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Trailblazers: Outdoor Adventures with Connie Vandarakis · Living Loud and Proud: Disability Conversations

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  Welcome to the Living Loud and Proud Podcast, brought to you by Disability Pride Pennsylvania.
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  If you need a link to the transcript for this episode, please visit our accessible website at www.disabilitypridepa.org/podcast.
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  And now, here is your host.
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  Hey folks, Phill Rosen here. I wanted to highlight a few events we have coming up for our Outdoor Adventure Series this month in Philadelphia,
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  just before we get going on our episode today. On October 11th, we have a silent disco happening on Sensory Avenue at OURfest. This is
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  happening at the Church of St. Luke and The Epiphany from 12:00 to 5:00 p.m. in Center City. On October 17th,
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  the Walk and Roll for Mental Health with NAMI is happening at Friends Hospital on Roosevelt Boulevard
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  from 10:00 a.m. to 12:00 p.m. Also on October
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  17th, we're having our last fishing event for the year: fishing on the Schuylkill River Trail
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  at the Locust Street entrance to the Schuylkill River Trail from 11:00 a.m. to 1:30 p.m. On October 24th,
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  we're having our Little Sit at the Schuylkill Center for Environmental
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  Education from 8:30 to 11:30 a.m. on Hagy's Mill Road in Philly. And lastly, on October 31st, we are
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  putting on the "Let Your Inner Child Build Worlds" Creative Writing event at Bartram's Garden from 12:00 to 2:00 p.m. in South Philly.
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  If you're in the Philadelphia area and are interested in participating, register on our calendar of fun at disabilitypridepa.org.
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  We hope to see you at the events this month.
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  And now, on to our episode this week.
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  Hey folks, welcome to the Living Loud and Proud podcast. Today's topic is our Outdoors for
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  Everyone program and accessible nature sites. I'm your host and producer, Phill Rosen, and I'm here
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  with my guest, Connie Vandarakis. Excuse me, Connie Vandarakis—oh my gosh, a little bit of a mouthful
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  there. Connie is our special events coordinator here at Disability Pride PA. She's an international
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  disability consultant and master teacher of inclusive dance. And if I remember correctly,
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  we met back in 2018 when we did On Display at Suburban Station, right?
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  Yeah, I actually... Vicki Landers, the
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  Executive Director of Disability Pride, was just doing events, different kinds of events. And I was
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  an Associate Dean at University of the Arts at the time. And she kept emailing me and calling me
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  and saying, "Hey, I want to do an inclusive dance event." And then as the universe would have it, I left the university and the doors opened up in 2018. And I think it was in October or November we did On Display. Yeah, it was our first project together. And I've been with Disability Pride ever since.
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  Yeah, yeah, I think it was like right around Halloween, actually. I think it was like the 27th
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  or something. It was like on the weekend, right?
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  Yeah, it was on the weekend. Yeah.
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  So yeah, that was a really fun time. And, you know, my wife was participating as well. It was like, what, 12 of us
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  or something, I think down there.
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  Yeah, I think we had about a dozen people, all abilities and disabilities together, taking over Suburban Station and staging an on-site performance, which was really cool.
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  Yeah. So, Connie, I just wanted to start off with just a really basic, like...
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  this program kind of has been going on for a little bit, right? And it's kind of morphed a
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  little bit over the years. So when did this program officially start?
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  Yeah, that's a really good question. And I actually had to do a little research to make sure that I knew the facts.
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  And actually, your wife, I think, wrote the first grant. It was with Vicki.
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  It was a Circuit Trails grant and the Circuit Trails Coalition got a small grant from the
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  William Penn Foundation to start little incubators of marginalized communities that wanted to work in nature and outside. And so Outdoors for Everyone
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  was born in 2023.
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  Oh, wow. Okay.
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  Yeah. And there were some events, Walk and Rolls, there was a scavenger hunt. There were a few events, but it was a small grant, so there were small things,
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  but we learned a lot about accessibility on the trails during that year. It was really
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  a development year for us to learn about, like, can we get on the trails and what can we do on the trails. And since then, um, we had
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  that grant for, um, three years total, so it was like a pilot program. And then last year, Vicki and I, um,
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  saw the RFP, RFP net, um, for William Penn for their outdoor programming, and we thought, "Let's go for it.
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  You know, let's do it."
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  And so Outdoors for Everyone is now transformed into Outdoor Adventures.
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  So, and that has happened through the generous grants of the William Penn Foundation,
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  which we have for the next three years.
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  And we are providing monthly, many
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  events outdoors.
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  Yeah, yeah, no, it's great. I think I remember the first year I went to a couple of the events, there was like an accessible fishing. I don't actually remember where the accessible fishing was at the time.
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  Yeah, the accessible fishing came in in the third year.
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  Oh, the third year. That's right, yeah.
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  Um, there was the birding.
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  Uh, yes, that I think I remember we went down to the Water Works.
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  Yes, yeah. So, um, we've done forest bathing, um, which I think you were a part of too, maybe. I think maybe I'm... I don't really recall, but I don't know. We had a great partner at the Academy of Natural Sciences. And I'm just saying that because the Academy is no more right now, we think. I'm not quite sure what the status is, but I think right now it's closed.
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  And John Escate
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  was a great partner in helping
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  us, um, identify nature. He would bring volunteers that were experts and could help us, and actually,
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  I'll talk about it a little bit later, but that's how we began to develop staff for Outdoor Adventures.
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  Yeah. So, um, you know, I think you kind of touched on it a
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  little bit, but what was like kind of the initial way of like finding these sites that were accessible? Because
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  like, I don't know, there's like a lot of trails in Philly, or there's at least a few that I know of that aren't
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  necessarily the most accessible. Like Pennypack can be a little iffy at times, you know, for people with manual wheelchairs, right? And certainly the Wissahickon is absolutely really not that accessible,
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  right? Because it's more or less a hiking trail. So like, what's gone into like kind of researching
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  these places that are maybe a little bit better paved or like have concrete, you know, surfaces, that kind of stuff?
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  Well, actually, I think the Circuit Trails Coalition and Disability Pride have worked really well together at like identifying what makes an accessible trail and where are they and what are the obstacles.
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  I think number one is: can you navigate on a trail?
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  Is it a hard enough surface that a wheelchair can roll?
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  Is it, you know, gravel—is it packed gravel, or is it loose gravel, or is it just dirt?
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  Some of the trails we would go on, there would be weather the day before or the week before,
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  which would create big
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  puddles and mud, which were like, "Oh, well, now it's temporarily not accessible." And really, it was through
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  trial and error. I mean, I've been to a lot of different places in Philly, saying, you know, like, just walking the trail,
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  looking to see if there's accessible bathrooms, are there places people can rest.
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  So it's really trial and error and word of mouth.
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  Somebody will say, "Oh, you should check this out," and I'll go and check it out to see what it is.
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  But now I think there has been a real movement in making trails and sites like parks more accessible so that everyone can enjoy them.
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  And, you know, Disability Pride is about building community for everyone.
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  So it's not just for disabled people.
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  Everybody's like, "Oh, you're doing such a nice thing for disabled people."
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  I'm like, "No, this is for everybody." You know, like, "Oh, you're doing such a nice thing for disabled people." I'm like, "No, this is for everybody." You know, like every... you know, like one in Philadelphia,
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  17% of the population is disabled, right? So that's basically one in four, one in five people.
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  That includes families, you know, families want to do things together. And so, like, we offer events where everybody can participate.
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  And so, yes, yes, it is for disabled people, but it is not an exclusive club.
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  Everyone is invited.
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  And I think we have also, and I'd love to talk about, we have dealt with some stereotypes about disabled people. I remember our first accessible fishing event at John Heinz. There were different kinds of disabilities represented at the accessible dock and we were fishing and a man walked by with his three children. And of course,
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  we're inviting people, "Hey, you want to fish? You want to join us?" And he just looked at the group
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  and he said, "No, thank you." And he walked away with his family, even though his kids were like,
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  "Yeah, Dad, let's join." And you could tell that, like, Dad was just scared because he didn't know.
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  Right. Or maybe he was worried he might have to explain something that he didn't know. Right. Or maybe he was worried he might have to explain something that he doesn't know how to explain like very well, you know?
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  Yes. Right.
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  And then they came back because they did a loop, right?
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  And so when they came back, he engaged with us
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  and we started talking about what we were doing,
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  and his kids asked, "Can we fish?" And so then they came and fished, and they became part of our community for the day. And one of his sons caught the biggest fish of the day.
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  And I remember him being very excited—the father—very excited that his kids participated.
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  And so I think we're breaking barriers of stereotypes of all kinds of things with our events. And I think that the more we normalize that community looks different all the time and everyone is included, that more and more people get involved.
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  Yeah, I have lots of those stories, which... I'll just say one more because I thought it was
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  a really remarkable story.
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  And that was at our last fishing event on the Schuylkill River.
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  There was a man who was an immigrant and he was fishing alone
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  on one side of the furthest perimeter of where we were. And we went over and we talked to him.
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  We invited him to go. And he very kindly said no. And you could tell it was out of fear,
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  you know, he didn't know us, how... how could he trust us, that kind of thing. And he literally
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  watched us all day. By the end of... when it was 1:00 or maybe 12:30, he walked over and he had
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  closed up his fishing stuff and sat on a bench and started talking to people and then started talking with our
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  experts and like... and then we invited them to the next one, you know? So like, people are watching us,
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  seeing how much fun we're having and like that we're a safe community that's very diverse,
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  and eventually coming over to say, "Oh, you guys are... maybe I'm going to check you out next time," you know?
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  Yeah. Yeah. That, that is one of the cool things about,
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  I think Disability Pride events in general, like all of them, right?
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  'Cause like that, that's something that when I'm like talking to people,
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  like tabling at events or something, you know, people are always like, "Oh,
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  you know, is this just for disabled people?" or, or like,
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  "Is this only for one community?" And it's like, well, no, no, no. Like it... like everyone can come. You know, people are always like, "Oh, you know, is this just for disabled people or... or like is this only for one community?" And it's like, well, no, no, no. Like it... like everyone can come. We, you know, we're really about just
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  kind of, um, you know, hanging out, having a good time. You know, maybe at some of the events we have like resources
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  or tables with, with people that, you know, have resources that they can offer or whatever. But like, it's not really about like creating, you know, separating people or like trying to
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  provide resources for people necessarily.
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  It's just about like all hanging out, having a good time and just creating that community.
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  And so, and people are always like kind of taken aback.
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  They're like, "What is this?"
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  Like, "I don't really understand." Or like, you know, some places they have... like kind of taken aback. They're like, "Wait, what is this? Like, I don't really understand."
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  Or like, you know, some places they have like, you know, different... like different tables for different age ranges or whatever.
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  And they don't really know how to categorize our table.
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  Right.
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  Because it's like it's kind of this sort of all ages, sort of nebulous sort of like grouping, and they're like, "Well, is 21 plus
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  fine?" And then it's like, "Well, not exactly," right?
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  Yeah, families... families are always invited, and you know, I think that that comes from Vicki because she's very inclusionary of all, all marginalized,
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  polarized groups in Philadelphia.
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  But also, I think, because in our mission statement, it says that we have fun.
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  You know, and that is something that Vicki is always adamant about, that the word "fun" appear in our mission statement.
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  And I think that when people engage with us, they see that.
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  And don't we all need a little joy in the world?
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  Yeah, for sure. And, you know, I also think that something that is sorely lacking in this country is like the sense of like community building.
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  And, you know, so it's nice to be part of an organization that tries to actively do that.
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  You know, who knows if we're super successful at times, but, you know, it sounds like people tend to warm up to us for the most part.
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  Yeah, I think... I think they do. And people are watching, you know, like... which is observing and being aware of community is really important.
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  And, you know, there were so many... there's so many people that are sitting on benches just kind of watching what we're doing.
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  And some of them get up and participate, you know.
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  So... and then again, with our last fishing event, there was a young man reading a book who, like, I asked him if
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  he wanted to fish. He's like, "Oh no, no, no, I'm... I don't... I don't do that." And I was like, "Okay." He never
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  left; he moved to the back bench. And he... I was watching him from time to time. He was watching us the whole
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  time. I don't think he read much of his book, but he was enjoying from the watching end because we caught a lot of fish that day.
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  Yeah, no, I have to admit, every one of the fishing events I've been to, we've caught a lot of fish. I've been very surprised by that. We've been very lucky.
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  Yeah. And, um, you know, like, I... I don't want to talk about fishing the whole time, but I want to talk
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  about community building and then staff building, because I mentioned John Escate earlier, and he would always bring his volunteers from the Academy to help out with our programs.
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  And he brought two young men.
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  One was a birder—his name is Jay—
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  and one was a fishing person—his name is Peter.
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  And so like, they did not know each other, but they were about the same age, college age,
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  young men. And Peter brought his fishing pole. And we were at the Schuylkill River Trail,
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  right at Boathouse Row where the cafe is. And we were just throwing a line and we caught like maybe
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  six fish. I mean, it was... it was not planned.
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  It just kind of happened. But the bigger thing that happened was Jay, the birder's experience in fishing.
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  And then Jay and Peter getting to know each other. And I remember Jay's journal, he was, you know, listing all the birds.
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  And then he wrote something.
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  He said, "I caught a fish," which I thought, "Great." And then he wrote a second line that said, "We all caught a fish."
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  So like, going from the self to the community was like mind blowing to me.
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  It was just like an amazing anecdote that I saw.
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  And then Peter went on.
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  He was... he's an expert in fishing.
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  Both... both gentlemen are neurodiverse.
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  And we... later, we hired Peter to be our expert for our fishing adventures, and him and his dad volunteer.
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  And Peter is our fishing expert.
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  So out of just being a volunteer at another place and coming with your special interest, we found a staff member that we can help employ in their special interest. So like, it doesn't get much better
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  than that, I think.
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  Yeah, so I have to admit, I remember going to the birding event, like down at the Water Works. And, you know, I was personally a little like, "Oh, like, how much birding are we going to get?
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  Like, how many, like, kind of rare birds are we going to see, or, or
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  like what kinds of birds are we going to see?" And I was actually really surprised by the fact that we were able to see so many
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  at the, at the, uh... you know, just in the middle of the city, really. I mean, right? And, um, so has anyone like expressed to you like surprise
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  about where the location of the events are, or like what the events are in the locations they are?
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  Um, surprise? Uh, I don't know if they've been surprised, but they certainly are
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  interested, you know, like, "You're doing what?" You know, like, and, uh, we did the City Nature Challenge
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  at the Schuylkill River Trail
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  too, um, and, uh, bugs, uh, fauna and, uh, flora and trees, and, um, there's that neat little place, the
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  Isle of Jean they call it, which is like a little walk-around little island, um, between the Water Works and Boathouse Row, which really has some... you really get to spy on some unique birds.
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  And yeah, I'm amazed at how many different birds we see, you know, in the events.
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  But, you know, we love nature, and we love nature, and we all know the many, many
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  benefits of being in nature. I mean, we could, we could quote... we could quote research about health
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  benefits, mental health benefits of being in nature. But also, we're bringing the arts
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  to nature, too. And this is... we've done the arts to nature, too.
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  And this is... we've done inclusive dance events where we've done dance in nature.
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  But this year, we also started a creative writing series that is outdoors.
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  And we've been going to Bartram's Garden.
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  And we have an artist, Malachi Lilly, who comes and has a theme and creates prompts, and people go off and to different parts of the garden and write and then they come back and share.
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  And it's really been quite popular, too, because community doesn't have to be for all the extroverts, right?
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  I mean, creative writing is kind of a solitude kind of thing. You can go off, be by yourself,
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  spend time in nature, but still you're in community with a larger group, so it's safe.
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  And then you come back and you can share or not share. So for those people who like... want community, but don't want to... they're not extroverts, but they want community, they can be a part of that, too. That's not to say that there's not extroverts in creative writing, but creating opportunities for all different kinds of people.
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  Right. Well, in some ways, it's kind of like creating a body doubling sort of experience for
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  people who would want that, right?
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  Right.
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  So, but yeah, so you did kind of talk about how like
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  the program got started, but was there like a further inspiration besides just seeing that there was like this Circuit Trails initiative that was going on?
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  Like, was there a desire, like, from within the organization to be like, "Hey, we should do something that's nature related," because, you know, maybe it's not something that
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  people think about with regards to the disability community or making inclusive?
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  Yeah, well, I think the word "isolation" comes into play because in Corona, we learned how to isolate
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  very well for safety, right? And then we didn't know how to come out of it, and I think, um, an outdoor program
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  began... began to allow people to organize in groups again safely with moving air in between us all, not
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  in a building. So I think, uh, actually coming out of the pandemic was the first inspiration.
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  But then as we realized how healing nature can be and fun nature can be at the same time, right?
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  At the same time, that motivated me more to say, "Hey, I want to... let's do
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  more of this. This is really cool." And Philadelphia is such an outdoor place to be. There are so many
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  lovely places to sit, enjoy arts, enjoy popular culture. I just went to last week the Calder Museum, but I
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  didn't go inside. I just wanted to experience the garden that is around there. And if you think about
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  that, it's so... it's all native plants that are on like 21st and the Parkway.
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  It looks totally unruly.
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  You know, it's not groomed.
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  It's not manicured.
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  You have these huge skyscrapers if you look in any direction.
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  And yet there's this beautiful garden that exists on the Parkway, which I think is, um, an event in of itself
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  just to not even go inside, but enjoy the... the beautiful garden. Um, and, and you know, at some point,
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  Philadelphia did look like that, right?
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  Yeah, no, of course. Or, or, you know, the... the Wissahickon, right? Like, it used to be all of Philadelphia or large parts of it, right?
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  Right, right.
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  So, yeah, it does make sense that, you know, these little pockets are there.
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  So what goes into making a plan of, like, the locations? Like, are there considerations for like transit? Are there considerations for, you know, parking or like access in that respect? Like what?
• 25:54
  Oh, yeah. I have... I have a checklist that I always take with me in my... in my head now. But, you know, is like where can I park, right? How accessible is where
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  I'm going, and do they have accessible parking or is it just regular parking? So one, are they even
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  aware that they need accessible parking? Um, then I'm always looking at the terrain to see, you know,
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  like, how far we can go. Um, because some trails you can go pretty far, but then you can't.
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  Like I was at FDR Park maybe three weeks ago, and I had a...
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  and it's really pretty accessible,
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  except for a few tree roots that are working their way up over the asphalt.
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  But... and they have an accessible dock, which I saw.
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  And then I said to them, so I went up to them and I said, "So do you have any accessible boats,
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  you know, like people could roll into or something like that?" And they're like, "No."
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  And I thought, "Oh, you should think about writing a grant to get some accessible boats, maybe, because this
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  is a great place, and you know, it's... it's an incredible park." And, um, what I love about FDR Park is it's
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  so international, and you really get a sense of the communities in Philadelphia. Um, I was really kind of
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  blown away by FDR Park because I hadn't really spent a lot of time. So sometimes, you know, like, I'll just be there for something else. And then I'll say, "Oh, let me go explore this and see what... see what happens." But I'm... and then I'm always thinking, "Well, if someone needs to use the toilet, is there a way... is there an accessible bathroom somewhere?"
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  And, you know, there are places that have accessible toilets, but then they don't think about what ground they put it on or, you know... and it's an opportunity to just remind them, "Hey, it's so great you have this accessible bathroom.
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  But look at the divot because of the weather that... it's so great you have this accessible bathroom, but look at the divot because of the weather that it's created that nobody can get into the accessible bathroom." So, you know, I don't know if people like me or don't like me when I come up to talk to them, because I'm always like, "Hey, this is great! And,
• 28:18
  yeah, here's how it could be better.
• 28:25
  Yeah.
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  Have you thought about this?"
• 28:30
  Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense.
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  So, you know, I also am just kind of curious, though, like a lot of people who are disabled don't necessarily have access to like cars or don't have a car themselves.
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  Right.
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  Do you think about public transit like when you make these events as well?
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  Yes, we do. And one of the things that I love is that some of our disabled participants use paratransit and public transportation to get to our events.
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  And again, like Bartram's Garden,
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  you can get to FDR Park,
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  you can get to Burholme Park.
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  It's a little bit... it's in the Northeast.
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  It's a little bit harder to get to,
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  but I try to make it...
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  and our grant is for Philadelphia and Camden.
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  So we're really working within the city limits.
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  Right.
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  this grant. So we are really trying to explore how can you get to our event using public
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  transportation. And we're lucky to have a president on the board who really works in transit,
• 29:44
  in advocacy. And, and he uses public transportation to get to some of these events. So it's important for us to have that feedback of like, "Yeah, I really wanted to come, but I couldn't get there," kind of thing.
• 30:01
  But that's one of the things that I am looking for.
• 30:04
  I would also say that
• 30:06
  throughout this program, we have become an advisor and an advocate for many organizations going,
• 30:15
  "Yeah, we want to be more accessible, but we don't know how." And so, like, they invite us to
• 30:21
  conversations. And, like, what's... it's great to have a conversation, you know, like, "What are you thinking?" And like just recently, um, the Friends of the Wissahickon invited me
• 30:33
  because they're... um, they got a grant to make an all-accessible trail. Um, it's in Germantown and it's, uh...
• 30:41
  it's a very small one, but they're also, you know, they know, they're like, "What do I need to do?" And
• 30:46
  we're like, "Well, include the disability community in planning for your accessible trail, you know,
• 30:53
  like talk to the residents." And there is a senior community by where they're doing a trail. And so
• 31:00
  they've had conversations with the senior population of like, "What would you like to see
• 31:04
  on this all-accessible trail?"
• 31:06
  So I think it starts small first with the conversation, then people write a grant, and then there's the execution of the grants.
• 31:15
  And the flip side of that with all the progress is: one, we don't control the weather.
• 31:26
  And the weather has been extreme for obvious reasons.
• 31:30
  And then two, because the weather we can't control, we can't control the maintenance of the trails.
• 31:40
  Like, for instance, we couldn't go to John Heinz trail because the... there was so much
• 31:45
  erosion that they had to, um, block and, uh, the accessible dock this year for fishing. So we weren't
• 31:54
  allowed to fish, uh, at John Heinz because the accessible dock was being rebuilt in as part of
• 32:00
  the plan. Now we'll get a new dock, which is great, but for a year it was kind of like, "Oh, we can't go
• 32:06
  there." But there's many other things we could do there as well. So, um, yeah, you can't control the weather.
• 32:13
  That's a shocker! Yeah, heat, rain, snow, um, the cold, uh, you know... um, people respond differently to weather. So sometimes you win, sometimes you don't.
• 32:29
  So we've kind of touched on this a little bit, but the program's evolved a little bit over the time that it's, it's run.
• 32:37
  How exactly has it evolved? Like, are there like new people that you want to kind of shout out?
• 32:44
  Are there organizations maybe that you want to kind of shout out, or their, um, you know, organizations maybe that
• 32:49
  that you want to shout out that have like kind of embraced us a little bit more over time, or...
• 32:53
  Um, yeah, absolutely. Um, and, and let's start with home, you know? Like, I think Vicki has, uh, embraced
• 33:04
  this idea of moving forward with doing events
• 33:07
  outdoors, as all our Disability Pride events are outdoors. You know, we really are an outdoor
• 33:14
  event planner in terms of Philadelphia and throughout the Commonwealth. So there's that,
• 33:22
  that, you know, we want to shout out to our own selves, like, "Yay, we're doing this work!"
• 33:26
  But the Academy of Natural Sciences has been a good partner.
• 33:32
  John Escate has been a great partner.
• 33:34
  Um, uh, Amelia, um, from the Circuit Trails has been an incredible mentor and, um, advisor
• 33:44
  on, and really a network networker, because the Circuit Trail
• 33:49
  convenings bring all these small incubators together to get to know each other, to collaborate
• 33:57
  on projects and really get to know different people. One of the reasons our fishing program
• 34:03
  is so great is because Todd Pride from
• 34:07
  Mid-Atlantic Anglers, and is on the Fishing Commission, helps us get our license.
• 34:15
  Yeah.
• 34:16
  Our fishing license, because you got to have a fishing license to fish, right? And I don't know
• 34:21
  anything about that. So like, you think about the little things that you think, "Oh, it's not a big deal, they're giving us a fishing license," but that's something that I
• 34:29
  would have to spend time and research to figure out, whereas Todd's just like, "Oh, I got you," and
• 34:36
  helped us do that, right? So that's a big shout out to, um, to Todd, to our, um... to our fishing experts, right? Peter and Joe Kuffler, they're
• 34:48
  amazing, um, in helping facilitate our, our fishing events. Um, our arts and culture group, right? Our
• 34:56
  staff, I... I can't do this by myself, so you and Summer are great in helping me facilitate. Um, Andy Bernstein from Accessible Pharmacy was actually the guy that got us kind of sparked
• 35:12
  on this fishing expedition that we're... adventure that we're on.
• 35:17
  So shout out to Andy.
• 35:21
  So there's so many: the birding—In Color Birding, Feminist Birders, Queer Birders, Adaptive Birders.
• 35:29
  They have been so welcoming to Disability Pride coming in and being a partner in these events.
• 35:39
  You know, you can't... it's hard to do by yourself, but it's easy to do with so many partners, right?
• 35:48
  Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah.
• 35:50
  And, and on, on that note, I just, uh... as we, as we talk about October 2026 and we have an
• 35:58
  action-packed month, there is sometimes two events going on in the same day for Outdoor Adventures.
• 36:08
  Oh, I want to do one more shout out, and I just thought about this. So the William Penn Foundation not only funded this grant and the Circuit Trails grant that we were an incubator,
• 36:21
  but two years ago, they paid for me—paid for everything for me to go to the
• 36:29
  Greater & Greener Conference in Seattle.
• 36:38
  Okay.
• 36:40
  And really see at a national level what's happening
• 36:49
  with accessibility and trails across the country and stuff like that. And, you know, there are some
• 36:56
  incredible programs and very accessible adventures. And when I say adventures, I mean like mountain
• 37:03
  adventures where they have these wheelchairs with these big wheels, and some of them are electric,
• 37:08
  and mud swamps. And... and I mean, there are some very, very cool accessible outdoor adventures. Um, but I'm... which are very cool, but I am more
• 37:18
  interested on the community building aspect of the adventures, you know? I love the adventures. I'm not so much an
• 37:27
  extreme adventure person, but I know people that do those extreme adventures. I mean, I know
• 37:32
  one guy in New York who takes a group to climb... is it... it's not Kilimanjaro, or... but it's fully accessible, like...
• 37:44
  Oh, wow.
• 37:49
  It's fully accessible, and they have these huge, like, almost like mini bulldozers that can help people traverse up these... the pathway, so
• 37:59
  it's amazing! So like, wow, there is stuff happening out there that is incredible. So if you are an extreme person, there is stuff for you to do, regardless of disability.
• 38:15
  Also, there's one of my friends, Carrie-Yonne... I should know her last name.
• 38:24
  But anyway, she has a degenerative muscle condition. And so it was her goal to hike down the Grand Canyon.
• 38:34
  She lost more of her mobility, and there's a documentary, um, built on that whole thing, and
• 38:42
  she wanted to do the rapids, and so she did get to do part of it.
• 38:46
  A lot of rapids, it's... it's about safety, right?
• 38:51
  Right. Yeah.
• 38:52
  Well, and the, you know, the Colorado River and the Grand Canyon are particularly,
• 38:58
  I don't know, I... I'm not sure what the best way to... maybe wild kind of terrain, right?
• 39:06
  Yeah, that is an extreme, extreme adventure.
• 39:11
  So, but getting back to community, I am really about like, how can we enjoy the outdoors and be in community together?
• 39:20
  And I think at a time when we really need community, it's important.
• 39:30
  I would say people are, you know, the fear of what's happening in this country, and not to be political, but there are some communities that don't feel safe in community anymore.
• 39:41
  And so like if we can gain the trust of people to have fun together,
• 39:49
  and that includes... we know disability affects all communities, right? And I think that whether people are joining us, us, or observing us, they're learning.
• 40:03
  And they're learning about community and what it could look like.
• 40:07
  And to me, like, that says it all.
• 40:12
  Yeah.
• 40:18
  Yeah, I don't want to take too much of an aside on that,
• 40:20
  but I think you're definitely hitting on something very important there, that, you know, community building and... and like showing what, um, it means to care for each other is probably
• 40:31
  the way to get out of this mess that we have somewhat created for ourselves, societally speaking,
• 40:36
  right? Um, and, you know, I... I wish that wasn't a political thing to say. It doesn't feel political,
• 40:44
  right? But it really is.
• 40:48
  But anyways, let's move on and get back to Outdoor Adventures.
• 40:55
  Are there specific events that people have come back and been like,
• 40:59
  "Oh my God, that was the best thing that I've ever done,"
• 41:02
  or, "That was so much fun,
• 41:04
  let's do it again"? Is there anything that stands out?
• 41:13
  Well, I... I would say right in this moment in time, there are two things that are standing out. One is our fishing events. Uh, we get a lot of first-time fishing
• 41:20
  people, you know? "I've never touched a rod, never... never touched a fish." And, and so that's really cool, because I don't consider myself a person that fishes,
• 41:35
  and I enjoy watching the people fish,
• 41:43
  you know, like the joy, and Peter, our expert, the joy of him identifying the fish and telling us little facts about the fish.
• 41:57
  And then we release all the fish or most of the fish.
• 42:03
  Some of the fish becomes bait for other fish, but it is a catch and
• 42:08
  release program. We're not... we're not keeping anything. But I would say fishing is... is extremely...
• 42:17
  it's a calming kind of thing, and it's also exciting. Um, I think we've been extremely lucky in catching
• 42:26
  so many fish, but it can become very like peaceful when you're waiting to catch a fish, and... and
• 42:33
  there's opportunity for conversation and... and stuff like that. The other, um, program that has had
• 42:42
  good success is our new creative writing, um, program. And I think that
• 42:48
  because it offers a different kind of way of being together in community,
• 42:53
  um, I think that it's a hit right now, and I hope it continues to be a hit. And we hope to
• 43:02
  bring in some clay making next spring. Um, I have an expert
• 43:08
  who wants to do some work with us, um, some music, uh, uh, some drumming work. Um, I hope to do some
• 43:17
  more, um, meditation and, uh, Walk and Rolls, um, as we navigate. I'm also thinking like, is there a place
• 43:29
  we can join and garden, you know, like community gardens with raised beds where it's accessible to
• 43:36
  everybody? Um, so there's... Philadelphia is full of outdoor activity. We just need to help
• 43:44
  figure out how, you know, we build accessibility in the
• 43:50
  front end of things. And if we can teach people to do that, then we win, right? Right. In essence,
• 43:59
  they don't need us anymore, right?
• 44:08
  Yeah, no, that's very true. Yeah. Yeah, you know, and I don't know, I think there is kind of this like... I don't know, there's something after the pandemic that that just kind of feels like there's been a real kind of shift in the way a lot of people focus on accessibility. Like, it's not just like, "Oh, we have to do this, you know, because legally we're required to," or whatever. It... I don't know, it's not just like, "Oh, we have to do this, you know, because legally we're
• 44:25
  required to," or whatever. It... I don't know, it's like, you know, flying is easier now than it used to be.
• 44:32
  And I don't know if part of that was like, you know, the last administration put a focus on that
• 44:39
  through the Department of Transportation or, or whatever it is, but it kind of... it feels like it forced a permanent culture change with the airlines.
• 44:49
  Right.
• 44:50
  And, you know, before it was always like kind of a crapshoot. You had to like kind of always be advocating for yourself. Now they're like, "Oh, wait, this is your chair. Where are you going? What are we doing?"
• 45:00
  And it's like there's a lot more kind of... I don't know if it's like hands-on, but there's a lot more kind of... I don't know if it's like hands-on, but there's a lot more focus on making sure that people get where they need to go with their devices, rather than, uh, "Oh, well, whatever happens, happens," which is kind of what it felt like before a little bit. Um, yeah.
• 45:24
  And then you're... you're probably talking from personal experience. I don't have personal experience. I have had friends who most recently have, like, not had a good experience with airlines, but I do think that we are making progress.
• 45:35
  And unfortunately, sometimes it's through the litigation that happens because they haven't acted properly, and then that can change culture as well.
• 45:46
  So however it changes for the better,
• 45:48
  Yeah.
• 45:49
  I'm all for it.
• 45:51
  Well, all I know is, you know, before 2020, it was always a little bit hairy for us.
• 45:58
  And then, like, after that, you know, after like 2022 is what I remember, really.
• 46:04
  And it's just... it's always been very smooth sailing and like very easy,
• 46:09
  or at least in comparison.
• 46:11
  And, you know, who knows?
• 46:13
  Maybe it's... maybe it's just we've had good experiences,
• 46:16
  or we fly with airlines that are better on that front now.
• 46:20
  I don't know, but certainly it seems different.
• 46:24
  But I think there's a little bit of that with the outdoors stuff that we're kind of talking about.
• 46:31
  You know, you're talking about there being a conference in the Pacific Northwest and like, you know, how there's the Circuit Trails here in Pennsylvania.
• 46:38
  And I've also noticed like, just in various like places along the East Coast, there's a lot more... like, it's easier to find places that are accessible to go in nature independently online than it used to be.
• 46:56
  Yeah, I think you're right. I think there has been a trend forward, and I think it's been out of demand. Like, people are saying, "Hey, we want to... we want to do this." Um, it's been out of demand. Like people are saying, "Hey, we want to... we want to do this."
• 47:08
  And again, it's like, um, it could be a family adventure, you know? A family has a person that has different mobility needs, and they need to get from A to B and they want to participate at this cool place. So how do we do that?
• 47:22
  Yeah, I think that... I was on the Circuit Trails Coalition for a year, and to listen to the conversations that are happening on a larger scale and a bigger picture are pretty incredible. I also have the honor in my international work to see cutting-edge programs as they're developing and happening. And I think, which has allowed me to really learn about kind of the extreme adventures that can happen, but also like going to the beach has become more accessible on more beaches from simply changing the tires in a mobility device, right? So you get these chairs with these huge tires and people can actually get through the sand to get to the water. And I think that's pretty remarkable. We see people with disabilities surfing and scuba diving and, you know, swimming in the water, being in the water, enjoying the seaside, enjoying parks, picnics. Everybody wants to go on a picnic. Yeah, like, so like, can you get from A to B in the shade so that you... you know, is there a pavilion? Is there an accessible bathroom? You know, like, I think we are making a lot of progress, and I hope we continue to make the progress. And I think as we become a best practice in that, that we can show more people how it's done.
• 49:12
  And then they can... you know, it's the replication theory, you know, you replicate yourself over and over again, and it becomes normalized. And I want to see a normalized community, people with and without disabilities having fun together.
• 49:34
  Yeah, yeah, totally. And, you know, that is actually something too that I've noticed as well, as like, some places the lifeguards are, you know, they're like, "Oh, you know, here, you know, you can drive up on the beach," and like, you know, kind of stuff, or like, "We'll allow you to like go to this part," or whatever, you know.
• 49:47
  Uh, speaking of like... uh, my... my wife and I went to, um, uh, Kauai over the summer at one point, and we went to like Hanalei Beach or whatever, and they have a lifeguard station right there, and they're like, "Oh hey, you don't have to walk all the way back to the parking lot when you leave, like, just, you know, pull down, and like, it's all good." It's... it's one of those things where like, it does kind of feel like there's a lot more, um, openness as well to like being easier for accessibility from people.
• 50:25
  Yeah. And I think that comes from exposure, you know, and, and people actually going out and doing it when it, you know, like, and maybe it's not the easiest thing to do, but the more we see people doing things, they're like, "Oh," you know, and then somebody designed something to make it easier, you know? Like, there's so many little things that can be problem solved with the changing of the size of a tire, the terrain and how you prepare it, you know? Like, planning and innovation have a great part in making things more accessible for us to enjoy outdoors. You know, I think even like picnic tables, like even if there was a one section that had a little cutout, so somebody could be on the side of the picnic table instead of always in the front of the picnic table, like those little things. Even playgrounds are becoming more and more accessible. And I think people are becoming more thoughtful in how they design playgrounds, how they execute, and then how they maintain. Because maintenance, of course, when we're talking about the environment and nature, is really an important part of the process.
• 51:43
  Yeah, yeah, for sure. And, you know, with those picnic tables, it's always nice when they're bolted down, because sometimes there's only one person, and, you know, the weight offset doesn't happen if, you know, you're going out and picnicking.
• 51:56
  But so I wanted to ask this, because we've been kind of trying to help pilot other Disability Pride celebrations throughout the state and maybe create this network of groups that are all doing these independently. Right. Is there any plans or thoughts to maybe piloting that for Outdoor Adventures?
• 52:20
  Well, that would... that would be another kind of grant that we'd have to apply for, and then we'd have to decide to put resources in what a train-the-trainer program would look like, how we could train people to do that. Not out of the scope of things, for sure. I think it becomes... it becomes, uh, a point of capacity, uh, in terms of the staff, right? Of course, organization, because, um, the... the great thing about Disability Pride is there's so much to do and we have to really be thoughtful for our own capacity and for the organization's capacity to be as effective as we can. So yeah, an impact program would be fabulous. And if somebody is listening and wants to support that impact replication program, well, contact Disability Pride!
• 53:28
  Yes, of course, of course. So, and I guess, you know, something else that I was kind of curious is like, you know, Disability Pride, I think, might have resources to be able to kind of, like, kind of leave Philadelphia County a little bit, like maybe go to Delaware or to Montgomery, for instance. I imagine that it would be a little difficult to go too much farther as, like, our own little organization, right? Or at least consistently.
• 54:00
  Yeah, I think that could happen in the future, not particularly with the grant we have now, but also as Disability Pride events. As we're moving to Harrisburg, we know there's trails in Harrisburg. We know there's trails and outdoor adventures in Pittsburgh and in Erie. And so every place has a potential for outdoor adventures. And Vicki has great networks in those. So again, if we had a replication program, even within the Commonwealth, it could happen. It's about capacity.
• 54:38
  Right, of course. And, you know, I will say that one of the challenges with like, say, Delaware County or Montgomery County is some of the places I have gone to that are like accessible fishing sites or like accessible trails, like, they're very accessible. It's great, but all you can do is drive there. You can't, you know, you can't necessarily take transit. So that, that could be a little bit of a knock right there, um, for going too far outside of a city that has like decent public transit. I mean, you know, SEPTA has its issues at times, but, you know, I mean, it's fairly convenient to actually get around using SEPTA if you know what you're doing, for sure.
• 55:21
  It's true. And I think that one of the things our org, especially with this grant, is mindful of is, um, Philadelphia's disabled population also has a higher poverty rate. And so like, yeah, not everybody has a car or a van that is, uh, uh, tricked out so that it can meet your mobility needs. And so like, that's why we're focused on just the city, is to make sure that it is accessible for everyone. And by accessible, we mean, because all the events are free, you know, that in terms of economic means as well.
• 56:07
  Yeah, of course. So as we're kind of wrapping up our conversation here, I kind of wanted to ask like, what events are coming up that you want to highlight? Like, what are, like, is there anything October, November, maybe?
• 56:22
  Yeah, so just in October, we have so many events happening. We have... we're starting off on October 11th with our silent disco that we're doing at OURfest from 12:00 to 5:00 in Center City. So come out and dance outside with us for a while. And then we're also partnering with NAMI and doing their walk for mental health on the 17th of October, which is a Saturday. The same time... we had it starts at 11:00, is our last fishing event on the Schuylkill River Trail. So the same place that we were right at the Locust entrance is happening on the 17th. On the 18th, we'll be at the Philadelphia Zoo, you know. So like there's a special registration for that. But yeah, we'll be at the zoo. And then on the 24th is the Little Sit. And the Little Sit is a big birding event. Little meaning it's only for three hours. Big sits are for like 10 hours—I just learned that fun fact. Thank you, Jason, for that. Um, but, uh, In Color Birding, Queer Birding, Feminist Birders, Adaptive Birders, and Disability Pride will be doing that at the Schuylkill Center for Environmental Education on the 24th. And then on the 31st, we have a creative writing event at Bartram's Garden from 12:00 to 2:00. So, yeah, that takes us through the whole month. And then in November, we hope to be at The Discovery Center and some duck, more bird kind of events as well. So yeah, lots to come.
• 58:17
  And the environmental center, the Environmental Education Center, where is that exactly? Is that in Andorra?
• 58:24
  It is by Andorra, yeah. It's... all the details are on our website.
• 58:31
  Of course, of course.
• 58:33
  If you go to disabilitypridepa.org and then click "Outdoor Adventures," there is a list of all the activities that I just talked about with their specific details, addresses, times, and then there is a registration, too. Registrations help us with keeping accessibility in the forefront, making sure we are meeting people's needs as they come to the events.
• 59:02
  Of course, of course. Well, Connie, this has been a great conversation. It's always great to talk with you about stuff. Is there anything on the horizon that you're seeing, like, beyond just our little organization, our little set of events?
• 59:22
  Well, I... I would say, you know, from my international work and my local work in Philadelphia, like, I have to say Disability Pride is always on the forefront when we're talking about community and inclusion. And I think, you know, it's one of the reasons like I like working with the org, is because we are cutting edge and we have so much to offer in so many ways. And I do mean so many ways, because we are multifaceted as a staff and an organization. So like, I would love to see that grow. I would love to see an impact replication program for Outdoor Adventures. I would love for this to explode and to have many more staff running the programs. And yeah, would love to see that happen.
• 1:00:23
  Yeah, of course.
• 1:00:24
  Well, Connie, I think that might be it for our conversation today.
• 1:00:27
  Yeah, this has been fun.
• 1:00:33
  Yeah, yeah, definitely. And, you know, if you want to come on again and talk about something else, like we could always talk a little bit more about like whatever you want to talk about.
• 1:00:37
  Okay, that sounds great.
• 1:00:43
  All right. Sounds good. Okay, take care, Phill. Yeah, take care. And everyone, thanks for...
• 1:00:45
  Okay. Take care, Phill. Yeah. Take care.
• 1:00:47
  And everyone, thanks for listening in.
• 1:00:49
  We'll see you next time.
• 1:00:57
  Please visit our accessible website at www.disabilitypridepa.org. You can find us on social media at Disability Pride PA on Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok.