Latest / What's Uptin? / The Fugitive CEO: Carlos Ghosn on Power, Betrayal, and the Escape that Shocked the World

Transcript

The Fugitive CEO: Carlos Ghosn on Power, Betrayal, and the Escape that Shocked the World · What's Uptin?

0:00
So it's now been six years since you escaped Japan in a box on a
0:03
private plane. In Japan there is a law that if
0:06
you are not present, you cannot be judged.
0:08
How a prominent businessman escaped from house arrest in
0:11
Tokyo. Carlos gone.
0:12
Thank you so much for sitting down with me today here in
0:14
Beirut. The legal system in Japan, which
0:19
is a scandal. But actually, Japan's legal
0:21
system is known to be one of the most respected legal systems in
0:25
the world. Respected by who?
0:27
Carlos gone, flew into Lebanon Monday.
0:30
Stuck here in Lebanon on the 60th birthday in Versailles.
0:33
You are already portraying it as in a way which is totally
0:36
inaccurate. Just I'm just curious to tell
0:38
you what I'm doing in Japan is I'm going on the offensive to
0:41
ask for my rights. This is the biggest escape since
0:44
El Chapo. Come on, this story is much
0:47
bigger than that. In this episode of What's Upton
0:50
I talk with one of the most famous CEO's.
0:52
He led Nissan and Renault. Then he gets arrested for
0:55
financial misconduct in Japan. While on house arrest.
0:58
He escaped Japan in a box on a private jet, ends up in Lebanon
1:02
where he still is today. Netflix and Apple have done
1:05
shows about this insane story. If Carlos Gon tries to leave
1:09
Lebanon, he will be arrested once again because there is no
1:12
extradition treaty. So I ask him what he wants the
1:16
world to know about his story. And if he's he's truly innocent,
1:19
why did he escape? Carlos gone.
1:25
Thank you so much for sitting down with me today here in
1:27
Beirut. You're welcome.
1:28
So it's now been six years since you escaped Japan in a box on a
1:32
private plane. What is daily life look like for
1:35
you here in Lebanon? Well, it's a completely
1:38
different life, as you can imagine.
1:42
I have many, many activities. One of them is education.
1:47
So I have a seminar in one of the university, the Uzak, where
1:53
I'm teaching people about crisis management and transformative
1:59
leadership. Obviously this is interesting
2:01
because people usually are very interested to hear about
2:06
somebody who has practiced that instead of the academical
2:11
information. So we try to do something which
2:13
is extremely pragmatical, which with a lot of people who have
2:16
been through crisis like this, through heavy transformations,
2:20
and it's working very well. So this is one part.
2:23
Second part is everything around communication, which means
2:26
obviously I have written a lot of books, I participated or
2:31
helped a lot of documentaries. There are a lot of prospects
2:35
coming for a movie and also I do a lot of conferences.
2:41
Usually all these conferences are being done or in Lebanon OR
2:44
particularly in France. The for in university are very
2:49
interested. One week ago I was with the
2:52
Harvard MENA students. Tomorrow I have a conference
2:56
with the Cambridge students. There are a lot of activities
2:59
like this where the main objective is really to try to
3:02
transfer your knowledge, transfer your experience to
3:06
younger generation or to not only to the students, but also
3:09
to the entrepreneurs and particularly the entrepreneurs
3:12
of of Lebanon. That's second part.
3:15
Now you have a third part, which are my own businesses.
3:18
I have some some economical interest in in Lebanon, a few
3:22
project and a few company where that where I am a share a
3:26
shareholder that I'm trying not to manage, but at least to
3:29
support. Then you have obviously all the
3:33
time I dedicate for my legal concerns.
3:37
Legal concerns are two of them defensive and offensive.
3:41
Obviously I'm trying to get back all my rights and there are
3:46
massive rights which have been stopped both in Japan and in
3:51
France. And I have to defend myself
3:53
against certain accusation that I have to address, particularly
3:58
in the, from the, from the government of, of France.
4:03
So these are mainly the other things, except that obviously,
4:06
you know, this is a completely different life because now I see
4:09
the people I want to see. I have my own schedule.
4:13
When you are CEO of a lot of companies, you're a little bit
4:16
slave of the job. I mean, you don't decide who
4:19
you're gonna meet. You have a lot of meetings which
4:22
are pre scheduled for one year. You have to travel all the time.
4:27
You have to bend to a lot of rules.
4:31
Well, now I'm a free man. I, you know, I dispose of my
4:33
time. I see the people I want to see.
4:35
I do whatever I, I want. And it's a completely different
4:39
life with obviously a lot of pluses but also some minuses.
4:42
So you went from having to travel all the time to not
4:45
getting to travel. Do you feel stuck here in
4:47
Lebanon? No, I don't feel.
4:49
Look, if you have to stuck somewhere, in my case it's
4:52
better to be in Lebanon because my life in Lebanon is a very
4:56
pleasant one because obviously Lebanese people have, I've
5:00
extended the great hospitality to me and they're showing a lot
5:04
of warmth and a lot of respect and a lot of recognition for
5:08
what I've done. So this is very pleasant
5:11
environment. Obviously the fact that I'm not
5:14
able, for example, to go to Brazil, where I have part of my
5:17
family, I have my mother over there, I have sisters, is
5:21
frustrating. The fact that I cannot do some
5:24
of the travels that I didn't do in the past, not a lot of them,
5:27
also is a little bit frustrating.
5:29
But I'm fighting for that and hopefully one day this will be
5:33
eliminated. You mentioned a film, you're
5:36
you're working on a film. Can you share more about that?
5:38
Is it going to be a feature film or documentary?
5:40
No, this is going to be a fiction.
5:42
You know, obviously one of the most popular genre I would say
5:48
in the movies are fictions based on real events.
5:53
OK, Personally, I'm interested in this particular movie.
5:56
I think they are much more interesting than anything which
5:58
is fantasy, science fiction, etcetera, because life, it's
6:03
more relative aspects show you aspects which are extraordinary.
6:06
So yeah, I cannot talk about it because we are still into a
6:10
negotiating period, but I on top of the three documentaries which
6:16
have been done so far, there is a need for a fiction where it
6:22
will tell the reality in a way which is probably a little bit
6:25
more attractive with a little bit more emotions than what has
6:31
been shown so far. So you're referring to the
6:34
Netflix, the Apple series. Have you seen those and do you
6:36
think? Oh sure, sure.
6:38
I mean there have been 3 documentaries, one made by NBC,
6:42
BBC, this was the first one, the last flight, the second one by
6:47
Netflix, which was done by a French team and finally Apple TV
6:53
which was done by British, by a British team.
6:57
The one that I consider the most objective for me, the first one,
7:01
NBCBBC, I've done a reasonably good job into trying to show
7:06
things the way they are. The other two fell into a little
7:10
bit of sensationalism, you know, which frankly, in this case is
7:17
not necessary. The story is sensational by
7:19
itself, so you don't have to add to it.
7:21
But the Netflix one, according to the Netflix 1 you denied, you
7:24
declined to be interviewed for a wide decline.
7:26
Well, I declined because when I, when I've been asked to
7:29
participate, I asked the team about what they were going to do
7:34
and how are I going to do it. I said, okay, you know, you say
7:37
whatever you want and you feel whatever you want, but at least
7:40
tell me so I know if I want to participate or not.
7:44
And the way they described it, I didn't like it because for me it
7:47
was too much focusing on very small stuff.
7:51
Like for example, they spent 10 minutes having an interview with
7:56
the lady who was helping me in my apartment.
7:59
I noticed that you. Know, come on, this story is
8:01
much bigger than that. You know, you're spending 10
8:04
minutes talking about that and you don't talk about the plot
8:06
and you don't talk about the collusion and you don't talk
8:08
about the legal system in Japan, which is a scandal.
8:15
I'm not, I'm not the only one talking about the if I were the
8:18
only one, people were not taking me seriously.
8:20
But when you have the United Nation already emitting opinion
8:23
saying that this arrest was arbitrary, that asking the
8:28
government of Japan to make an inquiry and compensate me for
8:32
what happened. And and this is not even
8:35
mentioned into the documentary. And you're going to spending
8:38
your time saying, OK, what did he like?
8:39
What did he eat for for breakfast?
8:42
You know how he like his shirts to be iron?
8:44
Come on, it's not serious. So from the beginning, I knew
8:47
that it was going to be some kind of little populist
8:50
distorted story. I don't want to put my hand on
8:54
it because, you know, when you are in a in a documentary,
8:58
you're adding credibility to the documentary.
9:00
So I don't want to add. You you mentioned, you know they
9:02
spent too much time on things like the the woman helping you.
9:06
They also spent a fair amount of time on the 60th birthday at in
9:09
Versailles. Do you think they portrayed that
9:12
inaccurately? Totally, totally obviously you
9:15
you are already portraying it as in a way which is totally
9:19
inaccurate the the well. I, I just I just.
9:23
Based on I'm just curious to tell you the event in Versailles
9:26
was a corporate event. It was for the 15 years
9:29
anniversary of the of the lines. OK, they have the list of the
9:35
people invited. There was no birthday cake.
9:38
There were so many people. It was in the newspaper.
9:41
We're talking about 2014, you know.
9:44
So they started to dig into it five years later after my
9:48
arrest, trying to say, well, because it's happened the day of
9:52
my birthday. And by the way, I had my
9:54
birthday by the following day, on the 10th, on the 10th.
9:56
There wasn't even a cake, right? From what I no, not even a cake.
9:59
The even the speech that I have pronounced didn't mention
10:03
anything about that or talking about the people who were
10:06
invited were all foreign people who have been helping the
10:11
alliance. But they said why they were not
10:14
executives from the alliance. But for a very simple reason, we
10:17
had another events for the 15 years anniversary taking place
10:22
in Tokyo 3 weeks later with all the executive of the alliance.
10:24
They didn't even mention that so.
10:26
So it was all twisted to try to give credit to the campaign of
10:31
character assassination that started with my arrest.
10:34
So you mentioned nowadays you're working on both defence and
10:38
offence. Can you talk a little bit about
10:39
what that those legal proceedings are looking like?
10:42
Yeah, That mean, as you know, in Japan, because this was a
10:46
criminal accusation in Japan, there is a law that if you are
10:50
not present, you cannot be judged, right?
10:52
You cannot be tried. OK, so it's over in Japan,
10:56
everything is stopped. OK?
10:58
Now what I'm doing in Japan is I'm going on the offensive to
11:02
ask for my rights retirement package, stock options which
11:06
have been blocked. And also using the United Nation
11:10
position to say, well, hey guys, there is a international entity
11:14
which can not be suspected to be biased, saying that there was
11:18
something fishy about what you've done and you have to make
11:21
an investigation and compensate this guy for this.
11:23
So I'm going to go after them on this one.
11:26
Now, the French side, which obviously has supported the
11:30
Japanese side for a very simple reason, is they didn't want the
11:33
lines to break. And the Japanese have been
11:36
extremely brutal with the French by saying, look, if you're going
11:39
to support Carlos Con, we're not going to we're not going to work
11:42
with you anymore. Which, by the way, ended up
11:44
happening because there is no more alliance except that it
11:47
took five years instead of being brutal.
11:49
OK, so so the French opened some files, some of them being
11:53
transmitted by the Japanese prosecutor to France to say
11:57
please pursue because we cannot pursue.
11:59
Plus they added the Versailles story.
12:02
They can story a lot of small things as if I was a very social
12:10
person doing parties across the globe, extremely expensive,
12:14
which frankly was not at all my style.
12:17
So as part of the character assassination that they have
12:21
really exerted in a very talented way to make sure that
12:26
they can tell the public, this guy that you have been
12:29
respecting and was a role model in Japan and in France, actually
12:34
has done a lot of things which are not legal.
12:38
And when it comes to your ability to travel and leave
12:42
Lebanon, are you hopeful that that that day is coming?
12:45
Oh, yes, I mean, I am hopeful. Obviously, I don't think the
12:49
Japanese are going to release it because in a certain way, a lot
12:54
of feedbacks I've received from Japan that they are extremely
12:57
hurt by the fact that I have scared Japan, you know?
13:01
They were humiliated. Exactly.
13:03
Well, the mediation started by what they've done to me.
13:06
So I give them a small piece, small coin of their own
13:11
currency. But, and now you have to work on
13:14
Interpol because Interpol cannot accept when things are not based
13:19
on law or based on objective arguments and based only on
13:24
revenge or political campaign or something of this kind.
13:27
So it's tough. It's gonna take a lot of time.
13:31
I have to be patient. But there is hope that one day
13:34
we will reverse it. Because they were supposed,
13:36
usually when you escape, they're supposed because of all the
13:40
international laws that agreement that they've signed,
13:43
they're supposed. If you not being extradited,
13:46
which is a case of Lebanon, Lebanon do not extradite their
13:49
citizen. By the way, it's not the only
13:50
country. France does not extradite their
13:53
citizen. Brazil do not extradite their
13:55
citizen. So my 3 citizenship do not
13:57
extradite their citizen. In this case, if you're not
14:00
extradited, if you want justice to be rendered, you have to
14:03
transfer the file to the country where you are present.
14:07
And the Japanese always refuse to do that.
14:09
They refuse to do that because I think it's not about justice,
14:13
it's about revenge and it's about continue the work of
14:17
destruction that they've been starting the day of my arrest
14:21
and you say, OK, so why destruction?
14:24
Look at what happened to Nissan. Look at what happened to Nissan,
14:26
where Nissan was in 2018, where Nissan is today.
14:30
Look what happened to the lines, it's completely destroyed.
14:33
Look what happened to Renault. Look what had happened to
14:35
Mitsubishi. When you look at the damage that
14:37
has been created, you cannot one moment think that this was done
14:41
for the benefit of the companies or for the benefit of the
14:45
community. Pure destruction on all the
14:48
fields. Obviously they made a lot of
14:50
damage to me, but also they damaged a lot themselves on top
14:54
of their reputation because you know, their story where the
14:57
prosecutor win in 99.4% of the case was something well
15:02
confidential. Well, now it's all over the
15:06
place. Everybody thinking twice before
15:07
going to Japan by saying well, you know, if if I have financial
15:11
interest in Japan and if I get go into a conflict with a
15:15
Japanese partner, there is a risk that I will never leave
15:18
Japan. How do you respond to people who
15:20
say, well, but actually Japan's legal system is known to be one
15:24
of the most, you know, respected legal systems in the world?
15:27
Respected by who? I mean, if you if you, if you,
15:30
if you look at many countries and their legal system in
15:33
general, Japan seems to have a high conviction rate but low
15:36
corruption. Look, when you comp low
15:39
corruption in Japan because it's not visible, I can tell you I've
15:41
been in Japan for 19 years. So let's not talk about low
15:45
corruption. I can tell you a lot of things
15:47
about it, political corruption and many other other corruption.
15:51
But when you say it's one of the most respected, when you look
15:55
already at the conviction rate, 99.4%.
15:58
But there are a lot of countries with high conviction rate, like
16:01
the United States. Yes, in the United States you
16:03
make deals, that's why you have a high level, OK.
16:06
In Japan there is no deal you have you have to confess.
16:09
You have to confess. That's it.
16:10
So what they're doing, thing is when they arrest you, they put
16:13
you in a place and they put so much pressure on you that after
16:16
a while you will confess anything they want just to get
16:19
out that that's the way it's happening.
16:21
When they when you were detained, you would they would
16:23
regularly come in right middle of the night and and try to get
16:26
you to speak. Well, look, not not only this,
16:29
but on top of this, they kept saying, you know what, if you
16:32
confess, everything stops. You know, obviously you're going
16:37
to be tried. It's going to be easy.
16:40
We're not going to go after your family.
16:42
We're not going to go after your wife.
16:43
We're not going to go after your friends.
16:44
I mean, this was pure blackmailing.
16:47
It was in front of me and this was taped.
16:50
So when I arrived in Lebanon and I had my famous press conference
16:54
where everybody was here, I said that and the Japanese
16:59
journalist, the media people, went to the office of the
17:01
prosecutor in Japan and said, can we see the tape that said,
17:04
no, you cannot see the tape. Very sensitive information.
17:07
We cannot show it to you. So the whole thing is a farce.
17:10
You're supposed to be taped so you can be protected, but the
17:14
the tapes are not in the hands of the judge.
17:16
They are in the hands of the prosecutor.
17:18
So the prosecutor can easily give you or not give you
17:21
whatever they want and they can censor whatever they want.
17:24
I mean, I'm not going to give you the list of all the things
17:27
I've seen during my few months in in Japan.
17:31
It was frankly disgusting. And obviously, fortunately, I
17:35
was able to get out of this, of this trap.
17:38
But I'm thinking about the 10s of thousands of people, Japanese
17:42
people who go through this system every year.
17:45
It's disheartening that you, you, you see how people are
17:48
being treated and how a lot of people have to confess things
17:51
that they're not done just to get out of this whole system,
17:55
putting them under pressure and which unique objective is for
17:59
them to confess. When you look back at this
18:02
period, any regrets? Anything you wish you did
18:04
differently? No, I mean, the only thing I
18:08
wish I would do differently, even though I'm not a man of
18:10
regret, you know, but, but is when in 2008, I, I said it many
18:14
times, when in 2008, the new elected President Obama
18:18
designated Steve Rattner as a car czar, you know, and the car
18:22
companies were collapsing with the financial meltdown.
18:27
He called me and asked me if I would become the CEO of General
18:31
Motors, and I told him unfortunately I'm not able to
18:34
leave because we are in the middle of a storm, financial
18:37
storm. Nissan was thanking.
18:39
Gruner was thanking. I was the head of the two
18:41
company. I say I'm not the kind of
18:43
captain who leaves the ship in the middle of the storm.
18:46
So in a certain way, I put the interest of my companies in
18:49
front of my own interest. And this was the biggest
18:51
mistake. So you wish you maybe would have
18:54
said yes to. That I should, I should have
18:56
look at my own interest, which was to go to General Motors
18:58
because the job was much easier than managing two companies on
19:02
different continent. That compensation was much
19:04
higher. And you know, in the United
19:06
States, nobody is going to bother you about your
19:08
compensation as long as you have results.
19:11
Unfortunately, in Japan and in France, no matter how fantastic
19:15
your results are, and my results have never been contested.
19:19
I just want to tell you, I've been reelected as CEO of Nissan
19:24
9 times, as CEO of Renault five times.
19:27
So it means that shareholders were happy and they wanted to
19:30
continue. But even with that, they were
19:33
always criticizing, you know, your high, your high
19:36
compensation, which, by the way, was not even high by any
19:39
American standard. When you, when you think about,
19:42
you know, your leadership style, a lot of times when people talk
19:45
about you as a leader, they attribute it largely to cost
19:49
cutting. He he cut, he cut costs, he cut
19:51
costs. But obviously there's way more
19:52
to it than that. What what is it?
19:54
I mean, what is it about you that that made these company
19:57
turn around so successful? Let me tell you any any turn
20:00
around situation start. With cost reduction.
20:03
Why? Because when you arrive in a
20:05
company in this array, the this array is due to the fact that
20:08
the company is spending money doing things which are not
20:11
useful. And because they are doing this,
20:15
they are not investing where it's useful.
20:17
So the first operation you do is what I call the reallocation of
20:22
the funds, which means you're going to take the money and the
20:25
resources from the places where they are not useful, For
20:27
example, plant which is not being used fully, people working
20:32
on things that are meaningless for the customers.
20:35
While from the other side, you're not investing this money
20:37
in product development, in technology development, into
20:40
geographical expansion. So when I started the Nissan
20:43
Revival plan, I just announced, you know, all the cost
20:45
reduction, but also I said part of this money is going to go to
20:49
help us become profitable, but a big part of this money will go
20:52
on product development in in technology development and into
20:56
geographical expansion. And that's why under my
21:00
leadership in between 1999 and 2018, Nissan practically doubled
21:07
its size no matter what more than double the size and more
21:13
than quadruple its its financial results.
21:17
The depth which was $20 billion at the moment where I arrived,
21:20
became $20 billion cash in 2018. So all of these nobody can
21:25
contest because these are numbers on audited things, but.
21:29
Still, just to just to mention, closing a plant in Japan at the
21:33
time was like unheard of, right? Culturally and everything
21:35
exactly. Well, you, you, you you could
21:37
not get, you know you cannot get away with with this.
21:41
The only reasons for which I was able to do things that were
21:44
considered revolutionary in Japan, it's because I put my
21:48
neck on the table. I just said if the first year I
21:50
bring I don't bring back the company to profit, I'm out and
21:53
with me all the members of the executive committee.
21:55
But I didn't take this commitment for one year.
21:58
I think, I think I took this commitment for three years.
22:00
First year we need to make be back to profit.
22:03
Second year we're going to have the depth.
22:05
Third year our operating it should be at a certain at a
22:09
certain level. Any one of these objective is
22:11
not bad and I'm out. So all the people who are
22:14
against you say, OK, this guy is baloney is not going to do it.
22:18
We're going to wait after this is going to be gone and all the
22:21
people who are with you wanted you to be successful.
22:24
And as you know, first year we met the objective, second year
22:27
we met the objective. And after the third year, people
22:30
have to admit that something significant had to be done.
22:34
And I became a role model for a whole generation of
22:39
entrepreneurs in Japan. Let's kind of look ahead right
22:44
now. We're seeing EVs, Chinese EVs,
22:47
you know, $10,000 go throughout Brazil.
22:49
I've even seen a not BD, excuse me, BYDBYD, you know, has a
22:54
store in Lebanon. I saw a Xiaomi car in Lebanon.
22:57
Did you anticipate this? I mean, if you look back 5-10
23:00
years ago, did you anticipate Chinese cars, especially EVs,
23:03
competing at this kind of scale globally?
23:05
Yeah, there was no doubt that Chinese were going to play an
23:10
important role into the car industry.
23:12
This was visible in 2000 from 2020, my first trip to China in
23:18
2021 or 2022 when I went to establish a joint venture
23:23
between Nissan and the Chinese company which is called Dongfong
23:27
to establish Nissan. In China you said 2022.
23:30
No, no, sorry, 2000. Two.
23:32
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was going to.
23:33
Say 2002. So it was visible that the the
23:38
the government, the government wanted to develop the car
23:42
industry. And how did you see it?
23:43
There were more roads than cars. There were more highways with no
23:47
cars in it. OK, so so I was I was shocked.
23:50
Usually you have the the reverse, you have many cars and
23:53
not not enough infrastructure, Right.
23:55
And then I understood little by little how serious they were
23:58
about building their own industry.
24:00
OK, At that moment, probably the internal market of China was
24:04
3,000,000 cars sold per year inside China.
24:08
You know that today there are 27,000,000.
24:10
Wow. OK, 20 years later, 27,000,000
24:13
and they became the largest market for cars in the world,
24:17
where at that moment it was the US and then you had Europe and
24:21
then you have all the other countries.
24:24
But this determination from the beginning to say I'm gonna align
24:27
infrastructure, finance, Chinese entrepreneurship to build an
24:32
industry in order to develop my internal market and compete was
24:36
obvious. Okay, so but they came to the
24:39
conclusion when we launched electric car, we were the first
24:42
one to launch a mass marketed electric car.
24:44
It was relief from Nissan in 2010, 2011, Tesla followed later
24:51
with Elon Musk and then Renault came with the Zoe.
24:54
Then the Chinese understood that because of the hesitation that
24:58
existed in many countries about the electric cars, they said,
25:02
well, we're not going to be able to compete against them on
25:05
internal combustion engine. These guys have 100 years in
25:08
advance on us. OK, so how about we go to
25:11
electric car because they seem very skeptical about it.
25:14
And why they went to electric car first because it was a new
25:16
technology so they could compete on equal standing, but also
25:20
because the reasons for which electric car developed were
25:24
objective reasons. For example, the first one was.
25:29
Pollution, especially in Beijing, Shanghai, yeah.
25:32
Pollution, they had the problem of pollution Second, too much
25:35
dependency on oil. China has no oil importing all
25:38
the OK. So all these objective reason
25:42
added to the fact that they wanted to compete and it looked
25:45
like the Japanese and the Korean and European and the American
25:48
did not pay too much attention to the electric car except
25:51
Tesla, except Tesla said, OK, let's go ahead and build a
25:56
really leadership on electric car.
25:58
It took them many years. What make them successful is not
26:02
only their determination, but the weak determination of the
26:06
competition in front of them. Because while they were
26:10
determined and perseverant into building the infrastructure
26:14
supporting the electric car, putting the regulation in China
26:17
to encourage consumer to buy electric cars, you had stop and
26:22
go in Europe. OK, today we give.
26:24
A subsidy. And the and you have a new
26:27
government coming. No, no, no subsidy.
26:28
We're going to divide the subsidy by two.
26:30
We're going to multiply it. We're going to invest in
26:32
infrastructure. We're not going to invest.
26:33
So this stop and go gave a Blvd. to the Chinese to build their
26:39
dominance today in electric car. You've seen lately that BYD
26:44
became the largest producer and seller of electric car in the
26:48
world. Passing Tesla, passing Tesla and
26:51
even Tesla. Elon Musk have said that Tesla's
26:57
goal or future is not only in cars, right?
26:59
It's robotics, humanoids. OK.
27:01
So, so you have from one side somebody doing a lot of things,
27:05
from the other side somebody focused on one particular
27:08
product. It doesn't take too, too much to
27:11
imagine who's going to prevail in the in the long term.
27:15
I just want to remind you that DYD started building cars in
27:19
2008, 2009, before they were battery makers.
27:23
So in in less than 20 years, these guys have established a
27:27
kind of dominance into the electric car with other Chinese
27:33
car manufacturers, while while they have no history, they just
27:37
built it from scratch. It's kind of like this idea of
27:39
leapfrogging, right? We saw that with mobile phones
27:41
as well. Xiaomi, Huawei, even Chinese,
27:44
they didn't have laptops, many of them.
27:46
They just went from no gadgets to to phones.
27:49
And it seems like they did that with with EVs.
27:52
So did do you think Trump did the right thing by introducing
27:56
high tariffs during his first term?
27:57
They would ultimately make EVs not able to be sold in the US.
28:02
Tariffs are temporary protection temporary.
28:08
You cannot preserve on the long term from competition with
28:15
tariff. But tariff in many, many
28:16
countries have been used not only to re establish a balance.
28:23
If my product is being taxed 10% when it's exported and I'm not
28:27
taking a tariff, I'm going to put the tariff at 10% to just
28:31
play on the same field. I'm not talking about that.
28:35
I'm talking about building a tariff to make the import of
28:40
some products a little bit more expensive and a little bit more
28:43
difficult. This works but for a for short
28:47
period of time. So what is the advantage of
28:48
that? It gives time for your own
28:51
companies to react. OK.
28:54
So if tariffs are being built to allow regain of competition,
28:59
then it's fine if tariff has will be to protect indefinitely
29:04
from competition. It's a mistake, but can.
29:06
I mean right now the average cost of a car in the US is
29:08
$50,000. BYD you can get one eight to
29:11
$10,000. I mean can.
29:12
Is it even possible for AUS car company to compete with that?
29:16
Well, you know, with the Chinese, you have to compete
29:19
like Chinese. You know, that mean all these
29:22
companies, General Motors, Ford, Nissan, Renault, Volkswagen,
29:26
everybody. We were in China, we had all the
29:28
joint venture in China. We've seen how the Chinese work.
29:31
So we learned a lot of things. What do you mean by that?
29:35
That we've seen how they work? Just drive down costs.
29:37
No, Yeah. How to drive down costs, how to
29:39
go for a supplier which can give you the same quality as a much
29:42
lower price. And you know that the Chinese
29:44
are not building everything in China.
29:46
Some of the work is being outsourced to Vietnam or
29:49
outsourced to Cambodia, outsourced to the other country,
29:51
which are becoming cheaper, right, Cheaper than China.
29:54
So when you are in a battle like this, you can't just escape the
29:58
battle by saying it's too tough for me, I'm going to leave.
30:01
No, because if you leave, you know what's going to happen.
30:05
If the people you're competing against are going to follow you,
30:07
they're going to follow you on your own market.
30:10
Because one day or the other, as you know, the American consumer,
30:13
if he has in front of him a car at 50,000 and an equivalent car
30:17
which is 30 percent, 40% cheaper is going to say, hey, wait a
30:22
minute, why do I have to pay a premium when I can get a product
30:26
much cheaper in in better condition.
30:29
So again, tariffs is to protect you, to allow you to regain
30:35
forces, regain competitiveness and compete.
30:40
It's very good. Many countries have done it
30:42
before, but don't think 11 moment that is going to be a
30:47
perennial protection. And near shoring, it seems
30:50
China's trying to do near shoring where they, you know, do
30:52
the last bit of assembly or something in Mexico and then all
30:55
of a sudden they can, you know, find ways to get.
30:57
It smart people. So do you.
30:58
Do you think we'll see BYD and other car makers in the US?
31:02
Well, I don't know if they're going to go to the US, but I can
31:05
tell you that mean the Chinese are already making agreement
31:07
with car manufacturer established in Mexico joint
31:11
venture to be able to use their plant.
31:14
Yeah, obviously the Mexican market is an interesting one,
31:17
but obviously they are eyeing the US today that the
31:20
administration change and then the rules change.
31:23
I was discussing during a conference with a dealer, a car
31:27
dealer in Mexico, He told me that the Chinese car maker who
31:32
represented 0% of the market five years ago, they are at 25%
31:37
today, 25% in five years, OK, So that's the reality that you have
31:42
to face. Obviously, you can say no more
31:44
Chinese cars, fine. OK, How long?
31:49
Just. One year, 2 year, three years.
31:51
On top of this, when you're forbidding a market like the US
31:55
to Chinese cars, you're allowing them to become stronger in other
31:59
markets. They're going to Africa, they're
32:01
going to the Middle East. Look at what's happening in the
32:04
Middle Eastern market. The Chinese were absent five
32:06
years ago. Now they are really taking the
32:10
position of the Koreans and they're taking the position of
32:13
the of the Japanese based on good design, good quality, good
32:18
price, and the great guarantee. They are offering, you know,
32:22
eight years warranty on the car, 10 years warranty on the car.
32:24
So people are overwhelmed. Even two years ago in Dubai, you
32:28
didn't see a Chinese EVs. Now, you know, just driving down
32:31
the highway, you see showrooms for BYD, Zeker Neo, you order an
32:35
Uber at BYD comes. I mean, yeah, there's, there's
32:38
plenty of markets for for a lot of these these companies.
32:42
If you is there something you think that Ford and GM got wrong
32:46
in the past five years? Look, I cannot tell you because
32:48
I didn't manage this company. I can tell you what Renault and
32:51
Nissan got the wrong, OK, Tell me that for the last six years,
32:54
first, they did not pursue the efforts that we started to
32:59
impose leadership on electric car.
33:01
They didn't do it. Leadership is tough.
33:05
You can be a leader and you know, somebody with political
33:09
agenda, I'm going to do a little bit of this and a little bit of
33:11
that and you are right here and you are right there.
33:13
It doesn't work. Leadership means you're going to
33:15
take a very clear position. You're going to be blamed for it
33:17
if it fails, but if you are persistent enough, you can be
33:21
successful. You know, we had this for many
33:24
years and you know, the Leaf has been the most sold electric car
33:27
for many years up to the year 2015, 2016.
33:31
And then when I left the CEO job of Nissan to take care of
33:36
Mitsubishi because we joined, we had Mitsubishi joining the
33:39
alliance because Mitsubishi was in a very bad shape.
33:42
Top management started to soften a little bit.
33:46
We're going to do some electric cars and we're going to do this
33:48
and do that. It doesn't work like this.
33:50
You're going to lose your leadership and I lost the
33:52
leadership then when I was toppled while they put it in the
33:57
drawer. That means nothing innovative
33:59
come no investment else. For sure.
34:01
I mean, Renault was in China and they considered that competition
34:06
in China was very tough. They left China.
34:09
I mean, how do you leave China? China is the number one car
34:12
market in the world. You can't leave China.
34:15
Leaving China means you accept to disappear as a car maker.
34:19
And that's what's happening and I'm gonna tell you how it's
34:21
happening now. Renault has made the agreement
34:24
to do with GD, one of the Chinese car maker what Jin is
34:27
doing. They said, OK, we want the
34:29
participation, we're going to create a joint venture to build
34:33
engines together. OK, that's number one.
34:36
Then they said let's take a participation in your plant in
34:39
Brazil. It was not.
34:41
Then they said let's take a participation in your plant in
34:43
Korea. So this is a strategy of little
34:47
by little I'm going to take over the place.
34:51
I can tell you from now, one of these days Renault will become a
34:54
brand of GD if this continues. That's the way the Chinese
34:58
operate. Why?
34:58
Because there are people with very long term plans, extremely
35:03
persistent in their objectives, very easy to detect the weakness
35:07
of the competition, work on it without being in a hurry.
35:10
Would you also say it's the government and the private and
35:12
public sector working together more hand in hand than you're
35:15
out for? Sure, that's for sure.
35:17
I mean the, the, the, the, the Chinese government want their
35:21
enterprise to be successful. So they're providing them
35:23
everything they need and they make all the efforts for them to
35:26
be successful. While in other countries it's
35:31
not the case. In France, for example, the
35:34
government obsession is to control the companies, but
35:38
usually the people who are elected.
35:41
But they have a lot of skills because they've been elected,
35:43
but not particularly to manage or to direct industries which
35:48
are at the top level of competition.
35:50
The result of this France has no more there is a practically no
35:54
sector in which the French government has been a
35:58
shareholder which is prevailing today.
36:01
Not not they destroyed everything and they destroyed
36:03
everything because of the fact that when they become a small
36:09
shareholder in a company, they think they own the place.
36:12
And So what happened with the CEO?
36:14
The CEO obviously usually is afraid of government.
36:18
I mean, the government tell him something that try to persuade
36:21
him it's not true. But if he insists they banned,
36:26
OK, so at the end of the day, you bend, you make mistakes, but
36:30
you're responsible of this mistake because the government
36:32
is not because you are in charge.
36:35
So it's very vicious what's taking place.
36:37
And unfortunately France, which has a lot of industrial talent
36:41
and had a lot of sectors which were at the forefront of
36:45
development in the world, has none of it.
36:48
Today the only sector is luxury sector, you know the, the Vivito
36:54
and etcetera. But, but, but, but where are the
36:57
cars, where are the airplanes, where are, where is the nuclear
37:01
industry, where are the railways?
37:04
Where are all these sector where France was really one of the
37:07
leaders in the world? Do you think that self driving
37:10
cars are going to kind of change the game here?
37:12
I've covered Zoox, which is Amazon.
37:15
I've covered Waymo, owned by Google.
37:17
I mean, they're expanding at these rapid rates right now in
37:20
U.S. cities. Is that something you think you
37:23
know will change the game for a lot of these companies?
37:25
Yes, yes, I think it's going to take some time because you have
37:27
a lot of safety issues around them.
37:31
They're being sold. But I think the what we call the
37:33
robo taxi or the autonomous Dr. are going to be a big factor
37:38
into this, into this industry for a lot of reason.
37:41
But one of the major reason is safety.
37:44
You know that. Lower rates of accidents
37:46
actually in self driving cars at human drivers.
37:48
Exactly. But no, because when you analyze
37:50
why you have accidents on the road, you analyze them
37:53
statistically. You know, you have 1.3 or 1.5
37:56
million people dying every year on the globe from from accident
38:02
and you analyze them, you know 90% of them are due to human
38:06
mistake, 90%. But obviously, robotaxi, there
38:09
is no human mistake because they're computers and they.
38:13
Can actually react faster than a human.
38:14
And all that, but even you can have some glitches from time to
38:17
time, yes, but the technology are going to be sold them.
38:20
But you're going to be able to eliminate hundreds of thousands
38:23
of lives every year. This is one reason, but you have
38:26
so many, so many other reasons. Let me give you another reason.
38:30
Take the truck industry. You know that the truck industry
38:33
in the United States is the first employer of mail in the
38:38
US. 3 million or 4 million people drive trucks in the
38:40
United States. The number one employer and one
38:43
of the problems we had when I was leading Nissan is the fact
38:47
that we we didn't have from time to time trucks, not because of
38:50
lack of trucks, not lack of drivers used to have bring
38:53
Mexican etcetera. OK, So Robotaxi is going to be
38:56
able to solve not only the shortage, but also make it
38:59
safer, more predictable, and also when it comes to aligning
39:04
this with GPS, taking the best route, knowing when to stop,
39:09
this is going to revolutionize the logistics.
39:11
But does car owners then become less of a thing?
39:15
I mean, if you if you don't need to own your own car and you can
39:18
just order all the time and it's the price is quite cheap.
39:20
No, you can have both. I think look, look today what's
39:22
happening in the United States, you can lease a car.
39:26
I mean, the majority of cars are leased, right?
39:29
In other countries, they are still owned even though the
39:32
reasoning exists. You have a cultural relationship
39:36
country by country between you and the car.
39:40
And, and I, I don't think the evolution of technology is going
39:44
to change this relationship. It may modify it a little bit.
39:47
People like to own their car because cars in lot of country,
39:50
particularly developing country are part of the family.
39:53
OK, in in more developed country, people have many, many
39:57
cars. They lease them, they, they,
39:58
they change. So the relationship can change.
40:01
Technology is not going to change the relationship.
40:04
Culture is going to stay there, but technology is going to make
40:07
the use of your car completely different.
40:10
The car is becoming a partner versus being an object that you
40:14
manipulate at your will. I was saying it's partner and
40:17
it's going to give you information, is going to drive
40:20
for you whenever you want. It's going to alert you when
40:23
there is a danger from time to time if you're not paying
40:25
attention, it's going to stop the car in front of you.
40:27
It's going to park the car if you don't like.
40:29
So it becomes like a partner on top of the connectivity into the
40:33
car connectivity that you can have video conferences, you can
40:36
have a lot of think and see movies, you can see a lot of
40:38
things. There's even a prediction that
40:40
your car will drop you off at the office and you go to work
40:43
and your car goes and does some ride sharing makes makes your
40:46
car makes money for you on the site.
40:47
Everything is possible, but still on the paper, technology
40:52
is still not ready because you're going to need to be
40:56
extremely safe when you're talking about these
40:59
functionality. And I think it's going to take a
41:02
little bit of time. I want to wrap up on your
41:05
reputation and your legacy. What do you think your you know?
41:09
What do you hope your ultimate legacy will be?
41:12
Well, look, there are a lot of things that people cannot take
41:14
from me. I mean, I was number one.
41:18
I was the only foreigner who went to Japan.
41:22
Take the leadership of a major Japanese corporation, turn it
41:27
around and not turn it around on 2-3 years, but on 19 years,
41:31
that's number one. You cannot take it from you.
41:33
The second one, I was the first one to manage many companies on
41:37
different continents successfully, 1 based in France
41:41
and two of them based in Japan. And what you probably don't
41:47
know, but even though I said it, I was at the end of my tenure.
41:52
I was preparing Fiat Chrysler to join the alliance.
41:56
We had talks with John Elkan and we were going to sign a memory
42:00
of understanding in January 2019.
42:05
And I was arrested in November 2018.
42:09
OK. If not we would have been, we
42:11
would have been by far the largest, by far the largest
42:15
automotive group in the world multi presence in on all the the
42:20
continents. So this aspect of a person was
42:24
able to deal with different culture, manage them
42:27
successfully, avoiding conflicts.
42:29
There was never a conflict during my tenure between
42:32
Renault, Nissan, Mitsubishi etcetera was something you
42:35
cannot take away from me. OK, now after this you have the
42:38
character assassination. This guy have done a lot of
42:41
things which are illegal etcetera.
42:43
But this will be one day, hopefully at the court, will be
42:45
sold at the court because if not, it's he says and and he
42:49
said, but in a certain way, if I would have retired as the CEO of
42:57
three companies, maybe more than that.
43:00
OK, if you say, well, it was a great CEO, He's done a lot of
43:02
things, That's fine. But the escape from Japan
43:06
created a new dimension, OK, a new dimension to say, OK, that
43:11
mean he was able to manage situations which are totally
43:19
normed and prepared. But the escape from Japan still
43:24
is something which is add to your reputation or subtract you
43:29
from your reputation. For the people who have some
43:32
creativity, they said, wow, this was an extraordinary fact.
43:35
And for other people said if he was innocent, he would have
43:39
stayed in Japan. But these are the people who
43:42
don't know the Japanese system and and frankly, I don't wish to
43:45
anybody to any day having to experiment the system.
43:50
When you think about, you know. On that note, what do you feel
43:54
is still misunderstood? What part of your story is the
43:56
most misunderstood? What what look what what what
44:00
happened is a preparation of a plot of character assassination.
44:04
I don't know a lot of theory on character assassination.
44:07
You have a lot of professors in different university who made
44:10
studies on this and they said Carlos gone Character
44:14
assassination was a textbook about what you do and this has
44:18
been prepared many months before it happened and I followed it by
44:22
the book. OK.
44:23
That means taking a quality that everybody recognized in you and
44:28
transform it into a weakness. Give you an example.
44:31
When I arrived in Japan, one of the reason that Nissan was
44:35
totally in decline is nobody wanted to take a decision,
44:38
particularly the decisions which were like closing a plant or
44:43
eliminating headcount or shifting resources from 1
44:48
technology to another technology.
44:50
Japanese were absolutely paralyzed in front of this kind
44:53
of decision. When I came and I started to
44:55
make decision one after the others, people were very happy
44:58
because finally the company was getting out OK.
45:01
So I was known as a decisive leader, OK, which was equality
45:07
at that time. They turned it into he's a
45:09
brute, you know, he doesn't listen to anybody.
45:12
He thinks he's better than anybody else.
45:13
Absolutely not. It's not because you are
45:16
decisive and you are decisive successfully and because you're
45:21
successful when you're listening to people before you're making
45:23
your decision. But you don't stop at listening
45:25
people. You make the decision, but you
45:27
don't make the decision before listening to people.
45:29
Because if you make the decision before listening to people, one
45:32
day or the other, you're gonna fall.
45:33
And this didn't happen for 19 years, which means listening to
45:38
people, their argument. At the end of the day, being
45:41
able to make a decision was extremely important.
45:44
They turn it into it's brutal is a dictator and listen to
45:48
anybody. This is the way you transform.
45:50
That's what we call the character assassination.
45:52
You take the quality recognize of a person you know, and then
45:56
you turn them. You flip them towards, OK, let's
45:59
see the bad side of it, not absolutely ignoring the fact
46:04
that these quality were at the basis of the revival of your
46:09
company. Do you still think you can be an
46:11
effective leader though and manage multiple companies,
46:14
especially in in two different continents, I mean.
46:17
I have the know how for this, I have the culture for this, I
46:20
have the passion for this, but I will not do it today.
46:23
That's all that. Do you think anyone can do it
46:24
today? No, no, I don't think so.
46:26
I I think you need, you need the preparation.
46:28
This is a very long preparation. I'm 71 year old.
46:32
That mean I'm it's over. That mean we have to leave it
46:36
for younger people to do that because a kind of job that I've
46:40
done required a lot of energy, required a lot of focus,
46:43
required a lot of engagement. You have plenty of it when
46:46
you're 40, when you're 50, even when you're 60, when you start
46:50
to approach 70 or 80, maybe this engine start to a little bit be
46:56
weaker, be be be weaker, but you have the experience.
47:00
So if if your name was cleared tomorrow and you get a call by
47:03
one of the largest automakers in the world saying, hey, we need
47:06
you to turn us around, would you say yes?
47:08
No. You'd leave it for for.
47:11
Leave it for somebody else. And what what is the biggest
47:15
problem you see with the future generation and and leading
47:18
companies? I don't see problem today or or.
47:22
I see, I see. I see from from all the
47:26
conferences I do and from all the talks I have in the
47:29
university people eager to understand.
47:32
You're hopeful, you're inspired by them.
47:34
I'm inspired by them that they ask the same question the the
47:36
the right questions. They have no paradigms they have
47:40
that mean people are curious about what happened.
47:42
And what's interesting is they have a tendency to go more for
47:47
experience than for theory. OK.
47:51
They want to know about a turn around, not by reading a good
47:53
book on turn around, but by goal and interviewing people who have
47:57
been through turn around and each one sharing their
48:00
experience with them. Last year, you decided to come
48:03
out and be more of a public figure.
48:05
You're posting on LinkedIn. You have a newsletter.
48:08
Why? Why do this?
48:09
Well, I think, I think everybody who has a life which has been as
48:15
rich as mine in term of corporate leadership should not
48:19
keep his knowledge for himself. I think it's our duty to give
48:23
back. Give back not by lecturing
48:26
people, but by sharing your own experience.
48:28
So I did a lot at the university where I'm teaching, but also at
48:33
different conferences in Lebanon.
48:35
But I've been asked by many entities in France, even in the
48:38
United States or in the UK, to share this experience.
48:44
So I said, well, the best way would be to use the social
48:46
media, because in the social media you can talk to everybody
48:49
who wants to listen. And I'm blessed by the fact that
48:53
a lot of people are listening. So final question, if you were
48:57
allowed to travel anywhere in the world tomorrow, where do you
48:59
go and why? Brazil and why?
49:03
Why my mother there? I didn't see her for a while.
49:06
Carlos, thank you so much for your time.
49:07
It's very insightful. Appreciate it.
49:09
Thanks for listening to this episode of What's Upton?
49:11
Where I bring you inside the mines driving tech, money and
49:14
power. Follow along on YouTube,
49:16
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49:19
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49:23
Would love to connect with you.