Latest / Business Roundtable / Mastering Leadership with the 48 Laws of Power

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Mastering Leadership with the 48 Laws of Power · Business Roundtable

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Hey, everybody, here we go back for the Business round Table podcasts.
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Returning guests Bill and Doxy Uh. For those of you that may be listening
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for the first time for some strange reason, we'll give you a brief introduction,
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and we're going to pick up on part two of our conversation about the
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forty eight Laws of Power. But before we do that, just briefly,
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I'm David Carr. I'm one of your hosts here. I focus on organizational
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health, helping leaders organizations, particularly in the AC industry, become the most
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intelligent leaders and hopefully wheel power. Well, i'll throw it to you,
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Bill, if you want to do a brief introduction this evening. Sure,
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I'm Bill Hatch. I brought a couple of podcasts under Bald Spots Productions and
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help people with their leadership issues. Absolutely in doc You're Gonna You're Gonna Lead
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Us again, brief introduction for the listeners, Yeah, absolutely, Curtis Cocker
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to hear. We are a mergers and acquisitions company and we helped build the
1:04
businesses and actually get them prepared to even exit or acquire other businesses. So
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thank you again for allowing me to be part of this podcast. Yeah,
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well you inspired us. For those of you that are watching us, we're
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going over the book. You can see it on my video here, the
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forty eight Laws of Power by Robert Green. We covered the first five laws
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in our last episode, and so I would encourage you to go back if
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you have missed that one and listen in. And we had so much great
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conversation that with that, let's do another part too, and that maybe eventually
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part three and four, and until we get through the book, because there's
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just it's so rich and so doc C, I'm gonna throw it to you
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to lead us in to law six and kind of catch us up from last
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week. Yeah. Absolutely, you know we did the first five and you
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mentioned if you are just now joining us with number six here in just a
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second, i'd encourage you definitely to go back and listen to the first five.
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It's quite interesting because what you think the law is or what this book
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is about, you might see it totally different. So, as we talked
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about in the first podcast, let's go to number six though, jump right
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in court attention at all costs. Now, this is what was really interesting
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to me when I first read this book years ago, is visibility is power,
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whether it's good or bad. And you know, we talked before we
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jumped on this podcast, and I'll start with you, David about politics,
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which is really fascinating because if you are unseen or forgotten, that's a fate
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worse than death. And that's what this law I was talking about court attention,
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whether it's positive or negative, at all costs, because that brings guess
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what people talking about you? And I thought this was really fascinating. What
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do you think about it? David? Oh Man? This is I mean,
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could could this be more applicable in today's world of social media and everything
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else? About how do we get attention about ourselves? Right? All talking
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about branding, how do we get you know, how do we get the
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eyes on us in a healthy way? And so I just think, like,
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man, I'm I'm interested. I'm packing this some more because this is
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something that everybody knows. Everybody lists kind of like they're doing, but are
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they doing it in a healthy and effective way? And I'm excited to get
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a little bit deeper into this this conversation duc seat. So yeah, just
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as first I saw this as like, man, this is so applicable for
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today's world that we live in. Everybody's fighting for attention and they are doing
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it at all costs. So yeah, that's it really is. We'll jump
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or jump back to you, David, and then Bill, what are your
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what's your thoughts on on little number six with a lot of number six?
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First, well, the the first two things I thought about were one,
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the President Trump is definitely following this law court attention at all costs. He
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is, uh, he is definitely doing that very well. But my other
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thought was that how does this relate to a long like number four? Always
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say less than necessary? If you're if you're saying the minimal amount, how
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are you? How are you courting attention while doing that? You know,
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there's there's got to be a fine line there between the between the two and
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h you know, that's a that's a good wonder, that's a good point,
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that's a good observation. And yeah, you are right that. I
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think mister President Trump, he's he's got this law. He understands this law.
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David, what do you think about that? Yeah? I mean,
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I don't think it matters whether you're a Republican, Democrat, you you name
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it, whatever spectrum you are. I think that there's always this idea.
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And I'm looking at the beginning of this chapter, Doxy, and it has
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this part once around your name with the sensational and scandalous. You know,
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I just think it's interesting, you know, this idea of how how are
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we drawing attention to ourselves? It's even even a controversial image. Elon Musk,
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right, he's very He's constantly drawing attention to himself. Sometimes it's controversial,
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you know, of how he's doing that, the statements that he's making,
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right, but he's got eyeballs on him and and people are looking very
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closely at his company. So you know, one of the statements here that
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stands out to me is that says better to be slandered and attacked than ignored.
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Are you relevant or kind of are you polarizing in some way? Are
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you kind of just if you're just kind of all things to all people,
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maybe you may just kind of fall to the background, But are you kind
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of standing out somehow? You know? And I think that I think that
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that is really the intent here, is is court attention, which really means
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to stand out, because if you just if you're just within the mix of
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the crowd, I mean, you might be the best at whatever. You
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know, fill in the blank. But if you don't stand out, it's
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I think this has to do with marketing one on one really, you know,
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I think I mentioned on another podcast, but I played basketball with with
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Dennis Rodman, and I don't know if you remember Dennis Rodman as you remember,
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yeah, use a character. Yeah, And you know I said,
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right next to him and we had a dinner before Nationals and he was the
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nicest gentleman you ever met. Yes, sir, no, sir. Everything.
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What he did is he took marketing in the NBA to a new level.
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And what he also did is not only did he bring the scandal or
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or shall we say, the opposite of say a Michael Jordan or Magic Johnson
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or Larry Bird. He brought sales. He brought in tickets, he brought
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in people. And that's they wanted to know what his hair color was.
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They wanted to know all these kinds of things. And that's that's court detention,
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in my opinion. M hm, yeah, absolutely, yeah, No,
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I mean, we just got Charlie on here, Charlie on the move.
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But we're glad that he's joining us. Charlie. Uh yeah, Charlie
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missed our last last conversation last week, so you get to come in,
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Charlie and and speak on uh this power court attention at all costs. So
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I'd love to get your thoughts too. You able to chime in there,
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Charlie, Are you on the move? Yeah? Yeah, there's there's no
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no new no, there's no such thing as bad publicity, right, So
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if you're everything to everybody, then then you don't stand for anything. So
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and this is especially hard for me. I don't know if you guys are
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familiar with the neogram. It's basically personality tests and there's different nine different types
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and I'm the type two, which is like a uh a helper and people
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pleaser, and I want everybody to like me, and so I don't necessarily
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help people for the sake of helping people. I help people so that they'll
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like me. And so that's especially hard for me to make the stand and
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to to stand for something as opposed to being different things to different people just
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so they'll like me. And that's manipulation. So that's a pitfall of mind.
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So absolutely one hundred percent agree with with what you guys are saying.
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You know, you know, surely That's what's what's great about what you just
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said. I'll be right there is you recognize that a lot of people don't
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even recognize that. And and that's really the purpose of going through these laws
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is that is we want people to actually recognize that maybe some of these laws
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fit into our psychology and maybe they don't, but at least recognize that they
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do exists in business and politics and life. And so it's actually good that
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you actually recognize that. In Yeah, Docxy, I want a question.
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I mean, the way we court attention can be different for different people and
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how we get a poorum just before we came on here, you're you've written
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unless you're working on your thirteenth book. To me, that's a way of
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courting attention as an recognized author in putting this together right. And so there's
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different ways. I think you don't have to be the loud, outspoken person
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on the corner necessarily, you know, calling attention to yourself. There's different
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ways to do it. And so maybe Charlie, your point is understanding your
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personality type or the way you show up. How do you do that,
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because it's not gonna be the same. That's as you use the ideogram.
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Example, I'm having an enneagram nine. It's going to be different. So
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I think it's important if we learn these powers, How do you apply it
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based on your personality? You know? Type right? Good point? Is
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that a question for me? David? Yeah? Well just just okay it?
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Yeah? How how you how we how we call attention to ourselves?
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So you call attention to people by by serving them uniquely and addressing their concerns
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and questions. You know, any bill, any any last thoughts on law
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number six? Well, just that you'd be surprised how how getting attention will
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get you, will get you into people's good graces. I know a few
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people with let's go with less than stellar reputation, less than stellar backgrounds,
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you know, run into uh, into trouble with the law. Who to
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go back to Trump. Now that he's had trouble with the law, they
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are much more amenable to his to his way of thinking because you know it's
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something they can really late to that. You know that they feel they got
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railroaded and UH and are feeling that he's been railroaded now and UH in these
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legal battles. And it's amazing how his numbers in especially in minority group among
12:16
minority groups has has increased simply because he got into trouble with law and that
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got him the attention he needed from from these important groups as far as as
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far as getting uh getting elected from so H. So I find it interesting
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that that sometimes you're what's going on in your life can can get you,
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can get you that the right kind of attention that you need. Interesting any
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last thoughts? Did you know it's funny because why I was telling you earlier
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we came on here. I really like the way this bookas set up where
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it ends these chapter with the reversal, So there's a there's like get all
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attention at all costs, but then it cautions us about what happens if you
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go too far. And so, I don't know about you guys, but
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I'm a SpongeBob fan. I like the cartoon. It is pretty funny,
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And there's this episode where SpongeBob rips his pants like and everyone laughs. They're
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like hilarious, you know, and he's so funny and they're genuinely hilarious.
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But then he thinks, like, I'm just going to keep telling the joke
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over and over, so he keeps telling everybody, I had my pants pants.
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By the end of the episode, everyone's like, oh my gosh,
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this is so annoying. He got it for attention at first, and then
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he kept doing it and kept doing it. It lost the power and the
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focus. So the reversal is like, be careful about how you're doing and
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bringing on that. You know, that power if you're misusing it, you
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know, So I like the caution of that, you know. That's a
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good point too. Yeah, surely. Any last thoughts on long number seven?
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Well, I was I was gonna can you guys hear me better?
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Now? Okay? Are we still talking about the attention? Okay, okay,
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Yeah, I would say going back to just reiterating about taking a standing
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and not selling out based on what's popular or just trying to please Everybody's just
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to be unapologetically, unapologetically authentic and having the courage to be imperfect, because
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so often society and the way we're raised is, you know, we we
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glorify perfection by everything is a competition, and so we somehow operate, you
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know, and and and carry this toxic shame of operating from this place where
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we're flawed and defective and having to be perfect and so just being able to
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authentically show up unapologetically and and having the courage to be imperfect. Mm yeah,
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I would. I would ask maybe Doxy for a second on that to
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follow up, because one of the things on the part two of this is,
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I gee, what Charlie is saying is you be authentic, but also
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do it in a way that talks about create this era of mystery about it.
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So maybe not like everything out there, right, or maybe how you
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want to not to manipulate, but just to like, you know, create
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some intrigue or salt if you will, right, I want to learn more.
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Yeah, you're creating an or a mystery along this idea of you know,
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according to attention is what you're doing, and it really this attention kind
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of can bring you what you know, I think Bill mention it what you
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want, which is which is fascinating and you know, is it a form
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of manipulation? Yeah, you could say that, but ultimately that's exactly what
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these people do using law number six. Well, let's let's go ahead and
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jump to law number seven if if that's okay with you, guys, I
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really enjoyed love number seven. Low number seven get others to do the work
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for you, but always take the credit. Now, getting people to do
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the work for you is one of the things I learned a long time ago.
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But I didn't I didn't take the credit. I gave them the credit.
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So but I learned this a long time ago when I was looking in
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the offer with my dad, is that, Hey, now, if I
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can just get people to work work for me, I can build this company
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better, better, and so forth and so on. But let's start with
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you, Bill, what's your thoughts. I think we all can understand,
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you know, you get people in place to do the work for you,
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to actually build something, but always take the credit. What's your thought on
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that piece. My initial thought on it is that's not fair to take credit
17:18
for things other people do. But it happens all the time, and with
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people who are greatly respected, you know, going going through history, you
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know, people like like Abraham Lincoln greatly respected, had a lot of people
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under him doing a lot of good work, and except for maybe a couple
17:41
of them, most people wouldn't remember remember the names of those peoples, of
17:45
those people, you know, like maybe maybe Seward maybe, uh see,
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that's the only one I can remember right off but but that's because of the
17:56
Alaska purchase. But you know, and there's all sorts of people like that,
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uh, you know, modern times, people like Elon Musk, Bill
18:03
Gates, h Steve Jobs. These guys surrounded themselves and continue to surround themselves
18:12
with very smart, very productive people who don't really get the credit they probably
18:18
deserve. And we don't say anything bad about these people for it. You
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know, nobody is going around said Bill Gates has taking credit for the work
18:26
all these other guys are doing. And he's just such a terrible guy.
18:30
I know, it's it's wild. Look at all the great work he's doing
18:32
at eliminating malaria in Africa, you know, or something like that. And
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you know, same thing with Elon Musk, who I know, I know
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to be a micromanager and which is terrible, which is a terrible attribute to
18:48
have. But but yeah, he's you know, it's like he's taken you
18:55
know, everything from from what was the PayPal to Tesla to now SpaceX and
19:02
people are like, wow, Elon Musk and and X and you know it's
19:07
like he's doing all these great things, you know, all these remarkable things.
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And uh and people you know, white or like or not like him.
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You know, there's a certain amount of respect for the things he's accomplished.
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Yeah, and he's definitely taking the credit for for what the others are
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doing and gotten him the attention it's gotten him long number six Yeah, and
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you know, good point, Jarny, what's your thoughts on number seven there?
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Well, my initial reaction was a little bit, uh, feeling like
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this is a bit egotistical, and I felt like that, you know,
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that saying give credit where credit is due, I think that has its place
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right internally too. Show appreciation for your people, you know, always breathing
20:07
EPR into them like CPR, right like with air, e PR is encouraged,
20:11
praise, recognized. But when it comes to public facing, it is
20:15
important to take credit. It is important to be the face of the organization
20:21
that you represent. And your goal as a business is to make a profit.
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That's the ultimate goal, and of course do it, but while serving
20:32
the world, and part of that is being able to be relatables as a
20:41
human being like you. There needs to be a face of the company.
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That That's why all the names that Bill mentioned, that's why they are the
20:51
name that they are is we need a name to associate with the brand and
20:56
with a mission. And you know the other edge of that sword with the
21:02
credit is taking ownership and responsibility when things don't go well, even if you're
21:07
not the one that messed up. But ultimately, like I said, the
21:11
goal is to make a profit, So of course you have to surround yourself
21:15
with a tighters and and you know, have the right people in the right
21:19
seats on your bus, you know, and get out of their way and
21:22
let them do the work. But you be the face of the company.
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So one hundred agree. Mm hmm, that's good, good point. Yeah.
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I liked in the book as it because it talks about me, me
21:36
being coming from my wildlife biology background. It talks about the hyaenas and the
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vultures, and and it talks about you know, they are not get killing
21:45
the animal that they do. They actually go and take advantage of what was
21:51
killed and and and eat that. And so you know, there's a point
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in it's essentially saying join them, recognizing that there's power and allowing others to
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do what they do best. And that's where I kind of look at it.
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Curtis is saying others to do work for you, meaning do the work
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that you're not the best at, you know, allow them to step in
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and empower them. That's kind of what I do as a leader, Like,
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hey, amazing, do that and they're feeling good about being in their
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zone. And the fact that you are able to provide that way in a
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space for them to do it is great. Oftentimes leaders get in their own
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way, and so you know, I find this as an empowering thing and
22:36
not taking an advantage of things. But I kind of flip it around or
22:38
a my narrative here is really kind of what Charlie was saying is just let
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those people do what they do best, and you do what you do,
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and it's overseeing that group. And the interesting thing at the end of this
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chapter talks about Henry kusing you're doing that with his lower report, and then
23:00
he the opposite of that is, you know, giving credit to others above
23:06
above him. So nowhere you're at kind of in the pecking order of if
23:10
you will, which I thought was a great observation. But I really like
23:14
for me, I really liked this idea of of this the vult image of
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the vulture. Well, it's interesting, David, that you just jumped all
23:22
the way back up to the law number one with kissing, you know,
23:27
never outshine the master, meaning the people above him. He gave him,
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you know, some credit, and that's that's what he did. That's a
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pretty good point. It's interesting how we use these laws as we go through
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it. Any other last thoughts there, David on, Oh no, I
23:45
mean, it's just again, like we talked about last week, what I
23:49
like about this book, and Charlie went on, but to me, it's
23:53
like taking the world map and flipping it upside down. It's still right,
23:57
it's just looking at it like in a different way. And so when you
24:00
use the words the way they say it initially, like like you said,
24:03
well, that's egotistic or whatever. But wait a minute. If I actually
24:07
get people to do the work that they're called to do the best, and
24:11
I'm out of their way, and then I can take credit for allowing and
24:15
creating that space for them to do what they do best, that's a great
24:18
leader in my opinion. Yeah. Well, not only that though, I
24:22
think that, and I think that what Charlie he was saying and even a
24:26
billion times, is that, you know, some people don't want to lead.
24:33
They they want to be a team member, and they they want to
24:37
put somebody else there that's leading. So they're okay with this idea of you
24:44
know, the president or the CEO or whoever taking credit for because we're a
24:49
team. But a lot of people, based on their personalities, they just
24:55
they would rather work as a team. They did rather be part of the
24:57
crowd and and be a part of that function that that machine, and they
25:04
don't want to be in front. Uh. And and whether good or bad,
25:10
whatever happens, would you agree with that? Guys? What do you
25:12
what's your thoughts on that? I mean, that's how I took a lot
25:15
of number seventy. So they take credit. And the reason why they take
25:19
the credit is because they're in that position to do so. Yep. And
25:26
in the end, it is helpful to the people under if the face of
25:30
the of the enterprise is the one who's getting the credit for it, because
25:36
that keeps the whole, the whole machine moving forward, you know. And
25:41
uh, you know if I mean, who cares if the guy under you
25:47
succeeded at some project. It's they're not known, nobody knows who they are,
25:52
but it does give credit to the come to the face of the company.
25:55
To the company itself. If that if that leader is getting credit for
26:00
some great thing that Yeah, in the last thoughts gun on that law.
26:11
Yeah, I just I just wanted to go back to the ego thing that
26:15
David brought up. Uh, it's actually egotistical, the biggest ego trip if
26:22
you think that, like, to get it done right, you have to
26:26
do it yourself. Like, if that's the case, you failed as a
26:32
leader, you didn't put you didn't bring on a players, the fact that
26:36
you are the best at everything in your business. You failed your business.
26:41
And so that that's the biggest ego trip. So go go out and get
26:45
it. Always be recruiting rock stars and let them do what they do best.
26:51
Like you guys would say, absolutely, good point, good point.
26:55
All right, shall we jump to a law number eight eight? Yeah,
27:00
all right, let's do it. I love it. Make other people come
27:07
to you. And this is what was it? Use bait if necessary?
27:12
Uh, when others come to you, it applies you hold something valuable.
27:18
Drawing others towards you gives you the advantage and control over the situation. When
27:25
I first read this, when it said use bait, I was thinking,
27:30
Wow, what what is that all? About but you kind of can understand
27:33
that a little bit, uh don't you. Let's let's start with you,
27:37
Charlie. What what are your thoughts on law number eight? Actually, we
27:42
use this analogy a lot in sales and marketing is attraction marketing, right,
27:48
and and and you have to use different bait based on the different type of
27:55
person that you're trying to attract. And so if you're trying to track a
28:00
player, then then you've got to be able to understand what is their greatest
28:06
need, what is their greatest desire, and and put that out there as
28:11
what you can provide. And similarly, if you need just somebody that's you
28:17
know, doesn't have as big of a role, then you use a different
28:21
bait. And so I like that analogy. Mm hmm. That's good.
28:26
David, what's your thoughts on Yeah, I mean I definitely see this in
28:32
sales in marketing for sure, make people come to you. Uh, it's
28:37
not attractive if you're chasing people down. And again using the you know,
28:42
kind of wildlife idea that they talk about in this book about books, or
28:48
catching a catching a bear or any animal. Really it generally speaking, it's
28:56
it's less less energy. If you can set a trap and they come in
28:59
there. If you have to go hunting them and tracing them down, it's
29:02
a lot of effort. And so you know, we have to, you
29:07
know, think about this, how are we how are we showing up?
29:10
Are we showing up attractive? Are we showing up something that somebody who desires?
29:15
And I think speaking to small business owners, what I find sometimes is
29:19
people try to create something in a vacuum and then they're doing all this work
29:26
d D D da da, and they're like, oh, the marketplace isn't
29:30
really interested in this. So you're like, you spend all this time and
29:32
effort instead of being exploring and saying what's what would be attracted? What would
29:36
be the thing that would would you draw me into this? And this could
29:41
be implied to a lot of different areas. I mean, I think employ
29:45
starting a new policy, what's motivating people to come seek this out? So
29:52
I think this is a rich one, a very rich law to consider.
29:57
And yeah, I'm interested here a little bit more because as I'm looking at
30:00
this book and I'm just picking through it, I'm like, man, there's
30:03
there's a lot here. Well, yeah, very much. So, Bill,
30:07
what's your thoughts on number eight. What pops into my mind is the
30:12
question if Mohammad won't come to the mountain, Uh, you know, then
30:18
we'll bring the mountain to Muhammad. But you know, and who is the
30:23
more immovable you know? And and uh, you know, David mentioned about
30:30
about Charlie I don't remember now mentioned about chasing after and it's extremely inefficient to
30:38
to chase after people. It's a it's it's a big loss of time to
30:44
do that, you know, when there's so many more people who could do
30:48
who could do that. But if you're the immovable object the mountain, as
30:53
it were, then people have to come to you for it that you become
31:00
exclusive and uh and specialized and uh you know, if if you if you
31:08
become that, if you become you know, the specialists who nobody else can
31:15
do what you do, then people have to come to you and uh,
31:19
and that's a lot more efficient than than having to chase after people like customers
31:25
and and and and the like. So I would definitely, uh definitely say
31:32
that's the better way to go. And the bait can be a lot of
31:37
different things. It can be your your special your special uh, your specialized
31:42
knowledge, your your inf you know what you have to offer, but it
31:48
can also be uh, it can be also other things like uh, you
31:52
know, like like your fame. I mean, you may not know anything
31:56
more better than what other people know. But if you get on the right
32:01
podcast, if you get interviewed on the right talk show, you know,
32:06
then all of a sudden, you're you're well known, and that is a
32:12
bait in and of itself that people want to be attached to the famous.
32:16
It's a it's just a big thing now. Mm hmm. Well, wow,
32:22
you're you're you're going in and out of all of these laws. I'm
32:25
telling you, it's it's it's excellent because what you're really saying is going back
32:30
to law number six court attention. So if you're courting attention, and so
32:35
now you have attention, maybe you have to throw a little bit of bait
32:38
or whatever you specialize in. You're using all of these laws to actually benefit
32:45
what you want and and that's that's a good thing in my opinion. What's
32:50
your thoughts on that, David? Yeah, I know, I'm one of
32:52
the things as I was reading the in the in the book here talks about
32:57
ways of bait beating things and how you must master your emotions. And I
33:00
see that all the time. This goes back to getting attention to Actually if
33:06
people love to brow out a statement, and I actually, I mean,
33:10
actually I've seen you do this. Actually you've actually done this really well on
33:14
social media. You'll make a statement or something. And and here it talks
33:17
about controlling your emotions because if you get people to react angrily or be pushed,
33:22
oh man, I got to do something on this. So you've baited
33:23
them in, You've got you've drawn them in, right, you know,
33:28
you're you're absolutely correct, you are absolutely correct. And the purpose of that
33:32
is is for dialogue, yep. And and really not only dialogue, is
33:39
to let them actually start to think for themselves and realize their emotional and attachment
33:49
to whatever that little plug in is. It's the most fascinating thing, but
33:52
it actually it absolutely worked, and it's really to create dialogue to get people
34:00
to think for sure. Yeah, I mean, this is where I think
34:04
in marketing speak is you know you here about hooks, right, You're you're
34:08
you're leading with something like you're fishing, and so you're getting a little bit
34:12
of a hook and you're getting them to then and especially in today's world where
34:15
our tensions mats are shorter of like, hey, let me read the next
34:19
line, and let me read the next line. Let me learn a little
34:21
bit more. So we have to do masters at how to You know,
34:25
if you get a fish on a line, you pull really fast, what
34:29
happens? You can lose the fish. So there's a point of like continuing
34:32
to reel in in a good way to actually land that. So yeah,
34:40
yeah, any Charlie, any last thoughts on this law? I got the
34:47
call. I've heard one that talks about not chasing butterflies because when you chase
34:55
butterflies, they fly away. But U instead tend to your garden, which
35:01
is, you know, the personal development becoming that leader that is worth following,
35:08
and the butterflies will come to you. So yeah, that's good.
35:15
All right. Shall we jump to law number nine. Yeah, I got
35:21
a little more time left here, Yeah, a little bit more time,
35:23
so try to get to at least ten. But number nine. Win through
35:28
your actions, never through an argument. I love this I love this bill.
35:35
I know you got to leave here shortly. Why don't we start with
35:37
you? What's your thoughts on this law? Well, this one, I'm
35:43
still contemplating a little bit as far as as far as what it means for
35:47
me anyway. But but yeah, you are better off you're winning by action.
35:55
Accomplishment is it was the best way to the what's the the old saying,
36:04
uh, success is the best revenge and uh doing and it works for
36:09
for all level of winning as it were. Yeah, but but yeah,
36:20
I mean we we've talked about politics a little bit and and that seems to
36:23
be all argument, which I guess is why it's so distasteful. But yeah,
36:32
there there's there's not a lot you can do when it comes down to
36:37
it in in politics as far as as far as winning by anything but argument.
36:45
You know, I guess when you're you're I guess you when your your
36:49
election by by accomplishing things hopefully. But but getting to the accomplishment in the
36:55
first place is all about the argument. And it's interesting, Bill that you
37:02
mentioned politics. You say that you know at the dinner table, don't talk
37:06
politics or religion. It goes it goes the same with both of those.
37:12
And it's it's the idea really I think in this law, if you don't
37:15
mind me jumping in here, is that you know, winning an argument really,
37:22
So it might give you a momentary pleasure or advantage, but really,
37:29
if you want to, if you want everlasting power to the whole thing is
37:34
where they actually comes into play, because you know, winning an argument,
37:39
I always lose an argument when I talk about my wife with my wife all
37:43
the time, so I don't even find that, but the idea is still
37:46
the same, David, what's your thoughts on London night? Oh man,
37:52
this is a great one. I agree with you, Doc. You can
37:54
you can win the argument, but lose you ultimately lose. Yeah, my
38:00
wife. You know, I've learned that too many times. And you know
38:02
I hear when I read this, I hear love is an action, it's
38:07
a verb. It's much more powerful to actually have somebody feel loved than you
38:13
to tell them I love you and they don't feel it. To me,
38:16
the emotions and so I've seen where, like you said earlier, doctualy,
38:22
we're emotional beings, right, Yeah, that's just that's a fact that we're
38:25
emotional beings, and I've never seen them many one over with a logical argument.
38:32
Generally speaking, we have to speak to the emotions first and then you
38:37
can bring logic and other things underneath there, and so speaking to the emotions,
38:43
I think it is you demonstrate this, whatever that might be, and
38:46
so the more that we can demonstrate and show and then back up if you
38:52
need to with you know, statements, but if you try the other way
38:55
around. I have never seen, especially on social media, I've never seen
38:59
that many like you have this argument. You see the social media's things back
39:02
and forth and everyone saying, oh, I mean I've seen the air of
39:06
my ways. Thank you for your logical understanding. It rarely happens. Rarely.
39:12
Yes, they're arguing, argue, arguing, but they don't know this
39:15
person, They have no connection. There's no I've never seen you live this
39:20
out. How are you? What's your life like? I don't know.
39:22
You're just some person that's talking at me, and it is it is not
39:25
convincing. So yeah, yeah, that's a good point. I didn't mean
39:32
that earlier. Okay, Charlie, what what's your thoughts on this all?
39:38
Yeah? I definitely agree that human beings were creatures of emotion rather than logic
39:45
and reason. As much as we would like to think that we are,
39:50
we make every decision based on our emotions and then justify it with logic and
39:55
reason after the fact. And so that's why when you with arguments with your
40:01
words is not gonna work because that doesn't give a good feeling when you are
40:07
when you are like, actually, I'm just drawing parallels to I believe it's
40:14
Stephen Covey, Uh one of the laws, I mean seven habits of highly
40:19
affected people, or or I could be misquoting, but I remember this distinctly,
40:24
is when when or no deal. If anybody feels like they're losing out
40:29
in a conversation, then then it's it's a loss for everybody. And then
40:37
going back to talk though, like in terms of argument, we often hear
40:40
the phrase talk cheap. It's not that tough. It's cheap. People cheap
40:47
and talk by not being their word. So ultimately it's about the follow through.
40:52
And so one hundred percent agree that it's it's our action that speaks louder
40:59
than our words, and that uh, you know, we just want to
41:02
show up and and and actually demonstrate. Demonstration beats conversation. So wow,
41:10
you know what, Charlie, you said something in there right the first It
41:15
is so powerful that we are emotional and we make a decision based on our
41:21
emotion and then we then we rationalize it through reason, which is really fascinating,
41:28
and it really kind of goes back to number four. You know,
41:30
always say less than necessary because during an argument, it's just emotion and they
41:38
just we just don't rationally think. And that's why I always tell my kids.
41:45
I've told my kids and myself, and believe me, I make mistakes
41:52
all the time on this, but I always say that before you speak,
41:57
is it factual? Is it necessary? Or is it kind? Oh?
42:00
Yeah, because if it's factual, then then go ahead and you can start.
42:07
But since psychologists, since research, actually say that about eighty percent of
42:15
all dialogue between humans is all bs, it's not even factual. Well,
42:21
it's interesting that your point is exactly. We make decisions on emotion and then
42:27
we try to justify it rationally or within reason. I love that. I
42:31
just really love that. Any last thoughts stated on that, I just I
42:37
liked in the in the in the book they read, they have a statement
42:42
here one of the gentlemen that's quoted Benjamin ISABELI gentleman, and he says this,
42:49
never argue anxiety. Nothing must be discussed, only give only results.
42:53
And so I should I would say, you know, one of the codes
42:58
I live as a warrior trainers, we talk about old, raw, relevant
43:00
results. Judge me by my results, not by the words that I talk.
43:04
Everybody can talk. So I would challenge everybody if you're going to start
43:08
to chuck argue, look at the results and the fruit of your life.
43:14
That's where we should be judging and evaluating people. Yeah, that's a good
43:17
point. Good point. All right, let's let's jump to the last.
43:23
At least we get to ten in the first five in an hour, and
43:28
I guess we're on track here. Number ten. I really think number ten
43:32
is really interesting. I'd like to get your perspective. We'll start what you
43:37
did. It's long. Number ten says infection, avoid the unhappy and the
43:45
unlucky. What's your thoughts on that day? Well, that's a it's an
43:52
interesting one because you might think that's a bad thing in that Oh my goodness,
43:55
these how could you be anpapathetic to somebody? It's unhappy and like,
44:00
But that's a to me, especially unhappiness maybe unlucky. Well, is a
44:07
bit of a choice and way of being. And so what I the way
44:09
I look at this is there's somebody there's a saying that pain is inevitable,
44:16
misery is optional. In my opinion, we all will have pain. But
44:21
there's people that purposely choose misery. They purposely choose to live a life of
44:29
scarcity of you know, just as you know these people, there's drama around
44:35
every corner. And what I'm saying is they want to suck you into the
44:38
world. Misery loves company, right, because they are a victim. I'm
44:44
a victim and my victimhood is validated by somebody else coming alongside. Oh poor
44:50
you or poor you, Oh so sad, you know. And the more
44:53
that they can get people pulled into that that energy is just terrible. Just
44:57
sucks you in and paralyzes you. So we need to be that infection is
45:01
true. One bad apple ruins a bunch, right, It just contaminates,
45:06
It goes and expands. We've someone seen so many zombie movies right where that
45:09
that that spirals out. So it's like, do not get infected because it's
45:15
only going to make you and others worse. So I think this is super
45:20
important. And in what you were talking about earlier, Doxy, about what
45:24
we were talking about, our understanding, we want to justify before we started
45:28
recording our understanding and we we kind of are infected and we want to infect
45:31
have other people be infected, if you will with this lower vibration of being.
45:37
So to me, this is vital that you extract yourself as soon as
45:40
possible. What about you, You have to go off here in a minute,
45:47
Yeah, I gotta, I gotta go here in a minute. But
45:53
I think what's more important is not whether the person is in misery, because
46:01
sometimes misery isn't a choice, you know, it's whether or not those people
46:07
will get help for their misery. You know. My first thought, of
46:12
course, was to joke about it and say, well, you know,
46:15
avoid the unlucky and the unhappy and let's hear a psychologist. But but there
46:21
are I mean, I myself have struggled in my life with major depression,
46:24
but I found the help I needed and uh and I'm doing well now,
46:30
you know. And so you know, it's don't get drawn in by it,
46:37
like David said, But it's the ones who won't be helped that you
46:44
need, that you seriously need to avoid. Because the others, the others,
46:49
if they if they're like okay, I'll go and get some help.
46:51
That I need. Well, that's fine that they're they're not going to be
46:53
among the unhappy anymore. And the unlucky are just miserable about the small things,
47:00
you know, and those you those you can avoid with no trouble at
47:02
all. But but yeah, I would say if yeah, if they if
47:08
they won't get help, then avoid them. If if they will, then
47:13
uh, then they may become a resource for you in the future. Yeah.
47:19
Yeah, A good point, Jarley. What are your thoughts? Yeah,
47:23
I think that infect okay, see it, Bill, thank you.
47:29
I think this infection it goes both ways, right, whether it be unhappiness
47:34
or or joy and compassion and so the unhappiness and what was the other word
47:40
that you used, doc unhappiness and misery. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
47:47
so unlucky. Yeah, that's a that's a mindset, that's a victim mentality,
47:54
you know. So uh. There's a book by Jocko Willink I believe
48:00
he was a retired Navy seal. So it's called extreme ownership and become Ah
48:10
he well, I don't know if this is from that book, but I've
48:14
heard this quote. If you're not the problem, there is no solution.
48:16
And the reason people are are living in misery and unhappy is because they're playing
48:22
the victim and everything is everybody else. Everything that's wrong is everybody else's fault.
48:27
And if they but if you flip that on his head and say,
48:30
you know, if I am not the problem, there is no solution and
48:35
take that extreme ownership, then it's it's transformative. Then you in the happiness
48:43
and joy and whatever else that you want you want to experience is not like
48:47
somewhere out there as a byproduct of certain things that you do or have.
48:52
It's you know, that's that's what happens when we operate from from toxic shame
49:00
is we've we believe, because we believe we're flawed and defective, we start
49:05
becoming human doings rather than human beings. But any state that you want to
49:12
experience of joy or or happiness, that is a choice in every given moment.
49:16
We live as if we're gonna our life is so long and we're going
49:21
to be around for however many years that we think that we're going to be
49:24
around, But the only real life we've got is right now in this moment,
49:29
and so really, how are you choosing to be? And each given
49:32
moment, it's a funny thing. You can ask my kids every time we
49:37
go somewhere, they're like, what are we going to do there? I
49:39
said, that's not the question. The question is how are you going to
49:44
be? How are you going to be and wherever you are? So that's
49:49
that's what it comes down to. You know. My last my last thought
49:55
on this, and really the kind of be summarize what everybody's about here is
50:00
that you know, we're talking about these laws of power, and I think
50:04
if you to maintain power or shall we say influence, because that's really what
50:10
this is all about, it's important to associate with positive and successful people.
50:17
I think that that is really what what this this law really is trying to
50:24
tell us all is that we need to I mean, that's why we're all
50:29
in this positive podcast here, is because we we want to help, uh
50:34
help. We know that we're fallible human beings. We know we make mistakes,
50:37
but at the same time, we can help one another, as we
50:42
do on this podcast grow and as I think you've mentioned this before, grow
50:50
exponentially, Charlie. I mean, I think you mentioned it on one one
50:52
of the podcasts, and I think you're absolutely correct. We make we make
50:58
mistakes all the time, but at the same time, we don't get depressed
51:02
by it. Just move move on, just keep going. And that's what
51:07
I think that these laws, if you keep reading them and going through them,
51:12
I think I think that people begin to understand him more so, like
51:16
as we go through. Uh but any last thoughts David on these Yeah,
51:23
no, this is great. Thank you so much for leading us back.
51:25
Doxy on this, I thought to Charlie's point, and I think this is
51:30
a good place where this last law is interesting. Yes, we lost him.
51:42
I think I think somebody unplugged it. Put me on there twice.
51:50
So there we go. We're back. I was I was left you hanging.
51:53
No, So what was a big thing here I was saying, was
51:55
this reversal law at the end of each chapter says this, there is no
52:00
reversal of this law. It's basically saying that there's nothing to be gained in
52:05
this particular one or do it, like like uh, Bill said, at
52:09
your peril into what you're talking about, Charlie, you're teaching others about how
52:14
to be and if you're if if you ignore this law, this particular law,
52:19
it's going to be at your your your peril and disservice, So be
52:22
be wise and I appreciate the wisdom that we're seeking out here and understanding,
52:27
uh, Curtis, as you're you're guiding us through this, so uh we
52:30
will continue to definitely dive into this. Well we'll have some other uh episodes
52:37
in between and then and again as you're as you're listening to this, I
52:39
I would agree with you, doxy is that reach out to any one of
52:44
us. We're sharing our journey with you and so to help you, whether
52:46
it's murders and acquisition, whether it's the I T world, whether it's organizational
52:51
health, helping me a stronger leader yourself. Uh, We're here to help
52:54
you and we would love to hear from you. So I just want to
52:58
encourage folks to subscribe, listen to us on whatever your favorite podcast platform is.
53:04
We do this every week on LinkedIn, so you can follow find us
53:07
there and also on YouTube. So I just thank you so much for for
53:12
bringing this back through this, Doxy my pleasure. I look forward to tackling
53:17
the next laws through the last. Thank you Charlie for on the move and
53:22
everything for joining us. Appreciate it, my pleasure. Thank you guys for
53:27
hosting excellent. All right, till next time, everybody, thanks for listening.
53:30
By now a fine, have a good night.