Latest / The Permission Slip / S2 | E14 Michele Phillips
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- S2 • E14 Phillips === Matt Kosterman: Hi, this is Matt Kosterman, and we're back with another episode of The Permission Slip. Today, I'm here with Michelle Phillips. Matt Kosterman: Michelle is coming to us from the East Coast in the beautiful Hamptons. Michelle is an exceptional corporate trainer and executive coach and an author who's been doing this amazing consciousness woo-woo work, and what did you say? You're the, the bridge from the, Michele Phillips: Metaphysics to the boardroom. Yeah, the yoga mat, the yoga mat to the boardroom or something like that. Matt Kosterman: years. Michele Phillips: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Michelle. It's great to have you. Michele Phillips: It's really fun to be here. Thanks, Matt Matt Kosterman: Yeah, you bet. So talk to me, how did you get into this? You said you, you, you, you, we, in our little brief conversation, you're all about the natural high. Is it al- has this always been you? Did you go through a, a transformation? Did you have the, Michele Phillips: I mean, how many, how many awakenings do we wanna discuss? But since a child, I've always had the propensity to just understand that we're connected. It was something I couldn't articulate then, but I can articulate now. And from an early age, I was the peacekeeper. I was the connector. I was the one that didn't understand why we can't all get along, you know? Michele Phillips: Can't we all... Even, I remember in high school, like, why can't all the worlds, like, you know, this country has this thing, and this... Why can't we just figure it out? Why do we have to fight? So I've always been a harmony seeker and keeper and, um... And it wasn't till probably my late 20s where I had my first awakening, and I thought, "Oh my gosh, this is a topic I could really talk about and create." Michele Phillips: I didn't know I was creating a career at the time, but that's exactly what happened. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, and was, what did it look, what did the awakening look like? Did it just a, a greater awareness Michele Phillips: Books. You know, Matt Kosterman: Okay Michele Phillips: I was being led. I didn't know I was being led. So, um, one of my, um, first mentors bo- slash boss gave me a book, and then one of my first clients gave me a book, and I was getting these books like Many Lives, Many Masters, and Seth, and Ramtha, and all these corporate people were handing me these books. Michele Phillips: And Matt Kosterman: It's Seth, really, from Michele Phillips: y- yeah, and I was like, "What am... Why? Don't these people know I don't have time to read? I'm a corporate busy person." And the more I read, the more I was like, "Whoa, whoa." You know, it just kept expanding what... You know, I was brought up in a, you know, in a religion. I always say I was brought up in a... to have a religion, a sports team, a political party. Michele Phillips: You know, you're brought up into this. You're indoctrinated, and these books were expanding my brain so much that the more I learned it, the more I had to share it. It was too good to keep. So that's the... And I, I, to really just briefly, I g-... I was in my master's degree at Fordham for behavioral organizational development, Matt Kosterman: Okay Michele Phillips: I gave a presentation called Leading With a Heart. Michele Phillips: I wasn't even 30, I don't think, and this executive said to me, "Michelle, I want you to come teach this to my executives. I want you to give a full-day workshop." I didn't even have a full-day workshop, but I ran home, and I wrote a full-day workshop that just came from me. It came through me, Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Michele Phillips: that's how I got into this back in the day Matt Kosterman: Beautiful. Amazing. Amazing. I, one of my big clients, they, sh- the CEO has a big powwow in Florida every year, and they brought in a consultant similarly, and he, he said, "For 25 years or 30 years, I've been doing this work," and he said, "The one thing..." And, and he, he said, "When we look at all the data and we wanna move people, we wanna move clients from, from customers from this one and two to four and five or whatever," he said, the end of the day, it's love, and it's all about people lo- they, they... Matt Kosterman: It, it, what works is when people love their job, when they love their comp- their clients, when the clients love the product. Like, it's love." He's like, "And I've been ignoring this and trying to, you know, trying to put..." Like, we can't talk, it's a four-letter word. We can't say love. Michele Phillips: Exactly. Nobody says, "I wanna grow up and do spreadsheets and, you know, PowerPoints." That's not our purpose Matt Kosterman: I think my father may have. Michele Phillips: So yeah, it's like we... And I say love, uh, I work in corporations and I, I'm always, I always use the word love, and I always say I want it to be normalized. It shouldn't be something that we, you know, put on the back burner and not something that we talk about Matt Kosterman: Well, it's, it's... I remember that, that old Looney Tunes with the, the, the, the sheepdog and the w- and the wolf, and they would come, and they would clock in in the morning, and then they'd go beat the shit out of each other, right? And then, and then they'd come, and they'd clock, you know, "Night, Sam." "Night, Bob." And that's how it sometimes it feels in the corporate world. Like, you have to clock in, and you become a different person, but it doesn't have to be this. Michele Phillips: Which is why we're so disconnected, which has really been the evolution of my work, is to help people reconnect. You know, a lot of times people say to me, "There's something missing from my life." And I say to them, "You're missing from your life." Matt Kosterman: Yeah, so Michele Phillips: You know? Matt Kosterman: that. So how do you, so how do you help them to connect, and what are they connecting with? Michele Phillips: Yeah, so my first, my first book came out, was written about habits and the s- the research behind positive psychology, that optimistic people had different ha- they had different coping skills than pessimistic people. And, you know, Martin Seligman, Dr. Martin Seligman out of the University of Pennsylvania, all his research in learned optimism was that optimism can be learned. Michele Phillips: There are things that positive, optimistic people do that anyone can incorporate if they want. Matt Kosterman: Ja Michele Phillips: That book came out in 2014, and then I found what people would say to me was, "Michelle, I was doing really good for four months, six months," you know, whatever, "and then I stopped." And we- this level of perfectionism that we hold ourselves to was killing everybody's momentum. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Michele Phillips: So I started saying, "If you do something three times a week, it's a habit." Simple. And then that led me to energy. You know, our, our thoughts, our emotions, where we focus, all of that is either giving us energy or depleting our energy, and we don't need more time. We need more energy. You know what to do. You know that apples are better for you than Oreos or... Michele Phillips: But sometimes, uh, we're so feeling so depleted and disconnected that we take that easy, you know, that, I don't know, the road to hell is paved with good intentions is what's coming to my mind. Matt Kosterman: sure. Michele Phillips: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Well, and yeah, interesting, you know, we... arguable, argued that, you know, we're born as blank slates and the pessimism is what's trained into us because it's what... it's out there. It's what... It's a, it's the vibration. It's what... There's so much of it, and so that's what's I, I feel like that's what's learned, and so it's like, like, it's learning the optimism, but it's also letting go of the negative, of the, of, Michele Phillips: And I think it's, I think we're taught to be fearful. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm Michele Phillips: Um, you know, so it's like that fine line between don't talk to strangers and be nice to people. Matt Kosterman: Ja Michele Phillips: So but the brain is wired to keep us safe so that, that's where the, you know, the fight and flight comes in, and fight and flight was meant for emergencies. Michele Phillips: But many people live in that. I, I say most of them... I work with so many overachievers, they have normalized adrenaline. They, we have normalized running on adrenaline, and we beat our chest and tell people how great we are and how many things we got done, but we've really lost that connection, and we don't know how to... Michele Phillips: Most people don't know that their thinking brain and their fight and flight has taken over their life. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah, and like we ch- we chatted about briefly in the preamble, the, um, it, it's, it's the work to me, my work over the last 10 years, well more really is to become embodied. And at first I didn't really know what that meant, and it's to get out of that fight or flight, to settle the nervous system and, and, and just be Michele Phillips: And that's why I like to talk about the natural high because as a society, we are very uncomfortable. When- as soon as we get the l- tiniest bit uncomfortable, we go to addictive behaviors. We drink, we drug, we, um, scroll, we shop. My earpiece is falling out. We, um, we d- we want the quick dopamine hit. We pick up our phone. Michele Phillips: We can't just sit in a waiting room and maybe breathe. So it's recognizing that, and then my, my work is, my second book is around teaching people how to soothe their nervous system. Literally, n- just like a baby. If a baby was screaming, wailing right now, Matt, we would do anything in our power to distract the baby, stop it. Michele Phillips: You know, "Look at the keys. Look at the bird." You know? When our nervous system gets in that frenetic zone, learning how to soothe yourself, um, is the key to coming back into alignment. It doesn't last, right? It's, it's as, it's not as many ... It's not about staying in alignment, it's knowing how to get yourself back there. Michele Phillips: And I, I like to say it's kinda like hitting the rumble strips. You're driving down the road and all of a sudden the rumble strips come, and you're like, "Oh, I'm out of alignment." But so many of us have numbed ourselves to those uncomfortable ... I w- I call it that twist in the gut. You know, never let them see you sweat and, you know, kinda be the tough person. Michele Phillips: So that we've numbed ourselves until the, the straw that broke the camel's back kinda thing. It just keeps, the tension keeps building until we can't take it anymore versus if we just stop in that instant. That little n- you know, we get that twist in our gut and ask ourself, "What was I just thinking? What just happened? Michele Phillips: Am I in," I call it, "real danger or fake danger?" Matt Kosterman: う Michele Phillips: Unless you're bleeding or the building's on fire, you're making shit up in your head. That's what I always tell people. And usually that's, you know, what we're doing. Matt Kosterman: And it's r- like you said, it's slowing it all down. Look, what is the thought? What was the thought that just... can be difficult when you're in the fight. Like, there's a lot of thoughts flying around. Yeah. Michele Phillips: it's just starting to recognize them, yeah Matt Kosterman: And, and so, and there's, you have devi- just, what's the work? It's the devices to recognize it. Matt Kosterman: It's, uh, reminders. Do you, h- how do you, how do you Michele Phillips: For me, it's, well, it's a, yes, it's a, well, yes, all the above, I guess. But it's first knowing what does flow, the flow state feel like to you? What does it feel like when you're... The athlete would call it the zone. A positive psychologist would call it the flow state. When are you in a state where you're conscious mentally, physically, spiritually, emotionally in the moment? Michele Phillips: When you, and it could be like you said, you were just, you know, climbing a mountain. It could be, Matt Kosterman: Right. Michele Phillips: you know, cooking, surfing, dancing. But then realizing that you could cr- recreate that flow straight in your, flow state in your living room at your desk. Because when you are fully conscious and you're all in this present moment, everyth- when you're in the flow state, that monkey brain shuts up. Michele Phillips: And that's what's so, it's not talking anymore. Matt Kosterman: Right. Michele Phillips: It's only when you're out of alignment that it starts da, da, da, da, da. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I had an interesting experience after I went through the Landmark Forum back in Michele Phillips: Oh, I did that. Gosh, I did that so many years ago. Yes, '90s, I think. Matt Kosterman: Oh, yeah, you were ahead of the curve. And, and I, I was playing a lot of tennis at the time, and I was Michele Phillips: Yeah Matt Kosterman: frustrated with my game, and, you know, it was just like I'm not working hard enough, whatever, and came out of that, and there was about a two or three-week period where, like... Who's, who's the Mikkel, you can't say his last name, the flow state guy? He's the, Michele Phillips: Oh, yeah, Mikel Chicken and... Matt Kosterman: There, there, there, there, there are lots of consonants. Yeah. And I Michele Phillips: Yes. Matt Kosterman: I Michele Phillips: wrote the book Flow Matt Kosterman: And Flow, he wrote the book Flow, and I was there, and the ball was going at, like, a third of the speed, and I knew where it was gonna be, and I just effortlessly hit it Michele Phillips: I think. I'm sorry, I'm trying to say, Matt Kosterman: that's right. Yeah, yeah. Michele Phillips: Sorry. I'm so, we're sorry for not being able to pronounce your name Matt Kosterman: And, and it... But I was there, and it was like, "Oh, my..." And then as soon as I s- as soon as, like, I would inevitably miss a point or whatever, and I just watched myself kind of fall down Michele Phillips: Hmm. Matt Kosterman: l- you know, fall out of it as I started to be, as the self-critical voice came online and, and overwrote it. Matt Kosterman: But it, it was a great touchstone for what it can be Michele Phillips: That it's when you, you are so in it in that moment that that's what I want my goal- my biggest goal with people is to teach you that it's in your control. Not, I mean, not totally in your control, but you're the one who creates it. Matt Kosterman: Yes Michele Phillips: It's not waiting for the, the world to change. It's, you know, you changing and knowing it's not as Michele Phillips: It's not even how many times you get off course, but how many times can you get back on course. Matt Kosterman: Ja Michele Phillips: And that's ... And if I say that my first book, Happiness is a Habit, once I started really practicing habits mentally, physically, spiritually, and emotionally that made me feel good, I started having these, I call them magic carpet days. Michele Phillips: The energy was rising. I was feeling the vibration, and I was like, "Oh my gosh, this is ..." This natural high Matt Kosterman: Угу. Michele Phillips: uh, but it didn't last. So that's when I said, "Okay, let's talk about energy, and energy cannot be created or destroyed, but I choose where I get to focus it." So every subject is two subjects. Michele Phillips: So do I wanna go down the dark, scary road, or do I wanna make something good out of this? Regardless of what's happening, um, becoming unconditional with my energy. And again, I'm human, so I don't always get it right. I like Jim Rohn, he used to say, "Listen to my words very carefully, but don't watch me too closely." Matt Kosterman: Well, you know what? I, I just saw and I don't know if it was on your Instagram, but just saw a great metaphor for the, of the GPS, right? When you're driving in your car and you miss a turn, the GPS just silently recalculates your route. It doesn't beat you up. It doesn't Michele Phillips: No. Matt Kosterman: you missed the Michele Phillips: Exactly Matt Kosterman: You know? "Come on, straighten up and fly right." Like, it Michele Phillips: Yeah Matt Kosterman: you just, you're going a new way. And I, I, I liked that as a... 'Cause we, we do. Like, we're in this, the whole thing's a, it's like a big, uh, school Michele Phillips: Yes, Earth School. Yes. Matt Kosterman: yeah. Michele Phillips: Yeah Matt Kosterman: Um, so, so happiness as a habit, and then moving the habit, the, the habits then start calling more energy when you start be- practicing them. This is the idea Michele Phillips: And this is, you know, all scientifically proven. I'm not the researcher, but I love using everybody else's research. Um, and the research showed that when you do something for yourself mentally, physically, spiritually, and emotionally on a regular basis, you feel better. So the way you think mentally is a habit. Michele Phillips: Spiritually, where are you going for your spiritual supper, supper? Physically, you know, what are you doing that's good for your body? And emotionally, are you your own cheerleader? Are- do you have a good relation with yourself and then with others who support you and sustains you? But I, I used to make the joke, or I still make the joke in my workshops, you could take a walk or in the woods with a loved one and hit all four. Michele Phillips: It's not like you have all these things you have to add to your plate. They all overlap, and that's the beauty of it Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah, and, and I, I also, I, when I, people are a-- people ask me about this stuff, and I always like to start with the language, and if you go back to Landmark, that was also all about the language, right? It's how are you speaking out loud? How are you speaking to yourself in your head? 'Cause your words are literally spelling. You're spelling, you're creating a spell. You're Michele Phillips: Abracadabra. I, yeah. Matt Kosterman: right? Goes back to the Kabbalah, if I'm not mistaken. Michele Phillips: I think it means I s- it means, like, what I speak comes true or something. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, Michele Phillips: Yeah Matt Kosterman: And it's... I think there was, there was a list I got, it was right around Landmark time, of, like, words to banish from, from your language, and it was, you know, try and but and... 'Cause but negates the first half of the, the Michele Phillips: Yes Matt Kosterman: So I, I even have a text replacement in my computer, so if I Michele Phillips: I love that idea. Matt Kosterman: type B-U-T-T, it makes it into however Michele Phillips: Oh, that's so good. How do I do that? You'll have to teach me after the show. Matt Kosterman: I'll teach you after, yeah. But re- and, and these thing... And, and then y- I think, you know, there was this time, I don't know if you saw this, where people were talking about, you know, having your manifestations, having your, uh, your, your, your... Not mantras. What am I th- In the, saying out the positive phrases. Michele Phillips: Affirmations Matt Kosterman: Affirmations. Thank you. Thank you. And I used to think it was ridiculous. Like, "Oh, how could... This is stupid," right? And, and then I think I discovered, it was Paul Selig's work that I discovered. I don't know if you've read any of Paul. Um, and, uh, and I was like, "Oh." Matt Kosterman: And then I started doing it, and I started doing my I Am word through, and blah, and my life changed. It got better Michele Phillips: It was Neville that really taught me, yeah, that... 'Cause for years I Matt Kosterman: Neville Goddard. Yeah Michele Phillips: said affirmations and nothing was happening, and I was kind of following all the... But then I wasn't embodying it, like you said, right? It's a feeling, and a lot of the teachings don't ta- You know, I could say I'm, you know, a billionaire all I want, but if I don't feel that way, you know. And that's why I just, you know, with Dolly Parton passing recently, um, I've been a big Dolly fan forever so, you know, listening to her song the other night, Coat of Many Colors, and I love the message that she felt rich when... Michele Phillips: You know, her mother, people must know the song, but her mother takes all these scraps of rags and material and she makes her this beautiful coat, and she goes to school and everyone... She feels rich in her mother's coat that her mother made, but every, all the children make fun of her because it's made of rags. Michele Phillips: And I do believe that was part of the secret to her success, which is what you're saying. She felt rich Matt Kosterman: You gotta Michele Phillips: even when she wasn't. Or, or her version of... What's your version of rich? Yeah. So I love that. Matt Kosterman: or, or, or, or, or good Michele Phillips: Abundant or... Yeah. Matt Kosterman: or whatever. Michele Phillips: Yeah Matt Kosterman: to feel it. Uh, Neville Goddard, dear friend Laura just recommended a book. I don't know if you've ever read it. Um, oh my goodness, I'm gonna find it 'cause it's all... It's that new thought. It's Genevieve Behrend, Your Invisible Power. Michele Phillips: Oh, I don't know that one. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, and Michele Phillips: Okay Matt Kosterman: first one that really... Not the first one. It landed differently for me. Maybe Michele Phillips: Yeah Matt Kosterman: I did in April or whatever. But yeah, you... And, and the other thing is, I think Neville says this, uh, Genevieve says it, if you have some idea of something that you want in the future and you, you, you in- in- you visualize it, you feel it, and I've heard this several times and I've not always followed it, don't tell anybody about it. Michele Phillips: Hmm. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: A- and they said because what... And the, the great analogy was when, when you have worries and fears and things, you tell people about them, that, uh, that helps them dissipate, and that same energy, you'll dissipate the dream, and, uh, that, that landed for me anyway, so I just wanted to Michele Phillips: No, it's true. And, and telling... I always, kinda similar to you, tell people that will support you, not people that will, yeah, bring you off track Matt Kosterman: that will put you off track. Yeah, yeah. So then you, you get into... So now we've got the energy, but you wanna keep the energy flowing. So talk to me about time management versus this energy management Michele Phillips: Well, so and that's the thing. We're such a, you know, clock society and I love to even think about what was it like before clocks. Imagine like I always try to think about what did it, you know, you know, come over when the sun hits your Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Michele Phillips: You know, like, like people used to literally put a mark on the windowsill in the early days, so then they would know like, you know, kind of what time of the day it was. Michele Phillips: And once factories were invented, we became time was money. You had to show up at a certain hour and be fabulous between these hours, and that's when we started talking about time in a different way. But what's happened is we've gotten so lost in the time is money and the production, we've forgotten how to be. Matt Kosterman: Yeah Michele Phillips: And w- there's, you know, I always say there's two sides of your brain. Your, um, left side of your brain is always about providing and protecting. It's gonna get shit done, it's gonna provide for you, it's gonna protect you. But your right side of your brain is love, creativity, joy, and we've literally almost, not we haven't shut it down, but we live so much of our Western culture lives in the left brain that I want... Michele Phillips: I don't care how much time you have, if you're not present, you're not even there. So when you have energy and you're in alignment, oh my gosh, I was, you know, I was driving home from the gym the other day and just taking in like the, the clouds and the sky, and it's like I am fully embodying this moment and it looks so beautiful. Michele Phillips: But how many times have I driven home unconsciously on autopilot and not noticed anything? So that's where energy versus time is more important Matt Kosterman: And how do you... So I'm, I feel like I'm, know, on the, on the backside of this pa- of this curve of, of figuring all this stuff out, right? And still learning al- also. But had you come to me with this 15 years ago when I was deep in, you know, my trauma and, and, you know, society and all of this, not... Since I've done many, many medicine journeys and breathwork and blah, blah, blah. Matt Kosterman: How, what, what, how does somebody start? how... You know, I, what I found was beautiful about, like especially MDMA, which I've talked about many times, is it gave me this embodied feeling Michele Phillips: Mm. Yeah Matt Kosterman: being at peace. And so where, where do, where do they... 'Cause, and that was super anchoring for me to be like, "Oh, I felt that way in my body." It's possible, and I'm here to tell everybody that's listening, it's possible and you can get there without the drugs. But what's your, what, what's, uh, what are some Michele Phillips: Yeah, for me, it's helping people really reconnect because they, they felt it. Most people have felt it, but they've forgotten. I mean, if you think of when you're a child and when, you know, when was your happiest time? Um, the other thing I wanna say, Matt, before I go down that road is I always believe whatever works for you. Michele Phillips: So some people believe in chiropractic, and some people wanna go to a medical doctor, and some people wanna go to an orthopedic, or, you know, some people wanna go to Reiki. All these modalities work depending on, again, your belief system and you letting it in. Matt Kosterman: Yeah Michele Phillips: I never poo-poo any modality if it gives you the results you want. Michele Phillips: Um, for me, most of my clients are corporate, so I don't usually encourage them to go on you know, ayahuasca journeys, Matt Kosterman: Oh, I do. Michele Phillips: I love. Um, but the... I want you to know naturally when, when are you in the flow state, and most people can pick a time when they were in the flow state. So you wanna start small. The other thing is I teach people what I call the ladder up technique, which is your, your range of emotions. Michele Phillips: So if, uh, uh, if you imagine a ladder in front of you and the bottom... and that represents your emotional state. The bottom of the ladder, if you think of energy, is depression. I have no energy. I can't even get myself dressed and out of bed. The top of the ladder is joy, ecstasy. You think of someone very light and airy. Michele Phillips: Most of us... Here's the thing. Schools do not teach us how to manage our own emotions and our own energy. That's in- We are energy. You are energy. Matt Kosterman: Yeah Michele Phillips: So when you're in that low state, most people wanna jump from low to high, so that's where we drink, drug, shop, scroll. We want the quick hit. I wanna teach people how to feel where they are and take one little step up the ladder. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Michele Phillips: What's one little thought that feels better? So if you can move from depression to anger, I don't wanna live in anger, but anger has a lot more energy than depression. Matt Kosterman: This is, yeah, this is... You read David Hawkins? Yeah, Michele Phillips: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Very similar, yes. Matt Kosterman: force, right? Michele Phillips: Yep, love it. So you just, you know, by your thoughts, exactly, moving one step up the r- the rungs of these ladders. Michele Phillips: And if you can get yourself to hope, joy is a few, you know, rungs away. But again, knowing that... My whole thing is I want you to be able to repeat this over and- 'cause that's what life is, over and over and over again. This doesn't... You know, nobody gets this, you know, gold, I know it's not Willy Wonka. You don't get the gold ticket and life is perfect. Michele Phillips: I don't even know where that came from at, but it just came out of my mouth. But we all have our struggles, and the universe keeps serving up, keeps serving us up lessons. But once you know that you are able to get yourself out of a temporary state, uh... And I, again, I'm not a doctor. I- and there are a place for pharmaceuticals, there are a place for, you know, all these different things. Michele Phillips: But if you can use your own agency and start to teach yourself that you have more power than you realize, that to me is agency, and that gives you confidence versus relying on somebody else to give it to you Matt Kosterman: Yes, Michele Phillips: or something else. Matt Kosterman: else. A- a- Michele Phillips: Yeah Matt Kosterman: and it's the, the agency and this is like the Abraham kind of work, the agency is how you react to what is presented. That, that's where your free will starts and stops. And if you resist it, it's gonna get worse. I guarantee it. I've sat in silent meditation for 10 days, and I watched as the sensations arose, and if I just watched them, they disappeared. If I resisted them, it got really painful really fast. Michele Phillips: I'm gonna have you on my podcast 'cause that's a whole other episode. I wanna hear about that. Matt Kosterman: But, but that's ... I mean, I love what you're Michele Phillips: Yeah Matt Kosterman: it, it, it's, it's, it's all the same stuff. It's the energy. It's the, it's the, it's the reaction to what's happening. Stuff is always gonna happen, right? Michele Phillips: And energy is at our service. That's what I love to tell people. Energy's at your service. You're the one guiding it. So like you said, when I didn't fight it, phew, it, you know, it doesn't cling on. But when I fight it and I grab onto it, it makes things work- worse. It makes my body tense. Uh, so again, bad things happen to good people. Michele Phillips: I don't understand why children die. There's so many things in this universe I don't understand, but I trust there is a greater picture, and with that trust gives me the agency to write my own story, write my own outcome about why these things happen Matt Kosterman: Yeah. So it's ta- and it's taken you into this place of expanded consciousness. I mean, you started arguably expanded at, uh, in your 20s. Um, and as a kid, like knowing that we're all connected. Um, Michele Phillips: again, I didn't know that then. I just felt ins- intuit it. I felt like yes. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah, Michele Phillips: Yeah Matt Kosterman: mean, I think I felt that way, know, once or twice. I, I had a great English teacher who had us reading all kinds of philosophy and, uh, stuff. But what, what is... So consciousness, talk to me about what is consciousness? Michele Phillips: And again, it's awareness. It's being aware of the chair that you're sitting on, being aware of the food that you're eating, being aware of the decisions, the, the things you're saying, all these things we're talking about. Most people are on autopilot, and we don't realize we're on autopilot. And it's ... I always say, you know, how many times have you driven the same road and you don't remember driving? Michele Phillips: Or you eat that sandwich or that bag of potato chips and you're like, "Oh, I don't even remember eating it." So we have really normalized this fast pace, and there's another great, great quote that's coming to my mind. "These times are urgent. We must slow down. Matt Kosterman: うんうん、うんうん、う Michele Phillips: must slow down." We have, you know, bigger, better, faster, and it, it's, it's killing us. Michele Phillips: It's, it's really robbed our joy. Um, and then the other quote that's coming to my mind is, you know, "There's more to life than increasing its speed." So consciousness is if you're going to do something, be ... If you're going to eat a meal, don't have any technology. Don't be watching TV. Don't be ... You know, just taste the meal. Michele Phillips: Eat the meal Matt Kosterman: even ta- I remember when I first was getting into meditation and I went to an all-day retreat and we sat and ate together without talking. And that's a very weird thing initially to do. Michele Phillips: 'Cause we're not socialized like that. Matt Kosterman: that, yeah. And now Michele Phillips: Yeah Matt Kosterman: know, I'm fine with it, but I remember it was, it was quite strange. Matt Kosterman: And even we did work or, 'cause it was a Zen retreat, we did work around the property and we didn't, you know, we didn't speak with anybody else as we were working. You were just supposed to be, and I was like, "A lot is going on. This is really weird." Michele Phillips: Because it's so, you know, I always say too, there's, there's not many places in the, in our planet right now that you could... There's not music playing. Matt Kosterman: Ja Michele Phillips: I'm like, "Why do we have to pump music every single place?" We, we're so afraid of silence Matt Kosterman: I mean, I was on a hike in the Tetons, and I was coming out, and people were walking in, and the guy's got his phone playing music. I'm like, Michele Phillips: Yes. Matt Kosterman: doing? What are you doing?" Michele Phillips: everywhere. We were, uh, we went on a sailing trip in Tortola in February, and we, we rolled up at, like, 6:00 in the morning to this beautiful beach, and it was just gorgeous. Uh, by 7:15, they started pumping music on the beach, and I was like, "Oh my gosh, get us out of here." So again, it's becoming conscious and comfortable with silence. Michele Phillips: Um, and then when you're conscious, you are connected. I say your, your, your head, your heart, and your soul, your gut, I, I believe your soul and your gut are that same intersection. You are in alignment, and you are connected, and you make better decisions. You make better choices because you're aligned. It's like driving that beautiful c- I always say imagine driving, pick y- the sports car of your choice, and you get this beautiful sports car. Michele Phillips: You get this open road with nobody, and I say, "Have at it." And you are flying down that road. It feels so good. But the minute that tire blows out, man, you're struggling. And that, most of us, most, many people are running around with blown-out tires, but they're still trying to stay on the track. So it's that alignment of, you know, my, my brain is connected to my heart is connected to my gut, which is where my soul meets me Matt Kosterman: Yeah, which is like you, you talk about you can have success without alignment. I mean, I was living that for many years. I had a very successful business. I was making all kinds of money, and I was so miserable, and I didn't know how to get out of it. So what ta- how, you know, what's, what's this way out of this Michele Phillips: Yeah, the way out is just, um, starting... I, I really encourage my clients to s- to schedule the pause, and the pause can be a day, a week, an hour. I mean, you just have to start making time for you to do something that brings you joy that isn't for anyone else, that you're not gonna post about, you're not gonna sell it on Etsy, you're not going to, like, monetize it. Michele Phillips: Um, it, it's gotta be like, you know, every time it's like, "Let me capture this moment, and let me put it on..." You know, and Matt Kosterman: meditating. Let me Michele Phillips: yeah. Matt Kosterman: Instagram. Michele Phillips: So it's, it's... You know, I, I teased all this summer. I knew I needed to slow down because I got caught up in the pace. And so this summer I just said, "I need to slow down," or this year in January, and I started painting rocks, and I call it rock therapy. Matt Kosterman: Oh Michele Phillips: And everyone says, "You should sell those." I'm like, "I am not selling my rocks. They just bring me joy. I wanna sit here with my paint." So once you start to know that feeling, you know, 'cause again, people have lost it. We're so... The dopamine that we get from scrolling. Matt Kosterman: Угу Michele Phillips: read it, and I keep promoting it 'cause I love the title. Michele Phillips: It's called How to Break Up With Your Phone. So for me, it's taking social media off your phone. It's for the downtime without your phone. It's starting to have pockets of being, whatever that looks like. And meditating is... I love to meditate. I'm not very good at it, but I do it. But I think if people are... Michele Phillips: People seem to fight meditation a lot. Painting a rock, coloring. Um, I'm working actually on a coloring book. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah Michele Phillips: into that zone. Get into the- Cooking. There's so many things that people can start to do, and then I want them to start doing them on purpose, not just hoping they happen by happenstance. Matt Kosterman: Mm. Michele Phillips: So and then making sure they're in your life on a regular basis, not something that happens once in a while. Matt Kosterman: うんうん、うんうん。 Yeah, it's, there's that, that old parable of the, I think there's a Japanese version, a Mexican version. There's the fisherman fishing, Michele Phillips: Yes. Matt Kosterman: And the guy comes up and, "I could teach you how to make, you know, catch more fish, and you could build a big boat, and you could, you know..." And he's like, "Why would I wanna do that?" Matt Kosterman: "So you can retire and fish." He's like, "But I'm fishing Michele Phillips: I'm doing it now. Well, so that's the question, Matt, and that's the question I've been sitting with a lot is what is enough? What is enough time, enough money, enough salt on my food, enough travel, enough... You know, because we've gotten to this ... I was reading a statistic the other day that when computers and, you know, all the modern conveniences, you know, back in the day the economists were predicting we'd all be sitting around, you know, doing nothing, but they did not factor in consumerism, Matt Kosterman: Mm. Michele Phillips: most people would ha- like to have more money to buy more things they don't need versus a week off. Michele Phillips: So our cons- we are meant to do more than consume. We are here to create. So that's the creation, whether it's coloring, whether it's, you know, a sport, whether it's ... It could be pickleball. You know, something that, again, gets you into that flow state for no other purpose than the flow state Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Well, and that kind of, I mean, I, that sort of takes us into the realm, uh, we chatted about a little bit about AI and, Michele Phillips: Hmm. Matt Kosterman: leadership and AI and, um... I mean, I, I k- I think I have a, a bit of a contra- not a contrarian, a different view on AI. Like, what if AI is the thing that's gonna finally make us realize that we don't actually have to work all the time? Like, what if, you know, I, w- instead of, instead of the companies wanting to extract all the resources... Like I s- I saw a great, suggestion of why don't we make the AI data centers like oil in Alaska? Everybody gets a payout every Michele Phillips: Hmm. Yeah. Well, I don't think it's going away, so Matt Kosterman: so what are we Michele Phillips: yeah. It's a mirror, and that's my belief, is it is a mirror of our consciousness. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Michele Phillips: If... It could be used for good or it could be used for not so good. Um, we are at a serious, um, tipping point in our evolution where we n- the consciousness is grow- we need more conscious leaders. Michele Phillips: We need more conscious people on the planet, because we are connected to the planet, and if we don't figure that out soon, you know... Um, I love how Eckhart Tolle says it, right? He's like, "We might," you know, "We might, we might make it, we might not. I don't know. Time will tell." And I think, you know, I could see, you know... Michele Phillips: Again, we are at a really important stage right now where the more people that are become conscious of how their decisions affect each other, like, we are not, we don't live... Like, our body is a community. Like, my cells are all working together, just like we are all working together on the planet. I loved watching the, um, astronauts come back, you know, from that last mission. Michele Phillips: Um, and one guy, I guess a priest was waiting for them when they got off, and the first guy broke down in tears. He said, "I'm Catholic. I, I'm so excep- happy to see a priest." And the next guy got off, he goes, "I'm not Catholic, but I'm so happy to see a priest." He's like, "I, I had a spiritual experience up, up there." Matt Kosterman: even imagine Michele Phillips: Right? It's like when you see that we are on this, we are on a ball floating in space, and we are connected. Matt Kosterman: Yeah Michele Phillips: we are evolving. You know, that's why you're doing this podcast, and you're on your own quest, and I'm on my quest, and, you know, we need all the light keepers right now to help us move forward. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, and are you seeing this in leadership? Are you seeing Michele Phillips: I am. I've always said I work with the believers. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm Michele Phillips: every organization, there are people that get it. There are people that know, you know, what is that old saying? Like, you know, um, if morale... The beatings will continue until morale improves. Matt Kosterman: approves, Michele Phillips: But there are people that I ha- I work with the most amazing leaders that know the, you know, the health and wellbeing of their people is their greatest asset. Michele Phillips: So when I work with these believers in these pockets of these companies, I know they're there. And the more you talk about it, and the more people shake their head and they go, "Oh my gosh, yes, I didn't know this was the missing piece." Um, I had an executive the other day, she said to me, "Michelle, I had to take a personal day, and don't tell anyone. Michele Phillips: I wasn't sick." She said, "My brain was so full in overdrive, I, I couldn't think straight anymore." So it's, that's what's happening to us. Like we're burning out. And if my computer or your computer didn't have a sleep mode, right, it would start to overheat. Our brains are starting to overheat because we're not letting them rest. Michele Phillips: We're not letting our nervous system rest. So there are good leaders in organizations. They may be not be the, they might not be the, um... What's the word I'm looking for? The masses right now, Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Michele Phillips: they are out there. Matt Kosterman: They're out there. Michele Phillips: Yeah. We just need the quantum leap, right? We get the 100th monkey. We need the... Matt Kosterman: A hundred, we need the 100th monkey. I think the mon- it's coming. It's coming. I think it's coming. Do you, are you finding anybody... I know in, I think in Europe, uh, there's some countries where companies aren't allowed to, like, send emails after 5:00 or 6:00 PM. Is that, is that happening anywhere, Michele Phillips: I don't know what's happening in the United States, but there was a company I used to, I s- I can't remember what it was. I feel like it was some company in Germany, and I used to love what they did. When you were on vacation, it would say, "Matt's on vacation, um, till, you know, whatever, September 7th. Y- you know, please contact Matt when you get back. Michele Phillips: Your email, if you email him now, it will be deleted." And I thought, "Oh my God, Matt Kosterman: It's Michele Phillips: that's so great," because then when you get back, you don't have a gazillion emails waiting for you. So yeah, y- my husband's British, and you know, they laugh at us. You know, his kids are there, and, you know, December 15th, they're all off till after, everything closes till New Year's, you know, after New Year's. Michele Phillips: And these resets are so important. Um, but again, we're on this, I don't know, the United States is... I always say I was born in the wrong country. So, uh, Matt Kosterman: Well, Michele Phillips: I see, yeah, I see the believers out there giving comp time, giving flex time, doing what they can in the system. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, within the system. Michele Phillips: so yeah. Matt Kosterman: the system is... Yeah. I remember when I did go on that, that first meditation retreat thinking, "How can I po-" You know, like, you literally, you're unplugged for 10 days. Like, your Michele Phillips: Oof, yeah Matt Kosterman: you know. You don't read, you don't write, you don't speak to anybody. And, you know, I came out and the world was still here. Like, everything, you know, I had a few emails. It wasn't too bad, but it also just showed me how much spam I got, which was great. I went and Michele Phillips: Oh. Matt Kosterman: from a bunch of Michele Phillips: See, and what a great opportunity that you actually lived it, so now you can live to t- talk about it Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Michele Phillips: and share Matt Kosterman: uh, but, yeah, you know, I think you and I are fortunate in a way we don't, we don't have to go, you know, show up three days a week at the office. We're not being, we're not being tracked, um, in, in that, in that way. I don't know that I Michele Phillips: Well, that's what I don't think is sustainable. I mean, now I'm dating myself, but I remember when the F- Fios guy came to put Fios in my house, he was there all day, and I tried to offer him drink, and he's like, "Oh, no, they're tracking me. I gotta get it done." And the poor guy didn't, like, 'cause, you know, they knew where he was and what he was doing, and I just don't think it... Michele Phillips: These corporations are unsustainable, and it's... That's why I believe everything's shaking. Um, the corporations are getting too big. The church is shaking. The, our education system is shaking. Our politics are definitely shaking. The monarchy is shaking. So I'm not saying it's a good thing or a bad thing. Michele Phillips: I'm thinking it's a necessary thing. The systems need to shift. I don't know what that looks like, but I'm trusting that it will, you know, we'll figure it out Matt Kosterman: Yeah, I'm right there with you. I mean, 100%, like, the, the foundations of everything are shaking is, is the question. And I think-- don't know. I, I think, you know, you talk about writing your outcome. I think it's up to us to write the outcome of that. I don't think... The systems are us, right? So what do we want the outcome to be? Matt Kosterman: Do we want it to f- do we want it to completely fall apart? Paul, Paul's guides have said, um, you know, our biggest, humanity's biggest problem is its denial of the divine. Michele Phillips: Hm. Ja Matt Kosterman: we are the divine, and it's the, the connection to oneself. Um, but it's al- they've also said we've agreed to lift to this higher s- this higher frequency, and, and that's what we're going through. Matt Kosterman: And they're great. I mean, I love what you said about the foundations are shaking. Uh, the, the quote that I love is, um, know, "When a seed is breaking through the earth, it's not very comfortable Michele Phillips: Hmm. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: around it." Uh, Michele Phillips: talk about growing pains Matt Kosterman: yeah, and we're going through 'em. Michele Phillips: Yeah. So it's that trust, and I love what you're saying, um, that we are being called, and if you are trying desperately to hold on to what was, you're gonna get stuck. But if you go confidently forward, even knowing you don't know, right, we don't know where it's going, but, you know, confidence in that, uh, you know, it will evolve into something brighter is Michele Phillips: I have to, I have to keep the hope and the optimism. Matt Kosterman: You got, yeah, you have to 'cause y- you'll, you're, we're gonna live into whichever one, Michele Phillips: Yeah. And you, you said something before, it's ... I like what you said before. You said about we- we're writing the outcomes now. Most, I, I say most people, you know, the masses, whatever, where myself included until I learned this stuff, was we want the conditions to be different for us to feel good. And the key to this is to feel good when the conditions are exactly as they are Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah, that's great. Because it w- and it's, and it's ultimately it's feeling good that creates the conditions that make you feel good. Like, it's, it's self-fulfilling. And bad shit'll happen, like, like negative, whatever, bad, like it's judgment. We gotta get rid of the judgment, right? But things that are uncomfortable will happen to all of us. Um, but so how do... So on a personal level, how do you write your outcome? How do, how is this- Michele Phillips: For me, it's re- recognizing when that twist, you know, when I'm emotionally hijacked, when I get that twist in my gut. I have named my ego Wanda 'cause she's a bitch and she can, you know... Nothing nice usually comes out of her mouth. So knowing that if I name her as somebody, an entity outside of me, that, like I'll say to my husband, "Wanda's here. Michele Phillips: Just, I need a minute, 'cause don't come near me 'cause it's not gonna be pretty." So recognizing when you're out of alignment and giving yourself the grace that... So I mean, sometimes I s- I teach this. I see it, and I can't get out of it. I'm like, "Oh, I just wanna like, you know, throw something or..." And but knowing it's temporary, and that I have the tools to write a new outcome, and then I say to myself, "Michelle, what would a conscious person do?" Michele Phillips: An unconscious person, 'cause I was unconscious for many years, yelling, screaming, throwing things, thinking I was powerful. Matt Kosterman: うーん。 Michele Phillips: when I learned that was not powerful, it's still... I always say I'm quick to spark, but I'm also quick to diffuse. So it's learning those tools, learning that this, these ugly feelings are, you know, I always say it's like worms squished in a can just wanting to break out or... Michele Phillips: And it's a, such a uncomfortable feeling that I wanna unload all my ugly emotions on you versus processing them. Where are they coming from? What, what's that Course in Miracles? Whatever we're blaming out there is what's unhealed in here. Matt Kosterman: yeah, Michele Phillips: So this whole conscious and saying, oh, my God, if I'm, you know, mad at the drivers, or I'm mad at the, oh, kids today, it's where is that triggering something in me that I have to work on. Michele Phillips: So it's that mirror always back, always being graceful. Journaling is my go-to to write out what I'm feeling. Because sometimes when you write out these ridiculous feelings, they don't seem ridiculous in the moment, but as you write them, you go, "Oh, okay, you know, I can, I can move forward. I can, you know, I'm, I'm, I can-" Matt Kosterman: I, I love what you said. I mean, just feel the feelings, right? We're meant, they're meant to be felt, and we're so trained from such a young age to, to resist them Michele Phillips: Yeah Matt Kosterman: actually feel them, and then they're just gonna stay there Michele Phillips: And processing. And that's the big thing. People, happiness gets a bad rap 'cause they think, "Oh, it's just pretend. Everything's happy and good." I'm like, "No, no, no." You have all the exa- the emotions, but you just know how to process them. You know how to ladder up and, you know, and the m- the more skill you have, the more time you spend in the higher frequencies than the lower Matt Kosterman: Well, and, and what just came to me is ta- talk to me a little bit about how you see the gender roles in leadership, Michele Phillips: Hmm. Say more what you're thinking Matt Kosterman: well, so from through the lens... If I look at it through more of a Eastern or a tantric lens or a divine masculine, divine feminine lens, we Michele Phillips: Yeah Matt Kosterman: we have a lot of male leaders. Matt Kosterman: That's in, in, especially in this country, and there's, there's a patriarchy, and Michele Phillips: Ja Matt Kosterman: there's a way of doing things, and there's a way of being. And then I see lots of powerful women coming in, and oftentimes trying to emulate the Michele Phillips: Men Matt Kosterman: leadership Michele Phillips: ja Matt Kosterman: then they get slammed because they're a bitch or they're too short or, you know. Matt Kosterman: And so I'm just curious how you work with this en- these energies Michele Phillips: I'm so glad you brought this up. So, so many things are popping in my head. First of all, I always say women, you know, in our society, we're socialized. So, in, in, in the ladder of emotions, this, I don't know, pretend even if we go back to, um, power versus... Let's say there's 50 emotions. I don't remember how many are on the ladder. Matt Kosterman: Ja Michele Phillips: give men these five, right? These are the five acceptable emotions. You feel them all, but don't show us. So we're socialized in, you know, into this macho, whatever, power. And then women, again, are expected, you know, sometimes they don't have any good role models. So I actually started hosting a goddess gathering last July. Michele Phillips: I host it at my house once a month, and I get a group of women together because I really want us to embrace the feminine energy. And both are good, right? We used to have kings and queens, witches and warlocks, right? It's, it's the, it's the combination that's good, and we complement each other. So I want w- And they said to me, "Goddesses? Michele Phillips: I'm not a goddess." I'm like, "Oh my gosh, we have to own our emotional intelligence, that we're, we're just more sensitive." You know, these are your superpowers Matt Kosterman: Yep Michele Phillips: your curse. And, you know, women were burned at the stake and, you know. So I think that's whether it's in our subconscious pain body as, um, Eckhart Tolle would put it. Michele Phillips: I think he says in his book, "More women were, were killed during the Inquisitions than Jews during the Holocaust." And that's a big Matt Kosterman: That's a big Michele Phillips: He says that in one of his books. Matt Kosterman: Wow Michele Phillips: it's in our psyche or our subconscious, so being able to be a powerful woman with emotions, not, um, emotional. There's two different thing. Michele Phillips: They're two different things. But really, um, I want women... You know, I always say with the Mother Teresa quote, "The world will be saved by a woman." I think, um, Mother Teresa said that. Matt Kosterman: あ。 Yeah. Michele Phillips: some deep spiritual person. So we are... I really want my women to embrace them, and there's a difference between crying at work ver- versus processing your emotions at work, and that's the conversation I have with my clients. Matt Kosterman: And are your clients, is it a mix of genders? Michele Phillips: I do. I have a lot of men clients, um, but I do have some females, and I do ha- um, a particular female's coming to mind that, you know, said to me, like she's high up on the chain. She's in the, you know, the top, top chain, and she's probably one of the few women in the room, and she's like, "I can never let them see that I have any weakness." Matt Kosterman: Mm. Michele Phillips: that makes me sad, you know? Um, it's that, that armor we put around us. But again, finding the outlet, finding, you know, finding the, your trusted... I always say you need a trusted number two at work, a trusted number... You know, who can you go to and let those emotions be free? Um, it might not be the, all the men in the room, but you have someone that you can go to. Matt Kosterman: but for the men too. I mean, it's Michele Phillips: Yeah, exactly. Matt Kosterman: I mean, it's not just women that shouldn't... that like they're not allowed to express their emotions. Michele Phillips: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: I Michele Phillips: That's why men's groups are so important too. Yes Matt Kosterman: work is great. Mankind Project, throw a, throw a, a, a, a, a, a shout-out for the Mankind Project. I don't know if you're familiar with it, but it's great work. Um, Michele Phillips: that? Who, who started that one? Matt Kosterman: it started here in, in Milwaukee and Michele Phillips: Okay. Matt Kosterman: really one, one leader, but Michele Phillips: Okay Matt Kosterman: psychosocial, uh, uh, it's, um, uh, what do you call it? Um, somatic. It's a great... It's a, it's a two-night, it's a two-night camp. They're all over the world actually, um, Michele Phillips: OK Matt Kosterman: So, Michele Phillips: Yeah, we need more of those Matt Kosterman: Yeah, more of those. Matt Kosterman: But yeah, the men, the men too, I still find my programming, like some emotion will come up and the first instinct is to suppress it. It's Michele Phillips: And that's men are taught to show anger or stuff it, right? Those two, and there's all these things in the middle. So that's why I think the more... Like, I love people like you bringing light to these things and talking about them, um, 'cause every m- you know, men feel every single emotion that women f- it's the same, right? Michele Phillips: But Matt Kosterman: same. Yeah. I mean, you get me on mushrooms, I'm gonna feel all the emotions, but and show them. There's no hiding any of it, but I'm getting better about it day to day. Um, so I love this. This was great. What else? What else? What are you re- what are you reading? You said you... Michele Phillips: What am I reading? Oh my goodness. I just w-- I, I'm reading so many things, I'm like, "Where do I go with this?" I just finished one of Bruce Lipton's books. I'm going to see him on Saturday. Matt Kosterman: Okay. Michele Phillips: So Matt Kosterman: on tour. I think he's coming to Michele Phillips: yeah, I'm seeing Bruce and Anita Moorjani on Saturday in Manhattan, so I'm very excited. So Matt Kosterman: that's Michele Phillips: his book is "Beyond Darwin." Matt Kosterman: Okay Michele Phillips: Um, and I'm reading the... I think it's called "The Awakened Way." It's over there. I'm looking at Suzanne somebody. Somebody recommended it. Matt Kosterman: The Awakened Way. Michele Phillips: Um, I believe that's Matt Kosterman: Anita was the, the can-, the, the Hodgkin's Michele Phillips: to be me. Matt Kosterman: to me, Michele Phillips: Yeah. So I'm really looking forward to, um, to yeah, to seeing them speak. Yeah Matt Kosterman: seen, have you seen Paul Selig speak before? Michele Phillips: No, but I know I've read him. What are his books? W- the name is... Michele Phillips: I feel like I'm Matt Kosterman: was his first. Um, I interviewed him last year. Uh, he's, he's channeled 14, I think he's on his 15th book. But he'll be in New Michele Phillips: Is he in any, Matt Kosterman: weeks Michele Phillips: okay. Is he in any of Mike Dooley's books? Matt Kosterman: No, he's like his own thing. He Michele Phillips: God, his name is so familiar, but I can't place him. Matt Kosterman: he Michele Phillips: Okay Matt Kosterman: theater professor at NYU and, Michele Phillips: Okay Matt Kosterman: College, and then he had this s- probably, what was probably a kundalini awakening 25, 30 years ago and opened to this channeling, and he's just a direct, clear voice Michele Phillips: Yeah Matt Kosterman: uh, yeah. But he's gonna be... Highly recommend. His stuff is, is really cool in person. Michele Phillips: Yeah, I read a book, um, with Mike Dooley, and he had all these channelers, like each one had a chapter. I, I don't... I feel like, I don't know. I have to go back and look at it. But anyway Matt Kosterman: yeah. But yeah, recom- that'll, that'll be fun to see Bruce and Anita. Very cool. Um, well great. Thanks so much for being here, for taking the time. Michele Phillips: Thank you. This is a... I love talking about this, so it was just a delight Matt Kosterman: Well, I'm glad. I do too. So I'll, I'll have all of, uh, all of Michelle's contact information and all that'll be in, uh, in the metadata as usual. And, uh, thanks Michelle Michele Phillips: Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure Matt Kosterman: Likewise