Latest / The Overland Journal Podcast / Mario Donovan on Building Expedition Vehicles and the Joys of International Cuisine

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Mario Donovan on Building Expedition Vehicles and the Joys of International Cuisine · The Overland Journal Podcast

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Overland Journal podcast. I'm your
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: host Scott Brady, and I'm here with my co host
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Matt Scott. Hello, and we have a very special guest today.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: In fact, I would say one of the individuals within
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: the Overland community that was formative to its beginning.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: His name is Mario Donovan.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: He is the CEO of at Overland formerly Adventure Trailers.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: Who know that business name, Mario, thank you so much
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: for being on the podcast today.
• 0:33
  Speaker 3: It's great to be here.
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: Guys.
• 0:35
  Speaker 4: You had to come dozens of feet to get here exactly.
• 0:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it was a whole twelve minutes.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: Well that's kind of a funny part of the story too,
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: is I mean, let's go back to the beginning. We
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: were at SEMA I think it was two thousand and five,
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: maybe two thousand and four. I think it was two
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: thousand and five. I had my white tacoma with a
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: rough ten on it and about eight billion other things
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: bolted to it. You guys were at you know, Adventure
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: Trailers was the show, and you guys reached out and
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: you said, hey, we would love to just have lunch.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: I can't remember if we had lunch, or maybe we
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: had a late early dinner. We got together in a
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: hotel lobby of one of the hotels right by the
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: convention center. You guys said, first of all, like, who
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: are Like, where did you come from?
• 1:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah? Why are you stalking our website?
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: Exactly exactly, And then basically, how do we work together?
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: And that was the start of us doing projects together,
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: traveling together, you know, having again many more meals together,
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: talking about the world and culture and our joy of travel.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: And it has been such a pleasure to watch you
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: and your business grow over that period of time. So
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: it started, you know, a long time ago. We're coming
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: up on twenty years of knowing each other, which is
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: pretty amazing.
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: That is pretty amazing, And you guys have grown too,
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: and it's been fun to watch.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we've all kind of been along for holding on.
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: I guess for this, for this ride.
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: I think we've all been paddling the same canoe together.
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no doubt.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: When we look at some of the big innovations from
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: adventure trailers in at Overland, you guys were one of
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: the first to have a lightweight, long travel independent suspension
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: trailer manufactured in the United States. It was being done
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: in other countries, but you guys were certainly the first
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: to really dial that in for the North American market.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: I actually pulled your adventure trailers Chaser number one, all
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: the way up to the Arctic Ocean one of my
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: first trips.
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: That was a big help for us.
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that was epic, and it really was a game
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: changer for you to do a solo vehicle trip like that.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: That's what made it a little different. And that trailer
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: was awesome, and you guys sold squillions of those, and
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: then of course the market responded and everybody starts making trailers.
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: But the good thing is you've always been a couple
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: steps ahead.
• 2:34
  Speaker 4: That's the recurring theme I think of Mario is kind
• 2:37
  Speaker 4: of that skunk works of overlanding. You know, there's been
• 2:41
  Speaker 4: so many trends that you've kind of helped to establish.
• 2:44
  Speaker 4: I think so many within the industry really looked to
• 2:46
  Speaker 4: what you're doing. I mean, you know, with the wedge
• 2:48
  Speaker 4: campers being such a huge thing now, I mean yeah,
• 2:50
  Speaker 4: with the at Habitat and at Summit like that was
• 2:54
  Speaker 4: that was kind of genesis for that. And now it's
• 2:56
  Speaker 4: like everybody and their brothers copied it, and you know,
• 2:58
  Speaker 4: now you're doing a terra super cool.
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly the thing that you guys did really
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: well with the Wedge Camper. I mean there was a
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: flip pack before that, but they didn't take full advantage
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: of the concept by having it flip out to the back,
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: which you guys did. Actually earth Romer did that as well,
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: but just for I think they had thirteen units or
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: something like.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: It wasn't.
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, very very few units. It's kind of funny that
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: XVJP ended with unit number thirteen. I think yours came
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: off the back and created an awning. So it was
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: just and it was also much lighter and much more
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: structurally rigid, and it didn't have a lot of the
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: cracking and tortionon bar failures that the early flip pack
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: said don't forget.
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: We originally started with the JK Habitat, Yeah, which flipped forward.
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: It was pretty groundbreaking at the time.
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: There no doubt like that.
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: The timing was wrong and the market didn't take off,
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: and I think we only made thirty of those, and
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: then that's when we realized, like to.
• 3:49
  Speaker 4: Pick up the products that I want now, like I
• 3:52
  Speaker 4: want JBAT.
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: It was actually a Facebook group now for JK Habitats. Oh, interesting,
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: it could only be thirty men.
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: Well does exactly.
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: So how many of your wedge campers have you guys
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: produced so far?
• 4:07
  Speaker 3: That's a good question because there's three different models. I'm
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: sure kind of been tracking differently.
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: Hundreds of them, I would suspect.
• 4:13
  Speaker 4: I see them around.
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: And yeah, definitely over one thousand.
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: Since twenty sixteen was the very first pickup truck Habitat
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: that went on the Xoverlant. Yeah, that's right, and they're
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: still running that truck.
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's amazing.
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: Well over a thousand are out there.
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: And I think the fact that it's structural aluminum that's
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: extremely lightweight.
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: You can paint it to match the vehicle. I mean,
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: it's just.
• 4:35
  Speaker 4: It looks really really good painted.
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: If I do say, well, and you so, Matt, you've
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: got one on your Gladiator.
• 4:41
  Speaker 4: If I have the first one made for the Gladiator,
• 4:43
  Speaker 4: I really like it.
• 4:44
  Speaker 3: Knowing about your vehicle ad and how you go through them.
• 4:48
  Speaker 4: I'm about to register this car for the third time.
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: You know, that's a miracle. I know, it's incredible.
• 4:53
  Speaker 4: Every time I think about selling it, it's like I
• 4:55
  Speaker 4: just get this Mario image in my head, just like, eh,
• 5:00
  Speaker 4: I have beat the c I don't. I don't drive.
• 5:02
  Speaker 4: I don't daily drive that Gladiator, right, I mean that
• 5:04
  Speaker 4: Gladiator has almost thirty thousand miles on and that is
• 5:07
  Speaker 4: just trips. Yeah, I mean that thing's it's been airborne accidentally,
• 5:11
  Speaker 4: and it's just like it's so solid, that camper on
• 5:14
  Speaker 4: the back, and it's really warm and white inside. Like
• 5:16
  Speaker 4: that was the thing that I noticed, maybe first time.
• 5:18
  Speaker 4: We were in some campground in Mexico and there's like
• 5:20
  Speaker 4: yapping dogs outside and I opened the door and like, wow,
• 5:23
  Speaker 4: it's a lot louder outside because we have.
• 5:26
  Speaker 3: That yeah liner on the inside, plus the honeycomb composite
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: and the loss makes a huge difference.
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: Well, and from my perspective, the thing that made it
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: a game changer was the fact that up till that point,
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: if you wanted to put a camper in a Tacoma,
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: maybe you were lucky enough to get a flip pack.
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: They were hard to get. A lot of people didn't
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: know about them. They were fairly obscure product long lead time.
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: So what most people would do is they'd either go
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: with just a basic fiberglass shell and they'd sleep in
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: it on a plywood or they would try to find
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: a four wheel camper. The problem for a Tacoma owner
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: with a four wheel camper is you slide in the camper.
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: You now have no more payload. It can be you
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: and your chihuahua and that's it, like or ch whip
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: it or to whip it. Yeah, exactly, that's a very
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: small chihuahua.
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's just no payload in those trucks. When you
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: guys started producing campers that are three hundred and fifty
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: to five hundred pounds approximately.
• 6:15
  Speaker 3: Never hit five hundred pounds. Our heaviest is four hundred
• 6:17
  Speaker 3: and twenty pounds.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: Okay, So in that range that is very light, significantly
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: less than a slide in camper would be. So for
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: people who want to modify their trucks and add additional
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: components and add additional water and additional fuel and bumpers,
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: you've pretty much got to go with a wedge style
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: camper on a Tacoma.
• 6:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, either a white style or if you go with
• 6:35
  Speaker 3: the habitat, which is flip over, it's a complete game change.
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: Yeahs.
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: You're going from a five foot bed Tacoma to now
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: you have a fifteen and a half foot long tent. Yeah,
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: tripled that space.
• 6:45
  Speaker 4: If I was to do it again, I would do
• 6:46
  Speaker 4: the habitat.
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: It's different, it's different.
• 6:48
  Speaker 4: But now we have the dog. We have the large
• 6:50
  Speaker 4: greyhound that could have his own bed.
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's and you're right, and that's why you guys
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: offer three of them. So you have the wedge style,
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: you have the habitat that flips all all the way
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: up and over, and then you have your newest model,
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: which is the Atlas.
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: The Atlas after the God.
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: The guy holding up the earth, so it's it lifts
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: straight up, straight up. Yeah, which is I think another
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: very very interesting solution, and it's most appropriate for certain vehicles.
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: You know, if you've got a little bit like a
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: quad cab truck. They seem to work really well for that.
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: What have you found in so you guys have always
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: had an emphasis on lightweight and performance. What else have
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: you found now? What changes in your perspective has occurred
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: since you've been making all of these campers. What's been
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: the takeaway from that?
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: That's an interesting question and there could be a volume
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: of answers for what we have noticed is that it's
• 7:38
  Speaker 3: been this nice bridge for people between the rooftop tent
• 7:41
  Speaker 3: and the slide in camper like you pointed, and hitting
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: that sweet spot for weight to where you can still
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: have enough GVW left to carry some gear. Sure has
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: also been part of that sweet spot. But what we've
• 7:52
  Speaker 3: also noticed, because when we started out, we thought price point.
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: We want to keep this price point that is accessible
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: to the Evernet, And what we witnessed was that people
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: want every accessory available sure that we that we make
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: to go on them. So having just a base model
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: go through the shop is a rarity.
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: Interesting and was that a surprise for you in a way?
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: You were thinking that people would do more with models.
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: We thought that people would do more base model.
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: Interesting.
• 8:17
  Speaker 4: I think people in general are spending more. I mean,
• 8:20
  Speaker 4: I don't know really what has changed. If it's that
• 8:22
  Speaker 4: people have been doing the overland thing for longer, But
• 8:25
  Speaker 4: I remember when you know, there was a handful of
• 8:26
  Speaker 4: people who would have a new vehicle to go off road,
• 8:29
  Speaker 4: and now it's a handful of people that don't. Yeah,
• 8:32
  Speaker 4: you know, I think there's just a lot of money
• 8:33
  Speaker 4: in the space. Like, I don't know if people just
• 8:35
  Speaker 4: are happy to allocate more money because it's more of
• 8:38
  Speaker 4: a more of a thing.
• 8:39
  Speaker 3: I think it's also an awareness of the activity, right
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: a vehicle based remote travel. People are veering away from
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: the standard RV model or the just go to the
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: national forest and camp and standard campground. People want to
• 8:53
  Speaker 3: be away from other people. Yeah, sure, like people they
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: want to have more of a remote they want to
• 8:57
  Speaker 3: have can't do that with the more conventional options. So
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: I think that's why we're seeing more people and embrace
• 9:04
  Speaker 3: that activity.
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: Man.
• 9:05
  Speaker 3: It's quite honestly has off to you. It has a
• 9:07
  Speaker 3: lot to do with the Internet, the forums like the
• 9:10
  Speaker 3: Expedition Portal that have created that virtual community where people
• 9:14
  Speaker 3: can learn about this and then once they learn about it,
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: they're hooked.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: Sure, And I would suspect that if you go to
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: look at the cost of a slide in camper, a
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: sliding camper for a Tacoma your mid to high twenties,
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: you know, that's with the goodies on it.
• 9:29
  Speaker 3: That's a base model for a decent one.
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: It wouldn't be a tray model. It would just be
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: kind of a standard slide in. You know, it's got
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: still got the sink and stuff, but it's standard slide in.
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: Whereas a habitat for example, would be at twelve grand,
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: about half of that price.
• 9:42
  Speaker 4: It is that perfect bridge between the roof and suth and.
• 9:45
  Speaker 3: Their key differences though, are that we're very purpose built.
• 9:48
  Speaker 3: We are building for the remote traveler. We expect you
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: to drive into a tree. Yeah sure, yeah, and so
• 9:55
  Speaker 3: the product is in designed and manufacturing that way. Sure,
• 9:59
  Speaker 3: whereas that's not where you would go at the standard
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: slide in.
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 10:02
  Speaker 4: I think the slide in definitely limits you quite a
• 10:04
  Speaker 4: bit more like I've never felt limited really by my summit.
• 10:09
  Speaker 4: Like you do notice a little bit there's more weight
• 10:11
  Speaker 4: up top. We notice that, you know, that's just a
• 10:13
  Speaker 4: fact of life. It's not limiting like it's tucked in.
• 10:16
  Speaker 4: It's the width of the cab of the vehicle. It's
• 10:18
  Speaker 4: I don't know, it's it's been an interesting thing for me.
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: I think the difference between the slide in and the
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: topper is the topper is in some respects a little
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: bit like how our trailers used to be where you
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: live around them. Sure, not necessarily in them. You're really
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: only in them to sleep or shelter in extream conditions. Yeah,
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: Whereas the sliding camper tries to replicate more the mini apartment, yeah.
• 10:40
  Speaker 4: And mini sailboat inside kind of thing.
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you're more inclined to live the inside of one
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: of those than.
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: Around Yeah for sure.
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: All right, So then the next evolution, you guys you
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: worked with Dave Sozo from turn Overland to help create
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: the Aterra.
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: What inspired you guys to decide that you wanted to
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: create your own fully expedition camper.
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: That was driven by what we had seen being the
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: deficiencies and other products that were in the market. There's
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: a lot of storage shortcomings and our market, the pure overlander,
• 11:12
  Speaker 3: the aspirational trip is my job and I'm living in
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: my truck and I'm driving around the world. That's the
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: aspirational thing. The typical sliding camper really is not suitable
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: for that. The typical sliding camper is not using the
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: best available technologies to manage that oman wheel's infrastructure, and
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: they're typically pretty heavy. So focuses were on weight, quality
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: of the technology that's inside of that, and the amount
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: of storage that you have. Practical storage. Can I pack
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: clothes for four seasons? So is there enough storage to
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: do that? Have my recovery gear for when I am
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: doing fun, dangerous stuff and all the other things that
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: you need to get through. Some of the people that
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: we have built trucks like this for run the gamut.
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: We have one client, he's a remote doctor, so he's
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: out in the field. He needs tons of water, he
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: needs a safe place regardless of the weather. It has
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: all of his gear that you can still run his practice.
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: And you can't do that in a sliding camper, and
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: you can't even do that in a topper. You need
• 12:09
  Speaker 3: more complete system. So if you look at how we
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: designed the Tara and how we created the technology on
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: the inside, there are very few option boxes for you
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: to check off because we just included everything that we
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: know you're going to need for that true full time environment.
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: Again, coming back to that takeaway that you had with
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: the with the toppers, is that people tend to buy
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: them fairly well modified, I mean fairly complete. So you
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: kind of knew that going into a Terra, So that
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: was an advantage for you for sure.
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we had six years experience selling another brand, seeing
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: how people were purchasing and what they wanted from us. Sure,
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: since we also offer all the upfitment for the vehicles
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: on site, it can come to us and it's turnkey turnkey,
• 12:51
  Speaker 3: don't have to go to four different shops to get
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: stuff done.
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: Well, congratulations on all the products that you have brought
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: to market and their success in the market as well.
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: They've I've just never heard of anyone say, you know,
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: I just don't like this aty product. There may be
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: that they've got small issues here and there, like any
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: product would, but I've just never heard anybody have some
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: catastrophic failure with it. So which that's how you build them.
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: Right, We're all everybody under our roof. Isn't a fishing
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: nod All that thought process comes from the entire team,
• 13:18
  Speaker 3: and how do we get to this product? How do
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: we solve these problems and make something that we don't
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: have to apologize for. It's been a successful method.
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no question, it's been amazing to watch. Any other
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: questions that you've got on what's the.
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: Weight on the tarn?
• 13:29
  Speaker 4: What's like the published.
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: Publish weight is twelve hundred and fifty pounds. We have
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: made some generational changes. We managed to shave another seventy out.
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: Wow, that alone is exceptional.
• 13:41
  Speaker 3: It is, Yeah, it truly is.
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: It's amazing.
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: It puts it on a twenty five hundred ram easily easily.
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, with the coil sprummers.
• 13:48
  Speaker 4: Yeah, then that's the benefit. Don't tempt me.
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you just happen to have one of those hanging around, Matt.
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: It's kind of like an apartment on a buggy.
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: Could you imagine Prospector with one of those on top,
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: that'd be pretty amazing.
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: I'll have to suffice with the earth romer for now.
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, Go darn darn.
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: Stay tuned. We're kind of working on sometimes cool.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: That sounds pretty rare, So I think it would be fun, Mario,
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: because those that are listening, Mario has had an extremely
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: colorful life, and I think that that's part of the
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: joy of knowing you, Mario, and it I think it
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: explains a lot of why you are the way you
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: are and why you build things the way that you do.
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: But I just remember one of the first stories that
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: you told me was that you left Ethiopia as a
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: young man very quickly because a tank ran into your apartment.
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: So I think we start with the tank story and
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: then let's go, let's like, how did you end up
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: in Ethiopia. Let's after that, let's get into how did
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: you end up in Ethiopia. To begin with, well, the
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: tank story is kind of interesting. It already graduated from
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: high school and still hanging around in adis Ababa. During
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: that time, we had martial law, there was a revolution
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: going on. Man, there was infighting between the various groups
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: in military to grasp power from three thousand years of monarchy.
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: Or you ran from six am to six pm, that
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: means nobody out on the streets. I was living in
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: a a three story apartment building on Churchill Road in Addisoba,
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: and the bottom floor had two shops. One was a
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: tailor shop and one was a coffee shop. And as
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: you know in the Third World, not uncommon for the
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: store owner to actually be living in the store. Sure,
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: maybe it was five am, issue was definitely still curfew hours,
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: and just the whole building just shutters bom. There have
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: been a lot of gunfire in the city and rounds
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: coming through apartment windows and stuff like the straight rounds.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: So I went out to the balcony and crawled across
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: the balcony and I looked out onto the street and
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: there was at the rear end of this was a
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: tank or an armored personnel carrier sticking out of the
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: coffee shop, And what we surmised happened that day was
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: that the owners of the coffee shop were either from
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: two Gray Area or Trea, and there have been a
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: long standing fight for freedom by that province from Ethiopia,
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: so they probably were viewed as maybe instigators or part
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: of the other side, and so they basically annihilated whoever
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: was in there. And that probably was like a Sunday
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: or a Monday. By Wednesday, I had a flight out
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: at US and that was not easy to do because
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: it was hard to get a flight. There was you know,
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: as risky to get across town things like that. And
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: that was in It was February of nineteen seventy seven.
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: Wow, amazing.
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So I left there and flew from there to Aiden,
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: then to Bombay at the time, and then to Bangkok
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: and and to Manila and then finally back to the
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: US and I visited friends all along the route.
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: Oh cool school jumps. How did you end up in Ethiopia?
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: To begin with, you don't get to pick your parents.
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: My mother worked as a consultant for the United Nations.
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: She would be on loan as a publication specialist to
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: different organizations that were doing scientific research. So in one
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: case it was insect physiology, so they were studying insects
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: that carry encephalitis.
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: Malaria and other diseases. So primarily they were to locust
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: mosquitos and sexifly. And then in another case it was
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: an organization that was doing cross breeding of cattle. So
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: there's a cattle strain in Africa called the Zebu and
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: it's very disease resistance but doesn't produce a lot of
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: milk a lot of meat, and so they were trying
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: to cross breed some European breeds to produce higher yield
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: but more disease resistant cattle. So all these different types
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: of development programs. She did a stint with the Ethiopian
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: Ministry of Tourism for a while, and this was during
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: the highly Soelassie days before the revolution, helping them develop
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: publication programs for advertising tourism around the world. Sure, so,
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: just a lot of interesting organizations like that. Because she
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: was so busy, she just plunked me in a boarding
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: school and so she thought it would be cool to
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: put me in a boarding schoo where I didn't speak
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: the language. She put me into a frenchle say, so
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: from day one, it was a better learn how to
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: speak French. Get or you're going to go hungry?
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: Did you learn how to speak French?
• 17:50
  Speaker 4: Oh?
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm fluent in French. But it was interesting because
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: up to that point in my life, and that was
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: when I was ten years old when that occurred, we
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: had moved fourteen times by the time I was ten, Wow,
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: So I had become very used to this nomadic lifestyle
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: of just having a couple of suitcases and moving from
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: one place to the other. So moving to Africa was
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: like here we go again, we're moving again. But it
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: was interesting dropping into Ethiopia because keep in mind I
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: grew up in a small town that when I was
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: there was about two hundred and fifty residents. It's a
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: small town called Bellinas, California. The latest census at sixteen hundred,
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: so it's grown a bit, right, But I went from
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: two hundred and fifty people to a city, Atisoba at
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: that time had about seven hundred thousand in population. So
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: not only was it oh my god, there's a lot
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: of people here, but they all speak languages I don't
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: understand sure, and they eat food I've never seen before.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: And they eat it in ways you've never seen me.
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: Exactly right, and yeah, with your hands. I had my
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: own culture shock. It would almost be like someone coming
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: from Ethiopia coming to the US, like going into New
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: York City and going, Holy smokes, this space is huge, right,
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: So I had like the reverse experience. And then when
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: I left Ethiopia, I moved to Los Angeles and that
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: was yet again another cultural experience, no question. I remember
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: being picked up at the airport and being taken to
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: where I lived for a while in Pasadena, California, and
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: just thinking my first thoughts like, oh my god, it's
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: so far from one place to another. And literally day
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: two on the ground in Los Angeles, I went out
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: and I bought a boarding cycle. That was the first
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: thing I did well.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: And if I remember, you learned to ride a motorcycle
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: in Africa, is that right?
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: Oh?
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you got to tell that story. Didn't you like
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: steal them? Something happened you stole a MOTORCYCLI.
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: Yt, absolutely, yeah. Yeah. So at the time I was
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: living in Nairobi and we lived in a I think
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: it was a three unit flat and one of our
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: neighbors was a German and he was part of a
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: German aid organization, and he was actually teaching auto mechanics
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: at some polytechnic school at Nairobi, and he had a
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: Honda one seventy five twin in his garage that he
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: barely rode, but he was always gone. I wasn't even
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: thinking about girls at the age of fifteen or sixteen.
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: All I could think about was motorcycles. I just thought
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: they were the best, cheaper, cheaper, yeah, cheaper than girls.
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: I figured out how to how it, oh yeah. The
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: key was simple was underneath the tank. You just put
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: a little wire across it and then I would unscrew
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: the odometer. I'd look check see how much fuel was
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: in the tank, and I ride it around the neighborhood's
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: in Nairobi and then filled it back up with gas,
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: put it back in the garage, picked my little wire off,
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: and then screw the odometer cable back. And when I
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: came of age to drive about a year later, my
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: mom said, so, you know, what do you want to drive?
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: And I'd really like a motorcycle like that guy. So
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: I forget what his name was, Hans or something. She said, Oh,
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: I talked to him. He's got it for sale. So
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: I actually bought it, So I absolved myself of that
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: for sure. You know, do you need to test ride it?
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: Oh?
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: No, No, it looks great. So yeah, that was my
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: first motor So.
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: He's like, he's like, I don't know why it needs
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: new tires. He's like, I've only I only put three
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: hundred miles on it.
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: In love with motorcycles ever since that's the way you
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: can travel, that's awesome. Yeah. I was fortunate enough to
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: be able to ride around Ethiopia and Kenya on a
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: motorcycle solo. It was a great way to get out
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: into the back country, and with fuel being is as
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: expensive as it was and hard to get, it was
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: a really good way to get around.
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I suspect amazing. What question you got next? The
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: stories are so good and.
• 21:20
  Speaker 4: The stories are super great. I mean, I guess we've
• 21:22
  Speaker 4: never really talked much about, you know, your adventures in Ethiopia,
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: you know, outside about it, slah blah blah, Like, what
• 21:28
  Speaker 4: are some of the places that you would recommend that travelers.
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: Go in Ethiopia? Yeah, man, you can't go wrong. It
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: is such an interesting country geographically and culturally. Keep in
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: mind it was never colonized, so it has its unique
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: personality with a little bit of an Italian influence, because
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: the Italian's made a short attempt at colonizing and you.
• 21:47
  Speaker 4: Didn't think it had turned World War two. It was
• 21:49
  Speaker 4: like one of Mussolini's big things.
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Mussolini kind of is like, well, everybody else is
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: doing it, I should go action, that's sure, and then
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: got his butt kicked by the Ethiopians. Consequently, there's good
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: wine and good hosta in Ethiopian, but it might be spicy.
• 22:02
  Speaker 4: Okay. I've only had an Ethiopian food once and that
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: was with you. Yeah, no, no, wait, I've been to Ethiopia.
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: The airport, Oh you went to You were at the
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: Bolet airport in Areas or in Atis.
• 22:11
  Speaker 4: It was very well. They're building a new airport, so
• 22:14
  Speaker 4: you could tell it was at the last of its legs.
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: I have learned that every airport in the world is
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: perpetually under construction.
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true. Yeah, it's just them.
• 22:23
  Speaker 4: I cannot recommend eating Ethiopian food on an airplane. It
• 22:27
  Speaker 4: is quite messy.
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: Well, and why is Ethiopian food messy?
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: I remember I was going to go out to an
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: ethiop I asked you about from Ethiopian food in Las
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: Vegas and you or it was maybe in Denver and
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: you said, here's the place. You gotta go here, and
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: you're like, but here's the deal, and you talk about
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: why it's messy, and then you told me about tedge Edge,
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: So you got it. You gotta let everybody know why
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: is it messy to eat Ethiopian food?
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: And what is ditch talk food? To me?
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: Well, Ethiopian food is messy if you don't have practice.
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: So like anything, so if.
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: An American is trying to eat Ethiopia, Chicago is going
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: to be a disaster.
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: This nib on. Yeah. So Ethiopian food, the core bread
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: is called in gerra, and injera is made from a
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: fermented tough flower and so it has a kind of
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: a moist, spongy texture to it. But you tear it
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: off with your right hand, not your left hand, and
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: you use a piece of that to grab a piece
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: of meat from the stew or a potato or colored
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: greens or whatever it is, and then you plunk that
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: in your mouth and they serve all those dishes on
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: top of the injerra. So the best part of the
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: meal is actually base layer of enjera that soaked up
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: all those yummy sauces. Yeah.
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: Sure.
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: Tedge is a mead that Ethiopia, as I knew it
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: for a long time, was one of the largest producers
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: of honey in the world. Wow, and does an exported
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: drop of it because they make edge with it. So
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: tedg is this beer level and alcohol less than wine.
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: It's usually you know, eight percent.
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: It's the stuff that we had that was like homemade.
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: Yes, exactly, And it's always going to be homemade because
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: if you're buying it out of a bottle from a
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: big brewery, it's not any good. So in Ethiopia you
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: would go to someplace called a tedge bet, and a
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: dedg bet bet means house, so it's a tedge house.
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: So basically that's nomenclature for a bar, but they also
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: serve food, and every single one of those places has
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: their own unique tedge flavor. And it's because the yeasts
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: come out of the air and the yeast comes from
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: a little branch which is a relative of the bitter wish.
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: It's called geshow if you go into an Ethiopian market
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: in the US, usually it just be like a bag
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: and I'll say, sticks on it. You don't know but
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: they know they know what it is, but they just
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: call it sticks. If you're lucky, they might call it
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: ges show. But that's how they make touch. It's really simple.
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: But it's it's so complimentary to the meal because it
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: has sweetness and it helps offset that spiciness drinking and.
• 24:42
  Speaker 4: Eating together a little sour, so you kind of get
• 24:45
  Speaker 4: that sweet sour.
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: Yes, it's a fermented aspect of the of the injera.
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: Okay, So since edge is so easy to make, you
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: got to let the listener know how do you make tedge? Like,
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: what's the process?
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: You get some really good honey, Okay, honey, get a
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: bag of sticks.
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: Bag of sticks, got it? Water?
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: Maybe water patience, Oh, that's it. And then you let
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: the sugar in the honey ferment. Yeah, that's awesome.
• 25:08
  Speaker 4: I've recently learned that honey never expires.
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: This is true, and they have found honey in the pyramids.
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: You can still eat it perfectly. Edible bees are amazing, Yes,
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: like the world, let's not kill bee. Don't kill the
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: bees please. Well, that's that is so amazing. I have noticed.
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: That's one of the things I've always enjoyed in our
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: conversations is you light up about things in cultures that
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: not a lot of people think about. Like everybody wants
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: to have good coffee. You know, if you go to Turkey,
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: you're gonna have a Turkish coffee and it's going to
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: taste a certain way. What I have found with you
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: is that I'll ask you about Ethiopian coffee and you'll
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: go down to like telling me how they picked the
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: beans and like, and what the roasting process is like
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: over the fire in this and you even knew the
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: name of the pan and everything. Where did this curiosity
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: come for? For food and drink and like those nuances
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: of culture that maybe not a lot of people think about.
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: Well, first of all, and I like jimmy stuff, but
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: also food and breaking bread, having a meal together, sitting here,
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: drinking busy beverages together.
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: As overlanders do.
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: Yes, as overlanders do. But breaking bread is a very
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: social thing.
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: You eat together as a family, if you eat with friends,
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: and it is the basest form of true brotherly love.
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: If I am willing to share my bounty from my
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: farm or from my hearth with you, as the traveler
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: or the visitor, I'm expressing love to you, sharing that
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: with you. And we've taken everything else out of the equation.
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: Our religions are political, you know, thoughts or any think
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: it's about the meal. And so there's that base thing
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: about food that I love so much, and then food
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: becomes the conversation point and food is so interesting all
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: over the world. But then you also find similarities. I
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: find that part of it interesting. Like almost every culture
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: has their form of a sandwich. It's some sort of
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: a grain with a filling. Whether it's in Gera and
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: the lot that you would use and have in it,
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: or the peita bread filofa or the deep dish pizza
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: in Chicago. Yeah, there's some form of a sandwich, and
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: I find that interesting that we have these commonalities even
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: though we are so different from each other.
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: I even found a sandwich in Mexico. They just use wierta,
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: you just use Well that's different. Yeah, that's that's a
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: good example of a sandwich. I didn't think of that one,
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: but they actually have the actually have like bread sandwiches
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: in Mexico with like way too much mayo on it.
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: So it's like, I guess when you've perfected food with
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: a taco.
• 27:33
  Speaker 4: In America, we have l big mac we do have. Actually,
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: I think that we invented the Ruben sandwich. Not I
• 27:39
  Speaker 4: think we invented the Ruben sandwich.
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: The Ruben's pretty good sandwich. Yeah, that is a pretty
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: we invented that.
• 27:44
  Speaker 4: Yeah, look it up, Like, who's we I did oh
• 27:47
  Speaker 4: in the nineteen twenties?
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, I'm English jelly on her.
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: I'm actually a time traveler. I just decide to you know,
• 27:56
  Speaker 4: decided to come to that.
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: That's how you pick all these cars? So well, yeah,
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: you knew something.
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: You came back from the future with an N A
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: d A Future Cars Value Handbook.
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: That's that's like how he picks it buys cars.
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: Okay, so you end up you end up in Los Angeles,
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: and you've had all of these incredible experiences in boarding
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: schools and traveling around the world, a very dynamic mother
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: that was an intellectual and deeply engaged with the U
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: n A worldly organization. How do you think that that
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: changed you? I Mean, even when I first met you,
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: You're You're not a typical person. It's like you've had
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: You've had a lot of a lot of.
• 28:34
  Speaker 4: Very really nice way I'm saying it's a weirdo, but.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: Like somehow not weird, but somehow not weird.
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: Right to have all those really unusual experiences and upbringings
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: and not be weird, that's kind of hard to do.
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: How did you do that?
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: I mean I think like some could perceive it as
• 28:49
  Speaker 4: being weird, but it's it's I've always looked at Mario
• 28:51
  Speaker 4: as being very international, sure, you know, very international, great cultured,
• 28:55
  Speaker 4: very open to different ideas. You know, when you see
• 28:58
  Speaker 4: that in all kind of ways in Mare, I think,
• 29:00
  Speaker 4: whether that's business.
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: Personally, or how did that bring about that openness, that
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: open mindedness, that curiosity. Help us understand that process that
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: happened for you.
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: My mother had a big role in forming that thought
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: process for me. She used to drill this thing into me.
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: It's a French saying noblist obese, and it basically it means,
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: no matter what your station is in life, you never
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: look down on someone. There is always something to learn
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: from everyone. In order to do that, in order to learn,
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: you have to have an open mind. You have to
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: be willing to have your beliefs turned on their head.
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: If you think about our standard American cultures as we
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: know it, you were to go overseas, you would think
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: things are weird. Yeah, guess what, they think things are
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: weird about you too, And so when you go into
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: situations around the world like that, you are going to
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: have a much richer experience if you just let things happen.
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: I know, we talked about your silk road experiences and
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: armpit cheese and things like that. Hello, that's what the
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: world is like.
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's amazing.
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: And that experience for you was a reflection of incredible
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: generosity by those people, no question. Yeah right, regardless of
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: borders and beliefs. That happened. And you don't experience that
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: unless your open mind, and so I think if you aren't,
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: you're going to miss a lot of stuff. I think
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: also having those experiences helps develop tolerance, and with tolerance
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: comes patience and compassion, compassion and all those things that
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: make you a better human being.
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: In my opinion, maybe dampens are ego.
• 30:25
  Speaker 4: If we're lucky to light yourself these days when you travel, absolutely,
• 30:28
  Speaker 4: I mean you can. You can get off of your bed,
• 30:30
  Speaker 4: on the plane, to your car, to your hotel, to
• 30:32
  Speaker 4: your uber, to your this and miss the entire experience
• 30:36
  Speaker 4: and the point of why you went there.
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's why you're way better off hot wire in
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: the motorcycle, better adventures.
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: I think that's one of.
• 30:42
  Speaker 4: The that's one of the things that you know, attracts
• 30:44
  Speaker 4: me to traveling, you know, by motorcycle, particularly in Africa,
• 30:47
  Speaker 4: because you're just more in it.
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, motorcycling is I mean, you're totally in it, right,
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: You're feeling every temperature change, you're tasting every bug, you know,
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: and you're more physically involved when you're riding in the cycle.
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: You know, if you're if you're weaving a motorcycle through
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: a local market, you know, in East Africa, you're actively involved. Yeah,
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: you're not texting on your phone, you know what I'm saying.
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: You've got to be paying attention.
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: And I think that is a nice upside of motorcycles
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: you disconnect a little bit.
• 31:16
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah, absolutely, Yeah, motorcycles interest me so much for
• 31:19
  Speaker 4: the cultural aspect of travel. I've never to be honest,
• 31:22
  Speaker 4: I'd riding motorcycles in the US is fun for sport.
• 31:24
  Speaker 4: That's why we do like the trials and the enduro.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: Kind of stuff.
• 31:27
  Speaker 4: But yeah, lasting down nice seventy on a twelve hundred.
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: Gs to spark a lounger on wheels this.
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: Might as well be in a car.
• 31:33
  Speaker 4: But as the world emerges from COVID, you know, this
• 31:36
  Speaker 4: idea of motorcycle travel just really really kind of inspires me.
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, there's a purity to it.
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: Half the world. It's around one hundred and twenty five CC's.
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: No question you have to talk about motorcycles just a
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: little bit longer. You have had some wild motorcycles. If
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: I remember, you had something that was already fast and
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: then you like you put a turbo on it, So
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: like what happened with that?
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: There were years I think it was eighty four and
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: eighty five Yamaha made a six fifty turbo because it
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: would suck through fuel so fast when it opened up
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: on boost. The carburetors were pressurized and there was a
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: fuel pump to fill them up. Almost every motorcycle prior
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: to that had been gravity for Yeah, sure tank right,
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: it had a little Hitachi blower on it. That was fun,
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: But it's even more fun if you put two of
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: them on there and you put in a manual waistegate.
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: And it was an unfortunate time because I think we
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: had the fifty five mile an hour speed limit in
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: the US.
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: Right and that does bring up That does bring up
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: another story. You told me about something about excessive speed.
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, I don't know if you want to
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: tell that story to the listener.
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: It was an interesting ticket. So I used to work
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: at a printing plant and I was working, I think,
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: starting at six am or something like that. It was
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: on the road. It was in I think it was
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: February because I remember it was cold. It was really cold.
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: I had a new brain face mask on underneath the
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: helmet and everything. I'm going down the highway and there's
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: nobody on the highway, like at four EA. So I'm
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: cruising along. It's like seventy above above the speed limit.
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: Above this.
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: No no, no, that wasn't sent me above it at that moment.
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: But I looked in the rear view mirror and I
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: could see this one light slowly coming up on me,
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: maybe making about ten miles an hour more than I
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: was gone. And as this is getting closer, I look
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: in the rear view mirror and I'm trying to make
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: out the front lights on it. Yeah, and I'm thinking, man,
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: I wonder is that one of those new Suzuki katanas.
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: I can't quite tell right when it got into my
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: blind spot. I shifted down, two gears, clicked the waistgate,
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: opened up the throttle and hod on and the next
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: time I looked in the mirror way back there is
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: this red and blue flashing as damn. So through my
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: my thought processes like do I just keep going, No,
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: there's a highway patrol station coming up, you know, like
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: two exits down. This is not going to end well.
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: So I just killed it, pulled off to the side,
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: and the officer pulled up and he was riding Harley.
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: Well back in those days, they were all in Kawasaki's
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: and the why I didn't recognize the light pattern. So
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: he walked up to me and you know the usual
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: stupid question, you know why I pulled you over?
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, may have had something to.
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: Anyway. It was kind of funny. He said, so you
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: know how fast you're going? And I'm like, this sphenometer
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: only goes to eighty five, and I know you were
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: going well over that. I said, yeah, I'm pretty sure
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: I was. He said, okay, well eighty five we'll call
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: it good. And then the additional note was something like
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: engagement and speed with the police officers. Speed contest with
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: a police officer that was on the Oh no, yeah,
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: but fortunately back back then they didn't have like, you know,
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: these computer systems that spoke county to county and all
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: of that. So you could rack up a couple of
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: tickets in Los Angeles County in the morning, and then
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: I got a couple of tickets down in Orange County
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: or San Diego. Maybe none the wiser. Even though you
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: had like a three ticket limit for the year. It
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: took a while to catch up with you.
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you've definitely had some fun motorcycle. And what motorcycles
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: do you have right now?
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: Right now, I've got an XL six fifty, the one
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: that Expo had for a while. Still loving that bike,
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: still riding it and throwing it down every now and then.
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: And then my mistress is my ninety four Dukati Monster.
• 35:08
  Speaker 4: That is that's the first year for the Monster, right.
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: Ninety three was It is a fun bike. It's it's
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: had a lot of work done to it. It's really fast,
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: it's cool, it's so raw. I like it because there's
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: there's nothing but you controlling it. There's no abs, there's
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: no mapping, there's no selectable modes, none of that. I
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: like the rawness of coming into a corner hard and
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: fast and just knowing that's my worker. Am I not?
• 35:36
  Speaker 4: And it doesn't I probably won't know.
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: It won't matter anyways, Yeah, it won't matter you it
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: forces you to ride. Yeah, and the Excels like that too. Sure,
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: it's totally analogou, it's totally analogous. Still carb rated.
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: Not having some computer monitor that for me just completely
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: detaches me from the rest of the world. It forces
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: me to focus on just riding.
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, shut off of Yeah.
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a good disconnect.
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: Could not be more polar opposite motorcycles, but perfectly, totally perfect.
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: I didn't look ridiculous.
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: Next week, Well, so you talked about printing presses, and
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: we've got to bring this up in the podcast because
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: everybody needs to know again how material Mario was in many.
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: Things, but both of our business. Yeah, exactly.
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: We decided in two thousand and six this crazy idea
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: that we were going to start printing a magazine. So
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: we had been running Expedition Portal for a while and
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: we decided we're going to do this thing called Overland Journal. Fortunately,
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: we had Jonathan Hanson involved, incredible editor, and we had
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: Stephanie who incredible designer me. I don't know what I
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: did that was all that useful, but we needed to
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: figure out how to print this thing. And I'm like,
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: I think Mario was in printing, or maybe you were
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: still even in printing at the time, I can't remember.
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: You were maybe making a transition, and I said, we
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: want to print this magazine.
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: And what I loved about it.
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: This is one of the things that stands out of
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: my memory, is that you didn't tell me that that
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: was a bad idea. You didn't because it probably wasn't
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: such a great idea, Like you were so enthusiastic, and
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: you actually just sat down and says, well, let's figure
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: out how we're going to do it, because we knew
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: what we wanted it to look like. And there's a
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: huge gap between having a vision of what a magazine
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: is going to look like in your hands and printing it,
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: like the specification and the type of paper. And one
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: of the outcomes from it that I think I'm most
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: proud of, and it's directly as a result of your recommendation,
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: is the whiteness of the paper that we use and
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: the way that it makes the photographs look on the paper.
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: Thank you, Mario for helping us to not only specify
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: how we print it, but then you also helped us
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: eat on the printer a whole bunch when they were
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: doing stuff wrong.
• 37:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, it was a real pleasure. I seem to
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: recall that you may not have even known level of
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: my experience in the printing industry, but the magazine area
• 37:44
  Speaker 3: was my specialty and it showed. Yeah. And I remember
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: at the time you said you wanted to emulate the
• 37:49
  Speaker 3: Surfers Journal.
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: That was sort of your highwater mark. Yeah, that was
• 37:54
  Speaker 3: your benchmark. And I remember looking at it and asking you, like,
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: what do you think your publication numbers are going to be?
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: Told you like, yeah, it's the wrong machine. Yeah, we
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: repositioned a few things. You did change the size a
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: little bit, and then that got you to fit on
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: the right machine for what you were doing.
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: Yep.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: And you recommended Huntson Hudson Printing out of Utah, which
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: we still use. They've been an amazing partner and now
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: it runs on a much bigger machine. But because of
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: your help, we were able to do all that.
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: Thank you for that. Mario.
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: Just wanted to put that out there to everybody that
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: the reason why Overland Journal looks the way that it
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: does in print is in.
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: Large part because of Mario's help.
• 38:31
  Speaker 3: So you're welcome. And in case you need to know,
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: I still scrutinize every issue comes to the office with
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: my loop printer. Is still doing.
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: How they doing?
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: They're doing?
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: Just Oh, that's good.
• 38:43
  Speaker 3: I think you got them trained.
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: We've been working on them for so long. We've talked
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: about motorcycles. I think let's shift over to the fold drives.
• 38:50
  Speaker 4: How many Prospectors do you have right now?
• 38:52
  Speaker 3: Like eight, I'm down to two, just down to two,
• 38:55
  Speaker 3: trying to control myself.
• 38:57
  Speaker 4: Favorite vehicle, My favorite.
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: Vehicle, I would have to say, is Prospector Excel number
• 39:04
  Speaker 3: one that I bought from Dave Harrington.
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: That's the regular cab manual transmission.
• 39:08
  Speaker 3: Regular cab manual transmission, quil sprung in the back. That is,
• 39:13
  Speaker 3: it's a jeep on steroids. It's what every jeep wants
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: to be when it grows.
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: Totally.
• 39:19
  Speaker 4: I agree, now see what you mean.
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that truck is so capable, unstoppable. It's just so
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: much fun to drive. There's nothing like, as you know,
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: rowing your own gears. Yeah, yeah, and yeah, the motors
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: detuned because of the manual. It doesn't matter. Oh it's
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: wonderful and we that we actually use that as our
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: shop truck, probably the nicest parts get her in town.
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: But we still wheel it too well.
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: Whenever you get ready to sell that one, I still
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: regret not buying it from Dave when he called me up.
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that ain't happening.
• 39:45
  Speaker 4: Maybe you never know, just give it six have a
• 39:48
  Speaker 4: prospector for you.
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah that's right. Yeah, yeah, Matt's got a prospect right now.
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: But it won't be a six speed match.
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, it's say.
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: Prototype on the inside door jam it was.
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: It was definitely the manual that that one. Me out
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: on that one for sure.
• 40:01
  Speaker 3: I'll have to give kudos to Dave. He really inspired
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: us to take a good hard look at full sized
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: trucks when we realized the capabilities and had the opportunity
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: to first drive them in technical terrain and go oh, yeah,
• 40:16
  Speaker 3: this is it and this is where we need to
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: go for the overloaders of the world. It made a
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: shift for us at AT to start driving people in
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: that direction, particularly for the people who want to do
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: global travel.
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: Wait, is a concern and power range.
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, the full size trucks, sy.
• 40:34
  Speaker 4: And you hear this less and less where everybody used
• 40:36
  Speaker 4: to want ten years ago, seventy series, seventy series, seventy series,
• 40:40
  Speaker 4: when we actually got something better here, nobody really recognized
• 40:43
  Speaker 4: it for sure. And I think the thing with overland
• 40:46
  Speaker 4: travel too is it's not generally incredibly technical, but all
• 40:50
  Speaker 4: vehicles have become so much more capable. Yes, you know
• 40:53
  Speaker 4: Gladiators versus Prospect or Excel, right, I mean the Gladiator
• 40:57
  Speaker 4: is still a little bit more capable, a little bit
• 40:59
  Speaker 4: more yeah, but by nature of being able to fit
• 41:02
  Speaker 4: a forty inch tire on something, while it's not a
• 41:05
  Speaker 4: forty inch tire is not needed to drive around the world, Like,
• 41:08
  Speaker 4: let's just get that out of the way.
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 41:10
  Speaker 4: True, but it just changes the dynamic of the vehicle,
• 41:13
  Speaker 4: and everything on that truck can support it. You're not
• 41:17
  Speaker 4: talking about swapping axles in this and that and whatever.
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: You don't even really need to change the gears. I
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: don't think you can get it from the factory with
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: four tens or four to fifty six's or whatever.
• 41:26
  Speaker 4: Three is on the new ones, but.
• 41:27
  Speaker 3: Four ten is still an option. We're still doing.
• 41:29
  Speaker 4: It on the we're thirty five hundred yeah.
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Well we mostly deal with in the cab jess
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: order from the factory scenario. Sure, so you have a
• 41:37
  Speaker 3: lot more options when you go that right.
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: This content is brought to you by Overland Journal, our
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: premium quality print publication. The magazine was founded in two
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: thousand and six with the goal of providing independent equipment
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: and vehicle reviews along with the most stunning adventures and photography.
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: We cared deeply about the countries and cultures we visit
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: and share our experiences freely with our readers. We also
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: have zero averatorial policy and do not accept any advertiser
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: compensation for our reviews. By subscribing to Overland Journal, you're
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: helping to support our employee owned and veteran owned publication.
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: Your support also provides resources and funding for content like
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: you are watching or listening to right now. You can
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: subscribe directly on our website at Overland Journal dot com.
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: The thing that is a real game changer from technical
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: terrain perspective is the ratio of weight to square inches
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: of contact patch of rubber. That is significant.
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: It's huge.
• 42:47
  Speaker 4: They just don't ever feel overloaded in a lot of scenarios,
• 42:50
  Speaker 4: you know. I mean I've been on the trail with
• 42:52
  Speaker 4: tacomas that have like an XP camper and they just
• 42:55
  Speaker 4: struggle because nothing on that truck is meant to ever
• 42:59
  Speaker 4: do that.
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: Well, we see a lot of mid sized trucks, you know,
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: pushing the sixty five hundred, seven thousand pounds range. Right. Sure,
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: you know my truck I pulled up in here with
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: a terror on it, and it's thirty five hundred, eight
• 43:11
  Speaker 3: hundred pounds.
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: And it's on a forty one inch tall tire. Yeah,
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: so it's a.
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: Big two and a half inches wide. You know, it's tenacious.
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: It's tenacious on the roads, tenacious on the trail.
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: So what is what was your favorite vehicle of all time?
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: I mean, you had a commands you for about eighty second. Remember,
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: we're like, hey, I think you had it for at
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: least where is that eight decades?
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: Almost eight decades? I had it for twenty years, Okay.
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: I bought it in ninety two, knew off the dealer's lot.
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: I sold it twenty years later for five hundred dollars
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: more than I paid for it, But it probably had
• 43:40
  Speaker 3: like four times that much invested it for sure. Over
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: the period of time. I sold it with four hundred
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: and seventy two thousand miles on it and the original transmission.
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: That's incredible.
• 43:49
  Speaker 3: To answer your question, it's living a happy life in Maryland.
• 43:52
  Speaker 3: But that vehicle, it was an interesting test bed for
• 43:56
  Speaker 3: a t to test all of these different ideas in
• 44:00
  Speaker 3: the mid size platform, and it was not a common.
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: Truck, and so it always stood out.
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: So it always stood out and always attracted attention, and
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: everything we did to it seemed like we were always
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: the first person to do something like that. And we
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: were perfectly overweight with that truck. I think we were
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: maybe eight hundred pounds over GVW. That truck got used
• 44:18
  Speaker 3: in the Safari triathlon races and all this other stuff,
• 44:22
  Speaker 3: and it had a rough life. It had a lot
• 44:25
  Speaker 3: of repair work.
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: Well, and you just always did such a nice job
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: with it. It was always such a cool vehicle. And
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: I was actually surprised when you sold it. But I
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: can see in hindsight now that like these these rams
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: really are just a much better choice for you and
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: what you how.
• 44:37
  Speaker 4: You could travel hit stop with JK.
• 44:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah I did. We're watching the market move on the
• 44:44
  Speaker 3: JK and we had already started the conceptual stuff on
• 44:48
  Speaker 3: the JK Habitat, and we didn't have the bandwidth to
• 44:51
  Speaker 3: have all these vehicles in the stables. So it's like, well,
• 44:54
  Speaker 3: something's got to go. I didn't advertise that commandch you
• 44:57
  Speaker 3: for sale. Somebody approached me and it was kind of
• 45:01
  Speaker 3: an interesting story. The guy had two commanches. He was
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: trying to make one commanchie out of the two command
• 45:08
  Speaker 3: cheese of arts to build something like what I had.
• 45:11
  Speaker 3: And I said, well, I'll tell you this one. How
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: about that? He's like kidding, He said no, And he
• 45:15
  Speaker 3: said so I'll say yes, but I have to talk
• 45:17
  Speaker 3: it over with my wife. I said okay. He says, well,
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: we usually like to sleep on something before we make
• 45:21
  Speaker 3: a major decision. I said, okay, fine. They came back
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: about three hours later. This was at an expo and
• 45:26
  Speaker 3: Mormon Lake came back about three hours later and said, well,
• 45:29
  Speaker 3: we'll take it. So what'd you do? Take a nap?
• 45:31
  Speaker 3: And you say exactly. So that was awesome, And they're
• 45:36
  Speaker 3: still loving that truck, taking beautiful care of it. That
• 45:39
  Speaker 3: you know, it's one of those things that you have
• 45:41
  Speaker 3: that much travel invested in that vehicle and you have
• 45:44
  Speaker 3: all these memories, So it almost takes on a life
• 45:47
  Speaker 3: of its own and has a personality to it. And
• 45:49
  Speaker 3: it was nice to know that it went to a
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: couple that were really going to enjoy it and use
• 45:54
  Speaker 3: it what it was built.
• 45:55
  Speaker 4: So, I mean, I guess one of the one of
• 45:56
  Speaker 4: the themes that we've kind of been touching on with
• 45:58
  Speaker 4: the full size stuff and with your commanche is you know,
• 46:01
  Speaker 4: the gross vehicle weight and people building stuff and it's
• 46:04
  Speaker 4: just way too heavy. How do people avoid that? Like,
• 46:06
  Speaker 4: what's your advice to help people build stuff lighter?
• 46:10
  Speaker 3: My first piece of advice is make a list of
• 46:14
  Speaker 3: everything that you take on a trip and do that consistently.
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: Your list will change based on terrain or season right
• 46:20
  Speaker 3: after those trips, and this is this is when you're
• 46:22
  Speaker 3: starting out. After the end of each one of those trips,
• 46:24
  Speaker 3: debrief that list, go through it. Did I use this,
• 46:27
  Speaker 3: yes or no? If I didn't have this with me,
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: would it have been inconvenient or would it have been
• 46:31
  Speaker 3: life threatening? Think about for example, first acap, you want
• 46:34
  Speaker 3: to make sure that you have it. You don't want
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: to use it, didn't have it would be a problem.
• 46:37
  Speaker 3: So that's always going to stay on the list, but
• 46:39
  Speaker 3: that second quarkscrew maybe not right. Could you have made
• 46:42
  Speaker 3: coffee another way without parting? You feel it's a stressile maker.
• 46:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's so easy to be over.
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: Prepared exactly, and so I think that pairing back of
• 46:52
  Speaker 3: stuff is really critical. I learned that doing winter mountaineering,
• 46:56
  Speaker 3: where you had to carry a lot of equipment, so
• 46:58
  Speaker 3: you really had to think carefully about what other gear
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: did you carry and decide that you really shouldn't because
• 47:03
  Speaker 3: at that point, announce on your back was like a
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: pound on your feet. You want to make sure that
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: you have just what you need. And when you only
• 47:10
  Speaker 3: carry just what you need, you are more likely to
• 47:12
  Speaker 3: take better care of it and you're going to know
• 47:14
  Speaker 3: exactly where it is. That's a critical thing to do,
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: and that's going to help you steer away from overloading
• 47:19
  Speaker 3: your vehicle.
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.
• 47:21
  Speaker 3: With Yeah, I used to carry a lot of parts
• 47:23
  Speaker 3: with me down to Baja because I had concerned that
• 47:26
  Speaker 3: it might not be able to get the parts. So
• 47:27
  Speaker 3: I would carry like an alternator, a water pump and
• 47:30
  Speaker 3: all these other things. Stuff adds up, and this is
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: before synthetic ropes. I just to carry fifty feet at
• 47:34
  Speaker 3: three eights change sure, you know, because that was the
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: recovery thing.
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: That was your windline extension.
• 47:39
  Speaker 3: Right here exactly and a dan Forth's yeah right, aluminum
• 47:42
  Speaker 3: one but still an anchor because the pole pile didn't
• 47:46
  Speaker 3: exist and burying your spirit hire was a big pain
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: in the butt.
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: So totally do that.
• 47:50
  Speaker 3: In retrospect, I learned a lot from that and learn
• 47:53
  Speaker 3: how to pair back my gear.
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: That's great advice if.
• 47:55
  Speaker 3: You do any motorcycle travel, great training. Yeah, and I
• 47:57
  Speaker 3: don't mean like with you know, the pannier packs and
• 48:00
  Speaker 3: all that, just like basic. When I was traveling by
• 48:03
  Speaker 3: motorcycle in Africa, I did a backpack that was it.
• 48:06
  Speaker 3: So whatever my mountain gear was, it was never more
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: than my mountain gear.
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
• 48:11
  Speaker 3: So that's where people should start. But there's that temptation
• 48:13
  Speaker 3: to see what's out there and what's on Instagram and
• 48:15
  Speaker 3: all that looks cool, and it's what you affectionately call farkle. Yeah,
• 48:19
  Speaker 3: there's a lot of that. It's completely unnecessary.
• 48:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it's interesting to think of just the
• 48:24
  Speaker 4: stuff that you're bringing with you. What about for people
• 48:27
  Speaker 4: that you know, like Scott's first to Coma and my
• 48:30
  Speaker 4: first car and a lot of everybody's first thing you
• 48:32
  Speaker 4: try and bolt too much stuff on your car. It's
• 48:35
  Speaker 4: a hard thing to avoid.
• 48:36
  Speaker 3: I think it's an evolution. I think we learned things
• 48:38
  Speaker 3: from those experiences, right Scott. We started off and we
• 48:41
  Speaker 3: thought we needed stuff, and then we realized maybe I
• 48:43
  Speaker 3: can eliminate some things either through just having a new
• 48:46
  Speaker 3: skill set realizing that there's an alternative way to do things,
• 48:49
  Speaker 3: and that's how we learn how to pair back. And
• 48:52
  Speaker 3: that's why resources like the Expedition Portal kind of helped
• 48:55
  Speaker 3: guide people in that direction. Although that amount of information
• 48:57
  Speaker 3: can be overwhelming. We're to park in an empty park lot,
• 49:01
  Speaker 3: it's like where do I go? First decision fatigue? Yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 49:04
  Speaker 3: yeah exactly.
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: And it looks like because you've had so many different
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: vehicles and now you've built so many different vehicles, is
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: there is there some thread of consistency, Like if you
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: were to give someone the first three to five things
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: that they can should consider, Like they buy a new
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: Dodge Ram twenty five hundred diesel off the lot, what's
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: the first three to five things that you would recommend
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: that they do for remote travel?
• 49:28
  Speaker 3: Definitely tires and it doesn't necessarily mean that you need
• 49:31
  Speaker 3: to go with a lift right away. I mean if
• 49:32
  Speaker 3: you were going to, say, with a regular cab in
• 49:36
  Speaker 3: the shorter frame, those trucks will support thirty five inch
• 49:38
  Speaker 3: tires without a lift, and if you're going with an
• 49:40
  Speaker 3: a lift, you're only getting two inches anyway that are tires.
• 49:43
  Speaker 3: Definitely get some recovery gear. Number one piece of recovery
• 49:47
  Speaker 3: equipment as an air compressor, because if you are properly
• 49:50
  Speaker 3: airing down, you're not getting stuck, you know, much less likely,
• 49:52
  Speaker 3: you know, yeah, less risk of flats. And if you
• 49:55
  Speaker 3: do get a flat, that's probably the most common thing
• 49:57
  Speaker 3: that's going to happen on.
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: Else maybe that's it.
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: Good set of tires and an air compressor and some
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: tools and recovery kit.
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: Perfect.
• 50:04
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's just so easy to get caught up in
• 50:06
  Speaker 4: the caught up in the instagram of just like I
• 50:09
  Speaker 4: have to have this and this and this and this,
• 50:10
  Speaker 4: Like there's some ta comments I see running around town
• 50:12
  Speaker 4: and I'm like, you must have fifty different items bolted
• 50:15
  Speaker 4: to the exterior of your truck.
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 50:17
  Speaker 4: Why.
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: The first evolution of my commanche was pretty much I
• 50:21
  Speaker 3: went from a motorcycle to the comanche and So what
• 50:24
  Speaker 3: did I do in the Comanche? I threw a full
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: sized shovel in.
• 50:27
  Speaker 4: Well, a good shovel is like super handy. It's kind
• 50:30
  Speaker 4: of a good shovel gets youat of.
• 50:32
  Speaker 3: It's kind of like a towel in a Hiker's Guided Galaxy.
• 50:35
  Speaker 3: It was a towel in a bathroob break. No, I
• 50:37
  Speaker 3: think a good shovel was important for a lot of
• 50:39
  Speaker 3: different reasons, getting unstuck. Human waste, all of it, human waste,
• 50:43
  Speaker 3: fire control, it's a decent weapon, you know, all those things.
• 50:46
  Speaker 3: I just threw my backpack in the back because I
• 50:48
  Speaker 3: already had that gear. I already had a little stove,
• 50:50
  Speaker 3: and I already had a sleeping bag, and you know,
• 50:52
  Speaker 3: a tar up and a tent. You could go minimalist.
• 50:55
  Speaker 3: I've actually toyed with the idea of yeah, maybe a
• 50:58
  Speaker 3: Samurai would be a fun truck again.
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: It would be right.
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: Oh, I dream of tint top samurais I know, don't
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: find to find like a stalker tin top samurai would
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: love that.
• 51:09
  Speaker 3: I know one in town that's got a one point
• 51:11
  Speaker 3: nine VW diesel in it.
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: Oh wow, that's cool.
• 51:14
  Speaker 4: Is it like next year that we can get chimneys.
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, ninety eight, maybe nine. Yeah, it could be ninety eight.
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: It could be ninety eight now maybe later than that.
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: Two thousand, yeah, ninety eight or two thousand, something like that,
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: very soon.
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: I don't know for me, Like if I were just
• 51:26
  Speaker 3: to say, the two essential pieces of kit that don't
• 51:29
  Speaker 3: necessarily have to stay in the vehicle can go with
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: you anywhere. Swiss army knife and a golf umbrella.
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: Golf umbrella. There you go.
• 51:34
  Speaker 4: You're really big on the umbrella. Think heck.
• 51:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Everybody who's ever done the epic overland trip going
• 51:39
  Speaker 3: to Central and South America three years, I've given them
• 51:42
  Speaker 3: a golf umbrella always, inevitably somewhere throughout the trip. Send
• 51:45
  Speaker 3: me an email going, ah, you saved our bacon. It's
• 51:48
  Speaker 3: shade when you got to walk out when you're stuck
• 51:50
  Speaker 3: or broken down, or protection from the rain. Who's changed
• 51:53
  Speaker 3: to tire in a sloppy wind rainstorm? Sure right, they
• 51:57
  Speaker 3: have a big umbrella. Yeah, it's you can collect with it.
• 52:00
  Speaker 3: You should have improvised spear. It's an improvised spear and
• 52:04
  Speaker 3: it is certainly a gentleman's weapon if you're walking through
• 52:07
  Speaker 3: a town. And what's more, suave and debonair than strutting
• 52:10
  Speaker 3: with a long umbrella as you are down the street.
• 52:12
  Speaker 3: If somebody slips out of a dark alleyway and confronts you,
• 52:15
  Speaker 3: you poke them in.
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: The face with here you go umbrella versus MACHETI qu
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: asked exactly. So we've got some of our standard questions too.
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: We'd love to get your insights on because I think
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: it's going to be it's gonna be really fun to hear.
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: And this is one of my favorite questions. So I'm
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: gonna ask this one. What are some of your favorite books?
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: What are some of the most formative volumes that you've
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: enjoyed in your life that you'd like to share with
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: the audience.
• 52:39
  Speaker 3: I think one of my favorite books is a book
• 52:41
  Speaker 3: that was written by an Italian pow in Kenya, and
• 52:45
  Speaker 3: it's called No Picnic on Mount Kenya. And I think
• 52:48
  Speaker 3: at one point you guys even had it on your
• 52:50
  Speaker 3: top ten readers last some years, sure, And it's an
• 52:52
  Speaker 3: account of Italian soldiers who are held in a pow camp.
• 52:57
  Speaker 3: And this is autobiographical story, so it makes it very readable.
• 53:00
  Speaker 3: They were in a pow camp in Kenya, I think
• 53:03
  Speaker 3: somewhere around Menuki near the foothills of Mount Kenyon, and
• 53:06
  Speaker 3: Mount Kenya is a beautiful mountain. It's seventeen thousand some people.
• 53:09
  Speaker 3: They knew that if they escaped from camp, there was
• 53:12
  Speaker 3: nowhere for a white man to go run and hide.
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, you stand out, Yeah, a little bit
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: easy to find you.
• 53:18
  Speaker 3: But they were all reluctant, you know, Italian soldiers, and
• 53:22
  Speaker 3: they came from, you know, near the Italian Alps. And
• 53:24
  Speaker 3: one day this cloud bank cleared and they saw this
• 53:28
  Speaker 3: beautiful peak and there were some of them that had
• 53:31
  Speaker 3: climbed in the Alps, and they're, oh, my god, that's
• 53:33
  Speaker 3: so gorgeous. And they were bored out of their minds,
• 53:35
  Speaker 3: and so they put together clandestine lake year you know,
• 53:39
  Speaker 3: made from blankets and you know, nails and stuff, and
• 53:42
  Speaker 3: escaped from camp and climbed Mount Kenya and then came
• 53:45
  Speaker 3: back to the camp. They were severely punished for it
• 53:47
  Speaker 3: and all that, but the British were like pretty amused
• 53:49
  Speaker 3: by the story at the same time, and they also
• 53:51
  Speaker 3: didn't even believe it. So the British actually sent out
• 53:54
  Speaker 3: a party up the mountain to verify that they had
• 53:57
  Speaker 3: actually been there, and they found remnants of the things
• 53:59
  Speaker 3: that they left behind. It's a beautiful story and it's
• 54:01
  Speaker 3: really well written and it's just a great adventure.
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: Fantastic.
• 54:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah. And there's another book that comes out of also
• 54:07
  Speaker 3: out of the same area in East Africa, Kenya, Somalia area.
• 54:11
  Speaker 3: And there was a guy named Anne Eldon and the
• 54:13
  Speaker 3: book is called The Destination is the Journey of Journey's
• 54:16
  Speaker 3: Destination something like that. Before it was a cliche thing
• 54:18
  Speaker 3: to say. He only lived twenty three years. He born
• 54:21
  Speaker 3: in London, he grew up in Kenya, and he was
• 54:23
  Speaker 3: a Reuter's photojournalist. He died tragically, he was stoned to
• 54:27
  Speaker 3: death in Somalia. He left a journal behind and it
• 54:29
  Speaker 3: was this series of photographs and collages and notes and
• 54:34
  Speaker 3: things that he had written during that short life he
• 54:37
  Speaker 3: had in East Africa. And it kind of paralleled my
• 54:41
  Speaker 3: East African experiences, albeit two decades later. And it was
• 54:44
  Speaker 3: a book that my mother bought for me because she
• 54:46
  Speaker 3: thought I would enjoy it. It was published I believe
• 54:49
  Speaker 3: by his mother, Wow, because she discovered his journals well
• 54:52
  Speaker 3: he had passed away. It's a beautiful book to thumb through.
• 54:55
  Speaker 3: I highly recommend that.
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: Great suggestions.
• 54:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I have to say This is a little private
• 55:00
  Speaker 3: pleasure of mine because I was in a French leasay,
• 55:03
  Speaker 3: I ended up kind of growing up in French. If
• 55:06
  Speaker 3: you will. On the Asterix and Obelix comic book series,
• 55:09
  Speaker 3: and if you don't know that series, it's a story
• 55:12
  Speaker 3: about a small village in gaul that resisted the Roman Empire,
• 55:17
  Speaker 3: and there are all these different adventures that happen around
• 55:20
  Speaker 3: them beating up Romans all the time. They were the
• 55:23
  Speaker 3: pebble in the Romans shoe as they were trying to
• 55:25
  Speaker 3: overrun Europe, and they could never defeat this little small
• 55:28
  Speaker 3: village of the Gauls. It's a great storyline, man, awesome.
• 55:32
  Speaker 3: I still have those comic books. I still pull them out,
• 55:36
  Speaker 3: and they tell history Leopatra, Caesar and all of these
• 55:40
  Speaker 3: different periods in time, and it's you know, it's history
• 55:43
  Speaker 3: and wars and things that shape the world as it
• 55:45
  Speaker 3: is that we know today. And so when you have
• 55:48
  Speaker 3: some kind of understanding of how that's happened over a
• 55:50
  Speaker 3: course at time, it gives you a better picture of
• 55:52
  Speaker 3: why the world is.
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: Oh that's amazing, Yeah, that's amazing.
• 55:56
  Speaker 3: I still I still read.
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: Oh that's good, that's good. What questions you guys.
• 56:00
  Speaker 4: So so Sony walks into at Overland brand new Overlander.
• 56:04
  Speaker 4: What's the most important piece of advice that you can
• 56:06
  Speaker 4: give them?
• 56:07
  Speaker 3: Get a golf umbrella. Other than that, oh, other than that,
• 56:12
  Speaker 3: don't sweat the small stuff. Just get out there. I
• 56:16
  Speaker 3: think I think there are people who overthink the process.
• 56:19
  Speaker 3: We were talking about that earlier, and I think what's
• 56:22
  Speaker 3: more important than anything else, instead of reading and watching
• 56:26
  Speaker 3: other people's adventures, get out there and have your own
• 56:28
  Speaker 3: and then figure out what it is that you need
• 56:31
  Speaker 3: to enhance those adventures. We're happy to give you advice,
• 56:33
  Speaker 3: and we want to know what your adventure expectations are
• 56:37
  Speaker 3: so that we have a better chance of crafting what
• 56:39
  Speaker 3: it is that you need. And if you don't need
• 56:41
  Speaker 3: what we have or what we make, we're going to
• 56:44
  Speaker 3: tell you. We're going to tell you no, get out
• 56:46
  Speaker 3: there in your VW bug and travel a little bit. Yeah,
• 56:48
  Speaker 3: get stuck a few times, and then you'll know what
• 56:50
  Speaker 3: you really need. So that's that's what happened. If you
• 56:52
  Speaker 3: walk in at the door at at because we really care.
• 56:55
  Speaker 3: We're passionate about the lifestyle and the travel. Obviously you
• 56:58
  Speaker 3: know we've all done it. We love it. We want
• 57:00
  Speaker 3: to make sure that people don't make mistakes. If you
• 57:02
  Speaker 3: spend so much time sweating the details and pouring a
• 57:04
  Speaker 3: bunch of money into something, Jesus, that could have been
• 57:07
  Speaker 3: plane tickets, it could have been fuel, it could have
• 57:09
  Speaker 3: been food. It could have been a visa, could have
• 57:11
  Speaker 3: been a bribe of aborder.
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: It'd have been just going just just.
• 57:14
  Speaker 3: Get out there. And that's what I did. Whire a neighbors,
• 57:16
  Speaker 3: motorcyclists go foming Us.
• 57:19
  Speaker 4: What crazy stories from Mario.
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: Mario, thank you so much for being on the podcast.
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: When people want to find out more about you and
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: adventure trailers, how do they do that?
• 57:30
  Speaker 3: Well, if they want to find out about at atoverland
• 57:34
  Speaker 3: dot com, or you can find us at et overland
• 57:37
  Speaker 3: on social media. If you want to find out about me,
• 57:40
  Speaker 3: I'm on Instagram. That's the only place you're going to
• 57:43
  Speaker 3: find non overlandy stuff about me, Donovan Mario on Instagram.
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: That's great. Any other questions come to mind for you.
• 57:49
  Speaker 4: Man, Lots lots of after the podcast is over, basically
• 57:53
  Speaker 4: about food.
• 57:55
  Speaker 3: Food down that path.
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: Mario again, thank you so much for all that you
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: have done for this industry, for your passion for the
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: overland Traveler and for making great equipment and all of
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: your support to me and our team throughout the years.
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: It means so much, Mario, and we just really are
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: grateful that we had you on the podcast today.
• 58:15
  Speaker 3: Thanks for having me, guys, it's absolutely a pleasure to
• 58:18
  Speaker 3: be a part of this community.
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no doubt.
• 58:20
  Speaker 3: Let's go break some bread.
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: That sounds good, and we will talk to you next time.