Latest / Beheaded / Witch, Please: The First Irish Witch Trial | Petronilla de Meath

Transcript

Witch, Please: The First Irish Witch Trial | Petronilla de Meath · Beheaded

0:04
SPEAKER_00: Hello, and welcome to Beheaded.
0:06
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to season seven, episode 11.
0:09
SPEAKER_00: I'm Megan Moore.
0:10
SPEAKER_01: And I'm Elizabeth Black.
0:11
SPEAKER_01: I'm officially in my late 30s.
0:14
SPEAKER_01: You know why?
0:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I do.
0:15
SPEAKER_01: I saw the Amazon man come.
0:18
SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited.
0:20
SPEAKER_01: When I got to Megan's, she made a wonderful dinner, first of all.
0:23
SPEAKER_01: Bravo.
0:24
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
0:25
SPEAKER_01: I won't get into it yet, but we have an Irish themed evening.
0:28
SPEAKER_01: And so she made this like Irish charcuterie board with soda bread and like a loaded baked potato.
0:34
SPEAKER_01: Fantastique.
0:35
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
0:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, so we were like enjoying that, like having like, you know, some drinks and some laughs.
0:41
SPEAKER_01: And she goes, I cannot wait for my Amazon package to be delivered.
0:45
SPEAKER_01: And I'm thinking of something relevant to the episode or like particularly cool for what we do.
0:50
SPEAKER_01: She's like, no, no, these are orthopedic shoes.
0:54
SPEAKER_00: Boom.
0:55
SPEAKER_01: Damn.
0:56
SPEAKER_01: Look at those such things.
0:57
SPEAKER_00: Okay, if you're on the YouTube, I got my first pair of orthopedic sandals, and I don't know how I've lived without them.
1:03
SPEAKER_00: They don't look old lady-ish.
1:05
SPEAKER_00: They've got great arch support.
1:07
SPEAKER_00: They're very comfortable.
1:08
SPEAKER_00: I'm so excited for these.
1:09
SPEAKER_00: I can go so far in them.
1:11
SPEAKER_00: What prompted you to find these and make this decision?
1:16
SPEAKER_00: I don't have knee pain or anything.
1:18
SPEAKER_00: I just got tired of having flat sandals in summer with no arch support.
1:23
SPEAKER_01: But were you like walking around in like shitty flip-flops and you were like, I need better shoes?
1:28
SPEAKER_00: Wall shoes.
1:29
SPEAKER_01: But like, is that it?
1:30
SPEAKER_01: Is that the end of the story?
1:31
SPEAKER_01: Like you're like, I want a comfy shoes.
1:33
SPEAKER_00: I wanted I wanted really comfortable sandals and I did my research.
1:37
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
1:37
SPEAKER_01: What did you Google first?
1:40
SPEAKER_00: What is a comfortable orthopedic shoe that doesn't look like it belongs to a 70-year-old woman?
1:46
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
1:47
SPEAKER_00: Boom, baby.
1:48
SPEAKER_00: Execute.
1:49
SPEAKER_00: I'm not, I'm not a promoter.
1:51
SPEAKER_00: I'm not a marketer in any way, but these are towels.
1:54
SPEAKER_01: They do look like a bird.
1:56
SPEAKER_00: I have never, I know.
1:58
SPEAKER_00: I I had to commit to these.
2:00
SPEAKER_00: These were like an investment, these shoes.
2:02
SPEAKER_00: They really don't look like that.
2:03
SPEAKER_00: I'm talking about them so much because it took me like six months to pull the trigger and finally buy them.
2:08
SPEAKER_01: I pictured like nun shoes that are like cloth sandals.
2:12
SPEAKER_00: Oh, like those, like um, like the the sneaker Mary Jane style.
2:16
SPEAKER_00: Kind of, yes.
2:17
SPEAKER_00: Like those?
2:18
SPEAKER_00: Yes, similar.
2:19
SPEAKER_00: I mean, this is a gateway.
2:20
SPEAKER_00: This is a gateway.
2:21
SPEAKER_00: To what?
2:22
SPEAKER_00: To the sneaker Mary Jane style.
2:25
SPEAKER_00: No, they're just like strappy sandals, but they are so comfortable.
2:29
SPEAKER_00: I'm walking on a cloud, and now I can go so far, and nothing can stop me.
2:34
SPEAKER_00: My shoe won't stop me.
2:36
SPEAKER_00: And you're next.
2:37
SPEAKER_00: You're gonna get your orthopedic sandals next.
2:40
SPEAKER_00: Older than you.
2:40
SPEAKER_00: I should already have.
2:42
SPEAKER_00: You should.
2:42
SPEAKER_00: You're poor knees.
2:43
SPEAKER_00: Have you even considered the state of your joints?
2:46
SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, I run a lot, so I consider the joint pain all the time.
2:52
SPEAKER_00: You go to Roadrunner, right?
2:53
SPEAKER_00: And you get your foot fitted.
2:55
SPEAKER_01: I have done that.
2:56
SPEAKER_01: I haven't done that in a while.
2:57
SPEAKER_01: Roadrunner is a running shoe place in Arizona, if you don't know that.
3:01
SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, I've done the running analysis and the shoe footing.
3:05
SPEAKER_01: Foot analysis.
3:06
SPEAKER_01: Shoe fitting.
3:07
SPEAKER_01: The the okay, I was pissed because like the last time I went was probably three years ago.
3:12
SPEAKER_01: And I didn't go to Roadrunner.
3:14
SPEAKER_01: I went to a different store that I shall not name.
3:16
SPEAKER_01: And I was really angry because I walked out with probably the worst pair of shoes ever.
3:21
SPEAKER_01: I was like talking to this girl who was a quote unquote like endurance athlete.
3:25
SPEAKER_01: She was on the website and all that.
3:27
SPEAKER_01: Again, won't say names.
3:29
SPEAKER_01: But feeling some resentments here.
3:31
SPEAKER_01: She did.
3:32
SPEAKER_01: I'm convinced she fucked up my feet.
3:34
SPEAKER_01: I've had like foot problems since.
3:35
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
3:36
SPEAKER_01: Since I talked about her.
3:38
SPEAKER_01: I've had like foot problems.
3:39
SPEAKER_01: And she convinced me to do a size and a half larger than I normally do.
3:43
SPEAKER_01: That's weird.
3:44
SPEAKER_01: Which for runners, you want to do a slightly larger shoe because you're big jump.
3:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, your feet swell.
3:49
SPEAKER_01: So you're like half a size, you know, maybe a full.
3:51
SPEAKER_01: She got like a half a size and a half.
3:54
SPEAKER_01: I was in, I literally ended up like switching my shoes.
3:57
SPEAKER_01: I did like a trade with somebody who had other running shoes I wanted.
4:00
SPEAKER_01: And they're like, oh, yours are cute.
4:01
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, great, like, like let's trade.
4:03
SPEAKER_01: Like like middle school lunch.
4:04
SPEAKER_01: I was like, let's trade.
4:06
SPEAKER_01: And I was much happier with the new shoes, but I'm convinced that lady fucked up my feet.
4:10
SPEAKER_00: Probably.
4:11
SPEAKER_00: I'm also like, I'm a little embarrassed right now that our banter has about orthopedic shoes.
4:18
SPEAKER_00: Our feet and our shoes.
4:19
SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry, everyone's probably fast.
4:22
SPEAKER_00: Like, you know how you do like the times five talk?
4:24
SPEAKER_00: Like plus 30 seconds.
4:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
4:27
SPEAKER_00: Um, anyways, that's literally the only thing going on in my life is is my new shoes I'm so excited for.
4:33
SPEAKER_00: Um I think that's exciting.
4:35
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
4:35
SPEAKER_00: We're entering a new stage.
4:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you have more exciting things probably than me.
4:39
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I we just luckily we we're finishing the season correctly where we're supposed to meet on a regular cadence.
4:46
SPEAKER_01: So I don't know why we have nothing new to talk about.
4:48
SPEAKER_01: Shoes are important.
4:49
SPEAKER_01: We're friendly, you know, yeah, meeting regularly.
4:53
SPEAKER_01: I did tell Megan that I just went to a cool playslash musical um of Ever After.
5:00
SPEAKER_00: I'm so jealous.
5:01
SPEAKER_01: I think we've probably talked about the movie Ever After on the show.
5:05
SPEAKER_01: But like it's probably top three movies of mine.
5:10
SPEAKER_01: I can see that.
5:11
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
5:12
SPEAKER_01: Like to you or to me?
5:14
SPEAKER_00: For you.
5:16
SPEAKER_00: I also I really love it, but I can tell because of all the quotes that you and I do.
5:23
SPEAKER_00: It is such a good movie.
5:25
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I would have recasted Drew Barrymore if I could do it again.
5:30
SPEAKER_00: Not like me personally.
5:31
SPEAKER_01: I used to think that.
5:32
SPEAKER_01: Like when I was younger, I really thought, like, eh, is Drew Barrymore the right fit?
5:37
SPEAKER_01: As I've gotten older, I can't see anyone else in that role, but maybe it's just because I'm so used to it.
5:41
SPEAKER_00: It did elevate her acting career.
5:43
SPEAKER_01: Totally, yes.
5:45
SPEAKER_01: And I just love the again, if you don't know you're living under a rock, you have to go see this movie.
5:50
SPEAKER_01: I know.
5:50
SPEAKER_01: I would hope if you like this show that you're a big ever after fan.
5:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
5:55
SPEAKER_01: But like I feel like it just reshaped the telling of Cinderella because it was more about like her empowerment and her being independent and her being like a fierce woman and not being helpless, like trying to be saved.
6:07
SPEAKER_01: And like even in the original story of Cinderella, it's like she's not really going to find love.
6:12
SPEAKER_01: She's going to a party.
6:13
SPEAKER_00: You know, it's a more realistic version.
6:15
SPEAKER_00: I mean, of course, some of it is still a little far fetched.
6:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
6:17
SPEAKER_01: But like she meets the prince beforehand.
6:19
SPEAKER_00: There's no magic involved.
6:20
SPEAKER_00: No, necessarily.
6:21
SPEAKER_01: There's no magic.
6:22
SPEAKER_01: It's all more so like, you know, she loves she loves books on science and philosophy, which utopia.
6:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, she loves utopia.
6:30
SPEAKER_01: Thomas More.
6:30
SPEAKER_01: Executed.
6:31
SPEAKER_01: Leonardo da Vinci's in it, which sadly, you know, those timelines don't match up.
6:35
SPEAKER_01: It's not quite like historically accurate.
6:38
SPEAKER_01: But anyway, the show was fantastic.
6:40
SPEAKER_01: If you're a Phoenix person, if you're an Arizona person, um, it is running at Phoenix Theater downtown.
6:47
SPEAKER_01: And it's like the one complaint I have is like it's really a musical.
6:52
SPEAKER_01: There's like 26 songs in it.
6:54
SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's a heavy musical.
6:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
6:55
SPEAKER_01: It's one of those things where you're like, that didn't need to really be a song.
6:59
SPEAKER_01: Like you could have just had the normal dialogue and it would have been fine.
7:03
SPEAKER_01: But like good show, great um singing, great costumes, great set design.
7:08
SPEAKER_01: And then my only other complaint is that like they didn't make people as mean as the movie.
7:14
SPEAKER_01: Like the stepmother and stepsisters are like pretty likable and like you're very empathetic towards them.
7:20
SPEAKER_01: And I'm sorry, I want to go in and fucking hate them.
7:23
SPEAKER_00: No, I agree.
7:24
SPEAKER_00: That's you're supposed to absolutely detest the stepsisters.
7:28
SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah.
7:28
SPEAKER_00: You want to sm at least Marguerite.
7:31
SPEAKER_00: Jacqueline is Jacqueline's great.
7:32
SPEAKER_00: Jacqueline.
7:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
7:33
SPEAKER_00: She's like the funny comic relief normally.
7:36
SPEAKER_00: And she's more empathetic to Ella.
7:39
SPEAKER_00: What's her name in the movie?
7:40
SPEAKER_00: Danielle.
7:40
SPEAKER_00: Danielle.
7:41
SPEAKER_01: Danielle de Barbarac.
7:43
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
7:43
SPEAKER_00: Nicole and her my mother Nicole.
7:45
SPEAKER_00: Nicole de Langre.
7:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
7:47
SPEAKER_00: I don't know why I thought her name was Ella.
7:49
SPEAKER_00: It seems from all the other renditions.
7:51
SPEAKER_00: The renditions of Cinderella.
7:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
7:54
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, no, that's weird.
7:56
SPEAKER_00: That's weird, that's weird cast.
7:58
SPEAKER_00: They made them too nice.
7:59
SPEAKER_00: Character making.
8:00
SPEAKER_01: Like Marguerite is supposed to be the bitchy stepsister that like Danielle punches in the face at one point because she's like awful.
8:06
SPEAKER_01: And they made her just kind of like silly and funny, and you don't really dislike her.
8:10
SPEAKER_01: And even the stepmother, they gave her a whole song called Pebble in My Shoe, which, if you know the movie, she says that to Cinderella.
8:18
SPEAKER_01: Like she says, you know, why would anyone love a pebble in their shoe?
8:20
SPEAKER_01: Like you're just an inconvenience.
8:22
SPEAKER_01: But they made it a song about like her struggle and her like, like, why should I care about your shit when I got my own shit to deal with?
8:29
SPEAKER_00: I want to listen to the soundtrack, maybe.
8:30
SPEAKER_01: I don't I wonder if it's on like streaming, because I don't know if this is a Phoenix local thing or if this is a bigger production.
8:36
SPEAKER_01: I thought it was a bigger production.
8:38
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
8:38
SPEAKER_01: It's a new musical.
8:40
SPEAKER_01: If you live in other cities and you know about the show, tell us.
8:43
SPEAKER_01: But Phoenix definitely made it sound like, oh, we created this show.
8:46
SPEAKER_01: Oh, really?
8:46
SPEAKER_01: That's what they made it sound like.
8:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
8:50
SPEAKER_01: Um, and if that's true, Phoenix, like step up your fucking game and make some fucking villains.
8:54
SPEAKER_01: That's all I have to say.
8:56
SPEAKER_00: Very, very weak villains.
8:57
SPEAKER_00: Um, they're all hot and tired, that's why.
9:01
SPEAKER_00: No one cares in the summertime.
9:03
SPEAKER_00: Everyone just show up.
9:04
SPEAKER_00: They're like, it's really fine.
9:07
SPEAKER_00: If she wants to go to the ball, I give up.
9:10
SPEAKER_00: I don't care.
9:11
SPEAKER_01: Oh, one more note that's really funny.
9:13
SPEAKER_01: Huh.
9:14
SPEAKER_01: Uh, if you've seen the movie again, Jacqueline, who's the other stepsister, goes to the ball.
9:18
SPEAKER_01: The nice one.
9:19
SPEAKER_01: The nice step-stepsister, and she is made to like be dressed like a horse.
9:24
SPEAKER_01: And she goes, I want it to be, I want it to be the peacock.
9:27
SPEAKER_01: And they're like, honestly, Danielle, the horse is one of God's most.
9:30
SPEAKER_01: Sorry, yes.
9:31
SPEAKER_01: Jacqueline, like, the horse is one of God's most noble creatures.
9:35
SPEAKER_00: See, and she she can quote this entire movie, and I'm not making this out.
9:38
SPEAKER_01: That was a bad quote, but I can do better.
9:40
SPEAKER_01: But anyway, um, but so they go to the ball and Jacqueline's a horse.
9:44
SPEAKER_01: And in the movie, it's funny because she meets a man who's also dressed like a horse.
9:48
SPEAKER_01: But in the theater rendition, they do a whole musical number that's like a horse dance.
9:53
SPEAKER_01: It feels unnecessary.
9:54
SPEAKER_01: But it no funny.
9:56
SPEAKER_01: Like, I thought it was gonna be like, okay, really, you need to do a horse dance.
9:59
SPEAKER_01: But the king is like the comic relief, and he gets involved and he's like, let's all be horses.
10:04
SPEAKER_01: And after the scene is over, he goes back to the prince and he's like, he's like, Henry, it was amazing.
10:09
SPEAKER_01: We were horses, and our hands became hooves.
10:12
SPEAKER_01: Like, he's just it's so funny.
10:14
SPEAKER_01: And again, I'm not doing it justice, but if you're interested in this, you're really selling it.
10:18
SPEAKER_01: It's so funny, and you gotta love the horse dance, and you gotta like hashtag.
10:21
SPEAKER_00: Maybe I'll have to see if I can find this horse this horse dance somewhere.
10:25
SPEAKER_01: That's a good one.
10:26
SPEAKER_00: Or I can just see it.
10:27
SPEAKER_00: You know what was a really good rendition of Cinderella is The Ugly Stepsister.
10:33
SPEAKER_00: It's on I never saw it.
10:35
SPEAKER_00: I think it's it's on Disney Plus.
10:37
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
10:37
SPEAKER_00: It's a foreign film.
10:40
SPEAKER_00: I think it's Polish.
10:43
SPEAKER_00: I could be totally wrong on that.
10:45
SPEAKER_00: Is it recent?
10:46
SPEAKER_00: It's recent and it's grotesque.
10:48
SPEAKER_00: It's more of like a dark, it's like a dark, it's like a horror comedy sort, sort of.
10:55
SPEAKER_00: It's uh, it's very grotesque.
10:57
SPEAKER_00: Like you have to have a strong stomach to watch this because it's really good.
11:02
SPEAKER_00: Oh it I really liked it.
11:04
SPEAKER_00: They were actually even up for I think best costume or something at the Oscars.
11:08
SPEAKER_01: I think I've seen parts of this.
11:10
SPEAKER_00: And not to give anything away, okay, but they stick very closely to the Brother's Grimm version.
11:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
11:16
SPEAKER_00: Which of course has a lot of like chopping of body parts and things.
11:20
SPEAKER_00: Chop off your toes to fit in the slipper.
11:22
SPEAKER_00: It's realistically grotesque, this movie.
11:26
SPEAKER_00: And it's through the point of view of the stepsister.
11:28
SPEAKER_00: I like that.
11:29
SPEAKER_00: It's you should check it out.
11:31
SPEAKER_00: If you're into really creepy, gross things and you're okay with that.
11:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
11:35
SPEAKER_00: I watched it and my mouth was just hanging open the whole time.
11:38
SPEAKER_00: I was like, this is amazingly gross.
11:41
SPEAKER_01: I love it.
11:42
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
11:42
SPEAKER_01: I feel like certain like fairy tales don't get old because there's so many ways to retell them.
11:46
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
11:47
SPEAKER_01: And to tell them from other characters' points of view.
11:49
SPEAKER_01: Anyway, all perspective, but many good renditions, and you gotta love it.
11:53
SPEAKER_00: Okay, ready for the transition of the evening?
11:55
SPEAKER_00: I'd love to hear it.
11:56
SPEAKER_00: I'm getting better at these.
11:57
SPEAKER_00: I like it.
11:58
SPEAKER_00: So folklore.
12:00
SPEAKER_02: Ah.
12:01
SPEAKER_00: Like Cinderella.
12:03
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
12:04
SPEAKER_00: Fairy tales.
12:05
SPEAKER_02: We.
12:06
SPEAKER_00: There is a land that is known for their folklore and their fairy tales.
12:12
SPEAKER_00: What land does that make?
12:13
SPEAKER_00: That is the land of the Irish.
12:15
SPEAKER_00: Ooh, the Green Isle.
12:17
SPEAKER_00: Was that that was kind of a rocky transition.
12:19
SPEAKER_00: It works.
12:20
SPEAKER_00: I tried.
12:21
SPEAKER_00: It was mystical.
12:22
SPEAKER_00: I tried to get it to fit.
12:24
SPEAKER_00: I like it.
12:25
SPEAKER_00: Tonight's execution is Irish themed.
12:27
SPEAKER_00: It is.
12:28
SPEAKER_00: So as Elizabeth was saying, we always love to, you know, of course, plan our dinners and our food around our theme of the evening.
12:35
SPEAKER_00: So um, yeah, I made some soda bread for tonight.
12:38
SPEAKER_00: Technically, beer bread, but I substitute the beer for soda water, which you can do and it worked just fine.
12:43
SPEAKER_00: It was delicious.
12:44
SPEAKER_00: Um with some carry gold butter.
12:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, carry gold butter, carry gold cheese, uh, did some potatoes.
12:52
SPEAKER_00: Yummy.
12:53
SPEAKER_00: It was extremely tired.
12:54
SPEAKER_00: Celtic music on in the background.
12:57
SPEAKER_02: Love it.
12:57
SPEAKER_00: Um but we are gonna be transported to medieval Ireland.
13:02
SPEAKER_00: Welcome.
13:02
SPEAKER_00: 1300s.
13:04
SPEAKER_01: And our lady of the evening, her name is Petronila de Meath.
13:10
SPEAKER_01: There's different versions of her last name.
13:12
SPEAKER_01: I think Meath is more so where she was born.
13:15
SPEAKER_01: But again, for our episode, we're gonna just refer to her as Petronila.
13:19
SPEAKER_01: Sounds kind of like a chemical.
13:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the petrol station is what they say, right, in Europe.
13:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
13:26
SPEAKER_01: Instead of going to the gas station, you go get petrol.
13:28
SPEAKER_00: The Petronila station.
13:29
SPEAKER_00: The petronila station.
13:31
SPEAKER_00: I'm probably gonna forget her name.
13:32
SPEAKER_00: I have a I I'm gonna have to keep referencing it.
13:35
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
13:35
SPEAKER_00: Think of it like not gonna call her petrol.
13:38
SPEAKER_00: But petronelia.
13:39
SPEAKER_01: Anyway, but petronilla, um, she was born in the county of Meath.
13:44
SPEAKER_01: Again, that's why she's Petronilla de Meath, um, in Ireland.
13:48
SPEAKER_01: But she moved to Kilkenny, Ireland, and she worked as a maidservant and companion to a very wealthy woman in town whose name was Alice Alice Kettler.
14:00
SPEAKER_01: And Alice has a very interesting story.
14:02
SPEAKER_01: Obviously, unfortunately, as we know through many of these stories, you know, the the poor and the destitute, we don't know a ton about their early life and where they come from, but we know a lot about the wealthy people.
14:13
SPEAKER_01: Um, so we're gonna kind of get into Alice's story and then tie it back into Petronilia's.
14:18
SPEAKER_01: So Alice was, again, a wealthy woman um who had been married four times at this point.
14:24
SPEAKER_00: It's like almost as much as Henry VIII.
14:27
SPEAKER_00: Literally, yeah.
14:28
SPEAKER_00: They gave him a hard time.
14:29
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
14:30
SPEAKER_01: And Petronilia, again, we don't know exactly the day she was born, even though she was a wealthy woman and a lot of this should be documented.
14:37
SPEAKER_01: But we think she was born somewhere around the mid-1200s.
14:41
SPEAKER_01: So again, we're very medieval Ireland.
14:44
SPEAKER_01: So petronilia was young.
14:45
SPEAKER_01: She was born probably around 1300.
14:48
SPEAKER_01: Um, but Alice was far older by about probably 40 years.
14:53
SPEAKER_01: So she's on her fourth marriage, and just to give you a quick rundown of her previous marriages, she first married this man named William, who is a wealthy merchant and a moneylender.
15:04
SPEAKER_00: Not just William, William Outlaw.
15:07
SPEAKER_00: Yes, last name is that, especially for being Irish, too.
15:10
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't seem like a very Irish name.
15:12
SPEAKER_00: No.
15:13
SPEAKER_00: That's a cool name, William Outlaw.
15:15
SPEAKER_01: It reminds me of, I think, Robin Hood when they say, like, oh, you have an outlaw for an in-law.
15:21
SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Bill about it.
15:22
SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, so William Outlaw was the first husband, very wealthy, and she has a habit of amassing wealth through all of her marriages.
15:30
SPEAKER_00: Of course, as a smart woman should.
15:32
SPEAKER_01: Just know that.
15:33
SPEAKER_01: Second husband, his name is Adam.
15:36
SPEAKER_01: He's also a moneylender.
15:38
SPEAKER_01: And then she marries a man named Richard.
15:41
SPEAKER_01: All of these husbands die under very mysterious circumstances.
15:47
SPEAKER_01: So some of them fall ill, like they're very clearly not doing well by the end of their life, and not just because they're dying, like something else is wrong with them, clearly.
15:58
SPEAKER_01: And every time a husband dies, somehow this pads her like pocketbook even more.
16:05
SPEAKER_01: And not just her, but she's slowly funneling money to her eldest son, who's also his name is William.
16:12
SPEAKER_01: So he's like her eldest son.
16:14
SPEAKER_01: And every time a husband dies, she's like modifying her will slightly to make sure her eldest son William gets a big chunk of change.
16:22
SPEAKER_00: Right.
16:23
SPEAKER_00: And this William, William Jr.
16:25
SPEAKER_00: we'll call him, but he's also William Outlaw.
16:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
16:28
SPEAKER_00: He she had multiple stepkids from all of her husbands, but William was her only true blood son.
16:35
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
16:35
SPEAKER_00: Right.
16:35
SPEAKER_00: So I mean, kind of played played favoritism there.
16:39
SPEAKER_00: And the officials were clearly onto her.
16:43
SPEAKER_00: They were starting to put a spotlight on her.
16:45
SPEAKER_00: And I actually want to go back a little bit to when she was with her second husband, Adam.
16:51
SPEAKER_00: So the year was 1302, and there was already suspicion growing that perhaps Adam and Alice were the reason why her first husband was dead.
17:04
SPEAKER_00: They were accusing her of homicide.
17:06
SPEAKER_00: And in thus doing so in these accusations of homicide, they truly believed that her sum of money that she acquired from the first marriage should actually be forfeited to the crown and wasn't hers, and it should be, you know, taken lawfully from her as there was this proceeding, hopefully going to unfold for murder.
17:28
SPEAKER_00: It was a lot of money.
17:29
SPEAKER_02: No.
17:30
SPEAKER_00: It was 3,000 pounds in that era back in 1302.
17:35
SPEAKER_00: Right.
17:35
SPEAKER_00: We did the math.
17:37
SPEAKER_00: That is it's a pretty big range because, of course, like the cost of inflation is so hard to determine all the way from the 1300s.
17:47
SPEAKER_00: Right.
17:47
SPEAKER_00: But to put that into American US dollars now, that could be anywhere from about two and a half to seven million dollars is how much they confiscated from her.
18:00
SPEAKER_00: That's a lot of money.
18:01
SPEAKER_00: Saying you do not deserve this money because we think that you actually killed your husband to get this money.
18:07
SPEAKER_00: Right.
18:08
SPEAKER_00: This is obviously gonna cause a huge scene for something that large.
18:12
SPEAKER_00: I think nowadays, if there was a dispute over seven million dollars, like if somebody was accused of killing their spouse and obtaining this money, I think that would be really big news.
18:23
SPEAKER_00: Right.
18:23
SPEAKER_00: As it was back then.
18:25
SPEAKER_00: It was so big, in fact, that King Edward I got involved.
18:29
SPEAKER_00: Jeez.
18:30
SPEAKER_00: Again, this is an English colony.
18:32
SPEAKER_00: This is part of the UK, so the England king is ruling over Ireland.
18:36
SPEAKER_00: Right.
18:36
SPEAKER_01: Which says a lot that the king himself had to get involved.
18:40
SPEAKER_01: It was that high profile of a scenario and that big amount of money that the king had to insert himself.
18:46
SPEAKER_01: Like this isn't just local court description.
18:48
SPEAKER_00: She's not your average innkeeper of a woman.
18:50
SPEAKER_00: No.
18:51
SPEAKER_00: She is working it.
18:53
SPEAKER_00: So the king actually sides with Alice and Adam.
18:57
SPEAKER_00: So Alice's defense is it's complete horseshit that they're accusing me of killing my husband.
19:05
SPEAKER_00: All of that is false accusations.
19:07
SPEAKER_00: And they basically stole from me this 3,000 pounds because it was never the official's right to obtain that.
19:15
SPEAKER_00: Of course, the law is gonna say we had every right to go in and take that money.
19:18
SPEAKER_00: But the king sides with Alice and Adam and they get their money back.
19:22
SPEAKER_00: So she's an incredibly she's a millionaire back then, Jeremy.
19:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, very wealthy woman.
19:28
SPEAKER_01: And some people think that because she was, you know, beautiful and charming and intelligent and obviously business savvy for making these types of moves, that maybe people in her town were very naturally kind of jealous and suspicious of her.
19:43
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
19:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, especially because like two of her husbands were moneylenders.
19:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:47
SPEAKER_01: And moneylenders themselves, people are already suspicious of.
19:50
SPEAKER_00: They're like, all right, like, are they, you know, they need them when they need them, but then they're kind of seen as the like scammers, you know.
19:57
SPEAKER_00: I think the locals who held a lot of resentment.
20:01
SPEAKER_00: And she already wasn't making a great name for herself.
20:05
SPEAKER_00: Right.
20:05
SPEAKER_00: She was already very controversial in the fact that the king had to get involved in her lawsuits and potentially she killed her husband, at least the first one they accused her of.
20:16
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
20:17
SPEAKER_00: But it never actually went to court.
20:18
SPEAKER_00: Like he dropped all the king, made sure all of those charges were dropped.
20:22
SPEAKER_00: Right.
20:22
SPEAKER_00: She got off without any scratch on her record.
20:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
20:26
SPEAKER_01: So the king obviously sides with the wealthy.
20:28
SPEAKER_01: So by the time Ellis gets to her fourth husband, whose name is John Lipo, if I'm saying that correctly, um, he suspiciously falls ill.
20:39
SPEAKER_01: Oh.
20:39
SPEAKER_01: He's chronically ill.
20:42
SPEAKER_01: And he finally kind of pulls together all of Alice's stepchildren.
20:49
SPEAKER_01: So William Jr.
20:51
SPEAKER_01: obviously is not a part of this.
20:52
SPEAKER_01: This is all of her other children from the other marriages where these men have mysteriously died and left a big widow's dowry to her.
21:00
SPEAKER_01: He like creates this little committee, I guess.
21:03
SPEAKER_01: And uh, yeah, I was gonna say, I wasn't I wonder how many stepchildren were actually involved.
21:08
SPEAKER_01: Um, but he finally goes and he says, I am convinced that I'm being poisoned.
21:15
SPEAKER_01: I I don't just fall ill.
21:17
SPEAKER_01: It's like quite a coincidence that I have a bit of money, I'm dying.
21:21
SPEAKER_01: She's killed three husbands, maybe, and have have amassed all their wealth.
21:26
SPEAKER_01: Um, so and then again, what is Alice doing at this time?
21:30
SPEAKER_01: She's slowly changing her will to favor all of whatever's gonna happen from this potential death to favor her son.
21:37
SPEAKER_01: Um, so so all of this comes to a head, and uh the step siblings and Lepoe all get together and they say, We're gonna officially accuse her of sorcery, of poisoning, of witchcraft to murder her previous husbands and trying to kill John.
21:56
SPEAKER_01: So they they think they have enough evidence to support this claim.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: Meanwhile, there's this bishop.
22:03
SPEAKER_01: He's he's very fanatical.
22:05
SPEAKER_01: He's a zealot.
22:06
SPEAKER_01: Um, he's a Catholic bishop named Richard Ledred.
22:10
SPEAKER_01: And Richard Ledred is on this mission at the time to root out anything that could be considered heretical, any heresy in this area.
22:21
SPEAKER_01: So he's also specifically going after the wealthy elite because he wants to assert religious dominance in the area.
22:28
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
22:29
SPEAKER_01: He doesn't want it to be religion versus the wealthy.
22:31
SPEAKER_01: He wants religion to rule all.
22:33
SPEAKER_01: So he's kind of on this mission around the same time that uh Alice's fourth husband and all of her steps steps children are coming together to say, hey, like something's up with this woman, you know, enter Richard Ledred, who's there at the right time, to say, cool, like I'd like to be a part of this case.
22:53
SPEAKER_00: Let me kind of set up the scene too of what's happening.
22:56
SPEAKER_00: So we're in Ireland in the early 1300s, right?
22:59
SPEAKER_00: The year now is 1324.
23:02
SPEAKER_00: And the the what makes this story so interesting is it is one of the first witch trials in Ireland.
23:11
SPEAKER_00: Right.
23:12
SPEAKER_00: Witchcraft, sorcery, accusations of witchcraft as a form of heresy and something to be executed over was still a very new concept.
23:22
SPEAKER_00: It was definitely picking up in some of the other countries, but in Ireland, not so much.
23:27
SPEAKER_00: And there's a few reasons for that.
23:29
SPEAKER_00: Um, one that I thought was really interesting is when we think of Gaelic Irish folklore and inspiration, they actually believed in a lot of these mythical superstitions, but more in a positive light.
23:45
SPEAKER_00: It wasn't necessarily that being a witch was working with the devil yet.
23:50
SPEAKER_00: They believed in white magic.
23:52
SPEAKER_00: They believed more in women as healers, not necessarily a woman being a witch, so she's frolicking with the devil.
24:01
SPEAKER_00: And you're almost like a medicine woman, like a doctor.
24:04
SPEAKER_00: It's seen as more of a positive thing and not a some bad thing.
24:09
SPEAKER_00: Not even not only that, but they also believed more in fairies than in devil worshiping.
24:16
SPEAKER_00: So if any type of same naughtiness was going on, they actually blamed the fairies, not that the local old woman in the town was up to some, you know, caho in cahoots with the devil.
24:29
SPEAKER_00: Right.
24:30
SPEAKER_00: And witchcraft at this time was not seen as a crime in secular law.
24:35
SPEAKER_00: The church obviously saw it as uh something not so great, but it wasn't actually something that they were persecuting people over yet.
24:43
SPEAKER_00: Um, all of this kind of changed with Pope John the XXII.
24:48
SPEAKER_00: He was a very interesting Pope because he was one of the only popes who didn't live in the Vatican.
24:55
SPEAKER_00: He lived in Avignon, France, which Oh, that's another uh ever after reference.
25:02
SPEAKER_01: How's in like one of the opening scenes?
25:05
SPEAKER_01: Sorry, now I'm just derailing everything.
25:07
SPEAKER_01: I mean, we can relate everything to ever after.
25:08
SPEAKER_01: Probably explain, explain.
25:11
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and then one of the opening scenes when uh Danielle de Barbarac, Cinderella, is a young girl.
25:17
SPEAKER_01: Her dad is a merchant, and he tells her like he has to leave in a fortnight.
25:20
SPEAKER_01: And he says, I have to go to Avignon in a fortnight.
25:24
SPEAKER_01: She's like, but you just came back to visit the Pope.
25:26
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
25:27
SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of funny, like, because uh, you know, that's where that's where the Pope is at this time.
25:31
SPEAKER_00: It's all ever after.
25:33
SPEAKER_00: Uh Pope John the 22nd.
25:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he's living in France.
25:36
SPEAKER_00: So he's getting a little bit of a different experience, probably, than your typical Pope.
25:40
SPEAKER_00: And he was very paranoid about witchcraft.
25:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
25:44
SPEAKER_00: Um, and even farther back before him, Pope Alexander IV in 1258, he was the first pope who started persecuting witches, kind of making headway for what would eventually become the Inquisitions.
25:57
SPEAKER_00: Right.
25:58
SPEAKER_00: But Pop Pope John the the 22nd, he was anti-witch.
26:03
SPEAKER_00: He was he was paranoid of them.
26:05
SPEAKER_00: He actually helped endorse witchcraft as an accusation, go from a misdemeanor level to pure heresy that you can be executed for.
26:16
SPEAKER_00: So in this time period, then there's a lot of tension between church law and state law.
26:21
SPEAKER_00: Right.
26:22
SPEAKER_01: And those things like in this period are very much overlapping, which is making it confusing to be a citizen because if you're doing something against the church, all of a sudden you're a bad citizen within your local government.
26:35
SPEAKER_02: Oh.
26:35
SPEAKER_02: Which it's funny.
26:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it's funny kind of I'm I'm watching a documentary right now on Netflix, which this is really fun, but it's about Thomas Jefferson.
26:44
SPEAKER_01: Uh, we're watching a lot of founding father things right now.
26:46
SPEAKER_01: I don't know where a lot of them out right now.
26:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and they're really good.
26:49
SPEAKER_01: You forget like how amazing presidents were back in the day.
26:52
SPEAKER_01: But uh Thomas Jefferson was really a proponent of separating church and state.
26:58
SPEAKER_01: Like he was one of the first founding fathers to say these 100% in this new nation need to be separate because they've seen how in Europe it got fuzzy.
27:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, they overlapped, it got very confusing of like, well, if you're a bad Catholic, you're also a bad citizen.
27:13
SPEAKER_01: They're like, no, no, no.
27:14
SPEAKER_01: In this country, you have religious separate yeah, you have religious freedom.
27:18
SPEAKER_01: So we're gonna have our set of secular, like, you know, state like legislation, and then you can believe whatever you want religiously.
27:27
SPEAKER_01: But those things will be separate and they will not overlap because we don't want to fall into these traps, like in 1300s Ireland, where you're like, wait, you're a heretic.
27:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
27:36
SPEAKER_00: Um and so going back to Bishop Richard Del Deledred, yeah, I gotta remember his name.
27:41
SPEAKER_00: Ledred.
27:44
SPEAKER_00: Ledred.
27:45
SPEAKER_00: I dread you.
27:46
SPEAKER_00: Richard Deledred, he was working under Pope John the 22nd.
27:52
SPEAKER_00: So going back to what Elizabeth was saying, he's incredibly influenced by this.
27:56
SPEAKER_00: He's also very paranoid of witches, and he is one of those first crusaders in taking down witches in Ireland.
28:04
SPEAKER_00: So this is really like the start of it.
28:06
SPEAKER_00: Yes, witchcraft in Ireland didn't really pick up until the 1600s, 1700s, and this is 300 years before that.
28:13
SPEAKER_00: So this is pretty shocking to the community, totally.
28:17
SPEAKER_01: And Ledred, again, sees this whole thing happening with Alice and the accusations against her, and he is eager to take up this case.
28:25
SPEAKER_01: So in 1324, um, he officially accuses Alice and 10 others of forming a witch's coven.
28:34
SPEAKER_01: And a witch's coven, as you know, is like a group of witches, right?
28:37
SPEAKER_01: And she's supposed to be the leader of the coven, allegedly.
28:41
SPEAKER_01: And so he's accusing them of a multitude of things.
28:44
SPEAKER_01: And I'm not sure if he's getting this information just by talking to people in town or, you know, whatever hearsay is going on.
28:51
SPEAKER_01: But he says that her charges are that she's denying the Catholic faith and the Catholic sacraments, that she is apparently with her coven sacrificing animals to demons.
29:04
SPEAKER_01: And they get very specific on this, too.
29:07
SPEAKER_01: They say that they're taking animals to a specific part of town and they're like dissecting them.
29:12
SPEAKER_01: Like specifically, black roosters were a big thing.
29:15
SPEAKER_00: I don't know why that is like a little taxidermy hobby on the side.
29:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure.
29:19
SPEAKER_01: So what if she likes taxidermy?
29:21
SPEAKER_01: Um experiments, right?
29:23
SPEAKER_01: Maybe she's just a scientist, relax.
29:25
SPEAKER_01: But uh, that she's she's creating po poisons, and again, very specific here.
29:30
SPEAKER_01: She's creating poisons with parts of spiders, worms, dead man's nails.
29:36
SPEAKER_00: Dead man's toes, dead man's toes, dead man's toes.
29:42
SPEAKER_00: Spit in the cauldron.
29:43
SPEAKER_00: Pocus pocus, for those who didn't pick up on that.
29:45
SPEAKER_01: Oh, they know.
29:46
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then this is a funny one, too.
29:49
SPEAKER_01: An ingredient.
29:50
SPEAKER_01: Um, the clothes of an unbaptized infant.
29:55
SPEAKER_00: Apparently, that's very witchy.
29:57
SPEAKER_00: The unbaptism rubs off onto their clothes.
30:00
SPEAKER_00: So gross.
30:01
SPEAKER_00: We're missing one of the ingredients.
30:03
SPEAKER_00: Oh.
30:04
SPEAKER_01: The butt hairs.
30:05
SPEAKER_01: Oh, you love that.
30:07
SPEAKER_01: You kept saying the buttock hairs.
30:08
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, what are you saying?
30:10
SPEAKER_01: She's like, you know.
30:11
SPEAKER_01: She goes, Do you know what a buttock is?
30:13
SPEAKER_00: Do you know what a hair is?
30:14
SPEAKER_00: I was like, Megan, butt hairs.
30:17
SPEAKER_00: What one article we were reading on this called it asshairs.
30:22
SPEAKER_02: Sorry.
30:22
SPEAKER_00: And Elizabeth's like, what are ass hairs?
30:25
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, what are ass hairs?
30:26
SPEAKER_00: What do you mean?
30:27
SPEAKER_00: She's like, she's like, you know what an ass hair to describe.
30:30
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I thought you were saying something that I didn't understand, like a folklore, you know, folksy Irish thing, like, oh, an asshair.
30:38
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
30:38
SPEAKER_00: Sorry, I get immature.
30:40
SPEAKER_01: But yes, apparently ass hairs were involved.
30:43
SPEAKER_00: By them being so specific in the ingredients of these potions that they think that they're just building a stronger case of like how are they sitting around coming up with this?
30:53
SPEAKER_01: They're drunk, probably, and they're like, what's another fucking weird thing we can add to a potion?
30:58
SPEAKER_01: Oh, Billy's ass hairs are in there.
31:01
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
31:03
SPEAKER_01: Billy Bishop's ass hairs.
31:05
SPEAKER_01: Um Butcherson, that's his name, not Bishop.
31:08
SPEAKER_01: I was thinking of the other bishop.
31:09
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, so so weird specific ingredients that they're specifically accusing Alice and her followers of putting into poison.
31:17
SPEAKER_01: Um, but that doesn't end there.
31:19
SPEAKER_01: They're also accusing her of consorting with a demon.
31:22
SPEAKER_01: Again, like you said, maybe if we make it more specific, it sounds more real.
31:27
SPEAKER_00: That's how you know a good lie because you have to put specifics in there.
31:30
SPEAKER_00: You're not just vague.
31:31
SPEAKER_01: Nope.
31:32
SPEAKER_01: Apparently, this demon's name was Robin Artenson.
31:35
SPEAKER_00: I love that name.
31:37
SPEAKER_00: Why is that his name?
31:38
SPEAKER_00: That's a great name.
31:39
SPEAKER_00: Robert?
31:40
SPEAKER_00: Robert or Robin, right?
31:42
SPEAKER_00: Oh, sorry, yeah, Robin.
31:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they say Robert the other.
31:45
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes they just like Robin.
31:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I like Robin as well.
31:48
SPEAKER_00: Robin Artisan.
31:49
SPEAKER_01: They also might have said the nickname was the son of art, which I don't know.
31:55
SPEAKER_01: Who's art?
31:55
SPEAKER_01: I don't know who art is.
31:56
SPEAKER_01: Artisan.
31:57
SPEAKER_01: Arthur.
31:57
SPEAKER_01: Robin Art, I don't know.
31:59
SPEAKER_01: They have multiple multitude of names for this person.
32:02
SPEAKER_01: Demon.
32:03
SPEAKER_01: Demon.
32:04
SPEAKER_01: And he had a lot of different forms he took.
32:06
SPEAKER_01: And we've seen this in other witchy episodes we've done.
32:09
SPEAKER_01: But they said that he either appeared as a black cat, a shaggy dog, or a dark figure.
32:16
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes they specifically say an Ethiopian man.
32:19
SPEAKER_01: I was like, why?
32:21
SPEAKER_01: I have questions.
32:22
SPEAKER_00: Ethiopian?
32:23
SPEAKER_00: Like, I mean, I I I read one version where they just said he was a black man.
32:28
SPEAKER_00: But like, why do they say Ethiopian?
32:30
SPEAKER_00: How did they do that?
32:31
SPEAKER_00: Do they know they know every African country?
32:33
SPEAKER_00: Like, I have a lot of questions on that matter.
32:37
SPEAKER_01: But the more specific you make it, the more believable.
32:40
SPEAKER_01: Believable it is, evidently.
32:42
SPEAKER_01: Uh I don't like they were throwing a lot of stuff around, right?
32:45
SPEAKER_01: Ass hairs.
32:46
SPEAKER_01: Ass hairs.
32:47
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then they said she's also taking the keys from the local church.
32:51
SPEAKER_01: Oh, gasp local church keys, and she's holding secret meetings in the church.
32:57
SPEAKER_01: Burn her at this day.
32:59
SPEAKER_01: For the Coven, like the Covens meeting in the church.
33:02
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, if you're a witch coven, why would you meet in the church?
33:04
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
33:05
SPEAKER_01: Lots of questions.
33:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they're breaking in.
33:07
SPEAKER_00: There's so many places they could meet.
33:09
SPEAKER_00: Like the woods.
33:11
SPEAKER_00: Like anywhere else.
33:12
SPEAKER_00: No, let's steal the keys to the church at night.
33:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:15
SPEAKER_01: Um, but once Alice gets wind that they're amassing all this quote unquote evidence, she flees.
33:23
SPEAKER_01: So Alice, well-connected, wealthy woman that she is, decides to lean on her political allies, her powerful friends, and she straight up leaves.
33:33
SPEAKER_01: She knows she's in hot water.
33:35
SPEAKER_01: So she either goes to England or potentially to Flanders.
33:39
SPEAKER_01: Um, fun fact like her brother-in-law, whose name is Roger Outlaw.
33:43
SPEAKER_01: So I imagine it's her Williams.
33:45
SPEAKER_00: Not Robin Artisan.
33:47
SPEAKER_01: No, that's her that's her demon friend.
33:49
SPEAKER_01: No, who's a black shaggy dog.
33:51
SPEAKER_01: Um, but raw Roger Outlaw helps get her out, maybe allegedly, gets her out of the country.
33:57
SPEAKER_01: Roger was the Chancellor of Ireland at one point.
34:00
SPEAKER_01: So they think that this was the most logical connection to kind of like get her out under the radar.
34:05
SPEAKER_01: That makes sense.
34:06
SPEAKER_00: She had connections in all sorts of places, though.
34:09
SPEAKER_00: And I think it just goes to prove that the the Rich got away with things.
34:13
SPEAKER_00: Oh.
34:13
SPEAKER_00: She had the means to be able to Totally.
34:16
SPEAKER_00: I mean, still to this day.
34:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
34:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
34:19
SPEAKER_00: I think we see it all the time.
34:20
SPEAKER_01: But one thing that was we really odd is that she apparently took Petronilia's daughter with her, which we just we basically we've very we've only mentioned Petronilia at the beginning of this episode.
34:34
SPEAKER_00: She's she's our execution story's our execution story.
34:36
SPEAKER_00: Not Alice.
34:37
SPEAKER_00: No, fuck Alice.
34:38
SPEAKER_01: She ran off.
34:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so fuck Alice.
34:40
SPEAKER_01: Alice gone.
34:42
SPEAKER_01: She left, she gone, and poor Petronilia's daughter may have gone with her.
34:47
SPEAKER_01: Her name was either Sarah or Vasilia.
34:51
SPEAKER_01: Very different names.
34:53
SPEAKER_00: Sarah is her Starbucks name.
34:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, her actual name is Basilia, but they can't write that on her Starbucks cup.
35:00
SPEAKER_01: So she says Sarah.
35:01
SPEAKER_00: I don't even know how they got from A to B on that name.
35:05
SPEAKER_01: Or her name was Sarah.
35:07
SPEAKER_01: And when they asked her her name, she did like the thing in Fakam Hall where she like looks around for clues of what her name should be, and she looks like a basil plant.
35:15
SPEAKER_01: She's like, it's Basilia.
35:19
SPEAKER_00: What's her name again?
35:20
SPEAKER_00: Say it, say it for real.
35:22
SPEAKER_00: Basilia?
35:23
SPEAKER_00: Basilia.
35:24
SPEAKER_01: Basilia.
35:24
SPEAKER_01: It's literally spelt like basil, like uh basil, basil, petronilia and basilia.
35:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
35:32
SPEAKER_01: So petrol and basil, basically.
35:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
35:36
SPEAKER_01: Cute.
35:36
SPEAKER_01: Beautiful names.
35:38
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
35:38
SPEAKER_01: So I don't know why Alice took Petronilia's daughter with her, but allegedly she did.
35:44
SPEAKER_00: There's gotta be so much more to the story that's just undocumented.
35:48
SPEAKER_00: Like we're never gonna know because they ran off and disappeared.
35:51
SPEAKER_00: But I wanna know.
35:53
SPEAKER_00: I have so many questions.
35:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
35:54
SPEAKER_00: Did Petronilla know Sarah slash Basil was gonna run off with her?
36:00
SPEAKER_00: Why didn't they try to take her with them?
36:03
SPEAKER_01: Unless it sacrifice, unless it was one of those things where, like, I can only take one.
36:07
SPEAKER_01: You know, dear little Basil's gonna have a better life if she runs away with Alice.
36:10
SPEAKER_01: So maybe take her.
36:11
SPEAKER_00: I'll take the I'll take the cover for this.
36:13
SPEAKER_00: Right.
36:14
SPEAKER_00: Was there money involved?
36:15
SPEAKER_00: Right.
36:16
SPEAKER_00: Maybe she was gonna give her a better life.
36:18
SPEAKER_01: And what and if you're Alice, why would you bother even taking her?
36:22
SPEAKER_01: Because at this point, Petronilia is only like 24 years old, roughly.
36:27
SPEAKER_00: This would be such a good book if it kind of can get really fictional of the what if the what ifs and why, like just her daughter.
36:35
SPEAKER_01: Point of view, you're the daughter.
36:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
36:38
SPEAKER_01: I like that story.
36:40
SPEAKER_01: But but I would change her name though.
36:42
unknown: Yeah.
36:43
SPEAKER_01: Her name's Sarah, okay.
36:45
SPEAKER_01: Um, but but my my point being that this daughter must have been very young.
36:49
SPEAKER_01: If Petronilia is only 24, how old is this daughter?
36:53
SPEAKER_00: I mean, they were getting married at like 12.
36:55
SPEAKER_00: This this this girl could have been 73.
36:57
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
36:58
SPEAKER_01: I'm just saying, like, say she had a baby, you know, when she was 15.
37:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
37:02
SPEAKER_01: Like let's say that nine.
37:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, she's nine years old.
37:05
SPEAKER_01: Like, how helpful is the nine-year-old to Alice who's on the run?
37:08
SPEAKER_00: Isn't that more of a liability?
37:11
SPEAKER_00: 10.
37:12
SPEAKER_00: Right.
37:12
SPEAKER_00: That and that's and that's an extremely early baby.
37:15
SPEAKER_00: So I'm she was littler.
37:16
SPEAKER_00: She was like three.
37:18
SPEAKER_00: Maybe everyone knew that it was gonna go down and she just wanted to save her daughter.
37:22
SPEAKER_00: And right.
37:23
SPEAKER_00: I I don't know.
37:23
SPEAKER_00: I I just think there's more, and I would love to know what that is, but we may that's one that we can't we can't answer for you.
37:29
SPEAKER_00: No.
37:29
SPEAKER_00: They do arrest Petronilla then, and William Outlaw Jr., the son who was collecting all this money from his mother Alice.
37:40
SPEAKER_00: But you know what?
37:41
SPEAKER_00: Boys will be boys, right?
37:43
SPEAKER_00: He doesn't really we'll get into his ending soon, but he is not quite a part of this story.
37:48
SPEAKER_00: No.
37:49
SPEAKER_00: Um, unfortunately, it's Petronilla who gets the really, really hard part of it.
37:54
SPEAKER_00: They um, ooh, what's the name?
37:56
SPEAKER_00: It's it's Kilkenny Castle, right?
37:59
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
37:59
SPEAKER_00: Kilkenny Castle.
38:01
SPEAKER_00: They arrest her, yep, they arrest her, they take her to Kilkenny Castle, which is still an open castle to this day.
38:08
SPEAKER_00: Oh, we can't really want to see it.
38:10
SPEAKER_00: It's very haunted, evidently.
38:13
SPEAKER_00: Um, you had a good haunting story about this.
38:16
SPEAKER_00: Well, not my I I was like reading about through about this story, and I was I got onto like a ghost website, it went a different direction.
38:24
SPEAKER_00: As one does.
38:26
SPEAKER_00: And supposedly nowadays, they say there's 41 ghosts that live in Kilkenny Castle.
38:33
SPEAKER_00: It's very specific.
38:34
SPEAKER_00: One of them, they call her the white lady, and they think it's Anne Boleyn's grandmother who was born in Kilkenny Castle.
38:45
SPEAKER_00: That's wild.
38:46
SPEAKER_00: In the 1400s.
38:47
SPEAKER_01: I also did not know Anne Boleyn was Irish.
38:50
SPEAKER_00: Like so Thomas Boleyn's mother is this is her paternal grandmother, was born in Ireland in Kilkenny Castle.
38:57
SPEAKER_00: The same place where our execution story is taking right now, and you can go and meet her.
39:03
SPEAKER_00: Also, I mean, take this for what it is, but this website on the ghost stories also said that they have a counter to count the number of tourists who come in every day.
39:13
SPEAKER_00: Right.
39:14
SPEAKER_00: And I don't know if that's like um style, I'm not sure.
39:17
SPEAKER_00: Whatever their counter counting system is.
39:20
SPEAKER_00: Right.
39:20
SPEAKER_00: But they said very frequently in the morning, their account number will be about a hundred higher from over the night when nobody was entering the castle.
39:32
SPEAKER_00: That's pretty wild.
39:33
SPEAKER_00: So the ghosts were coming in and out, supposedly.
39:35
SPEAKER_00: So judge for yourself if that's haunted or not.
39:38
SPEAKER_00: I would like to go to Kilkenny Castle.
39:40
SPEAKER_00: I know.
39:40
SPEAKER_01: See for myself what's going on here.
39:43
SPEAKER_01: Well, Megan and I were just discussing that our next European adventure, we need to tack on a few cities, and we're thinking of maybe making it to Ireland for this next one.
39:52
SPEAKER_01: Again, we don't know yet.
39:53
SPEAKER_01: We're still planning.
39:54
SPEAKER_01: Itinerary is TBD, but we would love to.
39:58
SPEAKER_01: See that after we record here?
39:59
SPEAKER_00: Let's make our whole trip.
40:00
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
40:01
SPEAKER_00: Like, Holly, can you stay?
40:03
SPEAKER_00: It's only 10 o'clock right now at night.
40:05
SPEAKER_00: Saturday, I could stay all night.
40:07
SPEAKER_00: Um, but back to Petronilia.
40:09
SPEAKER_00: Yes, so they arrest her, they torture her.
40:13
SPEAKER_00: Well, she's also publicly flogged with a whip.
40:17
SPEAKER_00: They they are not nice to her.
40:19
SPEAKER_00: No, they don't give specifics on how they torture her besides the whipping and the flogging, but it had to have been pretty bad because she does end up confessing to several things.
40:31
SPEAKER_00: She confesses to saying, I did participate in magical rituals with Alice.
40:38
SPEAKER_00: Right.
40:38
SPEAKER_00: I prepared these potions for Alice with the butt hair and the unbaptized baby clothes and the spiders and the worms and the dead man's nails.
40:50
SPEAKER_00: Did Nazos.
40:51
SPEAKER_00: She helped the ceremonies with her demon friend Robin Ardison.
40:57
SPEAKER_00: And then she also saw and witnessed and participated with Alice in renouncing Christianity, which are the the big ones are right, heresy.
41:08
SPEAKER_00: The heresy of it all.
41:10
SPEAKER_00: Right.
41:11
SPEAKER_00: And Richard Deladre.
41:14
SPEAKER_01: One more that she saw too.
41:16
SPEAKER_01: What's that?
41:16
SPEAKER_01: That um, I mean, she claimed obviously that Alice was the main like mistress of the coven, the head of the coven, but she said that she saw Alice flying on a broomstick in air.
41:28
SPEAKER_01: Oh.
41:28
SPEAKER_01: She said she had like a magical potion that they greased a broomstick with, and Alice was soaring through the air on her magical greased broomstick.
41:37
SPEAKER_00: I didn't realize that's how you got the the broomstick to fly by greasing it up with hairs.
41:43
SPEAKER_00: Like the Donald Duck short.
41:44
SPEAKER_00: It's like a little powder puff thing.
41:46
SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, yeah.
41:50
SPEAKER_01: It's a good one.
41:52
SPEAKER_00: Classic.
41:53
SPEAKER_00: Richard Deledrad, he's really struggling at this point with building a case because again, this is new.
41:59
SPEAKER_00: Right.
42:00
SPEAKER_00: They're not used to how how do we pin a witch?
42:03
SPEAKER_00: And how do he he absolutely wants to go to the full extent of punishment for her?
42:08
SPEAKER_00: They're already torturing her, but he's really struggling with this, and he's butting heads with the secular law.
42:16
SPEAKER_00: And it comes down to him having to, he is a bishop and he works with the Pope.
42:21
SPEAKER_00: They have to excommunicate.
42:24
SPEAKER_00: I have to look at her name every time because I forget it.
42:26
SPEAKER_00: Petronilla.
42:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
42:28
SPEAKER_00: Because it kind of paints her out to be a worse person than she is.
42:33
SPEAKER_00: And this is the whole like what Elizabeth was explaining with the secular versus the church, which is so confusing in my brain.
42:39
SPEAKER_00: So I'm not gonna really get into it because I know I'm gonna say things that are incorrect here.
42:42
SPEAKER_00: But all I know is he does get her excommunicated to help build a case to show that she's a terrible person and that heresy is in fact a crime that you should be severely punished for with the death penalty.
42:56
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
42:57
SPEAKER_01: And I think had Alice stayed behind, she would have suffered some consequences.
43:03
SPEAKER_01: But because she's gone, all the bishop has is petronilia.
43:07
SPEAKER_01: So it's like she he like he's grasping at straws, trying to be like, How can I make a public example out of somebody?
43:14
SPEAKER_01: And the closest thing he has to guilty, especially under tortuous confessions, um, is Petronilla.
43:22
SPEAKER_01: So officially on November 3rd, 1324, uh Petronilla is brought to the center of Kilkenny and she's tied to a stake.
43:33
SPEAKER_01: And this is the first witch burning in Ireland slash the United Kingdom.
43:38
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
43:39
SPEAKER_01: It's a big deal.
43:41
SPEAKER_01: It's not again just a public shaming.
43:45
SPEAKER_01: They already had the flogging.
43:47
SPEAKER_01: He's trying to set the example that heresy is not tolerated, period.
43:51
SPEAKER_01: He's trying to enforce, you know, Catholic law in the country.
43:57
SPEAKER_01: Right.
43:58
SPEAKER_01: Um and again.
44:00
SPEAKER_01: And like like Megan said before this, this would have been a minor crime.
44:02
SPEAKER_01: It would have been a quick slap on the wrist, don't do this.
44:06
SPEAKER_01: But this is the like his he's successfully framing it as heresy, meaning you're you're essentially entering a pact with the devil, and this is now setting precedent for like legal and theological uh cases in the future for all witch trials in Europe.
44:24
SPEAKER_01: This was like the beginning.
44:26
SPEAKER_00: I feel like this guy, Ledred, should be talked about more often that he spearheaded this.
44:31
SPEAKER_00: I know.
44:32
SPEAKER_01: Right?
44:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, his whole story is interesting if you follow what he did after this.
44:37
SPEAKER_01: But he was a very controversial figure.
44:39
SPEAKER_01: I think people realize that he was a bit of a fanatic and he came at this from like a really hot angle.
44:46
SPEAKER_01: And like, yes, they did this, but afterwards, like maybe this guy's not the best judge.
44:51
SPEAKER_00: He's a little bit extreme.
44:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
44:53
SPEAKER_01: Um, so so he like his whole story, and again, we're not gonna get into specifics here, but for Ledred, I mean, he essentially is seen as taking it too far.
45:04
SPEAKER_01: He gets in trouble, he gets imprisoned himself.
45:06
SPEAKER_00: Well, you know what?
45:07
SPEAKER_00: Karma's a bitch.
45:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
45:08
SPEAKER_01: But he's dreadful.
45:10
SPEAKER_01: It's not like he gets executed.
45:12
SPEAKER_01: I mean, he gets he gets let go.
45:14
SPEAKER_01: He kind of amasses power again and tries this whole thing a few decades later.
45:20
SPEAKER_01: He's again like told, no, you can't do that.
45:24
SPEAKER_00: It's like it's like the one hall monitor, like the assistant manager at work who just like takes everything a little bit too far.
45:31
SPEAKER_00: Too far.
45:31
SPEAKER_00: Reel it in, hold your horse.
45:33
SPEAKER_00: Love the passion here, don't need to execute everyone.
45:37
SPEAKER_00: But you know who else also got away with a lot of it?
45:41
SPEAKER_00: William.
45:41
SPEAKER_00: William Outlaw.
45:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
45:43
SPEAKER_00: William Outlaw Jr.
45:44
SPEAKER_00: Such an American name.
45:45
SPEAKER_00: This seems it's like a cowboy name.
45:49
SPEAKER_00: William Outlaw.
45:50
SPEAKER_00: William Outlaw went on to Bisbee, Arizona.
45:53
SPEAKER_00: He was arrested with everyone.
45:55
SPEAKER_00: I mean, not his mother, Alice, who got away with Sarah.
45:58
SPEAKER_00: Right.
45:58
SPEAKER_00: But uh he was arrested as well and was being held in Kilken Kilkenny Castle.
46:03
SPEAKER_00: That is a tongue twister.
46:04
SPEAKER_01: I like that.
46:04
SPEAKER_01: We should practice that for our uh linguistic warm-up.
46:09
SPEAKER_01: Kilkenny Castle.
46:10
SPEAKER_01: He got off pretty easy though.
46:12
SPEAKER_01: He did, but because he was rich.
46:14
SPEAKER_01: I must I bet you if he was poorer, like I would put my money on this, that he would have probably been either very publicly executed andor, I'm sorry, publicly tortured andor executed.
46:28
SPEAKER_01: But um what he does is he makes a public recantation, basically saying that um he's sorry.
46:37
SPEAKER_01: He's sorry he went against the Catholic Church.
46:39
SPEAKER_01: Sorry about my mom.
46:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sorry about my mom, and I had nothing to do with this.
46:43
SPEAKER_01: So public recantation, slap on the wrist type of thing.
46:47
SPEAKER_01: And then he also has to pay massive penance.
46:50
SPEAKER_00: Oh with his seven million dollars.
46:53
SPEAKER_01: Oh poor boy, he has to pay it to the church.
46:56
SPEAKER_00: 3,000 pounds back in 1324.
46:59
SPEAKER_00: That's not all, like it's so much worse.
47:05
SPEAKER_00: I would love three thousand, let alone 700 years ago.
47:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
47:10
SPEAKER_00: I'm still shocked over that value.
47:12
SPEAKER_01: I know.
47:13
SPEAKER_01: Where's his money now?
47:14
SPEAKER_01: Um, but he also has to finance the re-leading of the roof of St.
47:20
SPEAKER_01: Cannis's Cathedral.
47:22
SPEAKER_00: That's fair.
47:23
SPEAKER_01: They should make you like that's you're like a roof is fucking expense as a homeowner.
47:28
SPEAKER_00: That is a big expense.
47:31
SPEAKER_00: So we just got a roof, honestly, in our house.
47:33
SPEAKER_00: Oh, did you really?
47:34
SPEAKER_00: We didn't you didn't tell me this.
47:36
SPEAKER_01: It was a few, it was a few months ago.
47:38
SPEAKER_01: You did not tell me this.
47:39
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I saw a big expense.
47:42
SPEAKER_01: Can you say?
47:43
SPEAKER_01: Well can you announce?
47:45
SPEAKER_01: Well, we got quotes for like 20 grand.
47:47
SPEAKER_01: We did not pay that.
47:49
SPEAKER_01: I think we paid closer to nine.
47:51
SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's see, that is enough to make or break someone.
47:54
SPEAKER_01: But we kept our shingles.
47:55
SPEAKER_01: Like you can do, because we live in Arizona, so everything is a clay shingle.
47:59
SPEAKER_01: We kept the shingles.
48:00
SPEAKER_01: We might need your roofing quote.
48:01
SPEAKER_01: They did the underlayment.
48:02
SPEAKER_00: We need a we need a roofing quote too.
48:04
SPEAKER_01: Just so you know, our neighbor got the same roof guy and he didn't love his experience, but we had a great experience.
48:09
SPEAKER_01: So take that for what it is.
48:11
SPEAKER_01: I'll take this offline afterwards.
48:13
SPEAKER_01: I got, I mean, from from wealthy businesswoman to uh to wealthy business.
48:17
SPEAKER_00: Share share the number.
48:19
SPEAKER_00: We will discuss.
48:21
SPEAKER_00: As a moneylender over here.
48:22
SPEAKER_00: As a moneylender.
48:23
SPEAKER_00: Um, I mean, but I want I want to know if we were to go to Canis Cathedral now.
48:30
SPEAKER_00: Right.
48:30
SPEAKER_00: The roof that we would see, is that the same roof that William Outlaw helped finance?
48:35
SPEAKER_00: Well, I have a comment on that actually.
48:37
SPEAKER_00: So our good old buddy Thomas Cromwell.
48:40
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love Thomas Cromwell.
48:41
SPEAKER_01: In the Tudor era, who helped spearhead the desecration of the monastery.
48:45
SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, yes.
48:46
SPEAKER_00: Familiar.
48:47
SPEAKER_01: This was one of the cathedrals they targeted.
48:49
SPEAKER_01: Oh.
48:50
SPEAKER_01: Because they said specifically the stained glass that was there was like iconic.
48:54
SPEAKER_01: And they wanted to make an example out of that by destroying it.
48:57
SPEAKER_01: So I don't I don't know how much of the actual, you know, 1300s cathedral is still intact because they they tried to destroy a bit of it during all of that.
49:06
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that makes sense, and it's sad to see that the roof did not stand time after that being his major form of punishment.
49:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're right.
49:16
SPEAKER_00: One girl gets burned to death and he has to buy a new roof.
49:20
SPEAKER_01: But what's crazy is that Alice completely disappeared from the story.
49:24
SPEAKER_01: What happened to Alice?
49:25
SPEAKER_01: We I was seeking out her information.
49:27
SPEAKER_01: No one knows.
49:29
SPEAKER_01: Where's Alice?
49:30
SPEAKER_01: We know that Alice is gone from the history books.
49:32
SPEAKER_01: Like there was some myths that like a wealthy woman uh came on the social scene under a different name in like an area of I think Northern England, but not confirmed that it was her.
49:44
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
49:45
SPEAKER_01: Um, that's probably the closest information we have to maybe Alice, but she really just disappeared and her assets were seized, like they were all confiscated by the crown, um, including her famous residence.
49:58
SPEAKER_01: So to this day, you can go and I'm gonna say it wrong.
50:03
SPEAKER_01: Kite, I can't say her last name.
50:06
SPEAKER_01: Kitler, right?
50:07
SPEAKER_01: Kitler?
50:08
SPEAKER_01: Kitler.
50:09
SPEAKER_01: Kitler Inn is her famous family home.
50:12
SPEAKER_01: It still stands to this day.
50:14
SPEAKER_01: And I think if you go there, I think it's like a pub slash entertainment venue.
50:20
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if it's an actual inn.
50:21
SPEAKER_01: Like I don't know if you could stay there anymore.
50:23
SPEAKER_01: It's definitely a pub.
50:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
50:24
SPEAKER_00: There's reviews on Google Maps.
50:26
SPEAKER_01: And Yelp.
50:27
SPEAKER_00: And Yelp.
50:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
50:28
SPEAKER_01: We have to go there.
50:29
SPEAKER_00: It's on Yelp in the UK?
50:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think so.
50:32
SPEAKER_00: Oh I don't know.
50:34
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if they have Yelp.
50:35
SPEAKER_01: Is Yelp a thing over there?
50:36
SPEAKER_00: No, I don't think so.
50:36
SPEAKER_00: Damn.
50:37
SPEAKER_00: It's definitely on Google with good reviews.
50:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
50:39
SPEAKER_01: So we have to go.
50:40
SPEAKER_01: And when you go there, because I assumed it was like a fortress standing on its own.
50:44
SPEAKER_01: It's almost a part of like a I don't know, medieval strip mall looking thing now.
50:50
SPEAKER_01: But there's a cool little like wooden sign with a black cat on it.
50:54
SPEAKER_01: Oh, very witchy.
50:55
SPEAKER_01: And I think I think when you go inside, there's like a statue of a witch when you enter.
51:00
SPEAKER_00: That's just crazy that it's the same establishment, like the same type of business that has been running for 700 years.
51:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
51:08
SPEAKER_00: That is insane to me.
51:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
51:10
SPEAKER_01: She we have old things and I know.
51:14
SPEAKER_01: No, America has no old things.
51:15
SPEAKER_01: Like Arizona specifically, like we've been a state for barely a hundred years.
51:19
SPEAKER_00: I mean, impressive, there's a saloon from the 1800s, which is really cool, but that's got nothing on it.
51:24
SPEAKER_00: In from 13 years, about that.
51:27
SPEAKER_01: They said I was I read an article about the palace.
51:30
SPEAKER_01: The oldest uh restaurant in it.
51:31
SPEAKER_00: My parents go there every Friday.
51:32
SPEAKER_00: It's cool.
51:33
SPEAKER_00: It's like their hangout spot.
51:35
SPEAKER_00: I want to go there.
51:36
SPEAKER_00: Anyways, I digress.
51:38
SPEAKER_00: Um I yeah, Alice went off to Wonderland.
51:41
SPEAKER_00: Like, we don't know where she fell in a rabbit hole.
51:44
SPEAKER_00: We don't know where what happened to Alice.
51:46
SPEAKER_00: It's incredibly sad, I think, what happened to Petronella, not only because it started the precedence of how to execute women accused of being a heretic and of witchcraft.
52:00
SPEAKER_00: Death by burning is the most terrible, agonizing way to die.
52:06
SPEAKER_00: I think so too.
52:07
SPEAKER_00: And it's um it's sad that she's honestly the only one out of everyone who got the blame for this.
52:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
52:13
SPEAKER_00: Hopefully, her daughter made a good life for herself, but like that is that to me the mystery of that whole part of the story.
52:19
SPEAKER_00: I love it.
52:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
52:21
SPEAKER_01: I also wonder how they decided to burn a witch because there was no precedent for this.
52:26
SPEAKER_01: Like this was the first burning, right?
52:28
SPEAKER_01: Like what made them decide that burning was the way to go.
52:33
SPEAKER_00: I think it's an interesting point.
52:36
SPEAKER_00: I'm completely guessing right now, and I'm sure there's we we should look into this a little bit deeper.
52:41
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
52:42
SPEAKER_00: My assumption is I think it does have something to do symbolically, right?
52:46
SPEAKER_00: Of like spirits releasing.
52:48
SPEAKER_00: I think, yeah, like absolutely destroying all trace of the body.
52:52
SPEAKER_00: Something to do with like burning, go back to hell, right?
52:55
SPEAKER_00: Like hell is in flames, you're in flames.
52:58
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
52:58
SPEAKER_00: I think it has some type of association with hell.
53:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
53:01
SPEAKER_00: And also of like purely burning the the soul, perhaps.
53:06
SPEAKER_00: I could see that.
53:07
SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah.
53:10
SPEAKER_00: You don't want any trace of this person left almost because it's just I can't get my words out right now.
53:16
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
53:17
SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm trying to verbalize it and I don't know quite a bit.
53:19
SPEAKER_00: No, I think you're right.
53:20
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's like in Hunchback of Notre Dame when they have a whole like burning at the stake for Esmeralda.
53:27
SPEAKER_01: Hell fire.
53:29
SPEAKER_01: It's like I think that's kind of it.
53:30
SPEAKER_01: Like he says to her, like, oh, choose me or the flame.
53:33
SPEAKER_01: Like you're going back to the flame from when she came.
53:35
SPEAKER_00: I think that's something to do with it.
53:37
SPEAKER_00: Symbolically, you're going back to hell.
53:39
SPEAKER_00: Right.
53:39
SPEAKER_01: And this is pure speculation.
53:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we shouldn't get like actually do you have your phone?
53:44
SPEAKER_00: Like, no.
53:45
SPEAKER_00: We have like technology around us, don't we?
53:47
SPEAKER_00: We can look this shit up.
53:48
SPEAKER_01: Uh the only technology I have on me is a microphone right now.
53:50
SPEAKER_00: I'm a little notebook.
53:51
SPEAKER_00: We will do some research and find out why they chose burning.
53:56
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
53:56
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna make a note right now for next episode.
53:58
SPEAKER_01: We're gonna do burning symbolism for next time.
54:04
SPEAKER_01: If I can read my tiny handwriting.
54:06
SPEAKER_00: And that's like um like a big uh fallacy as well, because Wow, you're so smart, it's fallacy.
54:15
SPEAKER_00: Wow, make it my words out when I do that all witches were burned because they weren't, right?
54:21
SPEAKER_00: And in America, they were primarily hanged.
54:23
SPEAKER_00: Hanged, yeah.
54:24
SPEAKER_00: It depended on the region of where the burning happened, but a burning was a big deal.
54:29
SPEAKER_00: It took a long time, it took a lot of resources, it was horrible.
54:34
SPEAKER_00: It was a huge yeah, and then it's just I I couldn't imagine witnessing that.
54:39
SPEAKER_00: So it's not as clean as a hanging.
54:42
SPEAKER_01: I just gave you a Taylor Swift thing on a plate and you didn't say anything.
54:45
SPEAKER_00: I was busy talking, say it again.
54:48
SPEAKER_00: Light me up.
54:49
SPEAKER_00: They're burning all the witches, even if you aren't one.
54:54
SPEAKER_00: Don't get me started on my Taylor Swift karaoke.
54:56
SPEAKER_00: I love it.
54:57
SPEAKER_00: They got their pitchforks and proof, their receipts and reasons.
55:02
SPEAKER_00: So let me up, let me up, let me up, let me up.
55:06
SPEAKER_00: I would love to do an outro of that song, but I don't mess with Taylor copyright.
55:12
SPEAKER_00: That is one, that is one part of territory.
55:16
SPEAKER_00: Of me singing it just like that off tune.
55:19
SPEAKER_01: Now, now please enjoy Megan's rendition uh of whatever that song is called.
55:23
SPEAKER_01: I did something bad.
55:24
SPEAKER_01: I did something bad.
55:25
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
55:27
SPEAKER_00: Oh, well, um, I'm glad we went deep way back into the start of witches in Ireland.
55:36
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
55:37
SPEAKER_00: I love it.
55:37
SPEAKER_00: This was a good one.
55:39
SPEAKER_00: I like this one because the person who actually did the crime did not was not the one executed.
55:45
SPEAKER_01: I mean, similar to our last episode about the Great Fire of London, I think they just needed a scapegoat.
55:51
SPEAKER_01: They really did.
55:52
SPEAKER_00: They just needed to have someone set an example.
55:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
55:55
SPEAKER_01: So these poor scapegoats throughout history just get the worst of it.
55:58
SPEAKER_01: Especially poor scapegoats with no money to build new roofs.
56:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
56:03
SPEAKER_00: I mean, she was poor.
56:04
SPEAKER_00: She was the maidservant.
56:05
SPEAKER_00: And she paid the final price.
56:08
SPEAKER_00: We remember her fondly.
56:10
SPEAKER_01: And her daughter Basil.
56:12
SPEAKER_01: At Kilkenny in Kilkenny County, Ireland.
56:17
SPEAKER_01: Not to be confused with the Kilkenny salad at Benegens, which was my favorite place growing up.
56:23
SPEAKER_01: It's like an Irish TGI Fridays.
56:25
SPEAKER_00: It makes sense though, why why they called it Kilkenny Salad.
56:27
SPEAKER_00: It was named after Kilkenny County.
56:29
SPEAKER_00: I know.
56:30
SPEAKER_00: I remember Did you know that back then?
56:32
SPEAKER_00: Obviously not.
56:32
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
56:33
SPEAKER_01: I just knew it was cute and Irish, and I loved their salad that had a really nice, like honey mustard dressing.
56:38
SPEAKER_01: And my mother always corrected me because I'm like, I want the Kilkenny salad.
56:41
SPEAKER_01: And she's like, it's Kilkenny.
56:43
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, oh.
56:44
SPEAKER_01: And now that I've researched this episode, everyone says Kilkenny.
56:47
SPEAKER_01: Now that you're a real historian, guys, okay, I'm a historical researcher.
56:52
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
56:53
SPEAKER_01: It's important.
56:55
SPEAKER_01: Elizabeth.
56:56
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
56:57
SPEAKER_00: Any final words?
56:58
SPEAKER_00: Let me up.
57:00
SPEAKER_00: Let me up.