Latest / CASTLcast / 4 | It Matters Who the Teachers Are - with Grayson Gunn

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4 | It Matters Who the Teachers Are - with Grayson Gunn · CASTLcast

• Jake: Well welcome back to Castle Cast, the official podcast here. So gr really excited today to have Grayson Gunn on the show. How you doing today, Grayson? Doing well. Thanks for having me. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I'm excited about this. maybe a jumping off point could be this article that was published about two weeks ago, I think. is that right? in the two weeks. Yeah. Yeah. Through Circ, or how do you say that? Circe. Cersei. Circe. basically an a kind of institute, a think tank for classical education for those that aren't familiar, is that right? Yeah, they so they have a place for people to publish articles. They host a few conferences every year and they publish curriculum. So all sorts of things. Yeah. Yeah. And so I the for those that haven't read the article, I guess you were doing some reflecting on the role of a teacher, or maybe this some other reflection actually caused you to reflect for yourself how you were embodying the role of a teacher. Yeah, I would say that since I am a teacher, I'm constantly thinking about, you know, how can I improve my craft. So it just wasn't even something I was directly thinking about, but during advent last year. I'm doing, you know, lots of readings about John the Baptist. And then I just get hit with that line, right? Christ asking the followers of John, What is it that you went into the wilderness to see? And it just struck me as like okay. We have these students in class hours and hours every week. Like, what is it that they take away from that time? Right. Like thinking of them in the future, reflecting on that question, like what has stuck with me throughout all of that time. So that it just sort of happened naturally wasn't yeah. Something I was trying to think of. Yeah, no, I love that. John the Baptist is such a compelling figure and as you rightfully, you know, reflect in the article, it's very striking to me, like, yeah, these people did not have to go out into the desert. There's nothing else out there that was drawing them except for this this prophet. figure of John the Baptist. Yeah. And and so, you know, what I gather from your article is, you know, kind of a deep reflection of, you know, what is it that you're offering to the students that is compelling them to to want to be there, to want to come to the classroom. Yeah, and to some extent we have a different challenge because the students aren't necessarily willfully doing this, right? You know. They're being sent here. We hope that they want to be here. But, you know, there are always times where it will be challenging for them to be in the classroom. And so what can we do to really captivate them like John the Baptist did for his followers? Like how can we make it so that this isn't just something they, you know, are checking off and doing because they have to do, but they are compelled and excited to go into the classroom to read the works that they're reading and to hear what their teachers have to say. Right, right, right. Yeah. And so this was the Institute for Classical S you know education, right, that that published this article. And I I'm I'm kinda curious, What do you think about the article drew them, you know, I guess into this idea? like i is some of the artic ideas that you expressed in this article closely related to classical education and the classical education model. Can you draw that out for us listeners? Yeah, I think something that's common regardless of what your views are of classical education, is this view of it's about the whole person. And that's that's what drew me to classical education is this it's very holistic. It's about life. It's not disconnected from life. It's not simply about getting to that next step, you know, getting the grades that you need to get into the college you want to get into. It's not just about that climbing the career ladder. Although I do believe that it helps with that. But more deeply it's about what are we doing here and now to help this person as a human being. So it's directly connected to our mission at Chesterton of fundamentally we are raising saints. That's our goal. Yeah. And there are other things that we accomplish while doing that, but that is the the very heart, the very center of what we're doing. Yeah, for sure, for sure. in the in the article you fleck reflected a lot on sort of where the teacher finds the young lady or young man, you know, in his teenage years, you know, can kind of paint a picture for us of, you know, who who is the one that's coming into the classroom at this kind of age, state in life. You know, how would you describe that? Yeah, I used a quote from Aristotle's book on rhetoric, where he talks about he he actually puts side by side the old and the young to say, okay, you know. Here's what it's like to be in let's say in your teenage years. He doesn't use that word, but you know, t the youth are very passionate, right? Most of their mistakes are from going over the top, is basically what he says. Yeah. And obviously there are challenges with that. I think I said in the article, like this sort of passionate nature is dangerous, but those passions are good, right? And they can be provided they're given the right direction. They can be used for so much good. And I think we'd rather see that in the classroom, like a little too much energy, too much enthusiasm rather than someone who is just apathetic towards life. Sure. So Aristotle will then go on to talk about, you know, the danger of the old is that they're miserly, they're cynical, they're very calculating, right? They're small souled rather than great souled, or at least that's the temptation. so I think that is what we see in the classroom, and that's the We should just embrace like this is what it's like at this age, and then do what we can to sort of work with that, provide the right direction, the right discipline in the classroom so that they put that energy towards things that are good and use their freedom for for good. Sure, sure. And and I get the sense, you know, so they ha they have a heart that is that is looking for truth, hopefully. in most cases, yes, certainly here at Chesterton. And so th they're looking for things that are real, perhaps, is be a better way of saying that. And so their passions are are as as passionate young people, they're they're looking for what's real and they want to be shown, you know, in any particular class, you know, whether it's philosophy or theology or geometry or biology, you know, show me why this matters. Yeah. And so, you know, I that that was kind of like a a a call, a call to teachers that you put out there, you know, to r to respond to that for the sake of the young people, to to show them, hey, like, yes, there's there's goodness here. This this stuff is awesome. and that's something that that can't be faked. Correct, right. Yeah, I think an another point that I really tried to harp on in the article is yeah, like they're drawn to people who really believe in something. I mean, we all are, right? Like pop stars or athletes, right? These are people that young people just look up to, right? And they want to imitate because it's like, look at this person who is just pouring themselves out completely into the thing that they love. Right. Right. So that that also struck me with John the Baptist. Like they're drawn to this man who is just He's completely bought in on this mission, right? He's sold everything. He lives in the desert. He eats locusts and wild honey. Right. He's he's not just trying to teach them something and going off and living his life that's separate from what he's teaching. It's like what he is teaching is giving them who he is, what he believes in, and what he's built his life around. Yeah. So that's a that's a challenge for me as a teacher. Like the things that I'm presenting to my students, the truths that I want them to see. Am I actively trying to embody this in my own life? And if I'm not, why would I expect them to leave my class like bought in on something that I'm not even bought in on? Sure. Yeah. Yeah. A a great question. And and and therefore, sort of a model that you proposed is students and teachers kind of traveling along the way together. But not quite like a in a little bit of a paradoxical way. Ultimately like the the heart of a good friendship is this pursuit of the good. And I do think we can share in that with students. Right. But yeah, there is a little bit of a paradox because friend friendship is usually something shared between equals and a teacher is an authority and the student is, you know, is the disciple, the one being taught. Sure. So that yeah, there is this kind of neat tension I think of like we are friends in in this shared mission. Yeah. And I think as Catholics it makes that easier because like, you know, the most important part of our day when we go to mass, it's like we're we're in this together, right? We're all disciples, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Being mentored by Christ who is the he's the ultimate teacher. Right. So we have those moments where it it it allows for this sense of friendship to be there even while within the school we are the authority. Right, right, yeah. Yeah, Aristotle talks about you know, unequal friendships. But then and hopefully the teacher knows a little bit more about the subject than the students do. but you know leaving open I guess the the the the fact that they still have more to learn. They w there is more that they want to learn. They're they're still like on this journey of increasing their body of knowledge. all at the service, as you were just saying, of knowing, you know, the one. Right. Right. Our source and end. And so It it seems to me that this like paradoxical vision is very much a part of what kind of what is meant by classical education, in the sense of you know some of the ideas that I hear about classical education, you know, the Socratic method, for example, of discussion, seminar. you know, it's not just not just didactic, you know, one-way empirical. impartation of education, but there's a sense of Together can have more and more insights even beyond what I could impart to you by myself. Yeah, there's a there's a quote. I forget where I heard this. I heard it sometime within the last couple months. And the person said, God cares more about your freedom than your efficiency. So maybe another article down the line. But what I've been thinking about with that in connection to classical education, like you're saying, is Our goal is not just to get them to memorize these facts as efficiently as possible. Like how quickly can we get through Dante? Yeah. And they, you know, they've memorized all the circles. And is that really our goal? Or is our goal to linger and allow these insights from these great works to like seep into their soul? Right. And like actually help them to become a free, a more free human being. Right. So I'm like, all right. If God cares more about our freedom than our efficiency and he gives us so much freedom, we need to be doing that as teachers as well. So that's again like a a wake up call for me because I think that's always a danger. Like how can I get them to see this as quickly as possible? Yeah. As opposed to how can I sort of let the conversation linger, help them to come to this insight on their own, rather than me simply saying, Here's what Dante's trying to tell us here. All right, let's move on to the next conto. Right. Right. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I mean, much of education in the twenty first century is kind of designed around that. You know, there's certain standardized levels of you know, competence that we've sort of decided, you know, well, you know, okay, by this age you should know this and by this age you should show know this and you should be able to show, you know, competence by being able to, you know, demonstrate these methods of calculus or what have you. Right. And and then like, okay, good, you're educated. But what what have we educated them for and you know, where have we led them? through that education. Right. And is it just about fulfilling some function in society, that's a service to a community or the state, or is there and you and you're speaking about this, right? The kind of the heart of classical education is recognizing that you know That we're trying to really form a whole person here. Right. And I again like another paradox, like I think one that Chesterton would like and probably has talked about in and certain of his works, but by making our focus on forming a free and whole person, that is ultimately what the church needs, what the state needs, what our communities need, what our families need, is that thing. Yeah. So again, by like If you put first things first, you get second things thrown in, right? And if you make second things the most important, you end up losing both first things and second things. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I wanna circle back to this idea of, you know, the teacher must be totally caught up. I I I love the way you kinda ended the article. Like, okay, yes, like strategies are important, lesson plans are important, thoughtful assessments are important. But first you need a rich soul. A soul that is totally captivated by the search for truth with a capital T. Mm. Hey, you know. And I've left everything behind. I'm willing to eat the locusts. I'm willing to be out there in the desert, you know, away from the distractions perhaps that that are so easy to get caught up into. Yeah. So that I'm that I'm, you know, I'm one hundred percent available to that that search. And and so then it seems like the job then of a classical school that is, you has that vision in mind, that goal in mind, that supporting parents by Holding true like a the ultimate end of education. It's very important to find faculty, staff who are caught up in that that search. Right. Yeah. Can you speak a little bit towards that? Yeah, again, I think this is ultimately like what they need. And like part of me writing this article was reflecting back on my own education, like, okay, what yeah, what do I actually remember? Who were the teachers that impacted me and why did they impact me? Yeah. And thinking about it was because they were people bought in on the mission and I could see what they were teaching was affecting the the way that they lived their life. So that's that's ultimately what they need. And I think as you're saying, like parents as primary educators, how can we best help them to educate their students here? It's by putting them around people who are bought in, primarily bought in on the on their Christian faith, right? Their Catholic faith, being having a relationship with Christ, like if that isn't central. you know, what what else really matters at the end of the day. Sure. Yeah. And yes, like I said, those other things are important. Right. Like you do you do need to have order in the classroom. Right. Right. You need to have ways of actually assessing like, am what is what I'm teaching getting through to the students. So it's not that those things are important, but as we've been saying, like they're they're secondary to this being a person who loves truth and is seeking it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. as a new teacher on the staff, I've been kind of you know looking for feedback from you know, how how am I doing? Right. And some of the parents that I know from the community, you know, they've been asking, you know, so how's it going, Jake? You know? Like and often I wanna throw it back to them. It's like, well you you tell me. Right, right. Your son's in my class, your daughter's in my class. Right. You know, I like you tell me how it's going. Like I'm enjoying it. Then one of the after I said that, you know, one of the dads, you know, stops me and he says, Look, if you're having fun, they'll have fun because they can tell who wants to be here and who doesn't. Yeah. And, you know, I think that is true. Like, you know, in a sense, you know, young people have have an eye towards that, right? They can tell when we're in love with a subject and like you as as you were just saying, you know Is it having an impact on our life? Is it is it causing us to the things that we're discussing, these great things that we're reading and thinking about and learning, is it causing us to, you know, throw everything else away, you know, shedding off the the baggage of our life or what have you, so that we can travel faster towards him who made us. Right. And so I I love that that image that you've created here with John the Baptist. Yeah, it's fun. Yeah. And to your point, I think we it's always good as teachers to get that feedback. Right. It if if you have a teacher that you love and you think, they're so good at their craft, they know it. Teachers love and and need that feedback of like, thank you for this. Like that really got through to me or Yeah. And vice versa, right? As teachers, we need to give that to our students when they are doing something good. We show them like, that's good work. Right. Like Yeah. Keep doing that thing. We need more of that. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. So the other day, you said something that I thought was rather insightful. And you said that the culture of friendship that we try to create here is is not incidental to the learning that's happening here. I was wondering if you could sort of speak a little bit to that. Yeah, I think what What I was getting at when I said that was that the classroom, rather than just being like, we do the class thing and then it's good to for students to have friendships with each other and for teacher and student to bond outside of the classroom. That is important. But again, to me, like the classroom is the place where these friendships can be formed, where these conversations can be had that are are showing that You know, we're we're all seeking after this good. We're we're all united in this mission. Like those are the best moments that I've had as a teacher is when it feels the the atmosphere of the room almost changes, like we're all kind of locked in on this idea together and like what we're listening to we want more of. Right. Or you're reading about a a saint, let's say, and you're like, Wow, like we're all we wanna be more like that. Yeah. So yeah, I think that was That that's just something I've been thinking about as well. Like how how can we utilize the classroom as a place not just where we check off boxes and do the efficient things, but like where that pursuit of the good and those relationships can actually be formed and take place. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. do have Lyceum, there is a time for recreation. You know, of course the students do like to utilize also the passing period. but talking about the classroom is like this also sacred place of friendship. and of course you mention mentioned already the mass, right? Where we go and grow in our friendship with God. as together as a community, students and faculty all you know facing the same direction. Sort of like the great equalizer in the church. Yeah. which is fun. But And then we have like the classroom, right? And so that is also a place of friendship, which is interesting. Did you did you make that point in relation to the apology, I think? You were you st were you guys reading the apology in class? We just finished the sophomores just finished reading the apology. So I may have said that. And I think Socrates is just the he's a a perfect example of this. Yeah. That his friendship with the people that he's dialoguing with. Right. Like the education is taking place in the context of a friendship. Right. In it's happening in life. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. So for him, like it's not like, I do this teaching thing and then I go to this other job. It's like that was just a part of who he was. Yeah. Yeah. Right. He was He was doing that everywhere he was going. So it's not like, we stop being friends so that we can do education. Mm. Mm. Like you're you're severely limiting what education is by having that perspective, I think. Wow, yeah. So Let me put it this way. So so Socrates, his very being, he has the heart of a teacher. And he he lives authentically human friendship. And so in the person of Socrates, we see these two sort of virtues. If we can call it that. Can we call it that? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, sure. Okay. that that he's embodying as a lover of wisdom. And then the effect of that is something that for you know for millennia we have looked back on as we read his writings, say, wow, okay, this guy did it right. And so he becomes a model for us in twenty twenty six of of what it of what a good teacher looks like. It's happening in this context of friendship, it's happening in life. He's not He's he's not living like like the in the silos like you were just saying. Right, right. This is this is his life. He is a teacher at heart. He's not he's not thinking, you know, I'm okay, now I'm putting on my teacher hat, I'm walking into the classroom, walking into the school. I but no, that's just who he is. Right. And people were attracted to that. They would go to him, they would follow him around, you know, discussing things with him, wanting to to learn about his worldview and his lookout I'll I'll I'll look on life. So that's that's really cool. And and a lot of ways, similar to John the Baptist. Right. Yeah, I remember the a school I taught at previously. I had a student say something to me in philosophy class, like, Well, of course you'd care about this, like you're a teacher. And I said, No, it's the other way around. Like I decided to become a teacher because I love having these conversations. I think these things are worth talking about. Because they're they're human things. Yeah. Like I it wasn't that I was born knowing I was gonna be a teacher, right? That yeah. It I wasn't even planning on doing that. And but it was because I developed a love for these things and saw these are worth sharing and we need to pass this on to the next generation. Right. Right. We need to help them think deeply and think well and write critically and have a love for the good. So it's because those things are primary that then like, all right. Yeah, teaching is great. You know. Yeah. We have a a school and an environment where time is set aside to read these books and to talk about these things. Like that's a rare opportunity. Yeah. Yeah. For sure, for sure. I'm thinking now about a comment that Dr. Schimpf made, our headmaster, around merits. And and he was just thinking about, you know, okay, students that had received merits from teachers. And he r it was a reflection on the fact that yeah, there are cases where a teacher can give a merit to a student, because he just happened to notice it. But it's much more likely for the teacher to recognize that good behavior if there's been built already some kind of relationship and friendship there. Because we're much more likely to notice that. And so one of the I think the vision of this school, we'll be talking about this a little bit on the podcast. you know, okay, what what kind of school do we want? We want a school where people don't gossip. We want a a school where people cheer each other on. We see this in the classrooms here, where the the students are constantly applauding each other. this this joyous spirit of, hey, like, you know, you put yourself out there. Let's celebrate that. Right. And and so a culture that I I guess I would call it at the end of the day, like it's it's culture of friendship. Right. precisely because there are certain like virtues that we want and and vices that we don't want you know, as a community, as a community of learning, because those virtues help us to become the people that we want to be. Right. And so then I guess going back to this idea of r you know, the relationship building, you know, okay, so this ends up being the sort of a challenge for for all the members of the community, for the students among themselves, you know, the teachers and the students, right? What kind of relationships have been built? You know, are we Are we making an effort to really get to know each other? 'cause then we'll notice even more virtues. And then and also, you know, the places where we have room for improvement. And and we'll be able to to offer that, you know, friendly correction. Hey, you know, I think you can be more than that. I think you are more than that. You're better than that. And I and I want that better version of yourself for you. So so I think that's interesting consequence of that inherent friendship that would be present in an in a school that's I guess like everything's pointing in the right direction. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess it's kinda like where you ended the article this this essay that you wrote. Like maybe keep calling it a article, I don't know. And the and the essay you you ended it with the like why it really matters in this day and age, like now more than ever, young people need I guess, the role of the teacher. Yeah. So Chesterton has this quote in his book, What's Wrong with the World? And in that book, he's addressing like education, the family, and just sort of cultural problems that he's seeing in the world. And he has a a quote about education. He says, The problem today isn't that there are too many people uneducated, but there's too too many people over educated. What does he mean by that? So what he means by that and how I think it's connected to the world we live in today, even more so, is that he's like they're not like a sheep without a shepherd. They're like a sheep with five hundred shepherds yelling at them, telling them what to do. And even I mean, for us, like this is my experience. If I ever go on YouTube and you start watching videos, you're like, This person saying this about my health, and this person saying this about my posture, and this and that, like so many voices. Yeah. are entering our heads. Even as adults, it's overwhelming. But when you're a teenager and you're just surrounded by voices and opinions, right, there's this over education. So I th I think that something that we really need to provide is not just more information for them. Cause they don't they wouldn't need to come here to get information. It's everywhere. Yeah. Right. Yeah. What they need from us is a way of ordering the information that is out there. Right. And ultimately I think what they need is wisdom. Mhm. Who are the voices that are worth listening to? Mm-hmm. Right? And what are the voices that I I shouldn't listen to? Yeah. And how do you And what should I let in? What should I let out? And ultimately, how do I develop my own inner inner voice? Right? How do I develop the the the virtue that's necessary to filter through these things and to be a prudent person? Yeah. So I I I think that image is From Chesterton is even more helpful in today's world with AI even more relevant. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Okay, so you just voiced a bunch of really interesting and dynamic, open-ended questions. And I guess the question that occurs to me is, first, how do you know the difference between a voice that you should be listening to and the voice that you want to sort of filter out? In the gospels, speak about, our Lord says, hey, I'm the good shepherd, I'm the gate. I'm the door, come through, you know, come through me. And I don't think all the voices out there are intentionally being sort of the wolf in the sheep's clothing. They're not the ones necessarily intentionally climbing over the fence. People out there, you know, they have something that they believe. They, maybe they genuinely do want to help people, but they just don't have all the information. So, so. you as a teacher, where do you start with kind of answering that question of which voices are the voices to listen to? Yeah, I think, gosh, there's a lot that we could say here, but one of the big issues, and like you pointed out, Christ says, like, I know my sheep and they know me. It's like, we need that exposure to that voice to recognize, like, this is the voice I should be listening to. So maybe that's the first I would say about that is we are providing them with things that are true, things that are good, things that are beautiful. We're putting those before them and they start to get accustomed to what the truth feels like almost. They start to, they know when someone is speaking the truth. So that's my initial thought. Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. Custodian to that voice so that they they learn to discern that voice it takes takes time takes practice Definitely thinking about Elijah in the desert right now and even he had to kind of like, you know sort of almost like practice to hear You know the voice of it's not in the storm. It's not in the rushing wind. It's a small whispering sound. Yeah So it does take it's not something that necessarily Comes day one, right? There's a lot of a lot of figures who are, know, sort of, you know, even Samuel in the temple, or no, yeah, I guess it's Samuel. He hasn't learned to recognize the voice of the Lord yet, so he keeps on thinking Eli is calling him, right? So, okay, so that's a good starting off point. But so then this sort of body of, the good, the true, and the beautiful that maybe we've collected over the years according to classical education. We're saying this is what will expose them to the real voice that they should be listening to. Yeah, I think we're providing them with things that have been and are continuing to be authorities that have provided wisdom, that have provided here is some guiding lights to help you make choices throughout your life, to help you to live the good life. And maybe more than anything, it will help them to just step back. and not listen to as many voices. Yeah. Because they sort of come with us to share in the appreciation of things that have stood the test of time. What do you say? Yeah. Yeah. And I think we touched on this earlier that it's not necessarily that these things that are out there are bad even. I mean, some of it obviously is, but some of it is just this influx of information and things you're told to care about and things that are important. And that's one of the most challenging things about life, especially as you get older, is deciding. not just, all right, these things are bad and these things are good, but how do I decide which good things to focus on, which good voices to listen to? Because there's just, there's so much out there now. So I don't know, have you seen that? And you're just teaching, you've been teaching Dante. Like, have you seen ways that that is helping to provide the students with some of those skills, with some of that wisdom that will help them to make these choices as adults? Yes, I mean, we started with screw tape letters and that's a great lead into Dante because that's a stage of... Here's the devil and he has an active role in your life, so to speak. And he's trying to do everything he can to lead you away from God in little ways. And anything that does not actually draw you towards God, in a sense, he's all for that. so then moving into Dante. and seeing the stories of all these men and women, mostly men, who Dante puts into the different rings of hell, and you see their unrepentance, and they kind of tell their story of why they're there, and you see their unrepentance, it is a reflection. So your question, have they started to... I think they definitely have reflected more more deeply on, you know, okay, what makes this worse than this? Why is this sin treated more gravely? You know, and, you know, I one of the things that they've come to appreciate is as you go kind of deeper and deeper, you know, into hell is that the sins are much more rational. There's a lot more intentionality, malice, you could say. And to the extent that, I have thought ahead about this, I have been unconcerned about maybe the destruction it does to another human person and or God and his church because I want something else and that's something else in my world takes precedence. And so... It does provide that framework, I think, that you're speaking about for a young man or young lady who's trying to make sense of the world and all the different voices they hear. Ultimately, like, okay, is this voice getting me closer to heaven or not? Right. Yeah, and as we've said multiple times already in this podcast, I think, The mass is the center of our day. And how can we allow for this space to grow inside ourselves and in the environment here that we're giving the students, how can we help them to grow that space inside of them where they hear the Lord and they're attuning their will to his will. So I think that's another thing that I really hope to provide for the students is just cutting out the distractions again, encouraging them to love the silence, to stop and to think about something more. I think that we do this in our classroom, like in the literature classroom, like let's read this passage multiple times. Let's slow down and really think about this. Or let's spend this whole class talking about this one question. rather than just rush, rush, rush, rather than just filling class with myriads of distractions. And hopefully that's modeling for the students that's building that habit in their minds of taking their time, slowly thinking through something. Again, like I said earlier, God cares more about our freedom than our efficiency. And often this is how he works in our lives, that he'll keep bringing us back. to this point over and over again, until we freely choose him and freely choose the good on our own. And so I guess you started this whole thing with meditating on the figure of John the Baptist, the rich shul out in the desert who is completely captivated by this quest. And so ultimately, as we of reflect on the role of the teacher with regards to the students, learning how to pay attention to which voices. I guess it comes down to... they, the students, want to that the teachers themselves are filtering out these other voices. And this can, I guess, be demonstrated in all kinds of ways, right? Do they know what movies we watch, what music we listen to, what ads we think are funny or entertaining? Are we spending a lot of time on YouTube, social media? Who are the people that we surround ourselves with? Who are our closest friends? What kind of environments are we engaging in? And talking about this stuff all the time. it can kind of come up, or they can kind of see it, or what have you. And so something that's really, I guess, striking for the examination of conscience for the teacher, I'm sure. I'm definitely feeling convicted right now that the way that I model who has priority in my mental bandwidth and my ear space, the things that I read, that matters, not just for me, but for the students. Right, yeah, I think that's exactly right. We want this for them. We have to be modeling it and not just modeling it like, you know, when I'm teaching at the classical school, I pretend to like classical music, but really like, I like all these other songs. Like, no, it will come through whether you're directly talking about it or not. yeah. Do you make room for silence in your life? What types of movies and music are you listening to? How many voices are you allowing into your own head? Yeah, like all of that's like just constant questions I think we as teachers should be asking ourselves to say, all right, if we want this for our students, but we're not striving after ourselves again. How are they gonna choose that? Why are they gonna choose that? have to really, and they can do it of course with the help of their families and church, they might be able to kind of go against the grain in any particular environment, because the purpose of a classical school and what we're trying to do here at Chesterton is create an environment that is in support of what the parents are trying to do at home, know, in line and know, alignment with the visions that the church paints for us. A student who spending a lot of his waking hours in the classroom or at the school has the support of this environment as well. Paint this picture of the desert, which I love. I choose to go to the desert. I choose to turn off the noise. I choose not to watch that movie or listen to that song or listen to that radio station or TikTok channel or whatever because it is not a voice worth listening to. I'd rather go out to the desert, hear the wind whistling in the reeds and the voice of John the Baptist. What I find interesting is, again, there's no real formula for this. Like, you should listen to one podcast a day, and no more than that. It's like, you for yourself sort of have to decide, like, all right, where am I just trying to fill noise as opposed to sitting in silence when I should be? And when is this genuine, like, OK, I should listen to this podcast. I really have something to gain from this. And that's been a... a struggle for me and something I've been really trying to work on intentionally is like, again, lots of good podcasts. these are actually, would say, voices worth listening to. But if you're just constantly filling all the empty space with that, are you even really giving yourself the time to reflect on something you've already listened to? Or are you just immediately moving on to the next thing and just filling your mind with all of this information as good as it might be? Like have you actually sat with and wrestled with a podcast you've already listened to? Right, right. Yeah, it's a great point. And that might be the kind of the next step in the framework that we wish to give the students is, and you've kind of touched on this with the way that we read literature or what reading in philosophy class, know, hey, it's not about getting through the whole text. It's about wrestling with. content, whatever formula helps you to do that. Are you taking notes, right? Are you going back? Are you annotating what you're reading? Are you asking yourself, how does this apply to my life? Is my thinking and my will aligned here to the good as far as I can see it within this text? Sometimes it. it can be hard as maybe creatures in time and so we have this sort of understanding that we have to move forward in life. There's sort of milestones to get to. But sort of building in that patience is a real skill. There's infinite good voices at this point that we could listen to and read. the mark that it leaves on our soul is what's more important. Right. And then that's what we find so attractive in other people is I think we want to give our students this, like we want them to have an encounter with something and they might not even know exactly what it is, but we want them to be like, I want that. Right? Like people who have like John the Baptist comes to mind for me when I think of this, like he has entered into the silence. He has, in a sense, like he's done battle with himself and now he sort of embodies this excellence that's captivating to other people. Yeah. Or someone else that comes to mind is Aragorn in the Lord of the Rings. Like you watch those movies and you're like, this guy has something that I want. Like he knows what he's about, he's very self-possessed. You can like, you can see and smell the virtue, right? Just like when you watch this character. So how can we again model that for our students so they're like, I don't know exactly what this person has, but I want that and I wanna do what it takes to get to that level. Yeah, yeah, no, And a lot of times it comes down to putting in the hard work, right? Earlier on in Dante, we were talking about acedia, spiritual sloth, right? So sloth is a repugnance to effort or work. Acedia is a repugnance to effort and spiritual journey. And so, like ultimately, what's going to kind of give us that gravitas and charisma of moral dignity that's attractive to people like John the Baptist or Aragon. It comes from, OK, I'm distracted when I sit down for this time of prayer or mass, but I push through that. I push away those distracting thoughts. I throw myself into the heart of the mass of what's happening there. Or my time of prayer, or the good things that we read and study here at Chester Tomb. Right. Yeah. I think we want those two things to just go hand in hand. I think they do. think that's why. That's why I'm drawn to doing this work. think that's why you're drawn to doing this work as well. It's like the work that we're doing in the classroom and that focused attention. is hopefully spurring on in them this love for virtue. They're reading Dante, they're reading Plato. And they're like, wow, this is difficult to be a good and virtuous human being. But I'm like on fire for that thing now. And I want, I at least want to want it more than I do now. Even if I do get so distracted in prayer and I get so distracted while I'm reading Plato, but I want to get to that place where I'm more locked in while I'm reading Plato and while I'm in mass. Yeah, for sure, for sure. Which now you're making me think of, so what happens after John the Baptist sort of has that interior purification, so to speak? Well, he's out there and people are going to him and they ask him what to do and he baptizes him. That's why we call him John the Baptist, right? And what is that? The baptism of John is not the baptism of Christ. It's different. It's not the sacrament that washes away or ridges the sin, but it's that conversion, that metan... Like you said, the want to want, I want to want it. I want to want the moral life. I want to want God. I want to want to overcome my vices and all my bad habits. If we can give that to students, that's amazing. Right. Yeah. I think in humility, we can say that at least is something we know we can give to them. Right? Like I can't promise to model perfect virtue for my students. No, right? This is something I said in the articles, like we are still on the way pursuing these things, but we can at least give them like a deeper hunger for those things. Like, look, I want this so much. I still make lots of mistakes, right? We all do. But I'm at least every day striving more and more for this thing that ultimately is sanctity. is why the mascot of the school is Saints. That's right. So we're all trying to become Saints and that's probably good place to leave this episode. We'll have you back on again, Grayson. Thank you for the time today. You bet. We'll see everybody next time. Yeah. Saint John the Baptist, pray for us. Amen.