Latest / HAVE FAITH LET IT BEGIN® / Hell, Grace, and the Proving Ground: A Father's Debate

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Hell, Grace, and the Proving Ground: A Father's Debate · HAVE FAITH LET IT BEGIN®

• 0:00
  Welcome to Have Faith, Let It Begin. This is Ariel Santana.
• 0:04
  Can you believe I'm seven years old already? I'm old enough now to introduce my dad.
• 0:10
  Ladies and gentlemen, your host, my dad, Angel Santana.
• 0:47
  Hello everyone and welcome to Have Faith, Let It Begin. This is your host, Angel Santana.
• 0:52
  And today's episode is definitely going to be a little different,
• 0:56
  a little deeper, and I think for some, maybe even a little uncomfortable, but in a good way.
• 1:05
  We're going to talk about something that people don't always agree on.
• 1:11
  Something that has been debated for generations.
• 1:15
  And that's the topic of H-E double hockey sticks, as we used to call it as a kid. That would be hell.
• 1:25
  Yes, I can't believe we're going there, but we are. And when I say we,
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  I didn't want to have this conversation alone.
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  So joining me today is someone I respect, someone I trust, and someone who's
• 1:36
  not afraid to have real conversations.
• 1:39
  We all know who it is. I call him the professor, and he's back.
• 1:44
  Sir Nick is back. Nick, I'm really glad you're here, my friend. How are you, buddy?
• 1:48
  Yeah, I'm good, Angel. And I was looking forward to this discussion.
• 1:53
  I mean, it's kind of like an academic discussion, but it's a good one to have, I think.
• 1:58
  I agree. And I agree. And I think what, what everybody should know is that this
• 2:02
  was actually one of your ideas. And I, when I heard, I said, we got to do this.
• 2:06
  So, you know, we, we, we, we've been pulling it off, putting it off.
• 2:10
  Cause we've got, God knows we've had enough things in our lives,
• 2:12
  but that's a separate episode.
• 2:15
  Yeah. But before we get into it, I just want to set the tone for today's conversation.
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  This isn't about fear. This isn't about judgment.
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  It's, it's something that's definitely isn't about telling anyone.
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  This is the only way to think, right? This is about perspective.
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  This is about faith. And honestly, this is about trying to understand the heart
• 2:37
  of God a little bit better.
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  So when people hear the word hell, a lot of times what comes to mind is fire, right?
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  Punishment, eternal suffering. But I've been sitting with this and praying about
• 2:51
  it and I don't fully see it.
• 2:55
  But before we do that, I want to slow this down and give you the opportunity
• 3:00
  to take over the show because this was your idea. This is your baby.
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  Nick, the floor is yours.
• 3:07
  Okay, Angel. Thank you. And I'd be very interested.
• 3:11
  I hope that your listening audience kind of weighs in on it after we're done here.
• 3:16
  I'd be very curious to hear what they have to say.
• 3:21
  So you know so just so that everyone knows I'm more of a traditional Catholic
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  so you know I take what's in the Bible,
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  I would say pretty literally so I do believe that there is a hell whether it's
• 3:42
  fire and brimstone I wouldn't say I'm married to that but it's certainly not.
• 3:51
  Eternal life in paradise. Let's put it that way.
• 3:55
  You know, I'm going to start off by, with a quote, which I think kind of highlights my belief of it.
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  And it's from a British author, C.S.
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  Lewis, pretty prominent author.
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  He's actually the guy who wrote the Chronicles of Nardia, the kid's book.
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  And he says that during life, we say to God, thy will be done, right?
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  In the Lord's prayer, thy will be done.
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  But at the judgment day, God will say,
• 4:36
  thy will be done, meaning
• 4:39
  this is your judgment during life
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  you had free will you chose not to follow me so that is thy will and this is
• 4:53
  my judgment so that's kind of the where where my belief comes from i think.
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  What becomes part of this discussion is the concept of purgatory,
• 5:07
  which is kind of in between heaven and hell.
• 5:10
  And I'm going to touch on that a little bit. I'm not so sure that I believe
• 5:15
  that there really is a purgatory, but I'm actually going to relate it to something else.
• 5:21
  But, yeah, I think at the final coming, you know, he is going to be the judge.
• 5:26
  And the measure of that judgment will be the way we've responded to his word during our lifetime.
• 5:37
  He gives us free choice. We can choose to do whatever we want.
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  Now, did we choose light or did we choose darkness?
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  If we made the right choices, obviously we chose the light and we're going to be rewarded for that.
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  But there is repercussions for not choosing the light and leading a life that's
• 6:01
  not conducive to God's word or the way he has preached to us to live.
• 6:08
  So there's a consequence attached to that.
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  Now, you know, we've all gone through it.
• 6:14
  We've all had times in our life that we may not be very proud of, things that we've done.
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  I know I look back at things that I've done when I was a kid growing up and
• 6:24
  2020 hindsight being what it is.
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  I would never do that today, but they weren't such great things.
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  But I do recognize it now. And I have. I have.
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  You know, said my peace with God that, you know, I apologize for that,
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  and I shouldn't have behaved, I shouldn't have done this, and I shouldn't have
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  done that, and asked for his forgiveness.
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  And there are plenty of people throughout history and actually in the Bible
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  who weren't very good people, you know, and I'll just go through a few of them.
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  You have St. Paul, who's sometimes called Saul or sometimes called Paul,
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  but he was not a good dude.
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  He was a murderer and a persecutor.
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  I mean, he actually saw and condoned the stoning of St.
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  Stephen, who was the first martyr, who preached God's word but was stoned to
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  death, and Paul was right there with the crowd.
• 7:32
  David, King David, David and Goliath, right?
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  This is supposed to have been in the lineage of Christ, David.
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  But David was a murderer and an adulterer.
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  He killed, you know, the story of David and Bathsheba.
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  Well, Bathsheba was the wife of his friend. And he had inclinations for his wife.
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  And he sent his best friend into war on the front lines, hoping that he would
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  get killed and that he could marry his wife.
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  You have Mary Magdalene, who was, she was possessed by demons.
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  St. Mary of Egypt, she was a prostitute for 17 years.
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  And then you have, you know, more common ones like Matthew, who was a tax,
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  was a corrupt tax collector, who became an apostle of Jesus and handpicked by Jesus.
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  And then you have Moses.
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  Moses killed an Egyptian who was beating a Hebrew.
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  Now, these are all pretty bad offenses,
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  but they came to realize that they made mistakes, and they professed those mistakes,
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  and they changed their life into being one in belief of God, God's way.
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  So that can happen,
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  It's impossible to live a perfect lifestyle But at some point,
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  you need to recognize the fact that That's not what God put us here for,
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  So, you know, we pay the price and suffer the consequences,
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  By what I believe is being sent to a place called hell You have to pay the price
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  You're not going to come to Judgment Day and then attain eternal bliss by living a bad life.
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  Jesus says in John 6, I will not reject anyone who comes to me.
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  So you can do bad things and things that are not appropriate,
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  but if you come to God and confess and say, you know, I'm sorry for what I did. I recognize what I did.
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  I beg your forgiveness. That's all he wants.
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  And he basically wipes this slate clean.
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  It's like this life is, and I don't know if anyone has heard the terminology,
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  the Aberdeen Proving Ground.
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  Aberdeen is a location in Maryland where they test technology and national defense concepts.
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  So this is like our proving ground, our presence here on Earth,
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  and the way we conduct ourselves this is the proving ground.
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  Did we prove ourselves to be worthy of heaven or do we prove ourselves to be,
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  you know, not worthy of heaven and the paradise that God has prepared for us?
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  Now that kind of leads to a little bit about whether there's a purgatory or not, a middle ground.
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  I'm kind of on the fence with that one because I actually believe that this
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  is the purgatory. We're in it now. Thank you.
• 11:07
  And there's actually, in the Catholic religion, there's actually a prayer that's
• 11:12
  said to the Blessed Virgin.
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  And I'm just going to go just read a couple of sentences from there.
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  And it says, it's a hail, holy queen, mother of mercy, our life,
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  our sweetness, and our hope.
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  To thee we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.
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  This is the valley of tears. And after this, our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of your womb.
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  This is our exile. That's what I believe.
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  But I also believe, Angel, that there may be some offenses that we may die with
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  that are not very onerous.
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  That maybe there is kind of a next stepping stone that we can work this out.
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  And he'd be willing to let us
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  work these minor offenses out before we're granted eternal life with him.
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  So maybe that there might be a purgatory, but certainly not for things that
• 12:16
  are very onerous or anything like that.
• 12:20
  I don't think that purgatory would be that place.
• 12:23
  So basically it's, you know, we are kind of in control of our eternal souls
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  and we have the free choice.
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  We have the choice whether we want to reside with God one day or not.
• 12:47
  That's kind of my position. It's very interesting how you brought that up.
• 12:51
  But a couple of questions I have before I give you my perspective.
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  So what you're alluding to is, so can we break this down a little bit?
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  So you take your last breath.
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  Let's give an example based on what I'm hearing. You take your last breath.
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  You've made some mistakes. Let's give two versions. We made some typical mistakes.
• 13:17
  Let's just call them that.
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  Nothing crazy, okay? We'll use that as another example.
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  Just a typical, you know, maybe a stole piece of gum. I don't know.
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  Just something very, nothing too crazy, right?
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  At that moment, what do you think happens right at that moment?
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  Well, at that moment, you know, our resume is in front of the Lord.
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  And he sees it all. And he'll go through it, I believe, and say,
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  you know, you've lived a generally a good life, a faithful life to me.
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  But you've got these couple of minor things here that are kind of outstanding.
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  You know, I think you need we need to I think it becomes sort of like a negotiation
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  after that. But, you know, we're going to kind of put you off to the side here for a while.
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  Maybe you have to think about this or you have to do something else in order
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  to for him to say, OK, you're now worthy enough to to reside with me in the
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  place that I prepared for you.
• 14:22
  OK. So on the other hand, like I said, it's very, very onerous that,
• 14:26
  you know, you didn't treat people well. You were a thief or done things to that nature.
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  You know, I don't think those things you can take back. And I don't think those
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  things you can work out. You just didn't earn your right.
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  Okay. Well, now, with that being said, because there's a point I'm going with
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  this because it's going to allude to my perspective.
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  So now let's use the other example.
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  You've lived a very adventurous life, not in a good way.
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  You've done really malicious things. you've done things that really break the
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  10 commandments you take your last breath are you still given the same options.
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  You don't believe so. I don't believe you owe the same options.
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  I think that ties into that section in John that I read.
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  I will not reject anyone who comes to me. If you've never came to me and profess
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  your wrongdoings during your life, then it's too late.
• 15:32
  Interesting. That's what I believe. So in their great perspectives and thank
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  you for being, you know, detailed with that.
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  I don't believe that God is sitting there waiting to send people to hell.
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  I know you don't either, you know, you're cause I'm not, you know,
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  you, you, you think he weighs the options right there, but I, I believe God is love.
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  I believe God is patient and I believe that God is consistently trying to bring
• 16:00
  us back to him. And I also don't believe that everyone automatically goes to
• 16:06
  hell because of their mistakes.
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  Because if that were the case, then what was the cross for?
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  This is the way I think. For me, I see it differently.
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  I believe that there's a moment, maybe right before we die, or in that space
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  we don't fully understand yet, a moment where we are confronted with the truth. Right?
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  Where we see clearly, maybe for the first time, the choices that we've made,
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  the good, the bad, the things that we ignored.
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  And in that moment, I believe we're faced with something real.
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  Goodness and evil, light and darkness.
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  And we're given a choice, not a rush choice, not a force choice,
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  but a real honest moment where God in his grace allows us to respond.
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  So let me lean into that grace part real quick, because I don't believe God
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  is trying to keep people out of heaven.
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  I believe he's doing everything possible to bring people in.
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  And even if we've made mistakes, even if we've gone down that wrong path,
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  I believe God through Jesus, obviously
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  one and all, right, gives us an opportunity to make things right.
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  Not because we've earned it, but because he loves us.
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  Let that sink in. So for me, hell isn't just a place.
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  It could be separation. It could be the result of rejecting that love,
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  but I don't see it as God's desire.
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  I see heaven as the invitation and hell as the consequence of saying no.
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  What do you think about that?
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  Yes, hell. I believe that last name. I believe hell is the consequence of saying no.
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  And his presence on the cross, I believe, I think it hurts him very much.
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  And I don't, I think he would want to see everybody in heaven.
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  But it's a special place. It's a special place that has to be earned.
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  And I believe that we are, as we go through our life,
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  we are earning our stripes for that judgment to have earned that special spot
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  with him in heaven and that our choices during our lifetime are unchangeable at the end.
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  We've done what we did, and we didn't follow his way. And I think that hurts him very much.
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  But that's why we have free will.
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  That's why we have free will. We have free choice to do whatever we want.
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  Of course, his choice would be to follow him, to recognize where you've gone
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  wrong, and ask for repentance.
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  And he'd be overjoyed as a merciful God to give you that repentance, no matter what it is.
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  You could have killed someone, but if you know that was wrong and you repent
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  and live a life after that in his light.
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  You have earned your spot in heaven. This is why we're doing it,
• 19:46
  right? This is the debate.
• 19:48
  Yeah, it's a great debate, a great debate issue. It really is.
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  And I welcome, you know, we both welcome anyone that would like to come on and
• 19:55
  give their opinion so that we can add a third, a fourth, a fifth,
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  a sixth voice to this debate because really, none of us really know the real
• 20:04
  answer until the day comes, right?
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  I mean, we know what the scriptures say. We know what we believe our hearts
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  say and we know that we hear the Bible speaking to us, but we really don't truly
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  know until we take our last breath.
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  And I think that what you said, Nick, I agree to disagree and I disagree to agree.
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  And I love that because I'm sure I made you think tonight and I know that you made me think.
• 20:32
  So let's leave it at that. Let's leave it open for the audience,
• 20:37
  for the Half-Faith Let It Begin family to share their opinion with us.
• 20:44
  Do you have anything else you want to add before we wrap things up?
• 20:47
  No, no, I think you perfectly laid it out. I'd be really interested and be very willing to come back on.
• 20:56
  And if there's someone out there who would like to come back on and speak to
• 21:00
  this, it would be great just to hear another voice, another opinion.
• 21:05
  And who knows, maybe you could change my mind about the way I think about it,
• 21:10
  you know, but yeah, I would, I would welcome that.
• 21:13
  I think this is a great time to say that we have created a new series and the
• 21:19
  series is going to be the great debates and Nick and I are going to.
• 21:25
  Officially open that up with this episode. So we'll look for Nick and I to come
• 21:30
  back with future debates of future topics, whether it's spiritual,
• 21:34
  whether it's political, we're going to go down that route.
• 21:37
  I think this is a good way. I think there's a great way to segue into spirituality.
• 21:42
  You know, when I say about political, I'm not talking about consistent,
• 21:46
  not real politics, but a political spiritual way of looking at things because
• 21:53
  everybody has their views on things.
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  So let's do this. Before we wrap up, let's just take a moment and pray together.
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  Because remember, a day without prayer is a day without power.
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  And Nick, if you'd like, you can join me.
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  I know that offline, you know, Nick is battling storms.
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  I shared that, you know, the other day on the show, I shared with all of you
• 22:20
  that there are people out there that are dealing with struggles.
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  I'm in the storm too, you know. just started and all of us are in the storms
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  so you know this is the time we come together,
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  and we create the body of christ and we put on that armor and help each other
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  so let's do that father god we come before you today with open hearts this isn't
• 22:45
  an easy topic and it's not one we fully understand, but we trust in you.
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  We trust in the middle of it.
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  And God, we want you to remind us that your love reminds us that you are patient,
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  reminds us that your grace is bigger than our mistakes.
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  So help us not to live in fear, but to live in a relationship with you and to
• 23:11
  guide our hearts, our thoughts, shape our hearts, give us wisdom to seek truth, not just opinions.
• 23:19
  And for anyone listening right now who feels lost,
• 23:24
  unsure, or even afraid. Let them feel your presence.
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  Let them feel your peace and remind them that it's never too late to turn back to you.
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  We thank you. We trust in you, Lord, and we love you just as much as you love us.
• 23:40
  We pray for Diane.
• 23:43
  We pray for Cassandra. We pray for Or Professor Nick, we call him.
• 23:49
  We pray for a minister that we know, Brian Randazzo.
• 23:55
  We pray for Samuel. We pray for Debbie. We pray for all those that we may have forgotten to mention.
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  We ask you this in your precious name. Nick, you have the final say,
• 24:09
  and I thank you again for being a part of this conversation.
• 24:11
  I really appreciate you.
• 24:13
  And close us out, and then I'll say one more thing.
• 24:18
  Okay. Well, again, I want to thank you, Angel, for the opportunity. I really enjoyed it.
• 24:25
  You know, these academic issues are really important, I think, for us to debate.
• 24:31
  And hopefully it can help your audience to think a little bit about their lives
• 24:38
  and the things that happen.
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  And like you said, whatever it is, whatever side you take, you have to realize
• 24:48
  that God is always there. He's always there for you.
• 24:53
  Even if you think he's not, he is.
• 24:56
  Yeah, amen. And to everyone listening, This wasn't about having all the answers.
• 25:02
  This wasn't about starting the conversation.
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  Take some time today, sit with this and pray about it.
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  Think about it. And more than anything, remember this. God isn't trying to push
• 25:16
  you away. He's calling you closer.
• 25:18
  He's calling you home. And he's telling you, you are not alone.
• 25:25
  For Have Faith, Let It Begin. My name is Angel And this is Nick We will be back
• 25:31
  again Very soon With a recap And a part two to this Including more segments
• 25:38
  More episodes That will allow you to explore your mind,
• 25:42
  Explore your faith And more importantly,
• 25:46
  Learn to be in the presence of our Heavenly Father May God be with you May He
• 25:51
  shine His light upon you And grant each and every single one of you Peace on
• 25:54
  earth And never forget Have faith and let it begin. Talk to you soon.
• 26:01
  Thank you for listening to Have Faith, Let It Begin. We'll be back tomorrow.
• 26:06
  Thank you for listening to another episode of Have Faith, Let It Begin.
• 26:10
  That's right, Ariel. We're done with another show. And it's always great to
• 26:14
  have this show with you, my love.
• 26:15
  You know, we're going to encourage each and every person to listen to our show every single weekday.
• 26:20
  That's right. You and I are going to help change the world.
• 26:23
  Do you think that you can do that for me? Huh? Yeah. You know you can.
• 26:28
  She does. We want to let you know, and yes, we encourage you to listen to our
• 26:32
  show each and every weekday, and it's going to be live at 730.
• 26:36
  Make sure you're subscribed to our show. Make sure you get ready.
• 26:40
  Fasten those seatbelts because Ariel and I and my family are going to bring
• 26:44
  you a new topic, a new story each and every day, right? Isn't that right, Ariel?
• 26:50
  Yeah. And we...
• 26:53
  She's smiling at me. Guys, enjoy your day. Thank you for listening to How Faithful
• 26:59
  Begins. We'll be back tomorrow.