Latest / Leaders on Shopify with John Readman / Scaling a Shopify brand from £1M to £30M: what actually works with Quickfire Digital

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Scaling a Shopify brand from £1M to £30M: what actually works with Quickfire Digital · Leaders on Shopify with John Readman

• John - Leaders On Shopify: Welcome back to the Leaders on Shopify podcast. So we've got Nathan today, But I suppose for those people listening to the podcast today, ⁓ who've never come across you or Quickfire, can you just give us a of an overview? Who are you? What do you do? Why are you guys really good at what you do? Nath Lomax - Quickfire: Yeah, so I'm Nate or Nathan, co-founder of Quickfire. There's three of us, Fred, Martin and I. Martin, Systems, Process Finance, Fred, EcomStrategy, myself, New Business, Sales and Growth. We started Quickfire first of June 2017. We've scaled now to about three and a half million, 40 people working with brands all over the world. So some of our clients include Tala, Reebok, Juicy Couture, Beaver Town, Veev, Wrexham Football Club, like some unbelievable brands we're incredibly proud to work with. I think... why we are where we are now Shopify platinum agency. one of circa 20-30 across a meter is really the focus on specialists rather than generalists. And we talk about that a lot, particularly with scaling brands. How do you make sure that you get past the point of jack of all trades, someone doing everything you get to, don't know, half a million. You think actually now I need to start splintering these off. and I'm actually just going to have someone that just does Meta I'm going to have someone that just does Google. I'm just going to have someone that just does email, someone just does Shopify. I'm going to hold their feet to the fire and make them sweat as hard as possible. And that's the component, right? So all we do is Shopify migration. So we take people from Magento, BigCommerce, WooCommerce into Shopify or scaling existing Shopify stores. Typically when we're scaling existing stores, let's say it's about 70 % of the business now. What you're looking at is Can we improve conversion rate? Can we improve average order value? Can we improve lifetime value? What we aren't touching is sessions. So we'll say, okay, have you got all those channels in place? Yes, you have. Fantastic. Or no, maybe you some intros from our network. And then essentially, how do we make sure that the onsite experience is brilliant as possible? So we are turning more customers into second customers, lifetime customers, et cetera. John - Leaders On Shopify: Cool, that was a lot to unpack in there. you've been in this Shopify world a long time. Why ⁓ Shopify seem like a good home for you? And have you dabbled with others and like why are you now ⁓ 100 % on Shopify, which obviously got you that platinum badge? What is it about Shopify for you and your business? Nath Lomax - Quickfire: No, we started originally doing everything for everybody. Right. So we were doing a bit of social. I remember doing social media for a local chip shop. Like we're doing it all just like wherever you could build revenue. So yeah, I was, I was, I was writing the posts and I used to drive to class talking to a client earlier. was, ⁓ I used to drive to their house. He had three young kids. They were using me like a climbing frame. was building a website while they were kind of, and you used to the go round family's houses for Sunday lunch. And you had a real. John - Leaders On Shopify: Take the money, we'll just take the money. Can you do that? Of course we can, we'll work it out. Nath Lomax - Quickfire: lovely bond, but essentially as you scale that becomes much harder. but yeah, essentially we were doing everything for everybody in 2019. We decided we need to hang our colours to the mast and be known for something. And I've grown up in a world of hospitality. My parents have been hoteliers all their lives. So I really thought that was going to be hospitality. Having said that we got an opportunity to work with Bremont watches to move them over to Shopify. They'd been let down last minute and they had like four weeks to get it across. And I was like, yeah, of course we can help. No worries at all. And I was like, how on do we do this? So we all got in the trenches, helped them move over. It was a successful migration. They were super happy. We went on to work with them for many years. That was great. And I was like, bloody hell, something in this Shopify thing. I'm enjoying it. started doing more. And actually at the time Shopify of course was, was known, but it wasn't as popular as it is now. So we chose to back the Shopify horse. Then lockdown happened. again, when people say, what made you choose it? Absolute luck. 90 % of it. So we backed the right horse at the right time. Lockdown came and it originally everyone was cutting spend. Then everyone wanted to go to Shopify and it was just everyone inquiring and it just very quickly grew. And then we started delivering great work and getting known and people are introducing and, then we started bringing more and more brands on board. So I think back to the, the Tala win and you've seen the growth journey they've been on and you think of, the involvement with the Bartra group. So Juicy Couture, then they bought Hunter Boot, then they bought Reebok, and the European license there and being on that journey with them and Beaver Town and the growth journey they've been on with Heineken, et cetera, et cetera. So there's been quite a few growth journeys with them being part of. And essentially it just comes back to doing good work. When you don't get it right, like being honest and open to say, actually, we didn't get it right. This is how we're going to resolve it. And then when you are doing good work, bloody shout and promote it. And that's one thing we've been very good at is we are not. John - Leaders On Shopify: No, I would say you are good at that. And I'm always seeing stuff thinking they've won another amazing household name client. ⁓ And I they must come to a point, and I don't know if you're at that point now where there's some brands actually, or some clients that just aren't right for you or aren't the right fit for you and your team or where your team's ambition is. So when a new brand does come to you or... So I'm assuming the brands you go out to talk to, you've identified, yeah, we want to talk to those guys, but you're getting a lot of people approaching you because you're winning awards and you're doing some good work. When they first come to you, what sort of things do you really want to try and understand before you decide, even if you want to talk to them or you want to engage with them and help them? Nath Lomax - Quickfire: Yeah. So I think the first thing is their ambition. what I find really interesting is ⁓ have, I find it really difficult to say no. And ⁓ for example, I spoke to a lovely brand this morning. She was lovely. She's part of the buy women build program. She's got a fabulous business here in the East of England. And I really wanted to help her. And I ended up just saying, look, I'll just give you some time free of charge and give you some pointers. Like if it comes to pay for stuff, we'll probably signpost you to one of our agency friends, just cause I think in my heart of hearts. that's not right for us as an agency and that's not right for you as the brand. And I know if I do the right thing by you for the brand, then essentially when you are at the right size, we'll be the first people you think of. So I'm finding myself doing a lot of those free calls or pro bono calls or just trying to set people on the right path or make introductions to different app partners or whatever it's going to be to just say, look, I will look after you. It's an unregulated world and every man, lady and their dog claim to do Shopify. I see some really great examples and I see some really horror examples and it's just making sure I know, okay, well if I help them avoid some of that. again, example this morning, lady's having a migration. She's been quoted a thousand pounds to do the migration. I said, first things first, like I will start at like 40,000. So like, for goodness sake, do not use us. Like that is not right for you. And I fully accept that. but just be wary, make sure it includes these two things. So who's doing things like three or one redirects. Who's looking after that. Who's looking after any structure and data transfer is that product that orders is that customers, etc. and just making sure for that thousand pounds that it isn't just simply spinning up a Shopify theme and. ⁓ John - Leaders On Shopify: Yeah, and I we've all been in this game a long time and I'd worry if someone could actually do a good job. It sounds awful for 1000 pounds is like we all know how much effort to do this properly is. And maybe she does only have a small site. But I do think you get a reputation yourself by doing things like that. You just touched on that you're based in the east of England. And so unlike lots of other agencies that are like London or Manchester, you've successfully championed Norwich. what's been great about that and what have been the challenges. Nath Lomax - Quickfire: I think I'd be very proud of the routes where we're from and all our team are here. We have a fully UK based team all in Norwich. That's great. It's two hours from London. So I'm on the train two or three times a week. I normally stay in London a couple of nights a week. So yeah, haven't managed to stay in Norwich purely, particularly for business development growth. All our events are in London. Any kind of client meets are normally in London or further afield. out in Belgium running an event this week. as much as I would love to do more in Norwich. The brands sadly aren't always around here in Norwich, but what's really nice is if there's a brand in East of England that won Shopify, nine times out of 10, we'll now get a call. We won't always win it for sure, but at least we'll be in the frame. And that's all I could ever ask. If we look at back to one of your first conversations, like why are we here now? Why are we the size and scale we are? Not only did we focus on Shopify and Shopify only, but we focused on a very specific vertical within Shopify, which wasn't, imagine most people slice a cake this way. So they'll say, okay, it's going to be vertically. Vertical. Yeah. Vertically sliced. I've gone horizontally and said, actually, we just want to own mid market. So if you're doing one to 30 million in revenue, you're for us. If you're not doing one to 30 million, that's absolutely okay. There might be the odd outlier at 40, 50, et cetera. But if you're doing 200 million, we're probably not the right agent for you And if you're doing. half a million, we're probably not the right agency for you and that's absolutely okay. I think in doing so, you out your total addressable market or TAMs, you might hear it like actually become very laser focused on who that is and who that isn't. And then you just know, okay, this one isn't in my TAM, no problem. Let me just be as helpful as possible. This one is in my TAM. How do I move them along a funnel and introduce them to Dan Gordon and yeah. John - Leaders On Shopify: Or isn't it? And yeah, you do talk to a lot of people where they go, ⁓ we can help everybody do everything. And then you become a jack of all trades, master of none. And you almost get snow blind by everything. And it arguably becomes easier to explain to people how you're going to help them because you've helped multiple people like them. Have you ever considered going even more niche and say, right, we're just going to do fashion or we're just going to do this because you do a lot in fashion. Nath Lomax - Quickfire: Yeah, we looked at sectors and being sector specific. I personally like the variety. I love the thought of one day you're working in med tech and the next day you're over in fashion and the next day you're in sports or whatever. I really like that. And I like the cross learnings. I always remember the example of Fourth Glade, one of our long-term and most wonderful clients. had a feeding guide or like a quiz and it was okay. How do you John - Leaders On Shopify: They're the dog food people, yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nath Lomax - Quickfire: Where do you take that concept and Beaver Town over here want a beer finder? And actually the concept isn't a million miles apart, right? You take people through a guided quiz, you give them a dedicated collection at the end of it. You store the data, you enrich their Klaviyo profile. So then you're like, okay, well, how do I take the learnings and take that into a totally different industry? And now I've got two, all TP toys, another wonderful client of ours. ⁓ They've selling climbing frames. Well, they also want to take people through a guided quiz to then say, actually, this is the right climbing frame or or playground apparatus for you. So actually there's quite a lot of cross learnings from the sectors. So I don't think we'd go sector specific, but I do wonder if it will become even more niche than we'll just start to imagine one 30 imagine if we just go five to 30 for example and we'll just we'll just slightly slightly slightly close it close it close it. John - Leaders On Shopify: Well, that's interesting because I was going to ask one to 30 is quite a broad spectrum. actually somebody doing one is probably still owner run might have a freelancer helping them with a bit of marketing. So on at 30 has really pushed through a boundary and depending on their margins is operating a big business at 30 million. And I suppose you've helped lots of companies go on that journey. What does it really take and Nath Lomax - Quickfire: Hmm. John - Leaders On Shopify: where do the real gains come from for someone to move that needle? Nath Lomax - Quickfire: Interestingly, the brands, I did a talk about this the other day, the brands I'm seeing kick through the ceiling, if you like, of like one million beyond, is they stop procrastinating. And that sounds crazy, but you get to a point of almost decision paralysis, which you found in a lot of brands where they've built this thing far bigger than perhaps they could have thought or expected or hoped. And then they are so worried about making a mistake or the wrong decision, they make no decision, right? So they just get stuck. And those... John - Leaders On Shopify: So they almost forget what got them to where they got by making quick decisions, 100 % passion, feel from the gut, let's go. And they start thinking, oh, now a big business. Potentially, they're worried about what they've got to lose rather than what they've got to gain. Nath Lomax - Quickfire: Absolutely right. So you think about it like, okay, now I'm a million pound and I've got 20 people outside and I've got a load of mortgages I'm responsible for and I've got load of supplies and everything else. And suddenly I'm so worried to make a decision. I'm now going to bounce it across seven different people. I'm going to have opinions coming left, right and center. I'm not just going to bat. And again, like the amount of brands that are using data to drive their decision making still baffles me how limited do. but what we're finding is that. Those that are saying, okay, I now have got to one, I'm going to have to adjust, evolve, mature, et cetera. But to get to one to 10, I still need to relentlessly execute. I still need to back myself. I still need to understand not every decision is going to be the right decision. I still need to use data to inform my decision making. Those are the brands that are exceeding and excelling Those ones that are going, actually we're going to, I'm seeing quite a few brands trying to in-house. ⁓ that's quite interesting at the moment is those between one to five think that the way to get there is possibly by in-housing. John - Leaders On Shopify: And when you say in-housing, do you mean the actual dev support that you would be doing or do you mean the digital marketing or do just mean as much as possible? Nath Lomax - Quickfire: All right. Digital, I would say more so I find less people in housing dev the odd brand will bring in a dev, but they still want an agency to work with the dev. I just spoke to one of our clients last week and they were saying, I'm thinking about bringing a dev in and like, can you work alongside them and help them? And I was like, absolutely. Because essentially they want to get through a higher volume of tasks, but they haven't got enough hours with the agency. And of course it's time you Like level out, probably go, actually, it's probably better if you want 150 hours a month. Like maybe you just hire a dev to do X amount of hours and the agency does Y and then you allocate the tasks accordingly. You then got challenges around accountability of the code base, et cetera. But the main one I'm seeing in housing is things like Meta, Google, et cetera, where people say, actually, we're going to bring that in house. The challenge is then you've got someone that potentially isn't finger on the pulse. Sometimes there's some great people. Sometimes they're not so great. John - Leaders On Shopify: Yeah, my is over time, some of the execution be done in house, but you need some sort of finger on the pulse, is strategy, access to matter access to it. I think there's this sort of going to be a shift in what the future agency looks like. ⁓ And is it more strategy, support, best practice, regular audits and support and training versus we do it all for you. I think people are just And then think some of this, we weren't going to talk about this, but let's talk about it anyway. But I think some of it is the Metas of the world and the Googles of the world are reaching out direct to the client saying, we've got all this clever AI that's just going to do it for you. And that clever AI, in my opinion, if you're Googling, you build an AI to help people with Google Ads, it's probably going to help you spend more money on Google. That might be cynical, but Google is a for-profit business. And I do think having an independent eye Nath Lomax - Quickfire: No, no, no. John - Leaders On Shopify: on this stuff because a lot of clients get flattered by the fact they've got their direct access and a Google rep. But actually, they're just incentivized to get you to spend more money on Google. Having somebody independent to help you arbitrage where you should be investing your money is still, in my opinion, a sensible move, whether that's once a quarter, once a month, or every day. I think there's a hybrid in there somewhere. Nath Lomax - Quickfire: definitely. And then you look at ⁓ and where Google says spend more with Google and Meta says spend more with Meta and Klaviyo saying spend more with Klaviyo. And you're like, look, at the end of the day, I just want a single source of truth that I can rely on that goes, actually, this is where I need to spend my time and energy to deliver the best return. And why platforms like ASK BOSCO® et cetera, are doing so well. Right. And I think for me, ⁓ would say the other thing is just that, that delegation piece where You are going transition from it's just me as the founder, et cetera. So now I'm building a management team. I'm bringing in head of e-commerce, cetera, hiring, right. And then making sure not only have we hired right, but we are bringing in those trusted opinions around us without having 25 advisors all giving conflicting advice. So you normally get a non-exec or someone like that. John - Leaders On Shopify: It was quite interesting, because I did an interview with another agency founder and I asking similar questions. I'm like, what does it really take to scale? What are the things that people get wrong? And I was expecting them to talk about tech or about apps about this and he he just said people. right. He said the biggest, if I look at any of my clients, the ones that are really, and he goes, it sounds really simple, but just because it's a Shopify ecommerce business, it's still a people business. and it's going to be the people that will help you grow your business. So hiring well, understanding who you're hiring, getting support in helping you hire. Because that's the other thing on the agency or Modo25 in housing stuff. We help brands actually interview and recruit their people because they don't know what a good PPC person looks like or what a good SEO person looks like. And then you can hold them and also we've got to work with them hybrid in the background. Then we want to make sure they know what they're doing because otherwise we're going to look like plonkers. ⁓ Nath Lomax - Quickfire: Well, I think it's super interesting. think the other thing is just the perseverance. Like it's bloody hard and things like the tariff changes and all that good stuff. Like it's constantly moving landscape for econ brands. And I think what I'm finding a lot of brands is you've got to have a hell of a lot of resilience and so many won't go from one to 10, not because they're bad businesses, but just because it becomes too much. And I've seen quite a lot of agencies recently, interesting, just away from brands for a second that have decided actually grow to sell, grow to sell, grow to sell. I've got to... million quid I've got to 20 people I don't need this dress anymore I'm actually just gonna dial it down John - Leaders On Shopify: Well, I think there is an element of people go on this journey thinking, ⁓ when I get there, it's going to be good. Right. And I've been on that journey a few times and actually it's just the same. So why not enjoy the process of getting there? Right. And I do think some people are no, when we, we sell the business or when we get to 5 million or when we get to 10 million, the world's just going to, I'm going to wake up in the morning. It's all going to change and you'll just have different problems or different opportunities or different exciting challenges. Nath Lomax - Quickfire: Yeah John - Leaders On Shopify: I think there's a real key for people building businesses to make sure they surround themselves with great partners, great agencies, great teams, so they can enjoy the process of building the business. Because we all spend a lot of time at work building the businesses that we're trying to build. Nath Lomax - Quickfire: Yeah, exactly. And also then you, you've got this thing in certainly today's society where you're constantly comparing yourself to the business down the road, right? So you're like, oh, but that business. You just go like the end of the day, like the sooner you can become content with what you're doing, the happier you'll become, right? Because there will always be someone with a better boat, with a nicer car, et cetera. And you're constantly striving for that thing, but you have no context of how the person got that thing. And I think that is. John - Leaders On Shopify: That's the Instagram world everybody. ⁓ look at what they're doing. Yeah Nath Lomax - Quickfire: fascinating to see unfold in front of our very eyes with some of our brands where you go, yeah, of course you want to be 50 million. We all want to be 50 million, but actually there's a process to get there. And the reason that brand's at 50 million is there are a very set of reasons that you guys can't get a 50 million. John - Leaders On Shopify: So if you looked at what are the common mistakes that you see people, the DTC brands, whilst they're trying to grow, what are the sort of common mistakes that people make? Nath Lomax - Quickfire: One at the moment is they are constantly thinking they've got a conversion problem. That's not a conversion problem. It's a traffic problem. And that isn't just me saying that because we do conversion. because I will, I will give the flip to that argument as well, which is part of the audience to go and we've got a conversion problem. You look at it, you look at the data, you see where the traffic's coming from. You realize particularly Shopify brands, there's a ton of traffic from council bluffs, which is bot traffic and you're chucking a load of money trying to fix a conversion problem. And you realize conversion was a problem. Anyway, it was a fact that actually we're not got the right reporting in place. John - Leaders On Shopify: Because you're in charge of ⁓ Nath Lomax - Quickfire: And therefore we're reporting inaccurate on the traffic. that's point one. Point two is that actually there is a conversion problem, but we're chucking too much money acquiring new customers, or maybe there's an average order value or a lifetime value problem. And instead of focusing on taking customer one to spend twice, three times, four times, et cetera, we find it far more interesting acquiring new customer. And we continue to have that. John - Leaders On Shopify: Well, I think there's a general addiction for spend a pound, make 10 pounds on Google shopping, bottom of funnel, and they can't, or even paying the same for the paying again for the same customer. All right. People are obsessed with just acquiring new customers through Google and aren't necessarily looking at the fun for full funnel, whether that be branding or even worse. How do I, as you just rightly said, re-engage my existing customers to spend more with me? All right. There is definitely, and I think that's Both the performance marketing agencies have created part of this problem, but Google's also created part of this problem because they've made Google shopping and everything so easy to switch on and spend money. But now it's getting so expensive to keep feeding the beast. I think people are starting to think, actually, we've got to look at our whole operation, our marketing and trading differently. yeah, it's interesting. The bot traffic's probably a whole separate podcast in itself. We've seen a huge amount of that on the increase. We don't have anything to do that. We've got different partners who block all that. But if people aren't using anything to block, they should definitely research that area because there's a significant amount of bot traffic that will just skew all your metrics and may probably end up making you make bad decisions. But you're ⁓ super well connected with Shopify. Where do you sort of? see Shopify itself heading and what exciting things do you see on the roadmap? And also what do you think is a bit overhyped? Nath Lomax - Quickfire: Yeah, I think the three pillars are probably AI, B2B and POS. think in terms of ⁓ of sale and retail and omnichannel, that's been a massive hype for Shopify for some time. And the more dinners we're doing, we do a lot of those dinners as you well know, and have kindly supported us over the years. What we're finding is at those dinners, a lot of the conversation is, ⁓ we've just opened Bricks and Mortar store. ⁓ we've just done pop-up, et cetera, et cetera. So that's certainly on the rise. And I expect more and more brands to be doing that. Customers are craving experiential one-to-one experiences and that continues to be the case and whether that's a knock on through COVID or something else or the whole noise around AI, people still love going into store. They still love having a human conversation. They still love that thing. So yeah, that is definitely something that I'm seeing more and more of in terms of B2B, particularly on Shopify, more and more people are looking at different channels and going, okay, we can do the internationalization route, which is a big growth lever and more and more brands are looking to go into new territories. But actually, What about if we open this new channel and had a wholesale arm or something similar? So that's quite interesting. the, third is obviously AI and the investment Shopify is making in AI. They continue to bring out new features as something called Shopify additions. but well worth having a look every, well twice a year, they bring out a raft of new features. and it constantly leans into this AI thing. I think ⁓ the future for agencies doing naught to 10 K builds probably gone or going. I imagine more and more people will use AI to get there. I think if your head of marketing, head of Ecom, et cetera, and someone says, right, there's a 60 grand budget, a hundred grand budget, 200 grand budget, and you go and put it all into AI to build a store. I can't see anyone wanting that accountability. We've just rolled out a policy at our office, which is by all means use all the AI tools you want to use, but the output from this tool is on your head. Okay. So you must understand it. You must know it inside out. You must make sure you're comfortable with it because if it's wrong, it's on you. And I think that's really important is at the moment people just go there and they're, it's Claude's fault. it's ChatGPT's fault. Well, they're not going to be standing up in the board meeting ⁓ justifying. John - Leaders On Shopify: Yeah. Well, I think what's interesting for business owners like us, and if you're curious and smart, it unlocks a whole load of opportunities to scratch itches and validate ideas really quickly. If you're a little bit lazy, ⁓ ⁓ that bright, it's a it's a really dangerous tool because that's it as a shortcut, potentially. And we've seen it in some of our client teams ⁓ the world. Claude says this, yeah, but Claude hasn't got any context and Claude hasn't got this and have you actually read what it's saying? The numbers aren't even right. So ⁓ it's both and scary. ⁓ And ⁓ saw post from a friend of mine who runs a business called Wolf & Badger. ⁓ They sold their first thing in an agentic basket yesterday, How do you sort of see that evolving? And obviously, as we're in this Shopify world, Shopify is making this super easy for people. But what's your take on where this whole agentic commerce is? I suppose two sides here. People buying things in LLMs is one. And then there's me setting up my agent to keep an eye on that pair of Air Jordans that I want. And when it gets the right price, execute. What's your sort of take on this? And what are you advising clients? Nath Lomax - Quickfire: The rise in people buying from LLMs, I think is only gonna increase. And I would absolutely encourage brands to get the data structure right. Cause essentially that's where they're pulling from. And I have great conversations with various SEO partners that are talking about this a lot, which is essentially get the data and the integrity of the data in the right place. If you're gonna do anything like that's really important. Cause the LLM search is only gonna increase. Having said that, the whole piece about watching the Air Jordans or whatever and how soon they're gonna go. I think people still crave that endorphin of making the purchase. I can't see a world, and maybe I'm just naive, I can't see a world, certainly not for me, where someone else is physically making that transaction. I can see the monitoring, for sure, and trying to help. John - Leaders On Shopify: Then alert me when I'm ready to buy. Nath Lomax - Quickfire: Absolutely trigger the alert message me no problem, but am I telling my agent to go and make the transaction? No for two reasons one I still don't trust it but two I selfishly love the kick I get when I make the transaction and I would lose that if the agents making the transaction for me and you think of all these people that do like retail therapy etc and they just love shopping right that isn't gonna go anywhere so I don't think that the agents are necessarily gonna be buying but I do think the agents can be alerting and trying to watch when the price drops, et cetera, and get in at the best price. John - Leaders On Shopify: And then do you see a world if you can buy in the LLM, right, or now as you're gonna be able to buy in the Google search and this, that and the other, do we see a world where you could actually be a retailer and have no website and just have almost like a dark warehouse that just ships boxes? Nath Lomax - Quickfire: I mean, never say never. I think there will be some brands that do that. I still think most brands will stick with the website for the foreseeable, but I certainly think there'll be opportunities for brands to say, actually, do I need such an expensive website? Do I need such an expensive website? Or actually, can I just say, you know what? I've got products selling directly from Meta and I haven't needed to have a store. I've got products selling directly from LLMs. I've not needed to have a store. Yeah, quite possibly. I don't see it. I wonder. and this is just my opinion, but I wonder if there's gonna be a backlash at some point where we go too far and people just go, you know what, enough's enough. I don't want this. I still wanna transact. I still wanna go in store. I still wanna use a website. I don't know, maybe I'm just wishful thinking. John - Leaders On Shopify: I flip flop around a bit on this is I remember, I'm old enough to remember Nate, like before the internet. And like you buy your first thing online, it might've been a CD or a book or whatever. think, yeah, that's it. I get that. They can put that through my letterbox. And I sat there thinking nobody's ever gonna buy a pair of shoes online. That is ridiculous. Absolutely. You've got to try shoes on and you've got to do this and you've to do that. couple of what one of the previous podcasts we did, we interviewed Stuart Paver, Paver shoes and Jones the bootmaker and he started selling shoes online in 1998. He reckons he might be one of the first people to sell shoes online. And he was like, No, I was always just convinced about this not gonna be he was sort of saying, this isn't going to replace the shop. But it gives people an alternative. And I think Nath Lomax - Quickfire: Yeah, that was awesome. John - Leaders On Shopify: Is all this LLM transactions and agentic actually just another alternative to put your product in front of the customer where they are? I some people are still going to to the high street. The internet didn't kill the high street. The high streets had to evolve and make it more experiential and make it more quality. Actually, I've seen a lot of good towns, the high street, I think has improved because they're competing and trying to get reasons to people come in the stores. And then I think, are we going to have to think about, ⁓ why is our website a joyful place to be? And actually making it more of an experience when you buy the product, rather than just, I think the LLM is all about just the transaction. Nath Lomax - Quickfire: I think that's a really nice way of putting it. I think that is something we're going to see more and more is commerce everywhere and anywhere at a place that suits you. And you actually see the rise in WhatsApp and what's happening there with brands and people are going, actually, for me, I love using WhatsApp as a tool. And if I can buy, if I can transact, if I can engage with stuff just in WhatsApp as a place I like, amazing. But for you, that might be totally different. And so it's commerce to a place that suits me and a place that suits you. We might be buying from the same brand. but we might transact in totally different ways. And I think the more flexibility we have, the better chance we've got of retaining that customer. John - Leaders On Shopify: Yeah. And so just sort of continuing the AI, told me a bit about what you're doing with your team. We did the same. We're all in on Claude code and we've given them training. We've got a policy, but it's absolutely, you've got to own the output and you've got to actually read it and believe it. if we sort of take a step back, the other ones, ⁓ my opinion right now, Claude design isn't that much cop for doing proper images. We're still playing around with bits with like Nano, Banana and Gemini. That seems to be the best. What's your view? ⁓ as an agency and also have you got stories of different clients who are pro AI versus and I'll give you one example. The ⁓ company, average order value is like 40 pounds. They've got hundreds and hundreds of products. They can't afford to go do all the situational photo shoots in South Africa. And actually, decent prompting of AI is a really unlock loads of situational shots. And you'll know as I do, if you've got an in situ shot and a flat product shot on a white background, the in situ shot will help conversion, right? We know this, we've all tested it. We don't need to have a PhD in data science. what's your view, I suppose, as an agency? have you got examples of clients who are all in, and have also you got examples of clients who are like, no, we're going to stick with the humans? Nath Lomax - Quickfire: Yeah, I think the, the big thing to me that tip this was the Andromeda update on Meta and the need to basically create a content machine. now thousands of creatives, not singles of creatives. And therefore there is no way to do that enough at human scale. And I was in this, doing this talk in Belgium in the week. And there's another chap speaking. It was fascinating. It was like the future is just content machines. where we're going, Now for me, I have some brands that are replacing apps within their tech stack through the use of AI. John - Leaders On Shopify: Yeah. Nath Lomax - Quickfire: and using tools at base 44, et cetera, I have some other clients that why I have a client I'm speaking to who's gone to an agency to build a store, a brand experience agency that'd be beautiful brands, probably don't have development in house. They've taken on development work. They've done it all in AI. You can see the AI kind of ⁓ prompts, And then the whole thing been built within a page rather than a template. And it's all quite a mess and you just go, okay, like there's a time and a place for AI and replacing the whole build process probably isn't the one. So we'll see where that one gets to and what they want to do and if they manage to rectify it. But yeah, there's so there's some brands that are doing really well and there's a skincare brand I'm thinking of in particular. And it all depends on the person, right? The person driving it. This guy I'm thinking of, He will spend weekends, evenings, going down those rabbit holes, finding that and he enjoys it. Right. Enjoys it. So it's not on the time sheet. He just go, he just plays and plays and plays and refines, et cetera. So that's a great example, doing well, fill your boots. AI is going to really help. I read a brilliant article in Moneyweek the other day that said how much of this AI noise and energy and activity is, is affecting the P and L and actually washing through into profitability. And I'd love anyone to come and tell me like, Oh, we've saved X amount of thousands or millions of pounds through the use of AI. haven't seen it yet. on the flip side, there are a couple of, maybe poorer stories of people like just solely relying on AI and you'll see that quite a lot of it in RFP responses and agency response. I'm sure you've seen it as well. right. You're just. John - Leaders On Shopify: ⁓ we had an NDA and a contract someone was trying to do that. They clearly just whacked it through chat GPT and there's no way I'm going to assign the whole IP of my business to them and then he ⁓ hang on. I asked my team to do it. And I get, he's like, did you read it? And then I got this apologetic email, but yeah, it's scary. Nath Lomax - Quickfire: It's madness, right? And I think actually that is the, that is the worry. Having said that, I do fundamentally think it's my opinion AI is only going to get better. And therefore I feel like we are at the floor at the moment of where it's going to be. So if you think what it can do now and you think where it's going, I still harp on about this piece of co-piloting like AI unbelievable tool to be your assistant, to be your right-hand person, to support you, to save time. Amazing. Is that time then being diverted into more revenue generating activities or John - Leaders On Shopify: Well, that was, yeah, that's the thing with like, if you can't afford to do photo shoots, but you can, you can prompt to get some photo shoot type content that will help you convert and increase your margins and overall performance of your sessions to your site. Probably a good thing, but yeah, AI for AI sake. you really know what you're doing and going down a rabbit hole is probably not a thing. And so just coming to a close, who are top three brands that you're sort of journeys you're most proud of having supported? Nath Lomax - Quickfire: Tala, definitely, I think what they've done is incredible. again, all these people that we've played a very small part, but it's been nice to play a part. So Tala would be one of them. The Bartra Journey, we've got in the trenches with them and supported them. And a lot of people see massive brands and think, ⁓ there must be millions to do that. And I can show you it's not. It's been a lot of hard work, sweat and tears and often not a lot of millions, but they're just really lovely people. the third, probably the Fourth Glade journey has been one that I'm incredibly proud of. We've got a great relationship with them. And I've talked about this before, actually, the agency hasn't always got it right. And I think when it hasn't got it right, the reason we've got the depth of relationship is because we've come forward, admitted not getting it right and rectified it and taken ownership. And I think that's what people look for is anyone that goes into agency relationship thinking it's going to be perfect 100 % of the time is naive, right? It doesn't work. John - Leaders On Shopify: Yeah, yeah, I've grown and exit different agencies in the past. ⁓ We had a disaster once I had a client it was PPC campaign for a very big retail. So why did you just spend 50,000 pounds on a product that we don't have in stock? Right. And it's like, well, you can't you can't start blaming other people. All right, they're paying you for a service. It is about that trust but actually sometimes I know this sounds daft is that ownership and that in that ⁓ that awkwardness builds and strengthens a relationship over time. it's sometimes when everything just goes perfect all the time you get to the end. I know that yet you always want that but sometimes when there's been friction and problems and challenges and you've come through it together. I think you'll end up in a better stronger place. Nath Lomax - Quickfire: Yeah, great. Now I think most people are reasonable people, right? And they realize that these things happen and you just go actually like, yeah, I'm sorry, this happened and this is what we're going to solve it. And they go, actually, you know what? Like if we were in your position, we'd do similar and you go, fair enough. John - Leaders On Shopify: And you're working with some bigger brands, you wanna work with certain brands and you sort of working out well, what is the right size And ⁓ the world, there's a lot of discussion around headless versus compostable. And it's like, in your mind is headless worth the effort? Is it a thing? ⁓ And ⁓ always ⁓ take, because is producing some great themes now. ⁓ They can do a lot of stuff. Then there's an app, I know you've been ⁓ questioned before about, just installing too many And actually that's a separate problem. ⁓ So we can get into that matter of your view on headless? if someone comes to you and said, I want to go totally headless, is that an exciting opportunity or do you go, ⁓ why would you want to do that? Nath Lomax - Quickfire: Yeah. Yeah, I personally would say what's the business case. think a lot of people were blinded by the headless hype, a bit like some of them are with the AI hype, right? And you go, it has to be fully AI enabled. Why is that? It has to be headless. Why is that? What's the business case? the response will, it has to be fast. Okay. Well, what is faster? Like, okay, it has to load in under two seconds. Okay. Well, could that be achieved by not maybe a theme off the shelf, but maybe a framework or something similar like. Most agencies at a certain size will have their own framework, which will be stripped back version of Dawn or Horizons or similar. And you just go, well, could that achieve it? Because most headless migration quotes I'm hearing are north of 150 grand. Right? So I'm going, okay, if that's the case, if you were to spend 150 grand on this thing over here, what's the opportunity cost? And you go, actually, you know what? I'm still going to go ahead. No problem at all versus now I know that I could have a store and 12 months support. and X amount of access to apps and X amount more budget to spend on driving traffic, et cetera, for the same budget. So I would always just ask people like, tell me the business case, help me better understand. And then yeah, no work for your brand. I think a headless experience is a really good route versus personally I just can't see it. John - Leaders On Shopify: Yeah. And you, you, you partner with lots of different apps and, when you're taking on border migration, what are the sort of go-to apps either? And I know people are just like the Klaviyos or this or that and the other, but what are the sort of maybe a bit left field apps that people should be looking at that are really going to help improve either performance or conversion Nath Lomax - Quickfire: I think there's a couple of ones that stand out to me at the moment. I'm interested on the go quick journey and what they're doing with WhatsApp. And I think more and more brands, if you looked at it, you go, I've got to have Meta sorted, I've got to have email sorted, maybe SMS even with the tentative or something similar, but perhaps they wouldn't consider WhatsApp. And I see the open rates of emails at the moment. go, okay, is that another channel we should be thinking of almost by default? So I'm quite interested by that journey. Operational efficiency is another thing. A lot of the brands I'm talking to are looking for profitability, not just revenue. So we go, okay, is there like the guys at Helm? like could they come and do an audit operation and say, actually, is there some kind of warehouse management system or something else that can come in and drive a bit of efficiency in the business? Outside of that, mean, ⁓ the search and merge thing is interesting. customer service, I'd like think most people are using Gorgias. If you're not, I'd question why, particularly to try and centralize some of those tickets from all different channels. Remember, people are trying to communicate on a platform that suits them. So you'd have 20 people. trying to get in touch on Instagram and 15 on WhatsApp and 10 via the phone and six via email. Like how do we just bring them into one place? Yeah, search emerge is interesting. I think Shopify's own functionality for search emerge is quite interesting. Having said that, I'm seeing more and more people going, actually we want a little bit more than this and maybe there's an opportunity. I was talking to the guys at Athos the other week. That's quite interesting. Yeah, I think loyalty is another thing. I think if most of the brands I'm talking to at the moment are in the market for some kind of loyalty solution. And at the moment we're going, could you use Shopify store credit? It's quite an interesting way to incentivize people to say, actually there's physical cash sat here, like come and unlock it. Or you're going to use a loyalty line or a Yopper or a Leet or something similar, like perhaps get down that route. So yeah, there's, it's a really exciting time at the moment. The one caution I would have with apps is, I'd say like there comes a point where once you've got more than probably 15, you're like, do you need any more? John - Leaders On Shopify: Well, I was talking to a brand like an onboarding conversation and he was going, well, ⁓ once a quarter, I go all the apps I've installed and actually am I getting value? Do I need it? Am I using it? Cause it's a bit like even just the apps on your phone, end up signing up to some sort of subscription and actually are you getting value? Is anybody using it? Is it actually even slowing down my site? Cause you often see that the more, things people start installing that could affect. Nath Lomax - Quickfire: Thank John - Leaders On Shopify: So, right, last couple of questions, Nate A brand you don't work with, but you really admire and respect in terms of what they've done on Shopify. Nath Lomax - Quickfire: think like Dusty, I think I them at an event once and I really liked what they were doing and I thought actually that's a really cool brand. I ⁓ also, there was another I I know the whole food and drink some great brands coming through at the moment. They don't always have to be massive brands. I think that's the thing. Like we can build a fantastic business. without having every brand as a household brand. We'd be very lucky to work with some amazing household brands, but some of our best clients and most successful clients, you look at Canon's UK, gymnastics equipment stuff like that, or perhaps Morelli, or some of these people that the people might have heard of, right? But they're fabulous people. They're really nice to work with. They understand like I'd soon to have an agency of 50 of them than 50 household brands that are shouting up and down every time that something's not right. So I would say I'd urge people when they're thinking about dream clients, like don't just think about the profile and the LinkedIn kudos. Think about the operational headache to the team. And actually when you add up those hours, are they actually profitable to the business? John - Leaders On Shopify: We should do which clients put client profitability report pretty obvious report also like team client versus happiness report. All right. So which clients do you love working on which clients drive you mad and I bet you If you did that report, the clients you're losing money on the team don't like working on. And actually it's a simple business decision ⁓ is an agency's very rarely fire clients. the bigger names are more demanding or less reasonable and probably drove you on a harder bargain. So well, thank you very much for coming on. If people want to find you or find Quickfire, where can they find you? How can they get in touch? Nath Lomax - Quickfire: Yeah, probably LinkedIn, I'd say is the best way. mean, Quickfire the website, you can in touch, but no, definitely just LinkedIn, Nathan Lomax. I'm always chatting to people. love to have a chat. We've got a WhatsApp community of 150 brands that we're chatting to all the time. We've run plenty of events. Always welcome to come along to those. But yeah, I think what you're doing on this podcast is brilliant. And I hope the half hour or so has been useful and people can take some learnings from it. Even just one thing will be happy days. Thanks for having me. John - Leaders On Shopify: Well, thank you for coming on.