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Wicked: For Good · Citizen Frame

• 0:24
  Hey, buddy. Welcome back to another exciting episode of Sinister Frame.
• 0:27
  And happy new year. It's 2026.
• 0:31
  And what better way to start off 2026 than with a sequel to the big hit of Wicked,
• 0:38
  which is called Wicked for Good.
• 0:41
  Very clever. Very clever. We got original team back.
• 0:45
  John Chu is back to direct this based on the novel from, what's his name? Gregory Maguire.
• 0:52
  Yes. I think it was written in the mid-90s.
• 0:55
  Yep. Wicked, The Life and Times of the Wicked Witch of the West.
• 0:59
  It is. This is the sequel.
• 1:02
  I'm sure they did them back-to-back, obviously, because it came out just a year later.
• 1:06
  So I'm sure they did them all in sync and yada, yada, yada. So the original
• 1:09
  cast is back. There's not much really to add to it.
• 1:14
  But this one, not as well-received and not the biggest hit.
• 1:19
  Same thing as the last one. It cost $150 million to make. It's only made $510 million.
• 1:25
  No, don't get me wrong. That's a lot of money, but it's a significant drop from
• 1:29
  $250 million more that the original made.
• 1:33
  But this is getting kind of bum reviews. I've watched it. That's right,
• 1:38
  people. Twice, because I'm classy.
• 1:41
  If I'm going to tear something to shreds, I better fucking back it up.
• 1:44
  First time I watched this, I was going to tear it to shreds.
• 1:46
  I still am, probably, because I'm a mean-spirited prick.
• 1:50
  And it's a Sunday morning. And my Tampa Bay Buccaneers have won last night.
• 1:56
  But we have to wait, and hopefully the fucking Saints win their game for us
• 2:00
  to make it to the playoffs.
• 2:01
  And I hate when we have to depend on another team to get us into the playoffs.
• 2:06
  So I'm not in the mood. Oh, Mr. Badass.
• 2:09
  Worrying about his futuristic rugby.
• 2:14
  It's getting so old, man. Shit all the time. And you're going to take it out
• 2:18
  on Wicked for good. That's terrible.
• 2:22
  What? Me going to rip on Wicked or, hey, that's a tongue twister.
• 2:27
  Rip on Wicked or that you think is terrible.
• 2:32
  But we'll get to it, let's just say. But no, no, you were saying about Wicked
• 2:36
  for Good not doing as well as the previous one.
• 2:40
  It's something similar, actually, over the Christmas period with the new Avatar.
• 2:45
  It hasn't done as well as the previous two. So I don't know,
• 2:49
  maybe it's a bad sign for cinemas. Who knows?
• 2:52
  I don't think it's sad. I just think people want something new.
• 2:56
  That's all. The Avatar was going to eventually fall flat.
• 2:59
  I mean, it made its money, but not as much as the others. Well,
• 3:03
  I suppose it is the sort of law of diminishing returns.
• 3:07
  Yeah. I mean, people get sick of the same thing. It's copy and paste, copy and paste.
• 3:11
  But let's just jump into Wicked here and see how they wrap things up. So there you go.
• 3:18
  So this takes place, I don't know.
• 3:21
  There's a problem with this film. and I always like to bitch about if I don't get it, timelines.
• 3:26
  I know they try to use the Pepperin. This takes place during the actual Wizard of Oz. Yeah.
• 3:33
  So when we see Dorothy and yada, yada, yada, we kind of know where we're at.
• 3:37
  That's kind of the way they did it.
• 3:39
  But I do get lost a little bit and what has passed.
• 3:44
  And maybe there's one line there that I'm missing, but maybe you'll- Well,
• 3:49
  it's set like I believe so many
• 3:51
  years after the events of the previous Wicked
• 3:55
  at least months anyway
• 3:58
  where basically Elphaba has been
• 4:01
  demonised as the Wicked Witch of the
• 4:04
  West and Glinda is basically she's been promoted to social media influencer
• 4:11
  in Oz you know she's like the top woman and everybody loves her because she
• 4:15
  was always she always wanted to be popular but she's conflicted because she
• 4:20
  did have a bit of growth No, but that...
• 4:23
  Okay, but that... Yeah, it still doesn't help with timelines.
• 4:26
  But it gets a little confusing because you've got all these characters from
• 4:30
  the other one. You got the fucking Naysa, who's now governor.
• 4:34
  Bach is her bitch slave. Yeah.
• 4:38
  You've got, and Firo is head of the military. So there's a leap here.
• 4:43
  Oh yeah. It's set so many years or at least months after the events of the previous one.
• 4:48
  All right. We'll just go with that, I suppose. Not the end of the world.
• 4:54
  But we open up with the yellow brick row being built and they're using animals as slave labor.
• 5:00
  And Witchy Poo shows up to kind of put them in their place for not,
• 5:03
  you know, don't hurt the animals.
• 5:04
  Yada yada yada the one thing the first film kind of got right it had a darker
• 5:08
  element to it this one should have had a lot more darker tone to it and they kind of,
• 5:14
  pushy foot around things and it could have been edgier like the other one was
• 5:20
  and that's where the one thing, there's a couple things that this movie does
• 5:24
  not do well especially with some topics we're about to talk about.
• 5:30
  What I find essentially is that,
• 5:34
  they have too much sort of
• 5:37
  storylines and plotlines to deal with and so
• 5:39
  much to do that what we get on the screen is
• 5:43
  very it feels to me anyway very rushed
• 5:46
  and you know it's like there's too much
• 5:49
  to do i also think that the wizard of oz elements from
• 5:53
  you know the original from the 1930s hurt
• 5:57
  it a lot but we'll get to it let's talk
• 5:59
  about some of the character flaws i mean the one thing i praised the
• 6:02
  original for was glinda and
• 6:06
  elfie's journeys and we talked about arts and glinda
• 6:10
  i thought had the best she finally found her niche at the last episode
• 6:13
  last episode last film she was confident she
• 6:16
  wasn't a little bitchy woman that she was she's no
• 6:19
  she no longer calling herself galinda etc etc
• 6:22
  this one she's just a clueless twat again i mean
• 6:25
  she went from finding herself and all good to
• 6:28
  go i'll probably get in trouble for calling on that but i don't give a fuck but
• 6:31
  but now she's just she's just clueless again she's come back to who what she
• 6:36
  was there's no she doesn't she she finds yourself again but we already did this
• 6:41
  the first time well it is sort of i know what you're saying but it is sort of
• 6:45
  explained where it's due to her promotion where she couldn't basically resist.
• 6:51
  Being popular basically and the good
• 6:54
  witch and all of that but you know it does make it clear that she is conflicted
• 6:58
  and she does feel bad and guilty but it does sort of go against her almost Full
• 7:04
  character arc In the previous one Where she basically Became a woman She grew up You know sort of thing,
• 7:12
  I also felt that Michelle Yao's character was misused, and Oz himself.
• 7:18
  And I think Michelle Yao and Jeff Goldblum kind of got a bum rap here,
• 7:21
  because all Michelle Yao does is spread rumors.
• 7:26
  That's all she's doing. She's on a fucking mic the whole movie,
• 7:28
  and she's spreading rumors. Oh, witchy poo's so bad.
• 7:32
  It's a pothomime? Yeah. What they need, this one meant edgier,
• 7:35
  and the last one was edgy.
• 7:36
  What they needed to do here was she needed to kill people.
• 7:40
  She needed to kill somebody and blame the witch. Make the witch more of a threat
• 7:44
  Because I have not seen anything the witch has done That's threatening to these people Well,
• 7:48
  she does start the cyclone That ends up with The Wicked Witch from the East
• 7:53
  getting killed So technically that's her fault I don't mean to interrupt there
• 7:58
  But I have to say You said that in the last podcast too,
• 8:02
  She's not the Wicked Witch of the East She just Says that in a one-off sentence Because,
• 8:10
  NASA's character, her big arc She's a terrible character in this,
• 8:13
  by the way. She's terribly written. A pointless.
• 8:16
  But she's, yeah, exactly. She's the governor.
• 8:18
  And when she turns Tin Man, Bach, into a Tin Man, you, which I did like that
• 8:25
  twist, by the way, and I do like the twist of Fyro as well, but.
• 8:29
  The problem is, she just goes, she's the Wicked Witch of the West,
• 8:32
  that makes me the Wicked Witch of the East.
• 8:34
  It was just a one-off. She wasn't a witch or anything. She just put that as a title.
• 8:39
  Yeah, they are playing around a bit with the lore. Okay, they're playing around
• 8:42
  it. Okay, that's fair enough.
• 8:44
  But basically, regarding Madame Marable, I personally think the character's
• 8:50
  a complete pantomime villain, but she's also very underdeveloped.
• 8:54
  And I have to say, the acting is pretty bad by Michelle.
• 8:59
  I don't think it's bad. I think it's wooden. Yeah, maybe you're right,
• 9:05
  because there's no emotion to her.
• 9:07
  You know what I think the problem is, especially with this second film?
• 9:11
  I think there was a lot of weird shit going on behind the scenes.
• 9:16
  Obviously, there's been the weird interviews with Cynthia Erivo and Ariana Grande,
• 9:22
  but i i think there's been you
• 9:25
  know just i don't think it was
• 9:28
  a perfect shoot let's just say i don't know i don't
• 9:30
  know all the facts it seems like the this in this version at least these people
• 9:36
  weren't getting along yeah you can see you can see strangeness let's just say
• 9:42
  for whatever reasons i don't know but it comes across with the with the performances
• 9:47
  especially michelle Yael.
• 9:50
  Is that the right way to pronounce your surname? I think it's Yael.
• 9:54
  Right. Okay. Fair enough.
• 9:56
  I don't know. I just feel all the characters are,
• 10:00
  Just, they just didn't seem to want to be there. Yeah. But we'll continue with this.
• 10:06
  And I mean, it's got some really clever ideas.
• 10:10
  And I thought at the end of the last one, the monkeys went with her,
• 10:14
  but they weren't. They're still bound up.
• 10:17
  Well, they had her on the do. Yeah. They'd obviously eventually join her.
• 10:21
  But I like the fact that the two wizards are pretty much going to be She-Hulk,
• 10:32
  and Morrible and those are the two,
• 10:37
  wizards technically and the other
• 10:40
  two and then there's a scene where she gives
• 10:43
  her a bubble instead of a broom it's a bubble mobile Ariana
• 10:48
  Grande yes yeah it's a terrible scene she acts so clueless in this I'm like
• 10:52
  this is not this is completely out of character but she keeps popping the bubble
• 10:56
  popping the bubble turning it on popping the bubble and there's Michelle Yow
• 11:00
  just rolling her eyes which is pretty much all she does in the entire film is roll her eyes at,
• 11:05
  Glinda the comedy doesn't really work here later on whenever Alphaba and basically Ariana,
• 11:15
  Grande have that sort of stupid cat fight you know after they're, you know, Nessa.
• 11:22
  We'll talk about that. Let's hold that thought for a moment. We'll get to that scene.
• 11:26
  What a waste of a scene, especially when your sister just gets crushed by a
• 11:30
  fucking house. Yeah. They have a stupid flipping. No emotions.
• 11:34
  Yeah. We'll get to that. That's the one scene I can't believe they kept in.
• 11:39
  Visually, it's still the same. It's beautifully set and beautifully, you know.
• 11:45
  But we got Nisa Rose, who's the governor, which I just mentioned.
• 11:49
  And she treats Bach like a piece of shit.
• 11:52
  And then Bach decides, well, I'm leaving. But because Bach is a munchkin,
• 11:56
  munchkins and animals, and he's leaving, he says, I'm going to go.
• 12:00
  She decides to put forward this bill where animals and munchkins have to have a permit to travel.
• 12:07
  Yeah. And so Bach couldn't travel. So he's forced back into Lester Rose's being her assistant.
• 12:16
  And she's so vile about it. But then when he leaves or comes back or decides
• 12:22
  he's just going to leave me alone, I don't want to talk to you, she's crying for him.
• 12:28
  It was so, where are you here? Do you love him or not?
• 12:31
  The character motivations are a bit, I mean, obviously they can sort of play
• 12:36
  it where, yes, She didn't want to lose him so badly that she created an entire
• 12:41
  law where munchkins weren't allowed to travel freely.
• 12:45
  And it all happens very quickly. It happens within seconds, you know,
• 12:49
  where a law is passed and all this sort of thing.
• 12:53
  Obviously, it's the magical land of Oz, so things work differently.
• 12:57
  But, yeah, it's all about... Again, it goes back to everything feels really
• 13:01
  rushed and choppily edited.
• 13:04
  Yeah, there's something going on here.
• 13:06
  Yeah, I mean, in the last one, Bach fell in love with Nisha Rose.
• 13:12
  And on this one, he's back in love with Glinda and wants to go back to her.
• 13:16
  And so I think Nisha Rose gets jealous.
• 13:19
  I mean, where the fuck did this all come from? There are some,
• 13:21
  I think, overall, some good ideas on display, but they feel underdeveloped.
• 13:26
  And the end result ends up just a bit of a sort of thrown-together mess.
• 13:32
  I'll tell you what works. The Tin Man Scarecrow thing. Work.
• 13:36
  Yes, I would have loved more about that. I know. I wanted more of... The tragedy of that?
• 13:43
  Yeah, Fierro's character should have been... He just kind of disappears and
• 13:46
  shows up at the very end. But you needed more of that. Oh, totally.
• 13:51
  Because I felt sorry for Bach. Yeah.
• 13:55
  Because Nacer Rose takes the book and she just screams words like the Necronomicon.
• 14:00
  It's the Necronomicon, yeah. That's what I call it, the Necronomicon.
• 14:03
  And she says the wrong words and turns him into a Tin Man.
• 14:06
  And the whole thing, the actors don't want to be here.
• 14:10
  Complete opposite of what we got. Because what happens is Witchy Poo is there,
• 14:14
  and Asa Rose turns him into the Tin Man.
• 14:17
  She closes the door. She doesn't realize that she's done this yet.
• 14:20
  And he goes, his heart, his heart, he said his heart was shrinking. Is it okay?
• 14:24
  And she goes, well, he doesn't need his heart anymore. Well,
• 14:27
  you kind of do, you know. But she goes, yeah, he'll be okay.
• 14:31
  He just needs a rest or something. And she just witnessed her sister turn this
• 14:37
  kind, the nicest character of the group into this tin man.
• 14:43
  And there's really no.
• 14:46
  Well, okay, that's it. Oh, all right. There's no rail. It's not explored properly.
• 14:50
  I wanted these transformations of, you know, Pharaoh into the Skirt Crow and Buck into the Tin Man.
• 14:58
  They could have really explored the darkness and the tragedy of that.
• 15:01
  Yeah, they kind of skipped over.
• 15:03
  They kind of do. The rush with Buck, but it's rushed.
• 15:08
  There's a scene where they're getting to the Oz part where we got to pour water
• 15:11
  on the kill of the witch and Dorothy's going to put water on the, you know.
• 15:15
  And he's leaving the witch and the mob the
• 15:18
  mob's the mob mentality you know the frankenstein thing yeah
• 15:21
  and it works and he gives a speech it's very
• 15:24
  hateful speech and you believe it but
• 15:27
  by the time he says that it's been 40 minutes ago he turned into this thing
• 15:32
  he just disappears and it just it's just i we already know glinda we already
• 15:38
  know what you poop we already know moribald we already know Naysa Rose. We already know the Oz.
• 15:45
  Give us the 10 man story now and give us a scarecrow story.
• 15:49
  I would have been all up for that. That's what I wanted. And what pissed me
• 15:52
  off, that terrible CGI lion.
• 15:55
  Yeah that doesn't work really either it's
• 15:58
  again they could have explored that more about the cardly
• 16:01
  lion but it doesn't even make sense the lion
• 16:05
  should have been a human that was turned give us another character they could
• 16:09
  have peppered in a background or something it doesn't even really make sense
• 16:13
  because she the wicked witch was never bad to the lion in fact she was trying
• 16:18
  to save the lion so the lion is either completely thick as shit or I don't know,
• 16:25
  it's believed all these lies or whatever, but it didn't make any sense to me
• 16:28
  that the lion would hate her,
• 16:30
  and, you know it's, you know a lot of it just doesn't really make full sense
• 16:37
  whenever you examine it, but again you know, after Buck gives that speech and stuff,
• 16:42
  that's the last we see of him as far as I can remember and he just sort of disappears,
• 16:47
  also you know, the stuff where
• 16:50
  they incorporate elements of the wizard of oz with within
• 16:54
  it and not just the scarecrow and the tin man stuff but the dorothy
• 16:57
  stuff you know as we discussed in the last podcast for copyright reasons they
• 17:01
  couldn't fully show dorothy so i think that actually hurts i think they should
• 17:07
  have just set this during a different time period like before the events of
• 17:12
  the wizard of oz i just dropped the whole dorothy stuff all together.
• 17:16
  I think you wouldn't get the ending of The Witch if you did that.
• 17:21
  I didn't mind the Dorothy thing.
• 17:23
  They could have left her out. We know her story. Yes. We actually don't know
• 17:26
  the Tin Man story or the Cowdery Line story or the Scarecrow.
• 17:30
  Even in The Wizard of Oz, we don't. Yeah.
• 17:33
  In fact, all they are are manifestations in Dorothy's dream of her uncles.
• 17:39
  Yes. That's who they are. I know a lot. Yeah, it's played by the same actors. Yeah.
• 17:42
  Yeah, I believe that's how they played it. So that's what we got out of it.
• 17:46
  But I really wanted a backstory This should
• 17:49
  have been their story We know the other story And
• 17:52
  we can all wrap it up together Big battles and blah
• 17:55
  blah blah But you needed the focus on them Three characters Totally I would
• 18:01
  have loved to have seen that And you know with any sort of Dark transformation
• 18:05
  like that There always is a certain tragedy You know But here it's just skipped
• 18:11
  over And thrown together Yeah.
• 18:14
  With Linda finally talking to Oz and going, I want you to do me a favor.
• 18:20
  I want you to free the monkeys.
• 18:23
  And he does so. But in doing so, one of the monkeys, what's that kind of like?
• 18:31
  Says he's not telling you everything. Well, by pointing her to this hidden doorway.
• 18:37
  And down this door of dungeon are animals who were talking at once that are
• 18:44
  no longer talking, including Dr. Dillamond.
• 18:48
  And he's in there and all these trapped animals.
• 18:52
  And this is where you find out that she kind of puts the pieces together. She's been betrayed.
• 18:57
  And no offense, she's a fucking idiot because she should have known this from the last movie.
• 19:02
  Can I ask a question? Maybe I'm missing something, But why does the wizard have
• 19:07
  such a hatred for animals?
• 19:09
  It doesn't really, there's no real reason given for his hatred for animals.
• 19:15
  Why do any of them hate animals? Yeah, there's no real reason given for that.
• 19:20
  That would be kind of cool talking to your cat. Yeah, I know that.
• 19:26
  But there's no, I mean, the animals, yes, I know they're being used as scapegoats
• 19:30
  for, you know, problems in Oz or whatever. and there's all sorts of political
• 19:34
  allegories going on here.
• 19:36
  Yeah, we'll get that. But within this universe, there are no actual proper sort
• 19:43
  of let down reasons for the hatred of animals, unless I've missed something.
• 19:48
  There must have been a one line. I don't think there was. There had been something
• 19:53
  that I think Professor Dillamond or Dr.
• 19:55
  Dillamond says in the original, I can't remember, where because of the drought,
• 20:01
  the animals are being wiped out.
• 20:03
  And I don't think there is a drought at this point. I think it was the wizard
• 20:07
  doing it, or the Oz and what do you call it? Morabell.
• 20:11
  Well, certainly with- I can't remember. There has to be a reason why.
• 20:15
  Or Alphaba or whatever you call it, the Wicked Witch. certainly there are
• 20:18
  reasons for them to go against her because
• 20:21
  you know the fear her and her use of the magic and stuff but with
• 20:25
  the animals it just didn't add up for me oh he
• 20:28
  has a line he does have a line where it
• 20:33
  it it's pretty much pecking order yeah humans should be first when animals were
• 20:40
  becoming too intelligent so they're i think i think they're a fear the fear
• 20:44
  and he also says a line when she's freeing all these animals from the cage he
• 20:50
  says some animals can't be trusted.
• 20:53
  And so that's kind of their one-line fix part of the animals lose their speech
• 21:00
  just by being imprisoned no i think that's because of was it marble did she
• 21:07
  cast a spell or i don't know i I thought we talked about this.
• 21:10
  I thought it was the drought they talked about, that something was going on with the animals.
• 21:15
  But why would that make them lose their speech patterns or the ability to speak?
• 21:21
  That's what I'm saying. I think it's like a disease, a virus that was going
• 21:24
  through, wiping out their, which doesn't make any sense, because the professor
• 21:28
  loses his voice, as we find out, because we see him, he just goes, bah.
• 21:32
  But yet, we meet Nanny Bear, who's
• 21:35
  going, all these animals that are going underneath the yellow brick road.
• 21:38
  They can still speak yeah so that's why with the cartley land and stuff yeah
• 21:42
  it's very muddled it's like who can what the whole thing is very muddled to be honest,
• 21:50
  Um, yeah. So the animals ruined the wedding. This whole wedding scene was fucking
• 21:56
  obnoxious. Thank God the animals do show up.
• 21:59
  They concentrated way too much on this wedding. But you just,
• 22:03
  and Fiero, is that his name? Yeah, Fiero.
• 22:08
  He helps the witch escape. This is when they fuck.
• 22:12
  Yeah, pretty much. I'll tell you what. I couldn't stop laughing.
• 22:17
  This love scene, as they're singing, taking off, and taking off their clothes.
• 22:21
  Well, that's how I work. You know, I break in a song before yum yum time.
• 22:26
  Every pal. Oh dear, that sounds horrific. And so, on so many levels. I just need a partner.
• 22:38
  What do you sing? What songs do you sing? I bet you're a Michael Bolton guy. Pour some sugar on me.
• 22:44
  No, I bet you it's like pure, like sort of 80s cheese, like Michael Bolton.
• 22:51
  I will always love you by Whitney Houston. It's always a good one. Oh, yeah, yeah.
• 22:55
  How can we be lovers if we can't be friends? Wow. Wow. You know the fucking lyrics.
• 23:04
  Anyway, I don't even know if Michael Bolton sang that, but it sounds like something he would sing.
• 23:09
  It's honor that we can be friends. Yeah, I think it is. Yeah. Yeah, it is. Yeah.
• 23:14
  How do I forget something, something? Oh, dear, my ears.
• 23:21
  No, but this love scene was just, it was so uncomfortable.
• 23:25
  And nothing against the actors. It was just, it was, they're just,
• 23:28
  come on. And. It was awkward.
• 23:30
  There's no chemistry. There's no chemistry here. Yeah.
• 23:34
  And it was just, what? And also, where did this come from? You're about to marry her.
• 23:40
  And this is why I get into the time thing. I need a timestamp here because all
• 23:45
  of a sudden he's the sergeant of the military, whatever he is, the captain.
• 23:49
  And he's going to marry Glinda. And he's getting sick of all the abuse that
• 23:54
  the witchy poo is taking.
• 23:55
  And so he decides at the wedding, oh, this is it. I'm done. I'm done.
• 23:59
  And goes, sleeps with her in the tree. Oh, you might like that.
• 24:02
  You probably like the witch in the tree.
• 24:04
  I'm surprised you don't like this film. It's got a witch and a tree.
• 24:09
  And the talking animal, a goat. Yeah. There you go. This is a remake of The Witch.
• 24:17
  In a way. Yeah. No, it's all about basically the realization of the trees and
• 24:25
  the witches and the goats.
• 24:26
  But no, generally yeah, it does I don't want to keep repeating the same things but,
• 24:36
  there's a lot of underdeveloped, quite good ideas but it's to do with the realisation
• 24:41
  and the way everything is just basically it appears just thrown together,
• 24:47
  rushed There's a line after they have Yum Yum Time,
• 24:52
  It's terrible, you're beautiful and she goes You don't have to lie to me.
• 24:58
  And he says something like, uh, it's not lying. If you look at things another way.
• 25:04
  She says it later on to him, then they repeat the line later on,
• 25:08
  whenever they decide to come off to the desert.
• 25:10
  Yeah. You know what? Oh yeah. We'll get to last year. That's so fucking stupid.
• 25:15
  So Matt. Yeah. So finally.
• 25:19
  We get an upgrade where Marble is going to do something of use.
• 25:24
  Instead of being a Twitter account or a TikTok, she's going to do something
• 25:29
  of harm instead of spreading rumors on her version of social media.
• 25:34
  Yeah. So she got this storm.
• 25:37
  What's this clever way of bringing in what happened to Naysa?
• 25:42
  I guess you can say the good, the bad, whatever she was, the witch of the East.
• 25:46
  The witch of the East. Which makes no sense. But anyways, we'll go with it.
• 25:50
  And the house, that's the house. It is funny.
• 25:54
  So there's this, again, timestamp here, people.
• 25:57
  So we left, left, we left Naysa when Bach become Tin Man.
• 26:03
  And he, and he goes, I'm done. I'm leaving.
• 26:07
  He's pissed. He thinks, I get confused why he thinks the witch did this to him.
• 26:12
  Cause it wasn't the witch who did it to him.
• 26:13
  It was Naysa and he was there when she did it. So I don't get why he's confused there.
• 26:17
  But he's a fucking idiot now he's a tin man and
• 26:20
  but he leaves right that was like
• 26:23
  45 like a while ago yeah and then
• 26:26
  so the storms come and they twist you know and everyone's locking up their houses
• 26:30
  and the storm's coming the storm's coming and there's nace in a wheelchair rolling
• 26:34
  rolling alone in the yellow brick road going hey buck where are you buck where's
• 26:40
  he coming from and How long has she been fucking rolling for?
• 26:43
  I don't get where she's... And then she looks up, and I was like, right on her.
• 26:49
  It's laughable. And I was like, where does she come from?
• 26:53
  I was more pick and hold. And she's a governor. Doesn't she have transportation?
• 26:57
  I mean, yeah. I mean, there's a lot of sort of issues with the timeline in terms
• 27:04
  of, you know, things happening very quickly.
• 27:07
  Basically, again, it goes back to the Rush thing. But also I have issues with,
• 27:11
  although it happens off screen, Dorothy meeting up with the Scarecrow and the Tin Man.
• 27:18
  And the way, again, this is a different sort of universe and a different sort
• 27:22
  of realisation of the events so they are allowed a bit of sort of wiggle room
• 27:27
  but the portrayal of the Scourcrow and the Tin Man in the original 1939 does go against.
• 27:37
  Motivations for the characters here but I get that it's not a direct sequel or prequel or whatever,
• 27:45
  but it's just the way my head works, you know, where it's I want all the sort
• 27:49
  of all the I's dotted and all the T's crossed, so, but generally with this,
• 27:55
  there is a lot of things just happening that has,
• 27:58
  there's no real build up to them and so they therefore
• 28:01
  have no real emotional impact including the
• 28:05
  sister's death by the house well this
• 28:08
  is yeah so sister gets it which is fine we saw it
• 28:11
  coming i guess but she doesn't it was there was
• 28:14
  the lack of the emotion between glinda and and witchy poo it was just like oh
• 28:21
  my they start laughing at each other having a silly little fight which was dreadful
• 28:25
  by the way it was playground nonsense it was playground like like your school
• 28:29
  girls yeah and right in front of your dead sister.
• 28:32
  Well, this is the thing. A scene like that could work in terms of comedy,
• 28:37
  but not directly after what is supposed to be an emotional scene of the death
• 28:43
  of a big character and the main character's sister. So, it's yours.
• 28:49
  It makes no sense. And then the answer is, I want my sister's shoes.
• 28:53
  Yes. What? What the fuck? Who cares?
• 28:55
  No, no, no. The slippers are sort of important. I'll give them that.
• 28:59
  Because that's basically in the original that's one of the things that the Wicked
• 29:03
  Witch is pissed off with Dorothy for well that and bumping off her sister so
• 29:07
  I'll give them the slippers but generally the silly playground cat fight,
• 29:14
  is tonally.
• 29:17
  Way somewhere else compared to what is supposed to be an emotional big death scene yeah yeah,
• 29:25
  It just came and went. Yeah, exactly. I like so much of this.
• 29:30
  It would have been better if Glinda wasn't there. Or she leaves.
• 29:35
  It would have been better if...
• 29:38
  I love how Glinda just gives her friend's dead body.
• 29:43
  I love how she just gives her shoes to Dorothy. Oh, here you go.
• 29:46
  Use these. This will get you there.
• 29:48
  Oh, okay. Who does that? That's like... Imagine seeing somebody...
• 29:53
  And that would be like me seeing somebody like sort of dying in the real world
• 29:57
  and stealing their shoes and giving them you.
• 30:00
  Yeah. So she's dead. She's dead. Gives her the slippers. We see Dorothy walk
• 30:05
  off. And then she's like, okay, goodbye.
• 30:10
  Yeah. I know. You just, you pretty much just gave your. Bye-bye Dorothy. Bye-bye Toto.
• 30:15
  Yeah. And so that, what should have happened there is that they also left and
• 30:20
  then had the witch show up by herself.
• 30:23
  And seeing the body of her dead sister and leave that one-on-one time for them.
• 30:28
  That would have been better. Glinda should not have been in the seat.
• 30:31
  In other words. Well, if they had had Glinda there, yes, they could have done both, actually.
• 30:36
  Have her crying and stuff and distraught and the guilt over her sister's death.
• 30:42
  But then they could have had maybe Glinda appear and then they have a serious
• 30:46
  fight, not silly playground stuff.
• 30:49
  They actually have a serious sort of You know, argument and stuff And it's played
• 30:54
  very emotionally And dramatically heavy But instead we've got,
• 30:58
  I don't know what Primary school stuff.
• 31:02
  For laughs, when, when they take, when Ferio comes, shows up.
• 31:10
  Yes. To, and he puts the gun to Glenda and goes, let her go.
• 31:15
  And the witch goes, you know, he tells the witch to go.
• 31:19
  Here's what I don't get. So he's there and he's going to, and I'm,
• 31:24
  I'm not trying to nitpick it because I'm still kind of going with the guys. I'm kind of enjoying it.
• 31:28
  It's not shit. but for the
• 31:31
  competency we got in the last one this one's a little muddled but and the consistency
• 31:37
  i have a problem with and that is with witchy poo's powers so she's a witch
• 31:43
  she can fucking make brooms and shit fly and give monkeys wings and shit and
• 31:48
  now just i'm thinking she needs to book.
• 31:52
  In order to get her powers or something. The Grimmery. Because here she is.
• 31:56
  She's surrounded by guardsmen. We're going to take you in, witch.
• 31:59
  And Furio saves her by holding Glinda hostage, right?
• 32:04
  Yes. Why can't she just blink and turn them into monkeys or something? I don't know.
• 32:08
  Yeah, yeah. I don't get it. What powers does she have then? She has,
• 32:12
  I think, to be fair here, I think she has a certain amount of power on her own.
• 32:16
  But it's the Necronomicon, basically, as I call it, that gives her the full-on
• 32:22
  power to, you know, like, do all sorts.
• 32:26
  And I think, you know, that's what Marble's using as well.
• 32:29
  You know, she has a certain amount of power, but also the Necronomicon can make
• 32:33
  her bring cyclones and people from Kansas over to the magical land of Oz and stuff.
• 32:38
  So, yeah, there is a bit. But at the same time, there is a bit of plot convenience here.
• 32:46
  You know, and there's a nice scene that they lot, You get like a half a second
• 32:50
  shot, and it was actually kind of a creepy shot, but they don't utilize him.
• 32:54
  And it's where Furio takes a hit, and he gets arrested.
• 33:00
  Yes. And then there's a cutaway where he's being hung up like a scarecrow.
• 33:04
  Really creepy, actually, in the background.
• 33:07
  It's shadowed, and they're hanging him up, and he's just dangling there.
• 33:11
  And they cut away. We don't see him ever again.
• 33:14
  That could have been utilized. I wanted to see more of his transition. That makes sense.
• 33:18
  A hundred percent. And that's exactly what I was wanting. I get that there's
• 33:22
  only a certain amount to can show for a PG rated film, but they,
• 33:26
  I mean, I was basically looking. It doesn't have to be violent.
• 33:28
  No, no, I know, I know. But yeah, I was the same. I was wanting more.
• 33:33
  And basically with him in the field and him, you know, going through this,
• 33:37
  I would imagine painful, very painful transformation into the Skirt Crow.
• 33:42
  But instead it's sort of, we'll get a few slices then it sort of cuts away and
• 33:47
  we don't see him again for a while.
• 33:49
  There's too much to do. Too many new chains to be tied up in this film.
• 33:52
  That's what I'm saying. They should have focused on that because we got kind
• 33:55
  of the dark scene where the monkeys were in pain as they were becoming,
• 33:58
  you know, we don't get winded animals.
• 34:01
  They were in pain and screaming. Well, we couldn't have got the same thing with them.
• 34:04
  Yeah. What's the big deal? I bought the children of the corn,
• 34:07
  basically. Well, now you're being silly.
• 34:09
  Well, he was in the cornfield. I mean, you got to meet the people halfway.
• 34:12
  I mean, the first fucking 20 minutes of this movie is a song. well
• 34:16
  take that 20 fucking minutes out of them jumping around singing we
• 34:19
  already know the fucking odds and what it looks like we
• 34:22
  don't need to see this again take that 20 minutes out
• 34:25
  and add it to his journey yeah i mean that's and of course for buck and becoming
• 34:32
  the tim man as well that that to me would have been they would have been great
• 34:36
  stories i mean they are great stories but But the realisation here is it's very, very roust and weak.
• 34:45
  And that, again, I mean, I don't know. Maybe they're playing to their main audience,
• 34:51
  which would be sort of, I would imagine, kids and stuff who want to see more
• 34:56
  of basically Glinda the Wicked Witch.
• 34:59
  So, yeah, maybe they had their work cut out. But on a personal level,
• 35:03
  I wanted to see more of the tragedy of their, The transformation of Fierro and Bach.
• 35:10
  Piggyback on a comment you made on the last podcast, you made a comment about,
• 35:14
  so we, we see Dorothy, not Dorothy, we see Witchy Poo and Glinda saying goodbye to each other. Yes.
• 35:21
  She's going, this is where she's going to pretty much self-sacrifice herself for the greater good.
• 35:27
  And this is in the castle. And we see this from through the door,
• 35:32
  which I thought was clever through the door, through the, through the door,
• 35:34
  the keyhole that we see the witch melting.
• 35:38
  Now, but they do answer the question of the water. Yeah. Water doesn't hurt
• 35:41
  her. They just made it up. Yes.
• 35:44
  They just made it up to lure Dorothy up there for the water and pour water on
• 35:49
  it. It's not going to hurt her. But obviously, we know it's fake.
• 35:52
  She doesn't die. So it's a fake out.
• 35:55
  But that explains the water thing. I was wondering, what's with the water? What's the big deal?
• 35:58
  Well, the water doesn't hurt her. She just planted that seed to give everyone false hope.
• 36:06
  Yeah. Um, but anyways, when, when, when Glinda, she, she finds that green bottle
• 36:11
  and the monkey speaks good character, actually. I kind of like the monkey.
• 36:16
  Um, yeah. Yeah. I was thinking, uh, what's his name? Andy Serkis.
• 36:21
  He played God and all those Caesar. Caesar.
• 36:25
  She gives the green bottle, pretty much tells her Oz, you give this to Oz.
• 36:31
  And that's the bottle that he, he gave his mistress. Yeah. Her mother.
• 36:39
  To drink, which is pretty much Wichapu's mother. Yes. But he was never drugging her.
• 36:44
  There was no drug on that. He was just, they were just drinking on it.
• 36:47
  It's like a flask is what it is. It's a flask. There's no drugs in it.
• 36:50
  But the, but because he, she had that on her, He knows that he just killed his sister.
• 36:59
  Not really, his daughter. Yes. Yeah.
• 37:03
  I thought that was a good scene. It basically revealed what we all sort of knew, that he was the father.
• 37:07
  Yeah. And I like when she tells him that. She goes, here you go.
• 37:11
  And I like Jeff Goldblum's performance in this.
• 37:13
  I do like that. I do like the fact that he is, you can see he feels like shit.
• 37:20
  And I like the way they fade his character out by, he's looking through this,
• 37:25
  clock kind of like mechanism and we pan away from him as the mechanism closes,
• 37:31
  it's a good way of ending his character well actually for me again on a personal
• 37:36
  level I actually think the best
• 37:38
  song and dance number is the one with Jeff Goldblum you know wonderful,
• 37:43
  it's like an old jazz sort of club type number in the middle of the film yeah
• 37:49
  that was about in the middle of the film Yeah.
• 37:51
  So the one big one I had a problem with was Marble.
• 37:58
  She gets arrested. She's a dreadful character and dreadfully played,
• 38:00
  I have to say. She gets arrested.
• 38:03
  Well, no. No, no, no. We needed some action here. We needed Marble to fight the witch, right? Yep.
• 38:09
  We need something. She's basically, Marble is basically Michael Ironside,
• 38:15
  the evil henchman, right?
• 38:16
  But she has no, all she does is be bitchy on the Oz version of social media.
• 38:21
  You know, essentially, there is no real threat from her. We don't see her bumping anyone off.
• 38:27
  We do not take her seriously enough as a threat.
• 38:31
  And it's just all a bit strange, you know, and bizarre.
• 38:37
  I think it's funny where you have, she goes to the crime scene where she gets
• 38:45
  the green bottle and she has the hat and where the witch died, right?
• 38:50
  Yeah. And then he goes, oh, I love you, my friend forever.
• 38:54
  And then we cut to a burning wicker man version of her.
• 38:59
  And she's like clapping with the munchkins.
• 39:03
  Oh, ding dong. The witch is dead. I'm like, that's your friend.
• 39:06
  What the fuck are you doing here you
• 39:10
  know what the problem is I think I haven't seen the play or
• 39:13
  I haven't read the book so I haven't so I'm just basing my thoughts on what
• 39:18
  I'm seeing you know in the two films I think that they had too much to fit in
• 39:24
  with the 1939 Wizard of Oz lore and I think they had their work cut out in certain respects,
• 39:31
  again you know I would have to read the book or see the stage play at least,
• 39:37
  you know, to be completely fair.
• 39:38
  But with these film versions, I think they had their work cut out with trying
• 39:43
  to work around the Wizard of Oz lore, the 1939 Wizard of Oz lore.
• 39:49
  At the end, when it was revealed the witch isn't dead and the Scarecrow helped
• 39:53
  her. Yes, we knew that was going to happen.
• 39:55
  Yeah, I knew they were killer. And, but I was okay with that.
• 40:00
  I went with it. I mean, it'd be funny if like,
• 40:03
  She's all green, and he accepted that. He's fucking She-Hulk.
• 40:07
  He's happy with that. Yeah.
• 40:09
  But he's all straw now. She'd be like, no, fuck you, man. Fuck that.
• 40:15
  What the fuck? Yeah, complete hypocrisy.
• 40:18
  Actually, I'm begging it against straw, man. Fuck off, dipshit.
• 40:22
  When was I want to smoke? I'd actually set you on fire. What the fuck?
• 40:27
  That's an anthem I would have. That would have been a shock anthem that I would
• 40:30
  have liked. His head's in the fireplace, and she's like, ah,
• 40:33
  I'm all nice and warm. Yes.
• 40:37
  Now, at the very end, the very, very end, she's got the Grimory now, Glinda.
• 40:41
  Yes, the Necronomicon, I call it. Please call it that. And she opens,
• 40:46
  Grimory's kind of a, okay, ma'am, Grimory.
• 40:48
  Grimory, yeah, yeah. No, it's Grimory. I know, but it is a Grimory.
• 40:52
  That's essentially what a book of spells is generally known as,
• 40:56
  Grimory. So, yes. Oh, okay.
• 40:58
  I'm leaving you to know that, you freak. Well, it'll be.
• 41:03
  So and then the book opens and she
• 41:06
  looks and she sees something I can't remember what
• 41:10
  it was like a flashback or something and she smiles
• 41:13
  was that the book telling her the witch
• 41:16
  is okay I got the impression that
• 41:19
  this was basically the witch passing on her power to Glinda through the book
• 41:27
  and then Glinda then knowing that she was okay that she had done this so then
• 41:31
  therefore knowing that she was still alive and out there somewhere I could be wrong,
• 41:36
  I got the impression that this was Glinda actually being able to do real magic
• 41:41
  that the Wicked Witch had basically,
• 41:44
  passed on her powers to her and now she can, instead of being a fake sort of
• 41:50
  ur-head, bubble-head for want of a better word.
• 41:54
  Basically she can now do real magic that's been passed on to her but at the
• 41:57
  same time because she knows that it was passed on there by the Wicked Witch.
• 42:01
  The Wicked Witch is obviously alive out there somewhere.
• 42:04
  Yeah, okay. All right. It's a coming ending. Happy ending.
• 42:08
  Which I actually quite like, to be fair, you know, that sort of slight element
• 42:12
  at the end, you know, it does give a resolution for the Glinda character, and a good resolution.
• 42:19
  You know, the movie isn't terrible. I thought, when I first watched,
• 42:23
  I was a little on the edge there with it.
• 42:25
  But it's okay. It's not as good as the first one. I do like the elements with
• 42:30
  the Scarecrow and the Tin Man, what we do get of it. I'm on the board.
• 42:34
  We wanted more, but we're not. And so I'm going to base it on that.
• 42:38
  I think they could have cut some of these dance numbers and give us more of the Tin Man Scarecrow.
• 42:43
  And I felt that Maribel was misused. I felt all she was is copy and paste.
• 42:48
  She was pretty much just a gossiper.
• 42:52
  She was pretty much just a gossiper.
• 42:54
  Then I thought the Naysa character was, what the fuck are we watching?
• 42:59
  She's all over the place. Was he bipolar? What the fuck am I watching?
• 43:02
  I didn't get it. what I was getting here. Changing on a whim.
• 43:06
  And so I just wish they focused more on the key characters of the original rather
• 43:11
  than some of the other side. I think, yes, I think overall there needed to be more focus.
• 43:19
  Yeah, and there's definitely something on the set was going on because nobody's
• 43:22
  there like each other. Oh, without doubt.
• 43:24
  There was something going on. The chemistry was gone. Yeah.
• 43:29
  I'll say that. Even those weird interviews with Ariana Grande and Cynthia Erivo,
• 43:35
  you know, you just, you can tell there's something weird and not right has been
• 43:40
  going on behind the scenes.
• 43:41
  I don't know what it is fully, but you can just tell.
• 43:45
  Yeah, you know, you know. But guys, I got to wrap it up.
• 43:49
  Saying, I kind of enjoyed the series here, the little mini retrospective.
• 43:54
  It wasn't crap. It was good conversation.
• 43:57
  There's flaws. There was a lot to talk about. And that's a good thing.
• 44:00
  Yeah, all films have flaws, but yeah, to each their own.
• 44:05
  That's all I've got with this one. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Okay.
• 44:09
  Next up, we're going to be doing The Running Man, the new one.
• 44:14
  And think about revisiting the old one. I know the old one like the back of my hand, so it'd be easy.
• 44:18
  I think we should. We'll do the next Running Man's. And then we're going to
• 44:22
  hit, yes, we said we're going to do it, The Children of the Corn Retrospective.
• 44:26
  And that's going to lead up to the new Scream. Yeah, can't wait.
• 44:31
  The new issue, a special edition of PhantasmGory is out now.
• 44:35
  Trevor, I'll let you talk about that. yeah it's basically
• 44:38
  karen's favorite subject and karen's in it doctor who
• 44:41
  although it's not doctor who it's it's the daleks you know
• 44:44
  the great villains that originated in doctor who
• 44:47
  but it's basically celebrating 60 years
• 44:50
  of the daleks in the movies you know the two peter cushing doctor
• 44:54
  who and the daleks movies but we're also cover basically
• 44:58
  the daleks in all media forms which
• 45:01
  is very extensive over the resulting sort
• 45:04
  of decades right up to the modern day including on the tv
• 45:07
  show and you know you know comic strips books you know all that sort of thing
• 45:12
  yeah it's out now available throughout the world from amazon and the phantasmagoria
• 45:17
  website soon forbidden planet belfast um locally and you know it features sort
• 45:23
  of cast and writers from the tv show and
• 45:27
  plenty of other big names within the genre.
• 45:30
  So check it out. It's a big one. And Ciarán's in there, despite his sort of
• 45:35
  constant jabs at me about Doctor
• 45:37
  Who, he's actually written a piece about the Daleks. So check it out.
• 45:42
  It is funny.
• 45:45
  It's heartwarming.
• 45:47
  My piece is just wonderful reading.
• 45:51
  Epic. Yeah. It's like a paragraph.
• 45:54
  Well, it's a couple of paragraphs, yeah. It's like we'll have memories of people,
• 45:58
  of their first memories of the dialects. But yes, check it out.
• 46:03
  It's, you know, I have to say, it is very interesting for not just fans of Doctor
• 46:11
  Who and the dialects, but a bit of film history overall, and TV and cultural history.
• 46:18
  There you go. Go check it out and give my article a read. You'd be able to put
• 46:24
  a wonderful smile on your face and enjoy the rest of your day when you read
• 46:28
  the written word of Kieran.
• 46:30
  Yeah. You'll be inspired.
• 46:32
  Yeah. To put your hand on the fire.
• 46:38
  All right. We're going to wrap this one up. Thanks for joining us, and we'll chat.