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You Quit or You Move Forward Episode 54 · So There I Was

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I'm a lean mean speed thingy. You're listening to the podcast.
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So there I was. It's how all great aviation tales begin.
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This show is episode 54.
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You quit or move forward.
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How profound is that? Well, it's pretty darn profound.
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And when you listen to the episode, you'll get why.
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Holy cow. What an outstanding individual, Hunchy. Ryan Scholl. We did struggle with some titles on this too, right? And Punchy brought his A-game
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to us tonight and it was so much fun to talk to this gent. He is, folks go look it up on the
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internet if you'd like to look on YouTube, he is the man who was in the cockpit on the night of
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what they call Speed Check and we didn't bother asking him that story because it's out there on
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the internet and you can go find it and listen to it and it's great and it's funny, but he flew
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everything from reciprocating T-28s in Vietnam where he was downed and almost died, spent a
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year recovering, told he'd never, never fly again. And out of that came the quote, you quit or you
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move forward. The top doc in the Air Force came to him and said, I like your attitude. I'm gonna
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give you a shot. He's got hours in the A-7. He's one of the first 11 pilots to ever fly the A-10.
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And then he's only one of 90, nine zero pilots ever to fly the SR-71.
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And the irony there to me is the A-10 is probably the slowest tactical jet ever to fly.
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And the SR-71 to this day, 60 years after its initial design, is the fastest jet in human
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history. Well, only if you count 32 miles a minute fast.
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Literally faster than a bullet.
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Right, right. And this episode comes at you fast, but it lasts long.
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This is a bit longer than most. It's an hour and 45 with punchy, but I'm telling you it. The time flew by.
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It was so much fun, and we hope you enjoy listening to this episode half as much as we did.
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This was a blast.
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Hang on, because it comes out. You had 32 miles.
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At least at least at night. So sit back, relax, don't sit on the ejection handle. Don't do it!
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Here comes Punchy. the tanker, through the weather, oh, and to the tanker.
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Music.
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I was crossing the pond, and you could see that I wasn't exactly fond. So there I was.
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Which is how all great aviation stories start. Welcome to So There I Was.
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This is Fig with my co-host, Repeat.
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Where are you, Repeat? Hey, Fig.
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I'm home tonight for a couple more days, then I'm back off to work.
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But wow, we are privileged today to have an amazing guest with us.
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Our guest today is Brian Shull, former Air Force pilot who flew AT-28s in Vietnam, A-7s,
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A-10s, and is renowned for piloting the SR-71 Blackbird during the Cold War.
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Since leaving the Air Force, Brian has become a talented photographer, and I guess you could
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say he was a talented photographer in the Air Force in the SR-71.
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Yeah. You know no no stranger to long-range lenses, but he's now the owner of gallery1publishing.com
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I've seen some of his photographs online and.
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Truly stunning is an understatement He's also the author of several books sled driver flying the world's fastest jet the untouchables mission accomplished
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Eagle eyes action photography from the cutting edge the best of the best from the first decade of Mach 1,
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blue angels a portrait of gold and,
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and summer thunder. So, wow, that is an inadequate intro at best, but let me say to you, punchy
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call sign, welcome to So There I Was. We're thrilled to have you with us. And I guess
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I'm going to open it up with our first question, which is, how did you become interested in
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aviation? My guess is, and I think I'm right, that your father might've been a Marine because
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I noticed you were born in Quantico, Virginia and went to East Carolina University.
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University. That's very astute of you to figure that out. Very astute. My dad was a Marine.
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And the short story is that one, I was pretty sure the Yankees were going to call me up
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to play third base at some point when I was old enough. Right on. But in between, my dad
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took me to an air show at Andrews, a very big air show, a very good air show that had
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just about everything fine.
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And I was privileged to grow up in the 50s when more new jets were coming out every month or so
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that you can build the model airplane too. So I lived in an era of jet airplanes and Bonanza.
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And I saw my first stair show.
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And I still people I kind of lost my virginity to an air show.
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And I thought, hmm, that's pretty amazing. I thought maybe the Yankees would have to wait just a little bit.
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But then I learned something that changed my life. I asked my dad, I said, well, how do they get to go to all these air shows?
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What do they do in between? He says, well, no, that the air show is not their main job.
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They're actually Air Force and Navy pilots. and they just do the air show so we can see their planes.
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And I said, wait a minute, there's a real job where I could fly airplanes
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and they would pay me to do this?
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He said, yeah, that'd be your job. You get to fly jets and they pay you, that's your job.
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Well, at eight years old, my life took a new course. I thought, if I could do that for a living.
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So of course I wanted a big Marine F4 Phantom with the word Marines on the side.
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And my dad said, no, no, no, you're going to fly to the service where flying is the primary mission.
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You want to carry a rifle and join the Marines. You want to drive a boat, join the Navy.
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And under no circumstances will my son be in the Army.
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But if you want to fly, you join the Air Force. And my dad was was right.
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I got to fly so many more airplanes and had such a I was in the cockpit for 20 years.
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I never had a staff job and never did. Wow. That's impressive. Yeah.
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I didn't care about being a colonel. I wanted to fly.
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And I had 5,000 hours of fighter time being in the cockpit for 20 years.
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The last day I was in the air force, I was in a T-38, landed at Beale and drove off things, but it was just a matter of building all the
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model airplanes and my parents thought, he'll outgrow this, surely.
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And you know, I never did, it was just something that it's hard to explain to people who don't get that bug, they don't get bitten in that way, but when you are, it's easiest thing to, to feel and be.
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And I was fortunate enough to didn't go to the Air Force Academy, didn't have ROTC, I had zero hours of flying.
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And, uh, wasn't real shiny those first six weeks of pilot training, uh,
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it was a little behind, but I wanted it more than the other guys.
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And, uh, right.
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And I really, uh, I really was, was dedicated to that dream and I didn't have a plan B.
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When I was not doing real well, the first few weeks in pilot training,
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I thought, why, what's your plan B here? It's just, and I didn't have one.
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So it was a kind of sink or swim. And, uh, I, uh, I, I did. And people like to look at me today and say,
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Well, yeah, it's SR-71.
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Guy who must have been really great pilot and just a tremendous aviator. And I like to tell
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people that when I started off, I was pretty bad. I didn't know anything. I wasn't some gifted,
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natural, Charles Lindbergh kind of guy. I had to really work at it hard. And it's.
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A lesson I try to impart to young people and kids and audiences that it's okay to fail. It's okay to
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to fall down, skin you know, you know, it's not like everybody
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just aces everything all the way through. I went from number 32 in my class to number six, as we went through the year there
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about training. And it was just a real joy for me to get to live my dream. And not everybody gets to do that life. And now that
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I'm older, and I look back on it, I realized how fortunate and lucky I was at every turn, where I could have easily, for
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example, I was born with a crooked spine pretty badly. And the doctors said, you're not the worst thing you could ever do is
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sit in the cockpit of a jet fighter and sit in that seat and pull heavy g loads, you will really hurt your body. And I got
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in the Air Force and somehow they needed pilots really bad during Vietnam era. And a couple times I was taking physicals
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uh, later on and doctors tried to ground me and say, your, your spine is out of
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limits, but I was always in such good shape and everything, and very athletic
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that they, somebody else would just say, Hey, doc, just need to look the other
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way here on this one, but people ask me why I don't fly anymore today, after
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20 years of doing that to my body.
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And then another year with the blue angels and another winter training season with the Thunderbirds.
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Uh, yeah, I, I have a lot of aches and pains. that on a spine that never wanted to be in that seat.
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Can I back up and can I back up just for a second punchy? Because I had a little technical glitch and I and if I miss it, I apologize.
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What year did you go to pilot training?
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1970. 1970.
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Okay. Thank you. And it was near the end of the war there and everything.
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And I, when I graduated pilot training, they didn't have, we had like every C-130 and every B-52 assignment in the Air Force.
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They had one F-4 and the top guy took that. And there was just nothing on the board
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unless you wanted a C-130 or above.
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And I saw that one assignment, it was a special ops thing. It was a T-28 training foreign nationals.
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And it sounded kind of interesting. And I thought, well, that's.
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That's a lot closer to my dream than a B-52 would be. And I was still in the Air Training Command. It was...
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ISKRA So an AT-28 is a tactical version of the T-28? MCGREGOR Well, yeah.
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There's an A, B, C, and D model. I got to fly every single model of the T-28.
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And a pretty cool airplane. Just a tremendous airplane for all that it was asked to do.
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ISKRA It looks like a handful of airplanes.
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That is not for amateurs, that one. MCGREGOR Well, it was my Corsair.
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It was like my Marine Corsair, you know, I mean, I grew up as a Marine kid.
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You grew up reading every book on World War II and every flying, I read every flying book.
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I knew Pappy Blankens' entire life story, you know.
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My dad knew a lot of those people and he was, he was not an aviator, but he,
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he was a great Marine and he was a World War II, Korea, Vietnam vet.
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We just had a tremendous career and lived a long life to 93.
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What did your dad do in the Marine Corps?
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My dad was the head of the Marine band. He was a band officer, which means-
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No way. That is amazing. That's awesome.
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When you go to war, you are chief of security. So when he went to Da Nang, he was chief of base security there, took his troops out on patrols and everything.
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Thing and say he never lost never lost a man and his troops revered him I might I have a million
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stories that my dad one is that I when I was a kid I asked him I said how come the Marines.
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Don't have name tags I said the Navy and the Air Force and the Army they have name tags so he said
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how do you tell the people under your command? And he looked at me and really sternly, he said,
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In the Marine Corps, you know your people, you don't need some silly name tag on the shirt.
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And you take care of them and you don't need, you don't need a name tag.
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And I thought, wow, that's really good answer. I thought it's interesting.
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Some of his, some of his troops were at his funeral and they said, your dad helped me go from
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a 19-year-old kid out of control to adulthood. So he was great, a great Marine. He took real pride,
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taught us, you know, as a young child, people always want to know what things molded me or
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formed me or motivated me. It was really growing up as a Marine kid, because if you've ever seen
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the great Santini and everything, there's a lot of truth to that movie. You don't act subpar,
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you don't give up, you don't go to your Boy Scout meetings with the wrong uniform on, you know, and
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right. He had a Boy Scout troop master who was a Marine gunny sergeant. So I was a senior Marine
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for two years. I mean, really, that's, and you know, at the time, we didn't appreciate.
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When you would not be living on Marine bases, and you got out in the real world, you had no concept
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of how great that training was. Yes. And I'll just tell you, for those people who don't
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comprehend what it's like growing up on a Marine Corps base.
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When I was eight or seven, I was throwing rocks near the railroad tracks one day in Quantico because I like throwing stuff.
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I like doing right. Yeah, boys do. That's a very good picture.
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And literally, yeah, and I'm throwing rocks and I'm hoping a train would go by.
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So maybe I could get the train or something.
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And this Marine Major, I'm afraid he's in his greens And he's in this very small little kind of like little Rambler Nash Rambler car or something driving by screeches to a home.
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And he yells out his window, not stop throwing those rocks or, hey, what are you doing?
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Or, hey, kid, come over here. I want to talk to none of those things that you would expect.
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He said, cease and desist that action.
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I had news for people. 8-year-olds do not understand, first of all, the word cease.
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I never even had heard that.
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Cease and desist that action. And then he drove off.
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I went home terrified, and I told my dad, I said, what do these words mean?
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And looking back, the greatest education I ever had in my entire life that prepared me for
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everything was being grown up on Marine Corps bases and being in a Marine Corps Boy Scout troop,
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and going to all those parades and watching them play the national anthem every Sunday,
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pulling the big flag down and going to sunset parades there in Washington and learning about
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history, pride, taking pride in your commitment, your career and your duty.
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How in the hell did you not end up as a Marine Corps aviator?
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Well, my dad told me, he said, look, you want to fly. I don't want to see you sitting behind
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a desk in the Marine Corps. After one stint, he said, you will always be a Marine at heart.
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Do not worry. And, you know, I was with much to the chagrin of the Air Force.
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So I always butted heads with because I was more of the Marine guy.
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Yes. And they didn't know how to handle that. Oh, I totally I totally get that in more than one way.
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Trust me when you say I am.
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I am loved or hated by Air Force people that will tell you about Brian.
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Sure. Yeah. They go like, well, it was just it was just a flaming,
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you know, guy since he was a man. That is fantastic.
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It prepared you for everything from laying in the hospital, almost dying to.
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To working out in the gym and taking pride in yourself and never giving up.
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And I read everyone else Marine Corps books and row, which I, I, that was my whole high school years because I was fascinated by it and I'd walk,
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into the officers clubs and see the paintings on the wall and say, what is quality?
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You know, what is That's a great segue. I kind of, I'm very, I'm very intrigued about, so you, obviously
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you went through a pilot training and then you got AT-28. So talk us through that.
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What were you, what were you doing over there in the AT-28? What was that mission like?
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Counterinsurgency was a big thing. And what they were doing was training Laotian, Cambodian
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and Thai pilots to, you know, they bought all these T-28s from our country and they
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going to use them as a counterinsurgency against the Khmer Rouge. So they were using them as
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close air support type airplanes? So they needed people to train them in advance, you know,
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and how to fly the airplane and be safe and everything. And it was a special ops wing and,
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no name, no rank, and they didn't have any American markings on the planes or anything.
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But mostly we were just, we were just training guys. It wasn't always real exciting. You know, Some days it was.
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It was a near the end of the war and we weren't supposed to be in Cambodia. So we weren't,
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we were like people denied our existence over there. We worked closely with Air America. They
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were in the same building right next door to us and everything. But I never wore any rank or name
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tag in my flight suit for a little over a year over there. And the day my plane went down,
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you know, I wasn't even supposed to fly the second go of the day. And I was leaving. I said,
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I said, I got a handball match at four o'clock.
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I'm gonna go home, take a nap. I've been up since five. And then, so don't bother me.
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And the guy said, yeah, you know, you're trying to build hours.
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You wanna get into jets. When you get back to the States, you need to build hours.
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So I turned around and said, all right. That's always the hook, right?
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Oh, you gotta build hours for something, right? Different job, airline, pilot, job, something, right?
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So I said, okay, I turned around and I took, and my mission that day was to deliver cadmium batteries
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to a forward operating location, basically we were real familiar with,
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south of Thailand there.
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It was a very simple thing. I had a real good little airplane
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and it was gonna zip down there, zip back.
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And something happened about 10 miles from the field and the CIA guys, they came briefly later,
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said they think I was shot down.
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I don't really care which it was. All I know is I had no throttle,
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I had no power and my airplane was just sinking into the jungle and I was already too low to bail out.
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There wasn't any option.
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So I thought, well, this is it. You're gonna die and hit the jungle and there'll be a fireball.
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It's just be an awful thing. So just close your eyes tightly, clench your fist.
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And I always tell you in my talks, I always make a joke and say,
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I figured I'd wake up in heaven painlessly in a second.
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And then when I saw the fire. That didn't happen. Well, when I saw the flames around me,
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I thought maybe it went the other way, so. Oh, shit. Right on.
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Anyway, I quickly got myself out of the plane and that was a miracle in itself. There's a bell.
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About 20 or 25 miracles in my story that had to happen for me to be here today talking.
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Hey, Punchy, just let's back up for a second. The AT-28, ejecting was not an option. It did
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not have an ejection seat. Some of them had a Yankee extraction seat in them,
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which was some form of ejection. Some just had a hard seat. Mine was the hard seat that day.
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Okay. All right. So you had to bail out the old-fashioned way, which really you needed
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altitude and airspeed did do. Yeah. Okay. Thank you.
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So it was, uh, I'd say about, uh, about 25 miracles had to happen for me to even still
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be here today. I had like 50 rounds of tracer ammunition in my vest. None of that went off.
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I had, uh, I had a melted visor, so I did everything blind. I couldn't see, it couldn't
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get out the right way of the airplane because a tree was there. So now you did everything
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backwards and your, um, your connections melted so that the quick disconnect, uh, 40 pounds
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a quick disconnect pressure for like say a radio Concorde was now in a because it melted
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so fused together used.
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So I did some amazing super universe hero strength things and I actually broke a Concorde
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in half to get out of the airplane.
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Wow. Cost me to this little finger but they built a little hinge joint on so they couldn't flunk me on the physical.
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But anyway, that's another story. I got out and the special forces guys got to me fairly quickly, and I was kind of in
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but I wasn't in pain, I just was numb.
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And so they got me back to Thailand. And then that night of C9, just for me, picked me up at Thailand,
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took me all the way to Kadena to the burn to a hospital where burn team came from Fort Sam Houston just for me.
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A nine man burn team was flown out just for one guy in this room in the hospital there at Camp Coon and then let the games begin.
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Unfortunately, the numbness wore off.
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It wasn't funny, it was where you learned a lot about yourself, life, God, and choices you make.
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And that's the basis of my talks today, it's about attitude, choices, and perspective.
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That's my three main points.
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And attitude is something you can't teach, but it's something that's vital to everything
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you do. And I had a bad attitude the first few weeks as I said, please God, let me die. I can't do this.
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This is really bad. And I went from 180 pounds to 119 and that was, yeah.
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Over what kind of period, uh, punchy, two to three weeks. But you, you couldn't fight at that strength.
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You, your strength level was so low. Your mental level just said, why, why am I even fighting?
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I'll never fly again.
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I'll never do anything again. I won't even, my body won't work right again. And this is way too much pain. And I haven't even
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started the surgery or therapy phase. That'll be take a couple of years, you know, so you just sort
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of want to give up, which was against everything I had just alluded to earlier about being a.
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Camp Pendleton, being a Marine kid. So there had to come a little reckoning where you had to
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readjust that attitude, which I did. But I don't ever hesitate to tell people my talks.
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This is not a talk about bravery or heroics. It's a talk about reaching rock bottom and realizing
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and the long journey back that's necessary what you have to do, and then making that choice.
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To do it, because you really only have two choices. You quit or you move forward. And
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it's that simple. Now, it doesn't mean it's the simple, it's the easiest choice. It might be the
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harder choice, but if you expected to have any life at all, then you better make that.
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Turn right at that intersection. Did anyone help you on that choice, Brian?
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No. No. Okay. We had many, many long, lonely nights there in the hospital, and it was just a matter
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of you personally putting up a fight or not.
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ISKRA And that was in the burn unit at Sam Houston? WARREN O'BRIEN In Okinawa, yeah.
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ISKRA Oh, in Okinawa. WARREN O'BRIEN Yeah.
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And then they met, then I got just enough, well enough to put me on a C-141 all the way
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back to San Antonio, or San Houston there, which is the burn center.
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And then I spent about a year there with all the surgeries. Good Lord.
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Well, they said you're never going to fly again and then once they said you're never
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going to fly again, I thought, well, why should I do all this therapy?
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I don't have anything to shoot for. So I pretended in my mind, I put a picture of an airplane up on the wall, which you weren't
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supposed to do. And that motivated me.
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I just pretended I'm going to fly again. And that got me down to sleep.
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The nurse was not real happy, but the doctor came in and said, if that picture motivates
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this guy to keep doing as well as he's doing with his therapy, then leave it up there.
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What kind of airplane was it that you had on the wall? I had a picture of an F-106 over the snowy mountains in Alaska and some
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old recruiting coaster that I thought was just the coolest picture and could have been any picture.
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Right. I just had to have something.
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Right. And burn the therapy, burn the...
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Injuries and therapies are so difficult to get through mentally and emotionally that you have to just call on everything you ever learned it.
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But every high school coach, every every sport you played in every Marine Corps thing you learned in being in that Marine Boy Scout troop.
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I'm telling you, that was that was good. I'm glad I went through that because those twenty five mile hikes, you know, as kids and we weren't supposed to be doing that.
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But he said, you can do it if you got the right attitude.
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You you never know why God puts you through things.
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And that's until I really think I was selected to. My mom even said that she said, oh, don't feel bad.
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But she said, you were selected to you.
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And I know it was hard to swallow initially. But it is. It is so hard.
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But it became in time a real. She was so right.
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My mom, the two finest people I ever knew on the planet were my mom and dad.
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They were just really great people.
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It's amazing to hear you say that. That's awesome. Yeah, absolutely.
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Without even, the people that met them and knew them would say a similar thing.
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But my mom, she said, I don't believe in miracles. I cannot.
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And I said, Mom, come on. But now I say that to people and God has a plan that we're not in control of the universe.
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We have to, it's how you respond. Right.
26:40
Can I interrupt you and just back up for a second and ask you, how long were you in Okinawa before
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they flew you to? It was only a couple months, but it seemed like about 10 years. A couple months,
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only a couple months, he says. Well, I mean, in human time, it was about less than two months,
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But in in burn patient time, I was about a 12 year.
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Yes. Oh, my gosh.
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That's OK. You can't do anything for yourself except tell you what went on in those two.
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But I will do you a show of favor and just say.
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You can do more than you think you can do when you have to, but even when you don't want to.
27:24
Yeah. Well, Punchy, we've had a previous guest on and he was burned pretty bad as well. And he,
27:34
gave us an insight. And I know my man, Repeat, also has insight because his son was also a
27:40
burn victim. So what an incredible experience. It is just, to this day, it's barbaric.
27:46
I like the way you said that it was an incredible experience.
27:49
You didn't say it was a horror or tragedy or you're a victim.
27:53
Because it really, you could say all those things. You said it was an incredible experience.
27:57
And you're exactly right. Looking back on it now, I learned more about life, myself,
28:03
what's important in life. For the rest of your life, it was a wonderful crash course
28:07
in life appreciation and learning.
28:10
Now, at the time, you said, what a horrible tragedy. Oh, it's horrible.
28:14
Yeah, but on the other side, it's when you have the retrospect.
28:20
Well, and I'm lucky enough to still be here to say I have that now, which is why I enjoy sharing my I don't like reliving my story so much.
28:28
I enjoy sharing what I learned from my story with my audiences now because they always think they're getting an airplane talk.
28:34
And I go, no, I'm using the airplane as a vehicle to tell a story.
28:37
Well, thank you for that. Thank you for sharing that with us.
28:41
So, okay, the aviator in me wants to, I got a lot of questions and repeat, I don't want to get in your way.
28:52
So, is there anything else you want to cover before I start firing questions, aviator questions? No, that's it.
28:56
Yeah. So, you, let's get into the aviation. You obviously made it back to a cockpit.
29:04
Against all odds, by the way, against all odds. How did you get there?
29:08
May I interject here? Yes, please do. It's never done by one man.
29:12
There's a lot of people helping you along the way that we never mentioned.
29:15
So I'm just gonna tell you one, besides my surgeon, who was the greatest army burn surgeon guy, loved me.
29:23
And he said, You are the.
29:27
Poster boy for my whole theory that the guys that do their therapy are the ones that are going to improve.
29:32
Well, one day, the Air Force was just pissed off with me because I wouldn't sign the discharge papers. Nice.
29:40
There's no way they could see me coming back to fly and every medical.
29:44
They're just across town, 15 minutes away. In San Antonio at Randolph is all the military personnel.
29:49
Were they were telling you just to go sign your discharge, you're going to be medically discharged?
29:54
Send them to me, say, just sign because we need to process you because there's no way your doctors have said that's the extent of injury.
30:01
Just forget it.
30:03
Great. No one asked me, no one briefed me, no one talked to me.
30:06
I just got these things and I throw them in the trash because they represented that you're giving up.
30:11
Yeah. Failure. Failure. Because you. Failure mode. Yeah. That was like.
30:16
And yeah, Marines aren't, Marines aren't raised that way. Oh, so there had to be a way, there had to be a way to get over this
30:22
that I couldn't even see. I couldn't even see a way to even talk to back to the Air Force to get back in.
30:29
And because there's no way I could pass it physical and everything.
30:32
So I just kept throwing them away.
30:35
And if you don't think miracles happen.
30:39
And this is one of 20 or 30. I'll just tell you one. I'm sleeping in my bed one day, and,
30:46
there's a man in an Air Force blue uniform, a full colonel, standing right at the edge of my bed.
30:52
And he's just staring at me. And I kind of wake up, and I go, who are you?
30:58
ISKRA Can I help you?
30:59
MCDOWELL And he says, are you Brian Shull, you Lieutenant Shull? And I said, yeah. I'm thinking they can't do anything more to me now.
31:08
He said, well, you know, he says, you realize you you've pissed off the entire United States Air Force.
31:16
And I said, what do you mean? He said, well, you know, you haven't been sending back those discharge papers.
31:22
You would send it three of them now. And so I thought he was like one of the personnel people there.
31:29
And I said, well, you know, if I do that, it seals my fate.
31:33
Then what's my plan then? I said, now, for me to get through all the therapy
31:37
they got planned for me, I gotta have some sort of goal, even if it's a fake one,
31:42
that I might get to fly again or something, or just, I know I'll never fly again, I already knew that.
31:48
So I said, so what's it to you? Who are you?
31:53
And he said, I'm the chief flight surgeon of the entire United States Air Force. I'm the top doc.
32:00
Nice. His office right there, Randall. the top flight surgeon of the entire Air Force.
32:08
He said, and I'll tell you what, I've talked to your doctor.
32:10
And he says, there's hope for you. And when you think you can pass a flight physical,
32:16
you come over and I will give you your physical.
32:20
Nice. I find the top student, nobody a question, but I'll be hard on you.
32:25
I won't give it, it's not a given.
32:28
And I said, wow, there's hope. So you're saying there's a chance.
32:35
Well, that's a miracle. And I said, why would you do that for me?
32:40
He said, well, I like your attitude, kid.
32:42
We need more guys like you in the Air Force. And I thought, I never forgot that.
32:46
And I thought, and my doctor came running in like, okay, let's get to work.
32:51
Right.
32:52
Jeez. Oh, God, really? I have a plan. I have a goal. And I knew I could never pass this.
32:57
I didn't, I wasn't being unrealistic, but that kind of stuff happened all through my,
33:03
so it isn't just one man.
33:05
There were so many doctors, nurses, therapists behind the scenes that went to bat for you.
33:11
And guys at personnel center going like, yeah, you can give them a chance, you know?
33:15
So I took that physical with him one day, it took two days, and the little bent finger
33:20
was the big deal, because they were gonna amputate these two fingers and they didn't,
33:24
so they had to put a titanium joint in this one.
33:26
But the fact that it moves meant they couldn't flunk me because I could grip.
33:31
You can grasp the throttles. They can't.
33:35
Hey, they, they rebuilt this whole entire hand. They didn't care about that.
33:38
As long as you can. Yeah.
33:40
I don't have feeling in half my hand. They didn't even ask me that, but as long as you can grip, you're good to go.
33:47
That's great. Next thing I know, um, uh, I have two, they said you have 48 hours to report
33:54
to a seven training and, uh, I think the jet recall at a T 38 first.
34:00
And, uh, I was so terrified as underweight. I was, I was nervous.
34:05
I didn't flown in a year and a half and I, I wasn't very good and I was weak.
34:08
I was 150 some pounds, but.
34:12
Punchy what's your normal fighting weight before that? Before the crash,
34:16
it was like one 78 when I was flying.
34:19
And, uh, you know, I was just underweight and a little bit weak and I was terrified and I was doing pretty bad in the first few weeks, but I wanted it so
34:29
bad that I had a mission.
34:32
And then as time went on, my body got stronger and stronger.
34:36
And then I got through A7 training, got to Myrtle Beach, and then we were selected to
34:39
being the first A-10 squadron.
34:42
And by then I was coming back to full strength. And then I became, I was on the first A-10 demo.
34:47
What year is, what year, what year did you- It was like 75, 76.
34:52
Wait, was that when you got back in the airplane?
34:56
Yeah. And then Airman Magazine did that big story. And then that, my life was never my
35:01
own again after that. Once you're, once you're in Airman Magazine, the whole world,
35:06
they're in the Air Force. So you'd stop for a gas and go on a cross country and
35:10
And the trans alert guys would come out and go, Hey, you're the guy in the magazine.
35:15
Wow. But anyway, I got back and then I was on the, I got to instruct in eight
35:19
tens for four years in Tucson and do all the air shows and everything.
35:24
And it got stronger and stronger. Then finally, about three years after I got out of the hospital, I, I didn't
35:30
even care what I looked like anymore. And I just felt so good because I was healthy.
35:34
I had zero internal injuries. I didn't have any inhalation burns, nothing.
35:39
So speaking of miracles, my doctor said, you're young, you can you can recover from this.
35:46
He said, you know, you're going to have to work your arms and hands really a lot therapy
35:50
to get to get the strength back because they were terribly burned.
35:53
But I didn't lose any fingers and I didn't.
35:56
I was just lucky at every turn. So it I became the Air Force safety guy went to all the bases briefing safety talk on my
36:04
crash and how the equipment worked.
36:06
And it did a lot of good for all the pilots about how your gloves, your boots, your Nomex, everything did.
36:12
Because no one ever came back from that extent of injury to really brief them when they were there.
36:18
So I became, go take your A-10 and go to Dias, go to Randolph, go here, and you're briefing everybody
36:25
all over the air force.
36:27
So little did I know I was becoming so well known.
36:32
I didn't, here's the irony of ironies. I'm an introvert.
36:36
I like sitting out in the wilderness and watching my birds all day in the quiet. I'm an introvert.
36:42
I've never liked being in the spotlight. So now all of a sudden I'm in the magazine,
36:48
I'm in every safety meeting. They did a film on my safety meeting.
36:53
Now, you know, so now I hide out, you look behind me here. Yeah, this is my little cave I hide out in.
36:59
I write my books and I do my photography because I'm not, I don't crave that.
37:04
This is really hard. This is hard for you. I know this because I've raised three boys that are extroverts.
37:10
My daughter is an introvert.
37:12
Yeah, it's different.
37:14
Yes, it's, I thought there was something wrong with us because we.
37:18
Introverts are very talented people, they're very deep, they have good thoughts, so they can get
37:24
through it. And I read a whole book on it in one day and I thought, that's me, there's hope.
37:29
You read a whole book in one day, did you catch that? You just don't fit in, you know, you don't fit into your normal activities, the age you're at.
37:36
Oh, I totally get it. Can I stop you just for a second? I want to take some notes.
37:42
A7, how many hours did you get in the A7? Way too few, man. The greatest little cockpit they ever built in the history of jets, man. What a, what a Cadillac with a, with a plane. Underpowered, though.
37:55
Was it, was it, was it a, was it an accurate bomber? It was accurate. Very stable, right?
38:02
You kidding? You could drive nails with this thing. Right. Very stable, very stable bomber.
38:08
Anyone that ever, everyone that ever flew these said, well, I'll say the exact same thing. Yeah.
38:14
It was what a cut. So how many hours in that? Just give me the ballpark.
38:19
I had maybe three or 400 hours there because we only flew it for a couple of years
38:24
and they had all those engine problems with that Allison aluminum engine.
38:28
Then the A-10s come along. They said, your squadron is going to be the first A-10s.
38:32
So how many hours in the A-10 did you get?
38:34
The A-10 had about 2,200 or so in my head. I was Mr. A-10, doing all the air shows,
38:40
going all over briefings.
38:43
And you were the initial, was that initial A-10s?
38:45
Initial?
38:46
I was in the first, I was the 11th guy in the Air Force to get checked out in the A-10.
38:51
Well, I'd call that initial cadre. I don't know about you, Reed.
38:55
My commander looked at me one day, he said, drop an air show routine.
38:58
Just, you're good at that stuff. Just, just drop some of it.
39:00
Oh, man. How about that?
39:03
But that's a very, what a, what a great airplane.
39:06
You look in an A-10 today. Yeah. They got all that magic stuff in there.
39:09
We had blank panels, not one of, we had nothing in there.
39:14
Wow. We flew by the seat of your pants, reading a map, low level, and shooting the gun.
39:18
There was no GPS, INS, no magic stuff.
39:23
No.
39:24
Those guys acted as forward air controllers airborne for us over in Korea.
39:28
And those were talented pilots.
39:31
Those guys were able to develop a nine-line brief, mark it with a woolly peat, which is
39:36
a white phosphorous, and then we'd roll in with the heavy bombs.
39:41
But oh my God, what a tough mission, because it's like the A-7, single seat, but there
39:47
was no such thing as a two-seat A-10 ever, right?
39:50
Well, no. We started in solo, your first flight, it was generally an easy airplane to fly, but
39:56
It was difficult to employ with underpowered engines, flying low level and doing everything by the seat of your pants.
40:03
Yeah, you had, you were, we killed a lot of guys in A-10.
40:06
People don't realize in our early days.
40:08
Yeah. A lot of guys were killed in A-10.
40:13
Well, that's right. It was a low mission too. It wasn't, you weren't up in the stratosphere at all. I'm not at all.
40:19
And so then I went to, I was supposed to go to a staff job after that. And I fought it tooth and nail. And I said, look, I'll go to fighter lead in there at Holloman. Nobody wants to do that now.
40:31
I'll go there as the first A-10 guy to be, you need, you need some A-10 influence there. And they said, yeah, that's good. Okay. So they let me do that.
40:39
And then from there, I was really going to go to a staff job. They said, you're not getting out of that anymore.
40:46
And I said, man, where can I go as a senior officer and not, you know, and keep flying?
40:51
And the SR-71 was one opportunity. The U-2, leader of the Thunderbirds, I wasn't going to do that.
40:58
And the U-2 guys wanted me. So the SR guys, gee, with your first pilot time,
41:03
yeah, these are the kind of guys.
41:05
So at this time, Punchy, you're a lieutenant colonel? No, I'm a major. I was never a lieutenant colonel. They were going to make me a lieutenant
41:13
Colonel, if I played the game and did the. Sure, sure. So I was an academy graduate either. That
41:20
was another problem. I was just a guy that wanted to fly. And so my commander. That's not allowed
41:26
in the Air Force. Let's just say I was lucky to do 20 years in the cockpit and I didn't have a wife
41:34
and kids to put through college so I could I could not worry about the money and all that stuff. Yeah.
41:39
I don't know, life is short and I just, I don't regret a minute of it.
41:43
People always go like, well, you should have gone back, got that master's degree,
41:47
or you should have, you should have gone to the staff. You could have been this,
41:49
could have been that. Yeah, whatever.
41:51
Could have been dead too in the eight times. That's right. That's right.
41:54
Right. Woulda, coulda, shoulda. It's not the way you live life.
41:57
Never. Life is short and it goes by, people miss their opportunity.
42:03
So that's actually one of my questions. We've got kind of a transition there.
42:07
You see the SR-71 as a transition opportunity.
42:10
You go there. What's it called in the Air Force? It's not the RAG or the FRS. It's the...
42:17
But the replacement squadron, how do you get to you are to you replacing training up to you the replacement training unit? So um the thing is
42:27
Uh that airplane is just everything shy is secret that the fact that it even exists is well
42:33
Hold on a second. Let's let's back up a second. Okay,
42:36
How does that even take place? How do you say?
42:40
I want to throw my name in the hat for that. That's a good question. That's a good question,
42:44
I'm sitting in my office one day out of, out of ideas going, Oh God, I'm the staff jobs coming.
42:50
I would get the scissors out now, cut those wrists. So I thought, I just happened to, you're not going to believe this.
43:00
I just happened to have an airman magazine in my hand and looked through and it says
43:03
U2 and SR-71 pilots needed, because they really did.
43:08
They just weren't keeping the flow going. You gotta be shitting me.
43:11
A sack on those airplanes. So just like the help on it in the back of the magazine.
43:17
The squadron, and I said, Hey, this is who I am. And he said,
43:19
Oh, man, put your application, we would love to have a guy with your background, but you're intact. You're in tactical air
43:26
command. They're not letting their guys go to this. And I said, Well, man, let's if you guys want me, we'll figure out a
43:33
way to do this. So I called Langley. Yes, I'm the guy. And the colonel said, if you ever asked that question, again, I
43:39
I will personally see that you're court-martialed.
43:41
You are coming to the stand.
43:43
And I thought, whoa, wrong number there. I'm not talking to the FBI anymore.
43:47
Oops, wrong number. Wrong number, wrong number.
43:51
Just so happened that the wing commander was somebody that I played racquetball with.
43:56
I was the base champ in racquetball. And so he always would say,
43:59
pull Shul up for the afternoon flight. I want to play racquetball.
44:03
Yeah, I'm going to beat him today. He's beat me seven days in a row.
44:07
Today's my day. Pulled him off the schedule, right? And I told him what I wanted to do.
44:12
He says, you really want to do that?
44:13
And so then I went to see the general and the general said, he said, why don't you come be my aid,
44:19
and I'll take care of you, give you an F-16 after three. I said, yeah, but those three years of being your aid
44:24
will kill me, you know that.
44:26
Anyway, we sidestepped, the colonel was gonna court-martial me and my general called the gun,
44:34
he called the general at SAC and said,
44:36
Look, if you need fighter guys this bad, why don't we just send one per fiscal year
44:41
and make a deal that someone has to fly that airplane.
44:46
And everybody agreed on that. So they said, if you can wait six months, we're going to send an
44:50
F4 guy from Seymour Johnson, and then you're next. You're going to be the first A-10 guy to go to
44:55
that program. But then you had to do a week-long interview and everything, pass an astronaut
44:59
physical and everything. Weeklong interview? Weeklong?
45:03
Yeah. Well, you do two flights in a T-38. You do two days of physical at Travis. You do a day of
45:10
getting to watch the airplane launch, guy suit up and wet in your pants watching the takeoff and
45:15
and everything. Boom, you get a day in the simulator.
45:18
And you get to actually see. Yeah. And the coolest thing is- What was the- The sim was great.
45:24
Punchy, let me ask you, what were the two flights in the T-38 like?
45:27
What were they looking for?
45:28
They just- They're looking to make sure you're airmanship. You flew with the commander and the ops officer,
45:35
just to, and they're just real stickler sack guys. You know, I wanted to slap them a couple of minutes.
45:39
Well, you got 200 feet off your altitude. And you're like, yeah, is that a problem? Okay, I got it.
45:44
Okay. All right. I understand now. There were some cooler heads in the squadron said, hey, the guys get, you know, 3000 hours
45:54
of great flying.
45:55
He said, it's a fighter cockpit.
45:58
Come on. Yeah. So you're getting ready to say the coolest part of it was?
46:03
Um, I made me forget what I was going to say. So I'm sorry.
46:08
The oh, oh, when they gave me the simulator thing, I thought, man, this is top secret.
46:13
They're letting us, we're applicants, see the simulator and I go, oh yeah, oh yeah.
46:18
So it's so cool. They put you in the front seat and you are just overwhelmed with where you are sitting in this big thing.
46:27
And you go, but you don't want to pretend, you want to pretend like you're cool, calm and can handle this.
46:35
You don't want to show signs of, I'm that eight year old kid, wet his pants now standing
46:42
by that F-106 at the air show.
46:43
No, so you're going in. He said, I'll tell you what, I'm just going to run you up to altitude
46:48
about 82,000 feet and put you at about Mach 3 so you don't have to worry about all that.
46:53
And then you see how you like that.
46:56
I go like, yeah, OK, like it's an everyday thing. Sure, yeah. Mach 3, fine.
47:02
You're flying the jet and you're doing all this and you're watching.
47:05
You don't even know what half these gauges are.
47:07
And he says, how would you Do you think you could hand fly here at Mach 3.1?
47:14
And of course, you what are you going to say? No, I don't think I'm good enough to. Yeah. Yeah.
47:19
Of course. Well, sure. When you're best Mickey Mouse voice. Sure I can do that.
47:25
Sure I can, Mr. Exactly. He says, how do you think you can fly if the.
47:31
Flight controls augmentation system was off?
47:33
And again, you're not going to say, oh, well, no, I don't think I'll try that.
47:37
Yeah, well, sure. So he kept going about five or six questions.
47:43
Well, the truth is, you cannot fly the airplane with the augmentation system off.
47:47
The airplane does two loops and then it breaks in half.
47:51
Gets in a PIO and then it just comes apart. Yes, exactly.
47:55
So you don't know that, so you go, sure, I'll try that. So the next thing that happens is the jet goes, and the simulator goes, and he says,
48:06
oh no, you've broken the sim.
48:11
And he said those exact words. And you saw your whole career just flash before your eyes.
48:15
The only sim in the whole Air Force to this jet. You have just broken on a stupid application
48:21
that you should never even be allowed to touch the part of the airplane.
48:26
You just you get yourself out. If you will just exit the sim.
48:31
And you're so you're so your flight suit is sticking to the seat.
48:35
You're so wet with sweat.
48:37
You didn't want to show them you couldn't do it. But sitting sideways now is an added insult.
48:42
Oh, yeah, you got to climb out sideways. You got to climb out the right.
48:45
And the sergeant sitting at the control panel looks at you with a sneer, like shaking his head.
48:53
And they send you down the hall to go wait in that room. And I'm sitting in that room going, all right, your career's over.
49:01
You should have never. This was a bad idea. Bad idea. The only guy that broke the free world simulator, the SR-71.
49:10
And a little later, they come down and said, you can just leave now.
49:16
You know your way out. Just leave.
49:18
Oh, geez. And the next day you're supposed to meet the commander
49:21
at the officer's club. Now I have a drink at everybody, you know, and everything.
49:25
Okay, so fast forward now, two and a half years.
49:30
I'm an SR pilot and we're on our first deployment to Kadena and we're flying real missions now.
49:37
And we're at the officer's club and the guy who gave me the SIM is standing right there.
49:42
And we always had two crews there.
49:45
And I said, man, I just got to ask you, how did you, I really appreciate that you recommended me for this job,
49:53
but how did you, when I brought the SIM and I did, he said, he laughed, he said,
49:58
Brian, we do that with everybody.
50:00
It's not a, nobody can fly the airplane in this way we have it set up.
50:05
Everyone breaks the SIM.
50:06
He said, but he said, I recommended you with an extra plus. He said, you were one of our best candidates. I said, really?
50:14
He said, you never said no. I gave you every choice to say, I just don't think I could do this.
50:19
He said, it was a stress test. It wasn't a flying test. It was just who was calm under pressure.
50:26
I said, you totally had the attitude I was looking for. It had nothing to do with porn.
50:31
Attitude, choices, and perspective, as you said earlier, right?
50:34
I was so amazed to hear that. I thought.
50:38
Well, yeah, I've always had that kind of attitude in life that calm under pressure kind of thing.
50:44
So, thank you. It's a great segue. I want to know, so how big is that cockpit? How large is it?
50:55
Actually, it's a good size. I mean, but when you wear the spacesuit, it fills it up pretty good.
51:01
So, like compared to an A-10?
51:05
Similar, the A-10 was a big cockpit, and it's kind of similar now, but maybe not that much.
51:10
Okay. And so, to tell our listeners that are not familiar with this part of aviation, why on
51:18
earth are you wearing a spacesuit to fly this jet?
51:21
Well, you're going above 50,000 feet. You're living in the 80s.
51:25
So if anything happened, you had to eject or anything.
51:28
The spacesuit is supposed to be your protection. But also in the cockpit, if you lose pressurization.
51:34
Now the cockpit's pressurized to 25,000 feet, so it doesn't have such a differential, but
51:40
it's still, you're in a hostile environment if anything goes wrong.
51:44
The cockpit is pressurized to 25,000 feet. Let's touch on that for a second.
51:51
So for our non-aviator listeners, the normal cockpit pressure, the normal cabin pressurization
51:59
on an airliner is somewhere around 6,000 to 7,000 feet.
52:04
Yeah. Yeah. Tops, when you're at 38,000 feet in an airliner.
52:08
Yeah, it tops off at 8,000 or something.
52:10
Yeah. No, we were at 25. Then it started going up as you got above the...
52:17
Yeah, that's why he's wearing a pressure suit.
52:21
Yeah, yeah, if you and if you did lose all the all your pressure, you couldn't survive up there for very long without.
52:26
Oh, can it would you mind just just quickly, because we've never talked to a YouTube pilot yet. So that so you're you're you're the first high altitude guy we ever talked to what are the physiological ramifications of being at altitude and having a depressurization, especially at those altitudes.
52:49
Well, your suit inflates, so they do this to you in the sim as a practice, and the suit
52:55
goes to full inflation, so now you're like the Michelin man, you can't hardly bend your
53:01
arms, so it gives the normal pressure on your body.
53:04
But if you didn't have that, what bad things physiologically would happen to you if you
53:10
didn't have a pressure suit on?
53:13
Well, you'd freeze and you would have trouble breathing. expire very quickly. Every molecule of air in your body would come rushing out.
53:24
Yes. It would be a very rapid de-escalation of life force. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's your survival series.
53:35
Yeah, it's hostile. Totally, yeah. Very hostile environment.
53:38
That's kind of what I was getting at. Yeah.
53:40
Wow. And not only is it a hostile environment pressure or just physiologically, but you're,
53:46
flying at speeds that are kind of unfathomable for, you know, the average ground walking person.
53:55
Well, you're doing a mile every two seconds.
53:59
That is wild. Or faster. Or faster. Well, you did go faster than that, didn't you? I think I read somewhere that at one
54:06
point you pushed the throttles up to outrun maybe something that was pointed in your direction.
54:12
Well, I was. And you actually increased your fuel efficiency by doing so.
54:16
Actually, the faster you went, the better mileage you got. That's very true.
54:20
Yeah. But we were the guys that did the Libya raid in 86 when Reagan, Bob Qaddafi, we did the
54:26
post and pre-strike of reconnaissance.
54:29
And now if you recall, you're probably too young to remember, but- No, we're not.
54:34
We are not, my friend. France would not let us overfly. April 15th, 1986.
54:37
And I remember that very, very distinctly.
54:38
18, 1986. And I remember that very, very distinctly. We went to the Straits of Gibraltar, into Libya, and then back. It's a five and a half
54:47
hour mission. And we're the only crew in history that flew three missions in three days. The
54:54
other crew flew two, and the other crew flew one, and then they rotated out. So we had
55:00
three in three days, and they almost went a fourth day. Reagan just called it off, and
55:05
were so exhausted. I was very few. Were you flying out of Cadeen at the time?
55:11
No, England. Mildenhall, right? Mildenhall. Yeah, at a Mildenhall.
55:18
We did that, did that. So we did three in three days. So it just was, I know what you
55:26
guys weren't denied permission to fly over France, were you?
55:29
Oh yeah. So Margaret Thatcher said, we'll let the SRs launch against would be. And that
55:35
was the day everyone feared reprisals. That's why to this day, one SR is on display at Duxford.
55:41
They got one of all the 30 museums that they got one.
55:46
Oh, no kidding. That's the one we lay over right there in Cambridge, right by Duxford.
55:49
And I've seen that bird. Okay. I didn't realize that bird was there that day.
55:54
Okay. You mean it got stuck there? It was awarded because it got stuck there?
55:58
No, no. When they retired the airplane, they put them all in museums. Oh, okay.
56:01
And we said, we'd like you, we trust that you'll take care of it.
56:05
I thought maybe they said, nope, you can't have this one back.
56:08
Well, the guys in Okinawa wanted one there, too, and we didn't give them one because we
56:13
knew they weren't going to take care of it.
56:15
They'd loop the pieces and rip the stuff off them.
56:17
And sure.
56:19
So, uh, how many hours in the SR-71 did you get? I only had about 500 hours.
56:24
You only flew once or twice a week.
56:27
Um, so that's a horrible question to ask. Let me, let me rephrase this in another way, because when you're doing, when
56:34
you're, so, so 500 hours in that airplane is really like 2000 hours in a, in a,
56:40
normal. Kind of. I had about 74 HOT missions and it was almost four years. Good lord. So I mean,
56:49
let's think about that repeat. I mean, you know, you know, we were flying three quarters of an
56:54
hour to an hour at a time, right? Maybe?
56:57
In doing, you know, sometimes we were going fast, but not any kind of speed like that.
57:03
Well, the good part was when your day's off and you didn't fly the Blackbird, you're flying T-38s
57:07
a lot of times. I was a T-38 instructor, so I got to fly chase on the SR-LOD, and that's how I got
57:13
a lot of those cool pictures from my books and all. Now, I don't like to call them books.
57:17
So when you say fly chase, tell about that. What does that mean?
57:21
Well, we had a program called Pace Chase, and what that meant was when the SR came back into
57:26
land and they got subsonic over Mount Lassen area, you know, the 38 would join up on them
57:31
and just be there in case there was any emergencies or needed assistance. And you had to you had to
57:36
get checked out and not to fly too close and where where's the danger areas and the speeds of the
57:41
airplane. So I was always checking guys out and pace chase and there was no nothing illegal or
57:46
anything about taking pictures from the T-38. We got some beautiful shots of Mount Lassen.
57:51
Probably most of the SR-71 pictures I've ever seen are probably pictures of yours. Some might be.
57:58
Lockheed has a very good collection of pictures because they came out a couple of times and.
58:03
Really did a photo shoot of the airplane.
58:07
But it was rare to get. My collection is the world's rarest collection of shots because they're just daily things,
58:14
that I wish I'd done more.
58:16
I wish I'd done more. And if you don't mind me asking, I know the SR-71, so the SR-71 was the—.
58:29
Recognized version, I guess. And then the A-12 was the CIA version. Is that correct?
58:34
Yeah, you got to realize the jet was originally an interceptor. So they had big radar on the nose
58:40
and they carried missiles and everything, the A-11. And Kelly Johnson sold this to the Air
58:45
Force and they were going to buy 93 of these airplanes, 93 of them. Now, what was the big
58:52
threat in those days? Well, it was bison bombers coming across the polar ice cap bombing America.
58:58
Because everyone's afraid of Russian bombers. So then you needed interceptors. Okay, that's why every jet they built
59:04
in the 50s was an interceptor, the F-86D, Scorpion, you know,
59:09
and even the SR-71. So all of a sudden, the threat changed. It,
59:14
was ICBMs. And the Air Force said, Hey, you know, that order of 93 we're gonna take? Forget it. We don't want it now. And.
59:22
Kelly was beside himself. And he goes, Hey, we there has to be a need for a Mach 3 airplane that actually works. And this is
59:28
insane. You can't just just cancel the whole thing. And they said, he said, What if we take a put a second seat in, take the
59:37
radar and weapons out. And we can give you a reconnaissance vehicle that can keep track of those. Air Force went, Hmm, not
59:46
a bad idea. Nobody else flies that high that fast. We don't want another Gary power situation. Next thing you know,
59:54
They said, give us, give us a 50 and when the 50, 35, 35.
1:00:01
So that's why the SR had a life. It would have been in a museum as another experimental.
1:00:07
But did it not have a kind of a high accident rate? Sorry, not really.
1:00:12
They built 50 total blackboards and they probably lost nine or.
1:00:16
10 of them and crashed. But the accident rate per flying hour wasn't that bad. Okay. Okay.
1:00:22
What was the price tag of a shiny new SR-71 to get one off the showroom floor? Yeah, roughly.
1:00:27
I don't know, except that they told us one time per hour cost to run it for an hour is $100,000.
1:00:34
Yeah, I believe that. That's a lot of, you know, it's a lot of fuel.
1:00:39
Well, so yeah, so that brings me to one of the questions I wanted to ask.
1:00:42
It is, that's an expensive number until you figure out all the support that it took, because it wasn't just, it wasn't just one crew chief, making sure your ejection seat was good to go and fueling it up.
1:00:56
The Achilles heel of the program was the tanker support. So you had five or six tankers dedicated to each mission and they did it for 25 years.
1:01:04
They were SAC tankers. They had special fuel for us, everything.
1:01:07
And then eventually one day in the 80s, almost up to 1990, they said, we just can't afford to keep doing this.
1:01:14
We don't have enough tankers to go around to everybody.
1:01:17
Wow. And they said, the Cold War is over. We can live without it.
1:01:20
But they shouldn't have retired it. It should have flown for at least five or six more years.
1:01:23
I was shocked when they retired that airplane before and the U-2 is still flying.
1:01:28
You're like, you got to be kidding me, right? You know, the mission.
1:01:31
The U-2 is very expensive in comparison. That makes sense. And you said the special fuel.
1:01:36
So what was special about the fuel? Yes, you can throw a match, you can throw a match into a bucket of this fuel
1:01:42
would extinguish the match at a very low flashpoint.
1:01:45
So the fuel was not flammable.
1:01:49
So we had to have a chemical agent, a triethyl borane on board that kind of created a minor
1:01:55
explosion in the back end of the airplane to light off the fuel and the afterburner.
1:02:00
It was just an amazing that they could even build an airplane like this in the late 50s, early 60s.
1:02:09
So it is Skunk Works, which is a great, great book if no one's ever read it.
1:02:17
And by the way, I want you to pimp your books before we're done, because they're awesome
1:02:24
read. Let me just say, let me just ask this.
1:02:27
So you alluded to tanker support, and I know that because of the metallurgy on the airplane,
1:02:35
in other words, it couldn't be built out of normal metal, aluminum, because of the heat
1:02:42
generated from the speeds.
1:02:44
So they had to build out of a special metal.
1:02:47
And from what I understand, you couldn't take a full bag of fuel when you took off because
1:02:52
of the seams, the seams weren't...
1:02:55
No, no, no. Everybody gets it wrong. Can you talk about that?
1:02:59
They got it wrong because that old show Wings used to...
1:03:02
The guy said it wrong when he said, as it takes off, they don't have to take...
1:03:06
Can you talk about that, please?
1:03:07
Yeah. What happened was the titanium heats up and when they first started flying the jet, the
1:03:13
jet was expanding about four to five inches in flight. it just grows because it's so hot.
1:03:18
Well, it was cracking the titanium. So they went, man, we got to figure out a way.
1:03:23
The fuel's not flammable.
1:03:24
Let's just build expansion joints into the plane and let it leak when it's subsonic or on the ground.
1:03:30
The leakage, we don't care about that. It's not that bad.
1:03:34
So every picture you see of the jet has a puddle underneath it.
1:03:37
It's not flammable or anything, but it's a mess.
1:03:41
So as you take off, the reason you take off with half a fuel load simply that in case you had to abort with 80,000 pounds of gas, that'd be really hard. You just
1:03:50
take off with 45,000 counts and you top off, we hit the tanker. It has nothing to do with the leakage.
1:03:57
It's just so you can take off in a normal manner. So now you top off when you hit the tanker.
1:04:03
And now as you accelerate through about near Mach 2, the jet seals like Tupperware and
1:04:08
you don't lose another drop. Very good.
1:04:10
You only got to get to Mach 2 for that rebeat.
1:04:13
Yeah, right. That's why there's a puddle under every Marine jet, just to prove that there's still oil
1:04:17
and fuel in it. The puddle under the Marine jet is to show all the oil and fuel that we're making.
1:04:23
We still have some in it.
1:04:24
Yeah, if it's not leaking, you've got a problem. I've never seen dirtier airplanes.
1:04:29
And I went to Red Flag and I parked next to the Marine jets.
1:04:31
I mean, the F-4s were like just streaked with hydraulic fluid and oil. Right.
1:04:37
Really? You're going to fly that jet? Yes, well, yeah.
1:04:40
You're damn right, because if it was clean, I wouldn't fly it.
1:04:42
It means it's out. It's dangerous.
1:04:44
That's right. It's not leaking anymore. Yeah.
1:04:47
So can you tell me a little more about some of the aerodynamics in there?
1:04:50
Because I know there was some amazing stuff going on in that engine.
1:04:54
Because at a certain point, they couldn't slow down the air enough to hit the compressor, right?
1:05:01
Is that how do you say that?
1:05:03
The real headache for the pilot is to learn this new thing where the spikes of the inlets are moving after it accelerates.
1:05:10
Well, that's something new. You never had to work in other jets and all.
1:05:13
Right. Now, the big in simple terms, the big issue is what if one spike gets further back than the other, and you have this disparity, what happens?
1:05:22
Asymmetric.
1:05:24
That's right. You have a yaw moment. And at that speed, the yaw moment equates into hydroplaning and you lose the whole jet.
1:05:30
There's not a piece big enough to identify. And that's exactly how they lost several jets in the early days.
1:05:35
Which is means... Now guess what kind of computers they had in the airplane?
1:05:39
Which just equates to not finding the pilot in pieces because, I mean, yeah.
1:05:44
So there was no computers in the airplane in the early days or anything.
1:05:49
Eventually in the 80s, they put computers in to monitor the position of the spike so
1:05:53
that if one moved too far aft, the other one would sympathetically abort with it.
1:05:58
And it had to move forward to recapture the shockwave. Well, it cost you fuel, it was drag, it was terrible, but you weren't losing the jet.
1:06:06
So as a pilot, you had to monitor that very closely and carefully.
1:06:11
And then once you got to a certain point that the spikes were 24 inches full aft, then you
1:06:17
were just like a bullet, except faster. And then you didn't have that problem
1:06:20
because they were just that.
1:06:22
So as far as the throttle goes, I mean, as far as the pilot stuff, did you-
1:06:27
You're working the throttle all the time.
1:06:29
But I mean, but did the throttle control the position of the- No, the speed.
1:06:36
It was all speed controlled, one and five eighths of an inch per 10th of Mach number after 1.4 Mach.
1:06:42
These are numbers you will never forget the rest of your life.
1:06:44
Yeah, I bet. Then you're on a schedule. They were on a schedule for temperature, altitude, fuel, everything.
1:06:50
So the jet acted like a Ramjet, but it wasn't, it was a turbojet that got all
1:06:55
this free air bypassing the engine and dumping, that's why the faster you went, the more free thrust you got.
1:07:03
That's amazing. Hey, uh.
1:07:07
Much as I can tell. Well, but hold on. So, but let me finish that. That thought.
1:07:12
So I'm trying to do it for people that don't understand Ramjet turbojet. that sort of thing.
1:07:17
So you've got all this air and you're bypassing your compressors and your turbines
1:07:21
and you're throwing it right into the afterburner section. Right into the afterburner section.
1:07:24
Okay, and then the fuel and the fire mix and it's almost like rocket thrust at that point, right?
1:07:30
It'll sit up there for an hour and a half and you eat the ceramic tile and then it never overheats, never gets hot.
1:07:36
And they found the one J58 Pratt & Whitney that would do it.
1:07:40
The Navy didn't want it anymore and Kelly made it work And it was just a match made in heaven. That's a J-508 ESI.
1:07:49
Yeah, that's just... I'm amazed to this day, looking back at that technology,
1:07:54
that they could, with a slide rule, figure out some of the delicacies of that airplane
1:07:58
that are so precise. And it worked for a quarter of a century.
1:08:01
I mean, in 1990, it's still...
1:08:04
In 1970... Super computers weren't even invented yet. How did they know this?
1:08:11
Every speed and altitude record. And as we're sitting here today, in 2023, it still holds everywhere.
1:08:18
Yeah. Let's say in some punchy, you, you said this one time I, and I, in a Marine,
1:08:23
I, I was a little slow.
1:08:25
Can you tell me this again?
1:08:26
When you're doing, when you're doing normal speed and an SR 71 miles a minute, and you clicking off.
1:08:34
Well, you did about 32 miles a minute. We're faster than she thought you.
1:08:44
Like you said, Fig, hit just like a bullet, only faster. So, he's not kidding.
1:08:49
I'm sorry, but that just makes me laugh every time I hear that.
1:08:53
Your hunting rifle is 3,100 feet per second.
1:08:55
Yeah. Look at 30-06, we're at 3,200 feet per second. No problem.
1:09:00
So, that, but that 3,100 feet per second, that's coming out of the muzzle.
1:09:05
It slows down rapidly. Rapidly. Yeah, you're cruising at that for hours.
1:09:10
You're cruising at that. Oh my gosh.
1:09:12
We were not only cruising, it was just loving it at that altitude, it flew better.
1:09:17
It just knew where it was. That's awesome.
1:09:20
But the idea that they came up with to throw a spike in the intake that screws with the
1:09:26
shock wave so that you don't damage the engine and... Yeah. With primitive technology, make it work.
1:09:31
The best analogy I have come up with, and I use this in my talks, I said, imagine if,
1:09:37
If you want to understand how that technology should have never been able to go all the
1:09:42
way through the 90s and be that great.
1:09:45
Imagine if you go to the Indianapolis 500 race this year, you know, they always have
1:09:48
a pace car with some old car and you go, that's really cool.
1:09:54
And let's say you have a 57 Chevy in front of the pack of all those highly charged, ethanol
1:10:01
fuel or fuel drag racing, aerodynamic cars that they race in Indy. And when they come around and
1:10:10
the checker flag goes down, the pace car eases off the track. But no, let's say that 57 Chevy
1:10:16
stays on the track. And everyone goes, oh, the poor fool, he's just gonna be overrun. And let's
1:10:21
say the 57 Chevy wins the Indy that year. That's the equivalent of what this jet did for 25 years
1:10:28
built with a slide rule that the greatest nigs that they threw at us with their zoom climb and
1:10:34
and make 25 bucks, not one, not one was ever shot down.
1:10:41
So that brings me to the next question. And, and, uh,
1:10:47
Did you ever, were you ever flying a mission where you had a SAM or you had a MIG coming at you and you're like, yeah, no.
1:10:59
Can you talk about that?
1:11:01
We used to see the contrails, frozen contrails up over the Arctic Circle, some of the MIGs coming out and they try to zoom climb and then their white contrails would get all puffy and sparkly.
1:11:12
And you'd realize they're out of gas and ideas and they're falling out of the sky, hustling to get back home in that frigid winter air.
1:11:19
You've got four inches of throttle left in a nice Chevy. And you're going like, geez, John Wayne would have loved this airplane.
1:11:26
Yeah. And that's how great the airplane was.
1:11:32
So did you ever feel naked? Yeah, over Libya, when the whole world was watching and the Sixth Fleet was in the med
1:11:41
and everyone was holding their breath, Qaddafi fired two missiles at us and Walt said, we're
1:11:48
trying to hit the turn at Benghazi and we've got like 14 seconds to the turn.
1:11:54
And we got to get to the turn to get the shots. I think I read this before, but yeah, Walt goes, I got a launch signal.
1:12:00
We didn't get too excited. He says, I got a confirmed launch.
1:12:03
Then we got excited.
1:12:04
So we figured that missile's going to take 20, 25 seconds to get to us.
1:12:08
We got 14 seconds to the turn.
1:12:10
Yeah. We got 10 seconds to spare. Max burner, hit the turn.
1:12:14
As soon as you turn, that missile has to lead you by 32 miles.
1:12:17
It has to recompute a lead point now and it falls back down into their own town.
1:12:22
So we made that turn and he got out of his med. My hand was still pretty hyper there, adrenaline flowing.
1:12:29
I had my hand still up in the forward position.
1:12:31
He said, I think you can pull it back now. I have exceeded a lot of the numbers you're not supposed to, but what I did was I went to idle over Sicily.
1:12:43
And our tanker was waiting for us at the Straits of Gibraltar.
1:12:46
You look on a map and we never touched the throttles once from there all the way to the
1:12:51
tanker. Just as we pulled up to the KC-10, that's the first time I touched the throttles again.
1:12:57
I've never seen an airplane as thorough. I just want to run. And it was just like the movie
1:13:01
Seabiscuit where the guy says, okay, now the horse would know when to go. This jet knew where it was.
1:13:08
And it wanted to go. It didn't want to slow down. I came out of burner, I pulled it back,
1:13:13
and the Mach number didn't even, it just held it right there for a few seconds. I thought,
1:13:17
oh, jeez. She just wants to run, buddy. It wanted to run. It did. And we loved that jet
1:13:24
because it got us back. So, as a pilot, controls wise. Very honest, fun jet. It was a very stable.
1:13:34
What was a takeoff rotation and landing and like, well, you tell you rotate, I think around 210, lift off at 220,
1:13:41
the landing around 190, 180. Attitude. What kind of attitude are we talking?
1:13:46
Yeah, well, just enough so you can't see the runway.
1:13:51
Try that at night in the weather in England, bub. Oh, shit. So we're talking what?
1:13:56
One and a half, two degrees before you lift off and the kind of same kind of
1:14:00
landing attitude type thing?
1:14:02
Yeah, you're coming in, but it's got such a great ground effect with that big delta wing that,
1:14:08
landed pretty nice. And usually you're coming across the fence, usually close to one 90.
1:14:14
Did you have to worry about, um, asymmetrical thrust, uh, lose, like losing an engine on
1:14:20
takeoff kind of performance? You lost an engine on takeoff. You don't push the other one to max,
1:14:25
like you do in every other plane. You pull it out of burner. So that you can roll right on the run.
1:14:30
Yeah. You would have to stim a few times and you go, whoa.
1:14:34
Was it okay on one engine on a takeoff weight normally?
1:14:38
Well, yeah, you didn't want to do that, but yeah, yeah, I mean, you can hold that rudder.
1:14:44
And so, so you said about 195 was a ref coming across the fence on landing.
1:14:51
That's, that's, that's pretty fast.
1:14:54
That's impressive. Touchdown around 165, big drag chute, slow you down.
1:15:01
And brakes, or brakes, were brakes good on that plane? Drag chute was great, brakes were good, everything was, it was like a big F-106 and it's a big
1:15:08
Century Series, you know, airplane. Just was the biggest thing I ever flew.
1:15:13
It was big, 107 feet long.
1:15:15
That's big. Yeah. Yeah. That's long. She's long.
1:15:19
I've gotten them next to the one in the Udvar-Hagee Museum there in Washington,
1:15:22
D.C. area out near Dulles. Yeah, big airplane.
1:15:25
Gorgeous bird, though. Well, thank you.
1:15:26
You know, the thing is, that's the other thing that's about it.
1:15:28
You know, you look at the U-2 and you kind of go, well, that's neat.
1:15:31
It had, you know, it had its ability to do some pretty unique stuff.
1:15:35
Yeah. But you kind of go, okay, it looks like a great big glider.
1:15:38
This thing looks like something out of, you know, 2050.
1:15:41
It looks like a dart. One of the things I'm most proud of is when I wrote my second book, The Untouchables,
1:15:48
I got to interview some of the Lockheed guys that were on this airplane for most of their
1:15:53
career, and they never had a voice. No one ever got told what they do and can put them in a book,
1:15:58
and they told their families, I'm sorry, I can't talk about it. Well, I got to know these guys,
1:16:02
they stand around the hangar in their civvies, and you would say, who are those guys? Don't ask,
1:16:06
they know the airplane, if you have a problem, you know. So when it was all shut down, it was
1:16:11
all declassified. I went to the homes of these guys, had dinner with them, and I interviewed
1:16:15
them. They said, gosh, no one's ever asked us. This is so great that you're including our little
1:16:19
interview in your book. And they were so happy to talk. Well, there was one guy, he's about 80, 82.
1:16:27
And he's all white haired, looked like a little professor, and his wife was there with her gray
1:16:32
hair. And we were sitting down in their living room. And I said, okay, I gotta ask this question
1:16:39
and I've always wanted to ask.
1:16:41
You designed and invented a jet that didn't even look like it belonged in the same era that you built it in.
1:16:49
And there had to come a day when the very first one came off the assembly line.
1:16:53
And you saw it for the first time, you saw the Star Wars looking thing,
1:16:57
when you didn't even have Star Wars yet.
1:16:59
Right. What was that like as a lucky guy that he did the rudder,
1:17:05
he did the whole rudder section, he said.
1:17:07
I said, what was that like when you saw the first one, number one, come off the assembly line
1:17:12
and it would look like nothing else we had ever done.
1:17:16
And the guy started coughing and wheezing. I thought he was having a stroke. And his wife,
1:17:21
I said, is he okay? She said, oh, he'll be okay. He gets very emotional about this. I go, what?
1:17:28
And so finally he recovered himself. He said, it was the greatest day of my life. He said,
1:17:34
I worked on the stealth fighter. I worked on YouTube. But this, what we did, we knew we had
1:17:39
done something special. He said, it was that he said, you, you're the first person that's ever
1:17:45
asked me that he said, it was the greatest day of my life. And I thought, that's the answer I
1:17:50
wanted to hear. But I, I would have thought, yeah, yeah. Like, yeah, well, we just built another
1:17:56
airplane because it didn't look like it. I mean, if that I'm telling you, if that jet were designed
1:18:01
today in 2023, people would look at it and go, whoa, that's, that's sharp. That's advanced.
1:18:06
Well, all those guys are dead and gone now. All the 23 guys in that book that I interviewed,
1:18:11
they were so passionate about the airplane, more so than the pilots.
1:18:15
And they're all dead and gone, and they never ever had a voice to tell their story anywhere else.
1:18:20
So that book is The Untouchables, and it's available on... I just want to point out.
1:18:29
Say it again. I'm sorry. Go ahead, Bunchy. Sleddriver.com.
1:18:33
Sleddriver.com. Okay. Is that your website? Yeah. That's where they can order the books.
1:18:38
Yeah, find the bookstores.
1:18:39
Can I ask, and I don't know if this is a number that you know, just get me close maybe, get us close.
1:18:51
How many guys flew the SR-71? Ninety.
1:18:56
Nine zero? Yep. 90, wow. And we've had about 15 of them die now.
1:19:03
We've lost some guys.
1:19:05
90 pilots. So you know, you're kind of unique in the world of aviation.
1:19:13
I don't know if you're aware of this or not, sir, but you are very unique. How so?
1:19:21
Well, there's 89 other guys just like you, but I'll get back.
1:19:24
Okay, there's only 89 others. Wait, can I?
1:19:26
No, there's, you know, that's the thing, though, is that your background and everything you've done is put you know, you, you are,
1:19:33
I always say I appreciated it more than the other 89 just because of where I come from that journey, that long journey.
1:19:41
Oh, my gosh, was was one that when I maybe that's why I was carrying a camera around people thought I was already planning and doing but no, I just loved the fact that I was near this airplane.
1:19:52
And I liked photography and I I'm so glad that it was the one guy that appreciated it beyond words,
1:20:00
Was the one guy that took the pictures?
1:20:02
In a loving way in the book my books aren't technical books I didn't want to be I wanted to the the average airshow fan that says what was that like to fly the plane to have
1:20:12
a taste of Can I can I back way up way up?
1:20:17
I took a note earlier in our conversation, you made a note to Blue Angels and Thunderbirds.
1:20:27
Tell me about that. Blue Angels and Thunderbirds. What was your experience?
1:20:31
Well, when I got out of the Air Force, I thought I was going to be like a photojournalist,
1:20:34
aviation guy, because I knew everybody then and I could get backseat rides and new flights. And
1:20:39
I hooked up with this company, Mach 1, that did calendars and all. So I was getting backseat rides
1:20:44
all over the country in jets and all. And the one thing when I was a kid that I always wanted to do
1:20:50
that I really had this idea when I was a young lieutenant even, I thought no one's done really
1:20:57
good books, other than Martin Caden did a good book on the Thunderbirds in the 50s and 60s.
1:21:02
But no one's done good books on the airshow teams, two teams that affected my young life a lot going
1:21:07
to those airshows. So I thought I had this wild idea. And this goes back to my theory of attitude
1:21:15
and perspective and choices. And I called up the Thunderbirds, I said, I would like to fly
1:21:20
the backseat during your winter training season to document what has to be one of the hardest
1:21:26
training of three months in history that no one really knows about or understands how difficult
1:21:31
to put that air show routine together. And I'd like to do a nice book with the photographs and
1:21:36
on they said well we don't we don't let people fly with us during one of the training season,
1:21:39
forget that. So I'm out in an air show one day signing my SR-71 books and the leader of the
1:21:45
Thunderbirds in his red flight suit comes by and goes hey my daughter bought me your book on the
1:21:52
on the SR and I love it.
1:21:53
Can you do something like that for us? And I said, sir, I've been asking for a year.
1:21:58
No one will say yes. No one will let me do it. He said, I'll make that happen.
1:22:03
And again, in life, it's always, it takes one guy to open the door.
1:22:08
So I spent the whole winter training season with the Thunderbirds.
1:22:12
Didn't get to fly quite as much as I would have liked to, but they had some bad weather issues
1:22:16
and airplane issues going on.
1:22:19
So, okay, the Thunderbird book came out and it was really well-received,
1:22:23
we sold out of them and the team really liked it.
1:22:26
And they made me an honorary Thunderbird. I was so proud of that.
1:22:29
Besides being an Eagle Scout and growing up as a Marine kid,
1:22:33
I'm an honorary Thunderbird. I thought, that's pretty cool.
1:22:37
So I get pretty confident now. And about three or four years after I retired,
1:22:44
I call up the Blue Angels, said, I have a great idea.
1:22:46
You're gonna turn 50 years old in 96 and you don't have a good book to show for it.
1:22:53
I'm the guy, I don't throw up in the cockpit. I'm one of you, I'm a pilot and I'm better at my photography now.
1:22:59
And I wanna fly the entire air show season with you.
1:23:02
Well, imagine what a ridiculous question that would be. They hung up on me.
1:23:07
I made 400 phone calls. Everyone was met with, what are you, kidding?
1:23:15
Got in my car, drove to El Centro, where they do their winter training season.
1:23:20
Lettuce field on the Mexico, Canada, or California. Very familiar. Very familiar.
1:23:24
Went down there and there's no one there. I'm the only truck in the parking lot and 16 jets land.
1:23:30
And here comes the public affairs officer running out of the shack going,
1:23:34
who are you? What are you doing here? And then he goes, I know you.
1:23:40
You're the guy on the phone. You're the guy that keeps calling here.
1:23:43
And then I thought the next sentence was going to be arrest him immediately.
1:23:48
And he said, damn, you showed up. He said, we have athletes, senators,
1:23:55
famous movie stars. Everybody wants something from us and no one gives anything back.
1:24:00
You're the first guy said you want to do a book for us. He said, I'll give you 10 minutes of my
1:24:04
time. Went in his office. I had my Thunderbird book. And I said, this could be a two book set.
1:24:13
It's just so great. And he's thumbing through my Thunderbird book while I'm talking. I think
1:24:17
he's not even listening to me. And this is the picture, just the greatest photo opportunity
1:24:22
of your life. And you're wishing he would just listen to what you're saying. And he goes,
1:24:26
you can stop talking now. You've got a big fat error in your book. What?
1:24:32
Greatest, greatest air show. Yeah. One of the pictures, it said the formation doesn't get any tighter than this.
1:24:39
And he said, and then I'll never forget the words that he said to me, he said, you obviously
1:24:46
have not flown with the United States Naval Demonstration Team.
1:24:51
Is this like cease and desist? What did I say? Exactly. We can change this.
1:24:56
And I said, the light bulb came on over my head and in that two seconds, my entire life was changed.
1:25:04
If you can make this project happen, we could set the record straight.
1:25:05
I'm going to change this. I'm going to change this. I'm going to change this.
1:25:08
And there was a moment of silence, like, you know, when you go into burner in a Century Series jet, there's this little 10th of a second,
1:25:16
while the fuel dumps into the burner second before it lights off,
1:25:20
that we were in that little moment. And he said,
1:25:24
how soon can you get here and get all your gear here? And I said,
1:25:27
well, I'll be here tomorrow, if that's what it takes. I am the only guy in history.
1:25:32
And this will never be done again. We broke every rule in the Department of Defense.
1:25:35
And I flew with the team for an entire year. In 1996?
1:25:40
Yeah, with Lawman.
1:25:42
No. Yeah, Lawman was on the team. Oh, wait. Was Lawman... Yeah, Lawman was 95, 96?
1:25:49
Dino, Snooze, and Lawman. 96, you're right. You're right.
1:25:53
That's the... Oh, I was there in 94. I had to do it before they turned 50.
1:25:59
So you were in 94. Oh, that was Lawman's first year. Yeah, his first year because he was doing crap and they were giving him crap every day at the Dubris.
1:26:08
And he took it so well. He was so good.
1:26:11
And Dino goes, Hey Lawman, did you see that big blue thing next to your jet? Yeah, that was me.
1:26:18
It was great. It was the greatest year a photo guy, a photo journalist could ever wish to have.
1:26:26
What is that book called?
1:26:29
And that's called Blue Angels, a Portrait of Gold. It's out of print.
1:26:34
We sold them all so fast and we have to redo it because the book is done with film.
1:26:39
We got to digitize the whole thing.
1:26:42
So you say you can't get it right now? You can't be got? No, you can't.
1:26:45
They're out of print. And we have I have like one left.
1:26:48
I can show you. It's on the floor here. Hold on.
1:26:51
Can I come to your house and get it?
1:26:53
Right. Exactly. That's because I was going to ask him what it's going to take to get a set of all his books.
1:27:00
How about that Lawman? Lawman's on. We got Lawman on print. There it is. That's gorgeous.
1:27:07
That's Lawman's left wingtip right there, right there in the top of the...
1:27:12
Oh my gosh. Lawman was a great guy. All of them are great guys, but I'll tell you a little secret.
1:27:17
The first, the cover shot of the book, I shot 80,000 pictures that year.
1:27:24
This was the first roll of 36 at Bend, Oregon, the first show they let me fly that ended up being the cover shot was probably picture number 22 I took of the whole year. Unbelievable.
1:27:36
Wow. Beautiful book. We got the whole team marching down.
1:27:43
Hey, so... Was one man out of step? So, hey, so Punchy, since you got to fly with both the Thunderbirds and the Blue Angels,
1:27:58
and I don't want you to pull any punches.
1:28:01
You're going to say who's best. No, I don't want to say who's best. Who flew a Tiger Formation?
1:28:07
Well, you know, it's a good question, and you may not like the answer, but it has to you have to
1:28:12
answer with a caveat is that they fly a different kind of diamond formation. If you the Navy flies
1:28:18
a deep stack. Yes, yes. When they turn, it looks like they're closer if I put my hands behind the
1:28:25
other one. Sure. But if the the Air Force flies a shallow stack, which is a little more difficult
1:28:33
sometimes, especially for number four, it's a little it's a little tougher because you're
1:28:37
closer to the jet wash. I'm not going to say that the Thunderbirds are better because they fly at
1:28:41
harder formation. I'm going to say they fly, each fly just a little bit different kind of formation.
1:28:46
When they gave me the stick one day at practice, he said, I want you to feel the pressure on the
1:28:50
stick so you can ride about it good. So I, it was all six airplanes in the Delta, they did some.
1:28:57
Maneuvers. He said, hey, you're pretty good. I said, well, yeah, I did it for 20 years. I hope
1:29:00
I can still do it, but I was really nervous. And he said, Why are you, why are you flying up so high?
1:29:07
He said, because that's where you're supposed to fly in formation. He said, No, no, we fly,
1:29:11
we fly down here. So when you, when you turn, it looks like a step down.
1:29:15
So from the, from the, from the field of view of the, of the spectator, it looks perfect.
1:29:20
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I think the Thunderbirds fly some more precise and difficult
1:29:27
things that you don't appreciate as as a spectator the blues have more showmanship and they know how,
1:29:33
to impress the crowd more i think uh he uh let me ask you this um being in being in uh around
1:29:42
both of those teams uh both of those guys i know i know from personal experience that they're,
1:29:49
quality individuals and you probably can't if you could change his shirt on on the individual you
1:29:56
probably wouldn't know what service they were in. Is there a, actually I know the
1:30:03
answer this question, so I'm going to rephrase it.
1:30:06
If you were to throw a dart in a room and hit a Blue Angel or a Thunderbird guy,
1:30:16
who would be closer to the bar?
1:30:21
You know, I didn't see a lot of that on either team. I thought I'd see a little more partying and reception stuff.
1:30:30
No, they're in the bed early. That's good. They're at the white room at 0800.
1:30:36
I'm not saying I was disappointed. I was impressed that they were so dedicated and serious about their job.
1:30:43
And when I saw what the job entailed and rode along with them, I go, holy mother of God,
1:30:48
this is not fun flying at all. It's hurting my mind. Lawman related that to us.
1:30:52
He said, you know, that was his first day on the team.
1:30:55
Dino asked him, what's the best part or the worst part of being a Blue Angel?
1:30:59
And he's like, you know, you're traveling a lot. He couldn't come up with the answer.
1:31:02
He goes, no, it's the flying. You are going to regret coming to work to fly this airplane.
1:31:07
It is so hard. And I have such respect for those guys. I mean, I taught this stuff for years. I was good at it.
1:31:14
But man. You
1:31:16
That is very stressful. That is the ultimate, very stressful. It's highly stressful. It was
1:31:21
stressful sitting along watching it. I cannot imagine it must have been just as exhausting,
1:31:27
you know, writing without having to be the one holding the jet in position.
1:31:31
I was changing roles at 36, everything. But I tell people in my talks, I am the luckiest guy
1:31:37
you will ever see at a podium because not only I got to fly the world's fastest jet.
1:31:42
That to fly with both teams, something no one else has ever gotten to do that.
1:31:46
No, they will never do that again.
1:31:48
No, that's not that opportunity to see it and get to smell it and breathe it and touch it and do books about it.
1:31:56
I'm so lucky that I got to do all those things as a guy that was told your flying days are over.
1:32:03
And even more so truly unique and very.
1:32:08
So can I you're a very humble man. You're a very humble aviator.
1:32:13
I have to admit, I'm a fortunate guy.
1:32:15
And before I ask you this question, I just want to say I'm very humble and very honored to talk to you and hear all your stories.
1:32:26
And I really, truly feel like I am in the presence of royalty.
1:32:32
Sky God. Aviation royalty. Sky God, there we go. That might be a title, Sky God. No, we won't do that to you.
1:32:41
I'm going to ask you a question, and if you don't want to answer it, it's okay.
1:32:46
But can you tell our listeners what Air Force accommodation or medals that you were awarded
1:32:54
throughout your career?
1:32:56
Oh, I don't even remember half of it. I think the meritorious service was probably one of the higher ones, a bunch of air medals.
1:33:07
Uh, there was a couple other air metals. Hold on a second. Let's talk about that.
1:33:12
A bunch of air metals. Listen, ladies and gentlemen, you don't get air metals just for being a pilot
1:33:17
for flying airplanes.
1:33:18
You don't get air metals for that. Well, I looked at my mistress the other day because I actually have an opportunity
1:33:24
to do something really special at the end of this year. And I can tell you, but it's just too amazing.
1:33:29
Uh, mean, that's just mean to say that punchy. What a tease.
1:33:37
And I may have to wear my vest dress, which I haven't worn in 30 years.
1:33:42
So I'm going to get a new one.
1:33:43
Obviously, I won't fit in. You'll probably fit right into that next time.
1:33:47
I was looking at all the medals and things.
1:33:51
Some I just don't even recognize. But I know that they were like meritorious service or joint service accommodations, things like that.
1:34:01
We did some oddball stuff.
1:34:03
So, no, I didn't do any distinguished flying cross or Medal of Honors or any of this.
1:34:11
I've tried to tell people I'm not a hero.
1:34:13
No, but you have a very distinguished career, sir. Very distinguished.
1:34:17
You could call it many things.
1:34:18
I would say a very fortunate, lucky and blessed career to get to do all the things.
1:34:24
I didn't fly for 20 years and then go fly with the teams and survive the 810.
1:34:29
And we're killing guys every week. And just to survive the hospital.
1:34:34
So that's lucky to be, that's not distinguished.
1:34:38
I had perseverance. I kept calling the blues 400 times till they finally relented.
1:34:44
And they're glad they did. They loved the book.
1:34:46
And they said, it's really, we did something good for us.
1:34:49
And guess what? There hasn't been a good book on the blues since then.
1:34:54
They never had a good book. or the Thunderbirds.
1:34:57
I really yeah so I consider I never think a great or distinguished or heroic or infamous I think,
1:35:06
really blessed and fortunate that my distinctly special marine personality got me through.
1:35:13
Uh carried me through all of the things that I've gotten to do and I proved my theory that
1:35:19
You can you can do more than you think you can do.
1:35:22
And I tell people you can go weeks without food, days without water, even a few minutes without oxygen.
1:35:30
But the minute second you lose hope, you're done.
1:35:34
So you just don't get it. And that's my motto. It's it's very profound.
1:35:39
And it's true. It's and I've lived it. And I don't even know how I did all the things we're talking about here today.
1:35:45
That's why I find it even hard to.
1:35:47
I do. I know exactly how you did it, because that was your ordained.
1:35:52
It was. It was. I was the Marine kid that was going to be able to. Yes, sir.
1:35:57
That's how I remember my my high school coach. I had a red cap with an M on it because my dad got it for me at the base.
1:36:05
And we were we were practicing, got to wear our own caps.
1:36:08
And he said, yeah, I got that Marine kid at third base. It's kind of salty.
1:36:12
It's kind of salty. The Marine kid, you know, And I go, what do you mean by that? I'm a nice guy.
1:36:19
I didn't get into a lot of fights or trouble. I was on the Dean's list.
1:36:22
I was an honor student. I liked school. I wasn't a, but I would say things sometimes
1:36:28
that they didn't want to hear.
1:36:30
And I had a commander once tell me, he says, you're my best instructor.
1:36:34
I'll leave you in the cockpit till the day you retire. But I will not, I will never promote you
1:36:39
because you are a loose cannon.
1:36:41
And I thought, that's a compliment. I've heard that before, repeat. That's OK.
1:36:50
I was lucky to get through a career without being court-martialed half the time
1:36:54
with the things I said or did.
1:36:56
But my dad taught me some great valuable lessons and everything.
1:37:01
And he was a great man.
1:37:04
And my mom was right when she said, you weren't you didn't pull the short straw.
1:37:08
And it wasn't unlucky. You were chosen.
1:37:10
You chose him for this mission because you were the guy that would survive it
1:37:14
and then turn it into something positive. And I said, wow, OK, I hope I can see that someday.
1:37:20
Right now, you do. But yeah, still, that's lucky. I got to tell you, I have.
1:37:28
I mean, I'm just sitting here. I am kind of out of questions.
1:37:31
I feel like I'm unprepared.
1:37:34
Yeah, so let me take it then, Fig, because I'd like to chat about, I know on Facebook
1:37:40
it's Brian Schull Photography. That's Brian, B-R-I-A-N, Schull, S-H-U-L, Photography.
1:37:48
Find that page and you will see some of the most stunning nature photos.
1:37:51
That's been my most fun thing now is doing my bird photography and people say,
1:37:56
how did you get into doing bird photography?
1:37:59
I used to fly this airplane that had a long range camera. You know, birds are like airplanes to me and they're just way more interesting and fascinating
1:38:07
and have a personality.
1:38:08
And once you understand flight and you appreciate flight, when you watch birds, you just don't
1:38:12
ever watch them the same anymore. Oh, that's right.
1:38:15
They do everything that you wish you could do in an airplane.
1:38:21
I wish I was a Harrier. When I watch them fly the field out there, they kill with elegance.
1:38:27
I mean, they're just impressive flyers. Yeah, when you see birds of prey in action, it's truly, if you're an aviator, you're in
1:38:38
awe at their skill.
1:38:41
You see... I've seen Harriers stop on a dime, do a hammerhead stall, and roll down and kick that mouse with
1:38:46
it, all within just a heartbeat. I know.
1:38:49
You go, how'd you do that? Well, they pulled one wing in and left one out.
1:38:54
I'll tell you the other bird that's interesting, and I didn't see any there, but I don't think
1:39:00
you're in the area where you can.
1:39:02
One of the more fascinating aviators to me is the pelican, to watch those guys use ground
1:39:06
effect. Oh no, I've got tons of pelicans. Yeah, okay. I hadn't seen those.
1:39:10
Pelican is the very first bird I started with that I had no intention of being a bird photographer.
1:39:14
And I bought this new lens that I was going to shoot air shows with.
1:39:18
And I was visiting my parents in St. Pete where they lived.
1:39:21
And what's in St. Pete is the pelican. Yeah. So I needed something to practice with my new lens.
1:39:27
And I went down to the pier and I thought, these dumpy, stupid looking birds are slowing up.
1:39:32
I'll just who would these birds are just ridiculous. So I started shooting them to practice focusing on.
1:39:38
I fell in love with. They were such good flyers and such incredible.
1:39:42
Oh, my gosh. From right down the pier. Right.
1:39:46
To watch them dip their wingtips in the water as they fly and then to dive in and get fish.
1:39:50
Oh, I met a pelican beak to beak one day on the I'm meeting up with the railing of the pier.
1:39:57
I thought I hit on shot. This is good. This is good.
1:40:02
And I thought he'll he'll move at the last minute. He'll turn away.
1:40:04
No, no. That's his peer.
1:40:06
He didn't turn away in his head. Just missed smacking me in the nose in his wing.
1:40:12
Just give me a wet wipe right across the was that that was so cool there.
1:40:19
No, he's not going to move for you, dummy. I'm not moving for you, prowl, you amateur.
1:40:23
I'm a professional here. I got into my hawks and harriers and eagles and stuff,
1:40:29
but now I'm doing series on the smaller birds, which are fascinating. It just...
1:40:35
Great thing to do in your retired life, you can do photography.
1:40:39
That's awesome, Punchy.
1:40:40
I like being out in nature. Yeah. It is great stuff.
1:40:44
As the introvert that I am, I like being away from the crowds.
1:40:48
Right. I just want to tell you how, what a great pleasure it was to listen to your stories.
1:40:57
I wanted to make some contribution to your show that was positive.
1:41:02
Oh, are you kidding me?
1:41:03
It's it's this is right up there. This is awesome. This is one of the well, it's one of the grades
1:41:08
It's a first we've never had an sr-71 pilot on and we probably because there's only 89 left to go
1:41:15
We probably won't get one.
1:41:18
Well, unless you unless you can give us a reference we probably won't get one and,
1:41:24
And thank you for your service. Thank you for your service in Vietnam. And thank you for thank you for service to our country,
1:41:31
All voluntary, I didn't want anyone taking my seat out of one of the seats.
1:41:35
There you go. Yeah. And, you know, quite frankly, not being an Air Force Academy or an RTC guy, getting a pilot slot in the Air Force is kind of a big deal.
1:41:45
You know, I'll tell you one of the great quotes. I remember so many great quotes in my career.
1:41:50
And one was when I went to the recruiter right after college, and I said, okay, you can have me now.
1:41:55
You've been sending me all these stupid drafting notices, and I kept telling you I was going to join and everything.
1:42:00
And everything. So here I am, I'm going to go to pilot training. And he says, how many hours flying do you have? I said, none. He says, did you have ROTC? I said, no, I didn't even do ROTC. He said, do you have a degree in aerospace? I said, no, I'm a history major. I got a degree in anthropology.
1:42:16
Let's hear it for history majors. He looked at me and he said, what makes you think we're going to waste all our money training you how to fly?
1:42:26
And I looked at him, I said, because I want it more than the other guys. And I actually said that. Right on.
1:42:31
And he just looked at me like, you know, just same thing the doctor said to me in the hospital. He says, I like your attitude.
1:42:37
Yeah, I like your attitude. He says, I'm going to let you go. You might not make it, but you stand for it.
1:42:42
I like your attitude. I like your attitude.
1:42:44
That's how my whole life was. And I talk a lot about attitude in my talks today because,
1:42:49
I'm living proof that it's a bigger factor in people's well-being than we may think sometimes.
1:42:58
No, I think you're spot on on that. I really do.
1:43:02
You guys started your radio show. You didn't start with the idea that, well, this will probably fail.
1:43:08
You said this could sound good. We're going to make this work. We got to get the great aviation raconteurs on tape,
1:43:14
get their stories down.
1:43:15
I was just so impressed today by how well all your equipment worked at the start of the show.
1:43:18
Yeah, right. Ouch. I'll take that.
1:43:22
You know, the funny thing is, is it was about a year ago today. Well, it was in April. It
1:43:27
was the end of April that, uh, Repeat and I were at a Harrier anniversary, 50, 50th
1:43:34
Harrier anniversary. And, uh, yeah, 50 years of the Harrier and the Marine Corps. And,
1:43:39
uh, we, we, we started talking and I, I came to the, uh, I came to the Harrier reunion
1:43:46
with a digital recorder because I wanted to record some stories, because I thought I wanted.
1:43:51
To make a podcast, not knowing how I was going to do it. But Repeat is the guy. And he said,
1:44:00
Hey, so we started talking and they say, you know, here we are, we're so we're a year later,
1:44:06
a year later, four shows in and maybe 55. I lost track of the number.
1:44:10
Life is what you make it. It's really life is what you make it. Once you get your hand
1:44:15
I'm a stick and throttles and all that.
1:44:16
But you know, you know, Pug, Punchy, it's it's I just appreciate you coming on and talking
1:44:24
to us because you do this all the time.
1:44:26
And you probably I hope you don't feel like you're you're you're you're you're talking to a broken record.
1:44:34
I just really, really I just want to express the fact that how much I we both appreciate
1:44:40
you sharing your stories.
1:44:42
That's exactly right. If I don't share the story in a positive way,
1:44:46
then all that I went through didn't have any real value.
1:44:49
It's like, it's my way of making some value, all that stuff.
1:44:55
That at the time, you just thought, ah, this is like the worst thing that could happen. Right.
1:45:01
It's not. Well, that's, that's very eloquently said. Very. Perfect.
1:45:06
Eloquently said. And I appreciate the opportunity. Yeah. Well, let me step in then. And again, thank you for your service to your country,
1:45:13
to your fellow airmen.
1:45:14
And think of a greater country to serve.
1:45:16
Right. Amen. No matter what the news tells us. Amen. No, there's a, find a better one. There isn't one. And hasn't been.
1:45:24
Thank you to you, sir. Thank you, Fig. This is awesome. And the opportunity to do this
1:45:27
has been a wonderful blessing. Thank you to Dave Hamilton over at the Mac Geek Gab who
1:45:32
helped us put this all together. Thanks to our sponsor Robbins Bird Brain Designs to
1:45:37
help you get custom gifts out. Thoughtful custom gifts. Would you like a coaster with,
1:45:41
your squadron logo and your call sign with your fraternity or sorority logo on it? Anything.
1:45:47
That you need a custom gift for, Robbins Bird Brain Designs will etch that for you and make it right.
1:45:53
A special thank you this week. We just started our Patreon page where you can go and help support this show financially.
1:46:00
This show doesn't come free to us to put out to you.
1:46:03
It's a labor and a cost of love, but we're now beginning to the point where we're needing
1:46:07
to ask for a little help.
1:46:08
We started the Patreon page and thank you to our first two patrons, Chase Cole and Earl McCoy.
1:46:15
Thank you very much, gentlemen. We appreciate your pledge to help support this show.
1:46:21
If you want to ask us any questions, you can reach out to fig at sothereiwas.us or me,
1:46:26
repeat at sothereiwas.us.
1:46:29
We're planning a 75th show about getting into aviation, learning to fly.
1:46:32
Whether you're 15 or 55, get out to the airport and do it.
1:46:37
If you have questions about how to do that, how it's going to work, we ask that you reach
1:46:41
out to Styx at sothereiwas.us.
1:46:44
Styx is going to help us put that show together and he's helping us with a bunch of admin
1:46:48
support on things like our glossary page.
1:46:50
You heard terms here tonight that you don't know what they are, shoot us a note and we'll,
1:46:55
get that term defined and up on the glossary page for you.
1:46:58
And with all that being said, all I can tell you is till next week, stay safe and check Take six.
1:47:04
Ross in the pond and you could see that I wasn't.
1:47:06
Music.