEOs and like
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: these really really successful people who came from IVY leagues.
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: And then we also maybe don't pay as much attention
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: to these really successful, brilliant, amazing people who didn't go
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: to IVY leagues. But I think it really further solidifies
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: the idea for people that you take like some of
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: the most prestigious careers that people have after they've attended
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: an IVY league, and they can draw the line connecting
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: those things, and maybe there is a connection for a
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: lot of those people, and maybe there's not, Like maybe
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: those people would have gone on to do similar things
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: had they gone to any other college, and we wouldn't
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: know that. We didn't do that experiment, and we probably
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: never will. But what we do know is that what
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: tends to be the case is these highly prestigious universities
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: tend to attract people who are already on a track
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: to be very successful people. They go to these universities,
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: they go be successful people, and then at least in
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: the group of people who were very successful, what looks
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: like statistically significant proportion of them attended IVY leagues. And again,
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: whether or not that's causal, we don't know. It will
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: probably never be able to fully unpack, but it does
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: help solidify the perception of the elitism of those schools
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: by having people who were very successful come from those schools.
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: Right. And so, despite their historical dominance, their role is
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: being challenged by non IVY institutions offering specialized programs and
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: technological innovations. You know, I teach at a couple of universities.
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: They are extremely well thought out curricula, the classes are great,
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: the instructors are good, students are going on to do
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: really great successful things. And they're not IVY League programs.
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: They're primarily focused on stem opportunities. You know, I'm down
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: the road from University Florida. University Florida is an incredible
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: medical program, one of the best in the nation, and
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: it's and you could see that based on all of
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: the opportunities in the research spaces and the residencies that
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: their medical students have across the entire state, because they've
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: set up places for these students to get these unique
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: opportunities and these unique experiences in these medical programs. So
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: not IVY institutions are not necessarily lesser than they just
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: don't have as many plants.
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: Yes, exactly right. And yeah, just just as you were
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: sort of saying, the ability for an institution to cater
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: really well to a few areas of expertise, like a
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: university often just can't be the best at all of
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: those things. They're gonna sort of throw most of the
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: resources behind the thing that they're doing the best already.
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: For some schools, it might be journalism. For some it
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: might be like technological innovation. I think MIT is sort
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: of famously known for that. It might be for psychology,
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: or for economics, or for behavior analysis. Like, there are
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: a lot of schools that have recruited some of the
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: world's best faculty and they're not IVY League, and they
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: became really the go to hub for institutions of those
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: particular subjects because of their fantastic faculty and research that
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: comes out of those institutions. And yeah, they're not IVY League,
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: and it's because, like IVY League can't do it all,
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: and so like, they're probably going to be really really
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: good for some things, but you might choose to go
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: somewhere else if you're looking for the best possible education
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: in a subject that's just not one of their strengths, right,
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: which is totally fair and I think very reasonable.
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. So you look at college applications and you try
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: to figure out how you are going to apply to
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: places like Brown or Cornell or maybe your local your
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: local community college. We're gonna share some ads, and that's
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: gonna help us with our own applications.
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: So maybe that was an ad for like University of
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: Phoenix online.
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: Where I got so many degrees.
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: That's right, just like a vending machine of degrees.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, none of them count.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: It's great, all right. We have a couple of sections
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: here to unpack. And I think that I debated whether
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: it was worth having this discussion in a an episode
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: about IVY leagues. But there has been a huge amount
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: of talk about race and racism and DEI and that
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: sort of thing in the IVY League space, and I
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: do think that it warrants having like a more expanded,
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: full length discussion on those topics. And I think this
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: is actually a little peripheral to IVY leagues. I'm going
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: to do my best to talk about them and link
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: them together, but you'll see what I mean here. So essentially,
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: in the modern times that we find ourselves in IVY League,
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: schools have mostly up until recently faced increasing pressure to
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: diversify their student bodies, expanding beyond the sort of traditional
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: legacy admissions, which, as we said, have to do with
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: generations of families sort of going to the school and
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: they seem to get sort of a pass on admission.
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: I mean, they obviously need to meet some minimum qualifying standards,
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: but it seems like it might be easy for them
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: to get in if they had a family member who
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: also went there and often maybe donates to those institutions,
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: and again that just helps them be I guess more
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: competitive as candidates to be admitted to those programs. So
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: with that, there was some pressure to say, like, this
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: seems kind of unfair, just gatekeeping from people who could
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: be successful but aren't getting the chance because you're not
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: letting them in. And so there was some pressure for
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: them to start expanding the pool of students that they
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: would recruit into their program. And one way that they
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: did that was essentially following affirmative action type policies, which
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: have to do with saying, okay, we're going to ensure
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: that we're at least recruiting some portion of people from
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: these races, ethnicities, or other cultural backgrounds into our program
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: to try and increase our diversity. So let's expand on that.
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: Yes, so it is worth doing an entire episode on
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: DEI in the near future, maybe an entire suite and
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: probably critical Race Theory or abbreviated a CRT in a
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: lot of spaces. But that's gonna be something that we
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: kind of talk about as we go forward. The culture
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: war Nazis continue to throw temper tantrums though about people
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: teaching anything other than a narrative that instructs that the
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: white race is the most perfect, beautiful accomplishment of nature
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: and that we have never done anything wrong. Right time
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: somebody says, hey, maybe maybe we messed up, everybody goes no,
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: not everybody, but just the people on the on you know,
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: Fox News and those folks. But there has been some
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: pretty consistent progress over the centuries to expand access to
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: education and admission across racist beliefs and backgrounds. The governing
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: ethos is that varying perspectives are good for complex, nuanced
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: discourse and collaboration, which of course is accurate, and it
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: is supported through different branches of research, different research opportunities.
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: We see. We're seeing a lot of that happen in
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: behavior analysis right now, where we're getting voices that are
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: not sis straight like white men doing research. We're seeing
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: a lot more diversity in our research, and it's actually
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: doing our field some good.
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: Absolutely. Yeah. The general consensus has been that diversity of opinions, backgrounds,
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: and beliefs has been good. In space is where that's
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: been applied, like to challenge assumptions and to challenge the
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: status quo and to suggest alternative ways of thinking about
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: and doing things. I think the there's a counterpoint that
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: I'll get to at some point in probably a separate
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: discussion that I think people might try and make, but
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: I think for the purposes of this trying to stay
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: on topic, the idea here is toward this effort of
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: trying to more or less expand access for people who
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: could be successful attending these colleges. Many colleges and universities
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: have maintained some kind of program of obtaining racial information
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: about students in an attempt presumably to include people from
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: diverse backgrounds, or at least that is what they report,
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: and I think generally speaking, that is what the plan
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: has been, whether or not that has been ruled out
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: super successfully or in a way that is really as
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: fair as it could or should be. Is definitely a
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: matter of debate that we're not going to get into here,
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: but that I think has been generally the trend is
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: to be somewhat more inclusive. However, there's this conservative political
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: action committee called Students for Fair Admissions, and they sued
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: schools for using affirmative action policies to choose who to
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: admit the schools based on race or having race be
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: a factor in the admission process. And the Supreme Court,
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: which is now mostly just a puppet of the wealthy
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: elite and well trained lapdog of the dictator that gave
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: them power. They overturned decades of previous Supreme Court precedents
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: that had upheld affirmative action in the past, and they
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: sided with that political action committee. As a quick side note,
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: they're not officially a political action committee. They call themselves
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: a legal advocacy organization that just so happens to act
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: just like a political action committee. But that is essentially
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: what happened there is that got challenged in court. The
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: Supreme Court, which is now basically just a joke, did
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: exactly what we expected them to do, which was the
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: wrong thing, and they essentially overturned the precedent on affirmative
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: action as it is being applied to those schools. Again,
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: nuanced discussion that people are going to have different feelings about.
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: But that's what happened.
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: Yes. Now into the decision, several bills, legislation, and pressures
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: have attempted to further reduce affirmative action and DEI programs
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: at universities. We're seeing that in Florida specifically, where any
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: sort of university where public funding is being received at
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: that university, they have actively tried to eliminate any sort
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: of DEI or critical race theory discussions in those universities. Yeah,
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: so you're starting to see that happen on state levels
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: as well. Schools have continued to try to find ways
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: to implement a firm inivection policies and DEI initiatives, but
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: have more or less been forced to dismantle several of
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: their programs toward this end. And when we say forced,
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: we mean legal action, forced to dissolve these programs to
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: eliminate opportunities for students to access these programs.
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: Right, And there are people who argue that the DEI
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: initiatives and affirmative action are more harmful than they are helpful,
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: and essentially they raise concerns about the issue of making
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: any decision based on race. It's sort of following this
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: color blind is good hypothesis that suggests that we should
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: see people only based on their merits and not having
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: to do with race, which essentially ignores people starting place
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: as a consideration, because if your merit is you're born
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: into a wealthy family, that's not very meritorious in my
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: mind right. Nevertheless, that is essentially the argument that is made,
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: and they further argue that implementing these policies makes it
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: more difficult for the highly qualified candidates to be accepted
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: to the exclusion of potentially or I mean, to the
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: inclusion of potentially less qualified candidates. I am not agreeing
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: with them, I am stating their arguments. There has been
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: some research on this. We did not dig into it
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: for this episode as it seems outside of the scope
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: of the current topic. Arguably almost all of this current
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: discussion has been but it might be worth revisiting and
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: actually digging in and on the research for this, because
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: I believe that is it does not necessarily support that
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: narrative as clearly as it would like people to believe.
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: Right, So, of course, one solution would be to make
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: college education a universally available opportunity for people. People can
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: go access college and it's fair for everybody, and there's
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: no reason to deny people, and admissions are easier and
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: not easier, but like it's a little bit fairer, and
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: you actually it would be easier. There wouldn't be any
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: sort of bias in the admissions process per se, ideally
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: in an ideal world.
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that if the concern is legitimately people
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: who are not qualified are getting in to the exclusion
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: of people who are qualified, then a really basic, easy
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: solution would be to make it easier for everyone to
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: go to colleges and essentially to make it universally available
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: as part of a program that is accessible to citizens.
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: And so if the concern was everybody has a fair
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: shot to go to college, then that would be a
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: pretty reasonable solution. If that's not actually your concern, then
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: you probably don't like the idea of universally available education,
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: and probably your motives are a little bit more suspect.
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: I'm guessing specifically in one direction that we'll get to
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: here in a moment right now. With all of this,
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: I personally believe that the narrative against DEI is being
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: done in bad faith. I think it is a political
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: propaganda scheme to try and advance racist policies by giving
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: like the veneer of a thoughtful critique. I think it
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: very cleverly asserts a plausible seat of criticism and then
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: cherry picks data or fabricates a whole cloth that at
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: least appears to give some credibility for their argument, and
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: it just starts a discussion no one needed or was
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: really asking for. And its only goal here is to
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: cast doubt, to sow confusion, and to tap into any
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: latent racist tendencies people have been quietly sitting on for
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: a while. I do not think this is a legiti
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: discourse that people are having to try and improve the
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: accessibility in schools. I believe this is a propaganda campaign
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: to advance racist policies. It has all the makings of one. Really.
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: I think that if we start with the question do
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: we believe that people should have access to these institutions,
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: Let's assume that we even have some criteria that they
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: need to work for it in one way or another
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: like to earn a scholarship or something like that. If
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: we believe that they should have access to it, then
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: essentially we have agreed on the central thesis of DEI.
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: We're on the same page. If we don't agree, then
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: there's probably a very specific reason, and it's almost certainly
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: an elitist one, if not an outwardly racist one. And
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: so I think that's worth considering that this discussion, I
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: think is not an actual attempt to further improve the
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: accessibility to have the best outcomes for people who are
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: trying to attend college.
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: No, it's absolutely like it's like a group of people
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: hoarding power. That's what it is. It's hoarding power. It's
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: gatekeeping power. And education is power, right. Giving people knowledge
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: very much so, and giving them information and arming them
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: with information is an incredible thing that we should be
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: doing more often, but we don't because people are afraid
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: of the educated working class. We can't let people get
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: educated because if we do, they'll overthrow us, They'll wealthy elites.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: That's why billionaires are so afraid of us right now.
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and so instead we make them listen to ads.
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: So essentially I hear I think that attempts to dismantle DEI,
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: which I think we said stance for diversity, equity and inclusion.
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: Right if we didn't, now we did.
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: Now we did. Yeah, So attempts to dismantle this diversity,
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: equity inclusion initiatives. They're much more about protecting racism systematic
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: or otherwise than they are fairness or liberties. And the
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: effectiveness of this plan can be seen in the fact
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: that they have even turned people who would benefit from
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: those policies against them, and they do, I think a
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: really good job of being a hucksters, of swindling, of hoodwinking.
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: I think they are essentially just using propaganda techniques to
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: convince people of to go against their own interests in
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: the interest of people around them and people that they
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: care about, by telling them either like these don't support
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: you white people, so you should be against them, or
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: you people who are not white, these don't support you
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: because no one actually cares about how successful you really are.
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: They're just gatekeeping, right, And then both people end up
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: being against it when that person essentially was just trying
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: to stoke the flames on either side. It's like it's
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: a arms dealer in a war, like I don't really care.
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: As long as these guys keep fighting, I don't care who.
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: I don't really want anyone to win. I'm gonna keep
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: selling you weapons and Ammo and like that's kind of
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: what I think the argument against DEI is, I think
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: it's just trying to distract people with hate and anger
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: so that they're not having better conversations.
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, so I think with that conversation, because I think
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: that discussion is a very nuanced one, Like I would
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: imagine at some point in time we are going to
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: tackle those things. I do think. Kind of sticking back
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: to understanding the context of the Ivy League schools, one
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: of the things that's worth unpacking are as we like
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: to do on here, the myths and the facts. We
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: like to myth bust here, and we like to look
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: at what's actually happening. So let's go ahead and dive
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: into some myths and realities that are related to Ivy
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: League schools. So one myth is that Ivy League schools
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: guarantee success. The reality is while their networks and resources
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: are vast and there are lots of kind of this
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: is kind of the argument for like funding education in general,
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: is that with more money and more resources inside of
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: education spaces, people may do better, They may have more opportunities,
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: and they may have more resources to learn and to
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: do better. However, the fact is is that while those
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: networks and resources are vast, success depends heavily on individual
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: effort and external factors. What that person is going through,
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: what their life circumstances are, and all of those other
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: things that are additional stressors that may influence whether or
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: not they can actually go into an education setting successfully.
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And so I think a lot of times
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: people think that, or at least they make the case
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: that throwing money at something will fix it. And sometimes
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: it does, and it's not worth like not funding an
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: important thing just because we're like, we don't know if
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: this is going to work. Like, sometimes it's worth funding
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: it anyway. But I think looking at the staggering success
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: of these universities financially does not necessarily suggest that everyone's
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: going to be successful in that space, right, Speaking of which,
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: another myth here is that they have limitless funding. Now
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: they do sit on these very very very large endowments,
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: but I think it's important to understand that is often
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: directed towards specific initiatives and also their financial aid can
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: really vary significantly, And so the economy of a university
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: is something I can barely wrap my head around. It
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: is crazy how much money goes in and out of
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: that institution at any given moment. I mean, they are
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: first of all, paying gigantic salaries to their professors. They
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: are taking huge chunks from grants that their research professors earn.
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: They are obviously charging people for every aspect of interacting
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: with the university, from applying to paying fees, to buying books,
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: to registering for classes to dropping classes. I imagine they've
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: got fees if it's past a certain date or whatever.
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: They charge for parking, for housing, for food. Like they
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: are like little cities being run on a campus, like
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: inside a city, and it is wildly, wildly complex, and
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: the amount of money that moves through there would boggles
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: my mind. It's like more complex and larger than as
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: we mentioned earlier, like some countries, it's so much going on.
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: But like that being said, like that money is often
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: spoken for in many places, and so like they might
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: use some of that to fund things like some scholarships,
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: but then like they eventually run out of the money
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: that they had allocated toward that, and maybe they need
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: to allocate more, but it would mean pulling from some
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: other place like parking enforcement, which they could probably pull
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: money from anyway. Just to unpack, I think the financial
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: reality of those institutions is like they do have a
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: lot of funds. Those funds are being used in a
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: incredibly complex little economy that not even little like it's
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: it's actually pretty big.
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: Can I just say that, I think that we're ushering
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: in a new era of the podcast, moving into the
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: four hundreds of this episode, because we have gotten through
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: this entire episode without making a single joke about the
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: colleges being well endowed. That is maturity at its finest.
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: My friend, we made it this far.
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: We made it this far.
• 43:07
  Speaker 3: Good catch, good catch, you know. I just it's it's
• 43:11
  Speaker 3: just it's growth. It's growth. We are we are adults,
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: we're nearing our forties. It's we're doing a good job.
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: It reminds me of the Monty Python joke from the
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: Monty Python and the Holy Grail, where he's like, she
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: has huge tracts of land.
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: Oh man, I love Monty Python.
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah. For those of you who have not seen it,
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: he was gesturing to his chest area to imply breasts
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: and then changes it to say tracks of land, which, anyway,
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: what a great show.
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so consider also, being well educated is no guarantee
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: that you'll have scruples and be a good person. Arguably,
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: it can make up make bad people worse by teaching
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: them how to better exploit those around them and manipulate
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: systems to their own end. This might be increasingly true
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: for people who attend simply because they are wealthy and
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: come from a legacy of a wealthy family who went
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: to that school and donated. College should be a place
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: that teaches you critical thinking, and there are lots of
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: examples of people who have attended these schools that lack
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: critical thinking. There is no clear way to measure or
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: guarantee this. Rond DeSantis, Ted Cruz, Josh Holly, Tom Cotton, Ganinggriz,
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: jd Vance, Elist, Stefanick, Blake, Masters, and Bill O'Reilly all
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: went to Ivy League schools. And if you don't know
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: those names, you are very lucky. These are the kind
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: of people who would kick a baby stroller into traffic
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: if it was in their way. I'd rather be friends
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: with the kind of person who never finished public school
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: than a parasitic, anal wart piece of shit like Robert F. Kennedy.
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: Ivy League schools do not equate to good people or success,
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: and it is so important to remember that just because
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: something has a brand name doesn't make it quality.
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: Yes, very much so so. I actually, and having sort
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: of seen some of the lists of graduates from Ivy leagues,
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: I've looked at him and thought, are you actually like
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: a good school, because like, these are terrible people that
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: have turned out of this system. And again, I think
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: they were terrible going in garbage in, garbage out as
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: the as the saying sort of goes, But it does
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: mean that like they did little to change their trajectory
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: toward a more positive one, and they stayed the stinking
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: filth piles that they ended up being at the end.
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: Anyway, I think it's really important to point out that
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: we're not saying that these folks are unintelligent, right, They're
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: just not great.
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's almost worse because it was like you
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: had the opportunity and the power to be a better
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: person and you specifically chose to be a dirt bag instead.
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly, Like a lot of people.
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: Don't know any better. But like you knew better, and
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: you chose this path.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: Anyway, right, you chose poorly.
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: So anyway, I think that's what we have to say
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: about ivy leagues. There's probably more to unpack inside of
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: some of these, but I, you know, curious about the
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: history of them and what it entailed to be in
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: the ivy league, understanding some of the complexity around the
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: DEI and affirmative action stuff that's been happening very recently.
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: The Supreme Court case, I'm pretty sure it was in
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, although I believe it started from a
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: series of court cases that began in twenty thirteen but
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: ended up finally at the Supreme Court ten years later. Right, anyway,
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: a lot is happening very fast in this particular space,
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: as the sort of cancerous arm of the alt right
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: movement is metastasizing across various aspects of our culture with
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: really depressing efficiency. But yeah, so that's essentially where we
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: find ourselves at this. I thought it was fun to
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: tackle this, but hey, we ended up being sort of
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: on the shorter end of things. Yeah, look at us
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: go it really happens.
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, speaking of depressing efficiency, here's another ad.
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: All right. If you would like to tell us your
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: ideas about IVY League schools, or your experience going to
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: IVY League and you want to defend it, or your
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: experience not going to IVY League and having a great experience. Anyway,
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: we're game for all of that. You can email us
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: directly at info at wwdwwdpodcast dot com. You can also
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: reach us on the various social media platforms, including and
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: definitely on the Blue Sky, and we would be happy
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: to hear from you. You can also leave us a
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: rating and a review. Click those five stars helps other
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: people find us. You leave in a review that helps
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: even more people find us. And of course you can
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: share us by word of mouth, which is like how
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: I've found and listened to almost every podcast I still
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: listen to. So just tell someone about us and then
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: they can check it out and decide if that's something
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: they want to keep listening to. And if you are
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: one of those people who heard this by word of
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: mouth and have found us today, hey, thank you for
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: being here. We're really happy to have you. Other ways
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: that you can support us include going over to our
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: merch store and picking up some merch or you can
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: be a sort of a member for as long as
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: you'd wish, and you can head over to patreon dot
• 48:03
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• 48:06
  Speaker 1: you get access to some behind the scenes content, early
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: accessed episodes that sort of thing. And I will read
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: your name at the end of these full length episodes specifically,
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: thank you too, Mike m Megan, Mike T, Justin, Kim Brad, Stephanie, Olivia,
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: Brian Ashley, and Kiara. Thank you all so much for
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: your continued generosity and helping us do this show.
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: Yes, we adore you to the moon, we adore eat.
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: To pieces indeed, And then, as I said, there are
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: other ways to support us, but I think I listad
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: what they were because it was like reviews and ratings
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: and that sort of thing. But yeah, so thank you
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: so much for listening. Of course, thank you to my team,
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: without whom I could not do this. Justin does our
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: sound engineering, audio and all the goodness that makes this
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: sound good and writing in fact checking from Shane to myself,
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: and our social media coordinator is Elma Wilson. We actually
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: do end these episodes with some fun recommendations that are
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: typically unrelated to our topic. At hand, which I believe
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: is the case today. So let's get to recommending some things.
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: Let's do it.
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: Recommendations, all right, I'm recommending a TV show. It is
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: not for the faint of hearts. This is Squid Game
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: on Netflix. Just came out with season two. It's only
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: seven episodes, not terribly long. I think it was seven
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: right around there.
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: And it.
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: Is very very violent, and yeah, that's about it. It's
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: very very violent, a lot of people doing terrible things
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: to each other, but it is really really compelling storytelling.
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: So if you haven't seen season one and you're interested
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: in the sort of thing, feel free to check it out.
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: This is I think it is like a South Korean
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: TV show, and it has subtitles or dubs depending on
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: how you want to go that route, or maybe you'd
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: speak Korean and just want to listen to it that way.
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: That sounds great too. It follows essentially a sort of
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: if you're not familiar with it, it's sort of like
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: a game show competition, but where it weeds people out
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: by killing them, yes of the competition, and it starts
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: with four hundred and fifty six or four hundred and
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: sixty five something like that. People and then weeds them
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: down eventually to just one yes, through a series of
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: very dangerous and deadly games so to speak that they play.
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: And so season two picks up right where season one
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: left off and keeps going. It does unfortunately, and at
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: I mean calling a cliffhanger is generous. It's literally like
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: the middle. It felt like the middle of an episode.
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: It was like, and we're done. So I'm not sure
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: if there's gonna be like a part two to season
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: two or what, but right now it does not conclude
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: in a particularly satisfactory way, but the story is still fantastic.
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: So if you're into it, go check out Squid Game
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: over at Netflix.
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: Nice Nice. I never saw the first season, but I've
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: always heard that it's really good, Like it's very entertaining.
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: It is entertaining. It has a lot of sort of
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: edge of your seat, like, well, what's going to happen here?
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: Type stuff? And the second season gets off to a
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: kind of slow start, but it still has you pretty
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: much on the edge of your seat the whole time,
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: like wondering what's going to happen next?
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Nice, I like that. So I am recommending a book.
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: I just finished this nonfiction story called Corporate Rock Sucks
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: the Rise and Fall of SST Records. It's written by
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: a guy named Jim Ruland. And this guy is known
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: right now for helping write some nonfiction about like the
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: world of punk rock and some things that have happened
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: in that world. He did the memoir or the biography
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: of Bad Religion, which was really good. Oh and so
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: this one is about SST Records if you're not familiar
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: with that. The guitarist of Black Flag started a record
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: label and had like it was an indie label that
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: was explicitly out to kind of like subvert some of
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: the corporate rock statuses that were going like some of
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: the things the status quo that was going on during
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: the early eighties through the mid nineties. They did this
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: really cool thing where they would sign their friends bands
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: and they would just not touch the music. They would say,
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: you do what you want, we will put out your records.
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: Here you go. And it started kind of The one
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: artist who's the guitar player's brother went on to put
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: a bunch of art in museums and stuff. He's known
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: for his kind of like more aggressive punk flyers and whatnot.
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: But he's done some cool things. And you know this
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: record label signed Whoskerdoo, signed Soundgarden put out Soundgardens first record,
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: Sawnic Huth. Like a bunch of bands flocked Screaming Trees.
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: They flocked to this record label because it was such
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: a big deal and it just collapsed under its own weight.
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: And the stories is really really interesting and so it's
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: like three hundred and fifty pages and it just is
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: just a really great read if you like that sort
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: of thing.
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: Wow, okay, yeah, very intriguing. Cell I'm pretty curious now
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: to hear more about this because it's like a great
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: idea on paper. Yeah, so interested to see how that
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: spins out.
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: It's a good read for sure.
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: Okay, all right, So that's Squid Game season two and
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: maybe season one if you're into it. Well, I mean,
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: if you watch season two without season one, I think
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: you'll be kind of lost. You think you need season one.
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: And Corporate Rock sucks. The nonfiction book about STS records, it.
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: Was called SSD Records.
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, SST Records. Okay, all right, perfect, So you can
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: go check those things out. And anyway, thank you all
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: so much for listening. If you made it this far,
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: we appreciate you, as I said, go support us over
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: the ways that you'd like, and thank you for recording
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: with me today. Shane, is there anything you would like
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: to add or anything that I forgot before we wrap up?
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: Not at the moment.
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: All right, then this is Abraham and this is Shane.
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: We're out. So yeah, you've been listening to Why We
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: Do what we do.
• 53:46
  Speaker 3: You can learn more about this and other episodes by
• 53:49
  Speaker 3: going to WWD WWD.
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: Podcast dot com.
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: Thanks for listening, and we hope you have an awesome day.