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SYSK Selects: How Organ Donation Works · Stuff You Should Know

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: M Hey everybody, it's me Josh and for this week's
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: s Y s K Selects, I've chosen January two thousand
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: ten episode called How Organ Donation Works. We get into
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: the ins and outs of organ donation, that what you
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: can do and what you can't, and we also talk
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: about the black market for organs um, which is something
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: that's been in the news recently. There has been a
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: huge Reuters expose on the secondary organ donation market for
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: profit market, which is worth reading too, especially if this
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: episode floats your boat. So I hope you enjoy How
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: Organ Donation Works. Welcome to Stuff you Should Know from
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: House Stuff Works dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: I'm Josh Lark with me as always as Charles W.
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: Chuck Bryant, who I assume has two functional kidneys. I do,
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: but I would give one up for you, brother. Wow,
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: would you really? Maybe? I think I think that three
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: Chuck as a living donor maybe not? But if I died,
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: then sure you get thanks. Man. What about your liver,
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: because I'm pretty certain I'm gonna need somebody's livers. I
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: don't know that you would want mine either, to be honest.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that'd be like getting Mickey Mantle's liver. I
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: need like a we need a virginal liver, don't. Yeah,
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: so I can just start over again, wash it in vodka.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: So what are we talking about, Josh? We're talking about
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: organ donation, Chuck perfect, which I find absolutely fascinating. UM.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: Back in nineteen fifty four, let me take you back
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: a little bit here, the first successful living human to
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: human organ donation took place. It was a kidney. Yeah,
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: it was a great story. Kidneys actually remained the most
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: commonly donated and UM received organs. But this was actually
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: a couple of twin brothers, one of whom was dying
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: of chronic nephritis. Yeah, Richard and Ronald Herrick. And Richard
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: was the one dying, and Ronald was in good shape, right,
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: and Ronald said, well, you know what, you're my twin brother,
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: and I don't really want you to die young, so
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: I'm going to give you one of my kidneys. And UM.
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: There have been uh some other transplants before that. They
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: didn't work out though, well some of them did, but
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: it wasn't live human to human UM like for example,
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: the first I think the first organ, the first donation
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: or transplant that ever took place was way back in
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: sixteen sixty where they fused part of a dog's skull
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: under human's head and that graft worked. H We have
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: taken testicles from monkeys and successfully in playing them into humans.
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: A pig kidney was successfully transplanted into a human vein transplants, uh,
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: And a lamb kidney was put into a recipient in
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: nineteen twenty three and that person lived for nine days.
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: But nineteen fifty four finds the first time a living
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: person donated an oregan to another living person, and it
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: was successful. And the reason why, they think was because
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: they're twins, there was a very low chance of rejection, right. Yeah.
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: And the story is great because Richard, you know that
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: the dying brother had a moment, a clear moment where
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: he literally, like the day before, said don't do this. Man,
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: get out of here right now. And the brother said, no,
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna give you my kidney like it or not, chump,
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: and he did. And it was a great story. Yeah,
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: And they actually both lived to ripe old ages reproduced,
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: so they fulfilled their destinies humans. And since then, Josh,
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: there have been more than a half a million of
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: these organ transplants performed. Right, We've gotten a lot better
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: at it. Um. As I was rambling off that list
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: of stuff that took place before nineteen fifty four, we
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: have and exponentially better. Uh. In two thousand three, we
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: successfully transplanted a tongue. Yeah, I saw that, which I
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: could use a tongue transplant. A slightly thinner tongue would
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: would do me a lot better. I think you had
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: a fat tongue. Yeah. And do you remember the um,
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: what do we do the face transplant? Huh um. That
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: woman actually remember she got her face from a suicide victim.
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: That was in two thousand five and in two thousand six,
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: so I know it's coming. A cadaver's penis was transplanted
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: onto a living humane and that man gave it back. Yes,
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: and I love The reason they gave was because of uh.
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: It caused psychological problems between the man and his wife,
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: which I can imagine. Let your imagination running with that one. Yeah, yeah,
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: that's just uh. I would say the same thing would
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: happen to my household. So thanks to m A better
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: understanding of how the human body works of blood type,
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: of the development of anti rejection drugs like Chuck said,
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: we've hit about half a million transplant surgery so far. Right,
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: So Chuck actually is hot and heavy, uh to to
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: give out a stat and this is a very special
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: stat because it's actually most likely going to change by
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: the end of the podcast. Yes, these are taking away.
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: These are current stats. If you go to the website
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: u n O s dot org, the United Network for
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: organ Sharing, they actually have up to the minute statistics
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: on who needs what and who's giving what and what
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: operations are being performed. And I didn't realize this, but
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: it's up to the minute because earlier in the day
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: I checked on kidneys and the number actually dropped by
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: three about an hour later on the waiting list, So
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: three people got kidneys in that like half hour span.
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: So I'm just gonna read a couple now and then
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: we'll check back in for fun in twenty minutes and
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: see if that's changed at all. Okay, I'm gonna write
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: this down to Chuck because we'll never remember it. This
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: is the first time we've ever used a laptop in
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: the studio and a pen usually just us in our mouths. Uh. Total, Josh,
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: we got one five hundred and five thousand, two people
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: are waiting for organs, and we'll do kidney because that's
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: the most popular. Eight three thousand and twelve people are
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: waiting for a kidney as of two oh three pm.
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: All right, and we'll check that in twenty minutes and
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: hopefully those numbers have gone down. Yeah, because that will
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: mean that either the people on the waiting list have
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: died or they received a transplant. I guess we could
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: put those two, we could compare against one another, and
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: maker we could surmise for So, Chuck, what are organs? Yeah?
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: I had a feeling you're going to ask me that, Josh,
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: go ahead, No, okay. Organs are systems of cells, Josh
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: and tissues, and they all are in our body for
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: a very specific reason, each one. And what I like
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: about the organs is that they are all over equipped,
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: which is what you're looking for in an organ. You
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: don't want like the heart to be like boy, if
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: it beats one beat less, you're really screwed. So um
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: our art. Actually, a twenty year old's heart beats pumps
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: about ten times more than the amount of blood we need.
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: And uh, we we have this reserve capacity in all
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: of our organs. As young lads and lasses. Right. But
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: as Tom Chief, who you know as my bff who
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: wrote this article, he points out that the corneas, when
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: you talk about eye transplants, they're talking about corneal transplants. Um,
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: they actually don't necessarily deteriorate like all the other organs. Yeah,
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: that's pretty cool. Um, So the corneas of seventy five
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: year old donor are just as good, considering you know,
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: there's not more wear and tear than say a twenty
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: year old. Yeah, you could put a seventy year old
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: person's cornea inside of a young person and there would
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: be no difference. Right. But for organs, they deteriorate with age.
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: Well that's the bad news, right, Um, so eventually you
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: may need one, right, Well, yeah, because what happens is,
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: let's say one organ can deteriorate while the rest of
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: your body remains pretty healthy. That's actually best case scenario,
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: as weird as that sounds, because that means you can
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: just swap that sucker out and you'll be fine again. Right. Well,
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: that that's in a very ideal utopian world. That's exactly
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: what happens. The problem is, there is a lot more
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: people in need of organs than there are organs available
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: right right, there's um a waiting list. Some aren't so bad.
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: I think kidneys go pretty quick, as you're you're talking
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: about earlier. The longest wait I found, um was the
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: old heart lung combo. That median wait time was six
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: point seven years. It's a long time to wait for
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: a heart and a long if you need it. Yeah,
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: a long time because nobody goes I'm probably gonna need
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: a heart and a long combo. Eventually, I'll just put
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: myself on the waiting list. Now you need it, like
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: the moment you go onto that waiting list and you
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: have to wait six point seven years until you get it, right, Yeah,
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: and that's why. Um, the mortality rate while waiting for
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: a heart, which is that's not as bad as I
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: would I would be, like the lungs are, and um,
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: the ever actually is the worst good Yeah, sorry, um.
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: There's two ways you can get organs from a live
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: person or a dead person. Yes, Traditionally we don't take
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: organs like the heart from a live donor because they
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: would be a dead donor. After that, you can take
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: things like uh, the liver pancreas uncommonly, but it can
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: be done a portion of the intestine, um, blood, blood,
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: stem cells, bone, marrow, bones, all and bones. Yeah, which
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: giving up a bone that's really something like, I mean
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: after that, you just kind of have this floppy arm,
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: but somebody else has a bone, you know, I mean,
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: that's pretty nice. You Know. What I thought was interesting
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: about the kidney deal, like why you can give up
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: one kidney and still be okay, is that most of
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: the times when your kidneys are affected, they are both
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: affected at the same time, so it's one's never gonna
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: go down and you'd be like, oh, I wish I
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: still have my healthy kidney because they both would have
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: been unhealthy. And uh, all right, I think we've arrived
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: at the liver Chuck. This is fascinating to me. It
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: is where where should we start? Well, let's just start
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: by saying that the liver can grow. It's like the
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: starfish of oregans. Yeah, it can regenerate itself, which is
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: just freaking amazing. Sure. Um, So, for instance, let's say
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: you wanted to split your liver in half and transplant
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: that into two different people. You could do that. You
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: could and actually, if you're an adult donor, they can
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: cut off a portion, a child sized portion, UH, which
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: is I think the same as like a child sized
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: meal where you get like three chicken nuggets from UH
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: and give it to a kid and chuck, this is
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: so great. It grows along with the kid right to
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: a full size liver once again, but in step with
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: the kid's maturation. Right, that's just mind boggling. Let's say
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: you needed a piece of your liver. Let's say you
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: needed liver replace and I cut half of my liver
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: off and gave it to you. My liver would eventually
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: grow to full size once again. Yeah, if I live
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: that long, so mine would grow and yours would grow.
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: And the cool thing is with the liver, you don't
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: even have to take out the old liver. You can
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: just put in the new one. It's like the best
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: organ on the planet. It really is, and our favorite
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: organ because of the function that it serves. So Chuck,
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: Like I said, you can neither be a dead donor
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: or a living donor. A dead donor can donate anything, right,
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: including your yeah, and your eyes, um, heart, lung, all
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: that stuff that you can't really take from a living donor. Um.
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: But there are some exceptions. If you have HIV or
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: disease causing bacteria in your blood stream or tissue. They're
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: not going to be taking your organs. Um, And if
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: you are a practitioner of the Shinto religion, there's not
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: gonna be a lot of organ donation going on there either, right. Yeah,
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: not only that, but if you are Amish, they might
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: support your donation if there is a certainty relative certainty
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: of success, but they're more reluctant if it's uh less
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: probable of success. Right. And Tom actually mentioned why the
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: Gypsies don't agree with the organ donation. They believe that, um,
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: you need your body for the first year to get
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: around the afterlife. Apparently after that you got it down
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: pat and you don't really need it any longer. Um.
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: But he didn't mention Shinto, but I looked it up. Uh.
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: They believe that the corps is impure. The body becomes
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: impure after death. So would be like, here, take this
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: rotting piece of flesh that will save your life, but
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: you're going to be impure while you live. Interesting, So,
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: as a result in Japan, uh doing donation rates are
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: like really really low like the USA. Yeah, and Jehovah's
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: witnessed we should cover them because we're we always like
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: to talk about them. Uh, they're not opposed to it,
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: but they have one rule which I thought was interesting.
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: You can donate your organ as long as they drain
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: all of the blood out of the organ first before
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: giving to someone else. So I guess we're not big
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: on translusions. I don't think so, that'd be my guess. Yeah, okay, Um,
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: how do you register Chuck? Well, it's pretty easy. Actually
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: in most states, you can do it at the d
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: m V, which I always found interesting. Yeah, you can
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: do it right with there when you're getting your new
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: driver's license. And uh here in Georgia, actually we used
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: to have the one of the highest donor rates, or
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: I should say one of the most expansive donor registries
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: in the country. And the reason was when you went
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: to go get your driver's licenses. I'm sure you remember, Um,
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: they'd knock seven bucks off of your driver's license. I
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: love that. So you were an idiot if you didn't
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: sign up. The problem is that there's not supposed to
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: be any kind of compensation whatsoever for being even though
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: this was legal under state law. Um. The Georgia Organ
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: Procurement organization, which we'll talk about a minute. Um, they
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: were very hesitant to draw from the Georgia donor list
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: because they weren't sure if the person was just looking
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: for the seven bucks off or else if they really
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: wanted to be an organ donor. So actually, the contribution
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: rates were very low in comparison of the size of
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: the registry in Georgia until two thousand five when they stopped.
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: They stopped it, I think to actually give you a
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: T shirt too that says I sold my lungs for
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: seven dollars. That's illegal, and all I got was this
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: lousy T shirt. Yeah. No, under UM law, you can't
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: have any valuable compensation for organ procurement, right what we'll
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: get to that too, the whole black market deal. Okay,
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: So Chuck, if you're a dead donor, how do you donate?
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: There's two ways, right? Uh? Two ways, sure, two ways
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: of death. Brain death and cardiac death. Is that what
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: you mean? Obviously? Cardiac death is um a little trickier
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: because you only have a certain amount of time to
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: get the organs from the body. Brain deaths a lot
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: easier in one sense, because um, there could be is
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: you know, weeks to find a match and to prepare
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: the organ for donation and get it carried out. But
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: there's a wrinkle there. So there's a lot of wrinkles there.
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: Let me let me say something about cardiac death first, right,
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: Um this there are there are no laws really governing
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: organ procurement. It's not a case by case basis, And
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: basically everybody involved in the organ procurement process does their
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: best to walk a very cautious line while harvesting organs
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: to try to save other lives, right, yeah, because there's
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: families involved grieving obviously. Um. With cardiac death, there was
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: a board I think out of Harvard in the late
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: nineties that established a five minute wait time from the
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: cessation of a heartbeat. Right, so, you you take somebody
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: off a life support, wait for the heart to stop beating.
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: Five minutes after and while this this the heart's winding down,
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: you're prepping the patient for surgery. Five minutes after, Uh,
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: somebody pronounces the person dead and they cut them open
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: and take the organs. But in five minutes the heart
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: is useless pretty much at that point. Some of the
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: other organs, like the liver, the kidneys, maybe the lungs
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: can survive that five minutes, but the heart's gone. So
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: if you have a cardiac death, you have a useless heart,
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: even though the heart might have been perfectly healthy. Five
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: minutes again right, So there was this doctor in Colorado
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: that said, you know what, there's no law whatsoever that
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: says I have to wait five minutes. This guy did
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: a lot of research and found in the medical literature
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: the longest duration between the cessation of a heartbeat and
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: the spontaneous regeneration of a heartbeat ever recorded was sixty
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: five seconds. So he started a sixty five second rule,
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: got the pants suit off of them. It was an
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: unsuccessful lawsuit, and now all of a sudden, the president
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: has been set and now there's a sixty second rule
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: out there that some people adhere to. That is how
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: organ procurement has been established in the US. Somebody pushes
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: the envelope, they get sued. They if the cases uh
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: isn't one by the by the plaintiff, then you have
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: a new rule. Isn't that weird? There's like zero guidance
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: for organ procurement except that the person has to be dead.
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: We don't have any real definition for death. Well, that's
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: where brain death gets really really true. Exactly. Take it, Chuck, Well,
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: I don't. I mean, you're the you're the expert here.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: I don't. I can't weigh in morally because I don't
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: know what I think. Really Nah. I mean, I know
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: what I might believe for myself, but I don't know
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: about establishing guidelines for others. But we need them, though,
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: don't we? Yeah? But I don't want to make up
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: those rules, do you know? And apparently the federal government
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: doesn't either. Um. Every once in a while, I think
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: Carter assigned a panel to create a white paper on this,
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: and I guess George Bush did right before he left office,
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: because there was one that came out in two thousand
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: and eight. Either Bush did right before he left office
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: or it was like the first thing Obama did when
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: he came into office. But there was a very recent
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: white paper that came out that said, Okay, here's how
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: we feel about brain death. Right, here's the problem. Back
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: in the fifties, I think we came up with this
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: thing called the ventilator. And with the ventilator, you can
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: keep somebody who for all intents and purposes dead, you
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: can keep their organs functioning. So you're masking death. We
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: have no idea what would happen if that ventilator wasn't there,
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: would the person die? And if the person does die,
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: how long do we have to wait until we say
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: that that person is dead? Right? So the the ventilator
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: made it so we could procure organs more easily in
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: brain death because we can keep them alive. At the
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: same time, it blurred the line between life and death. Well,
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: now they came out with this recommendation that said brain
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: death is disengagement of no the um end of meaningful
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: engagement with the rest of the world, which really widened
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: the scope of who exactly is dead. And so when
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: you have a brain dead patient and you procure their organs,
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: what what you actually do is you have to run
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: them through this battery of tests where you are um
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: shining lights in their pupils. Uh, there's an ice water
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: injection into the ear canal to see if you move
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: toward or away from the stimulus um And there's this
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: battery of tests to establish brain death. And then here's
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: the clincher. They do an apneus test where they take
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: you off the ventilator for two minutes and see what happens,
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: and see what happens. Inevitably, the um, the heartbeat is
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: going to slow down. And then after two minutes they
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: put the ventilator back on. But that two minutes where
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: your brain was starved of oxygen was enough to to
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: create real brain death if you weren't before. Wow, think
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: about that. This is why they call you supplementary research man. Right,
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: that's why that's your superhero. Can you hear like people
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: fast forwarding through to get through this, partners, It's like Josh, Josh, Josh, Josh. Okay,
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: So we have this, we have this new definition of
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: brain death. And when the second apnea test happens and
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: you're declared brain dead, what they anesthetize you, they inject
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: you with anti paralytics. Will you into that hospital room
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: and they harvest your organs, so you actually die from
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: a lack of organs present in your body. So that's
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: that it's a ghoulish matter. And this these people who
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: are in charge of making sure that people donate and
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: keeping the image of organ donation is a gift of
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: life alive, have to battle with this, the fact that
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: it's a very ghoulish process. So who's who's in charge
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: of this stuff, by the way, for what for that
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: whole soap op spiel anytime, buddy, Yes, Josh. That would
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: be called an O p O, which is an organ
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: procurement organization and they are federally designated nonprofits and they
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: are local all over the country. There's usually UM one
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: in the central location of a state and then different
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: satellite office is obviously because you need to be close by.
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: You know, you can't be hopping all over the country
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: to get these organs, although that happens as well. And
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: they basically responsible for awareness, recruitment, evaluation, UM organ removal,
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: and transportation. So they're the people that's standing there with
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: a cooler waiting to drop your organ in there and
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: rush it to the recipient. They're also the people that
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: talk to the family generally. Well. Sure, so anytime somebody dies,
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: you the hospital is legally obligated to notify the organ
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: procurement organization, right and you know this this is a
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: good point to bring this up. If you want to
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: be an organ downer or if you are, you really
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: need to tell your family the stuff, and you should
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: have it all in your living will because things can
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: get a little ugly. UM for instance, let's say you
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: are from a very strict religious background. Maybe your family
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: doesn't want you cut up. They think that would be
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: a bad thing, but you want it. You gotta have that,
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: you know, in paper on paper, in writing, right, you
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: need and if you have a documented um in a
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: lot of cases, even if you if your family is like, no,
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: we don't want to donate the organs, the organ per
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: human organization will say, you know what, ts sorry, he
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: want he or she wanted to be an organ owner.
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: And the last thing you want after you die is
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: for your spouse, let's say, to have to mountain this
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: campaign against your family like a tug of war like that.
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: You gotta have it all spelled out nice. Um. So
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: where are we? The United Network of organ Sharing that's
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: another group. This is where that's where you got the
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: kidney statistics. We're gonna go back on and look at right. Yeah,
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: they're in Richmond, Virginia, and they are responsible for placing
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: donated organs um and maintaining the waiting list like you
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: just said. And they never close No. Seven three sixty five,
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: which is how it should be. Obviously, we should calling
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: them right now to see if they're open now. Let's
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: not do that. I'm sure they're open. And then Chuck,
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: there's the Scientific Registry of Transplant Recipients, right, Yes, the
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: s R t R. And they basically maintain like every
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: amount of data you could possibly want on transplants, right
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: for like policy makers and doctors and drug makers and
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. Yes, And there was one more
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: called the ORGANS sorry, the Organ Procurement and Transplantation Network,
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: and they're they're just another network that matches people with
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: recipients and has waiting list that kind of thing, right,
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: So this is actually a pretty um lean, mean streamlined machine. Yeah,
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: the Procurement and Donation Network. It has to be right, So, Chuck,
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: you were saying like they can't be hopping all over
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: the country, but they have to sometimes. So what happens
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: with like, let's say somebody dies in Sacramento and they
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: have the perfect heart that somebody in Tampa needs. What
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: happens while they will put it into a cooler and
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: fly to uh what was the destination? Tampa? Tampa? They
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: fly to Tampa. Apparently like the hospital in Tampa. Those
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: people will go fly to Sacramento, take possession of it,
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: and then fly it back unless there's somebody in the like, like,
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: let's say somebody in Sacramento needed it and somebody at
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: the Sacramento General Hospital died. That's when that cooler comes in.
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: Which have you seen the one that's at the office.
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: We have an organ transplant cooler. Yeah, it's pretty cool,
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: roxane keeper tab in its. Uh. You know what I
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: thought was really cool is if you were on the
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: organ donation list as a living donor, you are actually
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: given consideration if you need an organ transplant yourself. And
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: they said that they won't like bump you to the
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: top of the list, but they will give that a
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: little bit of extra weight, which I think is that's
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: only right. Did you also see that? Um, if you
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: are a living donor and you usually your insurance company
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: won't raise your rates after that, but move to another
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: insurer change like plans, they'll hit you with a pre
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: existing condition. That's how evil. Seriously you sign up for listening,
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: I will give someone my kidney as a living human
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: and the insurance companies are like, oh, well, you might
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: have to charge a little extra for that. Don't you
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: think we should start publicly executing CEOs of insurance companies?
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: It should be part of the healthcare reform package. Right,
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: of course we don't mean that, right, Thanks for the
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: Ceoh so chuck. When when you're talking about people running
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: around with coolers and all that, it kind of creates
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: this harried pace right in your mind. Um, and that's
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: very much true. You have a very short amount of
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: time for an organ to survive. Remember I said, like
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: even five minutes can kill a heart once it's deprived
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: of oxygen, which it stops beating, right. Um. What happens
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: when you die too, The body undergoes all these huge changes. Um.
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: That happened almost immediately, Like, um, there's this uh, parasympathetic
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: flow of chemicals right um, which is like kind of
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: fight or flight on steroids. So I guess it's a
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: sympathetic flood. Like dopamine levels increase eight hundred percent, epinephrin
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: levels increase, nor EEF levels increase. So all these chemicals
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: that are meant to like either speed you up or
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: slow you down or just flooding fro the body. That's
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: why you have to take the drugs right most times, Well, no,
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: this is when you die. So when they're trying to
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: harvest these organs, they're like trying to get them out
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: of the body before this flood just damages these things
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: I thought you meant as a recipient that would happen. No,
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: that'd be pretty awesome though, to have your dopamine levels
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: raised eight percent, right, But it's not as easy as
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: just throwing the new heart in there either and sewing
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: you up and say good luck with your life. No, no,
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: it's not you. And uh, there's also some expectation that
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: you lead a very healthy life after that. You're not
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: supposed to be drinking or smoking or swearing, and um,
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: you have to stay away from call girls and things
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, you shouldn't get a new liver and
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: then like dive into the vodka bottle. You're you're pretty
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: much signing a contract to become ned Flanders after you
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: get your organ donation. Yeah. Actually, just over Christmas heard
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: of a friend of a friend of a family member
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: that was a candidate for I think a liver transplant
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: and they would not do it because he wouldn't enter
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: um rehab. Really yeah, wow, so that's hardcore. Yeah, that
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: guy's dedicated to the booze, isn't it. Yeah, pretty much. Um,
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: And also you're if you are a recipient, there's some
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: expectation that you pay, like for the lodging and travel
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: expenses of the person who donated. Yeah, it's kind of
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: an unwritten rule from what I understand well and have
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: to be real, you know, it's kind of against the
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: law really well, but it makes sense though, because if
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: you're let's say, you want to donate a kidney to
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: someone that lives across the country and you're spending money
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: off from work and flying out there and putting yourself
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: all right, it's gonna cost you some dough and a kidney. Yes,
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: you'd have to be a really nice person to be
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: an an anonymous Yeah, that'd be cool. All right. So, Chuck,
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: you want to talk about the black market? Yes, the
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: black market does exist. Isn't that crazy? Um? Yeah, but
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: not surprising. No, but it's pretty interesting. Um. It obviously exists, Um,
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: typically outside of the United States, although there have been
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: some cases inside the United States. Usually it's like, and
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: this is what's so said. Usually it's impoverished nations, And
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: what happened is that will be a couple of countries involved.
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: You'll take someone out of a really poor country offered
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: them like five thousand dollars for their kidney, and then
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: the middleman will get, you know, a hundred thousand dollars
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: for that kidney. And you know, it's not like these
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: are done in professional surgical rooms. It's a lot of time.
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: It's it's the back room, if you know what I mean.
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: And that's actually exactly what happened in two thousand three
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: in South Africa. Yeah, they were importing people from uh I,
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: guess the City of God in Brazil. Yeah, slums of Brazil. Yeah,
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: and um giving them five grand for their kidney and
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: then turn around selling it for a hundred k yep.
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: That's nuts, yep. And uh where else did it happen?
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: Villagers in India so that they were getting they weren't
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: getting nearly. They were getting about eight hundred dollars for
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: their organs, which is just unbelievable. And at one time
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: the Israeli organ brokers were obtaining these from Soviet Bloc
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: nations and doing the operations in Turkey. And this one
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: guy made a middleman, made about four million dollars before
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: he was caught, which is not bad harvesting organs, although
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: I imagine being an illegal organ broker is a fairly
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: stressful job. Yeah, and it happens in the US too,
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: although customarily it's um an organ broker and a nefarious
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: funeral director who harvest organs before cremation. Did you know
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: this happened? No? I didn't either, and I saw all
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: the six ft under of course you did. Uh. Did
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: you see the movie Thererista's No, that wasn't very good.
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: That was the the deal there though kids are like
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: captured in the jungle. No, but it was like an
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: Eli Roth movie. It was like hostile, except they were
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: harvesting organs basically instead of just blind torture. Uh. And
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: speaking of that Thereristas. That actually does happen in the world.
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: It's not just old wives tales. Poor Mohammed legend kidney
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: theft does happened. It really does, Mohammed. What do you say?
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: His name was Selim Khan. Yes, he lived in Delhi, India,
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: and he was looking for a day's work and agreed
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: to go to a house under the premise that he
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: would get about four dollars a day for performing uh work.
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: Their construction work. All is on the up and up
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: so far then, he has held at gunpoint for several
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: days along with two other day labors. They were taken
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: to an operating room drugged and they awoke with a
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: horrific pain in their side and minus one kidney. And
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: when they took him to the hospital. When he went
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: to the hospital, he checked him out and he had
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: indeed been down one kidney. Not an urban legend. That
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: really happens, although it makes me wonder if the urban
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: legend gave rise to the actual practice. Oh yeah, you know,
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: maybe so. And Josh, the one US case that was
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: in here was really interesting too. Yes, Michael Master Master Marino.
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: There's an oral surgeon in New York and he opened
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: a company called Biomedical Tissue Services with an embalmer, which
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: should have been a real red flag that he partners
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: up with an embalmer. And this is in the year
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: two thousand, not even that long ago. Actually it was
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: ten years ago. I'm old. Uh. For many years though,
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: they harvested human tissue provided by funeral homes and sold
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: it to research facilities. And one of those bodies belonged
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: to who Alistair Cook Alistair Cook, famous host of Masterpiece Theater.
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: So he was chopped up and given to unwitting well,
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: I don't know about recipients. They did harvest some of
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: his tissue. Yeah, yeah, how about that? It's pretty awesome.
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: So where are we now? We are I think we're
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: at the point where we check those stats. I have
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: them written down here as of two oh three pm.
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: What time is it now? Chuck's got to get out
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: of his h Okay to thirty one. I gotta telling
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: any disappointed if this number hasn't gone down, I think
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: all of our listeners will be too. So we started
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: out Chuck with a total of one five thousand two
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: on the waiting list. What are we at one oh five? Okay,
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: nothing has changed in twenty minutes with the kidney. We
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: are at three thousand twelve. Well, it would be the
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: same because that was the master stat. So the kidney
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: didn't change either. Let's just hope Jerry didn't put a
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: drum roll in anywhere, right. But I will say, though,
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: don't be disappointed, because, like I said earlier this morning,
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: um three people received kidneys that were in searches. Yeah,
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: let's let's like to think the other scenario hand out.
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: Are you a donor? I don't remember I was. At
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: one point in time I was seven bucks off, But um,
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: I think I'm going to go ahead and do it. Yeah,
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: this article inspired me because I'm of the belief that
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: the human body after you die is like worm dirt,
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: So I have no problem with donating my entire body
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: or all my organs, none of that. Yeah. Well, if
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: you want to learn more about oregan donation, you can
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: read Tom Sheeve's article on how stuff Works dot com. UH.
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: You can also check out the UM what is It
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: Chuck the Organ Procurement Network UM for their side of
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: the story. But I think you should also check out
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: the Life Guardian Foundation. They have a very much opposing
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: view of organ donation. So such a controversial topic should
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: probably um get all of the facts before you make
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: the very um important decision of whether or not you're
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: going to be a dead donor. And if you decide
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: that you want to be, like Chuck said, let everybody know,
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: tell everybody, tell strangers on the streets. Just anytime you
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: meet a doctor, go I'm going to be an organ door.
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: And you may want to make the decision with your
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: loved ones as well, sure, even though ultimately it is
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: it is your call. So good luck with being a
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: rag doll in the afterlife, which leads us, of course
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: to listener mill. Yes, Josh, I am going to call
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: this U interesting cleptomania story from Sarah Okay um Hi, Josh,
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: Chuck and Jerry. And she even spelled it correctly. Wow.
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: I think that deserves a T shirt, don't you. Oh?
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: Actually she didn't. Sorry to ours Okay close though. Uh.
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: Here's a story that I always think of when you
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: hear anything about kleptomania. A while ago, I was working
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: in a large independent bookstore that had been a city
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: institution for years. Like any retail establishment, they had experience
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: about ten theft loss a year, nothing too unusual. However,
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: one day in the late eighties, they received a thick,
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: densely written journal which detailed to the day, our moment,
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: weather condition, et cetera, every single book this person ever
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: stole from the bookstory but this guy turned it in. Uh.
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: They showed it to us in sales training. It was
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: written in a cramped hand, all pages front and back,
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: which is really creepy. When you're writing on the front
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: and back, you're either really green or you're like a
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: serial killer. That's what I think. Uh. Sometimes a clipping
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: or a picture from one of the stolen books is
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: taped to it. So of course the bookstore said, huh,
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: maybe we should prosecute since they confessed basically to stealing
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: over a period of twenty years, adding up to thousands
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: of dollars. Whose recognis They contacted the people that returned address,
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: and it turned out the person who wrote in was
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: a son or daughter the very prominent local family, active
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: in politics and big charities and the like, the kind
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: of family they named Wings of Hospitals after hot sarahs
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: So of course they didn't want their good name drafted
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: the mud and apparently settled out of court for an
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: undisclosed Some money can do that. I guess that journal
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: was something to behold though, So um, that's what Sarah says.
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: That is definitely a c. That's awesome. Yeah. Cool. Well,
• 36:41
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