Latest / Financial Planner Life Podcast / Let’s Talk About Menopause and Mental Health

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Let’s Talk About Menopause and Mental Health · Financial Planner Life Podcast

0:00
SPEAKER_00: Hello, Financial Planner Life.
0:03
SPEAKER_00: It's me, it's Charlie.
0:04
SPEAKER_00: I am back here again.
0:06
SPEAKER_00: It feels phenomenal.
0:08
SPEAKER_00: I love coming on here and talking to anyone.
0:13
SPEAKER_00: Anyone who has a story worth sharing.
0:17
SPEAKER_00: And typically I will talk about the environment.
0:22
SPEAKER_00: I will talk about what people in financial planning or the wider wealth management profession are doing for the environment.
0:29
SPEAKER_00: And sustainability is always at the core of this.
0:33
SPEAKER_00: Now, as I've gone on my own personal journey, um, I've been, you know, in my own professional life, I am diving deep, deep, deep into B Corp.
0:43
SPEAKER_00: Um and you look at not just the planet, but you look at people.
0:48
SPEAKER_00: And there is sustainability of people and things that people experience.
0:54
SPEAKER_00: We've all been in a situation where something is unsustainable for us.
0:59
SPEAKER_00: We can't possibly function like this in a long-term capacity because it just won't work.
1:04
SPEAKER_00: Something's got to give.
1:06
SPEAKER_00: And this conversation that I have today, because I'm recording this intro after I've recorded the episode, I am speaking with a fantastic power planner.
1:16
SPEAKER_00: And they are remote, they have been in the profession uh for 30 years, and they share their experience of not only mental health journeys that they have been on, but also what they've seen change in the profession.
1:29
SPEAKER_00: I just want to give awareness for people listening, because you never know where someone is tuning in from or how you might be feeling today.
1:38
SPEAKER_00: A bit of a trigger warning, we do talk about suicide.
1:41
SPEAKER_00: So I appreciate if that's not the energy that you're looking for today from Financial Planner Life, um, potentially not the episode for you.
1:50
SPEAKER_00: However, we also talk about menopause.
1:54
SPEAKER_00: And after I'd recorded this episode, I went home and I felt really good.
1:59
SPEAKER_00: And then I started to get a bit nervous.
2:02
SPEAKER_00: And I thought, oh my gosh, I was talking so brazenly about periods and menopause and perimenopause.
2:10
SPEAKER_00: What if there's someone out out there listening who doesn't want to listen to that?
2:14
SPEAKER_00: What if there's an advisor, a male advisor who goes, oh, why are they talking about periods and perimenopause?
2:21
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to hear about this.
2:23
SPEAKER_00: And then I had to really check myself because not only was I bringing a limiting belief into the equation, because I was assuming somebody else would bring their limiting belief into the equation.
2:37
SPEAKER_00: I then started getting this really negative cycle in my head around the conversation.
2:42
SPEAKER_00: But that to me is a sign that this conversation needs to be had, and it definitely needs to be had in a professional sphere.
2:50
SPEAKER_00: I have grown up never really seeing this talked about in a working environment.
2:57
SPEAKER_00: And I'm very happy to be able to champion that today because I guarantee every person listening at some point in their life will be affected by menopause, men and women alike.
3:10
SPEAKER_00: So wherever you are, wherever you're tuning in from today, whether you are on your morning commute, maybe you're on your lunch break or sat on the sofa with a glass of wine.
3:20
SPEAKER_00: I hope you enjoy.
3:22
SPEAKER_00: Sit back, relax, and let's get it started.
3:34
SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to Financial Planner Life.
3:37
SPEAKER_00: Today I have got Gillian sat with me, and I'm so excited.
3:41
SPEAKER_00: This is my first episode of 2023.
3:44
SPEAKER_00: And traditionally, Gillian, I talk to people about what they do with the environment or sustainability.
3:50
SPEAKER_00: But the more I talk to people in the profession, the more I realize that there's so many more stories that need to be shared.
3:57
SPEAKER_00: And in terms of thinking about sustainability, it covers so much more than the environment in a business.
4:03
SPEAKER_00: You've got to be sustainable with how you look after your employees, how you develop your employees.
4:08
SPEAKER_00: And that's led me into thinking about talking to people like yourself about their experience within financial planning, particularly when it comes to mental health.
4:16
SPEAKER_00: Um, so welcome today, Jillian.
4:18
SPEAKER_00: How are you?
4:19
SPEAKER_00: I'm good.
4:20
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me.
4:21
SPEAKER_00: You're welcome, welcome.
4:22
SPEAKER_00: I'm sure the listeners will definitely be able to identify with parts of your story.
4:26
SPEAKER_00: I know when we've spoken before, I've been sat there like I know other people, and particularly women, have experienced similar situations to yourself.
4:34
SPEAKER_00: So I think it's always good to introduce to the listeners who we're speaking with today.
4:39
SPEAKER_00: So take it away, Gillian, and share with us a little bit about how you got into financial planning.
4:46
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so I was very, very young, uh, straight out of school, to be honest, and I applied for two jobs.
4:51
SPEAKER_01: I applied for a job at a solicitor's and a job at Scottish Equitable as a junior.
4:57
SPEAKER_01: And I did get offered them both.
4:59
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I realized that the Scottish Equitable route for me probably had more career paths than a legal secretary.
5:07
SPEAKER_01: Um, so I started, I was like two weeks off, 17 years old, and I started at Scottish Equitable, which is now AGON, I'm sure you know, which is uh in 1990 that was.
5:18
SPEAKER_01: So I've been in financial services since 1990.
5:23
SPEAKER_01: I've been an admin, I've been a group personal pensions administrator.
5:27
SPEAKER_01: I started paraplanning quite early on before paraplanning was really a thing, sort of 1994-95.
5:35
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then I went on to advise for a little while, did that for a while, uh, found that quite hard being a single parent, had a break, went to college, studied acting, got a degree in performing arts, and came back to the profession again as a paraplanner.
5:51
SPEAKER_01: And I've been back ever since doing that.
5:54
SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's a good number of years as a paraplanner.
5:57
SPEAKER_00: And I love how you noticed that as well.
5:59
SPEAKER_00: There is definitely there was a time where the paraplanning was not really termed paraplanning, and then all of a sudden it was paraplanning.
6:05
SPEAKER_00: When was it you noticed that shift?
6:08
SPEAKER_01: My boss came up from a London meeting and said, Oh, he says down there, you know, he says they're calling them paraplanners, like paralegal, like paramedics in London.
6:20
SPEAKER_01: And I said, Oh, right, it says that's what I'm gonna call you.
6:23
SPEAKER_01: Aww.
6:25
unknown: That there, yeah.
6:27
SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, so that's that's what I'm gonna call you.
6:29
SPEAKER_01: And I said, Oh, right, okay.
6:30
SPEAKER_01: And it was another five years before it actually became circulating in the in the sort of as a job title.
6:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
6:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
6:40
SPEAKER_00: I still get it when um I see it on LinkedIn sometimes, and people say, you know, when you've got drop-down menus of what job you are, when power planners are on there, paraplanners are like, yeah!
6:50
SPEAKER_01: We do, we celebrate, we celebrate very much, very much.
6:53
SPEAKER_01: There was a team of paraplanners once on the TV quiz show, Eggheads.
6:57
SPEAKER_01: And the paraplanners are always like, yes, they're power planners.
7:02
SPEAKER_00: Finally.
7:03
SPEAKER_00: Um, so crucial to the profession as well.
7:06
SPEAKER_00: So, so crucial.
7:07
SPEAKER_00: And I guess for yourself at this point as well, being a power planner, what does that how does that align with your values in terms of your values as an individual and the service that power planning brings?
7:19
SPEAKER_00: Because I think it's at as a in my day job as a recruiter, I talk to people a lot about their values.
7:24
SPEAKER_00: It's very value-driven.
7:25
SPEAKER_00: And I find to be a power planner for that number of years, it's got to align deeply within you somewhere to just continuously want to keep doing it.
7:33
SPEAKER_01: I find it quite a creative uh profession, and I find it quite an intuitive profession because every client is different, as you know, every situation is different.
7:44
SPEAKER_01: And at the moment, I'm an outsourced power planner, so I'm dealing with many different advisors, many different templates, and how they want it doing and which calculations they want in there.
7:54
SPEAKER_01: And I find it quite challenging, so I think that's why I keep doing it.
7:58
SPEAKER_01: And also I like to sleep at night.
8:01
SPEAKER_01: So I like that the ultimate responsibility of the advice is the advisors and not mine.
8:07
SPEAKER_00: It's not brain surgery at the end of the day.
8:09
SPEAKER_00: I say that to myself, not to power planners, by the way.
8:12
SPEAKER_00: That as a recruiter, I always say it's not brain surgery, it's fine.
8:15
SPEAKER_00: Like I again, I like to sleep, I like to have that time where I can just switch off.
8:19
SPEAKER_00: I take my hats off to people who are the brain surgeons.
8:22
SPEAKER_00: As someone who's been in the profession since 1990, then you've probably seen a lot of changes come through.
8:28
SPEAKER_00: What have been the most notable for you?
8:32
SPEAKER_01: Uh most notable changes.
8:35
SPEAKER_01: I would say the expansion of the paraplanning profession, career.
8:42
SPEAKER_01: Um, the requirement now for paraplanners, a lot of companies are wanting us to be level four, so they're at least as qualified as the advisors giving the advice.
8:52
SPEAKER_01: That's a big change.
8:53
SPEAKER_01: Um, it wasn't, it was more your experience um in the past, and now they're definitely looking for the qualifications to have under your belt to go into the into the profession, which I think is a really good idea.
9:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely.
9:07
SPEAKER_01: I I was sort of thrown in at the deep end and learnt on the job kind of thing, which is also valuable.
9:13
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think the technical side of it really helps to apply the knowledge to the client.
9:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely.
9:20
SPEAKER_00: I've noticed it myself that some of the larger corporate firms that I work with are very specific.
9:26
SPEAKER_00: They're like, nope, you need to have your level four.
9:28
SPEAKER_00: But I think there is flexibility with people like yourself who have grown through the profession.
9:34
SPEAKER_00: You're not going to take someone who's got 20 years powerplanning experience and doesn't have their level four if you need a good quality power planner.
9:41
SPEAKER_01: That has been the main change.
9:42
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think the main thing I noticed for me regarding work-life balance was when I was an advisor, when I had a small child, when I was a single parent, um, which is I think when I came back from a period out of financial services, that value then was very important to have the work-life balance.
10:03
SPEAKER_01: It must even more so when I came back from doing the uh performing arts.
10:07
SPEAKER_01: I decided I'd go back to financial services because it's what I know, but I must have this work-life balance as well because I'd learnt that from previous.
10:16
SPEAKER_00: A non-negotiable balance.
10:18
SPEAKER_01: No, it's non-negotiable.
10:20
SPEAKER_00: So, what are your non-negotiables then?
10:22
SPEAKER_00: A work-life balance.
10:23
SPEAKER_00: What else is in terms of looking for a new opportunity?
10:26
SPEAKER_00: What has to be met in your expectations?
10:30
SPEAKER_01: Oh, at the moment, it's the ability to work remotely, the ability to work flexibly in terms of yes, I know I have a set amount of hours to do in a day, but I don't have to just traditionally fill those hours nine to five.
10:46
SPEAKER_01: If I want to start at half past seven and finish at half past two, for example, I can.
10:51
SPEAKER_01: Um, which allows me to structure my day around things that I might need to do for myself.
10:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, particularly if you've got children as well.
10:59
SPEAKER_00: You know, I I was raised by a single mum.
11:02
SPEAKER_00: Shout out to all the single mums out there.
11:04
SPEAKER_00: I honestly, it it makes you out of tougher material for going through something like that.
11:10
SPEAKER_00: And I don't understand the hours in the day that my mum would somehow find.
11:14
SPEAKER_00: I always tell this story, which um people found it really strange.
11:18
SPEAKER_00: I was like, Do you never have ready salted crisps with your roast dinner?
11:21
SPEAKER_00: And they were like, No.
11:22
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, Oh, is that just a single mum thing that she wouldn't put potatoes on and she'd just give us ready salted crisps?
11:28
SPEAKER_00: Like, you get a bag each with your roast dinner.
11:30
SPEAKER_00: And it's little things like that where looking back on it, you just see that they're working the absolute hardest to give you everything that you have.
11:36
SPEAKER_00: And there's just so much gratitude.
11:38
SPEAKER_00: And I think work-life balance is so important because kids don't stay small forever, they do grow up, they do get bigger.
11:44
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I guess work-life balance, even in the last few years, has really changed.
11:50
SPEAKER_00: The pandemic really shifted things.
11:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for the best as well, I think.
11:56
SPEAKER_01: I think it made people re-evaluate where they were and what they were doing and what whether it was making them happy or not.
12:03
SPEAKER_01: And that that was a big thing for me as well.
12:04
SPEAKER_01: And that's why I've ended up where I am.
12:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
12:07
SPEAKER_00: And how do you find it working remotely?
12:11
SPEAKER_01: It can be lonely.
12:12
SPEAKER_01: Um, there are times when I just feel like I've got no friends, kind of thing.
12:20
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I do voice that to my employer, um, and they're putting in steps now to give me more contacts, maybe an IFA of my own, where I'm the lead paraplanner, so I have contact with other humans and things like that.
12:34
SPEAKER_01: So it's been quite tough the first six months while while I've been there nearly a year now, but the first six months were really tough.
12:42
SPEAKER_01: Um I felt like I was talking to nobody and it was quite very quiet and quite depressing, really.
12:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:50
SPEAKER_01: Wondering whether I'd made the right, the right choice.
12:53
SPEAKER_00: And we do, when things get tough, we do wonder like, is this the right choice?
12:57
SPEAKER_00: Am I going down the right path?
12:59
SPEAKER_00: But sometimes the uphill struggle is you're just putting your routine into place, you're figuring out your processes.
13:06
SPEAKER_00: And it's good that you've got that open dialogue with your employer because then they're looking at it like, oh, okay, we want people to work remotely, we want them to have the work-life uh balance, but how can we support them more by having, you know, I I can imagine working remotely because I would talk to walls.
13:21
SPEAKER_00: Um, I think even on a day at home when I'm working from home, it gets in the afternoon and I'm like, okay, I really need to go back into the office tomorrow and just like engage with everyone again.
13:30
SPEAKER_00: But for someone like yourself, where it's those non-negotiables mean that that remote job gives you everything that you need, having support in there is so important.
13:39
SPEAKER_01: It is because at the moment um I'm going through um a perimenopause, as they say.
13:46
SPEAKER_01: And sometimes I'm so tired.
13:48
SPEAKER_01: I just need to put everything down and just go and have a lie down for half an hour or an hour, and then I can come back.
13:55
SPEAKER_01: If I was in an office, I don't think they'd appreciate me doing that.
14:00
SPEAKER_00: Sorry guys, I'm just gonna go lay down over here.
14:02
SPEAKER_00: Yes, I'm just our paraplanner napping in the corner.
14:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
14:07
SPEAKER_01: Power paraplanning nap, that's what it is.
14:10
SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure how well that'd go down, but this job allows me to actually cope with what I'm going through as well.
14:18
SPEAKER_00: Definitely.
14:20
SPEAKER_00: I think that's one thing.
14:21
SPEAKER_00: And just for people listening out there, I'm sure that there are people who might not actually know specifics of what perimenopause is.
14:28
SPEAKER_00: So is that the stage just before menopause kicks in?
14:31
SPEAKER_01: Yes, it's the period just before it can be two to five years um before your periods actually stop.
14:39
SPEAKER_01: And you've not actually gone through the menopause until you've not had a period for a year.
14:44
SPEAKER_01: So the whole time before that is the perimenopause.
14:48
SPEAKER_01: So uh I'm having the hot flushes, I'm really tired, I'm irritable, grumpy sometimes, um, and I'm having a period every two weeks and I'm really tired.
14:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think with with periods, it almost feels like a taboo word to say it out loud sometimes when you're talking in a professional sphere.
15:08
SPEAKER_00: And that's something which I've definitely seen change.
15:11
SPEAKER_00: In fact, I remember when I joined Recruit UK and Sam interviewed me, he was like, We have blacks for working.
15:16
SPEAKER_00: If one day you wake up and you feel like crap and you've got your period, and I remember sitting there like, oh you just said the word period, like, okay, this is a company I want to work for.
15:27
SPEAKER_00: Because for me, I think maybe it's a generational thing, but I don't want something to be taboo if it's completely natural.
15:34
SPEAKER_00: You know, I remember I had this guy who I went to uni with every time he said the word period, he went, no, no, no, no, no, stop talking.
15:41
SPEAKER_00: And I thought, sorry, this is completely natural.
15:44
SPEAKER_00: It's something which shouldn't be, you know, disgusted.
15:47
SPEAKER_00: You shouldn't be disgusted of it being in a in a conversation.
15:50
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think having that conversation in the workplace is so important.
15:54
SPEAKER_00: And I think I mentioned to you before as well when Sam went to International Wednesday with St.
15:59
SPEAKER_00: James's Place and did a massive group talk with the advisors there for Talk Club, which is this charity that he's, I think he's a trustee of it now.
16:08
SPEAKER_00: It's to support uh mental health within men.
16:10
SPEAKER_00: Because as we know, I think the biggest killer of men under the age of 30 is suicide.
16:15
SPEAKER_00: And I'm sure the stats still continuously get scarier, even regardless of age.
16:19
SPEAKER_00: And they did all their breakout rooms, did their little talk clubs where they say, How are you feeling out of 10?
16:24
SPEAKER_00: And they figured out that most of the advisors, a key topic that they were struggling with was their wives going through menopause and being able to understand how to navigate that.
16:36
SPEAKER_00: And so I guess I ask you, as somebody who is in this situation right now, what advice would you have for somebody who is potentially having to help their partner or help someone they know, or maybe they've got a colleague who's going through menopause?
16:48
SPEAKER_00: What would your advice be for them to help them?
16:51
SPEAKER_01: My advice would be in the first place to go away and do a bit of reading, at least so they've got a basic background understanding of what it is and the sort of things and how it can affect um women and the hormones.
17:05
SPEAKER_01: And then I don't like the word safe space, but if if a female knows that she can talk openly about that, she's more likely to be open and speak about it.
17:18
SPEAKER_01: If somebody's gonna go, ah, period, don't say that word, then that's really them not understanding what what it is, in my view.
17:27
SPEAKER_01: Um, and we do need to talk about it.
17:30
SPEAKER_01: Um, so when you know that the the advisors are going home and that the wives are tired and irritable, they maybe have got an inkling why, and they can employ then a little bit of patience, a little bit of understanding, and just an ear to listen.
17:46
SPEAKER_01: Um I've I've found a lot throughout my life with with maybe more so with men that when when you talk to them about a problem, their instinct is to fix it.
17:56
SPEAKER_01: We talk about a problem because we just want to share and and feel better and know that we're not on our own.
18:02
SPEAKER_01: So I think maybe that's something they could take away from that is not try and fix her.
18:07
SPEAKER_01: She's not broken, she's just going through something, a life stage, and it won't be forever.
18:14
SPEAKER_01: You just need to be there.
18:16
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
18:17
SPEAKER_00: I love what you said there why men try to fix it and it's not broken, don't fix it.
18:23
SPEAKER_00: She's just needing someone to listen.
18:24
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's something which I actually use with my friends as well.
18:29
SPEAKER_00: Is sometimes I'll go into jump fix mode because I want to be there for them, I want to support them, and they'll be like, Charlie, you know, thank you so much for your advice, but I actually just kind of need you to listen.
18:39
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, okay.
18:40
SPEAKER_00: So sometimes I'll be like, Do you want me to listen or do you want my advice?
18:44
SPEAKER_00: And posing that question also makes that person feel validated that you they have the choice, do they need advice?
18:50
SPEAKER_00: And they might not even think they need advice, and but also they might not even think they need someone to listen.
18:55
SPEAKER_00: Maybe they do just need someone to listen to, a bit of a shoulder to cry on.
18:58
SPEAKER_00: And it is to this is another thing which I think is so important is just because it's natural doesn't always make it easy.
19:05
SPEAKER_00: Just because somebody goes through menopause and it's a totally natural process, it doesn't make it easy.
19:12
SPEAKER_00: The same as if you're pregnant, you might come into lots of different problems with pregnancy.
19:15
SPEAKER_00: It might not be that blissful and enjoyable experience that women make it out to always be.
19:20
SPEAKER_00: So I think that's also worth noting that even when it comes down to periods, periods can be really tough for people to go through.
19:27
SPEAKER_00: And having that understanding that as much as it's very natural and it does happen to our bodies, sometimes it makes things a lot harder.
19:35
unknown: Yeah.
19:35
SPEAKER_01: I mean, we can wake up, I can wake up in the morning full of energy, feel really good, and I can get to maybe two hours later, and I'm I'm I'm tired and I'm thinking, what's wrong with me?
19:48
SPEAKER_01: And I'm I'm not understanding it, and I'm not always connecting it to what's going on.
19:53
SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to find some explanation and getting really angry because of what's going on and why am I like this?
19:58
SPEAKER_01: Instead of just going, ah, have a moment, realize, think it and just accepting it and going with it instead of trying to fight it, I think is is important as well.
20:09
SPEAKER_00: I think hormonal like when hormones affect your mood, it's almost like a veil comes over you and you can't gain perspective or clarity that it's your hormones.
20:21
SPEAKER_00: So when you think it's the end of the world and you're crying because you stub your toe and everything's going wrong, and then the next day something happens where maybe your period comes, you're like, ah, okay, no, I wasn't going crazy.
20:31
SPEAKER_00: I was just joining the dots.
20:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
20:34
unknown: Yeah.
20:35
SPEAKER_01: It's sometimes hard when you're going through it to realize and go, ah, it is this is what it is.
20:41
SPEAKER_01: I can relax, kind of thing.
20:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
20:45
SPEAKER_01: Um it's amazing how many times we go through it and then forget what it is.
20:51
SPEAKER_00: I think it must just be a natural sort of female way of thinking about it.
20:55
SPEAKER_00: I think it's just maybe it's that cathartic process that we need to be able to really find a grasp on it eventually.
21:02
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think it's important as well when you say that sometimes you have a little nap and then that lets you get up and do your work because to look after yourself, you have to be able to work in a sustainable manner.
21:12
SPEAKER_00: And as much as we all wish we could turn up and give 110% every single time, because we do have that passion and love for our career, I think it's also realistic that we aren't machines.
21:23
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes you've got to have a bit of a disco nap to rejuvenate yourself and be able to come back within much more energy.
21:29
SPEAKER_00: Because if you just kept powering through, particularly as a power planner, putting together reports, having to look at everything as a picture, that that could impact upon your work and that could impact upon you inadvertently.
21:40
SPEAKER_00: And you don't want to feel like work suffering because of it.
21:43
SPEAKER_00: So I was talking to my stepmom about mental health when I was doing my mental health first aid uh certificate.
21:49
SPEAKER_00: And she is a retired nurse now, so she's seen it all, done it all.
21:53
SPEAKER_00: Um, and she has five kids as well.
21:55
SPEAKER_00: She's been through breast cancer, she's had so much in life where she said to me, She's like, I must have had.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: About three breakdowns, but I didn't really recognize that they were breakdowns.
22:03
SPEAKER_00: And I also didn't recognize it was my mental health.
22:06
SPEAKER_00: But I just thought to myself at one point, it's not normal that I can't get out of my pyjamas and I'm just staying on the sofa all day.
22:11
SPEAKER_00: I should probably go to the doctor.
22:13
SPEAKER_00: And then when I'm so advocating for mental health and pushing it forward, she's like, it's still kind of alien.
22:20
SPEAKER_00: I almost feel like because I suffered, you should suffer, but I know that's wrong.
22:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, definitely.
22:25
SPEAKER_01: It's definitely a um a less taboo uh subject.
22:31
SPEAKER_01: Like you say, I I've had issues in the past, I've had a breakdown in the past.
22:36
SPEAKER_01: I was off work.
22:37
SPEAKER_01: That's when I took the time off work.
22:39
SPEAKER_01: Um, I knew I wasn't right.
22:41
SPEAKER_01: I was sort of having a bit of a burnout and everything was too much.
22:44
SPEAKER_01: And I took two years off and then I went back to school and and studied performing arts, um, which it really helped my mental health, if to be honest.
22:54
SPEAKER_01: Um, I had to get rid of all my diaries and things like that.
22:57
SPEAKER_01: Anything that I felt restrained me or made me do things at a certain time, I had to sort of get rid of that.
23:04
SPEAKER_01: I'm all right again now.
23:05
SPEAKER_01: I can cope with having an appointment.
23:07
SPEAKER_01: Um, but at one stage of life, I couldn't cope with having an appointment, couldn't open the mail, yeah, couldn't take the rubbish out, didn't want to do anything.
23:17
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, being there.
23:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, me too.
23:19
SPEAKER_00: I remember I wouldn't like to pick up the phone to anyone.
23:23
SPEAKER_00: Um that would be terrifying.
23:25
SPEAKER_00: My mum was always like, Why do you never answer your phone?
23:27
SPEAKER_00: I do answer it more now, mum.
23:29
SPEAKER_00: Um uh, but I think it's one of those things where normal habitual habits just start falling and then you start stacking it on top of each other and you start feeling overwhelmed.
23:39
SPEAKER_00: And I think within a workplace, I'm very lucky at Recruit UK that they are very mindful of people's mental health, and it's sort of recruitment with a conscience and that element and financial planner life really advocates it.
23:51
SPEAKER_00: But for your experience through your career, sort of 30 years of financial planning, how has mental health's mentioning in the workplace changed?
24:02
SPEAKER_01: The place where I really noticed it change was a big corporation, sort of worldwide investment management company, and they were big on the mental health.
24:14
SPEAKER_01: Um, and when I when I experienced a colleague um commit suicide at their that particular place, um they had uh counsellors, they had a helpline, they had people coming in to speak to everybody in the office.
24:32
SPEAKER_01: Um they were really advocating, they were quite happy if you needed to take time off, etc.
24:41
SPEAKER_01: Um, because they knew what a big deal it was.
24:43
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
24:44
SPEAKER_01: Um to lose a colleague like that.
24:46
SPEAKER_01: And and I remember going into the office on the on the morning of it happening before anybody told me.
24:51
SPEAKER_01: And I'm thinking the the atmosphere was like everybody was really quiet, really down.
24:58
SPEAKER_01: I was thinking, what's wrong?
25:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
25:02
SPEAKER_01: Um and I was I was taken into this office and sat down and and told told what had happened, and I didn't really know how to deal with it.
25:11
SPEAKER_01: That's my first experience um of knowing somebody that had actually done that.
25:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um and I did find it hard, and I did end up leaving that company.
25:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um it was it was very hard, very painful, and being there every day just reminded me that that person wasn't, even though, if I'm honest, I didn't get on with that person 100%.
25:36
SPEAKER_01: We had our issues, um but it was still too painful for me after that to work there, and that's part of the reason I left.
25:46
SPEAKER_01: So I'm of the mind, did I actually deal with that or did I just run away?
25:52
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it sometimes dealing with it is leaving the situation, I think.
25:58
SPEAKER_00: Um and I think it's always for me.
26:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's so it becomes really like an internal conflict as well when you lose someone who's in your life who you didn't necessarily see eye to eye with, like you wouldn't normally like pick up the phone and talk to them.
26:13
SPEAKER_00: So when you speak to someone, when you don't necessarily speak to them all the time, they're not necessarily in your peripherals, but then you lose them and all these thoughts and feelings come up where you're like, should I have spoken to them more?
26:27
SPEAKER_00: Should I have been there for them more?
26:30
SPEAKER_01: Should I have seen that he was in distress?
26:32
SPEAKER_01: Should I have offered an ear to listen?
26:35
SPEAKER_01: Would he have taken any notice anyway because of the way the relationship was?
26:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
26:42
SPEAKER_00: And I think those are all very natural like emotions and questions come to the surface.
26:48
SPEAKER_00: And I think sometimes leaving that situation allows you to gain the perspective and the air and the space to be like there are things that can be put into a workplace that can help people in that situation.
27:01
SPEAKER_00: But the hardest thing is for people when they're it's almost a bit like hormones when a veil comes over you.
27:06
SPEAKER_00: You don't think it's hormones, you don't want to reach out and ask for help, you don't know what's going on.
27:10
SPEAKER_00: I think when you're experiencing depression, sometimes you just don't want to ask for help.
27:14
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes you don't think you need it as well.
27:17
SPEAKER_00: You go almost into denial and you're like, Oh no, I'm fine, I'm just gonna get on.
27:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
27:21
SPEAKER_01: I think also with depression, because you're trying to just cope and carry on, you go into kind of an automatic pilot mode where you're just kind of doing things and living on a you're existing rather than being present, you're just existing, and you've got to recognize that then and and and try and get some help.
27:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
27:43
SPEAKER_00: And I think it's interesting you took time and went into the performing arts because it's almost the most sort of it's like the opposite end of working in finance, really, isn't it?
27:52
SPEAKER_00: Because you've got this very strict, regulated industry, lots of rules and regulations, and then you've got this industry where you can just do whatever you want.
28:00
SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I feel like that must have been a really big emotional release for you.
28:04
SPEAKER_01: It was, it was.
28:05
SPEAKER_01: I mean, a lot of the sort of talking therapies that that I had when I when I was having my depression, what one of them was to to sit and think back the things that you used to enjoy as a child.
28:19
SPEAKER_01: Um, and one of those was was I wanted to be an actress.
28:23
SPEAKER_01: And my mum told me I should get a proper job.
28:26
SPEAKER_01: So so I didn't pursue it.
28:29
SPEAKER_01: Um, so that was the motivation behind that was well, yeah, uh this is what I wanted to do.
28:34
SPEAKER_01: Why don't I go and see if I was any good at it?
28:38
SPEAKER_01: I'm all right, I've got an equity card.
28:42
SPEAKER_00: I love that as well.
28:44
SPEAKER_00: Going back to, you know, I guess this is getting into almost like uh areas of counseling and what can be brought up within counseling, making your inner child happy.
28:52
SPEAKER_00: Um that's something which I've definitely through Recruit UK and through a previous employer is the only time I've ever been able to access talking therapy.
29:01
SPEAKER_00: And it's always been at points in my life where I've absolutely needed it.
29:04
SPEAKER_00: And it's been, in my opinion, probably life-changing, if not life-saving.
29:09
SPEAKER_00: And looking at, you know, your inner child and what makes your inner child happy.
29:13
SPEAKER_00: And now I almost feel like when I speak to certain people, like friends, colleagues, if I can sort of see their inner child in my eye, if I just think to them, me and you would have got on well in the playground, then I know that we're we're on that really genuine level with each other.
29:27
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I love looking at that.
29:29
SPEAKER_00: So I love that you took that as yep, I'm just gonna go take some time, go into the performing arts.
29:35
SPEAKER_00: And how did you find it coming back into the profession then after leaving?
29:39
SPEAKER_01: It it was tough because we'd had all um A-day, um, and I'd sort of come out at that point when it was all changing and then come back in.
29:51
SPEAKER_01: So when I left, we'd still got um capped drawdown, and we'd still got the you had to have a certain amount of secure earnings before you had flexi drawdown and all that kind of thing.
30:04
SPEAKER_01: So when I got back, everything had changed.
30:07
SPEAKER_01: Um, and it was difficult.
30:10
SPEAKER_01: It was difficult.
30:11
SPEAKER_01: I read a lot of of Pinks, um, I read a lot of articles, um, did a lot of reading last year's reports just to see.
30:19
SPEAKER_01: And you can, if if you've got a good paraplanner, you can see the changes as you're looking through, you can see the story, and you you can bring yourself up to speed, um, and then tax tables and things like that.
30:32
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you can you know get them from anywhere.
30:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, but everything had changed.
30:37
SPEAKER_01: Obviously, the null rate bands had changed, IHT had changed, the residence null rate band had come in, and uh it's ever evolving, as you know, so you do need to sort of keep up with it.
30:48
SPEAKER_01: But to me, it was the only thing that I knew that I felt that I was good at, besides the acting, and because I'd still got my mum in my head saying you need a proper job, um that's why I went came back to financial services and I do the other stuff in my own time.
31:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and ever since obviously progressing through to where you are today, I think looking at mental health in the workplace, I know we briefly spoke about ideas you'd you I think you'd taken to your employer and being like, let's see if we can implement this.
31:25
SPEAKER_00: And firstly, I commend you for that because I think taking ideas to your employer, whether it's about work or about how to support employees, is always quite daunting.
31:35
SPEAKER_00: And there might be people out there listening who are business owners who are like, no, come talk to me, please.
31:40
SPEAKER_00: It's not that scary.
31:41
SPEAKER_00: But there's probably people out there who are also like, no, it's it's quite terrifying because you don't want to overstep your mark, you don't want to step on any toes.
31:49
SPEAKER_00: But also, if you think there's a good idea that might help you and also help others, it's definitely worth speaking out about it.
31:56
SPEAKER_00: So tell me a bit more about that.
31:59
SPEAKER_01: Yes, so my husband was working as a support uh engineer, a networking company, and they had a thing called a duvet day.
32:11
SPEAKER_01: And he came home and told me about this duvet day.
32:14
SPEAKER_01: And a duvet day is where you don't have to give your employer any notice or book a holiday or anything, but you just wake up that morning and you just you just can't face it.
32:26
SPEAKER_01: It's just too much.
32:27
SPEAKER_01: You just want to roll over in bed and pull the covers back over and just ignore everything.
32:33
SPEAKER_01: Um, so what you would do is you'd email it into work or you'd ring into work and say, I'm having a duvet day.
32:40
SPEAKER_01: That's fine.
32:41
SPEAKER_01: They don't question it, they don't say, Oh, why or anything, it's it's your duvet day.
32:46
SPEAKER_01: Now it does come off your holiday entitlement, so that's gonna give you free day.
32:52
SPEAKER_01: Three day holiday.
32:53
SPEAKER_01: Um, and you only get one a year, so it's like you use it if you really, really need it.
32:58
SPEAKER_01: So the temptation to use, oh, I'll I'll use my duvet day and they'll just get a day off.
33:03
SPEAKER_01: It it kind of gets rid of that because it's one day.
33:06
SPEAKER_01: Any other time you've got to take sick leave, you need a doctor's note, or you've got to self-certify.
33:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:12
SPEAKER_01: Um, or it's got to be a holiday day.
33:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
33:15
SPEAKER_01: But a duvet day is when I've had these days, you just wake up and you just think, oh, I just, I just I can't do it.
33:23
SPEAKER_01: You can do it, but you can't emotionally, you just can't face it, you just can't do it.
33:29
SPEAKER_01: So I broached the idea of a duvet day uh with my employer, and he'd never heard of it.
33:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's quite a sort of recent thing, I think.
33:41
SPEAKER_00: My partner also works somewhere where they give DVA days, and I remember going, what?
33:45
SPEAKER_00: I could have done with those like four years ago.
33:48
SPEAKER_01: We need duvet days.
33:51
SPEAKER_00: I yeah, they are, I think as well, with the DVA day, the fact that it's just one day out of your holiday allowance means that it's not like you're putting some pushing something under the rug, you know.
34:03
SPEAKER_00: If you've got an issue in your life where you feel like you can't get out of bed multiple times, that's a different conversation to have.
34:10
SPEAKER_00: But everyone has days where they wake up and they think, oh, not today, just not today.
34:15
SPEAKER_00: And I don't mean a hangover day either.
34:17
SPEAKER_01: That's not when you use a Google day, that is not the purpose of it at all.
34:23
SPEAKER_01: So it's not to be abused, otherwise, they're not they're not gonna do it, it's not gonna be a thing.
34:28
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I definitely think it's a good idea.
34:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely.
34:34
SPEAKER_00: I think as well, you know, when people come into work, you are leaving so much personal stuff outside those doors.
34:41
SPEAKER_00: And you never know what people are walking in with.
34:44
SPEAKER_00: As much as you know someone, you never know what someone's walking in with.
34:47
SPEAKER_00: And I think having a duvet day shows that look, we trust you, we want you to be okay.
34:52
SPEAKER_00: And here is a day where if you just can't face it, you can't face it.
34:56
SPEAKER_00: And I think that is harder as well when you look at, for example, if you're an advisor and you're in a client-facing role constantly, you know, as a recruiter, if I'm having a bad day and I don't really want to talk to someone, I have I've still got to pick up the phone and talk to people.
35:10
SPEAKER_00: I've still got to be that, I've still got to be on as Charlie.
35:14
SPEAKER_00: And I think it is a little bit harder.
35:15
SPEAKER_00: And there's probably, you know, brainstorming that could go around putting things in place for people in those super client-facing worlds.
35:22
SPEAKER_00: Obviously, power planners do go into the client-facing world of it as well.
35:25
SPEAKER_00: And I think there are elements of all of the roles where you've got to be on that front level.
35:30
SPEAKER_00: But I think as an advisor, there is definitely also scope for them to create some level of an advisor duvet day where, you know, maybe they can just see their clients and take the afternoon off, have that flexibility, you know.
35:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
35:43
SPEAKER_01: Or they just, you know, they do Zoom calls every day.
35:46
SPEAKER_01: You know, they're not out and about and they're not doing house visits or whatever it is that they need to just have that time.
35:54
SPEAKER_01: Um having the choice is just paramount.
36:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
36:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
36:01
SPEAKER_00: I agree.
36:01
SPEAKER_00: I think we've been going through the B Corp process.
36:04
SPEAKER_00: And if you've been listening to my podcast episodes, I know we've been going through the process for a while, almost a year now, but we are so close to the end.
36:14
SPEAKER_00: And I highly recommend if anyone out there, even yourself, Gillian, want to know more about B Corp, and my brain is full of it at the moment.
36:20
SPEAKER_00: And it is just about giving people the choice to look after their mental health.
36:25
SPEAKER_00: And recently we came up, we were trying to come up with how to incentivize mental health, which is a bit different.
36:31
SPEAKER_00: How do we ensure that people are actively engaging in their mental health and physical well-being?
36:38
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, we were coming up with ideas like maybe we can do a tally every time someone does something that they set themselves a personal goal for, if they reach their tally, maybe we can take them to the local juice bar and get shots and a smoothie for people who hit it, really brainstorming over quite different things that might come into place, might not, to try and encourage people to really look after their well-being.
36:58
SPEAKER_00: And I think as a manager, when people bring these ideas to you, if you don't have, you know, your business is made up of so many people.
37:05
SPEAKER_00: And if you've got five of a thousand at the top making the decisions, I can bet there is not somebody who represents every single person in that business at that table.
37:16
SPEAKER_00: And so to have these ideas come forward and have that collaborative contribution will help so many more people within the business, I think.
37:26
SPEAKER_01: I think if your manager or employer is sincere and lets you know that you can talk, you can come and maybe there's a suggestion box and you're it's anonymous or whatever, but there is a path for making these kinds of suggestions, then people are more likely to make them.
37:45
SPEAKER_01: If they think they're not going to be heard, then they're just not going to bother.
37:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I agree.
37:50
SPEAKER_00: I think from doing my mental health first aid course, um, I it's it's it's pretty straightforward.
37:57
SPEAKER_00: It was a level two, maybe level three, I think.
38:00
SPEAKER_00: But I genuinely believe that every single company should have at least one person take it like a normal first aid course, particularly in managerial positions, because not only do you understand more about signposting and looking out for signs in your employees, but it's about creating that safe, inclusive space where somebody in the business will be that safe space for someone, if that makes sense.
38:25
SPEAKER_00: You know, it will create that open dialogue.
38:28
SPEAKER_00: Because if you've got a very closed door policy, then these things are going to get swept under the rug, and then they can come out in a much uglier way than just someone saying, Can I just have a duvet day, please?
38:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
38:40
SPEAKER_01: I think it's uh an evolving thing because, like you say, maybe 10 years ago, you wouldn't have dreamed of maybe speaking to your employer about how you were feeling because what's that relevant to anything to you know in the old-fashioned ways, as long as you're making them money, they don't care.
38:57
SPEAKER_01: And I think we need to get away from that thought, that mindset that that's been in the past.
39:04
SPEAKER_01: I think we need to move along like a paraplanner rule, which is now everywhere.
39:08
SPEAKER_01: We need to evolve the mental health space as well, so that it it's people are confident and and secure that they can they're doing what they're doing, and they're not gonna get sacked because they're mental or you know, there's something wrong with them or or whatever, because these are the old stigmas, these are the old way that people, if I say that, they're gonna think this about me, and that's what we need to stop.
39:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's like uh old limiting beliefs are are what's gonna stop us from moving forward and actually creating you know workforces that can be such positive forces for good.
39:45
SPEAKER_00: Um I think that's something which I really resonate with is turning a business into a power for good, power of positivity, because ultimately, you know, we can you can signpost people to Samaritans or mind or all these different things.
40:00
SPEAKER_00: And as a business, that's like your own little hub of people where you can influence them and give them as much as you possibly can to help them in in the office, but also outside of the office, and that will trickle through and sort of like a ripple effect, you know, through to the rest.
40:16
SPEAKER_00: If they can maybe have more mental health support in work, then maybe they'll be able to sit down and help their kids do their homework.
40:21
SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, maybe they'll be able to sit with their clients more who inadvertently helps their family.
40:26
SPEAKER_00: So all intrinsically links together as well, which is so beautiful.
40:30
SPEAKER_01: I agree, I agree.
40:31
SPEAKER_01: It's really good.
40:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that space, space to speak, space to speak, space to speak.
40:38
SPEAKER_00: I mean, even here sometimes we do um the girls come and grab me and they're like, Charlie, can we go do some journaling in the meeting room?
40:45
SPEAKER_00: Can we go do like a guided meditation?
40:47
SPEAKER_00: And I think these things sometimes it might trigger people in a way of a certain language, like, oh, you know, they're gonna meditate or they're gonna journal or blah.
40:56
SPEAKER_00: But actually, just go sit in a dark room by yourself for five minutes.
41:00
SPEAKER_00: That's all you need to do sometimes.
41:02
SPEAKER_00: And I think, particularly working from home, do you have obviously you said you have your little like naps to recharge yourself?
41:08
SPEAKER_00: Do you have other ways of being able to bring yourself back off that ledge and into a zen zone?
41:14
SPEAKER_01: Uh yes, I mean, I'll go take the dog for a walk, um, get some fresh air, leave the computer in the house, take myself out of the house.
41:23
SPEAKER_01: Um just sort of how do I describe it?
41:29
SPEAKER_01: It's being present in the moment, but away from the desk.
41:33
SPEAKER_01: So going outside and realizing, oh yeah, that there's a tree, for example.
41:38
SPEAKER_01: I don't want to sound all like tree huggy or anything, but that's a tree.
41:40
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna feel like a tree.
41:42
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna be present in the moment.
41:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, this is now, this is happening, this is where I am.
41:47
SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna worry about all that other stuff that I can't control because it's just taking up energy that I've not got, because I've got to just do what I'm doing.
41:57
SPEAKER_01: So it's having that that mindfulness and that thought process as well to know when you need to take a walk, to know when you need to just switch the screens off for five minutes, to know when it's just you're just flogging a dead horse kind of thing.
42:15
SPEAKER_01: Um it's having the tools, and if your employer can give you the tools to recognise, I think that's one of the first steps.
42:22
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes like that, we don't recognise.
42:24
SPEAKER_01: But if you've got an employer that's like done what you've done or done, of course, and is is aware of these things, so much more uh dialogue and conversation and good things are gonna come of that than than not speaking and no, oh well, I best go home and just speak to my husband about it because you know if I speak to my employer, I'm you know, I'm gonna get a label on me and they're gonna put a market side in my name and HR and people's minds when they're anxious, they just mech all these things up in their head, and yeah, it makes it 50 times worse instead of just having a base and going, right, this is my problem, this is what I need to do.
43:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I did you know, I did this course with my employer, we did this thing, and I recognize it.
43:09
SPEAKER_01: Something's uh alarming in my head, and uh and this is what I need to do.
43:14
SPEAKER_01: Just giving the people the tools to to look after themselves and to recognize that they need to take time out and maybe go and have a shower or have a bath or have a walk or a cup of tea.
43:27
SPEAKER_00: Oh, cups of tea.
43:28
SPEAKER_00: Gosh, they've saved me.
43:31
SPEAKER_00: I I know a hundred percent.
43:33
SPEAKER_00: The tools, and I think that comes back to education of in the workplace, what can you do to raise awareness?
43:40
SPEAKER_00: And I think maybe it was last Christmas we did um 12 days of recruit UK Christmas, and one of them was a mindful day.
43:47
SPEAKER_00: So I think I did a journaling workshop, somebody else did an affirmations workshop, we did like a little bit of a yoga stretch, and we just talked through and I said, look, this might work for you, it might not.
43:58
SPEAKER_00: I'm sharing what I do to help myself, and if it resonates with you, it resonates with you.
44:03
SPEAKER_00: And then ever since we did that, people have come and grabbed me and been like, Can we go do that journaling again or can we go meditate?
44:09
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, Yeah, of course.
44:11
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's the thing is if people aren't shown what to do, then they're gonna be stuck in the same space, almost their own echo chamber.
44:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and they're gonna get more poorly if they're just stuck and not finding any way out.
44:25
SPEAKER_01: So they need to be given the the ways out, and once you've given people the ways and means to do something, they do it.
44:34
SPEAKER_01: They don't we don't want to feel like this forever, we want to, you know, function.
44:41
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
44:42
SPEAKER_01: It's the non-functioning that's the hard part, yeah.
44:45
SPEAKER_00: And I think as well, you know, if there's somebody listening today who's thinking, oh gosh, this kind of mirrors my situation, I'm not feeling that great.
44:54
SPEAKER_00: I think once you speak to someone else in the business, they'll not only do you feel better, you feel lighter, it's like a problem shared is a problem halved, but you've also got that person who is almost they're gonna have your back.
45:08
SPEAKER_00: You know, I genuinely believe humans are they have good intentions, you know.
45:13
SPEAKER_00: And I think if you share that you're not feeling okay with somebody who you see as that safe space, then that's that's who to go to, and they will have your back and it will make you feel better.
45:23
SPEAKER_00: And I think if you are sat there and you're thinking, right, what can we do in my business?
45:27
SPEAKER_00: My business is thinking, you know, what can we do where I work to help people?
45:30
SPEAKER_00: Because there's not as much, you know, as what you we're discussing in the business, just brainstorm, go to your employer, have a look online, message me, message Gillian.
45:41
SPEAKER_00: If you want to talk about mental health in the workplace, it's something that I'm very passionate about and you're very passionate about because you've got to fly the flag for the things that matter.
45:51
SPEAKER_00: And I think if you've got your voice to articulate it, then you're already, you know, very privileged to be able to do so.
45:58
SPEAKER_00: So why not use it for something good?
46:00
SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah.
46:02
SPEAKER_00: Well, Gillian, I think that's that's the wrap-up of today.
46:06
SPEAKER_00: I really have enjoyed speaking with you.
46:08
SPEAKER_00: I feel almost a bit emotional and like I just want to go out and make sure everyone that I'm working with is feeling okay.
46:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
46:15
SPEAKER_00: And just, you know, maybe do like a lunch and learn about something and do a journaling session with everyone at some point, because I think it is so important that you know, maybe that person's been a little bit quieter today and and they need a bit of one-on-one, or maybe they just need someone to go, oh, do you want me to go get you a coffee?
46:33
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes simple things.
46:35
SPEAKER_00: It is indeed.
46:36
SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Gillian.
46:39
SPEAKER_00: If anyone wants to reach out and speak to her about her experience, wants to just bounce ideas off her, I'm sure you'll be able to find both of us on LinkedIn.
46:49
SPEAKER_00: I'm sure you will.