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HL Hunley: The Mysterious Demise of a Civil War Submarine, with Rachel Lance · Ridiculous History

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Speaker 1: call it? I just spitballing here. Well, without revealing too much.
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Speaker 1: at home, for you audiophiles, Um, my voice sounds a
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Speaker 1: lot smoother this episode because I have an actual mic. Now, well, Casey,
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Speaker 1: more pristine today, So kudos for that. And it's so fascinating, Like,
1:41
Speaker 1: that's such a great way to get in today's episode
1:44
Speaker 1: because we are talking about technology, and we know, we
1:49
Speaker 1: know that the pace of human evolution has been defined
1:56
Speaker 1: many different ways, but one thing that human he is
2:00
Speaker 1: always excelled at is the creation of technology. Where the
2:04
Speaker 1: species that's eternally at the drawing board. Uh. We we
2:09
Speaker 1: get a lot of stuff wrong, but we make a
2:12
Speaker 1: lot of brave decisions, pioneering decisions. And you see, one
2:17
Speaker 1: of the things that always fascinates me about technology I
2:19
Speaker 1: don't know about you guys, is how much it empowers
2:22
Speaker 1: us to go to places where humans physically wouldn't be
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Speaker 1: able to go on their own, you know, like the
2:28
Speaker 1: wild reaches of the Arctic or the depths of the ocean. Uh.
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Speaker 1: Today we're talking about submarines. Today, we're diving into a mystery. Today,
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Speaker 1: we're diving into a very strange story from the Civil War.
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Speaker 1: But we're not doing it alone, are we know? We
2:45
Speaker 1: sure aren't. Today we are joined by Dr Rachel Lance,
2:49
Speaker 1: the author of In the Waves, the Story of the S. S.
2:53
Speaker 1: Hunley Um, a Civil war who knew submarine. Thank you
2:58
Speaker 1: so much for being with us today. I'm happy to
3:00
Speaker 1: be your underwater tour guide. So no, I'm We're thrilled
3:06
Speaker 1: to have you. And I'm not kidding. Maybe maybe this
3:09
Speaker 1: is me showing my my ignorance, but I had no
3:11
Speaker 1: idea that submarines were a thing during the Civil War,
3:14
Speaker 1: and in doing a little research and reading your materials,
3:16
Speaker 1: I realized it wasn't fully a thing. It was sort
3:19
Speaker 1: of an experimental thing, very rudimentary version of what we
3:22
Speaker 1: would now consider a submarine. Yeah, you're not the first
3:26
Speaker 1: one to say that, so you are not alone. Um,
3:29
Speaker 1: don't feel bad, but you are also correct in that
3:32
Speaker 1: it's kind of like the garage band version of submarines. Uh.
3:36
Speaker 1: The Hunley itself, which, by the way, I don't want
3:39
Speaker 1: to start out well actually you or anything, But it
3:42
Speaker 1: was not an ss uscl UM. It was just the
3:45
Speaker 1: plane H L Hunley. It was not officially officially designated UM.
3:51
Speaker 1: But yeah, the HL Hunley was built out of repurposed materials.
3:55
Speaker 1: So this was a recycled submarine and they hammered it
3:58
Speaker 1: out of the recycle old boiler of esteemship. Fascinating. So
4:03
Speaker 1: now for for a quick level set for a lot
4:06
Speaker 1: of a lot of our fellow listeners today. Uh, Let's
4:10
Speaker 1: say most people who think of a submarine, they will
4:14
Speaker 1: tend to think of these gargange in underwater predators, right,
4:21
Speaker 1: often nuclear powered or diesel powered or something like that.
4:25
Speaker 1: Could you could you tell us a little bit, Rachel
4:29
Speaker 1: about how the Hunley came about? Uh? And what makes
4:34
Speaker 1: it so markedly different? Dare I say a little bit
4:38
Speaker 1: more low tech than some of the nuclear subs we
4:41
Speaker 1: see in things like hunt for Red October? It was
4:45
Speaker 1: I think lower tech is a very kind way to
4:47
Speaker 1: put it, the Hunty. The Huntley was manpowered, so it
4:52
Speaker 1: was about forty ft long, and inside there were eight
4:55
Speaker 1: people and there was the pilot who was an officer,
4:58
Speaker 1: so he didn't really have to do you that much.
5:01
Speaker 1: But then the other seven members of the crew were
5:04
Speaker 1: all stationed at a hand crank, so this thing looked
5:06
Speaker 1: kind of like the crank shaft of a car. Each
5:09
Speaker 1: of these handles were a little offset and together they
5:12
Speaker 1: would just keep turning it continuously and that was connected
5:15
Speaker 1: via some gears to the outside propeller, and that was
5:18
Speaker 1: how this submarine moved. It was human powered submarine. So
5:21
Speaker 1: it was essentially like a flint stone car submarine. Like
5:24
Speaker 1: it's these guys are actually turning cranks to make the
5:28
Speaker 1: thing go. Yeah, I think that that's actually a pretty
5:30
Speaker 1: good description. That's I've never heard that one before, but
5:33
Speaker 1: I might use it from now on. And just for
5:35
Speaker 1: the record, just in my own defense, I kind of
5:37
Speaker 1: transposed the h L, which is a person's name, um,
5:41
Speaker 1: the person that was named after, with the SS in
5:43
Speaker 1: my mind, So please forgive my my mistake there. But UM,
5:47
Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about the man the Huntley
5:49
Speaker 1: was named after, and and um maybe some of the
5:52
Speaker 1: history of some of the tests and trials that led
5:55
Speaker 1: to the story that we're exploring today, one of which
5:58
Speaker 1: involved the man himself. Well, Horace Hunley was actually a lawyer,
6:02
Speaker 1: which is not really the type of profession that you
6:05
Speaker 1: would think naturally leads to building homemade submarines. But he
6:09
Speaker 1: was down in Louisiana and he had his law degree,
6:12
Speaker 1: and at one point he was working as a customs agent.
6:15
Speaker 1: But this guy basically always had your next big idea
6:19
Speaker 1: to get rich, and he was lucky to have an
6:23
Speaker 1: extremely wealthy brother in law that funded a lot of
6:26
Speaker 1: these ideas. So when when the war broke out, when
6:30
Speaker 1: the South declared that they were going to succeed, they
6:33
Speaker 1: didn't really have much of a navy to speak of.
6:37
Speaker 1: And historians will disagree on the number of ships that
6:40
Speaker 1: they had, but it's between zero and ten. So with
6:45
Speaker 1: zero is your lower limit. That shows you that you
6:47
Speaker 1: kind of need more ships. So Horace Hunley saw this
6:51
Speaker 1: as another money making opportunity and he wanted to become
6:56
Speaker 1: what's called a private here, so he started building submarine
7:00
Speaker 1: with two other men, Baxtor Watson and James McClintock. And
7:03
Speaker 1: those two were real engineers. Like these guys worked out
7:06
Speaker 1: of a machine shop and they worked frequently at a foundry,
7:09
Speaker 1: and they knew how to put together an actual product.
7:12
Speaker 1: And together the three of them raised all these funds
7:15
Speaker 1: and started building prototypes. The first one they need was
7:19
Speaker 1: the CSS Pioneer, and that one actually was like officially
7:22
Speaker 1: made a Confederate ship and everything, so now you can
7:25
Speaker 1: call it whatever you please. But that one, as the
7:31
Speaker 1: Union kind of closed in and New Orleans, they ended
7:35
Speaker 1: up having to sink it intentionally. They didn't want it
7:37
Speaker 1: to fall into Union hands, and so they sunk it
7:41
Speaker 1: in Lake Pontra train Um, which is right next to
7:44
Speaker 1: New Orleans, Louisiana. After that, everyone kind of packed up
7:47
Speaker 1: and fled. They went to Mobile, Alabama, which was still
7:51
Speaker 1: sitting under Confederate control, and they started building again. So
7:54
Speaker 1: they built a second submarine, the American Diver, and they
7:57
Speaker 1: kind of learned from their mistakes there, but that one
8:00
Speaker 1: sank in an unfortunate accident, and according to the records,
8:03
Speaker 1: everyone got out safely. It's a little bit unclear, there's
8:06
Speaker 1: not a huge amount of detail, but either way, that
8:09
Speaker 1: submarine was now in the bottom of Mobile Bay under
8:13
Speaker 1: some mud. It was no longer going to help with
8:17
Speaker 1: the war effort. After that, they started building on what
8:20
Speaker 1: is thought to be their third submarine. That one would
8:22
Speaker 1: eventually become the hil Henley. At the time, they called
8:25
Speaker 1: it just simply fish boat now, which I love that name.
8:29
Speaker 1: I think that's are also. I think maybe the porpoise
8:32
Speaker 1: was a thing as well, or the fish torpedo boat.
8:36
Speaker 1: I'm just you know, a quick glance of Wikipedia has
8:38
Speaker 1: those as a list on the list as well. But
8:40
Speaker 1: I think I prefer a good old fashioned fish boat,
8:43
Speaker 1: you know, I agree. I think keep it simple, right, Yeah,
8:47
Speaker 1: there were a couple other submarines at the time that
8:50
Speaker 1: people were building at home and people were coming up
8:52
Speaker 1: with their own prototypes. One of my personal favorite names
8:55
Speaker 1: is the intelligent Whale. I think that was a great one.
8:59
Speaker 1: That's really insulting to Wales though, honestly, I mean, you know,
9:03
Speaker 1: come on, my sister in law began referring to herself
9:06
Speaker 1: that way when she was pregnant with twins. Um not me,
9:11
Speaker 1: but I was laughing when she used it on herself.
9:14
Speaker 1: So but yeah, after that, they started building this fishboat
9:19
Speaker 1: submarine and there's still in Alabama at this point. But
9:22
Speaker 1: the Union just keeps closing in. It keeps knocking down
9:24
Speaker 1: the city after city, and one of their major plans
9:28
Speaker 1: is to take advantage of the fact that the Confederacy
9:31
Speaker 1: really doesn't have much of a navy. So what they're
9:34
Speaker 1: doing is they're black hating all of these major cities
9:37
Speaker 1: where they can get supplies in and out. The Confederacy
9:41
Speaker 1: has allies in Europe. That's who's sending them black powder
9:44
Speaker 1: while they're getting therese kind of startup of that production ready.
9:47
Speaker 1: It's who's sending them food to replace the food of
9:51
Speaker 1: the farmers who are now fighting um and so block
9:55
Speaker 1: hating these cities was a really effective strategy to just
9:59
Speaker 1: starve them out, And eventually Charleston, South Carolina ended up
10:03
Speaker 1: kind of being the last major Southern cities still to fall.
10:09
Speaker 1: And there are these Union ships just line outside the harbor,
10:12
Speaker 1: and dyve got this submarine in Alabama. They've got this
10:15
Speaker 1: problem in Charleston. So they end up putting the submarine
10:18
Speaker 1: on a train and shipping it over to South Carolina
10:22
Speaker 1: and they start using it over there, and the eventual
10:25
Speaker 1: goal is to just break the blockade. And at the time,
10:29
Speaker 1: just related to this, I believe the Confederate government was
10:33
Speaker 1: offering what fifty thousand dollars in eighteen sixties money to
10:38
Speaker 1: anyone who could sink a Union worship. So this is
10:42
Speaker 1: maybe a risky investment and probably seen as a patriotic one, uh,
10:46
Speaker 1: but it could have enormous returns. It also was, from
10:51
Speaker 1: what I understand, it was pretty lethal even in the
10:55
Speaker 1: testing phase. Right, didn't more than half of the initial
10:59
Speaker 1: crew die in testing for the Hunley. Yes, So you've
11:03
Speaker 1: hit on two kind of key points about the history
11:05
Speaker 1: of the submarine. Is First, that's how privateers worked. Is
11:09
Speaker 1: these were private citizens and they were using these vessels
11:13
Speaker 1: to try to collect basically a bounty, and it was
11:17
Speaker 1: a bit of a sliding scale, but basically the Confederacy
11:20
Speaker 1: was offering them the price value of the Union ship
11:24
Speaker 1: itself plus something like I'd have to fact check the
11:27
Speaker 1: exact number, but it was a something like twenty dollars
11:30
Speaker 1: per sailor on board. So if you had one of
11:34
Speaker 1: their larger vessels where they had like two hundred two
11:37
Speaker 1: fifty sailors on board, that could really contribute to the
11:42
Speaker 1: take home prize. And that was what Hunley and his
11:46
Speaker 1: compatriots were eventually going to do. Really quick, question, um,
11:50
Speaker 1: he he himself actually went along for one of these
11:53
Speaker 1: test rides. Why why would he do that? Is it
11:56
Speaker 1: to like, you know, earn the kind of trust of
11:58
Speaker 1: his crew, Like if he's just it's like a kind
12:00
Speaker 1: of bloodthirsty, you know, privateer, just trying to make his catch.
12:03
Speaker 1: Why would he put himself in harm's way? Because he
12:05
Speaker 1: did ultimately perish in one of these, uh these you
12:08
Speaker 1: know fatal tests that that went awry. Oh spoilers, No,
12:13
Speaker 1: it's okay. I was about to get to that. That
12:15
Speaker 1: was my next dance there anyway, So inside my mind yes,
12:21
Speaker 1: So this boat had a pretty horrific trek record, and
12:25
Speaker 1: that was known even at a time, like they're these
12:27
Speaker 1: historical documents with these terrible quotes like um, one of
12:31
Speaker 1: my favorites was to call it an abortion of invented
12:34
Speaker 1: genius um. And so people were saying really disparaging things
12:39
Speaker 1: at the time because she kept killing her crew. So
12:43
Speaker 1: it sank once in what the modern day military would
12:46
Speaker 1: call dog and pony show. They were basically just trying
12:49
Speaker 1: to show off for a bunch of spectators. Um. Not
12:51
Speaker 1: that great at controlling information flow. But several of the
12:56
Speaker 1: crew died then. And then Horse Hunley one day, even
13:00
Speaker 1: though he hadn't been in the boat himself for months
13:03
Speaker 1: and he was not necessarily super well trained in it,
13:07
Speaker 1: while the normal pilot of the boat was out of town,
13:12
Speaker 1: he decided that he wanted to go for a drive himself,
13:16
Speaker 1: and so he wasn't Yeah, he wasn't trying to go
13:19
Speaker 1: on a specific mission. He was just kind of joy riding,
13:22
Speaker 1: taking it around the maritime block, right. Yeah. I think
13:26
Speaker 1: it might have even been in the harbor if you
13:28
Speaker 1: look at the map. He didn't look like he was
13:31
Speaker 1: aiming to even get out. Um. He just looked like
13:35
Speaker 1: he was kind of joy riding in the submarine. But
13:38
Speaker 1: he ended up driving this thing face first into the
13:41
Speaker 1: bottom of Charleston Harbor where it got stuck and they
13:45
Speaker 1: couldn't get it out, and he and the other seven
13:48
Speaker 1: members of this crew is fixated inside. So Horace Henley
13:51
Speaker 1: was found in the forward conning tower, which was the
13:53
Speaker 1: main exit, with his right hand pushing against that door
13:57
Speaker 1: as he's trying to bash his way out of the submarine.
14:01
Speaker 1: And this is all before the mystery that we set
14:04
Speaker 1: up at the top of the show. We should say
14:07
Speaker 1: this is yeah, this is all the the checkered past
14:10
Speaker 1: of the Huntley. So as as you may infer listeners,
14:14
Speaker 1: when this when this sub sank, uh, this is not
14:19
Speaker 1: where the story ends, because later now the substincts in
14:24
Speaker 1: eighteen sixty three, right later, in eighteen sixty four, it
14:29
Speaker 1: is resurrected. Right, it's pulled from the muck. They pulled
14:32
Speaker 1: it out pretty quickly, actually, so each time they still
14:35
Speaker 1: wanted to be able to use it, so they pulled
14:37
Speaker 1: it out within at most a couple of weeks. Oh great, Yeah,
14:41
Speaker 1: the descriptions of that are still pretty horrifying. If you
14:44
Speaker 1: really want some nightmares because the people were trapped inside,
14:48
Speaker 1: and so they started to decompose, but they had um
14:52
Speaker 1: salvage divers pulled the submarine up and they forced slaves
14:56
Speaker 1: to clean it out because this was the Confederate solf.
15:00
Speaker 1: But then they would find a new crew each time,
15:03
Speaker 1: and after Henley died, that's when they renamed it in
15:06
Speaker 1: his honor. But yes, that is the start of really
15:08
Speaker 1: the mystery part. Their final mission was February eighteen sixty
15:14
Speaker 1: four and a whole fresh new crew um takes it
15:19
Speaker 1: out and they are successful. So they managed to sink
15:22
Speaker 1: one of the Union ships in the blockade, and after
15:26
Speaker 1: that victory they disappear. What that meant was that the
15:30
Speaker 1: people in Charleston who knew about these previous sinkings had
15:34
Speaker 1: a very easy explanation. At the time. They assumed that
15:38
Speaker 1: it sank the way that it had before, that everyone
15:40
Speaker 1: inside had drowned and asphixiated exactly like they had before.
15:45
Speaker 1: But where it got really interesting was when this boat
15:48
Speaker 1: was raised and in two thousand they started conserving it.
15:52
Speaker 1: As they're starting to scoop out the silt and the
15:54
Speaker 1: crub and the you know, dead crabs and crustaceans that
15:58
Speaker 1: have filled this thing over a hundred few years in
16:00
Speaker 1: the ocean. They find all of the skeletons of the
16:03
Speaker 1: crew inside, and everyone is completely free of any sign
16:08
Speaker 1: of skeletal trauma. But they're also seated at their stations,
16:12
Speaker 1: which means they weren't like Horse Huntley, trying to bash
16:15
Speaker 1: their way out the conning tower. They didn't see what
16:19
Speaker 1: killed them. They didn't see it coming, and so that
16:23
Speaker 1: became a much more interesting problem because all of a
16:26
Speaker 1: sudden you have a new cause of death that's definitely
16:29
Speaker 1: going to be dissimilar from the previous thinkings. Really quickly,
16:37
Speaker 1: I want to get into a little bit about your
16:39
Speaker 1: background and your specialization, because obviously, up to this point
16:43
Speaker 1: you we've been interviewing you like a historian. We're talking
16:45
Speaker 1: about all of these facts and all of the stories
16:47
Speaker 1: that led up to this, but you're actually hardcore scientists.
16:50
Speaker 1: For lack of a better term, I mean you your
16:53
Speaker 1: research is um in hyperbaric medicine and environmental physiology, to
16:58
Speaker 1: name one. I believe that is that we got your
17:00
Speaker 1: PhD in or is that what you kind of the
17:02
Speaker 1: research that led to you getting your PhD? Well, basically
17:05
Speaker 1: I'm just an ocean nerd. That's kind of the how
17:08
Speaker 1: I described myself at parties. But I really love examining
17:14
Speaker 1: what happens to the human body underwater, and sometimes I
17:16
Speaker 1: do like high altitude stuff as well. These extreme environments
17:20
Speaker 1: are remarkably similar in the stress as they place on
17:23
Speaker 1: our bodies. But yeah, anytime people are underwater, we're, like
17:27
Speaker 1: you said at the top of the show, we're existing
17:29
Speaker 1: in environment where we're not supposed to be, and so
17:32
Speaker 1: interesting things start happening physiologically. You see new types of injuries,
17:36
Speaker 1: you see new types of functions of your lungs and
17:39
Speaker 1: of your basculature. But yeah, that is the majority of
17:42
Speaker 1: my background is as a pretty hardcore scientist, but also
17:45
Speaker 1: as an engineer. UM I got started working as a
17:48
Speaker 1: mechanical engineer for the Navy building underwater breathing systems, and
17:53
Speaker 1: from that I kind of sprang into Duke University. I
17:57
Speaker 1: was working in a lab that specializes in blast from
18:00
Speaker 1: and explosives. So for me, coming from the underwater world
18:04
Speaker 1: into this lab that specializes in blast trauma and explosives,
18:07
Speaker 1: it was a really natural fit for me to start
18:08
Speaker 1: sending underwater explosives and and on that note, just to interject,
18:13
Speaker 1: I believe you are not to put too fine a
18:15
Speaker 1: point on it. Uh, the lead the leading underwater blast
18:20
Speaker 1: trauma specialist on this continent. I I don't want to
18:23
Speaker 1: make it too awkward bragging about you in front of you,
18:26
Speaker 1: but that's that's what we founded our research. Here's the thing.
18:29
Speaker 1: Then if you make yourself specific enough, eventually you are
18:34
Speaker 1: the leading one of it. Man Bull is the leading
18:38
Speaker 1: podcaster recording from home while wearing a gray hat. Right
18:41
Speaker 1: now about is There's no question about that. I do
18:48
Speaker 1: think it is important for us to emphasize that there
18:52
Speaker 1: is a ton of science that goes into this. That's
18:55
Speaker 1: that's one of the driving tools that this is the
18:59
Speaker 1: only tool we can successfully use to solve mysteries like these.
19:03
Speaker 1: But one question I have would be personal motivation. So
19:07
Speaker 1: in two thousand, right, the sub is, as you said,
19:09
Speaker 1: Rachel finally recovered what inspires you? Like, what was your
19:13
Speaker 1: journey toward diving into this mystery? Did you maybe diving
19:17
Speaker 1: in as a poor choice of words, my apologies, but
19:19
Speaker 1: what what like did you immediately hear about it and say,
19:24
Speaker 1: you know, like I've got to get on this, like
19:26
Speaker 1: a law in order Doom Doom sort of theme starts
19:30
Speaker 1: and the investigation begins or did your colleagues contact you?
19:33
Speaker 1: What what was your journey towards this mystery. Well, in
19:36
Speaker 1: two thousand, I had just turned sixteen, so like most
19:41
Speaker 1: sixteen year old girls, I was fully immersed in the
19:44
Speaker 1: world of Civil war submarines. That's definitely sarcasm. No, I
19:50
Speaker 1: wasn't really aware of it at the time. You know,
19:52
Speaker 1: it's a little bit more my opically focused, like a
19:55
Speaker 1: lot of teenagers tend to be. And so I really
19:58
Speaker 1: didn't find out about this mystery and till I was
20:00
Speaker 1: already in graduate school working on my PhD. And it
20:05
Speaker 1: was my advisor's idea. One of the things that he
20:07
Speaker 1: and I share in common is we both really love history.
20:10
Speaker 1: We both are always looking for the next kind of
20:14
Speaker 1: historical project. Because when you work in blast and ballistic trauma,
20:19
Speaker 1: a lot of your injuries come from more and so
20:23
Speaker 1: that means that you are also researching history quite often,
20:26
Speaker 1: because it's also an injury that you don't want to
20:28
Speaker 1: inflict on people on purpose. Um So I scavenge old
20:33
Speaker 1: case files a lot, and a lot of that involves
20:35
Speaker 1: like tracking soldiers and tracking what happens in battles and
20:38
Speaker 1: things like that. So this particular project came up as
20:42
Speaker 1: I was working on a World War two project looking
20:44
Speaker 1: at soldiers who were in the water when torpedoes went off,
20:48
Speaker 1: and he sort of just suggested it one day and
20:51
Speaker 1: we both thought it would be a really fun side project.
20:54
Speaker 1: But it got quickly really out of hand. So um,
20:59
Speaker 1: as it's pretty obvious from the books or from the
21:02
Speaker 1: book beings spiraled wildly out of control with these experiments.
21:06
Speaker 1: But I'm really proud of the way it turned out
21:07
Speaker 1: me and the Huntley is pretty famous around the part
21:10
Speaker 1: of the country where you live because it was discovered
21:12
Speaker 1: by Clive Cussler, who is a pretty well known author,
21:16
Speaker 1: and he wrote about it pretty extensively. But is he
21:19
Speaker 1: was more of a fiction author, wasn't he like like
21:21
Speaker 1: almost like a like a clancy or something like that. Right, Yes,
21:25
Speaker 1: he definitely is a history fan himself, but his books
21:29
Speaker 1: particularly are fiction. A lot of times they're kind of
21:32
Speaker 1: inspired by these weird stories in true history though, so
21:36
Speaker 1: um He's also used a lot of the proceeds from
21:38
Speaker 1: his books to kind of go and explore the oceans. Uh.
21:43
Speaker 1: So best was one of his projects for that. And
21:45
Speaker 1: I should note too that there have been other people
21:48
Speaker 1: throughout the past hundred fifty years who have claimed that
21:51
Speaker 1: they found the Huntley, and some of them are very credible.
21:54
Speaker 1: But once you have a name like Clive Cussler saying
21:57
Speaker 1: it all of a sudden, the news agencies pay a
22:00
Speaker 1: lot more attention. So that was kind of like the
22:02
Speaker 1: really big news story was when Cleff Custler found it
22:06
Speaker 1: and he connected it to his books and things like that.
22:08
Speaker 1: So yeah, let's get back to our investigation here. So
22:13
Speaker 1: you're you're looking into this and you're noticing it's a
22:17
Speaker 1: little grim, but but it is science. You're noting that
22:20
Speaker 1: the position of the bodies shows that there weren't people
22:25
Speaker 1: rushing to the hatches, and this is this is a
22:29
Speaker 1: huge clue of sorts that that that plays a role
22:34
Speaker 1: in your hypothesis, your drive to solve the mystery of
22:39
Speaker 1: what actually happened to the Huntley, because I believe at first,
22:44
Speaker 1: you know, after what was it the first submarine to
22:47
Speaker 1: successfully sink an enemy vessel? Uh, after it sank the Houstatonic,
22:53
Speaker 1: it disappeared, as you said, people on people of the time,
22:58
Speaker 1: contemporary experts said, well, that thing's cursed. Basically, I think
23:03
Speaker 1: it's sank or whatever. What was your hypothesis, How did
23:07
Speaker 1: you start putting these pieces together, what did you think
23:11
Speaker 1: ultimately happened to the Huntley? And then how did you
23:13
Speaker 1: test it? Well, I don't want to give away too much. Um.
23:20
Speaker 1: The thing that really sold me on this as a
23:22
Speaker 1: project was looking at the images of where the skeletal
23:25
Speaker 1: remains were found. So you can find this with a
23:27
Speaker 1: quick Google. If you look at the color coded images
23:31
Speaker 1: of where each crewman was positioned and seeing that they
23:34
Speaker 1: were each at their crank station and seeing that they
23:36
Speaker 1: had no skeleton trauma. That's a really big alarm for
23:41
Speaker 1: a blast trauma specialist because that's actually kind of the
23:45
Speaker 1: hallmark of a blast trauma. Everyone thinks that you're gonna
23:49
Speaker 1: get Jesson Stetha thrown across the room. Well, he said,
23:54
Speaker 1: how stands up. He's got smoot on his face now,
23:56
Speaker 1: but he's still running off to finish his mission, and
24:00
Speaker 1: that's really unrealistic. Um. I apologize for her just having
24:03
Speaker 1: ruined every movie you'll ever watch, but that's not really
24:08
Speaker 1: how it happens. Like to get a blast that throws someone,
24:12
Speaker 1: it has to be quite far above the lethal range,
24:15
Speaker 1: So if someone's being thrown by the blast, they are dead.
24:20
Speaker 1: And that's part of why I wanted to examine the submarine.
24:22
Speaker 1: But as a scientist, you can't just declare this is
24:26
Speaker 1: my theory, this is all I'm going to pay attention to.
24:28
Speaker 1: That's really bad science because you need to pay proper
24:33
Speaker 1: attention to all of the other ideas as well, and
24:36
Speaker 1: approach them from kind of a databased standpoint and things
24:40
Speaker 1: like that. So that was how I started out with
24:42
Speaker 1: the project, was actually looking at the other explanations, especially
24:45
Speaker 1: looking at this theory that they all asphyxiated inside the
24:48
Speaker 1: submarine hall. And I was able to eliminate that one
24:51
Speaker 1: because they were a positioned the way they were if
24:55
Speaker 1: you get really honest about it, it gets pretty graphic.
24:58
Speaker 1: But if you look at every submarine sinking throughout history,
25:02
Speaker 1: the people inside knew they were about to die, and
25:07
Speaker 1: the way that they were found is consistent between every
25:10
Speaker 1: single other submarine accident in history. So you look at
25:14
Speaker 1: like that the square list to ask for the hmstidas.
25:17
Speaker 1: All of them, people are clustered near the exits, and
25:21
Speaker 1: they're impostures and positions that indicate that they're really suffering
25:25
Speaker 1: and that's very unfortunate. But the reason for that is
25:29
Speaker 1: because they're experiencing carbon dioxide. I've experienced carbon dioxide before.
25:35
Speaker 1: It's terrible. I don't want to do it again. It
25:38
Speaker 1: hurts you get this like splitting migraine. I mean, I
25:42
Speaker 1: was curled up, um, curled up on the deck of
25:46
Speaker 1: a dive boat, like please just sleep me here for
25:48
Speaker 1: a few minutes, and it's really unpleasant. Um. And so
25:53
Speaker 1: to suggest that people experience that and then chose to
25:58
Speaker 1: stay where they are anyway is really consistent with human nature,
26:03
Speaker 1: especially when you find that carbon dioxide is used by
26:06
Speaker 1: psychiatrists to intentionally cause panic attacks. So these aren't even
26:10
Speaker 1: people who are thinking logically anymore. This is a biologically
26:13
Speaker 1: induced panic attack. Isn't part of the phenomenon of carbon
26:16
Speaker 1: dioxide poisoning or for lack of a better term, like
26:19
Speaker 1: your blood actually becomes increasingly acidic because of you know,
26:24
Speaker 1: kind of trying to compensate for this, and that is
26:27
Speaker 1: painful as well, Like you can experience that as a
26:29
Speaker 1: actual sensation. Yeah, so kind of in a way. I
26:33
Speaker 1: don't know that any person, at least me, has enough
26:36
Speaker 1: experience to be like, oh, my blood feels acidic today,
26:40
Speaker 1: But that's what's happening on a biological level, and your
26:45
Speaker 1: body has coping mechanisms to try to deal with that,
26:48
Speaker 1: and that's what you end up feeling a symptoms. So,
26:50
Speaker 1: for example, that headache is your body expanding the blood
26:54
Speaker 1: vessels in your brain. It's trying to offload some of
26:57
Speaker 1: this acidity, so it's no longer reaching your brain, and
27:00
Speaker 1: that's what we perceive as a headache. And that was
27:02
Speaker 1: one of the clues. Again, I don't want to give
27:04
Speaker 1: away too much either, and really quickly, I just want
27:06
Speaker 1: to say, reading your book, um it it reads like
27:09
Speaker 1: an adventure novel. It's really well written. It's very visceral,
27:12
Speaker 1: and you really feel like there's a scene where you
27:16
Speaker 1: pick up this black powder, um you know, to run
27:19
Speaker 1: your tests and you almost get into this crazy traffic
27:21
Speaker 1: accident and you really feel the stakes of everything that
27:25
Speaker 1: you're doing. And the way it's written is it's lots
27:27
Speaker 1: a lot of fun, there's a lot of science, there's
27:29
Speaker 1: a lot of history, but it is an absolutely page
27:31
Speaker 1: turning kind of adventure read. So I just want to
27:34
Speaker 1: put that out there for everyone absolutely read this book.
27:36
Speaker 1: We're certainly not going to spoil anything, but um, it's
27:38
Speaker 1: it's a really fun read. Um, can we talk a
27:41
Speaker 1: little bit about the clues when you started actually doing
27:44
Speaker 1: your tests that kind of leads you to discount some
27:47
Speaker 1: of those things, other than the fact that people weren't
27:49
Speaker 1: piled up clawing their way out of the submarine, some
27:52
Speaker 1: of the kind of scientific cues that you took after
27:55
Speaker 1: you started doing these tests. So one of the scientific
27:58
Speaker 1: clues to me that wasn't extremely conclusive, but that was
28:03
Speaker 1: sort of a hint and a wink and a point
28:05
Speaker 1: in the right direction, was that when these crew members
28:10
Speaker 1: were recovered, a lot of them still had intact brains
28:13
Speaker 1: inside their skulls. And that's interesting for several reasons. First
28:18
Speaker 1: of all, the discovery that the human brain can survive
28:20
Speaker 1: for a hundred fIF years in salt water, But from
28:25
Speaker 1: a biological perspective, a lot of their brains had these
28:28
Speaker 1: kind of diffuse patterns and stains that were just on
28:32
Speaker 1: the surface. And really, because again we don't have a
28:37
Speaker 1: ton of examples of people staying underwater for that long,
28:39
Speaker 1: there are multiple possible things that could explain that. But
28:43
Speaker 1: what's also important to know from my perspective is that's
28:47
Speaker 1: what blast trauma looks like. So once again, that's how
28:51
Speaker 1: a brain injury from blast appears, especially one that's in
28:54
Speaker 1: the fatal ranges. You end up having what's called a hematoma,
28:58
Speaker 1: which is that big breading of bloods somewhere on the brain,
29:02
Speaker 1: and it can appear in any location on the brain,
29:04
Speaker 1: but it only appears really on the surface, and the
29:07
Speaker 1: brain itself isn't disrupted. The brain looks completely intact. It
29:10
Speaker 1: kind of just looks like this paint splotch has appeared.
29:14
Speaker 1: So for me when I read about that finding, again,
29:17
Speaker 1: you can't really eliminate all the other possibilities just because
29:20
Speaker 1: we don't have a lot of examples of brains in
29:22
Speaker 1: that state. But it's another kind of hint and wink
29:26
Speaker 1: and suggestion that we might be dealing with the blast
29:29
Speaker 1: trauma here. So picking back up on the idea of
29:39
Speaker 1: black powder, which which I believe we mentioned just briefly there,
29:43
Speaker 1: one thing that I found fascinating about in the waves
29:48
Speaker 1: was that there was a lot of science going into
29:51
Speaker 1: black powder that I wasn't I wasn't familiar with. Like,
29:55
Speaker 1: you know, I've never built a civil war sub I've
29:58
Speaker 1: never even built a regular torpedo or underwater explosive much
30:03
Speaker 1: less you know, like loaded a gun with powder. So
30:06
Speaker 1: how do you even test that? Like? How what? It's
30:10
Speaker 1: just such a strange concept to me because it seems
30:12
Speaker 1: like such a uh an archaic means of propellant or blasting.
30:19
Speaker 1: What was it like when you were thinking, Okay, how
30:22
Speaker 1: do we figure out the role of black powder? And
30:25
Speaker 1: what is is black powder just gunpowder? Um? It depends.
30:29
Speaker 1: The word gunpowder can mean a couple different things. Black
30:31
Speaker 1: powder is the more specific. Sometimes when people say gunpowder
30:36
Speaker 1: they mean smokeless powder also, which has different blast characteristics.
30:39
Speaker 1: I won't go into that because I like you guys, um,
30:44
Speaker 1: but black powder is like a very specific mixture. And yeah,
30:48
Speaker 1: there was a lot more involved in the finer points
30:52
Speaker 1: of black powder that I had anticipated when I started
30:54
Speaker 1: the project as well. But one of the things that's
30:56
Speaker 1: really important and looking at blast fraumas is looking at
30:59
Speaker 1: your explosive making sure that you know that, um, people
31:02
Speaker 1: are getting blessed in the correct way for that problem.
31:06
Speaker 1: And just a little we kind of dived right into
31:08
Speaker 1: black powder. But just to really really be clear, this
31:11
Speaker 1: quote unquote torpedo is propelled by this very archaic, very finicky,
31:18
Speaker 1: dangerous material that you actually transported in the trunk of
31:22
Speaker 1: your Subaru or something or pontiac. I think it was right.
31:25
Speaker 1: It was a Pontiac. I'm a Detroit girl. I do
31:27
Speaker 1: have American power. Um. Yes, so I was transporting black
31:33
Speaker 1: powder and what I was doing was completely legal. I
31:35
Speaker 1: feel like that's important for me to throw out there.
31:38
Speaker 1: But yeah, the thing with black powder is if you
31:41
Speaker 1: hit it and the heat generated from impact can cause
31:46
Speaker 1: it to go off. And so me being in a
31:49
Speaker 1: Pontiac on the highway where two cars in front of
31:53
Speaker 1: me just crashed into each other randomly, and there was
31:56
Speaker 1: a massive truck really aggressively tailgating me was a kind
32:00
Speaker 1: of terrifying moment in the experiment. But thankfully as an
32:03
Speaker 1: injury and trauma specialist, I am an O c D
32:06
Speaker 1: safety minded driver, and so I had a little bit
32:10
Speaker 1: extra following distance knowing what was in my trunk. But um, yeah,
32:14
Speaker 1: that guy behind me, who was clearly texting, should have
32:17
Speaker 1: been a lot more aware because he had no idea
32:19
Speaker 1: what he was when he was so close too with
32:23
Speaker 1: his grill. Yeah, but um, dealing with black powder is
32:27
Speaker 1: a difficult adventure and I hope to never ever do
32:30
Speaker 1: it again. It's extremely finicky. So first off, as a
32:34
Speaker 1: fellow defensive driver, I very much appreciate the point you're
32:37
Speaker 1: making about vehicular safety. So but we should have phsized
32:42
Speaker 1: too that you weren't trying to intentionally explode something on
32:49
Speaker 1: another vehicle. Uh h. L Huntley was one of the
32:53
Speaker 1: things that fascinated me in in the waves was figure
33:00
Speaker 1: out how this torpedo technology would work. I was I
33:05
Speaker 1: was surprised to find out that it was. Um, I'm
33:10
Speaker 1: gonna say the word they kept coming to mind when
33:12
Speaker 1: I was reading about the setup was precarious. It was
33:16
Speaker 1: like dicey. Honestly, it was like why would you why
33:20
Speaker 1: would you get in that sub? But how did they
33:22
Speaker 1: make a torpedo and attach it? Well, they had these
33:25
Speaker 1: two brothers called the Rains Brothers, and there's some of
33:28
Speaker 1: my favorite characters in history because together I think they're
33:31
Speaker 1: really responsible for all the black powder and entire Confederacy. Um. So,
33:36
Speaker 1: one of them started a black powder mill for the
33:40
Speaker 1: Confederacy using a pamphlet and no other previous knowledge, and
33:44
Speaker 1: the other one invented land mines and built all of
33:48
Speaker 1: the mines and torpedoes for the South. So it's important
33:52
Speaker 1: to note here also that the word torpedo at this
33:54
Speaker 1: time in history means something different. It means more of
33:57
Speaker 1: a mine or stationary bomb, so it's not being propelled
34:01
Speaker 1: on its own. But I think that the case of
34:03
Speaker 1: the Hunley really emphasized why that technology would be useful.
34:09
Speaker 1: Because you have the Ugel Hunley in eighteen sixty four,
34:12
Speaker 1: it sets office torpedo nobody comes home alive. Eighteen seventies,
34:17
Speaker 1: people are already working on torpedo designs that can propel
34:20
Speaker 1: themselves through the water. So it's pretty immediately apparent that
34:24
Speaker 1: not only is this useful technology, but we don't want
34:26
Speaker 1: to be near it when it goes off. Um. So
34:29
Speaker 1: that was a really major impact on warfare within ten years,
34:32
Speaker 1: which is unusual. So to that point, like you know,
34:35
Speaker 1: the difference of the concept of a torpedo, how were
34:39
Speaker 1: they able to actually successfully destroy this Union ship? Like
34:44
Speaker 1: I mean, is it a slow thing where they deploy
34:47
Speaker 1: it and then kind of try to get away and
34:48
Speaker 1: there's a fuse on it, or can we just talk
34:50
Speaker 1: a little bit about the mechanics of how this thing
34:52
Speaker 1: would actually you know, be at any level precise. I mean,
34:57
Speaker 1: obviously it wasn't precise. That's a total misnumber. But there
34:59
Speaker 1: had be some level of control to it, otherwise it
35:02
Speaker 1: would just blow up, you know, inside the submarine and
35:04
Speaker 1: kill everybody every time. I think they had a surprising
35:08
Speaker 1: amount of control over it and also no control at
35:10
Speaker 1: the same time. The way that this thing worked, it
35:13
Speaker 1: was attached to a spar on the bow of the submarine,
35:17
Speaker 1: so it is outside the submarine, but it's still only
35:20
Speaker 1: sixteen ft away because that's the length of their spar.
35:22
Speaker 1: And then their torpedo had a pressure trigger, so what
35:25
Speaker 1: they had to do was hand cranked their submarine all
35:28
Speaker 1: the way up to the enemy ship, which is more
35:31
Speaker 1: courageous than it sounds, because they are being shot at
35:33
Speaker 1: while this happens, and jabbed the Union ship in the
35:37
Speaker 1: side of the hole with the pressure trigger on the torpedo.
35:41
Speaker 1: And we know that that successfully occurred because when the
35:44
Speaker 1: submarine and the spar were recovered, the little shards of
35:48
Speaker 1: that torpedo were still attached, so it was peeled backwards
35:52
Speaker 1: over the end of the spar like a daffy duck cigar.
35:56
Speaker 1: And then it was just cartoonish and clearly evident that
35:59
Speaker 1: it was still a hatched and only sixteen feet away,
36:02
Speaker 1: which was really key to setting up an accurate science
36:05
Speaker 1: experiment to figure out what happened. And again, I, you know,
36:08
Speaker 1: and I really don't want to spoil anything, um, but
36:12
Speaker 1: we have to talk a little bit about some of
36:14
Speaker 1: these simulations you ran. At the very least, we have
36:17
Speaker 1: to talk about Tiny. Yeah, tell us a little bit
36:20
Speaker 1: about a little bit about Tiny, and then we're gonna
36:23
Speaker 1: we're gonna let our listeners find out the rest of
36:25
Speaker 1: the story by getting your book. But we have to
36:27
Speaker 1: dig into Tiny a little bit because it's just it's
36:29
Speaker 1: too delightful not to discuss. People really like that I
36:33
Speaker 1: named the boat the Tiny. Sometimes when you're a lab
36:37
Speaker 1: at three o'clock in the morning and you have some
36:40
Speaker 1: spray paint, you make choices, so that that's how it
36:45
Speaker 1: got its moniker. But um, that was actually one of
36:49
Speaker 1: the things that I wanted to make sure I included
36:51
Speaker 1: in this book is because I think a lot of
36:53
Speaker 1: times when you read about the results of science, you
36:56
Speaker 1: get like a paragraph or at best in news article
36:59
Speaker 1: that condenses down years and years of research. For me,
37:03
Speaker 1: this was three years of working average sixty to eighty
37:07
Speaker 1: hours a week, and so life happens along the way too.
37:11
Speaker 1: And that's what I think is kind of interesting. Right now,
37:15
Speaker 1: we're dealing obviously, with this virus outbreak, and we've got
37:18
Speaker 1: people working really hard on different solutions and different vaccines.
37:21
Speaker 1: And I've never read another book where they take you
37:26
Speaker 1: through a scientific project and explain what that's actually like
37:30
Speaker 1: to be a scientist, to be a human being, you know,
37:34
Speaker 1: to almost get into car accident, to have your grandma die,
37:38
Speaker 1: like to get proposed to all while you're trying to
37:42
Speaker 1: plow through this experiment that is either important to you,
37:46
Speaker 1: like in my case, or is important to the world,
37:48
Speaker 1: like what these vaccine researchers are doing right now. Um.
37:51
Speaker 1: So I'm just hopeful that as people read this, they
37:54
Speaker 1: kind of understand a little bit better what goes into
37:57
Speaker 1: all of those news clips and how much real humanity
38:01
Speaker 1: is behind those stories, how this science sausage gets made.
38:05
Speaker 1: In other words, I think that's instructive too, and it's
38:08
Speaker 1: inspiring for a lot of the listeners in our audience.
38:12
Speaker 1: We have a you know, we have a lot of
38:14
Speaker 1: younger kids who listen to the show who are actively
38:17
Speaker 1: interested in pursuing stem and you know, humanizing that and
38:22
Speaker 1: making making sure that we all realize that the scientists
38:27
Speaker 1: you read about in a newsclip are themselves human beings
38:30
Speaker 1: and people. I think is a powerful thing and it's
38:34
Speaker 1: something that um, it's something that I personally am very
38:37
Speaker 1: appreciative of. And you know, it's funny like the we
38:41
Speaker 1: I set this up with asking you about tiny, which
38:44
Speaker 1: was the sort of the um miniaturized version of the
38:47
Speaker 1: huntly that you created, and in a blast of creativity
38:50
Speaker 1: and inspiration and maybe sleeplessness, UM three am, you named
38:54
Speaker 1: it tiny. But that's just the kind of little nugget
38:56
Speaker 1: that publishers love and they'll put in like a press
38:58
Speaker 1: kit for a book or that you can see in
39:00
Speaker 1: a headline or like really grab onto. But that was
39:02
Speaker 1: just one little detail that is kind of fun to
39:05
Speaker 1: talk about, but it represents so much effort and work
39:09
Speaker 1: that you put into not only the research, but then
39:12
Speaker 1: designing the experiment, um, creating a scale version of this
39:16
Speaker 1: scenario and running tests over and over and over again,
39:20
Speaker 1: and then that data became like gold to you, or
39:23
Speaker 1: you talk about in the book how you immediately backed
39:25
Speaker 1: it up in like triplicate UM. So it really is
39:28
Speaker 1: so much that goes into creating this, this math and
39:31
Speaker 1: this data that then can help you tell a story much,
39:34
Speaker 1: you know, much larger than just a headline or like
39:37
Speaker 1: a sound bite. Yeah, thank you. I think people often
39:41
Speaker 1: repeat the Thomas Edison quote and I forget the exact
39:43
Speaker 1: number he used, so you have to forgive my fudging it.
39:45
Speaker 1: But he said something like he didn't fail nine d
39:49
Speaker 1: or whatever number heat of times he used to make
39:52
Speaker 1: a light bulb. He learned nine hundred ways not to
39:54
Speaker 1: make a light bulb. But people don't think about the
39:57
Speaker 1: fact that that took years, so he failed for years.
40:02
Speaker 1: So even our most brilliant scientists and inventors are human
40:05
Speaker 1: beings with flaws, and anyone can do this stuff. It's
40:08
Speaker 1: just all about perseverance. And with that we want to
40:12
Speaker 1: be cautious about spoilers. You, like us, will have to
40:16
Speaker 1: check out the book to learn the rest of the story,
40:19
Speaker 1: and take my word for it. You won't regret it.
40:21
Speaker 1: The book is in the Waves by Quest to solve
40:24
Speaker 1: the mystery of a Civil War submarine. By the time
40:28
Speaker 1: you're hearing this, the book will be available wherever you
40:31
Speaker 1: find your favorite uh, your favorite nonfiction, your favorite solving
40:36
Speaker 1: of historical mysteries. Rachel, thank you so much for joining
40:40
Speaker 1: us on the air today. This has been an absolute pleasure,
40:43
Speaker 1: and I've got to say this is one of the
40:46
Speaker 1: episodes that sent me off to read more and more
40:51
Speaker 1: on my own about submarines just for my own personal edification.
40:55
Speaker 1: So uh so I owe you a personal thank you.
40:59
Speaker 1: Oh well, you're welcome many time I can hook someone
41:01
Speaker 1: else on submarines, I'm happy to do so. And can
41:03
Speaker 1: you tell listeners where to find you many social media
41:07
Speaker 1: stuff for any other places where you uh maybe post um,
41:10
Speaker 1: you know, the stuff that you're working on currently. I
41:13
Speaker 1: am on Twitter, I'm at Underwater Lance and they can
41:17
Speaker 1: also find me through my website which is Rachel and
41:20
Speaker 1: Lance Rights dot com. So they all have updates and
41:23
Speaker 1: announcements and things like that. Fantastic. Well, thanks so much
41:27
Speaker 1: again for joining us. Huge thanks as always to super
41:29
Speaker 1: producer Casey Pegram, Alex Williams, who composed our theme, our
41:33
Speaker 1: dear friend Christopher Haciotas, who is of course here in spirit.
41:37
Speaker 1: Thanks of course as always to Jonathan Strickland, a k a.
41:41
Speaker 1: The Quister, who's been saying some really nice things to
41:43
Speaker 1: me post quarantine. Rachel, that's a guy who makes a
41:47
Speaker 1: cameo on It's it's tough to explain, don't worry about it.
41:50
Speaker 1: He's a nice guy. Ben Well, he's sort of our
41:54
Speaker 1: nemesis is the thing, but it's sort of a soft
41:56
Speaker 1: Cold War kind of nemeses. But I will say this,
41:59
Speaker 1: he has been rocking the steampunk um outbreak gear and
42:04
Speaker 1: I am here for it. He's got this like kind
42:06
Speaker 1: of bandana and these goggles and like a cowboy hat.
42:09
Speaker 1: Situation is sort of a West World meets um, you know,
42:13
Speaker 1: a Kira kind of steam Boy kind of situation. I'm
42:15
Speaker 1: all about it. But thanks Jonathan for being a pal
42:18
Speaker 1: and also for ruining our lives sometimes. And thanks again
42:22
Speaker 1: to you Rachel, Thanks to everyone who is tuning in.
42:25
Speaker 1: As I said at the top, we hope this message
42:27
Speaker 1: finds you happy, healthy and safe. I just followed at
42:30
Speaker 1: underwater Lance on Twitter. Uh, so I can dig it
42:33
Speaker 1: to morse up news. Uh and well, we hope that
42:37
Speaker 1: we hope that you will share some of your favorite
42:41
Speaker 1: strange stories or historical mysteries of your that have yet
42:46
Speaker 1: to be solved or recently solved. Let us know you
42:48
Speaker 1: can find us all over the internet where on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter.
42:52
Speaker 1: Do check out our community page Ridiculous Historians on Facebook.
42:56
Speaker 1: And if you don't want to do any of that,
42:57
Speaker 1: you can just send us an email to ridiculous us
43:00
Speaker 1: at i heart radio dot com. We'll see you next time, folks.
43:09
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the i
43:12
Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to
43:14
Speaker 1: your favorite shows.