Latest / Think Twice Show / The Philosophy of Consciousness ft Bel Cobain

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The Philosophy of Consciousness ft Bel Cobain · Think Twice Show

0:01
Loneliness is becoming an epidemic, and that raises an
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important question about everyone's consciousness.
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But first, what actually is consciousness, put simply, is
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our awareness of ourselves and our place in the world.
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And that awareness shapes all of our experiences and how
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connected we feel to our environment and other people
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around us. So loneliness isn't just about
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feeling alone, it's about feeling disconnected.
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Even when we're surrounded by millions of people.
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Humans are wired for connection. You can see in a simple
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conversation we start to mirror each other.
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Our body language, alliance and even our timing begins to match.
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We fall into a rhythm. We're on the same wavelength.
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And interestingly, that idea isn't new.
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Across Eastern philosophy there's a long standing belief
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that we're not separate individuals, we exist in
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relation to one another and the universe.
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So maybe that wavelength idea isn't just a metaphor.
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Today we're joined by Belle Cobain, A musician who explores
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these ideas for the music. So the question isn't just why
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do we feel lonely, but are we out of sync?
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Welcome to Think Twice. My name is Benz.
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My name's Santa. And today we have the wonderful,
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brilliant Belle Cobain with us today.
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Welcome to the show. Hello.
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I've got you short of your bag on your lap.
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Are you not comfortable? Have I not made you at home?
1:47
Sound like. Protective.
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Today it is the philosophy of consciousness.
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And the first question is, if you believe your thoughts are
1:56
unique, are you destined for loneliness?
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What do you think that? I think you are.
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I think you are. I think ultimately if you see
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your sort of consciousness and your thoughts and your ideas as
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individual, you're going to isolate yourself from from
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others interconnectedness in your in your community.
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So I think you're starting the process that could end up at
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loneliness. I don't think it's for absolute
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sure. I think you can see yourself as
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an individual and be absolutely fine and be connected, but I
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think that is the start of problems.
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What were you? I don't think any of us are
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destined for loneliness. I think the result of our
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journey always leads us back together.
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And I do similarly feel like our thoughts are unique, but I also
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like on a spiritual one, really, really believe that there's like
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waves of like ideas that like run through US and depending on
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your own frequency, you can tap into different ones.
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OK. So yeah, we do like we are able
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to have it interconnected experience, but through a unique
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self. So you see these like waves that
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you were discussing, for example, do do other people
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experience these waves as well? Is that what you're saying?
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Well, they're just everyone can access them.
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OK, so these waves are happening and everyone can access them in
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their own unique way. Yeah, we're not everyone at one
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given time. Yeah, yeah, Yeah.
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I hear what you're trying to say.
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Yeah. I don't think you are destined
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for loneliness. I think loneliness is the
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absence of connection, right. So how do you like sort of get
3:28
connection? There's like, I think there's
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two waves. You can like articulate how you
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feel about something and someone else might feel that same way
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and then you connect over there. Or like emotionally, you feel a
3:41
particular way about something and someone else feels
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emotionally the same way about that same thing.
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And then you can connect over those things or it can be both.
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So. What aren't you describing?
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Like non unique thoughts. Then you're describing a thought
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that you might have that someone else also has and you connect
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over the fact that you have that shared experience or shared
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thought, right? Yeah, if you let me finish one
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place, it would have been nice. 5 minutes.
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But I'm saying I said loneliness is the absence of connection.
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And we would say if you're able to articulate those thoughts and
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someone else has those thoughts, you can connect over that.
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But what I'm basically saying is people can connect emotionally
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even if they have different thoughts, even if those thoughts
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are unique to you. You're not always able to
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explain how you feel, but you can connect with something else.
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Like trauma literally lives in your body.
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So you're able to connect with people because you feel
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something about something and they feel something about that
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same thing, although their thoughts aren't actually there
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yet. Like you, you connect with pets,
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you connect with dogs, people connect with these and they
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don't feel lonely once they have their pets and their animals and
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the rest. And the reason why they do that
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is because they feel something towards this animal.
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There's people, they're children.
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You feel some thoughts. You can't understand their
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thoughts. They can't understand you have
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unique thoughts. Thoughts are different and they
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can't even articulate that. But you can feel something
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towards these other people and other things.
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And that's how I feel. You kind of connect which would
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then generate connection and you wouldn't have loneliness if that
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makes. Sense yeah, I agree.
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I agree. I certainly agree.
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I think maybe when I looked at the question, I felt like
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thoughts, feelings, emotions, like consciousness in like the
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lived experience of being a human being.
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I sort of bundled it all together.
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And I guess if you feel like your lived experience more on a
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more generic level is unique, I think that does start to lead to
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isolation and a lack of collection.
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And, and it might not be like, oh, the moment you think that
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your shared experience, your, your lived experience is unique,
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Bang, you're lonely. It's not quite like that.
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But I think I think it's you start to miss out on
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opportunities to connect to people because you think that no
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one can understand the unique, like lived experience, right?
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I think though you you touched on sort of phenomena outside of
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yourself that you can tap into. Right.
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It's a humility, isn't it? Like, do you think you're,
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you're such a profound genius genius Or like, do you think
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wow, like your, your existence is so hard to believe?
6:14
Yeah. There's so much crazier shit
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going on. Yeah, yeah, nice.
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I mean, let's try and go a bit deeper here now and I'm sure
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Benz will Take Me Out of this if he if he doesn't feel like it's
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working. What I want to ask you guys and
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explore is this idea of our lived experience, right, which
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we might call consciousness, How does that actually arise?
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I don't think we have a great understanding in society, but
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also scientifically of how consciousness even arises as
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part of our lived experience. But I kind of want to ask you
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guys, OK, you've got a mind, you've got a body.
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What is actually generating your actual consciousness?
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Like what do you guys feel like is generating your
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consciousness? There's a guy called Nagle who
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defined consciousness as something is conscious.
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If there is something, it is alike to be that thing, right?
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If there is something. It is like to be that thing.
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So we are humans. There's something it's like to
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be a human, right? Well, I wake up in the morning
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and I'm like, oh, this is what it's like to be Sam.
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And I can imagine that for Benz and Bell, there are aspects of
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that that I experienced that you experienced.
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But if we you, you spoke about dogs, dogs seem to be conscious,
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right? There's probably something it's
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like to be a dog. We don't know for sure, but
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there's probably something it's like to be a dog.
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The camera in front of us, there's nothing it's like to be
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a camera. So we can that is not conscious,
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right? And if we explore this idea of,
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of consciousness, I kind of want to sort of ask you guys, where
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do you think consciousness comes from?
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Does it come from your mind? Does it come from something
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outside of your mind? Does it come from your body?
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Like what do you guys think is actually generating this
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consciousness? I don't know if it's as simple
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as like it's like to be a human or it's like to be a dog.
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But like when I'm meditating or when I'm accessing my most the
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bottom of my ocean, the bit where it's like nothing's
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moving, everything's silent, everything's quiet.
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I'm realising that my consciousness is simply like my
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ability to exist. Do you feel like your
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consciousness is connected to your physical body?
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Then it's on some level, no, no. No, I think of course it is
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inside of my body, but I think it's outside of it.
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I think it's in other things. I think consciousness really is
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like something way before I am a human, or way before something
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is a dog or a plant, or like it's something very ancient.
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That's all interesting. Where do you think consciousness
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comes from? I'm clearly not a spiritual as
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well, I just think we're advanced beings, right?
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That over periods of time we've learnt to understand ourselves
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biologically. So I I generally go with the
9:06
concept that consciousness comes from the human body.
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The mind though, do you believe that there was a you outside of
9:13
your mind? In in what sense?
9:15
Well, just because you said that we're advanced beings and like,
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it's our ability to understand ourselves which sets us apart in
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terms of like having a consciousness.
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Do you? Do you feel like you are your
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thoughts? Then no, I don't thought that
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I'm sogging my thoughts. Then did your consciousness
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exist before you understood yourself through like your
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thoughts? That's a good question.
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I don't think it did exist. I actually don't know the
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consequences of what that means for like my other philosophical
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takes. You're.
9:49
Trying to stay consistent. Yeah.
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But I don't think it existed before I understood it, if that
9:55
makes sense. But I believe you.
9:58
You believe it existed before you understood it.
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Yeah. All right.
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Because I believe my consciousness has essentially
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developed from my awareness of my surroundings and my ability
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to navigate my surroundings. And I don't think your
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consciousness has stayed the same from the beginning to
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today, for example. All right.
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It's developed and changed. And as a result of that, I think
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there has to be an inception of it.
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And I feel that inception was the moment that you became aware
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and then it's developed and changed over periods of time to
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get to the point it is today, and it should develop and change
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again. Maybe the difference between us
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is that you believe like you are meeting yourself or you believe
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you are You were like you're growing into your consciousness,
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right? I believe my consciousness
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always existed and I'm I'm trying to meet her.
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I'm trying to meet her. I just think our consciousness
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is so old. It's important that I believe
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it's old as well. Otherwise capitalism and stuff
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can like feel like you can buy your way into being a more
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evolved being. Fair, fair.
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Let's move to, I guess, more modern phenomena, right?
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I see myself as a S Londoner, so I have this idea of what it's
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like to be a S Londoner and that allows me to connect to other
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people from South London on a maybe a deeper level than I
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might be able to connect to someone who's not from South
11:20
London. So I wonder if you guys feel
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like that transcends to the level of consciousness or it's
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just sort of a surface level thing that we use to connect to
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people. Is it like a deeper thing where
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South London is embedded in my actual consciousness?
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Or is it that I've just got some like reference points talking
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hardest when that comes on, everyone in this house just goes
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crazy. Or is it a deeper thing?
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Like what? How do you guys see that sort of
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social phenomena? Does the fact that I'm from
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South London literally change my consciousness?
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I think it does. OK, I.
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Think it does if we understand that, but you might not agree
11:57
with this actually to be fair. But like the material shapes are
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experienced and if the material shapes are experienced, our
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consciousness developed from that.
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And if you were raised in a particular environment, how you
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then impact the world and how you see the world is affected.
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And so I think it has to affect your consciousness.
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It's working. It's working like a true
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Marxist. I love that I.
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Love that I said I don't know what it does for my other stuff.
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But is your consciousness the same as your awareness then in
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that framework? Well, you said you wanted the
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definition for consciousness, right?
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So I went and got it OK. And it's the state of being
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aware of and responsive to 1's surroundings.
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And another definition is a person's awareness or perception
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of something. And that's how I understand
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consciousness as. Well, the difference between
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awareness and consciousness is your ability to respond.
12:53
Yes, I would. Yeah.
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Yeah, it is. Yeah.
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Yeah. And I think, I think that
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self-awareness, yeah, you are aware of yourself is I think
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that's an important part of of what I would imagine
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consciousness is. And obviously going back to the
13:05
other, the previous definition that that Nagle gave, his
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definition is almost a test for consciousness.
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Like, how do you know when something is conscious or you
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yourself are conscious? You have a defined experience
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that other people can identify, right?
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A rock cannot have consciousness because there's nothing it's
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like to be a rock. There's no rock experience that
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anyone could understand as far as we currently know, right?
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I don't know though. Like it's.
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Like a Toy Story. No, but this is for sure you
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can't interview or observe like what the rock is experiencing
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for sure. Maybe this is simply because I
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practise meditation. I believe that there are so many
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similarities. There are so many spaces that we
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meet inanimate objects or like things that aren't necessarily
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have a heartbeat. Like it's still growing and
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changing and responding to the earth around it.
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Like this one rock being beaten down by the sand and the sea
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everyday. Like eventually it moulds and
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changes. This is the same rock that you
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live in, live on, suspended within like space.
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How could you really say that this rock has no consciousness
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if we're living on it and through it and with it?
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So you would say that the rock has consciousness?
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I would, I would. Was that any thought?
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Did you just come up with that? One, no, I believe.
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I believe things that like inanimate have a deeper
14:29
consciousness. I do.
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I guess, I guess I do like where you're going, if I'm honest,
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because as much as I don't think the, I don't think the rock's
14:37
conscious. But when you, when you listen to
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neuroscientists talk about consciousness and they talk
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about experiments they do on the brain to try to identify what
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consciousness scientifically looks like, they struggle.
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They really struggle to be like, this is what consciousness is in
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the brain. This is the material proof that
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we have consciousness. They obviously can track what
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the brain does. They can say, OK, the prefrontal
15:03
cortex has is consuming more energy when this person does
15:06
this or they experience this or these neurons fire and
15:10
communicate between the left and right side of the brain, but
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they can't. These are like shadows and
15:15
traces of consciousness. It's not like, oh, this is the
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thing that proves that that actually creates consciousness
15:20
in the brain. So I guess 2 two things arise
15:24
from that. Like when I hear neuroscientists
15:25
speak, the first thing is that we don't understand
15:28
consciousness. So it could be that the rock is
15:29
conscious because we don't fully understand our unconsciousness
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and we can't prove it. But before science, we actually
15:36
had like sciences, studying the magic of the consciousness.
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Like science is always one step behind.
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I mean, look at astrology like people did.
15:46
People do believe that rocks have consciousness and that's
15:49
why they're interacting with each other.
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There are stories like old deep stories of like how Venus has
15:56
this deep connection with like Mars.
15:59
That's why you're like this and that's why your sinister with
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that person is going to be like that consciousness is the flame
16:07
that we're studying. And I think as we get closer, we
16:10
get a little bit like, oh, I see how the flame was made like, but
16:15
maybe we've got 2 clothes. It's still like undefined.
16:18
It's still undefined. It's still magic.
16:20
Yeah, it always has been. I mean that that was the second
16:22
point I was going to make, is that maybe consciousness is not
16:25
a material phenomena. It's not something that arises
16:28
because our brain has the physical properties that it
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does. Maybe it's a deeper thing that
16:34
science can never explain, right?
16:36
Is a is a is a more spiritual thing that I think you're
16:40
pointing to that scientists will never be able to prove in a lab.
16:44
Is is is is deeper than that? And I, and I think you've sort
16:47
of alluded to that point before. I think you mentioned like when
16:51
you're dreaming, it's hard to think that it's just this dream
16:56
that's happening and they can explain this away to me.
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Just from physical phenomenon. Physical.
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Phenomenon like there's nothing else happening here and to your
17:03
point if which we don't truly understand consciousness, things
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like dreams and things like Deja vu and lots of weird things that
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happen in your life can't be simply just explained away by
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this thing lighting up in. Your because your dreams are
17:17
your subconscious that brings consciousness.
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You have the things you're aware of and then you have the things
17:24
that you haven't even fucking surfaced.
17:26
Yeah, you haven't even brought them up yet.
17:28
But your body's dealing with your trauma is dealing with it.
17:30
That's all in the consciousness. I don't even know how that the
17:34
definition even applies to the expansiveness that consciousness
17:38
could could be. Yeah, Yeah, you're right.
17:41
All right. And I think our definitions are
17:43
sort of somewhat limited by what we can prove scientifically.
17:46
By what we understand. Yeah, yeah, anyway.
17:49
On to the next segment. Does modern city life bring
17:57
people together or does it isolate them?
18:00
I think modern life isolates people.
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I think primarily through the theft of our free time and
18:06
leisure time. We just can't connect to people
18:10
because we're always busy. By the time we're done being
18:13
busy, we're tired and we have to start the next day over again.
18:19
And I think a lot of people experience that.
18:21
But I do also think within that, there's plenty of opportunity to
18:25
to to connect. It's just that capitalism has a
18:27
way of robbing us on that time. I think it absolute size.
18:33
It's sad. You know, I was in the gym the
18:35
other day and I saw this like thing come up on the board and
18:37
it was like one in four people in my borough have like surveyed
18:42
that they feel lonely at some point.
18:44
So I just feel like so obscene amount of people that not only
18:48
just feel it, but are like, noting it down to someone who's
18:51
come down and be like, do you feel lonely?
18:53
And they're like, yeah, yeah, I actually do feel lonely.
18:57
There's a lot of people when we're living like walls away
19:01
from each other, yeah. Agreed.
19:04
What do you think, Linds? Yeah, I think it isolates for
19:06
like multiple reasons. I actually think, I think phones
19:10
have a big, a big part of this like Gen Z obviously are the
19:14
most anxious generation that has ever been and and that's and
19:19
that's linked to avoidance behaviour.
19:21
So I, I, I do actually think it's somewhat, I don't want to
19:24
say it's their fault because it's, it's not like an
19:26
individual's fault, but it's a systemic fault that obviously
19:30
you develop avoidance behaviour and socialise and feels like
19:33
quite comfortable phones feel easy.
19:36
And then you choose the phone and you socialise less and
19:39
anxiety increases and then you avoid it even more and it
19:42
becomes a loop. And what ends up happening as
19:45
well? People start working from home,
19:47
people go to gym. The gyms are now 24 hours.
19:50
So there's not a time that like confines people to a certain
19:52
space at a particular time. Have you seen the mirrors that
19:55
people can buy now and like do a gym class in a mirror and it's
20:00
got like an AI with it where like there's a personal trait
20:04
like it just like completely eliminates any social.
20:08
So like, people are forced into spending time together.
20:11
So the only time you really spend time with people is if you
20:17
go out of your way to do it. And as you've mentioned before,
20:20
capitalism and modern big cities basically take that time away.
20:24
So you have to be really active about it.
20:26
And then you're a little bit avoidant as well.
20:29
At the same time, you're a little bit anxious about a
20:31
social event. Next thing you don't meet people
20:34
and you're not forced. I sort of looked at the
20:35
comparison. So if we look at Village, you're
20:38
like forced go to the same shop constantly or you're forced to
20:42
go to the same gym that everyone goes to, and you're forced to go
20:45
to the same club that people go to.
20:47
And it generally just has to bring people together as a
20:50
result. And I think that's the big
20:52
difference between a big city, because those other problems are
20:55
still there in a smaller place, right?
20:57
But in a smaller place, you're like forced to spend time with
21:00
people. It's complicated.
21:01
I always see this analogy as like when you have a baby and
21:05
you're nursing the baby on the boob and there's going to be
21:07
this point where you have to like take it off.
21:09
Like you've got to like feed yourself, live your own life.
21:13
And there's this, like, you know, this horrible moment where
21:17
the child is, like, crying at the monk, but it's for the best
21:22
of the child. Of course, there's also this
21:24
essence of, like, pacification. And we're looking at a
21:28
generation. But, yeah, we are anxious and we
21:30
are, like, isolated. But there's also a lot going on
21:34
and no outlet for it. So of course we want to pacify
21:38
ourselves with these phones and like little dopamine hits.
21:41
And it would be great if we could take away the phone and go
21:44
back to clubs and connect and like actually be pushed into
21:48
reality. The truth is there's so much
21:50
going on. I don't really blame people for
21:53
pacifying for being on the boob at this point.
21:55
Like, you know what I mean? We need a bit of love.
21:58
We need to be tapped into like softer, softer things.
22:04
Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, I agree. I agree.
22:06
I think to sort of connect what you both said there, I think
22:10
obviously there's, there's, there's systemic things that
22:13
happen to people to force them into an individual life, right
22:18
and and separate people from their neighbours, their
22:20
communities and their and, and, and social groups.
22:24
But there's also a, a sort of even higher level of culture,
22:28
right? There's a culture in the West
22:32
that is hyper individual and there's many sort of things that
22:37
happened historically that have led us to the point that we're
22:40
in right now of hyper, hyper individualism.
22:43
And one of those factors is obviously neoliberalism.
22:46
The way that politics and economics have been sort of
22:49
dictated to us to see ourselves as individuals that operate
22:54
within a system rather than a collective of people that all
22:58
interact with the system in, in, in, in many different ways,
23:01
right? And obviously we can trace that
23:04
back to Maggie Thatcher, Ronald Reagan, But even before that,
23:09
right, if you go all the way back and look at like the, the,
23:12
the, the start of Western philosophy, like what it is to
23:16
be an individual in Europe, this is underpinned by the idea of
23:21
the individual rational self, right?
23:23
So to connect this to the segment one about consciousness,
23:27
Western philosophy is always seen individuals as individuals
23:31
who are conscious and have their own consciousness, right?
23:34
So Western philosophy has always rejected what you're saying in
23:39
segment 1, Bell. It's always rejected this idea
23:41
that we are, we have interconnected consciousness.
23:46
It's always been about the individual's physical body and
23:49
the physical mind that generates consciousness.
23:51
This idea of dualism, right? Dualism is that you've got a
23:55
mind, you've got a body, and they both interact to, to, to
23:58
create consciousness. This goes back to Rene
24:00
Descartes, who is I think 17th century philosopher.
24:04
He came up with this sort of dualism of self.
24:07
And I can trace a lion all the way from Rene Descartes to 2026.
24:12
And there's a reason why we've ended up in this sort of hyper
24:14
individual culture that that we're in.
24:17
And it makes people choose individualism, right?
24:20
On a deeper level, like on a subconscious level, we pick like
24:23
the mirror with the gym because we think art is convenient.
24:26
But really, like there's a there's, there's deeper things
24:29
going on in, in our subconscious.
24:31
Absolutely. That our brains won't even allow
24:34
us to explore. Yeah, yeah.
24:37
Just for simple survival reasons.
24:40
I think it's so mad what you said.
24:42
Like I've been thinking a lot about that duality of of the
24:46
mind and the body. It doesn't bring everything
24:49
together and look at the way that we are connected with the
24:53
world and it's so in our disjointedness.
24:57
Yeah, yeah. And on top of that, like as much
24:59
as dualism kind of makes sense, right?
25:01
Kind of makes sense that the mind creates consciousness and
25:05
the body is a separate entity to the the soul or the mind or
25:09
whatever. It doesn't make sense.
25:11
But like we still haven't even really proven that if, if we're,
25:14
if we're getting into it, we've not.
25:15
I don't think we've proven that on a scientific level.
25:18
So it's a great idea, but like it might just be wrong, right?
25:23
And it might be that we are connected to the universe on a
25:26
more spiritual level. And I think that idea has lasted
25:30
in antiquity. If we go back and we think about
25:33
a philosophical framework like Buddhism, the Buddhist would
25:37
connect you to the universe. You have this idea of karma and
25:40
the idea that you could be reincarnated as something else
25:43
in another life. This is like the the Western
25:46
mind could not fathom that. But these ideas like really
25:50
reject the like the intensity of pleasure and pain and really
25:57
take you in the middle where is like capitalism and the
26:00
structure that we're under now is really bound to like pleasure
26:04
as the individual or pain as the individual.
26:07
I was thinking about the logistics of like buying some
26:10
land the other day and I was like, it's going to be lit off
26:13
grid. Fuck the government.
26:16
But the truth is like now that I'm in this land, I've got to
26:20
deal with people personally, my neighbours.
26:22
I can't just be like, oh, she's well, annoying, not connected.
26:25
I've got to like deal with the unpleasant parts of creating my
26:31
own ecosystem, having to look at myself, actually having to do
26:35
the work. Whereas when you're plugged into
26:37
capitalism in individual, in an individual world, you can cut
26:42
off the bits you don't like. You can exist without that
26:46
annoying person down the road. Just isolate yourself in like
26:49
your little haven and you don't have to experience the
26:54
consciousness of the universe. Yeah, and just pay for those
26:58
things to be abstracted and just maximal convenience.
27:02
Yeah. Which is crazy.
27:04
Which is crazy. OK.
27:07
On to the final segment. A system called Pluribus allows
27:14
you to merge your consciousness with a shared human field.
27:18
Those who join feel no loneliness, no misunderstanding,
27:22
and a deep spiritual oneness. Most importantly, it makes
27:25
society better and happier. It significantly reduces harm.
27:30
Some even see it as a duty to the community.
27:33
While connected to your thoughts, memories and inner
27:36
patterns become interwoven with others.
27:39
Joining is voluntary. You can leave at any time and
27:43
return to being fully sovereign, your body unchanged, your mind
27:47
clear and your autonomy intact. But if you do leave, you will
27:51
also cause unknown, irreversible harm to someone that is
27:56
participating. Do you join?
28:00
Absolutely, I've already joined. If you haven't joined, joined.
28:06
This is the Pandora's box of spirituality.
28:09
Like when I first ever had a full awakening, I was like,
28:14
like, we're open. Like I see it all and yes, I'm
28:19
connected to everything and yes, I feed it all.
28:21
And yes, you know, it's for the better of Earth.
28:26
I can opt out and it will, it will be devastating for the
28:33
earth. I think when people are out of
28:35
touch, like I said, disjointed from the earth, it is, it's
28:40
bleak. It it is the beginning of war.
28:44
It's the beginning of the war on people, on the earth, on the
28:47
water, like on the air. I think, yeah, I've already
28:53
joined. Fair, fair.
28:55
I, I, I struggled with this, this dilemma a little bit
28:58
because I can't divorce the the system called Pluribus in the
29:03
dilemma from Pluribus, the actual TV show.
29:06
And there's something unnerving about the TV show.
29:08
It's like. I've never watched.
29:10
That Yeah, I think you would love it, honestly, probably love
29:13
it. The show is about, is it a
29:15
virus? Can we call it a?
29:16
Virus. Virus.
29:17
Yeah, you can call it a virus. Yeah, it's it's a virus that
29:20
takes over humanity, and all human beings other than 12
29:25
people become part of the Pluribus, which is basically a
29:30
neural network of interconnected minds.
29:34
They have access to everyone else's consciousness.
29:37
OK, and they have all access to all knowledge of all human
29:41
beings ever that that live. And it basically makes every
29:44
individual in the Puribus almost like a all knowing, all
29:49
sentient, all powerful individual.
29:52
But there's something unnerving about them because they cannot
29:55
express any individuality whatsoever.
29:58
They they basically have one personality for like billions of
30:02
people. So there's something unnerving
30:03
about those those people that are tapped into Puribus.
30:06
But it sounds great. It sounds great.
30:10
No suffering. No.
30:11
Like society. So much better as well.
30:15
If only I could plug in and plug up without hurting anyone, that
30:18
would be great. Yeah.
30:20
Why would you plug out then? If you didn't like just in case,
30:23
just. You know, that's why I did that
30:26
little bit. If you get out of it, you're
30:29
gonna have to hurt someone. So it's not as easy as you could
30:31
just go in and out. Yeah, yeah, I want to plug in.
30:35
I want to join, but I think when you watch ATV show you, you
30:38
understand my reservation. There's just something a bit
30:41
weird about about them. But maybe that's just my
30:45
conditioning. Maybe I need to shed that it'd.
30:48
Be. Nice.
30:50
What do you think, Ben? What?
30:52
Do you think I think, what do you think I think you know, I'd
30:58
struggle to join. You're not plugging.
31:00
I'm not plugging in. I've watched from my father.
31:03
I'd be late to the party. I'd definitely be late to the
31:06
party. If everyone's like this thing is
31:07
sick, like and people you trust they are sick, then I'll
31:10
eventually go, but I'd be late to the party.
31:12
I, I really struggle to give up freedoms as a person.
31:18
I really value everybody's uniqueness and other people's
31:22
uniqueness and the differences in humans.
31:24
Like I love that about the human experience and to then join
31:29
something that basically kind of removes that, I can't be for it.
31:33
But you said freedom and I find it interesting because it's
31:37
like, do you believe your freedom is like being out and
31:42
being creative and be who you are, like free to do what?
31:46
Or is your freedom not to be connected to people, to your
31:49
tribe? You're free to be at one with,
31:53
you know, humanity, but even deeper God, like deeper like the
31:58
reason that we are here, Like what is your what is your
32:01
freedom? Freedom.
32:02
Freedom to do what? Well, I really like the
32:04
illusional choice. Like the idea that you get to
32:08
choose things and how you choose this thing shapes how you might
32:13
choose the next thing. I really enjoyed.
32:14
Is that the? Excitement.
32:16
I do love that. Yeah.
32:16
You know, that's the headless thingy.
32:21
Like, I really love that about the human experience.
32:24
Like I love the idea of the risk of choosing something that might
32:27
be right, might be wrong, and like having to balance the
32:30
scales in your head before you make a decision and it might go
32:32
wrong. I love the Leo or a Virgo.
32:35
I've never, I'm in Scorpio, so like all of those things
32:41
together. I just, I do get Virgo a lot
32:43
though. Loki, I really enjoy that part
32:45
of life and to give that part up is like even when I run this
32:48
show, like we don't know if it's going to be a success or more.
32:52
I kind of like that. I kind of like the fact that
32:55
like wherever it is or not is kind of down to some of the
32:57
decisions that we make, like how we behave and stuff like that.
33:00
And I enjoy that part of life. So to, to, to throw that away,
33:04
I'm not sure. But like, if everyone else goes,
33:06
like I'll be a follower, I'll be late for the party.
33:09
I'll be there with you eventually.
33:10
I recently a lot of what you're saying, but I'll be real.
33:13
But to Bill's point, maybe that is our conditioner, right?
33:16
Maybe that's what we are. We have been conditioned to see
33:19
life in that way and we have been disconnected with some
33:24
higher calling to be connected to God, like you say, Bill, and
33:29
not necessarily in a religious sense on a more like spiritual,
33:32
on a more spiritual basis, what we're doing is kind of a
33:35
distraction from that higher purpose.
33:37
And if we plugged into Pluribus, we would no longer think that
33:40
that was the right way to live like, right.
33:43
And that's completely possible. And I'm open to that.
33:45
I'm open to that. I'm just thinking of a film I
33:49
have watched, which is the Matrix.
33:51
And like how they're like, there's like this part where you
33:54
realise they're like actually like just humans plugged into
33:58
like this really disgusting world and their, their
34:02
uniqueness, their dopamine from their choices is what's fuelling
34:07
something way bigger. And like it's almost being
34:10
harvested from us. These like rushes of dopamine
34:13
are being harvested from us to fuels a different type of
34:17
consciousness as a as a parallel to the pluribus pluribus 1.
34:24
But again, I guess it's the question of like, is your
34:27
freedom your choices and what is it free?
34:30
What is it giving you freedom to do?
34:32
Or are you plugged into the truth and that is your freedom?
34:38
When you say plugged into the truth unless.
34:39
The truth. When I say the truth, I mean
34:42
into the interconnected the essence of.
34:46
The universe, the spirit of. God the.
34:48
Spirit of God, Yeah. I don't know.
34:50
I'm scared to say that, Yeah. Yeah, I, I do.
34:57
I do. I do feel that.
34:58
I think when we were recording, me and Burns were recording
35:01
together and I was talking about the human spirit.
35:05
I think you're talking about something slightly different,
35:08
but that idea of our human spirit being harvested by other
35:11
people or some other system. I, I, I feel that on a deeper
35:15
level, genuinely, I've I've. Had a good thing when you said.
35:19
That to be honest, I haven't really fleshed out that idea in
35:21
my head properly, so I might not be able to like fully articulate
35:25
it. But I, I do think that there is
35:27
a class of people on this planet that that maybe sees us as
35:33
having some sort of indomitable human spirit that is the real
35:37
source of the of the spice of life, the Spirit of God, Right.
35:42
And they want that thing that that's all that life is to them
35:46
is how much of that spirit can I harvest?
35:48
But yeah, it's interesting that you say that.
35:50
You say that as I'm like trying to come to that.
35:54
Idea. Anyway, thank you for having us.
35:56
That was really enjoyable. I'll see you soon.
35:58
See you next week.