Latest / The Wild Idea / Dalton George: The Hellbender, The High Country, and the Fight to Keep Appalachia Wild

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Dalton George: The Hellbender, The High Country, and the Fight to Keep Appalachia Wild · The Wild Idea

• 0:00
  [upbeat music] Welcome to another conversation for a wild and connected world, what we call the Wild Idea Podcast. I'm Bill Hodge, along with my friend and co-host, Anders Reynolds. We have been leaning into our curiosity about the people, places, and policies that give us our system of wild places and connected landscapes. We had to make a shift for today's episode, and we will bring you our conversation with Brian Coker and Lamar Alexander on the Alexander Institute for Environmental Education and the Sciences a little bit later this summer. So our guest today is a very worthy fill-in. It is the Honorable Dalton George, mayor of Boone, North Carolina. And when I say Dalton wears a lot of hats, I mean, he wears a lot of hats. Dalton came up through the community organizing community, found a tenant rights organization, got elected to town council, pushed the city of Boone to become the first carbon-neutral municipality in North Carolina, and is now simultaneously serving as mayor and as the national organizing director for the Endangered Species Coalition. Man, that wears me out just reading that. Anders, h- could you keep up with a schedule like that?
• 1:11
  Oh, hi, Bill.
• 1:13
  No, I could not. I cannot believe all Dalton does, and the most amazing thing about him, as our listeners are about to discover, is I have [chuckles] never seen him turn his energy down, uh, below anything other than like a ten out of ten. Maybe it just takes that, that kind of personality to do all these things and to accomplish so much. But I'm-- I cannot wait for people to get to know Dalton. He's one of my favorite people I've gotten to know through, um, advocacy work, and I'm, I'm so glad he could step in, um, here. Uh, you know, Eastern spring break. Spring break comes with, you know, some regret and broken promises sometimes. You gotta, you gotta swerve. You gotta change plans, and that's what we had to do here in the last, last week of our spring break month, Eastern spring break month. But, as you said, we've got a very, very worthy fill-in. But, but Bill, before we get started, um, you know, we haven't really done this in a while. You and I are gonna be on the road a little bit this summer, and I think it might be a good idea to catch people up on where we're gonna be. Um, I think a lot of our listeners might be in some of these places, um, doing some of these same events that we've been invited to, um, speak at, and so we wanna make sure that you know we're coming your way. Bill's gonna run through the schedule. And, Bill, I hope I'm not like... I might be getting a little far ahead of things, but we're gonna have those new stickers with us in all these places.
• 2:38
  We are.
• 2:38
  Right?
• 2:38
  All, all of you who voted for, uh, what critters you want to see on our stickers, those stickers are, uh, actually going to print now, so we'll have these at, uh, all these events. You know, thinking about Dalton's schedule and how he keeps up with it, I'm very concerned that the two of us [chuckles] can keep up with the schedule that we have this summer. But I am excited to get out of this, this sort of virtual studio and get out in the real world. We've always enjoyed when we could do events live. You know, we had the episode with Senator Tina Smith that we did in DC. We got to record with Richard Preston in Missoula. You know, we've done a few of these things, and it's always fun when we can be face to face with our guests and, and, uh, super excited that we're not only gonna be able to be face to face with our guests, but maybe with some of you all in our audience. So let's talk about some opportunities for you guys to get out with us, depending on where you are, whether you're going to any of these events. You know, the first one is in May. This date is still being scheduled, but sometime in May, we're gonna be probably recording a couple episodes of the podcast right here, sort of in my hometown of Big Fork, Montana at Lake Baked, um, on the stage on one Saturday morning, and we'll let you guys know what that date is. So it kicks off in May with a couple great conversations with the Flathead Rivers Alliance and with a, a fly fisherman who found really cool ways to get young people engaged, uh, in the sport of fly fishing. Then we go to the virtual world again, and we'll be appearing at the National Wilderness Skills Institute. So if you work in the wilderness world and you are attending the National Wilderness Skills Institute virtually, we'll be having a conversation there about the future of stewarding our wild places. Super excited to do that.
• 4:19
  Later in June, uh, if you're sort of in the outdoor gear space and gonna be going to Switchback in New Orleans, we're gonna be with Paul Hendricks from the Conservation Alliance and a couple leaders from the outdoor industry to talk about the risk-reward of getting involved in the policies that shape our public lands for these outdoor brands. I'm super excited for that. So if you're gonna be in New Orleans, uh, for that, we'll be, we'll be there, uh, on June 17th fostering that conversation. Uh, and then a little bit, uh, later that same week [chuckles] we're, we're gonna be a little haggard by the time we get there. But, uh, we're both back and then Montana and attending the Old Salt Festival, and I'm really excited about being at the festival and the conversation we're gonna have there. So I hope you guys can join us for any and all of these events. We look forward to bringing you these conversations, whether you're able to attend in person or just listen to the episodes later. And again, as we wrap up our Eastern spring break, I, I kinda think it was appropriate that we had to pivot to Dalton because sometimes spring break on the East Coast involves going to the beach, but sometimes it involves going to the mountains. And in this case, we're going to the high country to Boone, North Carolina for this conversation with Dalton George, the mayor of Boone. Mr. Mayor, you've described yourself as a organizer first and an elected official second.
• 5:40
  How does that ordering show up in how you actually govern, and how do those two roles pull against each other, if they do?
• 5:47
  Yeah. Um, it's a, it's a really interesting, uh, world coming from the organizing space and, and running campaigns and working in professions that are about hollering at your mayor and telling them what to do, and then you become one, and you're like, "How, how do I reconcile this?" [chuckles] And, um, I think I'm still learning that, to be honest. If I had a perfect answer, um, I'd give it to you. But, but, uh, really the key o- of, of being an elected official from that organizer background is wanting to be as accessible as possible and just explain the process to folks. I can think of this one time we had this public hearing, and there was a number of people that were really upset, some young folks that were pushing for something, and I, like, paused the meeting and basically just gave them the timeline on how to continue to influence government consistently. You know, I named all the dates. I named, I named where to show up. And, um, somebody actually reached out to me after and was like, "I can actually tell that you were working as an organizer before this because you basically just, like, did the campaign for us." Um, but I really enjoy it, and I think it's, you know, trying to challenge what it means to be in elected office. Uh, I never did it because I wanted to, you know, feel important or, you know, some of these dynamics in small towns, somebody becomes a mayor, and they act like they're a US senator, and it's kind of embarrassing, and I hate to make fun of some of my colleagues in that way. But [chuckles] uh, so, so again, including people, making sure that you're accessible, and, um, yeah, that's, that's the organizer mentality. And I do think it makes me a better mayor. I feel like it, it helps me see, um, in some places that other elected officials might have blind spots. And, um, I feel like it makes people more encouraged to participate in this kind of governmental process 'cause they recognize, like, I'm all about everybody plugging in and being involved.
• 7:23
  Dalton, you founded, uh, Boone Fair Housing way back when. You've worked on voting rights.
• 7:29
  Yeah.
• 7:29
  And now you're running the Endangered Species Coalition's national grassroots operation, all while serving as mayor, the youngest mayor in North Carolina. Most people treat conservation as something that's in a separate lane from housing justice or, or voting rights. But you seem to view things a little differently. What connects all those, uh, issues for you?
• 7:55
  You know, housing in the high country, a lot of it really does impact our watershed, our water quality. It destroys habitat. Um, folks-- We, we had this one slumlord, uh, that was actually consistently dumping waste into the Watauga River, which is a really incredible place, and, um, was damaging the ecosystem. So when I was taking them on, you know, it was both for human health and safety, but also for the environment around us. And, and I think a lot of times, right, the, the development story, I always say this, and I told this to a high school class one time, and they thought I was very strange for it, but I've slowly worked this messaging in, and it, it's been embraced, where the story of a town like Boone and Appalachia is the story of working folks getting displaced, um, really at the whims of luxury developers, out of town, you know, forces, kind of big money. And the irony of that is that's the story of the hellbender, right? Like, if you're, if you're a long time Appalachian, um, and you're mad 'cause you can't live where your granddaddy was at, right, well, guess what? I've got a friend for you that's got the exact same experience. The, the waterways that he was in, um, no longer work for him because, you know, there's this big, uh, luxury condo, or there's this, you know, big strip mall that's been put there. And so, um, you know, housing's tied into that. That displacement of people also displaces wildlife. I think that's a very, uh...
• 9:11
  kind of unique to Appalachia. I mean, obviously we see that in rural communities across the nation, but there, there's very much that sentiment of working folks that are connected to the area being displaced. And then, you know, the voting rights lane is... I mean, I feel like if we had an election where everybody could participate, um, with limited barriers, we would have a lot more environmental and conservation folks in office, right? [chuckles] Like, it's that simple. We, we say this all the time, like, this is the mantra, uh, with ESC and so many other folks. You probably know this, Andrews. It's like the Endangered Species Act is incredibly popular. Like, to eighty-five percent of Americans, probably more, support it. And so, um, if we could just have an election where we weren't doing all this BS and trying to lock people out of the process, you'd be amazed at what folks were doing, uh, in the way of conservation. But I think it all really connects to this kind of background in me where, like, I love going up against a force that feels greater than me. Um, I love the underdog kind of thing. And so whether it's voting rights against a corrupt, uh, board of elections or, you know, this multimillion-dollar housing complex that's ripping people off or something like the ESA where you, you know, we're not, we're not the most well-funded organization, we're not, um, our movement isn't well-funded when you compare it to the industry forces that we're up against, like, that's what feeds my soul. Like, that's what I like to do. I like to, I like to take on fights like that.
• 10:29
  I love it. Uh, your energy is, is infectious, uh, Dalton. I'm assuming it's partially fueled by coffee from Stickboy maybe, but-
• 10:37
  Yeah, absolutely. Shout out to Stickboy.
• 10:40
  Yeah. [chuckles] Those of you who don't know, if you're ever in the high country anywhere near Boone, you gotta go to Stickboy, and I guess they've got other locations now. But, um, a recurring theme in your work is that local governments have to lead when federal and state governments won't. For example, you drove Boone to become the first carbon neutral municipality in North Carolina and later authored a resolution that put your city on record in support of the aforementioned hellbender protections. What inspired you to take those steps?
• 11:10
  I think that-You know, the heart of that is trying to just represent what the folks in your community believe. And you know, so often local governments don't wanna weigh in on these national issues. They're like, "That, you know, not my pig, not my farm." And you have an incredible voice, even in a state like North Carolina, where, you know, on paper, municipalities don't have a lot of power, right? I can't go out tomorrow and do rent control. I can't go out tomorrow and take on Duke Energy. I would probably do both those things if I could. Duke would be in trouble, right? Uh, but I can message, right? I can use that bully pulpit, and, and that's really the key of it. It's like, "Hey, I know people support the hellbender in my community. We put a mural up, conservatives, progressives, uh, Republicans, Democrats, they all identify with this creature. It means something to them. Um, what's stopping me from writing a resolution and trying to capture that energy?" And, and you know, you kinda stumble, like, into historic actions in that way, but it, it wasn't like I did research and was like, "Oh, let's, let's think of something we could do that's good for the ESA." That was just me listening to folks and obviously something that I'm personally passionate about too, so that helped. Um, but then come to find out that's, like, the second time I think a community has ever weighed in, uh, in the affirmative for a ESA listing. Mm, the first time was, like, way back in the '80s, so that's a cool thing to be a part of. I wish I could tell y'all all I wanted to do something historic, you know, I was paying attention, but, but it really wasn't that. It's like, that's what I'm hearing on the ground, and, um, you know, everybody can make public comment. Why can't a community? Why can't a community weigh into that? And same with the carbon neutral piece. I mean, I remember I was on a panel one time with some local electeds, and it was like, "What are you doing on the extinction crisis and the climate crisis?" And this was way before I worked for ESC. And he was like, "Well, local governments don't really do anything about that, so, like, you should talk to your state folks." And I felt really bad 'cause I like this guy, but I had to after, and I totally... I was like, "That is... I, I respectfully, I disagree, um, because we're all interconnected. Uh, we recognize that wildlife doesn't know if they're in Boone town limits or not, but small projects and small actions in Boone have benefited biodiversity. We, we put our money where our mouth was on a stream restoration. We went from four native fish species to, like, 16 in three or four weeks after that restoration project. Like, that's, that's meaningful. Um, and you don't have to go out and save the world
• 13:27
  with a local action."
• 13:28
  I love this love for the hellbender salamander. It, it... Your love might only be out- outpaced by Anders' obsession with the critter. What draws you to them? I mean, for listeners who don't know the hellbender, the, the snot otter, the, the mud devil, the lasagna lizard,
• 13:45
  give us the full pitch. Why should someone care about a two-footed salamander hiding under a rock in a cold mountain stream?
• 13:52
  Well, um, I mean, you kinda hit it. The nicknames alone make it worth fighting for, right? And Anders has the Arkansas connection, which there, you know, there's a population there in Arkansas, and there's a population in Appalachia. Um, you know, there is something obviously charismatic about it, almost because it shouldn't be charismatic because it is such a strange creature, and that, that's a piece of it. Um, but I think it just, again, it represents this place I grew up in. Like, where the hellbender's habitat is in North Carolina, where I live, and recognizing that's a member of my community in its own different way. And, um, the... It, it just... It feels like it represents this place. Um, a- and that's... It's really as simple as that. I think it... There's something really magical when a community that has so many different people can look at a species or a, or something like a, a view like Grandfather Mountain, right, Bill, which you'd be familiar with, and say, "That represents us." The, you know, the profile of Grandfather Mountain represents Watauga County. That's, that's land worth fighting for, right? That's like, that makes us wanna do the Public Lands Fighter. This hellbender represents the waters we spend time in. And so as much as I just think they're really cool, you know, it's the last dragon, it's also like, yeah, that's home, and, and a- a Boone without it and a Watauga County without it I think would be a worse place, not, not just from the scientific lens, but the cultural, like, piece, right? Like, and that representation. And, and I think I'm, like, all about the ecology because without the hellbender, you know, we're not gonna be able to enjoy the same type of trout fishing we do and the same clean waters and all these things. I mean, those are tied together. Um, but to me, a- as much as the ecological piece is important, that cultural piece is important as well, and the loss of a symbol, um, would, would hurt me, you know, and, and hurt my community.
• 15:32
  The last dragon. That's what they called me in high school. Uh, Dalton, our, our love of hellbenders is not the only thing we've got in common. I mean, as Bill can attest to, we're both extremely attractive, very charming. In fact, the only [chuckles] the only text I've gotten since this podcast started was someone who said, "Are you interviewing Dalton right now? Y'all should only hang out with some supervision,"
• 15:54
  [laughs]
• 15:54
  Which I really love.
• 15:56
  Well, I'm glad I'm here to try to keep you two knuckleheads under control.
• 16:00
  I wanna dig in a little bit more to that ecology question. So Hurricane Helene hit your home hard. It hit that whole region hard. Hellbenders were found washed up, you know, across mountainsides and wandering on roads, and there's estimates that some of the populations have declined as much as, as two-thirds from what they were pre-Hurricane Helene. And because they're considered such an indicator species, as you mentioned, because they can only be present in cool and clean water, in fact, they require that to breathe, um, you know, researchers describe them as a climate bellwether, and protecting the hellbender is, in a real sense, as you mentioned, protecting pristine water for everyone. You know, it feels to me like that framing hasn't broken through. Maybe I'm wrong. Um,
• 16:47
  b- but if I'm right, why hasn't that framing broken through? I mean, you were working on the federal listing resolution just four months after Helene. What was the mood in Boone at that moment, and what made you push forward on that specifically?
• 17:02
  Well, I think you're absolutely right in the sense that, y-you know, the, the hellbender is so tied to clean water and also hurricane recovery. And so the listing being slowed down, I, I think, also represents this continual failure of Western North Carolina in hurricane recovery, because additional environmental protections to our waterways as we recover through listing the species, um, would help Western North Carolinians and, and community health, and, you know, natural health in, um, so many other ways. I will say, you know, in my neck of the woods, I think the mood was really supportive. I think a lot of folks get that. I think elsewhere, you know, it's a little bit more complicated. And what we saw post-Feline is so many people that were trying to, like, shape the narrative didn't live there. They were, like, getting paid by... Like, I mean, this sounds, like, conspiratorial. There's this guy on Twitter, he's in Asheville, and he just, like, tweeted through the storm. It was just like, "They're only given seven hundred and fifty dollars." He became, like, a celebrity. And the noise out there, right, from people just making things up for political points made having any conversations like, "Hey, the importance of environmental protections," or, "Hey, how can we actually get people some help?" really difficult. A-and to be honest, like, that's what pissed me off the most about a lot of the dialogue, was that somebody that was, like, on the front lines, like, I embedded with our public works staff and was, like, going out there and, and doing, like, physical recovery work for, like, two or three weeks. I didn't have, like, a phone that worked, you know, no cell service. And then I log on to the internet, and the whole dialogue's from people that aren't even in the mountains, [chuckles] you know, saying, you know, who or what failed and what we should be talking about. And it's like, dude, if that doesn't get your goat, I don't know what will. Like, and it's, um-- And that's kind of... That, I think, is part of the piece, that, that connection as far as environmental protections, you know, recovery of the hellbender and, and hurr-hurricane recovery, um, was harder to make because the noise... Like, and I really can't think of-- And there will probably never be another time in my life where I'm so intimately involved. I'm in elected office, I'm doing this thing, and then I'm also cut off from the world. I can't look at news, I can't read the internet. And you log back on two weeks later, and you see everybody talking about stuff that's not true, the, the, this kind of narrative culturally and, and nationally. Like, the cart, you know, had left the horse [laughs] in that way. And, um, I, I was kind of amazed. So, um, you know, one of the funniest examples of that is, like, they were like, "Boon tried to prevent Amish people from building homes." And it was, like, this picture of these Amish folks that came up and were building homes. But, like, that wasn't true. Like, the town didn't do any of that. But that became, like, a mega viral, like, lame Facebook meme. And, you know, as somebody that was, like, covered in muck for two weeks straight and, and risking life and limb to help people to, like, get back and be like, "Oh, I was bullying the Amish who were trying to provide a home." Uh, like, that's really unfortunate to hear. Uh, but that's tied to the hellbender too in that way, right? It's, it's so hard to have these honest conversations.
• 19:49
  We step aside for a word from our sponsor, and we'll be right back with more of the conversation.
• 19:54
  Hi, I'm Leslie Miller with Backcountry Horsemen, and you're listening to The Wild Idea. Okay, Dalton, I've got to ask you about your national role. Um, there's a conversation happening in conservation circles, uh, right now about the gap between national environmental organizations and the communities most directly affected by what they're fighting for. And I've heard some criticism, fair criticism, I would say, that conservation groups just don't know how to organize the way they used to, that we've lost that muscle that w-really used to go out there and accomplish, for example, citizen-driven wilderness bills on the reg. Um, as someone who sits inside both worlds, local government and national advocacy, do you see that gap? And, and if so, where do you see that gap most clearly? Yeah, I mean, I think in terms of just a ladder for folks to get involved, and I mean, we talk about that a lot in the organizing space, like these ladders of engagement. Um, but I come from... So, like, before ESC, I worked for Down Home North Carolina, which we did, like, regional organizing. Like, it was really oriented around leadership development, but, like, intentionally going out and finding people that represent your community. So, like, you know, you find folks that are struggling with housing to lead your housing campaigns. You find folks that are dealing with the environmental pollutant to lead your, um, your environmental campaign. Like, the idea of you doing that as a staffer was, like, that's like, why would you do that? Like, what would-- what do you know about that? Like, and if that person isn't ready to run that campaign, you work to develop them to get them to that point, right? Because then they can advocate for themselves and their community and, you know, it lends itself to the movement more broadly. And I think the Endangered Species Coalition is really one of the, the, the organizations that has really worked to understand that and, and extended this leash to, to give me time in, in this space to, like, build a relationship with people. I'll use an example. This, um, this school teacher is taking some actions with us through this little, like, training program we do called the Biodiversity Movement School. And I've continued to check in with her over the course of a year, right? And, and the national scale, y'all are like, "Oh my gosh, why are you spending time checking in with one person over the course of a year?" And it's like, because she wants to get involved in the movement, because she believes in wildlife advocacy. She's passionate about it. Uh, she wants to organize. And, like, that has been an incredibly rewarding process. She's, she's met with her house rep alongside the students of her class, right? She's brought them to go to Sara's office, God bless them, [chuckles] and torn them up. And like, "What the hell are you doing on, on, uh, you know, wolf delisting? What are you doing on this?" Um, and so instead of just having her attend a webinar, right, and say, "Thanks for calling your rep, we're never talking again," or signing an email petition, it's like understanding her own reason for doing it, um, advocating for her to be able to grow into the type of person where she can do that on her own continually and bring new folks in. And I think once we get to national scale in this movement, like it, it's really hard from a capacity lens to build those types of relationships. And also because, like, in this funding world and, and all this, it's like the numbers game matters. It's like, do you want to have fifteen hundred people in the webinar that might not know what to do for wildlife the next week unless you tell them directly? Or would you rather have ten people that, um, you've cultivated that are telling everybody in their life about the ESA Amendments Act, about this legislation, about what they could do? And I mean, honestly, my answer is, like, I'd rather have those ten people, you know, that are training and pulling people into the movement. And I think that's what used to happen. I think we've moved away from that. So, you know, ESC is doing a good job of, of trying to let me build into that a little bit more. And, um, I think there's other organizations doing a great job there. And it means sometimes you work in the evening because that's when working people aren't at their day jobs. It means sometimes you got weird hours. But I think it's worthwhile, and I think it's what's got to happen if we want to win anything.
• 23:32
  Just a couple more questions for you, Dalton. Let's talk-More ab-about the national advocacy role of yours. You're in Washington right now to lobby on behalf of the endangered species that we've been talking about. Um, and the morning we're recording this is the day after you guys kinda got a really nice win yesterday. I'm curious what the work on the Hills looked like, and who are you talking to, sort of what's been the pitch on particularly this endangered species amendment, uh, bill that you guys have been pushing back against. What's, what's the environment you've been working in on the Hill, would you say?
• 24:06
  Well, it's been really interesting. I was with the Southeast team, and, and, you know, Andrews paid me a compliment earlier. The first time I ever did this lobbying thing, I was, uh, on the Andrews team, and watching him and my colleague, Joel Tomasulo, work, it was very intimidating 'cause they're pros. And for whatever reason, they let me lead a Southeast team, uh, this time. So I tried to channel my inner Andrews and, um, was not as handsome as him unfortunately, so I didn't get-
• 24:27
  Oh, please
• 24:27
  ... all the smiles and laughs. [laughs]
• 24:28
  We've gotta stop this Andrews is a pro stuff.
• 24:32
  [laughs]
• 24:33
  Let's, let's talk about-
• 24:34
  Dude
• 24:34
  ... the people you are because I got enough of this Andrews like good-looking pro because we all know that that's not true. But sounds like someone's intimidated.
• 24:43
  Um, well, I appreciate... I, you know, it was, it was a learning experience. But it was, Southeast team, we had some targets, and, um, you know, we had teams from all across the nation meeting, um, with real key votes, um, on this ESA Amendments Act. And there was a world where we thought for sure they voted on it yesterday. We didn't really know how it was gonna go. And, um, as we're on the Hill, as we're meeting with these offices, they pulled it. And, and the stories that you've read in things like the New York Times is, uh, opposition played a part, right? The Republicans got scared, the folks that were leading on this, the, the folks that were, um, really fighting, uh, uh, against the ESA, working to undermine it. Um, Bruce Westerman, the, the individual that introduced the bill, they, they recognized they didn't have the votes, and they pulled it. And, um, like you said, Bill, it's kinda rare that you get a win like that, especially when you're on the Hill. And for somebody like me, that only comes, um, very rarely. That was, that was special. Um, but I think the most important thing is that shows like the potency in this, right? [laughs] Like you bring regular people across the nation to DC to say, "This doesn't represent us," and that works. And it sounds kitschy, right? [laughs] Like it sounds so cliché. Um, but that's like the one thing that I think everybody needs to understand is there is still such an immense amount of power you have by just getting folks to the Hill to share what matters to them and, and why they're passionate, um, about wildlife. And I saw that in my meetings and was lucky enough to have some folks with a lot of skin in the game that, um, that, that made it very easy, where I could just lean on them. I'd, I'd start the meeting, I helped schedule it, and then these folks shared their stories. And, um, you know, the Florida folks worked really hard, New Jersey, um, New York, Pennsylvania. I mean, we had people from all over. Um, and, and to share that space too was really nice 'cause so much of this work is also in the remote world. So to come to DC, to hang out, to get a win, to bring people to the Hill for the first time, like that was really spiritually fulfilling. And, uh, who knows if it comes back. I know we gotta be like cautious about being like, "Oh, we, we did it." You know, you never wanna be George Bush with mission accomplished and then next week it's back on. Um, that's like the last thing we wanna do. So if anybody's listening, please continue, um, to put that pressure on, to stay vigilant. Um, but it is a... It's definitely something to celebrate.
• 26:53
  You've said that politicians who vote against wildlife protections are often out of step with their own constituents, that corporate agriculture and big developers
• 27:03
  are driving those votes more than public opinion. Uh, to use a high country phrase maybe, the fox is in the henhouse. Uh, and if you live in Boone, you'll know what I mean by that. When you're sitting across from a congressional staffer from a rural district, how do you make that case that they're out of step without sounding like it's an attack?
• 27:22
  Well, I ask where they're from, and then when they tell me New Jersey, you know, then I just get up and leave the meeting. No, I'm kidding. [laughs] But that, that happens a lot. That surprises me. That's a, that's maybe a joke for another time. I, you know, it's... [clears throat] I think at the end of the day, like it, it's really about values. And I think I recognize that there are lobbyists all the time meeting with these folks. Again, to your point, like the, the fox is in the henhouse representing the industry, really pushing this angle. Um, and that's something I really appreciate, this like candid, authentic approach with, with just a constituent, right? Or somebody like me. And, um, I'm able to, and when I'm meeting with the North Carolina delegation, I'll say this like, "I'm, I'm the mayor of Boone, North Carolina," right? Like I get what it's like to be an elected official, and I also get what it, what it's like to represent, um, represent your community and, and, and take tough votes and get in trouble sometimes, right? Sometimes you get a break from, um, your party or the norm or, or whatever. I mean, I, I, I understand that. Um, but really, what good are you if you're not willing [laughs] to shake it up every once in a while if you feel like that's what your people care about, right? Um, and, and I think that that's just, that's the, the value to underline. And, you know, how to do that professionally, I don't really know. But I think it, it, it is the, it's the personal stories from the constituents, um, and it's providing the information. Uh, when you're sitting with a staffer, sometimes I'm surprised that, you know, you'll flag something like the ESA Amendments Act and, and they'll say, "Well, we've not really been tracking this a lot." And, and so to that point, again, for the listeners, if you're really upset about a bill and you call an office, there's a chance that you might get a staffer on the phone that's like, "We haven't been tracking that, but this call means we're gonna look into it," [laughs] right? And if it's a game time decision, and that person's going to the floor and they're like, "How do I vote?" [laughs] Like your call might have made that difference. Um, sometimes it really is that chaotic in the sense of, "Yeah, we haven't looked into that."
• 29:09
  Yeah. I, I, I, I j- I wanna underline that. You never know. It's really easy to go, "Oh, my action's not gonna matter," but you never know. You never know if that next phone call you might, might be the one that gets a staffer to get their member to look into an issue. And so I think that's a perfect place to wrap this up. We wanna be respectful of your time. We know you're in DC wearing your hat as a organizer for the Endangered Species Coalition. But we've loved having you on here also as the mayor of Boone, North Carolina. So Dalton, I just wanna take this chance to say thank you for joining us in a very crazy schedule.
• 29:44
  Yeah. Well, thank you both. Bill, great to know that there's a fellow from Newton out there fighting for wildlife. Um, that makes me very happy. Anders, I won't hold it against you that you didn't come to the Nationals game, but it is very un-American of you. Uh, he missed-
• 29:57
  [laughs]
• 29:57
  ... that opportunity last night. I'll call him out on the pod. And, uh, gentlemen, when I get more time and I'm, you know, situated in Boone, would love to chat, um, and host y'all whenever. And, and again, just appreciate all you do and, and, um, really kind of the message you continue to spread. So thanks, guys.
• 30:12
  We appreciate you. Congrats to you and everybody who worked so hard on this win this week. I hope you guys get to enjoy it. Bill and I got, um, a message from our s- friend Sam the other day that reminded us that, you know, every single time, the only thing standing between the land and the bulldozer, or in this case, a species and a bulldozer, is ordinary people who decide somehow that this is worth their Sunday afternoon. So I appreciate you spending your week up here, Dalton, and for sharing some of your wisdom and energy with us, man. Thanks.
• 30:40
  Yeah. Thank y'all.
• 30:41
  Coming up on The Wild Idea podcast, we go from the southeast to the southwest in a deep dive on the Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument in southern Utah. Also coming up, a feature on the adventure scientists. For everything we cover on The Wild Idea, sign up for our newsletter at thewildidea.com. If you would like to support our work, you can find a link to Buy Me a Coffee on our website. You can also recommend us to a friend or give us a good review on your podcast player of choice. It is all greatly appreciated. We love sharing our curiosity with you, and if you have something you're curious for us to explore, drop us a note, again, at that website, thewildidea.com. We look forward to seeing all of you on down the trail.
• 31:19
  The Wild Idea is a production of Wild Idea Media and hosted by Bill Hodge and Anders Reynolds. Production and editing by Bryn Russell at PodLab. Digital support by Holly Wilkoszewski at Daypack Digital. Our theme music, Springhill Jack, is from Railroad Earth and was composed by John Keahan. Our executive producer and ringleader is Laura Hodge. You can find The Wild Idea wherever you listen to or download your favorite podcast. If you have a minute, please take a minute to give us a rating, and if you really like us, we hope you'll subscribe. Learn more about us at thewildidea.com. [outro music]