Latest / Beyond the Facade with Choose Recovery Services and Blueprint Institute / 67: What Real Recovery Looks Like to Your Partner

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67: What Real Recovery Looks Like to Your Partner · Beyond the Facade with Choose Recovery Services and Blueprint Institute

0:00
Hey everybody, so I got a question for you.
0:02
What does healing look like for a betrayed partner when her
0:05
husband's in recovery? OK.
0:07
And I'm saying husband and then genderizing here for a minute
0:09
because what I have, who I have here today is Izzy Williams.
0:12
She wanted, she's one of our coaches that choose recovery
0:14
services and we're going to dive into that.
0:20
Welcome to Beyond the Facade podcast.
0:22
I'm your host, Luke Gordon, and I'm thrilled to have you join me
0:25
in the space today. What we're going to be doing is
0:26
diving deep into the trials and triumphs and truths of seeking
0:30
authenticity. Becoming your true self isn't
0:33
about a single action or a moment.
0:35
It's a relentless pursuit, a commitment to self that reveals
0:38
the rich connection and meaning that our life has to offer.
0:41
So whether this is your first time tuning in or you're a
0:44
regular listener, know this. What you're building here goes
0:47
beyond a conversation. You're here to challenge, to
0:50
change, and to celebrate the incredible journey of becoming
0:53
your authentic self. Because when you dare to show up
0:55
fully, the rewards are immeasurable.
0:58
So welcome to Beyond the Facade. Let's get started.
1:02
I'm excited to introduce Izzy to you.
1:04
Izzy's one of our newest coaches.
1:06
She's been around for a minute. But Izzy, why don't we have you
1:09
introduce yourself? Then I'll say a couple cool
1:10
things about you, OK? I'm Izzy, obviously.
1:14
I'm from England. Unmistakable accent.
1:16
Yeah. It's not fake, that's real.
1:19
It's not fake, it's. Real put on.
1:21
Sometimes I feel like I fish out water, but I love the state.
1:23
It's been living here since 2015.
1:26
Started my coaching business four years ago in England, Came
1:31
back here, we had a short stint back in England from 2021 to
1:35
2024. We came back here last year and
1:38
started coaching here. And have I've really gone into
1:41
my niche of betrayal trauma recovery for women and my heart
1:47
is also to reach betrayed men. I know there's not a lot of
1:51
resources yet out there for them and there's not a lot of focus
1:55
on them. So reach them too.
1:57
And for couples seeking recovery and restoration in their
2:00
marriages, that's really what gets me really excited to be
2:04
able to take part in those journeys and actually see
2:10
healing, growth, incredible emotional development, personal
2:14
development, coming out of crisis, coming out of
2:16
brokenness, which is conversely what we doubt will ever happen.
2:20
But actually with a, with the right coaching and the right
2:23
work, the deep work, it happens all the time.
2:26
So that's really my passion, to be part of that.
2:29
Yeah. Did you like pick this work?
2:31
Is this something that you were, how much of this did you pick it
2:34
versus it pick you? How much?
2:36
Oh, that's such a good question, Luke.
2:38
I would say definitely pick me. And I, What I've learnt from
2:41
that is that when you don't necessarily choose your giftings
2:47
or you don't even recognise you have giftings in a certain area,
2:50
when those things pick you, you can really excel and grow in
2:53
yourself and find parts of you and abilities you had that you
2:57
didn't know you had. So it definitely picked me
2:59
through my own personal journey and my own personal experience.
3:02
And I'm, I'm on a, I'm on a new trajectory in a sense.
3:07
I wouldn't have picked to be a betrayal coach.
3:10
And I honestly believe that I'm not sure yet who would pick that
3:15
intentionally as a career unless they'd had some kind of reason
3:19
to go down that road, that route.
3:22
Yeah. I'm excited that you're here,
3:24
Izzy. You bring a special spirit slash
3:27
energy to this work. I feel like you're a coach, but
3:30
it feels more like you're like a therapist when you talk to you.
3:33
You have this energy that you bring, which is like, Oh yeah,
3:36
she knows what she's talking about.
3:38
So I'm excited for people not to add any pressure to this thing
3:40
at all. But I'm excited for people get
3:41
to know you and hear you. And I don't know, because here's
3:44
the deal that choose your carvery services.
3:46
The deal is as you've had to have been impacted and not just
3:50
got not just been impacted by betrayal, charmer or compulsive
3:54
behaviour, but also have an education and an understanding
3:57
of what it actually is to support people.
3:59
So I'm just glad to have you here, Izzy.
4:02
All right, you ready? Been to it.
4:03
Yeah, thanks, Luke. I'm honoured to be here.
4:05
Thanks. Absolutely.
4:06
OK, so let's just acknowledge some reality here for a second.
4:10
Again, we're going to genderize a little bit today because
4:12
Izzy's used to working with women specifically in betrayal
4:15
trauma, right, Izzy? And I'm used to working with men
4:18
in betrayal trauma, I've admit. Excuse me, men that experience
4:21
compulsive sexual behavior and what we call them individuals
4:24
seeking recovery. And what reality is, is a lot of
4:28
men just don't realize how their recovery behaviors, what their
4:33
recovery looks like and how it impacts their partner.
4:35
So that's what we're going to be talking about today.
4:37
So let's deconstruct some of the lies that I think I believed and
4:43
felt maybe kind of hopeless around.
4:46
And then, Izzy, you can give us your take on what this is all
4:48
about. So if we're going to deconstruct
4:50
them, let's just come up with a few of them here.
4:52
So nothing I do helps, doesn't matter.
4:54
Like nothing I do is right. In fact, let's just do these one
4:57
at a time. So nothing I do helps.
4:59
So it seems like I keep trying things over and over again, like
5:03
whether I go see a therapist or whether I go to a group or
5:06
whether I attempt to have empathy and it doesn't seem to
5:09
like really help at all or I am doing those things and I'm still
5:13
not getting it right. It doesn't seem like it's making
5:15
anything better. And or the other one is is I'm
5:18
really I don't it's not like I have any power to change
5:22
anything here. So I'm powerless to change.
5:24
So we can talk about reframes of this, Izzy, but what comes up
5:27
for you thinking about this? I think what comes up is these
5:33
are disempowering beliefs, and I think one of the huge catalysts
5:39
in the the man's recovery is going to be what he believes,
5:45
what he believes he can be, who he believes he can be.
5:49
So I think that's why they're so important to uproot those lies
5:52
and really get the truth in there.
5:55
So that's what comes to me is like those lies are dangerous.
5:58
They pose a threat, a direct threat in my opinion, to the man
6:02
fully recovering, which will inevitably and directly affect
6:07
his wife's recovery and the whole recovery of the entire
6:10
relationship. So this is a really crucial
6:12
thing, I think the thing that the lies that that individuals
6:16
seeking recovery believe. And I really am very passionate
6:20
about helping men to see that you can uproot those lies and
6:25
it's going to be huge breakthrough and power in that.
6:29
OK, so if those are lies, like nothing I do helps, nothing I do
6:32
is right, I'm powerless to change anything.
6:35
So those aren't truths. What are they Like if he if he's
6:39
sitting there going nothing I do helps, nothing I do is right and
6:43
I'm powerless here. What's What do you believe truth
6:45
is? Yeah, because they seem like
6:47
true, don't they? So for example, yeah, seem like
6:49
truth because when the husband's, if the husband's
6:53
trying really hard, like you said, he's going to meetings,
6:55
he's engaging with his group, he's doing his hard work, He's
6:58
12 steps, whatever he's committed to and engaged in, but
7:02
he doesn't see any impactful or meaningful change in behaviour
7:08
or attitude or feelings from his wife, then naturally he's going
7:11
to think, well, nothing I'm doing is helping.
7:14
It's it's, I'm, it's not making any impact.
7:15
It's not bringing any change. My wife's not happy.
7:18
She doesn't seem to be healing. So the trust not there.
7:21
So it can be really demotivating.
7:23
But I think the truth is when the man focuses on his recovery,
7:28
what am I recovering first and foremost here?
7:30
Well, I'm recovering myself. I'm recovering myself 1st.
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And in me recovering myself, I'm going to help my wife to heal as
7:38
she works on recovering herself. And anything I do for me is
7:43
going to impact my wife, is going to impact the US.
7:46
The truth is everything you do helps.
7:49
Everything you do in terms of being committed to your
7:52
recovery, to being committed to your groups in the details, the
7:56
committing to the details, everything you do helps.
7:59
So it's quite simple in that just because you don't see the
8:04
result right now, just kind of hang in there, hang in there,
8:07
push through, keep going. Because what your wife is really
8:11
what she's looking for, the betrayed spouse.
8:13
What she's seeking is are you doing what you said you would
8:17
do? Have you stopped, perhaps over
8:20
promising and under delivering? Are you actually doing the
8:24
recovery, doing the work, applying the tools?
8:26
And if you are, then she'll see that she will death will she?
8:29
Will she say, does she? I'm going to.
8:31
I'm going to pretend I'm going to play down here for a second.
8:33
Will she? Does she notice?
8:36
I would say that would depend on what phase of trauma she might
8:40
be in. So obviously we know Luke, we
8:42
outsat, we do the MPTM model, the multidimensional partner
8:46
trauma model. And it depends if a wife or
8:48
betrayed spouse is in extreme trauma that first stage, she may
8:52
or may not see the guy putting in effort.
8:55
It depends. Sometimes she's not able to see
8:59
is it it does that make sense? I don't know if.
9:01
You. Yeah.
9:01
It doesn't make sense. I think I'm think I'm going to.
9:03
I think I'm going to lean into something here for a second.
9:06
Why don't I pretend to be a disgruntled, frustrated guy that
9:10
thinks he's been in recovery for a long time speaking to you?
9:13
Is that OK? Can we do that?
9:14
Yeah, go for it. OK, all right.
9:17
And I'm going to use these words again.
9:18
So Izzy, I just, I feel like I've been doing this for a while
9:21
and I don't know if anything helps.
9:22
It doesn't feel like I'm doing it right because she only has
9:26
she only has feedback For me that's like of different things
9:29
I need to do and more than I need to do.
9:31
So I don't know. What do you have to say to that?
9:35
He's disgruntled and fed up. Yeah, I think, but it's the part
9:39
where often I think the the addict or the the better
9:42
terminology is the individual seeking recovery, I would say to
9:46
a degree kind of hits a wall. So I put in a lot of effort or
9:50
what I feel is a lot of effort and I'm really not getting the
9:53
responses that I want or that I expect or that I hope maybe, I
9:56
don't know whether maybe he might be set with entitlement
9:58
still that he needs to work with that maybe there's some more
10:01
humility needs to come. But I think speaking from the
10:04
betrayed wife's perspective, she is still sat with incredible
10:08
pain and what is in the husband's or the individual
10:12
seeking recovery's past is very much in her present, right?
10:16
So what might be a place in the recovery for him where he's
10:21
putting in a load of effort and he feels like he's changed a
10:23
lot. She's not maybe seeing that and
10:26
feeling that because she's still suffering from the impact,
10:31
relatively new knowledge, could be disclosure, could be
10:34
anything. So I think does that.
10:36
Am I speaking to that? Yeah, and tell me what you think
10:39
about this. When I hear a guy talking about,
10:41
excuse me, I know I'm genderizing because I'm
10:43
typically working with males as the betray, as the betraying
10:46
partner, the individual seeking recovery.
10:48
So I think about this. The ones that are just
10:49
frustrated, they're like, why? It's not like it makes a
10:51
difference. Everything.
10:52
Nothing I'm doing is helping. I've been doing this forever.
10:54
Nothing I do is right. I'm noticing their level of
10:56
motivation, what they're motivated by, which is their
10:59
partner to acknowledge. So you talked, you were speaking
11:04
briefly before about what our wives actually look for.
11:07
And what I've noticed is the guys that weaponize that
11:10
information, which is what are they looking for is that's why
11:13
I'm doing it. It tends to create this
11:16
overwhelming draw and urge towards needing to be validated
11:19
with that certain type of thing rather than doing it from a
11:22
values based place. Like I don't need my partner to
11:24
respond a certain way. I don't need her to acknowledge
11:27
that because I'm going to do it whether she needs to or not.
11:30
Easily said. Hard to do, right?
11:32
Yeah, excellent. Point though.
11:34
It's no, I just think I don't know is he what what your
11:36
experience like rather betrayed partner, but that's a lot of
11:39
pressure that he's putting on her, like a lot of pressure when
11:42
he's noticing how she's not responding in a way that he
11:46
wants to be responded to. I don't know, does that is that
11:49
clear? What do you think about that?
11:51
I think what you're touching on, Luke is again is pivotal.
11:58
It's a fundamental principle of a successful recovery for a man,
12:02
I think if he can practice or get this idea of health,
12:06
healthy, detachment that healthy.
12:09
Detachment. Healthy detachment from his
12:11
wife. Yes, I want to restore the
12:14
relationship. Yes, I want to earn her trust
12:16
back. Yes, I want to save what we had
12:19
our relationship. But at the same time, in order
12:21
to do that, there has to be that healthy detachment that says I
12:25
can't work to earn her approval because then everything I'm
12:29
doing is for her. And that keeps me in a place of
12:32
stuckness and of dependency on the other person's.
12:36
Like you said, emotional validation.
12:39
And that's really something that would be a huge factor that
12:42
played into their addiction in, in the 1st place.
12:44
Dependency on someone else to validate on someone else to meet
12:48
the need. I think there's so much really
12:50
good work that the individual seeking recovery can do to own
12:55
themselves, stabilize themselves, like, nurture
12:58
themselves, reparent themselves, like, does that make sense?
13:01
So that's really what you're alluding to, Luke.
13:03
And I love it. I think it's such a key piece
13:06
for the man in recoveries. I don't, I can't be doing this
13:10
for my wife. I can't, I have to do this for
13:12
me. So like you said, whether she
13:14
gives her approval or not, am I prepared to do the work?
13:19
Am I? Is this why I'm getting
13:21
frustrated and disgruntled? Because who am I doing this for?
13:24
So I don't. Really important.
13:26
I don't want to take this down a rabble hole, but I heard this
13:28
the other day. I learned about this and I think
13:30
it was way oversimplified and I was talking a lot about it and I
13:33
don't know if she really liked it that much, but let me bring
13:34
it up anyway. So there are two reasons people
13:37
are motivated, OK? Two reasons.
13:39
If you simplify it, oversimplify it, it's because they want to do
13:42
it or they are forced to do it. They have to do it.
13:46
And I'm like way, way oversimplified.
13:48
But I thought about this and I think about the guys in recovery
13:50
originally. They show up to not lose their
13:52
families originally, they show up to because they got caught
13:57
and they don't want to lose that relationship.
13:59
And it seems like the guys end up in recovery, just end up
14:01
starting to become drawn and now have an acquired taste for
14:03
healthy. And then Izzy, I know you were
14:07
getting starting to get into what do wives, what do they
14:09
actually look for? But what's interesting is what
14:12
they actually look for men can weaponize this information and
14:16
be able to say, OK, now I know what she wants.
14:18
Now I have the formula, now I can get everything to work out
14:21
OK. But it's still not going to be,
14:22
it's still going to be useless information unless it's from a
14:24
values based place. Because until he wants the same
14:29
things that she wants, but it has to come from inside of him.
14:33
It's there was going to be a lack of consistency of
14:35
frustration because it's not done from a values to internal
14:39
intrinsically but placed place based place.
14:42
Right. And I think what you're speaking
14:44
to you there, Luke, is when the individual seeking recovery
14:49
actually internalises his recovery process, right?
14:53
It doesn't. It stops at some point what we
14:56
want and what he should want and what we're gunning for him to
14:59
get there right is that he moves from a place of doing it to keep
15:03
his family, doing it for external reasons.
15:06
And it, his recovery then becomes about him, about who he
15:11
wants to be. It really takes on a different
15:13
nature. It becomes who he is rather than
15:16
something he just does. And.
15:18
What does he internalize? He internalizes his own worth,
15:23
his own sense of like value. And I don't know, is he if this
15:27
is painful for the betrayed partner, knowing that like
15:30
that's something that he lacks his own sense of value and
15:33
worth. It's like, you know, and he's so
15:36
busy people pleasing, but do you mind come knowing that this
15:40
could technically be weaponized as far as you could hear this
15:43
formula because I want to drive back to it.
15:46
You could hear this formula of different of what wives are
15:48
looking for in recovery. And then as easy as you share
15:51
with us what wives are looking for.
15:53
Let's just notice as you're listening to this from a from an
15:57
audience perspective, how this can be internalized and why I
16:01
would do it for me, or why it would be happening because of my
16:05
own value or why I would be doing it to make my partner OK
16:08
with me. You just notice that.
16:10
Would you mind telling us what those things are that they look
16:12
for? Yeah, sure.
16:14
I mean, that's a lot. That's three really good points.
16:17
You've spoken to Luke. I think when there's no trust,
16:21
it's really almost impossible for a wife or a partner to
16:28
believe anything or believe what they believe, what she sees, let
16:33
alone believe what she's told. So really what she's looking
16:36
for, I think to be able to decipher that his recovery is
16:40
genuine and coming from a really genuine place and not just that
16:43
weaponized place of that you spoke of Luke that, oh, got this
16:47
formula figured out. If I just do that, go through
16:50
the motions, then hopefully it'll work and produce the
16:51
results that I'm looking for. So I think the individual
16:55
seeking recovery has to be prepared to shelve that.
16:57
In fact, don't even shelve that, just bin that just throwing that
17:01
right in the trash. That thinking that's thinking
17:03
that has to die in, in one sense because it's counterproductive
17:07
and it's actually going to hijack the whole recovery.
17:10
But I I can see how men operate in that often times in the
17:13
beginning of their recovery. So I think what wives are really
17:15
looking for is, yes, honesty, yes, a changed man, yes,
17:20
integrity. But I think that comes through
17:23
consistency, comes through doing repeated actions, going to your
17:28
meetings, not missing them, showing up, being transparent,
17:32
as in talking about, OK, this is really difficult, this meeting
17:36
today. And I didn't want to go and I
17:37
hated it for the first half of the time I was there.
17:40
But then when I actually got into it and heard some really
17:42
good things, I actually thought, yeah, I really related with that
17:45
and it resonated with me. So I think the transparency, the
17:48
willingness to be vulnerable because in all the hiding and
17:52
the addiction, that's the complete opposite to what
17:54
they've been and who they've been and where they've lived.
17:56
So accountability is a really important skill that the wife
18:01
needs to see or the partner needs to see them practising.
18:04
Who am I accountable to? Am I going to my coach and
18:06
telling him of my struggles? Am I going to my guys in my
18:09
group and being open and vulnerable and telling the
18:12
truth? Am I do?
18:13
Am I going to my 12 step programme and putting the tools
18:16
into action and the that emotional engagement is So what
18:20
the wife, the partner, the betrayed partner craves.
18:23
I believe she is so craves for him to show up emotionally
18:26
because that's where he's been absent for such a long time in
18:30
addiction. Is that does that speak of?
18:33
Yeah. We're going to take a quick
18:35
break for a moment. I want to let you know of some
18:37
things that we have coming up at Chewji Cauvery Services.
18:41
What I'm going to talk about today is not for everybody.
18:44
It's for those of you who are in a place where you have done a
18:48
lot of work and you've done a lot of healing and you're not
18:53
really like heavily involved in the B trial trauma and recovery
18:56
world in the ways that you once were.
18:59
And you are somebody who is a goal oriented and you want to
19:04
heal and you want to move forward and you're ready to
19:08
expand in the next areas of your life.
19:11
And you have these pieces of you that have done so much healing
19:15
and so much growing, yet there's still this other part of you
19:19
that's like longing for more. There's this other part of you
19:23
that is ready to really explore, like what's next?
19:28
Who am I? Where am I headed?
19:30
What do I want? And and really unlocking the
19:35
woman within. Now, the reason I say that this
19:38
is not for somebody who's new in recovery is because this
19:43
intensive that we're doing this worthy by design is truly for a
19:48
unique woman. It's for a woman who really is
19:53
in tune with her emotions. She's self reflective, she's
19:57
looking into her soul. She believes in energy and
20:02
healing and emotions and the value of those.
20:06
But you're not sure how to step into that next level of your own
20:11
growth, your own development. This is what Worthy by Design is
20:15
for. And I will tell you, I am so
20:19
excited for this intensive. It's not B trial trauma focused.
20:23
It's there will be women there who have gone through B trial
20:26
trauma and done their healing. And they'll be other women who
20:29
have just grown and developed and are ready for this type of
20:32
healing as well. And you're going to get to spend
20:36
three nights and four days with me myself, Hallie Roderick, who
20:41
is one of our coaches, Kelly Johnson, who she partners with
20:46
us here at Choose Recovery. She does what's called Soul Soma
20:50
healing. And I don't know what other way
20:54
to put it other than she has an absolute gift for touching into
20:58
people's emotions and helping them release, but also educating
21:02
and learning and teaching. And so I am so excited to
21:06
partner with her. And then we also have Kelsey
21:09
Red, who is a former therapist. She is a yoga certified
21:13
instructor and she is amazing. If this is speaking to your
21:18
soul, if you feel that calling, it's going to be, it's going to
21:25
be soul healing. The location we're doing it at
21:29
is a beautiful, huge home that we have rented that has a
21:35
private property with a pond and a heated pool and a walking
21:40
pass. It's tucked up in the mountains
21:42
and so you were going to get time for relaxation, time for
21:47
yourself, time for connection, time for growth and healing.
21:51
It is going to be truly unique. This is the only one of these
21:55
intensives that we are doing. So this is not one of like, oh,
21:59
I hope I can catch it next time. This is the one that we are
22:04
doing. So again, if you are feeling
22:06
called to this, if you are interested in it, reach out For
22:10
more information. You can always jump in and do a
22:13
free consult with Hallie and learn more about it.
22:17
If you hear this and you think that is exactly what I want, I
22:21
need this and I'm not sure how I'm going to pay for it, choose
22:24
Recovery services for all of our intensives does offer
22:27
scholarship opportunities. So you can always put in an
22:30
application and see if that's something that you could get
22:33
some financial support to do that as well.
22:35
So I would love to see you at Worthy by Design if this applies
22:41
to you. You especially are Worthy by
22:43
Design, and it will help you learn how to really tap into
22:47
that. Well, let's get back to our
22:49
episode. I I want to go back and ask you
22:52
about a couple of these because I, I hear men being frustrated
22:56
with some of these. Let's go to this consistency.
22:59
I noticed that they're often going like some of the
23:02
frustrated going like I feel like she needs me to be perfect.
23:06
Izzy and Luke are talking about consistency, but I think my
23:08
partner is asking for perfection.
23:10
So that's not true, but it feels like that so.
23:14
One of those lies. What is what is she?
23:16
What is she referring to when she says consistency?
23:19
Does she eat perfection? No, but I can definitely, again,
23:23
going back to the individual seeking recovery's viewpoint, I
23:26
totally get it. To him, it does look like
23:28
perfection because he's come from a deep, dark place that
23:31
he's trying to get out of. So, you know, any hard work I
23:35
think can look like I'm expected to be perfect and get it right
23:39
the whole time. There's no grace for my mistakes
23:41
or, and it's not that there's not grace for him not getting it
23:45
right. Sometimes it's not that there's
23:47
not grace from the betrayed partner.
23:49
It's just that she's she's in too much pain often then there's
23:51
too much wounding for her to have any space to give any
23:54
grace. She needs to see that
23:56
consistent. I am going to go to my meetings.
24:00
Come, you know, by hook or by crook.
24:02
I think that's a. Cook, right Crook.
24:04
I think that's a good British expression.
24:05
Then by hook or by crook, like what may I am going to, I'm
24:10
committed. I think commitment and
24:12
consistency can go together perhaps in this.
24:14
And I just want to pull out. That's not perfection.
24:17
That's not perfect. No, no way.
24:19
Because what it is, is it's AI. Notice what I can tell what my
24:24
partner actually values, what they're trying to show up with,
24:26
what they're actually consistency is.
24:29
I can tell they value this and this is important to them and
24:33
that they're making. I want to stop using the word
24:36
consistent and try to find out the language to get there.
24:38
This is something that they have committed to and that they're
24:42
engaging and they're not ebbing and flowing with it.
24:45
Yeah, I just think what it does is it comes back to that.
24:48
Whose values are that we or is he trying to meet?
24:51
Is it his? Is it what he's valuing or is it
24:53
something that he's trying to check a box for her?
24:56
And because I think about that is if she calls out him of
25:01
you're not being, you know, you haven't gone to your meetings
25:03
lately, he's going to have a shame response.
25:06
A big, big shame response if his motivation is to make her feel
25:11
safe through going to meetings. But if it's something that's his
25:15
value and it's not hers, it's he's not going to show up as
25:18
loud or as big when she asks about it or talks about it,
25:22
because it's going to be something that matters to him
25:23
too. Yeah.
25:25
So the consistency is really based upon I, I'm going to do
25:29
things, I'm going to follow through them on things that are
25:31
important to me, like things that are just important to you,
25:34
they're important to me. Yeah, Yeah.
25:36
That's, that's piece to be said, Luke.
25:38
I agree. I think that the consistency
25:41
there has to be grace in the beginning.
25:43
That's my belief. And that's not, you know, I, I
25:45
totally, obviously my heart is an advocate for the betrayed
25:49
partner that when she does not see consistency right from the
25:52
beginning, it is so hard, so hard, hard it is.
25:55
It's really hard. And I, I love to create a space
25:58
to nurture that, to validate that and that that can't be, it
26:02
can't be avoided. That's the how the betrayed
26:04
partner feels. And I think from the guy's point
26:07
of view, the individual seeking recovery, he needs grace because
26:10
he's trying. He's going to stumble and maybe
26:13
some guys don't. Maybe they can just straight off
26:15
the bat when they get into recovery, can just consistently
26:17
just meet those targets. I believe there are some men
26:20
that can do that. But for the most part, I think
26:23
the individual seeking recovery, it's like wearing a new pair of
26:26
shoes. It's maybe like, I don't know,
26:28
trying to walk in high heels. Maybe that is a really bad
26:32
analogy. I hope that it's not.
26:35
But it's like, you know what I'm saying?
26:36
Like when you put on a new pair of shoes that you haven't walked
26:38
in before, you can't always walk straight first time around.
26:41
You're going to have to just get keep getting practice right.
26:44
So I say that to give the individuals seeking recovery,
26:47
the men hope, you know, that the consistency will show up when
26:52
they really start to honour themselves and actually examine
26:55
their and do some work on examining.
26:57
OK, I haven't been a man that has valued integrity, sexual
27:00
integrity, sexual purity, honesty, I haven't been that
27:04
man, but I want to be and I'm committing to myself that I'm
27:08
going to be. I'm going to do it for me
27:11
because I've never valued me. I've lived in a place that I
27:15
never wanted to live and I've lost so much of myself in there.
27:19
I want to recover and I want to be a man of integrity.
27:22
I actually want to see if I can be a man of integrity and
27:25
honesty. I don't know.
27:27
What do you you see in your men in terms of that?
27:30
I don't know, I hope this doesn't distract from the topic,
27:33
right. And I think I just, I think I
27:35
barely just said this to and maybe a podcast not that long
27:38
ago, but I think about the men that are OK, I'm probably you
27:43
and I are probably going to have to clean this up after I say it.
27:45
OK, just to say it right now because this is I'm going to be
27:49
very clear that I'm that this could be triggering and also
27:53
that this should not be weaponized.
27:55
But my guys that lose battles and have slips when they are
28:03
telling their partners proactively when it happens it
28:06
is less destructive than the ones that hide deeply and then
28:12
come out every once in a while and get caught.
28:16
Neither 1 is good, neither 1 is good.
28:19
But what the betrayed partner at least experiences is some level
28:23
of consistency even in the loss of the battle, even in the slip.
28:27
Again, I'm just going to say it over and over again.
28:29
Not OK behavior. OK, but she is more secure in
28:34
that relationship than the guy that comes across perfect for a
28:38
while, then all of a sudden comes out these slipping.
28:41
So consistency isn't about perfectionism.
28:44
The fact it's they know what to count on.
28:46
It's like you tell them something and they know that I
28:48
can depend on that. And that's what happens with
28:51
kids, children and their their primary caregiver is the most
28:55
destructive caregiver is the one where the child just does not
28:58
know what to expect. Call whatever it is.
29:01
It's the surprises that are the most destructive
29:03
psychologically. Consistency is just that.
29:06
I know what I can count on. When I can, I can predict it,
29:10
yeah. Oh, good.
29:11
That's such a good. You define that so well, Luke,
29:14
and you exemplified it really well.
29:15
Really well. I think.
29:17
Yeah, we definitely speak to the fact that neither of those are
29:20
OK. It's not OK to slip in recovery.
29:23
However, I do believe there has to be a measure of grace for the
29:30
individual seeking recovery And that again, it's don't want to
29:33
get off topic, but that's tension line for a betrayed
29:37
partner, right? Because beginning there's no
29:40
grace. They don't, it's like she feels
29:42
like they don't deserve grace. She's maybe had years of grace.
29:46
That's grace has been abused countless times.
29:49
So I do not want to yeah, it's triggering to it's triggering to
29:53
go down that route. But yeah, I think I, I think the
29:57
consistency it's it is, you're right.
30:00
It's so much more important that if an individual seeking
30:04
recovery does slip or relapse or whatever you want to call it, it
30:08
is so much more powerful and important to go.
30:12
And habitually, hopefully it's not a habit, right.
30:15
But use of language here to make it a commitment.
30:19
Let's word it better, right? Word it better.
30:21
Is he to make it a commitment that if I slip, I will go and do
30:26
this. I will go what?
30:28
It's my guys within 24 hours. I will then talk to my wife
30:31
about it immediately. So then what she'll begin to
30:33
see. Yeah.
30:34
Is he slipped up sexually? Which is really not good, Not
30:38
good at all. Heartbreaking, destroying for
30:41
some women depending on where they are in their trauma
30:43
journey. But at the same time, he's
30:44
telling the truth. He's telling the truth, so.
30:48
Again, we're not looking to slip up, but we're looking for him to
30:51
be telling the truth and cultivating habits in in a
30:54
consistent manner which will help build truth and help
30:57
restore trust. That's it, That's it.
31:00
OK, so let me tie these together because you listed a few.
31:02
Let's just take them and notice how they come in order.
31:05
So what do wives look for? They they're going to look for
31:07
consistency. If they meet with somebody like
31:08
Izzy, they'll talk about what to look for Consistency.
31:11
And a part of that consistency is, is transparency.
31:14
So that's not like, OK, I'm consistent, but I'm also
31:18
transparent about that experience.
31:19
And then the third part of the accountability, I'll take
31:22
responsibility for, for my transparency, for my
31:26
consistency. And then there's also the
31:28
emotional engagement or I'd love that you mentioned before, Izzy,
31:32
which is I'm going to share my feelings.
31:35
And what I mean is I'll be open and I'll be open to your
31:39
feelings. I'm not going to withdraw, I'm
31:40
not going to hide. I'm going to be there.
31:42
And I just want to highlight this part before we move on to
31:45
anything new or what's next, which is The Who initiates this?
31:50
Like one of the most destructive parts, which is not about
31:53
consistency is who's really driving the recovery is a her or
31:57
is a him. And if if she is, that is like a
32:01
parent child dynamic that is really, really painful.
32:05
If she's showing up going, how's your recovery going?
32:07
Or if you had any slips lately or tell me what's going on, what
32:09
are your triggers or have you been going to group?
32:12
That's not consistency. That's not the transparency,
32:14
that's not the accountability. That's not the emotional
32:16
engagement. It has to be initiative has to
32:18
come from him, so 100% such. A good question, Luke.
32:21
Yeah. The husband has to be the driver
32:25
of his recovery. He has to be the driving force.
32:29
He can't be the passenger, because if he's the passenger,
32:33
then it'll be the wife that will end up, she'll either end up
32:36
driving his recovery out of sheer trauma, fear, anxiety,
32:42
hyper vigilance, which again is trauma symptoms, and that's not
32:45
going to help. It's way too much pressure and
32:49
false responsibility laid on her to drive her husband's recovery.
32:52
So the recovery has to be driven by the husband.
32:55
So his goal is to get into the driver's seat of his own
32:59
recovery. And again, that ties back in
33:01
Luke with it being a values driven recovery.
33:04
It's like, why am I doing this? If I'm doing this for me, then
33:07
I'm doing it for me. I'm going to drive it.
33:09
I'm going to be in control. I'm going to be in charge.
33:12
I'm not going to leave it to her.
33:14
I'm not going to put it on her in any way.
33:15
I'm going to own this. So yeah, I love that.
33:19
I love that you bring that up. I think it's, again, it's a
33:22
pivotal, it's a, what do you call it?
33:23
It's like a it's a pillar. That mindset, that thinking is a
33:28
pillar in the individual seeking recoveries, recovery.
33:32
There's got to be a pillar in, in, in their thinking, right?
33:36
Absolutely. Absolutely.
33:38
Any parts of this you think that we should be talking about
33:41
specifically? We haven't already talked about
33:43
I think. One thing I think could be good
33:46
to emphasize Luke is and it's hard.
33:50
This is a hard long road recovery and I'm sure everybody
33:54
on it realizes that. But I think patience slowing
33:58
down, slowing the whole thing down.
34:01
I think in the addictive mind, very often instant results,
34:07
like, you know, if I shape up quickly, if I get this, if I get
34:10
into recovery, will things just quickly get back to normal or,
34:14
you know, she'll improve quickly or she'll get through this
34:16
quickly or get over this. So I think that there has to be
34:20
an understanding to let that kind of thinking go.
34:24
It's a detachment happens to a degree and freedom comes to a
34:30
degree on one level where we accept powerlessness, where the
34:34
individual seeking recovery accept chooses to accept a
34:36
degree of powerlessness in that I don't get to control the
34:39
timeline of this. I don't get to control the time
34:42
frame of this. Like I need to slow down.
34:45
Like everything in trauma for the betrayed partner slows down.
34:47
That's what I tell clients is when when our brains response to
34:52
extremely stressful overwhelming stimuli or event or crisis is
34:56
trauma, which is that's what trauma is effectively everything
35:00
slows down. So we have to slow everything
35:03
down. I think the individual seeking
35:05
recovery must do that. He must slow everything down and
35:08
accept, OK, this is a different pace.
35:11
This isn't going to happen on my timeline.
35:14
Like I'm not going to become the man I want to be on my projected
35:18
time frame. Yeah.
35:20
It's cool. It's cool listening to talk
35:23
because it reminds me of reminds me.
35:25
It sounds like you're talking about like the grief cycle, like
35:28
the bargaining, like no, I just I want to go back from my old
35:30
life. Just everything and I think
35:32
about grief of the loss of that old life.
35:34
There is no going back. There isn't a timeline.
35:37
I'm not in control. I grieving that I thought I was
35:40
in control and I'm not. Whatever it might be, there's it
35:42
just that reminded me of what you're talking about, right?
35:46
We could go down rabbit trails and I know for the sake of time,
35:48
I know we can't Luke, but I mean, I think the control issue
35:51
is another huge thing that we could speak to.
35:53
Like it's scary to to relinquish control because in the addiction
35:57
cycle, they have so much control.
36:01
That's something that's a huge piece for the men to have to
36:05
deal with. And that's not something I can
36:06
really speak to. It's not my, it's not my, it's
36:08
not my place where we did podcast on.
36:10
Hands great. Yeah, I'd love to.
36:13
We actually should, Izzy. We should just podcast on this,
36:16
the illusion of control, because you said they have so much
36:18
control. And I immediately thought, like,
36:20
the illusion of control existing, right?
36:22
But partners are feeling like once they realize what is
36:26
actually going on. Whoa, what is he orchestrating
36:29
over there? I had no idea what's reality.
36:31
That'd be good. It'd be brilliant.
36:33
It'd be it. It would give listeners,
36:36
hopefully some really good insight.
36:37
Yeah, some good awareness and clarity, because really, that's
36:41
what they need. Yeah, we'll definitely do that.
36:43
Y'all Izzy, thank you so much for thanks you so much for
36:46
joining us. Any last words of wisdom or
36:48
anything for listeners just that your.
36:50
Recovery for the individual seeking recovery for the men.
36:54
That is so impactful to your wives.
36:56
It can be so impactful to your wives in such a positive way and
37:01
not to believe that you're powerless.
37:02
That is the biggest lie. There's a beautiful, I don't
37:05
want to go down another rabbit trail, but there's a beautiful
37:07
thing about the masculine energy and I don't want to trigger, you
37:10
know, there's a whole debate around that.
37:12
So I'll be careful with the language that I use.
37:14
However, I believe that the powerlessness that men can feel
37:21
is dangerous. It hijacks their recovery.
37:23
And though they have so much power to internalise the values
37:26
to recover themselves, to become the men they want to be.
37:30
And I think if they can't hear that from a betrayed spouse,
37:33
from their own betrayed spouse, which wouldn't be fair of them
37:36
to expect their betrayed spouse to be able to come up with that,
37:39
then you can hear it from another betrayed spouse that
37:41
there's really good growth up ahead, that there's really good
37:45
potential for healing and restoration.
37:48
You just have to be willing to do the hard graft, love yourself
37:53
in that and commit to it and face the pain.
37:57
Own the stuff that you've done, own the brokenness and do the
38:01
deep work, the inner child work, whatever it takes.
38:04
And we're not looking for perfection, looking for
38:06
excellence. If I can't be perfect and get it
38:08
right every time, I can commit to doing it in excellence to
38:12
trying. If I fall down, I'm just going
38:13
to get up better next time. I'm just going to turn up to my
38:16
meetings. OK, I missed a meeting.
38:17
I'm just going to own it. Sorry, I, I missed it.
38:20
I was being sloppy or whatever, or I just didn't make it.
38:22
But I'm going to go next time. So it's a determination of the
38:24
mind and just that the husband's active recovery journey is the
38:28
strongest indicator that we can fix this.
38:33
It's the strongest indicator to the betrayed partner that we can
38:36
recover. There's hope.
38:37
There's huge hope. So I want them to go away with
38:40
hope, yeah. Thank you.
38:42
I we, I felt that I felt the level of hope that you shared
38:46
there is there's a bunch. We'd be careful how we measure
38:49
things. The bad days can be so hard and
38:51
then don't want the highs to get too high and the lows to get too
38:55
low. Recognize that there there's
38:57
somewhere in the middle and we called out the window of
38:59
tolerance. Anyway, thanks for blessing us
39:01
with your time and energy, Izzy. It's good to have you and we're
39:03
we're going to have you come back.
39:04
Seriously, please come back. I would love to, thanks.
39:07
It's been such a pleasure. Thank you so much.
39:09
Enjoy being with you. Thank you.
39:10
Thank. You men, the mask that you wear
39:14
to protect yourself is the same mask that keeps you from truly
39:17
connecting. So this September 16th to the
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The spots are going to be limited.
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So if you're ready to drop the mask and begin living with
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Looking forward to having you be there if you've been through.
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Betrayal you know it's more than heartbreak.
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It can shake your sense of safety, trust, and even your
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40:39
notes. Hey, thanks for joining us
40:44
today. If this is something that you
40:45
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40:49
So what you can do is go to chooserecoveryservices.com or
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40:55
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Beyond the Facade where we unmask the authentic cell.