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Florence Broadhurst: The Evidence Left Behind | Tony Russell · Real Crime with Adam Shand

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Apoche production.
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: Welcome to real crime at Adam Shand. I'm your host,
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: Adam Shand. As early days ago on the policing job,
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: this was a shocker. October fifteenth, nineteen seventy seven, nineteen
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: year old Probationary Constable Tony Russell attended a call.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: With his sergeant at a factory.
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: In Paddington owned by wallpaper designer Florence Broadhurst.
• 0:34
  Speaker 3: Florence Broadhurst, a celebrated figure in Sydney's design scene, was
• 0:39
  Speaker 3: reported missing from her Paddington workshop after neighbours noticed the
• 0:43
  Speaker 3: factory doors left open.
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: The police searched the premises and at first found no
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: sign of Broadhurst. Then Tony needed to use the bathroom,
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: and what he found in there.
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: Altered the course of his life.
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: A coroner's post mortem found that Florence Broadhurst had been
• 1:02
  Speaker 3: brutally bashed.
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: The seventy eight year old Broadhurst had been bludgeoned with
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: a piece of timber and her head jammed down the
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: toilet in an apparent attempt to drown her.
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: Despite her reward offered by the New South Wales Premiere,
• 1:15
  Speaker 3: no suspect has ever been charged and the murder remains
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: unsolved nearly five decades on.
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: This was almost the beginning of Tony's police career and
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: was also the beginning of the end. The case was
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: never solved, and it's always stayed with Tony. He left
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: the force not long after and never received any treatment
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: for the trauma he suffered that day. In recent years,
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: Tony has dedicated himself to assisting other police cadets who
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: suffered post traumatic stress injuries, and he's kindly agreed to
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: discuss that work and how finding Florence Broadhurst changed everything
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: in his life.
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: A Tony, there are you going, Adam?
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: Good mate, Great to talk to you again. We met
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: while we were making a TV show about this, and
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: it struck me how a that the impact that it
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: had on you stayed with you, but also how your
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: evidence on that critical first day of the investigation was
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: almost ignored.
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: Is that how it sat with you?
• 2:17
  Speaker 4: Well, it still sits with me that way, because I
• 2:19
  Speaker 4: wonder if the evidence that I held could have changed
• 2:22
  Speaker 4: the course of the investigation. There are a lot of
• 2:25
  Speaker 4: facts overlooked or unknown, and there was no statement given
• 2:29
  Speaker 4: by me, So it still haunts me that maybe I
• 2:33
  Speaker 4: don't know. The police may have never followed the right channels.
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: Well, details are critically important in those early hours of
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: any investigation. I think that's I think you did right.
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: You're very humble about that, but try to set the
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: scene for us on that day what happened.
• 2:49
  Speaker 4: I think this is approximate time, about nine or ten
• 2:52
  Speaker 4: in the morning on that day, and I think might
• 2:53
  Speaker 4: have been someday. It was my first day at Paddington
• 2:57
  Speaker 4: and I took a phone call from a chap who
• 2:59
  Speaker 4: lived across the road from Florence Broad Versus Factory in mcaulay,
• 3:03
  Speaker 4: who expressed concern for Florence as lights had been left
• 3:06
  Speaker 4: on all night in the factory and the front door
• 3:09
  Speaker 4: was still open. So I said, okay, we'll come down
• 3:11
  Speaker 4: and have a look. And that's when I grabbed the
• 3:13
  Speaker 4: sergeant and we said we've got a job. And we
• 3:16
  Speaker 4: drove down to Ralston and we met the neighbor and
• 3:20
  Speaker 4: we suggested he stay outside because you wouldn't know what's inside.
• 3:24
  Speaker 4: It was agreed when we walked in at the sergeant
• 3:25
  Speaker 4: would go upstairs and check the office area, and I'd
• 3:28
  Speaker 4: checked the factory. When you're searching for stuff, you didn't
• 3:31
  Speaker 4: know what you're going to find. So it was a
• 3:32
  Speaker 4: little bit apprehensive, searched the factory, coming to the last
• 3:36
  Speaker 4: bit of it. At the rear door, there's a red
• 3:39
  Speaker 4: door that was slightly ajar and there was about a
• 3:41
  Speaker 4: twenty liter ten plastic with a light of timber in it.
• 3:45
  Speaker 4: And remember picking a timber up and noticing all the
• 3:48
  Speaker 4: red substance on the end of that timber, and I thought,
• 3:52
  Speaker 4: I'll just leave that there for later and see what
• 3:54
  Speaker 4: it is. I then ventured upstairs to meet the sergeant
• 3:59
  Speaker 4: upstairs in the office, and we checked the kitchen. At
• 4:03
  Speaker 4: the office. We did notice that the hallway with windows open,
• 4:08
  Speaker 4: was wet. The carpet was soaking wet, and we thought
• 4:11
  Speaker 4: because there was rain overnight, maybe the water had got
• 4:13
  Speaker 4: in or if anyone was in there, they'd gone out
• 4:16
  Speaker 4: the window. There was nothing out of water. There was
• 4:18
  Speaker 4: a handbag on the desk and I can tell you
• 4:22
  Speaker 4: this it had cash in that handbag. There's coffee cups
• 4:26
  Speaker 4: on the table. And as we were about to leave,
• 4:30
  Speaker 4: I thought I better use to loo, so I said,
• 4:32
  Speaker 4: as a sergeant, did he check the toilet and he hadn't,
• 4:35
  Speaker 4: so I ventured to use the toilet, of course, and
• 4:39
  Speaker 4: the door was a bit stiff so we'll give it
• 4:41
  Speaker 4: a good shoved. As I've opened the door, the first
• 4:44
  Speaker 4: thing I've seen was the head of Florence Broaders in
• 4:47
  Speaker 4: the toilet with the right arm was up around the
• 4:50
  Speaker 4: head and the head was leaning into the toilet. And
• 4:53
  Speaker 4: I'm thinking the bright red had and it was wet.
• 4:57
  Speaker 4: It's just this looking pile of pulp and blood.
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was.
• 5:02
  Speaker 4: I quickly exited the building. I redentally fainted. I tell you,
• 5:06
  Speaker 4: I was shocked. And on the way up the sergeant
• 5:09
  Speaker 4: see me, said what's wrong, and I basically said, she's
• 5:12
  Speaker 4: in the toilet and I went outside for fresh air.
• 5:15
  Speaker 4: I just yeah, it wasn't in a good way.
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And that image is the one that stayed with
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: you ever since, isn't it.
• 5:25
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's images. You'll never forget that image. It's just
• 5:29
  Speaker 4: like I've seen worse things in the police force, there
• 5:31
  Speaker 4: was that one thing with one image that. Not expecting
• 5:35
  Speaker 4: to see anything, of course, you just go into the loof,
• 5:38
  Speaker 4: for goodness sake, and you walk in and see that. Yeah,
• 5:40
  Speaker 4: it was a shock. It was a big shock. What
• 5:43
  Speaker 4: happened next, I think the sergeant put put a call
• 5:47
  Speaker 4: into the detectives or the detectives turned up. I couldn't
• 5:50
  Speaker 4: tell you any any cars turned up. I was standing
• 5:53
  Speaker 4: outside the sergeant and the detective approached me and said,
• 5:57
  Speaker 4: they're not going to include me investigation. They're going to
• 6:01
  Speaker 4: not mention I was there. And the purpose of that,
• 6:04
  Speaker 4: they said, was because I was too new for a start,
• 6:06
  Speaker 4: and they didn't want me involved in the investigation or
• 6:09
  Speaker 4: the coroner's court and all those other things, and being
• 6:12
  Speaker 4: green like it was my first aim at Padou. I agreed,
• 6:17
  Speaker 4: not knowing the repercussions of that, of course, so my
• 6:22
  Speaker 4: name was sort of eliminated from the investigation of that period.
• 6:26
  Speaker 5: So strange, and I think from memory, the body was
• 6:32
  Speaker 5: removed from the bathroom and then I think laid outside somewhere,
• 6:38
  Speaker 5: and that was pretty much the evidence that was then
• 6:42
  Speaker 5: collected that she was found in that place.
• 6:44
  Speaker 4: So your evidence was erased. Yeah, well there's no evidence
• 6:49
  Speaker 4: because they never asked me anything. The body was removed
• 6:52
  Speaker 4: from the toilet and moved to the office area. That's
• 6:57
  Speaker 4: when one of the detectives come and got me and
• 6:59
  Speaker 4: said you should come in and have a look at this.
• 7:01
  Speaker 4: And when they dragged her out, she was fully closed,
• 7:06
  Speaker 4: remembering that everyone's tried to point this a Glover.
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: John Wayne Glove of the Granny Killer.
• 7:11
  Speaker 4: That's right now. Florence brought us was fully dressed when
• 7:15
  Speaker 4: they removed her from the toilet. The reason I know
• 7:18
  Speaker 4: that is is they had to do with rape test
• 7:20
  Speaker 4: kit or sexual assault kit is what they ever called it.
• 7:23
  Speaker 4: The doctor performed that test in the office and we
• 7:27
  Speaker 4: were present, and I was present there just after she
• 7:30
  Speaker 4: was pulled out, So no one's ever said this, all
• 7:34
  Speaker 4: the police that were there, there is no record of
• 7:37
  Speaker 4: her being pulled out of that toilet fully dressed.
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: So the critical evidence that should have been the starting
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: point was just overlooked. And it's that excuse that you
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: were too young, green or whatever and they wanted to
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: keep you out of the investigation just doesn't hold water,
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: even in the tone of the times.
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: That's an odd decision.
• 7:56
  Speaker 4: Well, it brings me back. I'm pretty angry about this
• 8:00
  Speaker 4: for the simple reason is I found out years later,
• 8:03
  Speaker 4: and no one's ever bought this up. Where did the
• 8:06
  Speaker 4: money go? And was in the handbag? It was present
• 8:09
  Speaker 4: when we found.
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: It, right, So you saw the money? Yeah?
• 8:12
  Speaker 4: And how much was it, by the way, eight thousand dollars.
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: Eight thousand dollars and the sergeant counted it, and then
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: what happened to it?
• 8:21
  Speaker 4: I have no idea, and I wonder, Look, I don't
• 8:25
  Speaker 4: know what happened. I'm just assuming here, and you probably
• 8:28
  Speaker 4: shouldn't make assumptions. Assumptions have repercussions. But I don't know.
• 8:35
  Speaker 4: When I walked upstairs, the sergeant said there was eight
• 8:38
  Speaker 4: thousand dollars in the handbag. There it is, akay, keep
• 8:41
  Speaker 4: looking around? Why? Why?
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: And that's critically.
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: If you'd given a statement, it would have been expected
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: that you would have put that conversation with the sergeant
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: in that statement, and it would have made it into evidence. Yes,
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: And because you never gave a statement, that's a critical thing.
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: Because one of the motives for Florence's murder was always robbery.
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: And if eight thousand dollars was left there in full view,
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: and that certainly contradicts.
• 9:15
  Speaker 4: That it wasn't a robbery. It was a personal murder.
• 9:20
  Speaker 4: You could tell by the way she was, the injuries
• 9:23
  Speaker 4: and the treatment, and the way these people went around
• 9:25
  Speaker 4: and knowing that the money was there. I've always said
• 9:28
  Speaker 4: the same thing, it was not a robbery. If it
• 9:31
  Speaker 4: was a robbery, they would have taken everything they could.
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, and you talk about the injuries inflicted, and we
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: go back to that piece of timber that you saw
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: when you were searching with the red substance that was
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: almost certainly Florence's blood, and.
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: That had been used.
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: I think it was a piece of timber that was
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: used to mix paints and dyes for the wallpaper samples
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: that she was making.
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: That's right, and that apparently was used to bludgeon her.
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: And she was hit up to ten times and nose
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: was broken, eye socket fractured. This was, as you say, say,
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: a very personal murder, somebody with a lot of anger.
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: And after that they've stuffed the toilet bowl with fabric,
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: filled it up, and then shoved her head into it
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: to try to drown her. This is someone who's trying
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: to teach her a very final and fatal lesson.
• 10:23
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's right. And I wonder if the investigation took
• 10:27
  Speaker 4: the wrong course because of the like of the evidence
• 10:30
  Speaker 4: that I could have supplied, or they relied on what
• 10:32
  Speaker 4: they've seen.
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: Well, indeed, is that how you felt.
• 10:37
  Speaker 4: Look, I didn't know the money was gone until twenty
• 10:40
  Speaker 4: and eighteen when I spoke to you. I hadn't followed
• 10:43
  Speaker 4: the case. My introduction back to this case was in
• 10:46
  Speaker 4: two thousand and six through Catherine Thompson, a screenwriter in Sydney,
• 10:51
  Speaker 4: and Catherine investigated this case for many years and she's
• 10:54
  Speaker 4: got a lot of information. But her and another lady
• 10:57
  Speaker 4: had written a movie about Florence brought us and they
• 11:00
  Speaker 4: were broadcasting it to the drive show host Richard Glover.
• 11:03
  Speaker 4: I think it was I'm not sure thee Yeah, my
• 11:06
  Speaker 4: wife heard the thing on the radio and rang me
• 11:09
  Speaker 4: up at home and said I should ring. And from
• 11:12
  Speaker 4: that I got invited down to the release of this
• 11:14
  Speaker 4: movie and where I met cast and Thompson and Catherine's
• 11:19
  Speaker 4: She still thinks different people killed her. Yeah, she had
• 11:23
  Speaker 4: different views on what everything else was written too. She
• 11:26
  Speaker 4: didn't furl it was all right, And I told Catherine
• 11:29
  Speaker 4: what i'd seen.
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: It certainly wasn't.
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's just, I mean there's theories, and I
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: don't want to cast aspersions on the dead, but there's
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: talk about her foster son as being a possible suspect.
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: This just doesn't seem like a random situation. And the
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: idea of John Wayne Glover, the granny killer, being the
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: suspect It gives me doubts too, because he had been
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: there before and looked at some wallpaper. But otherwise the
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: moo didn't seem to fit him at all.
• 12:05
  Speaker 4: Things. It was quite a difference in them for the
• 12:07
  Speaker 4: fact that she wasn't sexually assaulted. She'll still fully clothed.
• 12:11
  Speaker 4: And we know Glover had been to the factory, so
• 12:14
  Speaker 4: and a lot of other people. I met a lady
• 12:16
  Speaker 4: yesterday and it comes out of the blue that you
• 12:19
  Speaker 4: knew Florence Broadhurst. I'm talking nearly forty nine to fifty
• 12:22
  Speaker 4: years later. So a lot of people had been to
• 12:25
  Speaker 4: that factory, yes, to buy wallpaper, But that doesn't point
• 12:29
  Speaker 4: the finger at him like he may have hinted there
• 12:32
  Speaker 4: were other bodies, which he did, but thema was totally different.
• 12:37
  Speaker 4: She was still dressed. No rape. That was as much
• 12:40
  Speaker 4: as I could tell.
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: That's right, because forming yourself al Detective Dennis O'Toole spent
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: years trying to speak to Glover about a cryptic drawing
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: that he'd made which indicated there might have been up
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: to nine victims in his spree, and that it might
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: have included Florence Broadhurst. But beyond that, I just don't
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: see much evidence to support it. But moreover, I mean,
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: we're not here to solve the murder today, Tony. We're
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: here to talk about its impact on you. And there's
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: a young probationary constable and how you were dealt with
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: and I guess how you were prepared back in those
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: days to deal with situations like this.
• 13:20
  Speaker 4: I spent two years at the police Academy. I've had
• 13:23
  Speaker 4: the fingerprint how worked with these bodies, deceased bodies, So
• 13:27
  Speaker 4: I've had a partial you know, I've seen some gory stuff,
• 13:30
  Speaker 4: let's put it that way. But I wasn't always prepared
• 13:34
  Speaker 4: for it. But we've done jobs because I used to
• 13:36
  Speaker 4: work in fingerprints for a while and we've seen a
• 13:40
  Speaker 4: lot of things there. I don't know. I just can't
• 13:42
  Speaker 4: put why does one action or one incident affect you
• 13:48
  Speaker 4: more on the next one. I can't explain that. And
• 13:52
  Speaker 4: I know many cops have been through more trauma than
• 13:54
  Speaker 4: I have, and they've been managed to deal with it,
• 13:57
  Speaker 4: but they've left the police force and they've got PTSD
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: and they suffer badly from it. But back in those days,
• 14:04
  Speaker 4: there was no support. Look, honestly, I'll turn out. I
• 14:08
  Speaker 4: remember walking out of that factory, seeing the neighbor across
• 14:12
  Speaker 4: the road talking to him. I do not remember anything
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: for a long period after leaving that the murder scene.
• 14:21
  Speaker 4: I don't remember where I went, what I had done.
• 14:24
  Speaker 4: I don't recall anything. It's just a complete blank. It
• 14:29
  Speaker 4: won't go with the details. But yeah, it was. I
• 14:32
  Speaker 4: remember the waking up to the smell of I must
• 14:35
  Speaker 4: have been to the morgue because you can smell it
• 14:37
  Speaker 4: on my clothes, and I've got no memory. Yeah, I
• 14:42
  Speaker 4: know I went to the pub, so I went on
• 14:44
  Speaker 4: a bender, but I don't recall anything. I don't even
• 14:49
  Speaker 4: recall going to work the next day. I don't recall anything.
• 14:52
  Speaker 4: So yeah, so it has an effect on you.
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: It really does, and that those old factory memories, like
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: smelling something is very common in traumatic situations. Those things
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: stay with you, and going to the pub back in
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: those days was also the standard way of dealing with it.
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: Did anybody take you in hands?
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: So listen, TONI, you know it's your first day and
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: you've seen this traumatic thing. Let's go over a beer
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: and chat about it. How did that take place?
• 15:20
  Speaker 4: Nothing don't recall a thing. Nothing, that was just no
• 15:24
  Speaker 4: support whatsoever. And I think That's what the biggest thing was.
• 15:29
  Speaker 4: Is like these days there's a whole lot of different
• 15:33
  Speaker 4: stuff you can do to deal with it. They go
• 15:36
  Speaker 4: into canceling and everything else. None of that. Back in
• 15:38
  Speaker 4: my day, it was expected to just deal with it.
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: You asked that question about why this incident affected you
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: more than others, and this type of thing. But I
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: can't help but think that because your evidence was you raised,
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: and your presence at the scene was you raised, it's
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: almost like it didn't happen. And I think that would
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: have given a really surreal, confounding impression on you, which
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: I think might have been I'm just I'm an amor
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: of the psychologist see the son of a psychiatrist, not
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: a psychiatrist. But I feel like I feel like that
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: might have been the key to this, that if you'd
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: gone through the process of giving your evidence in the court,
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: or at least giving a statement, there might have been
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: some sort of closure or that's a terrible word, but
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: some finality to that experience.
• 16:26
  Speaker 4: I think because there's no finality to it, there was
• 16:29
  Speaker 4: no outcome. From the time I left the police force
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: until two thousand and six, I really never spoke about
• 16:36
  Speaker 4: it to anyone. So many people contacted me after the
• 16:40
  Speaker 4: show we've done together, and they all said saying, why
• 16:43
  Speaker 4: did you ever tell us? Why didn't we ever know?
• 16:46
  Speaker 4: Because there was one of those things you didn't discuss,
• 16:50
  Speaker 4: And I was very surprised by that. There was one
• 16:53
  Speaker 4: chap I used to work for many, many years ago.
• 16:57
  Speaker 4: He's seen the show and he got hold of me
• 17:00
  Speaker 4: and he said, how come I know your name and
• 17:03
  Speaker 4: name and everything because I used to work for him
• 17:05
  Speaker 4: the same thing. How come I never discussed it? I
• 17:08
  Speaker 4: don't know just what it Wasn't those things you go
• 17:10
  Speaker 4: around talking about. I suppose, well it's not.
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: But also I guess in the police force as it
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: was back then, it was a paramilitary organization. The rank
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: structure was key, and you followed orders and you were
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: told mo or less to forget it.
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: Really that's what you tried to do.
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's easy to say it's hard to forget something
• 17:29
  Speaker 4: like that, but yeah, basically that's all it is.
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: And so let's talk about your service after that. How
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: long were you staying at Paddington.
• 17:36
  Speaker 4: For I left it, and I think was in nineteen
• 17:39
  Speaker 4: seventy nine. I got out. What happened was I'd ask
• 17:42
  Speaker 4: for a transfer out of Paddington or where I was
• 17:45
  Speaker 4: back at Waverley. By that I worked at the Supreme Court.
• 17:48
  Speaker 4: In the time I worked at Supreme Court, the Police
• 17:51
  Speaker 4: Commissioner's office, I worked at some other places, you know.
• 17:55
  Speaker 4: I've done a few things when I was in there.
• 17:58
  Speaker 4: But I applied to go to the Highway Patrol, which
• 18:00
  Speaker 4: I was accepted, and so it was probably a good thing,
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: I remember. But the boss a wavely canceled my transfer
• 18:08
  Speaker 4: in the day of old space ago. His excuse was
• 18:12
  Speaker 4: there was no one to replace me. I call bs
• 18:15
  Speaker 4: on that tell him to stick the job and he's bum.
• 18:17
  Speaker 4: Excuse my friends, but I'd had a knock by that stage.
• 18:20
  Speaker 4: That division I could not work in anymore. I could
• 18:23
  Speaker 4: not work with the bosses. I can tell you stories
• 18:27
  Speaker 4: about what they used to get up to.
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: Tell me.
• 18:30
  Speaker 4: Oh, alcohol is a big problem, a big Alcohol is
• 18:33
  Speaker 4: a huge problem in the police force. I remember picking
• 18:36
  Speaker 4: the superintendents up. You used to be their drivers at
• 18:38
  Speaker 4: night time, pick them up from the club and take
• 18:40
  Speaker 4: him I'm drunk. There was a whole pile of other
• 18:42
  Speaker 4: things that they used to get up to. But yeah,
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: any mister, meaning my biogenius stuff was not thing but alcohol.
• 18:51
  Speaker 4: I was told when I joined the police force there
• 18:53
  Speaker 4: were three things that get you into trouble booze, birds
• 18:56
  Speaker 4: and brass, so try and steer clear a whole three.
• 19:03
  Speaker 4: But yeah, I just had enough.
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: What was your background? What was your ambition when you joined?
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: I mean you're a young man.
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: Idealistic, you wanted to be a copper, a good copper,
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: you know. Tell us a bit about your background.
• 19:17
  Speaker 4: I was raised on a farm down there Gunning in
• 19:19
  Speaker 4: New South Wales, down near Golden. Remember I was probably
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: about twelve or thirty when I decided I don't want
• 19:26
  Speaker 4: to join the police force. Don't ask me why. I
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: just wanted to join the police force. And I kept
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: my nase clean everywhere because I wanted to join the
• 19:34
  Speaker 4: police force. I did not want to get into trouble.
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: And I approached a sergeant O'Brien and Gunning one day
• 19:40
  Speaker 4: he had a flat to ice. I went across the
• 19:42
  Speaker 4: old and change it and I said, how do I
• 19:45
  Speaker 4: join the police? He said you're serious and I said yeah,
• 19:48
  Speaker 4: and he organized all the paperwork. Then I get a
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: phone call and he says, you better come in. We've
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: got your application forms and everything done.
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: Went in.
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: Everything played on from there. Then I went in for
• 20:00
  Speaker 4: the interviews. The police are gunning a play called John Duff.
• 20:03
  Speaker 4: Fantastic sergeant. He was a great blake and helping me
• 20:06
  Speaker 4: get through to get the applications done. So yeah, I
• 20:12
  Speaker 4: was rowed straight off the farm where I was in
• 20:14
  Speaker 4: the farm one day and then Redfern Academy the next
• 20:17
  Speaker 4: and going it was.
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: It was a big change.
• 20:20
  Speaker 4: But I remember when I came to Sydney to the
• 20:24
  Speaker 4: Redfern the builded as we had to go and stay
• 20:26
  Speaker 4: with people, and my first place was Bondai Road at
• 20:31
  Speaker 4: Bondai Beach. Missus Green was the old lady and being
• 20:36
  Speaker 4: a country I was even too scared to walk out
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: and outside every night. It was. It was a trauma
• 20:43
  Speaker 4: coming to Sydney by itself. It was like we never
• 20:46
  Speaker 4: came to city from the bush. We might have been
• 20:48
  Speaker 4: up one or two times, but it would have been
• 20:50
  Speaker 4: with family in the outer suburbs. And to be dumped
• 20:54
  Speaker 4: in Red Fern and find your way to Bondi it
• 20:56
  Speaker 4: was me and that was an excursion but we got
• 20:59
  Speaker 4: through it. But it was it was interesting days and yeah,
• 21:04
  Speaker 4: it was a shock to the system. I can tell
• 21:05
  Speaker 4: you and what was your ambition back then in the force.
• 21:08
  Speaker 4: What did you see yourself doing. Well, I've always wanted
• 21:12
  Speaker 4: to be a copper and I've missed it. I did
• 21:15
  Speaker 4: actually try to get back in, but because I had
• 21:17
  Speaker 4: a broken leg when I was in the police force
• 21:20
  Speaker 4: from motorbike praying years later, I tried to get back
• 21:22
  Speaker 4: in and you wouldn't believe it. The recruiting sergeant was
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: one of my old academy lecturers and he knew about
• 21:29
  Speaker 4: my injuries, so he done me a favor. He done
• 21:34
  Speaker 4: me a favor.
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: Tell me why did you decide to come back in.
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: You had this traumatic experience. It wasn't what you thought
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: it was. It was very disappointing, traumatic, and yet you
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: wanted to get back in. But I must say, I
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: think you still sound like a copper to me, Tony,
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: you're a natural born copper.
• 21:51
  Speaker 4: Well, funny enough, I did have family. There were coppers
• 21:54
  Speaker 4: back in the days, but it was something I always
• 21:57
  Speaker 4: wanted to be. It was a goal of mine to
• 21:58
  Speaker 4: be a copper. I don't know why it was, but
• 22:02
  Speaker 4: at the time I tried to get back in, I
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: was self employed, had my own business, and I was
• 22:07
  Speaker 4: more mature at running my own business. I honestly think
• 22:11
  Speaker 4: joining inn Ese cadet getting sworn in at nineteen may
• 22:14
  Speaker 4: have been too young. There's a lot of successful people
• 22:17
  Speaker 4: to come through with tradees first, then go in and
• 22:20
  Speaker 4: they do well. And I do believe that you've got
• 22:23
  Speaker 4: to have the maturity to do so. You've got to
• 22:25
  Speaker 4: have some life experience, like my life experience is on
• 22:28
  Speaker 4: a farm and go on the school like I did
• 22:31
  Speaker 4: work a lot on the farm, but to be taken
• 22:33
  Speaker 4: straight from the farm to the city, like a lot
• 22:35
  Speaker 4: of other guys were. We adapt differently, but I think
• 22:39
  Speaker 4: maturity was one of the things that probably may have
• 22:42
  Speaker 4: helped better. At the time I did reapply was yeah,
• 22:46
  Speaker 4: I did have a lot of broken bones, but you know,
• 22:50
  Speaker 4: I was running my own business. I was more mature.
• 22:52
  Speaker 4: I had a wife and a child. It was an
• 22:55
  Speaker 4: unfinished thing in my life that I left. I left
• 22:58
  Speaker 4: in the heat of the moment where he signed in
• 23:00
  Speaker 4: response to how the management ran, and I was one
• 23:05
  Speaker 4: thing I regretted as the way I resigned, But to
• 23:08
  Speaker 4: say that I still remember after making that decision and
• 23:13
  Speaker 4: writing my resummation out at the desk of Waverly that morning.
• 23:17
  Speaker 4: The film like the whole world was lifted off my shoulders.
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: The stress and the anger and everything left my body.
• 23:23
  Speaker 4: Also thing at Penrof at the time. I'm driving back
• 23:25
  Speaker 4: to Penoff that day and I just felt, Wow, what
• 23:29
  Speaker 4: a release. It was just undescribable rate.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: It's a really important point there.
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: And I've done some podcasts with police, as you've probably
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: known your South far As in Victoria, and I often
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: ask people you got him when you're a bit older,
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: and this is I guess these days, this is happening
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: much more. The people aren't being taken at eighteen or nineteen.
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: They're told to get a bit of life experience. And
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: I look at that situation in Bondai Beach. You mentioned
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: Bonda before on your early duties down there, and you
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: look at what they had to deal with with that
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: horrible incident on Bondai.
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: Beach where the Jewish people were attacked.
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: They're going to have to deal with the consequences of
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: that day for the rest of their careers. And you
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: have to have, I think, in life to deal with trauma.
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: Some background of I was talking to a crook yesterday actually,
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: and he was saying he'd never learned to self soothe
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: it didn't have the experience in life to have that
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: self talk to get over the difficulties in his life,
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: which led to him being a heroin adtict and being
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: a violent criminal and spending half his life in jail.
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: I think it's the same for police. If you haven't
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: got that experience and maturity, you may struggle. You know,
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: you don't have the background and wherewithal to get through
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: these moments.
• 24:44
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I totally agree with that, and I think this
• 24:48
  Speaker 4: is my first daid at Paddington for goodness sake, and
• 24:51
  Speaker 4: I walked straight into that. You know, I a complas
• 24:54
  Speaker 4: hadn't seen things like that for years, you know, like
• 24:57
  Speaker 4: the things I've seen. Okay, I suppose everyone's experience is different,
• 25:01
  Speaker 4: everyone's life and service is different, and you can appreciate
• 25:04
  Speaker 4: that they're there to do a job very unappreciated by
• 25:09
  Speaker 4: the public and it's a tough job.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: It's a tough job.
• 25:13
  Speaker 4: But I think going into any of the services, the emails,
• 25:16
  Speaker 4: the police of fibrigade, any of those services, you've got
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: to sort of expect this is what you're going to face.
• 25:23
  Speaker 4: I know a lot of ex police when they left,
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: they've gone to the fieries or the ambulance.
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: Right, they're sort of in a way institutionalized towards those things, because,
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: I mean, police ironically call it the job, but I
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: think it's a calling, and I think it's going to
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: have an impact on you. And I think some of
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: the recruiting methods these days try to portray it as
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: a career as a job, and they put all the
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: positives there and the overtime and the good salaries and
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: this type of thing, and they try to minimize what
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: we're talking about today that it will have an impact
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: on you. You're going to have some duco knocked off
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: you sooner or later, and that is going to be
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: a feature of your service. Very few people get through
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: there is without something. Yours was horrific and traumatic virtually
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: from day one. How long before it started to I
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: guess for you to realize you weren't quite right.
• 26:18
  Speaker 4: It didn't take long. I tried to ignore it for
• 26:22
  Speaker 4: a long time, but it just builds all the actions
• 26:27
  Speaker 4: and the things you see.
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: Build and build and build and build.
• 26:31
  Speaker 4: And it was only months before I was getting yeah,
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: I'm really sick of this. But I tried to persevere
• 26:38
  Speaker 4: as long as I could Look, don't keep me wrong.
• 26:41
  Speaker 4: I had a lot of enjoyable things in the police
• 26:43
  Speaker 4: force happened. I've seen a lot of positive things, and
• 26:48
  Speaker 4: I met lifelong friends. Some experiences I still laugh about.
• 26:52
  Speaker 4: Some you're shocked about. Some You're grateful you had the
• 26:55
  Speaker 4: opportunity to see. It was a mixed bag, so to speak.
• 26:59
  Speaker 4: There was a couple of incidents that really spoiled it.
• 27:04
  Speaker 4: It wasn't a job so much. It was a management
• 27:06
  Speaker 4: that got me in there. It was the way you
• 27:08
  Speaker 4: treated I loved a job. I hated the bosses, but
• 27:13
  Speaker 4: that's another story. But it was months, probably months I
• 27:17
  Speaker 4: started because there was no support and you're trying to
• 27:21
  Speaker 4: find a way to raise that memory from your head,
• 27:26
  Speaker 4: and my way was alcohol, And I realized, you know,
• 27:31
  Speaker 4: sometime later I was turned into an alcoholic by trying
• 27:34
  Speaker 4: to erase keep used to dream about this stuff. You
• 27:38
  Speaker 4: can smell the stuff. And to this day, I still
• 27:42
  Speaker 4: think about it a fair bit.
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: What did I miss?
• 27:46
  Speaker 4: Why wasn't it solved? You know, there's still a lot
• 27:49
  Speaker 4: of questions un answered, and I still think about it
• 27:51
  Speaker 4: to this day. But back then I was just turning
• 27:55
  Speaker 4: to alcohol to try and just escape the memories and
• 28:01
  Speaker 4: that was the wrong way to go. Maybe I should
• 28:03
  Speaker 4: have thought treatment, for a psychologist to whatever. But who's
• 28:06
  Speaker 4: going to tell you, you know, or help you decide
• 28:10
  Speaker 4: all that, and unfortunately there was no one.
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: And let's face it, also, you were encouraged not to
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: show weakness, not to show the impacts. Were you encouraged
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: to button it down and get back on the job.
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: And as you say, there were positive experiences, and in
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: some senses, I mean I regret that I didn't maybe
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: join the police force because as a crime journalist, I've
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: been an observer on some amazing things and told these
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: amazing stories. But to be someone who actually solves crimes,
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: who brings resolution to families, or might you know, see
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: people in their worst moments and do something positive for them,
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: it's a tremendous privilege and something that on a positive way,
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: will stay with you as well. Do you have other
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: memories that, I guess counterbalance that day with Florence Broadhurst?
• 28:59
  Speaker 4: Oh, I have a lot of memories. A lot of
• 29:01
  Speaker 4: funny things happen in the police forces. Things you see
• 29:05
  Speaker 4: every day and you know, how the hell did they
• 29:07
  Speaker 4: these people breath? But I was working with one guy
• 29:12
  Speaker 4: a chap called Donnie Hennerson. Don and his wife dianairplane
• 29:14
  Speaker 4: crash at Mascot many many years ago. Don used to
• 29:18
  Speaker 4: work in the drug squad and I'm sure he could
• 29:21
  Speaker 4: smell drugs on the house from one hundred yards away.
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: I remember one night we're patrolling down through the backstreets
• 29:27
  Speaker 4: of Armbondai Junction and I'm driving on and Don says
• 29:32
  Speaker 4: sat mrk in front, just follow him for a bit
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: and we'll pull him over. Sure as ex, this place's
• 29:37
  Speaker 4: got drugs right through his car, like I had, I
• 29:40
  Speaker 4: get involved in a big drug bush. I'm sure it
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: was a funny guy, Don, but tragically he passed away.
• 29:46
  Speaker 4: Another night we were at Paddickton, we had Willara. We
• 29:49
  Speaker 4: got called to a high rise one night, Ocean Street
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: I think it was, and there was people trapped in
• 29:57
  Speaker 4: the lift. So we wandered down and there's a police
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: car parked out the front with the doors open. Someone
• 30:04
  Speaker 4: must be here already. It was the police trapped in
• 30:06
  Speaker 4: the lift.
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: I do worrits.
• 30:12
  Speaker 4: It were so funny it was. I remember another night, well, yeah,
• 30:17
  Speaker 4: one busy night. This is not long before I left.
• 30:20
  Speaker 4: We'd been to a it wasn't a bomb threat, and
• 30:24
  Speaker 4: I think we ended up with the guy in the
• 30:26
  Speaker 4: back of the truck and on the way back to
• 30:28
  Speaker 4: the police station, we're going to call to a robbery.
• 30:32
  Speaker 4: It was a Paddington bowling club, so I remember the sarge.
• 30:36
  Speaker 4: I was swift. He was a funny guy and I
• 30:38
  Speaker 4: used to play for Balmain. We rock up to this
• 30:41
  Speaker 4: Paddington bowling club and nine times out of ten you
• 30:45
  Speaker 4: rock up to these things, there's no one there. We
• 30:47
  Speaker 4: stumbling through the doors and there's a robbery in place.
• 30:50
  Speaker 4: God jeeze. I wasn't sure where we were, but I
• 30:55
  Speaker 4: remember drawing the pistol and pointed this bloke and saying
• 30:58
  Speaker 4: drop it. I thought they were going to go us.
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: I was, yeah, that adrenaline pumping occurrence. That one was
• 31:08
  Speaker 4: like it turned out all good, but that's what you're
• 31:12
  Speaker 4: there for. How many people do That's it?
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: I was going to say, it's all about adrenaline because
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: in the positive and the negative, Because when you start
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: thinking about that scene at Florence Broadhurst, the adrenaline gets going,
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: the heart rate increases, and it's like you're back in
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: that scene again and adrenaline can keep us safe. It
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: gives you the fight or flight response, as in when
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: you're confronting the robbery suspect or it just becomes a deadening,
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: toxic influence in your body. It's funny because I give
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: you another Victorian police officer, Nael Fraser, recently, and people
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: talk about PTSD as a disorder, she said, post traumatic
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: stress injury.
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: That's how it should be known.
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: That's what you suffered on that day and it should
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: have been treated as an injury rather than something, Oh,
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: Tony's having a bit of strife and PTSD. I think
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: the understanding of it is changing. And I think the
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: work that you've done with police cadets of that era
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: and they don't have police cadets anymore. I think that's
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: what's drawn you to that because you see in those
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: guys of a similar age.
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: To you, you see a lot of your experience in them.
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: Tell us about how you got involved with those guys.
• 32:25
  Speaker 4: There was a guy called Charlie di Agostino next cup.
• 32:28
  Speaker 4: We're in the same class as a cadet, and he
• 32:31
  Speaker 4: and another chap started the New soth Wales Police Cadets
• 32:34
  Speaker 4: social group on Facebook. I think through networks we all
• 32:40
  Speaker 4: became aware of it and joined it years ago when
• 32:42
  Speaker 4: the group started up. You know, talking to Charlie and
• 32:46
  Speaker 4: there's a whole bunch of people involved in this. My
• 32:49
  Speaker 4: role is hosting coffee crunches every month from the Gold
• 32:52
  Speaker 4: Coast tweet Ed's area for ex cops. It's encouraging people.
• 32:57
  Speaker 4: They come together every month, they talk about their job
• 33:00
  Speaker 4: to good all the bad discussions everything and every month
• 33:04
  Speaker 4: Cope crunch is different, different people turning up. We have
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: the regulars turn up, but it's just people supporting other people.
• 33:13
  Speaker 4: But the US files Police social group they're Reunited, have
• 33:17
  Speaker 4: six hundred people together now so far ex cadets.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: But what they do is they.
• 33:23
  Speaker 4: Help people with PTSD. They assisting people getting treatment through
• 33:28
  Speaker 4: facilities that are known to them. They raise funds for
• 33:33
  Speaker 4: people to get help. Last year I think he said
• 33:36
  Speaker 4: there was forty eight different events hosted for ex cadets
• 33:39
  Speaker 4: and cops and that's fantastic. That's right up the East
• 33:43
  Speaker 4: Case of Australia. But it's bringing next cops together so
• 33:46
  Speaker 4: they could talk about their problems, medical problems, getting a
• 33:50
  Speaker 4: help for PTSD, helping with There's some cases that have
• 33:54
  Speaker 4: been very successful in court claiming pensions from the new
• 33:58
  Speaker 4: files police force. I won't go two death in those,
• 34:01
  Speaker 4: but some of those cases have been very successful, people
• 34:05
  Speaker 4: getting pensions, And like, I might talk about the things
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: that I went through, but I've heard stories from other
• 34:11
  Speaker 4: people who are in a group, non exponets, just cops
• 34:15
  Speaker 4: and the things that they've suffered. Yeah, I think I
• 34:18
  Speaker 4: think to myself, my life is easy. You know, what
• 34:22
  Speaker 4: I went through may affect me, but I think I
• 34:26
  Speaker 4: had an easy run. I think I'm lucky.
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know, everyone carries their own burden, Tony,
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: and I think this attitude of comparing and saying, well,
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: what I went through was less relevant or less significant
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: than others.
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: I don't think it helps your recovery. I think you've
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: got to judge on your circumstance. And yeah, I agree
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: to deal with the lost spirits.
• 34:49
  Speaker 4: Yeah, but you know, I see other people the way
• 34:52
  Speaker 4: they've hurt, the way they're affected by Look, everyone when
• 34:56
  Speaker 4: you talk to has positives about the police force. They
• 34:59
  Speaker 4: have their positives. It's the negative things about when you're
• 35:03
  Speaker 4: injured or you need to go off mental illness. They're
• 35:07
  Speaker 4: treated badly by the police force, every one of them.
• 35:10
  Speaker 4: I've had to fight for pension increases, will fight for
• 35:12
  Speaker 4: pensions working for the government different areas in different times.
• 35:17
  Speaker 4: They're not there to help you, they're there for themselves,
• 35:21
  Speaker 4: and you've got to fight for everything you can get.
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's tremendous.
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: You're still serving the community by serving the people that
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: serve the community, and I think that's tremendous. Do you
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: think this is a kind of happy ending for you
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: In a sense, it's not quite the end outcome, look,
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: but a happy outcome to your story. What you're doing now.
• 35:44
  Speaker 4: Look like an enjoyment out of helping other people, regardless
• 35:47
  Speaker 4: of their ex Police are not family and friends will
• 35:50
  Speaker 4: verify that. But if I can help people in any way,
• 35:53
  Speaker 4: I'm happy to put my hand up. But you know
• 35:55
  Speaker 4: you're going to remember in the Cadets Association you so
• 35:58
  Speaker 4: well as police can. Edit says, there are a lot
• 36:01
  Speaker 4: of people doing more than I am. But it's it's
• 36:05
  Speaker 4: great to be a part of that association. Honestly, you
• 36:08
  Speaker 4: see how those people help in a particular plague. He
• 36:11
  Speaker 4: puts so many hours a week into helping people, and
• 36:14
  Speaker 4: it's just I'm proud to be a part of them.
• 36:17
  Speaker 4: And did a little bit idea. It's fantastic.
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: And how have you gone about resolving your own injury
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: from that day?
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: Have you had some treatment?
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: Now?
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: I mean I know you kept it button down for
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: many many years, didn't seek any treatment. Did you end
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: up speaking to some people?
• 36:35
  Speaker 4: No, never spoke to anyone about it. It's just dealt
• 36:40
  Speaker 4: with it by myself. Look, the biggest relief, and I
• 36:43
  Speaker 4: think that when we spoke back in twenty eighteen for
• 36:47
  Speaker 4: the first time about this matter, I think that was
• 36:49
  Speaker 4: the biggest help I ever had. Just getting it off
• 36:53
  Speaker 4: my chest and telling my story, that was the biggest
• 36:56
  Speaker 4: thing it ever helped me. So which I thank you
• 37:00
  Speaker 4: for that, because honestly, to tell your own stories and
• 37:03
  Speaker 4: get it out there and out there in the open forum,
• 37:06
  Speaker 4: so it was. It was fantastic.
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: Oh's the pleasure because as I say, that memory and
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: your role in that day had been erased, it must
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: have been absolutely maddening. And one thing I should ask
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: you is subsequent telling that story for the first time,
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: have police ever approached you. I know there's been a
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: review since that show that's Australian Crime Stories and Telling.
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: I think it still shows from time to time on
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: Telling nine. As anybody from New South Wales's police or
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: the coroner approached you about giving your evidence.
• 37:35
  Speaker 4: No, one never been approached by the police force.
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 37:38
  Speaker 4: When Catherine Thompson and I started on this journey some
• 37:41
  Speaker 4: years ago, I actually rang Unsolved Homicide to ask them
• 37:47
  Speaker 4: about reopening the case. And that's as far as it went. Yeah,
• 37:52
  Speaker 4: never heard from anyone.
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: Astounding, astounding. I see this sometimes with the cold cases.
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: They you know, they get there and listen to the
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: other thing was the file was lost? I mean well,
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: and that certain didn't help the outcome. Yeah, they went
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: missing from Paddicton Police station. I believe now how I
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: went missing on it.
• 38:11
  Speaker 4: Peter O'Toole came across that years later when he went
• 38:15
  Speaker 4: out there to investigate the case.
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: Tool.
• 38:20
  Speaker 4: I remember when Catherine Thompson and I are working on it.
• 38:22
  Speaker 4: I approached the New South Wales Police Force to track
• 38:25
  Speaker 4: down the coroners reports, every bit of evidence, and I
• 38:31
  Speaker 4: was told it went to some archives out in Western Sydney.
• 38:36
  Speaker 4: Contacted the archives. Nothing could not find a thing. After
• 38:40
  Speaker 4: I went through every source in the police force to
• 38:42
  Speaker 4: try and track down some evidence or something relating to
• 38:46
  Speaker 4: that murder, there was nothing on record. Nothing was ever found.
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the reality of some of these old cases.
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: By the way, when all these detectives converge on a
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: suburban station in a task force situation to investigate a murder,
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: if it doesn't get resolved, sometimes the exhibits stayed in
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: the station until some and goes what the fuck's this
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: and throws it all out or sends it somewhere else,
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: And it may well be in the system, but it's
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: difficult to find. It's like those archaeologists who go to
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: the museums and actually excavate the files of these old
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: museums and the universities and they find remarkable things.
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: And I think this is the same with police forces.
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: So you would hope, Tony, that part of your final
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: recovery is someone to come and talk to you about this,
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: take your evidence, and actually weigh it up for its
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: actual forensic value.
• 39:34
  Speaker 4: Well, you'd think they would do that if they're going
• 39:36
  Speaker 4: to open a cold case, which I believe they did,
• 39:39
  Speaker 4: and I'm not sure if it was still active or not,
• 39:41
  Speaker 4: but I did believe they did open another cold case
• 39:44
  Speaker 4: or an investigation, which we've never heard nothing about. The
• 39:48
  Speaker 4: other thing, too, is there must be somewhere of it
• 39:50
  Speaker 4: in somewhere there's got to be you just don't throw
• 39:54
  Speaker 4: everything out. I'm amazed. I'm just all surprised and shocked. Yeah,
• 39:58
  Speaker 4: that we couldn't find any evidence.
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, oh well, Tony hopefully out of this discussion and
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: maybe we have to keep knocking on the door a
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: few more times. But one of these discussions may prompt
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: an enterprising young detective who's got the file to talk
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: to you, and I'll certainly direct them to you. But
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: I really want to thank you for your service, your
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: friendship actually as well, and your work on behalf of
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: other people such as yourself.
• 40:26
  Speaker 4: It's a pleasure. Thanks Adam.
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: That's Tony Russell, former New South Wales police constable who
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: was on the scene the day that Florence Broadhurst was found.
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: And as you've heard, is evidence has never made it
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: into the file. How significant was that? Did it change
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: the course of the investigation? I think it did, But
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: there's still time to bring closure to this one. You
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: wonder who else is out there with information about Florence
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: and other possible suspects. Does it just eventually diminished to
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: nothing this investigation when everyone passes away. There's still a
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: chance now, So if you have information about this case.
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: Or you might be a police officer or other essential
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: service worker who has had issues in the past with PTSD,
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: or maybe hasn't recognized it yet. Maybe use this conversation
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: as a spur to talk to somebody. Get involved in
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: the groups that Tony's mentioned, whether it's police cadets or
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: other Facebook groups and things. Talk to people it's not
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: too late, or even seek some assistance. And I'm a
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: bit shocked that Tony hasn't, but I'll keep bothering him
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: about that. But anyway, it's been a pleasure to talk
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: to Tony today. And if you've got information about a crime,
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: you can always call Crime Stoppers one hundred, triple three,
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: triple zero. If you don't trust the compas some people don't,
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: if you can send me an email Adam Shanner, writer
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: at gmail dot com, and I'll do my best to
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: see that the information gets into the right hands. Might
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: end up on the podcast as well, so be prepared
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: for that. Thank you for listening. This has been Real
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: Crime with Adam shanned.
• 42:15
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• 42:18
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• 42:21
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• 42:24
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• 42:28
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