Latest / Future Christian / Thriving Churches: Erin Cash & Kory Wilcoxson on What Makes Churches Thrive

Transcript

Thriving Churches: Erin Cash & Kory Wilcoxson on What Makes Churches Thrive · Future Christian

0:07
>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
0:10
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your
0:12
church in the 21st century. At the Future
0:15
Christian Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors and
0:19
other faith leaders for helpful advice and
0:21
practical wisdom to help you and your community of
0:24
faith walk boldly into the future. Whether you're
0:28
a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of
0:30
your faith community, this podcast is designed to
0:34
challenge, inspire, and equip you with the tools
0:37
you need for impactful ministry. And now for a
0:39
little bit about the guest for this episode.
0:43
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
0:46
Loren Richmond Jr. Is in conversation with the
0:49
Reverend Dr. Kory Wilcoxon and Erin Cash. Wilcoxon
0:54
has served as the Senior Pastor of Crestwood
0:57
Christian church in Lexington, Kentucky since
1:00
2009. Prior to moving to Lexington, he served for
1:04
12 years as a pastor in the Chicago and
1:07
Indianapolis areas. Wilcoxon has served in a
1:11
number of leadership positions within the Kentucky
1:13
region and Christian Church Disciples of Christ
1:16
denomination, including Moderator of the Kentucky
1:20
Regional Board Chair of the Board of Directors for
1:23
the Council on Christian Unity, now the Christian
1:26
Unity and Interfaith Ministry, and Member of the
1:29
Board of Directors for Disciples Home Missions.
1:32
Wilcoxon is also the Executive Director of
1:35
Compassionate Lexington, an organization which
1:39
seeks to promote the core value of compassion
1:42
through concrete action. Wilcoxon has two adult
1:46
daughters, Sydney and Malu. He enjoys reading,
1:49
running, and rooting on his beloved Cincinnati
1:52
Reds. Erin Cash is the Project Director for the
1:56
Thriving Congregations Project at Lexington
1:59
Theological Seminary. Prior to this role, Erin
2:03
served as Director of admissions for LTS for over
2:06
eight years. Ordained in 2006, Erin enjoys the
2:11
opportunity she has to serve in pulpit supply,
2:14
guest lectures, and as a lay reader in her own
2:17
congregation. Erin has served as Moderator for the
2:21
Christian Church in Kentucky, as co Chair of the
2:24
Local Arrangements Team for Regional assembly, and
2:27
as co Chair for the Local Arrangements Team of the
2:30
General Assembly. She also serves as Kentucky's
2:33
Representative to the General Board, chairing the
2:37
General Assembly Planning Committee there. Erin is
2:40
deeply passionate about the work of the local and
2:43
the regional church. She is co author of the book
2:47
Thriving what you can Learn from Faithful
2:50
Congregations, now available from Chalice Press.
2:54
Erin is part of a clergy couple. Her husband,
2:56
Chris, is a Senior Pastor at FCC Georgetown. She
3:00
is mom to Ella, and in her free time, Erin enjoys
3:04
baking, hiking, exploring the national parks,
3:07
baseball games, and any experience that involves a
3:10
lake, pool, or the ocean. A reminder. Before we
3:14
start today's conversation, please take a moment
3:17
to subscribe to the podcast, leave a review and
3:20
share Future Christian with a friend. Share
3:23
Connect with Loren, Martha, and Future Christian
3:26
on Instagram. Shoot us an email at. Ah, Laurenson.
3:30
>> Erin: Ah.
3:33
>> Martha Tatarnic: With comments, questions, or ideas for future
3:36
episodes. We appreciate your voice in how we
3:39
faithfully discern the future of the church.
3:50
>> Loren: Hello and welcome to the Future Christian Podcast.
3:53
I am, uh, pleased to be joined today by Kory
3:56
Wilcoxon and Erin Cash. Hello and welcome to the
3:59
show.
3:59
>> Erin: Hey. Thank you.
4:00
>> Kory: Thanks. It's great to be here.
4:02
>> Loren: Yeah. Looking forward to having this conversation.
4:05
Before we get started, Kory anything else you want
4:08
our listeners to know about you?
4:10
>> Kory: Uh, no, I don't think so. Um, just I have a couple
4:15
daughters and lots, um, that keep me busy and just
4:18
love talking about this, uh, because church is
4:21
just so much fun. So looking forward to it.
4:23
>> Loren: Awesome. Erin, how about you?
4:25
>> Erin: Not really. Um, I have a daughter who is a junior
4:29
in college and she's studying veterinary sciences
4:31
and medicine and we're dog owners and doing what
4:35
we're doing.
4:36
>> Loren: That's awesome. That's awesome.
4:38
>> Erin: Well, cool.
4:39
>> Loren: Share, if you would, kind of about your faith
4:41
background, what that looked like in the past and
4:43
what that looks like today. Erin why don't you
4:45
share first?
4:46
>> Erin: Sure. So I was raised a Southern Baptist in a time
4:50
when being Southern Baptist didn't mean what it
4:53
means now. Um, we were conservative evangelicals
4:58
for sure, but it was not the rigid fundamentalism
5:02
that it is now. And that experience gave me
5:05
several things. First of all, it gave me a deep
5:08
love for and knowledge of the scripture. Um, so
5:12
that's been really helpful for me as I've made my
5:15
switch over into the Disciples of Christ. Uh,
5:18
we've been Disciples, my husband and I, both,
5:19
since 2011. So we've been here for a little while,
5:23
have been a part of Disciples Churches ever since
5:26
then. Uh, that's really what's different for me is
5:29
that the experience of having being raised Baptist
5:32
and finding a home with the Disciples of Christ
5:35
has really given me a spiritual freedom that I
5:40
didn't have growing up as a teen and as a young
5:43
adult in the Baptist church. I made the move
5:47
ultimately when my home congregation decided that
5:51
they would fund my scholarship for seminary, but
5:54
they would not ordain me. That was difficult. That
5:58
was really hard. Um, and it was kind of the final
6:01
straw for me to know that this is really not going
6:05
to be the denomination that's going to continue to
6:07
affirm my gifts for ministry.
6:10
>> Loren: Yeah, well, welcome, I guess this is for
6:14
listeners. This is not normally like a disciple
6:16
centric podcast, but it's going to be very much
6:19
today. And I'm reminded, uh, as we're recording
6:23
this, I have an Episode coming out Tuesday, a very
6:26
disciple centric episode two. So, uh, if you're
6:30
listening to this, go back. I'll have a link in
6:32
the show notes for the past roundtable episode.
6:35
But, uh, Kory is also Disciples of Christ pastor,
6:39
if I'm correct in that. So, Kory talk about your
6:42
own background and faith journey.
6:44
>> Kory: I'll be glad to. Erin let me say that, uh, the
6:46
Baptist loss is our gain. So I'm glad to disciple.
6:50
So I did not, uh, grow up going to church at all.
6:53
I was raised by a single mom. And so we would go
6:56
to church as we were able, which kind of meant we
6:59
were creaster people. Christmas and Easter, but no
7:01
real, um, faith grounding or faith formation until
7:04
college. Um, my mom started attending more
7:07
regularly and invited me. And the Disciples Church
7:09
was the closest to our house and a bunch of our
7:11
family members went there. So I'm like, sure, why
7:13
not? Um, and really found a home there, found an
7:16
acceptance there, um, and started working with the
7:18
youth group as a chaperone. And that really kind,
7:22
um, of got me plugged in and thinking about
7:24
ministry. So, uh. But I went to seminary, um, with
7:28
really almost no, um, faith formation at all. I
7:32
mean, I thought the four Gospels were John, Paul,
7:34
George and Ringo. You know, I knew nothing about
7:36
scripture, I knew nothing about theology. And so I
7:39
kind of went in as a blank slate, which looking
7:41
back, I think really helped me because I didn't
7:44
have a faith to break down that then had to be
7:46
rebuilt. And so I went in with this curiosity, um,
7:49
and this sense of wonder. And that is really sort
7:52
of, I think, defined my ministry, uh, as I have
7:55
moved into. As I moved into congregational
7:57
ministry. Um, I've been in it. It'll be 25 years
8:00
next year, which seems a little crazy, um, and
8:04
still, uh, love that aspect of it of learning, uh,
8:08
about Scripture, learning about, um, how we live
8:10
out our faith. And so that's been a big, uh, of,
8:14
uh, my faith formation for me. My journey for me
8:17
is sort of continuing to learn what it means to be
8:20
a Christian and a minister. I didn't come in with
8:23
a concept of, oh, this is what it means to be a
8:25
minister. So I need to live up to that. It really
8:27
was like me a blank slate. And so it's been fun
8:29
sort of living into that and discovering that as I
8:32
go.
8:33
>> Loren: M. Cool, cool.
8:34
Uh, either one of you want to share any kind of
8:36
spiritual practices that you find meaningful or
8:39
that you're willing to share with our audience.
8:42
>> Erin: My spiritual practice that I find most meaningful
8:45
may not Be something that falls in the category of
8:48
traditional spiritual practices. Uh, for me, the.
8:52
The place where I feel closest to God. The way I
8:55
commune with God most easily and most frequently
8:58
is being out on a hike. My husband and I both love
9:02
national parks, um, and state parks and
9:06
opportunities to be out in the peace and in the
9:09
quiet. Uh, the world is a very noisy place. And
9:13
having those opportunities to spend time just with
9:17
him and with God. Our daughter hates the outdoors,
9:20
so she is never with us. Uh, so having the
9:23
opportunity just to be with Chris and nature and
9:27
God is really one of the most meaningful practices
9:30
for me.
9:31
>> Loren: Absolutely. Kory how about you?
9:33
>> Kory: Yeah, I don't sit still well. So, um, a lot of the
9:36
practices that are more traditional, I'm like,
9:38
Erin, I. I just. Those don't feed me. And so, um,
9:43
I try to use. When I'm exercising that really is
9:46
the time where I can just sort of focus inward,
9:48
uh, on myself. I am such an extrovert. I love
9:52
conversations. So when a church member wants to
9:54
talk about something that was in a sermon or a
9:56
spiritual question they have. It feeds me to see
10:00
God in them as we talk about those things. So, uh,
10:03
my spiritual life tends to be more kinetic in that
10:05
way. Um, and, uh, I appreciate, you know, in
10:09
seminary, the model that was given was, you know,
10:11
quiet room with dim lights and soft music and
10:14
candles. And so reading books like, you know,
10:17
prayer, uh, for those who can't sit still made me
10:20
think, oh, it's okay if my spirituality is one
10:22
that involves movement and that is relational. And
10:25
so I've really tried to lean into that.
10:28
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Well, thanks for sharing
10:29
that.
10:30
We're here to talk with Erin and Kory about their
10:33
book, Thriving Church. What can We Learn? Or what
10:37
we can learn from Faithful Congregations. It
10:40
always throws me off when the subtitle is above
10:43
the title title on the book cover. So that's part
10:45
of the problem.
10:46
>> Kory: Yeah.
10:47
>> Loren: Let me first say for our listeners, like, again,
10:51
I've kind of hinted at it here already. Erin and
10:54
Kory are both in the denomination called the
10:57
Christian Church Disciples of Christ, the mainline
10:58
Protestant denomination, which, like many mainline
11:01
Protestant denominations, has seen its fair share
11:04
of struggles and decline over recent years. So I
11:07
think, first of all, like, I was really, really
11:10
excited to see a book about thriving church within
11:15
our denomination. Uh, two, I think, you know, I
11:18
think these stories need to be told more and more.
11:21
So if anything, like, buy the book, check out the
11:24
book, just to, like, recognize, like, there are
11:27
good stories of churches that are thriving within
11:31
the Christian church steps. Christ and mainline
11:33
Proselytism writ large. But let's get into some of
11:37
the nitty gritty here.
11:39
So I think the first thing that was interesting is
11:41
y' all talk about traits of thriving
11:44
congregations. And I've already plugged the book
11:46
here. Very good. I think, if I can say so myself.
11:51
But give some of those traits that y' all
11:53
recognized, uh, Kory that are traits of thriving
11:57
congregations that you found.
11:59
>> Kory: Yeah. Uh, so, gosh, um, there's 10. And so it's
12:03
like, you know, trying, um, to pick one or two is
12:06
like trying to pick, you know, one or two of my
12:07
favorite Marvel characters. It's like almost
12:09
impossible. But, um, I was going to go.
12:11
>> Erin: With children, but you can say Marvel characters.
12:15
>> Kory: I mean, my kids, they know which one's the
12:16
favorite, so I don't have to worry about that. Um,
12:19
so the first one, uh, is rooted in Scripture. And
12:23
we were intentional about making that the first
12:25
trait in the book because we feel like that we use
12:27
the image in the conclusion of a tree. And if you
12:30
think of the roots of a tree supporting the growth
12:32
of the tree, we really feel like being rooted in
12:34
Scripture. It supports the other nine traits
12:38
because we have to ground ourselves in God's Word.
12:40
And if we do that and if we work to discern and
12:43
interpret God's Word for us, the other traits kind
12:45
of grow out of that. And then the second trait,
12:48
um, is knowing your mission and vision. And that's
12:50
sort of the trunk of the tree. If you know, you
12:53
know the direction God is growing you and pointing
12:55
you, then everything that grows from that is
12:58
connected to that mission in vision. So we were
13:01
really intentional about picking, um, those two as
13:05
the first two traits. And then.
13:06
Erin, do you want to talk about a couple of the
13:08
other traits? Because I could just keep going, so.
13:10
>> Erin: Sure, sure. So in the metaphor, we imagine the
13:14
other eight traits as branches, uh, as things that
13:18
grow out of your scripture rootedness and your
13:21
mission and vision. And so some of those include
13:24
things like thriving congregations reject fear.
13:26
Thriving congregations are collaborative. Um,
13:30
thriving congregations refuse to be stagnant, uh,
13:34
which is different from, uh, not having an anchor
13:38
in the past. We hear that a lot from folks is, you
13:41
know, how do you, how do you maintain balance with
13:44
your history? Um, especially in the part of the
13:47
country where Kory and I are, and in, especially
13:50
in disciples congregations, many of them are very,
13:53
very old. And so, you know, we're 200 years old or
13:57
220 years old. And so the question becomes, how do
14:00
you be a, uh, forward thinking congregation? How
14:03
do you refuse to be Stagnant while honoring that
14:06
significant and rich history.
14:10
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah, Good stuff.
14:11
Erin let me ask you about this, because I think
14:13
this is so important. I'm going to give a shout
14:14
out to a past guest and a UMC United Methodist
14:19
pastor and leader, Chad Brooks, who has a book,
14:22
sort of on this point, that thriving is not always
14:25
about membership size. Because I think this is,
14:27
like, the number one thing that I'm sure you hear.
14:30
I hear a lot. It's like how, you know, churches
14:33
that are small are declining, and y' all work to.
14:39
What am I trying to say? Subvert that idea, Talk
14:42
more about that.
14:43
>> Erin: Yeah, we do. Um, one of the questions that Kory
14:47
and I asked each other frequently as we were
14:50
writing the book is, can a church be both dying
14:53
and thriving at the same time? And we believe the
14:57
answer is unequivocally yes, because we define
15:01
thriving as being the church that God has called
15:04
you to be in this time and in this place.
15:07
Recognizing that everything is seasonal, including
15:12
220-year-old congregations, including brand new
15:16
congregations, including settings where the town
15:19
is dying. Um, we work with churches in that
15:21
setting, too. And knowing that you're decreasing
15:26
in number does not mean that you can't be the
15:30
church that God is calling you to be in your place
15:32
and in your time. So we really try to help
15:36
churches understand that. We talk a little bit
15:38
about what we call the three Bs of churches,
15:41
bodies, budgets, and buildings. Um, and thriving
15:44
is not about any of those.
15:47
>> Loren: Kory let's stay on that, because I think there is
15:49
this. There's this understanding of, like,
15:54
certainly maybe in the peak of Christendom. Right.
15:58
Which I think we'd all agree probably in this room
16:00
that seems like Christendom is dead, if not near
16:04
death. But it seemed like in the peak of
16:06
Christendom, there was this sense of church and
16:10
ministries would just kind of go on in perpetuity,
16:13
whereas today it seems like things very much are
16:17
seasonal, as Erin said. What is your thoughts on
16:21
trying to help churches reimagine or change their
16:27
perspective on this idea that, like, just because
16:29
Something doesn't last 200 years, let's say,
16:33
doesn't mean it's not vital, important, faithful
16:35
work?
16:36
>> Kory: Yeah, it's such a great question. And we loved
16:38
wrestling with this because so much in our world
16:40
is measurable today. I mean, I can tell you right
16:44
now the number of steps I have taken today. You
16:46
know, we get into the granular of what's
16:49
measurable. And yet the core of a church, the
16:53
mission of a church, is not something we can
16:56
measure. And so we tried to break out of that mold
16:58
of, well, you know, you define a church as, uh,
17:02
thriving by the things that are measurable, like
17:04
Erin talked about and instead talked about, um,
17:07
you know, how is the church being authentic to who
17:10
God is calling them to be. And so there are
17:13
churches in our book that they may not be here 10
17:16
years from now. I certainly pray that they are,
17:18
but they may not. But that's not going to change
17:20
the fact that they are thriving in one or more of
17:24
these traits. There's a church that's not in the
17:26
book, but one that's in a small town in Kentucky.
17:28
It's a town that's not growing. It's a church
17:30
that's shrinking pretty rapidly. Um, but every
17:33
Wednesday they serve a free breakfast to anyone in
17:36
the community who wants to show up, no questions
17:38
asked. Could be the mayor, could be someone coming
17:41
through town, could be an unhoused person. That
17:43
church may not be here in five years, but they are
17:45
absolutely thriving in who God is calling them to
17:49
be in that moment. And so our hope was to provide
17:52
inspiration to churches that were declining, that,
17:54
that we're aging, that we're struggling to say
17:56
just because those things might be going on from
17:59
the, you know, the outside view, the measurable
18:01
view, you can still thrive in who God is calling
18:04
you to be. And so those are the things that we
18:06
tried to help churches see with the, uh, with the
18:08
trades.
18:10
>> Loren: Yeah, this is good stuff. I want to ask about fear
18:14
versus mission, because I think those two things
18:16
can really go against one another. And this is
18:20
sort of a two part question. So Erin feel free to
18:22
like, respond to whichever side you want to, but I
18:25
think certainly y' all talk about like the
18:27
importance of grounding your work and mission and
18:30
knowing like who you are, what do you want to be
18:32
about, who you feel God is calling you to be
18:34
about. Maybe contrast that again. Uh, I'm thinking
18:39
of fear. How fear like distorts all that. So I'm
18:42
giving you kind of a two part question, so feel
18:44
free to respond to which part you want to, but
18:47
talk more about those.
18:51
>> Erin: That's a big, big question. Um, I do think that
18:55
churches right now live in fe, and I think that's
18:58
largely due to the measurables. Uh, we, we get so
19:03
worried about how are we going to be able to
19:04
afford to do good ministry? How are we going to be
19:08
able to have enough people to do good ministry?
19:10
How are we going to, you know, all of those things
19:13
that churches measure if we don't have you know,
19:16
you love to hear people say, if we don't have
19:18
enough people to, to help tithe, then we can't
19:20
keep the lights on and then we can't cease to be,
19:22
or we cease to be the church. That kind of fear,
19:27
uh, Kory and I maintain that kind of fear is what
19:29
holds us back. That scarcity mentality of there's
19:33
just not enough, keeps us from seeing all of the
19:36
things that we do have. Um, so when we do
19:38
workshops, when we talk about, um, this in, in
19:42
local congregations, we often start with, what do
19:45
you have that you're not considering? Um, and that
19:49
can be anything from we have this great big empty
19:52
building that we could be using for ministry space
19:55
down to, we have a church member who's on the city
19:58
council and has connections to an agency that we
20:02
could partner with once a week to help. You know,
20:05
maybe don't have enough people to provide a meal
20:07
every Wednesday, but maybe your folks can go join
20:09
the church that is offering the meal. That sort of
20:12
connection, um, and collaboration is really
20:15
helpful in congregations that are really
20:19
struggling with fear. You know, it may be that
20:22
your mission is to partner with someone else,
20:25
maybe who God's calling you to be right now.
20:28
>> Loren: Yeah. Kory let me, let me have you address the
20:31
other side of that question of like, do you think
20:33
having a strong mission can help churches overcome
20:38
that fear? Like, how, how have you seen that play
20:40
out? Like, what does that look like? You think?
20:43
>> Kory: I. Absolutely. And again, it's why we started the
20:46
book the way we did. Because as Erin was talking,
20:48
I was thinking about the story of Peter stepping
20:51
out of the boat and walking on water. Right? So,
20:54
uh, he could have been governed, um, by fear,
20:57
which would have kept him from taking that step.
20:59
We know it kicks in a little bit later, but
21:02
because he was focused on who Christ was calling
21:05
him to be and where Christ was calling him to go,
21:07
he was able to take that step without that fear.
21:11
And so I think what knowing your mission is
21:14
knowing who God is calling you to be, it gives you
21:17
sort of a singularity of focus. It gives you a,
21:20
ah, way of keeping your eyes on where you're
21:22
going. That as fear creeps into that, um, that can
21:27
be countered by faith, right? That can be
21:29
countered by trust and courage. Isn't the absence
21:32
of fear. It's being willing to live out your
21:34
mission in the presence of that fear. And so I
21:37
think knowing that mission, um, it holds that fear
21:41
at bay. And we saw that in the book with several
21:42
churches. There was a church, there's a Hispanic
21:45
church, In Florida, a new church start that has
21:47
it, its goal being an inclusive, uh, community. So
21:51
imagine a, ah, church that in Florida. Right. In
21:55
the Hispanic community that wanted to do something
21:58
that was countercultural in a lot of ways. There
22:00
were a lot of people telling them to stop before
22:02
they ever started. And yet that pastor was so
22:05
focused on what she felt like that goal was that
22:08
God was giving her, that she was able to move
22:11
forward with this new church start and really
22:13
impact people in meaningful ways. Even though all
22:17
the signs pointed towards this isn't going to
22:19
work, you're going to make people upset, all those
22:22
sorts of things. And so I think knowing who it is
22:24
that God's calling you to be and grounding that,
22:27
uh, and supporting that with scripture really can
22:29
make those fears not subside. But you kind of, you
22:33
get them in context and they become smaller when
22:35
you're instead focused on where you're going.
22:38
>> Loren: Yeah.
22:38
>> Erin: I also think, Loren, that it's important to know
22:41
or to point out that what we talk about is
22:45
rejecting a fear mentality. We don't talk about
22:48
that being unafraid. Um, but that when that fear
22:53
creeps in, that there's a conscious decision to
22:57
say we are afraid, but we are not going to operate
23:01
in that fear. Right. Being afraid is okay, but
23:05
rejecting the mentality of fear is a different
23:08
thing.
23:09
>> Kory: Yeah. See what the Baptists are missing out on.
23:11
That's great, Erin That's really good.
23:15
>> Loren: I want to dive into talking more about mission
23:18
statement because you make a couple interesting
23:20
observations. You're right that many churches
23:23
spend significant time, resources and energy on
23:25
the process, and then they kind of put it on a
23:28
shelf. Um, I'm, uh, summarizing there, so. And
23:33
then also I think this is interesting. You write
23:36
that these statements should be written in pencil,
23:39
which again, is intriguing. So, uh, feel free to
23:43
approach this how you want to. But again, I'm
23:45
thinking of the importance of how you've worked
23:47
with congregations in this tendency, because
23:49
certainly I've seen it where a church has this
23:51
vision statement, or those words can be certainly
23:54
interchanged depending on how one defines them.
23:56
Right. They have this vision statement or mission
23:58
statement, and then you look five years later,
24:03
nothing has changed. Right. So how do you balance
24:07
that? I guess this is maybe the question. How do
24:09
you balance that? Making sure that mission
24:12
statement or vision statement has traction versus
24:16
also not being too rigidly saying this is what
24:20
we're doing.
24:22
>> Kory: Yeah, I'm glad to take this one because my church
24:24
just went through this process of reimagining our
24:28
mission statement that we had put into place about
24:30
ten years ago. Um, and so the idea of it being
24:33
written in pencil, um, honors the fact that every
24:36
new person who comes into your congregation
24:38
changes that congregation. Right. By the nature of
24:40
the gifts that they bring and the. And the lived
24:42
experience and the background. And so I think a
24:45
church needs to constantly sort of be doing self
24:48
reflection and self evaluation of this was our
24:51
mission statement three years ago. Are we still
24:53
that church and is this still our mission? Um, and
24:56
so almost before the, you know, before the ink is
24:59
dry on it, we're. We're doing that sort of
25:01
evaluation of it because not only does the church
25:04
change, but, goodness gracious, the world changes.
25:06
Right? And so just because this was who we were
25:09
called to be five, three, one year ago, doesn't
25:13
mean that that's who we're called to be now based
25:16
on what's going on within the church and outside
25:18
the church. And so there needs to be some sense
25:21
of, um, authority to the statement. Right. It
25:24
can't be constantly fluid, but there does need to
25:27
be a constant revisiting of it to say, is this who
25:29
we are called to be? And that kind of goes into
25:31
the trait of a church being flexible. Um, you
25:34
know, get so locked into a mission statement that
25:37
it's like, no, we have to do this or else. But it
25:40
does need to inform what we do. So a congregation
25:42
needs to continue to keep that mission, that
25:44
vision, those core values in front of itself. Um,
25:48
whether that's, you know, reading them at a board
25:50
meeting or including them in staff evaluations,
25:53
you know, whatever it is, let those guide the
25:56
church moving forward, but make sure there's a
25:58
process on a regular basis of reevaluating that
26:00
and. And a congregation doing a self evaluation to
26:03
say, is this still who we're called to be, or do
26:05
we need to adapt that?
26:08
>> Loren: Yeah, that's good. Erin, anything else to add
26:10
there?
26:11
>> Erin: I think, uh, in short, no, Corey's right on the
26:15
money about that. Um, I do think that this is one
26:19
of those things that congregations really struggle
26:21
with because they think that the process of
26:25
crafting a mission statement and then revisiting
26:28
the mission statement are the same, and they don't
26:31
have to be if you're keeping that statement in
26:33
front of you. So if you, you know, say you're a
26:37
congregation that has a statement of values, these
26:40
are five things that we value. If you're looking
26:42
at those on a regular basis and thinking about
26:44
them and reimagining, what might it look like to
26:48
be a church with excessive joy or Whatever it is
26:51
that your congregation says they value, then, you
26:55
know, maybe you're going through a season, um, and
26:59
most churches have them of, um, deep, deep grief
27:02
for whatever reason. Well, maybe excessive joy is
27:05
not your value right this moment. Right. Maybe
27:08
it's some sort of compassionate, um, care for one
27:12
another or some. And so if you're looking at it
27:14
regularly, you don't have to go through a whole
27:17
process of discernment, but you can just say, you
27:21
know, what, this may be for a season. This piece
27:23
needs to come away and this piece needs to come
27:25
in. And it's not that it's not as massive of an
27:28
undertaking as when the statement has been sitting
27:30
on a shelf for 10 years and no one has really
27:34
worked on it.
27:35
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah.
27:36
Erin something you said brings up another question
27:39
I want to ask you. Talked about, like, of the pain
27:43
or loss or mourning. I can't remember how you said
27:45
it, uh, that churches are often going through,
27:48
experiencing, whether it's community decline or
27:51
declining attendance or just, just folks are
27:54
getting older and slowly passing away. I think
28:02
maybe because I've seen it within myself, within
28:05
congregations and communities I've worked in,
28:07
there's this need to have permission or capacity
28:13
to dream again. Certainly this ties into a
28:16
question I want to ask you about creative
28:18
thinking, but I think almost there needs to be
28:20
this, I don't know, ability, reability, if that's
28:23
the right word, to like, be. To dream again. Talk
28:26
more about that.
28:27
>> Erin: Yeah, yeah. Kory mentioned authenticity earlier.
28:30
Um, and I think churches like to. To try to be
28:35
authentic, but to not be authentic with their
28:37
grief. Um, and, you know, in the church I grew up
28:41
in, for example, we had. There was one particular
28:44
season where we had 13 significant deaths in six
28:48
months. Um, and one of those was a pastor, one of
28:52
them was a teenager, one of them was a deacon. I
28:55
mean, it was a significant season of loss. Right.
29:00
But when you came to church on Sunday morning,
29:02
everybody put on their smile and said hello and,
29:05
you know, all of those things. And we didn't talk
29:07
about it until, uh, in that tradition, it was
29:10
Memorial Day that we would remember as opposed to
29:12
All Saints Day. Um, but we didn't talk about how
29:15
difficult that six months had been until it was
29:20
time to have Memorial Day. Right. Um, and so when
29:24
congregations can't be authentic with their
29:28
sadness as much as they can with their joy and
29:31
with their ministry and their mission, then I
29:33
think there is not space for dreaming, because we
29:38
can't. It's hard to dream if you're not fully who
29:42
you are. If you can't name all of the components
29:45
of who you are. It's hard to dream, um, because
29:48
dreaming involves bringing our full selves into
29:52
the conversation and being able to say, yeah, I am
29:57
deathly afraid of letting go of our 8:30 worship
30:02
service. But what would it look like if.
30:07
>> Loren: Uh, you know, this is good stuff. This is good
30:11
practical stuff, Kory Because I think sometimes
30:13
it's just it. How do you make space for people to
30:16
name. Like Erin just said, I'm so attached to the
30:22
8:30 traditional worship style or to this ministry
30:26
or to the. I mean, uh, I love buildings, but to
30:30
this building.
30:32
>> Kory: Yeah. I mean, that's one of the threads that we
30:34
saw across the traits and across the stories we
30:37
tell in the book is the attempt to balance
30:41
honoring the past without letting go it be
30:45
shackles, you know? Right. Um, there was a church
30:47
that we talk about, um, that, um, was wanting to
30:51
do some really cool things with their kitchen, um,
30:53
and to equip it in a way that it would serve the
30:56
community. And they were going down that path and
30:58
everyone was excited about it until they got to
31:01
the softball trophy.
31:02
>> Loren: I love the story.
31:03
>> Kory: Softball trophies in the kitchen. The whole thing
31:06
ground to a halt because, like, what. What are we
31:08
going to do with those? Because we can't. We can't
31:11
just get rid of them because they're meaningful to
31:13
people. Even though when they went and asked the
31:15
softball players if they wanted them, they're
31:16
like, we don't want those old things. That's
31:17
ridiculous. But that became symbolic of, well, we
31:21
can't do this because of this thing in the past.
31:24
And so I think a thriving church really, uh, tries
31:27
to find that balance between honoring the past.
31:30
You can't just throw it out. You can't just
31:32
jettison it. Honoring the past while letting that
31:35
be a springboard to the future. You know, the
31:37
church I serve is really interesting because my
31:39
predecessor who was there 13 years, and his
31:42
predecessor, who was there 26 years, are both
31:45
still active in my congregation. Um, and so I have
31:49
living history sitting behind me in the choir on
31:52
Sunday morning and hopefully at least acting like
31:54
they're paying attention, uh, while I'm also
31:57
trying to help the church move forward. And so
31:59
it's been a really interesting exercise for me of
32:01
making sure that we honor the past without being
32:05
afraid to say that's who we were, but we are
32:08
someone different now, um, which allows us to move
32:11
forward. So I think that that is really key of
32:14
trying to figure out. And every church is going to
32:15
be different. Right. There's Not a formula for
32:17
that, but figuring out from leadership how you
32:19
make sure you're honoring that past and using that
32:22
as a way forward and not using it as a. Well, we
32:24
can't do this because then Bertha will hate that
32:28
her mom's tapestry that she sewed and hung in the
32:30
sanctuary was taken down. Bertha doesn't care.
32:32
Let's move forward.
32:34
>> Loren: Yeah. You know, you say there's no formula, but
32:37
I'm thinking there's one. Formula is not the right
32:39
word, but metric or staple. And then I think it's
32:44
time. Right. Like I'm thinking of. Y' all are
32:46
probably familiar with the work of. Can't remember
32:49
her book, but Don and Joe Weeks. Right. Uh, can't
32:52
remember what it was. Breakthrough. Yeah. And
32:56
like, I just think of like how much time, how Don
32:59
describes Joe, just like sitting with people, like
33:03
flipping through every item.
33:05
>> Kory: Mhm.
33:06
>> Loren: That's a lot of time and commitment to be like, I
33:10
see you, I care about you. I know these were
33:15
important items at one point, perhaps in the life
33:17
of the church, but also like, we gotta have make
33:21
some hard decisions and we gotta make space and I
33:24
gotta be patient. I gotta commit time to this.
33:28
>> Kory: Yeah. It was interesting in the book because we
33:31
had everything from a church that was over 200
33:33
years old to a couple new church starts. Right.
33:35
And so it looks different depending on the
33:38
congregation that you're in. But I think you're
33:40
right. I, uh, think if people who are tied to the
33:43
past feel like their stories are heard, then I
33:47
think that give. That buys a lot of relational and
33:50
ministerial capital for you to do the work moving
33:53
forward. Because you can say, hey, we used to do
33:56
this. That was fantastic. What if that now looks
33:59
like this? Or what if that charter member who was
34:02
so, you know, that charter member would love to
34:04
know that this church is doing new things in new
34:07
ways. Um, but you have to have that grounding or
34:10
else people will feel dismissed, they'll feel not
34:13
heard, and then you're not going to have that
34:14
support.
34:16
>> Erin: I'm working, Loren. I'm working with a
34:17
congregation right now that is 130 years old. They
34:21
just had their anniversary celebration a few weeks
34:24
ago and we, the week prior to doing that, they
34:29
voted unanimously, which I think is significant.
34:32
They voted unanimously essentially to demolish
34:36
their building and build a whole new structure.
34:38
Um, and the process that they are going through to
34:43
sort of put a closing pin in the physical
34:47
buildings chapter of ministry, um, and reimagining
34:51
what it looks like to be, ah, the church on that
34:54
corner for the future. Has been a story of exactly
34:59
what Corey's talking about, of, like honoring
35:01
their history. And, you know, the folks who can
35:03
remember being in that particular preschool Sunday
35:06
school room who are now 80 years old, that kind of
35:09
thing. Um, some of those people are actually the
35:12
champions for this building no longer fits who we
35:16
are, who God is calling us to be.
35:19
Um, and they are, they're in this process of
35:22
saying goodbye. I mean, it'll be five years before
35:24
they have their new building, but it's an
35:25
intentional process of how do we, um, thank this
35:29
building and say goodbye to this building as we
35:32
prepare to be a new place on this corner? I think
35:35
it's really beautiful story.
35:37
>> Loren: Yeah, great story. Um, it's funny because I was
35:39
just listening to a podcast kind of on this topic
35:42
yesterday. I had not thought about that, that
35:44
sometimes because of deferred maintenance or just
35:48
declining buildings, like the. The best thing to
35:50
do is just demolish a building and rebuild. But
35:53
it's a great example of what you say of not being
35:55
stuck or tied to the past and honoring mission.
36:00
I want to read because I think this is a fun thing
36:03
you all have in the book that oftentimes behind
36:06
all these ambitious change and remissioning
36:11
movement, there can be, as you all say, someone in
36:15
the background who's kind of, uh, not wanting to
36:18
play along. So I want to read this quote here.
36:20
Part of moving forward when that someone shows up
36:23
is figuring out which type of someone is in the
36:26
room. Is it the I know who? But I don't want to
36:29
say that someone should never have a place in the
36:31
church. That someone creates triangulation and
36:34
secrecy, the enemies of trust. So, Erin there's
36:39
more to that quote. Uh, but, uh, talk about the
36:41
importance of kind of naming who that someone is.
36:46
>> Erin: Right. So I am, um, among other things, also a
36:49
pastor's wife. And so I hear, um, this on
36:53
occasion. Um, now my pastor, my husband is very
36:57
good about keeping things confidential. Um, but
37:00
sometimes when situations have resolved, then I
37:04
will hear about it later, about now that this is
37:07
all okay. I can tell you what's been happening.
37:10
Um, and at one of the congregations he served, he
37:13
would hear this a lot from board members. Well, I
37:16
know that someone's not very happy about whatever.
37:19
And it's never someone wanted me to say thank you
37:22
for doing such a great job. Right. You never get
37:25
that. It's always when someone is thinking, that.
37:29
>> Loren: Was an excellent sermon.
37:31
>> Erin: Right? Exactly. Someone said they'd like to give
37:33
you a bonus this week. Um, but it's often what's
37:39
Happening there is. It's really the person talking
37:43
to you who has the problem and the concern. And
37:46
I'm sure Kory can talk about this too, but they
37:48
don't want to say, I have a problem with this, or
37:51
my spouse has a problem with this or whatever,
37:54
because that's too personal and too
37:57
confrontational. But the other type of someone who
38:01
is in the room is this mysterious. You know, if
38:05
you think about the softball trophies, right. We
38:07
can't get rid of the softball trophies because
38:08
someone will be. Will be upset about it, but
38:11
nobody actually knows who that someone is. Um, so
38:14
when you think about those someones, those. We're
38:18
sure somebody will be unhappy, but we don't know
38:20
who the person is. Well, that can be solved
38:23
because you just start asking questions. And
38:26
that's what that congregation with the softball
38:28
trophies did. I started asking questions, right.
38:30
They went to the softball players and said, what
38:33
do you think we should do with these trophies? And
38:35
they went to, you know, people who remembered the
38:37
games, what do you think we should do with the
38:39
trophies? And largely found out that most people
38:42
really didn't care. Um, now you will, when that
38:45
happens, you will find some. Right? So, spoiler
38:48
alert, that congregation kept a couple of trophies
38:51
and put them in there. Um, they have sort of a
38:53
history hallway of the congregation, so they kept
38:56
one or two, and they put them in that history
38:58
section. But when it's that, that triangulation,
39:04
indirect, you know, I'm unhappy with Kory but I
39:07
don't want to say I'm unhappy with Kory So I'm
39:09
going to say someone is unhappy with Kory Um,
39:12
that's just unhealthy. Boundaries of naming it.
39:15
Um, many, many a pastor will say, if you're coming
39:19
to me anonymously with a complaint, I'm not
39:23
responding to that.
39:25
>> Loren: Yeah, Kory let's talk directly about this, because
39:28
you've obviously been in this situation. So
39:31
someone comes in, it's like someone. Like, how do
39:35
you discern which type of someone it is? How do
39:38
you draw that out?
39:40
>> Kory: Uh, it almost depends on the person bringing it to
39:42
me. Right. I've been here almost 16 years, so I
39:44
kind of know. I, uh, know who the someones are,
39:47
and I know who the people are that will bring me
39:49
the someones. Uh, I learned in seminary, I was a
39:52
student minister, and I watched this really almost
39:55
take down the senior minister for whom I served.
39:59
And so, uh, I learned a lot sort of from him and
40:02
his wounds. Um, but I usually ask directly, well,
40:07
who is it that you think would be concerned about
40:10
this? And then I say, I point to my door and I'm
40:12
like, that door is always open. Anybody can come
40:15
to me at any time and bring any concerns they
40:18
have. But for now I'm not going to worry about
40:20
that. I'm going to worry about, know, focus on who
40:23
we're called to be moving forward. And again,
40:25
that's back to rejecting a fear mentality, right?
40:27
>> Loren: Mhm.
40:27
>> Kory: If people are afraid that people might be mad,
40:31
okay. You know what I think was it someone said,
40:34
if you're not making at least 10% of your
40:36
congregation mad, you're not doing your job well
40:38
as a minister, I have no problems with people
40:41
being mad at me. I think that that probably is a
40:44
sign of good ministry in that sense, that we are
40:46
challenging people, that we are working to get
40:49
them out of their comfort zone, that we are, um,
40:52
you know, doing things that are calling us forward
40:54
as a church, which may involve change or those
40:57
sorts of things. Um, and that, that's going to
40:59
make people afraid because they want to see, um,
41:02
they want to see the church that they knew. You
41:04
know, it's kind of going back to the history
41:05
thing. I had someone come to me once, an elderly
41:07
lady in a church, and she was very concerned and
41:10
anxious and she said, I didn't know any of the
41:12
people who were serving as deacons today. And I
41:15
said, said, well then let's celebrate that. Hm.
41:17
That means that there are new people in the
41:19
church. I said, but who were your favorite
41:21
deacons? Who do you remember being a deacon? And
41:23
she told me some stories. And so how do you sort
41:27
of suss out from someone what is the fear behind
41:30
the someone question? Is it them? Is it someone
41:33
else? And how can we name that fear and say that
41:38
this is a real fear, but also reframe that to help
41:41
them see that where there is fear, there is also
41:44
faith and there are also things to celebrate. So
41:46
it's sort of, it's holding those fears or those
41:51
concerns as authentic to that person, but then
41:54
trying to give them a different perspective of how
41:56
to see whatever the situation is.
41:59
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah, yeah, good stuff.
42:01
You all have talked about history and I want to
42:04
ask sort of a practical question here because I
42:07
think I've seen churches do this well and not
42:09
well, frankly. Like, how do you, you honor the
42:11
history? Like I will unnamed church. Like they had
42:16
a bunch of plaques in the sanctuary and I just, I
42:19
don't know. My opinion is like, no, I don't need,
42:21
I don't need memorial plaques lining the walls of
42:24
sanctuary. Like, how do you do that? Well. And
42:27
not.
42:28
>> Erin: Well, I'm gonna. Cory's church is one of those.
42:33
>> Kory: Wait, well. Or not. Well, which one?
42:35
>> Erin: No, no, that has a lot of. Of named plaques.
42:37
>> Kory: Yeah, we do.
42:38
>> Erin: I'm gonna let Kory address that one for you.
42:41
>> Kory: Uh, thankfully, I inherited a lot of those
42:43
plaques. I haven't been asked about whether we
42:45
should put them up or not. I think that's such a
42:48
balance to walk. Loren. You know, when you. When
42:50
you think about how you do that, I mean, Crestwood
42:52
is. Is lucky in that we just lost our last adult
42:56
charter member last year. So we had a living
42:59
history in the church for a long time. And so I
43:02
try to be really strategic about the places that
43:04
we could lift up that living history. You know,
43:07
was there a chance to have the 92 year old charter
43:10
member speak during worship about something that
43:12
happened? You know, how do you. How do you. How do
43:15
you strategically lift up and celebrate that
43:18
history, um, without giving into the well, we've
43:23
always done it that way mentality? Right. So there
43:25
were a couple ministries at Crestwood when I came
43:28
here. Realized that the best thing they needed was
43:30
a good funeral. But I needed to figure out how to
43:32
conduct that funeral in a way that created as
43:35
little disruption as possible. So I went to a
43:37
couple of those older folks and I said, I know
43:39
that the church used to do this, and they're still
43:41
doing it, but, um, what's its importance level to
43:45
you? And they were like, oh, gosh, that thing
43:47
should have died, you know, five years ago.
43:48
They're just holding onto it because that's the
43:50
way we've done it. So again, I think it's kind of
43:53
back to what Erin said. It's sitting down and
43:54
talking to people and hearing their stories and
43:56
asking them. Them why this is important to them,
44:00
um, why this part of the history matters to them,
44:02
and then finding ways to celebrate it in the
44:05
church that isn't permanent, like a plaque on a
44:09
wall of which we have many in the sanctuary for
44:12
our stained glass windows that were donated. How
44:14
do we celebrate that in a way, again, that doesn't
44:18
keep, uh, us so tied to the past that we don't
44:21
have the freedom to move forward? Um, and I really
44:24
do think it is. If the new pastor coming in or
44:27
whoever the pastor is, can celebrate that past and
44:30
lift that up appropriately and use that as a
44:33
springboard or a motivation for moving forward,
44:36
then I think you're able to strike that balance as
44:39
well as possible.
44:40
>> Loren: Yeah.
44:41
>> Erin: And believe it or not, I think it's actually
44:43
easier for really old congregations um, because we
44:47
don't. So the congregation where my husband
44:49
pastors is 209, 15 years old, something like that.
44:54
So we don't actually have any. You know, the
44:58
churches like to use that phrase. We've always
45:00
done it this way. We don't have any of those.
45:02
Right. Because when the church started, we didn't
45:04
have electricity. So, um, there are relics, there
45:11
are remnants, there are sacred traditions, and
45:14
maybe even sacred cows. But there is a difference
45:19
because, you know, Corey's. Kory has most of the
45:21
history of pastorates in his congregation with him
45:25
still. There's. There are people who remember the
45:27
founding of that congregation. And. And when
45:30
you're in a church that's 200 years old, there is
45:32
a little bit more freedom and flexibility in that
45:36
because no, uh, one remembers the days when Barton
45:40
Stone was the pastor at First Christian Church in
45:42
Georgetown.
45:45
>> Loren: There's some. That's a deep poll right here for
45:47
our listeners.
45:50
Okay, I gotta ask one more question here before
45:52
we, before we take a break. And it's probably what
45:56
I found in some ways, like, the most refreshing
45:59
thing about the book. And I suppose, um, I'm
46:02
admitting my bias here, but certainly in the
46:05
mainline Protestant tradition, as y' all talk
46:07
about in the book, there has been this like, uh, I
46:10
don't know even what the word to say, this kind of
46:11
like.
46:12
>> Erin: Like.
46:14
>> Loren: Sensitivity, like kid gloves approach to, like,
46:18
embracing the Scripture. And I think, like, all
46:21
three of us in this conversation are well educated
46:24
enough to understand that the Bible can be abused
46:28
and misinterpreted and. And certainly, uh, just,
46:34
you know, used as justification for horrific
46:36
things. Um, but y' all really make a strong case
46:39
for embracing being, quote, people of the book.
46:44
Talk more about that.
46:47
>> Erin: So confession time. Um, the ten traits began as a
46:51
list that I prepared, uh, for the board of
46:54
trustees at Lexington Theological Seminary as a
46:57
report on the thriving congregations project. On
47:00
that list was not rooted in Scripture. I had a
47:06
different trait in there. I had thriving
47:08
congregations or Cureus. Um, Kory and I have since
47:10
removed Cureus because curiosity is, um, kind of
47:14
an undercurrent for all of the traits. Um, and we
47:17
put this in actually at the notice of one of our
47:22
congregations actually in the book, um, when we
47:25
started talking about the traits and saying these
47:27
are the ones we want to use, uh, one of the
47:31
pastors said to me, there's. There's no reason
47:34
that these are scriptural. Like, this could be,
47:38
uh, 10 traits for a Fortune 500 company or any
47:41
other place. There's nothing that roots this in
47:45
being a Christian organization. And I thought, you
47:47
know, she's completely right. And so we went back
47:50
to the list revisited, started talking about it.
47:54
Um, and initially that trait was thriving.
47:56
Congregations are biblically literate. Um, and
47:59
like you said, we talked about, um, there was some
48:03
real sense of handling the scripture with kind of
48:05
kid gloves, to use your words, Loren. Um, because
48:08
some of our churches really bristled at that
48:10
language because it became, um, biblical literacy
48:14
for them became biblical inerrancy and taking the
48:19
Bible literally as opposed to literacy. And so,
48:24
um, we decided that rooted in Scripture was better
48:27
for a variety of reasons. Number one, because the
48:30
rooted imagery and that language really, um, helps
48:34
to think through what it means to be in Scripture.
48:37
But we also felt like it was significant because
48:42
congregations are able to interpret that in ways
48:46
that work in their context. Um, so being people of
48:50
the book is also contextual. Right? The story, the
48:54
scripturally rooted story that we use of the
48:57
congregation in the. In the book is a congregation
49:00
that reads and recites every single Sunday words
49:04
of Scripture. Other churches may not do it that
49:07
way. Other churches may have deep and intimate
49:11
small, um, group Bible studies or, um, all of
49:15
their mission projects are rooted in a driving
49:17
scripture, those types of things. And so. So being
49:21
people of the book really is about knowing and
49:25
understanding the words of scripture. It's not
49:28
about reading them a certain way, reading them a
49:31
specific way, reading them literally, or any uh,
49:35
of those kinds of things. It's really contextual.
49:38
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah. Great stuff here. Well, I gotta cut us
49:41
off because like I said at the top, as we're
49:43
recording this, it's Halloween. My son didn't wear
49:45
his Halloween costume, and I have to, like, like,
49:47
bring it to him at lunch. The book is thriving
49:50
church, what we can learn from faithful
49:53
Congregations. Really recommend the book. Let's
49:55
take a quick break, and we'll come back with some
49:57
closing questions.
50:02
All right, we're back with Erin Cash and Kory
50:05
Wilcoxon. Thank you so much for your conversation.
50:08
Again, I wish we had more time because a lot of
50:11
great stuff to discuss here, but, uh, going to
50:13
meet my son for lunch here with his Halloween
50:15
costume. Hopefully save Halloween. So some closing
50:19
questions. We always tell folks you can take these
50:21
as seriously or not as you'd like to. Kory I'll
50:23
give you the start here, since you told me offhand
50:27
that you have one dialed up here. So if you're
50:29
Pope for a day, what does that day look like for
50:31
you?
50:33
>> Kory: The first thing I'm doing is I am making Easter
50:35
the same Sunday every year.
50:39
>> Loren: Do it.
50:39
>> Kory: I am so Tired of working around, um, spring breaks
50:45
and other things that are going on and trying to
50:48
plan. Oh, it's in March this year. Who knows? The
50:52
third week in April. This is ridiculous. It's
50:54
based on some, you know, pagan harvest festival.
50:57
Come on, come on, Pope, get with it. Just make it
51:00
the first Sunday of April every year so we can
51:03
plan around it better. I would spend my whole day.
51:06
That's the only thing I want to tackle. I'm a one
51:07
issue Pope, and that is my issue. This is.
51:10
>> Loren: That is brilliant. And I'm kind of offended that
51:13
no one has brought that up before. Like, I think
51:15
that's the best. Because Easter I just heard from
51:18
this Easter is April 5, which is fairly
51:21
reasonable, right?
51:22
>> Kory: Yeah.
51:23
>> Loren: But there's been like, March.
51:26
>> Kory: Yeah.
51:26
>> Loren: Like mid March Easters where it's like, this is
51:29
ridiculous. Like, why is there a mid March Easter?
51:31
>> Kory: It's in my church in Chicago. I had an Easter egg
51:34
hunt the day before Easter. Snowed out because it
51:36
was in, like, late March church. This is
51:38
ridiculous. Come on.
51:39
>> Loren: No, and like, in Colorado, like, spring is. We
51:44
always get, like, a spring snowstorm. So, like,
51:47
several years ago, like, I went around this entire
51:49
neighborhood of my church, like, throwing out
51:51
Easter eggs with, like, an invitation to church.
51:53
And then, like, I spent so many hours. And then,
51:55
of course, I get snowed like six inches.
51:57
>> Kory: Right? Yeah, that's an easy one. But that's what I
52:01
would do, no question.
52:01
>> Loren: Okay, Erin you got tough. A tough act to follow
52:05
there.
52:05
>> Erin: Yeah, I don't have a better answer than that. So
52:08
I'm just gonna nominate Kory to be Pope.
52:11
>> Kory: Got it.
52:11
>> Loren: Okay.
52:12
>> Kory: I look good in the hat too. I mean, let me tell
52:14
you.
52:14
>> Loren: Uh, okay then, Erin I'll set you up here first so
52:18
you can. You can, like, make, uh, Kory have to
52:21
work. What's a theologian or historical Christian
52:24
figure that you'd want to meet or bring back to
52:26
life?
52:27
>> Erin: I want to have a conversation with Frederick
52:29
Buechnik. Um, that his ability to tell story, his
52:34
ability to make, um, such profound theological
52:38
thoughts so simple and so easy for the layperson
52:44
even to really abide and to live with. Um, that's
52:48
the conversation I want to have. So evidently it's
52:50
Frederick Buechner that I have to bring back to
52:52
life so I can have dinner with him.
52:54
>> Loren: Yeah.
52:55
>> Erin: Good.
52:55
>> Loren: I like that. That, uh, Kory how about you?
52:57
>> Kory: It would be Dietrich Bonhoeffer. I, uh, would want
52:59
to know how he, um, uh, was so courageous and
53:03
maintained his faith in the face of, um, a
53:08
government, um, and, ah, a dictatorial figure who
53:12
Was, uh, doing the kind of things that that person
53:16
did? How was he courageous to do that, even, you
53:19
know, um, at the cost of his own freedom and
53:22
ultimately his own life.
53:25
>> Loren: Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. Two B's for sure.
53:28
Um, Erin I'm going to set you up here again. What
53:31
do you think history will remember from our
53:33
current time and place?
53:36
>> Erin: That's a loaded question.
53:38
>> Loren: I mean, why ask it? Because I know people have to
53:42
kind of stumble over it.
53:44
>> Erin: Right. M. I hope that what history will remember
53:49
about the church is that we were a, ah, people,
53:53
um, the American church. Let me say that. That we
53:55
were a people who continued to advocate for
53:58
justice and for righteousness. Anytime, um, you
54:01
look over, um, significant history, time periods,
54:05
the church is there. And it's really a question of
54:08
how did the church respond. Uh, I firmly believe
54:11
that, at least in the United States, we are in one
54:13
of those significant historical moments. Um, I
54:16
think this is a time that, uh, children will read
54:20
about in the future. And I hope that the church is
54:24
a part of that story.
54:27
>> Kory: Yeah, Kory Yeah. I mean, along the same lines, I,
54:30
uh, hope that, uh, history will remember that we
54:33
chose faith over fear, uh, because there is so
54:35
much to be scared of right now. Um, but that's
54:37
exactly the moment that we're called to step out
54:40
of the boat and live out our faith.
54:42
>> Loren: Yeah. I mean, it's true too. It's on theme for
54:45
what this entire conversation has been about.
54:48
>> Kory: Yeah.
54:49
>> Loren: Kory this is sort of what you all already said.
54:54
But if you want to address it here more directly,
54:57
what do you hope? Like, what do you hope for the
55:00
future, maybe of Christianity, maybe of our
55:03
denomination, that we share that the Christian
55:05
Church Disciples of Christ's Mainline
55:07
Protestantism. Like, answer that how you will.
55:09
>> Kory: Yeah, I mean, uh, you know, Phyllis Tickle talks
55:12
about how every 500 years there's a garage sale in
55:14
the church. And a lot of stuff gets sold off. And
55:17
what emerges from it is often leaner, more focused
55:21
kind of church. And I think that's right where we
55:24
are. I think that there's a lot that needs to die,
55:26
um, so we can refocus on what's important, um,
55:30
related to the last question. And so my hope for
55:32
the future of Christianity, I mean, it is going to
55:35
continue. That's not a question. My hope is it
55:37
continues in a way that it is relevant, uh, um,
55:40
to, um, our society. And that it continues to
55:44
shine the light of the gospel into this world in
55:47
ways that truly make a difference.
55:51
>> Erin: Phyllis Tickle came to mind for me too, Kory Uh,
55:54
the Church's garage sale.
55:57
>> Loren: Erin anything to add there?
55:58
>> Erin: Just that when that garage sale, I mean I think
56:00
that's happening right now, but when that happens,
56:03
that we um, we choose the right things to cling to
56:07
and the right things to sell off.
56:09
>> Kory: Mhm.
56:10
>> Loren: Boy, that's a. Yeah, that'll preach. Yeah, hold
56:14
on, I gotta write that down. Choose right things
56:17
to cling to and sell off. Good stuff. Do you all
56:24
want to share, uh, how folks can get connected
56:26
with you? Get a copy of the book, all that stuff.
56:30
>> Kory: Sure. So the book, uh, we encourage you to
56:32
purchase it from Chalice Press, which is our
56:33
denominational, uh, publishing organization, uh,
56:37
challispress.org and you search for the book, you
56:39
can find it there. And then, uh, my church's
56:42
website is crestwoodchristian, all1word.org. Um,
56:45
you can find me there and on all the social medias
56:48
as well. And a direct email is Kory K O r
56:51
y@crestwoodchristian.org and you can find.
56:57
>> Erin: Thriving church on Facebook. Uh, the book itself
57:00
has a Facebook page. We are, I confess, slowly but
57:03
surely building a website for the thriving church
57:07
book. Um, so eventually that will be available as
57:11
well, uh, which will be linked on the Facebook
57:15
page once it goes live. So you'll be able to find
57:16
it there. Um, you can find me at Lexington
57:19
Theological Seminary. I am Echexo Edu. Uh, you can
57:30
track me down that way you can, um, find me on
57:33
social media as well.
57:35
>> Loren: Well, thanks for doing all that. I had to write
57:39
that down that was too good not to write down. So
57:41
I really appreciate the conversation, really
57:43
recommend the book for, so for folks to check out.
57:46
And it's available, right?
57:48
>> Kory: Right, yes, it sure is.
57:49
>> Erin: Yeah, it's available anywhere you buy books. But
57:52
please buy it from Chalice.
57:53
>> Kory: Yeah, please.
57:55
>> Loren: Yes, I will make sure to, to link the Chalice link
57:59
just for certain, uh, folks have enough money as
58:02
it is already, right?
58:03
We always leave folks with a word of peace. So may
58:06
God's peace be with you.
58:08
>> Kory: And also with you.
58:09
>> Erin: And also with you. You.
58:20
>> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian
58:22
Podcast. The Future Christian Podcast is produced
58:25
by Resonate Media. We love to hear from our
58:28
listeners with questions, comments and ideas for
58:31
future episodes. Visit our website@uh,
58:34
future-christian.com and find the Connect with us
58:37
form at the bottom of the page to get in touch
58:40
with Martha or Loren. But before you go, do us a
58:43
favor. Subscribe to the POD to leave a review. It
58:46
really helps us get this out to more people.
58:48
Thanks and go in peace.