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Fringey Mini: I brain therefore I am · Journey to the Fringe

• 0:00
  Okay, Chelsea, I am going to, because I don't
• 0:03
  want to do the same thing two weeks in a row.
• 0:05
  Okay. I'm going to give you a vague idea or a
• 0:08
  general topic. Oh, a choice. Yes. So we can talk
• 0:14
  about ancient history. We can talk about genetics.
• 0:20
  We can talk about a, what is this? You know,
• 0:24
  I'm just getting rid of this one. It looks too
• 0:26
  complicated. We can talk about the Moonies, which
• 0:29
  we can't because we've done that one. Okay. We
• 0:33
  can talk about aliens. Ah, this is a test for
• 0:37
  us. Or we can talk about space junk. Genetics.
• 0:41
  Okay. This one is from Live Live Science. We
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  will never. We defy learning what the actual
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  correct way to say it. Yeah. Great source. No
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  idea how to say it. Refuse to learn. How do you
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  find out? Who's to say? Anyhow, written on September
• 1:03
  18th, 2025 by Kamal Nahas. Article title, tiny
• 1:08
  brains grown in lab could become conscious and
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  feel pain. And we are not ready. No, I'm not
• 1:15
  ready for this episode even. Uh -oh. So, scientists
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  are getting closer to growing human brains in
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  labs. And it's spurring an ethical debate over
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  the welfare of these lab -reared tissues. The
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  debate surrounds brain organoids, which are sometimes
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  mistaken for sci -fi -inspired brains in boxes.
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  I think we're going to learn. However, they appear
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  to be a small assembly of brain tissues, because
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  that's what they say. grown from stem cells are
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  too simple to function like a real human brain.
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  As such, scientists have assumed brain organoids
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  lack consciousness, which has led to lax research
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  regulations. Some scientists, however, take a
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  different view. Yeah. Quote, we feel that in
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  the fear of hype and science fiction inspired
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  exaggeration, the pendulum has swung too far
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  in the opposite direction. End quote. Christopher
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  Wood, a bioethics researcher at Zhejiang University
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  in China, told Live Science in an email. In a
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  prospective piece published September 12th in
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  the journal Patterns, Wood and his colleagues
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  argued that technological advances may soon lead
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  to the creation of conscious organoids. The authors
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  say regulations regarding the use of organoids
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  should be reviewed. It would be unethical for
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  a conscious organoid to experience its own thoughts
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  and interests or to feel pain, said Boyd Lomax,
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  a neuroscientist at Johns Hopkins University.
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  But reigning in consciousness may not be straightforward.
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  The stem cells used to make organoids grow side
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  by side and lack complex organization when they're
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  cultured on a 2D surface like a dish. But when
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  they're grown in a solid gel or a spinning bioreactor
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  that keeps the cells aloft, they adopt 3D anatomical
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  networks that resemble what's seen in an embryonic
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  brain. Although they develop 3D features, brain
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  organoids are too simple to be conscious some
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  neuroscientists argue consciousness in a brain
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  arises when different regions of the organ communicate
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  but organoids resemble only a single part of
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  the brain and none of these lab -grown mini brains
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  are larger than 0 .16 inches or four millimeters
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  in diameter suggesting important faculties of
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  consciousness are missing. People often think
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  of consciousness in humans or animals as a state
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  of being aware of oneself. However, quote, we
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  think of consciousness in organoids as a basic
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  level of sensation, the capacity to feel pain
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  and pleasure, end quote, said Andrea Lavazza,
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  a moral philosopher and neuroethicist at Pegaso
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  University in Italy. Most neuroscientists define
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  consciousness as self -awareness or the ability
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  to feel or experience something. Alison Muotri,
• 3:58
  a neuroscientist at the University of California,
• 4:00
  San Diego, told Live Science in an email. But
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  there is no universal agreed -upon definition,
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  she said. He said. Wow. Alison is a he. Sorry,
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  plot twist in that one. Or typo. Who knows? Some
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  definitions of consciousness focus on the brain's
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  ability to process and respond to its environment
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  through senses like sight and hearing. Brain
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  organoids are cultured outside of a body and
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  cannot receive such signals, Lavazza noted. But
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  in the future, more advanced organoids could
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  still theoretically experience pain. In humans,
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  membranes that envelop the brain, called meninges,
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  which I think is where we take meningitis from,
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  contains neurons that can send pain signals to
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  the organs. the worry is that the same could
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  be possible in more sophisticated organoids on
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  the flip side Boyd argued that, quote, if an
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  organoid has the internal neural architecture
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  necessary for representing pain, then no external
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  signal would be required, end quote. So there
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  need not be a pain signal from a neuron for pain
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  to occur. This is how phantom pain arises in
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  people who have lost limbs. That makes a lot
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  of sense. Wood noted, however, that it's unclear
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  whether an organoid could experience something
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  tantamount to phantom pain, as this might depend
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  on having a memory of the lost limb. So in words,
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  it's complicated. wow this actually goes on for
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  quite some time so i'm going to link the article
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  to yeah so you can read more but i think that
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  gives enough i have so many thoughts on this
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  this is such an interesting philosophical article
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  i think number one my first comment i think is
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  just something that while you were talking i
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  think gave me pause, which was it. Was it my
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  having to reread things? Yes. It was that Allison
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  was a heap. No, it was that. What was it that
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  you said that just merely by having a brain and
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  being able to feel pleasure and pain. gives you
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  a what was it a sense of self a sense of consciousness
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  consciousness now to me there are living things
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  that could experience pain that i don't think
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  that people would necessarily think would have
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  a consciousness being parts of like the the reefs
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  and um stuff like that they still experience
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  consciousness they just they exist they wouldn't
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  have a sense of self yes But that doesn't mean
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  they aren't conscious, yes. Exactly. And which
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  also would bring up the fact of people who argue,
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  and this was something as a part of a philosophy
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  class that I took, at which point would you consider,
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  and it was not just a regular philosophy class.
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  it was i can't remember what exactly it was the
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  argument was abortion right or wrong and a part
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  of the and i think it's equally important in
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  what we're talking about right now at what point
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  do you feel a fetus would gain consciousness
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  would gain a soul and what makes that right or
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  wrong at what point and what the argument would
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  be at what point do you think this thing gets
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  a soul and what is the meaning of a soul behind
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  something like that. And I think it's a very
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  relevant argument towards what we're talking
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  about right now. I weirdly got that theme from
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  this too. And it's almost like that ethically
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  has to be talked about at the same time. Yes.
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  But I didn't want to talk about it weirdly enough.
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  Everybody knows the soul happens at the quickening.
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  The bad religion covered it well in their song,
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  The Quickening. Just go listen to that and you'll
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  understand. But as weird as it seems, I think
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  it's pulling similar ties to it. Yeah. With something
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  that we're creating that isn't human, but could
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  potentially be. How do you measure that? One
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  thing that bothered me that's left out from that
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  article, why are they growing these? Yes. Which
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  gave me, and that was another point of mine,
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  why are they growing things and what the hell
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  are they doing with them? I mean, my theory,
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  Chelsea, just throwing it out there, it turns
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  out reincarnation is the correct religious view
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  and they're just creating hell because these
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  things they're clearly ethically arguing can
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  only feel pain. You know what? There's something
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  that leaves me very disturbed about the article
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  as well, which is my third point. Which maybe
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  gets covered in the last third of the article,
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  which we could have read at this point. There's
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  so many points I want to make. This is only the
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  third. This is a big article. What the fuck are
• 8:55
  they doing? There's so many implications. There's
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  so many implications. Too many to have for a
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  minute. And I didn't know they were growing these.
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  Like I've always kind of considered like human
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  brains kind of off limits for rowing in a vat.
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  No, there's nothing off limits for rowing in
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  a vat these days. And I think before it goes
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  too far. Not with the deregulation that we're
• 9:19
  living through these days. That's true. And what
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  with the souls, the administration probably needs
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  to collect in order to distract from the Epstein
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  files. No. maybe the Epstein files are just the
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  friends we made along the way. And also these
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  little things in bats, because they're clearly
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  not 18. I think there's too much to this to comprehend.
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  And that's probably where the mini should end.
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  Yeah. And I mean, I think therefore I am, I almost
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  feel like this is exactly what he was talking
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  about with the brain. Probably. I would say yes.
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  I don't know. You guys got 48 hours to think
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  about it. I don't want to think about it anymore.
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  Maybe you don't, but you've got it for 48 hours.
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  Anyhow, bye. Bye.