Latest / Hopestream: Parenting Kids Through Addiction & Mental Health / Releasing Resentment and Guilt Through “Pungent Boundaries,” with Nancy Landrum

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Releasing Resentment and Guilt Through “Pungent Boundaries,” with Nancy Landrum · Hopestream: Parenting Kids Through Addiction & Mental Health

0:02
Nancy: The thing you have to face is that initially it's going to hurt you to see your child suffer.
0:10
Nancy: You have to be willing to see your child suffer through those lessons in order to
0:30
Brenda: Welcome to Hope Stream, a podcast where you'll hear interviews, conversations, and encouraging words for parents of teens and young adults who struggle with substance misuse and mental health.
0:43
Brenda: I'm Brenda Zane, your host and a fellow parent whose child struggled.
0:47
Brenda: I'm so glad you're here.
0:49
Brenda: Take a deep breath and know you're not doing this alone anymore.
0:53
Brenda: Hello my friend.
0:54
Brenda: Glad you are here with me today.
0:56
Brenda: Glad you chose this episode over one of the hundreds of others that you could have because We are talking about how to have healthier relationships and specifically about boundaries.
1:09
Brenda: One of my favorite topics ever.
1:13
Brenda: When Nancy Landrum and I sat down for this conversation, I knew I had just lucked into meeting an extraordinary person.
1:21
Brenda: Her energy and strong but gentle personality literally washed over me and it was like we had known each other for a lifetime.
1:30
Brenda: Nancy is a highly sought after relationship coach, author of eight books, and holds a master's degree in spiritual psychology.
1:40
Brenda: The book of Nancy's that brought us together is called Pungent Boundaries, and I was intrigued by the title, so I got the book and read it, and holy cow, it turned out to be one of the best tools in my toolbox when it comes to understanding and setting boundaries.
1:56
Brenda: In the book, Nancy talks about how boundaries need to be set when there's frustration caused by an imbalance of responsibility and that usually the person who has been carrying too much responsibility is the first one to become aware of the need for the boundary.
2:13
Brenda: She talks about how setting boundaries is graduate level relationship coursework.
2:18
Brenda: and usually at first doesn't feel warm and fuzzy and super loving.
2:25
Brenda: The term pungent boundaries comes from the fact that when we take on too much responsibility and are expected to clean up someone else's mess, it stinks.
2:35
Brenda: It's biting and piercing and it doesn't taste good.
2:40
Brenda: As Nancy and I talked, it became clear why she learned so much about boundaries.
2:46
Brenda: Her son struggled with substances for years and he tragically and ultimately lost his battle after suffering congenital heart failure.
2:56
Brenda: Through the many years that Nancy worked to help her son, she learned a lot about love and a lot about boundaries.
3:04
Brenda: And like many of us, she also fell into the trap of denial for a bit when her son was young and people brought up the possibility of drug use.
3:13
Brenda: She shares some specific ways that she set and held boundaries during her son's struggle and how she was able to not feel guilty about it.
3:22
Brenda: We also discussed how when our kids struggle, it can shine the light back on us and our beliefs about how we take responsibility for our kids successes or failures.
3:34
Brenda: And why that's not helpful.
3:36
Brenda: We talk resentment and guilt, all the things.
3:40
Brenda: I can't wait for you to meet my new incredible and wise friend in this special episode.
3:45
Brenda: Take a listen now to my conversation with Nancy Landrum, author, coach, and warrior mom.
3:53
Brenda: Enjoy.
4:09
Brenda: Nancy, welcome to Hope Stream.
4:12
Brenda: This is such a special conversation.
4:14
Brenda: You and I have had a chance to have a little bit of a pre pre conversation and I think I had goosebumps on my arms for most of it.
4:22
Brenda: So I'm really thrilled to have you back.
4:26
Brenda: You know, we have a lot of people that reach out, want to be on the podcast and want me to read their book.
4:30
Brenda: And when I read through your email, I was so touched and just, The topic of boundaries in particular is always one that we love, but also just your story with your son.
4:42
Brenda: And so I'm thrilled to have you.
4:44
Brenda: So welcome.
4:45
Brenda: It's such a privilege to be here with you.
4:48
Brenda: Thank you for having me.
4:50
Brenda: Well, thank you for the work that you do.
4:52
Brenda: I know you coach a lot of people in relationships.
4:55
Brenda: You write, how many books do you have?
4:57
Brenda: I couldn't even count.
4:59
Brenda: I know it's at least three or four or more.
5:02
Brenda: Eight.
5:04
Brenda: Eight.
5:04
Brenda: Oh my gosh.
5:05
Brenda: Okay.
5:06
Brenda: Eight books.
5:07
Brenda: So you write a lot.
5:09
Brenda: So that's Incredible.
5:11
Brenda: I still am in awe of anybody who can write a book.
5:14
Brenda: I've, I've tried and I'm trying, and it's a lot of work.
5:18
Brenda: So huge kudos to you for that.
5:21
Brenda: I would love to start out just understanding how you came to be so passionate about Boundaries, about codependence, about helping people in their relationships, and, uh, you know, that will, I'm sure bring us to your story with your son, Steve.
5:39
Brenda: So why don't we start off there and then we'll dive into some other things.
5:42
Brenda: Does that sound okay?
5:44
Brenda: Sounds great.
5:46
Nancy: I think a lot of us end up in coaching or therapy work or support groups because of the pain we've been through.
5:54
Nancy: And that's certainly not exactly where my story began, but it's certainly where I gathered the skills and the personal growth in order to have anything worth writing about.
6:08
Nancy: The story began when I was very young and Decided I was going to have a happier marriage than my parents had.
6:17
Nancy: And by the time I learned to read, I literally saw myself writing books to help other people have healthy relationships.
6:25
Nancy: Now, I don't know where that came from.
6:28
Nancy: Wow! But, what I didn't know then, and probably is a good thing I didn't know, It was the 40 years of really painful lessons before I'd have anything worth sharing.
6:39
Nancy: Yeah.
6:40
Nancy: So, the first goal was to have a help, you know, a happy marriage and I learned some valuable lessons with my first marriage and then my husband died quite young.
6:52
Nancy: I had two baby boys on my own for about 13 years and then met and married Jim Landrum who was a widower with three children.
7:04
Nancy: Stephen.
7:05
Nancy: Really, he was two and a half when his dad died.
7:09
Nancy: He had a stronger emotional connection with his father than he did with me, I believe.
7:16
Nancy: And it, it impacted him horrifically.
7:20
Nancy: I mean, he was almost potty trained.
7:23
Nancy: He went back to diapers for a year.
7:25
Nancy: He had a large vocabulary and went back to 10 or 12 words.
7:30
Nancy: He would only color in purple and black.
7:33
Nancy: What I know now, I'd say he had childhood depression.
7:38
Nancy: And at that time, in the 60s, the idea of taking a toddler to a child psychologist was so far outside my world, it never occurred to me.
7:52
Nancy: I just assumed what many people still assume, that children are resilient, he'll get over it.
7:59
Nancy: But he never did.
8:02
Nancy: And when he was about 11, 12, 13, he began acting out, being more mouthy, even mouthy to teachers at school.
8:15
Nancy: His school work was complicated because he was an ADHD kid from birth, before it was diagnosed.
8:24
Nancy: He was just considered a problem child.
8:27
Nancy: Yeah.
8:28
Nancy: And then when I married Jim Landrum, it's like, that gave him the excuse to just say to hell with it.
8:38
Nancy: And he began smoking pot and blaming us and he told me a few years later that the first time he smoked pot he knew he was an addict.
8:50
Nancy: Because he felt peaceful and calm for the first time in his life.
8:57
Nancy: And, a lot of, that's why ADH kids, ADHD kids are more susceptible to drug addiction.
9:07
Nancy: And, of course, I didn't know, I didn't have a label for him at that time, I didn't know that there was any medication that could help, but he really ran me a wild chase there.
9:21
Nancy: For the next several years, he was in, he got kicked out of four high schools I remember being woken up at two in the morning by the cops telling me that he was in jail because he'd gone joyriding.
9:34
Nancy: With his stepsisters, Camaro.
9:37
Nancy: I thought he was in bed asleep.
9:39
Nancy: Oh man.
9:42
Nancy: And he got kicked off his little league baseball team.
9:44
Nancy: And that was one thing where he really excelled and he loved.
9:49
Nancy: And the coach told me that he thought that Steve was using something.
9:56
Nancy: And I didn't believe him.
9:58
Nancy: Uh, Steve had always had allergies and I, I just blamed it on other things.
10:05
Nancy: I couldn't believe that he was in any kind of substance.
10:11
Nancy: But it was shortly after that, that I forget what precipitated this, but I decided to do a thorough search of his room, and which I have, I thought, I considered that a violation, and I hadn't done that before, but things got so chaotic and so out of control that I thoroughly searched his room, and I found enough paraphernalia to know that he was on drugs, and that's when I made the decision, he was 17 time, And I made the decision to forcibly commit him to a drug rehab program, which was heartbreaking.
11:00
Nancy: Yeah.
11:01
Nancy: It was scary and he was so enraged and, and yet while he was in the program, he followed the rules.
11:11
Nancy: He did what they told him.
11:13
Nancy: He appeared to be the ideal client.
11:18
Nancy: And the psychologist that we met with for a family meeting, he threw Steve's file down on the table and looked at Steve and said, What are you doing here?
11:31
Nancy: You belong at Caltech.
11:33
Nancy: Because he had such a high IQ.
11:35
Nancy: Wow.
11:37
Nancy: He understood mechanical things intuitively, you know, without being taught.
11:44
Nancy: And, and I, I knew that it was, you know, his, his IQ was off the charts, but that, that gets trumped by emotional trauma.
11:57
Nancy: It didn't matter how smart he was.
12:00
Nancy: Right.
12:02
Nancy: And, you know, in talking with Steve during that program, I knew that as soon as he got out, he would dive back into all of his drug use because the.
12:16
Nancy: The program, the kind of treatment was maybe the best they had then, but it didn't address the real issue.
12:22
Nancy: And any counselor that we talked to believed him when he said that he was mad about mom remarrying and, you know, being in a stepfamily, that that was the issue.
12:37
Nancy: And I'd bring up, but what about his dad's death?
12:41
Nancy: And Steve would just shrug his shoulders and say, no, that's not it, but it was it.
12:46
Nancy: And you know, he, he agreed with me later that that was the real problem.
12:51
Brenda: Hmm.
12:52
Brenda: Isn't it interesting because today, you know, we know a lot about ACEs, right?
12:57
Brenda: The adverse childhood experiences.
12:59
Brenda: And when you hear something like that, what a huge trauma for a two and a half year old.
13:04
Brenda: And, and in those years when you were doing this.
13:08
Brenda: That wasn't on the forefront.
13:10
Brenda: So you probably did have people looking at you like you were crazy, like, well, why would it be that?
13:16
Brenda: The stepdad thing makes so much more sense.
13:18
Brenda: So much more logical.
13:21
Brenda: Did you kind of in your heart though, did you know that that was the sort of the original trauma was your, your husband dying?
13:29
Brenda: I knew it
13:29
Nancy: was.
13:30
Nancy: I mean, he didn't stop crying hysterically whenever I left him until maybe he was six or seven years old.
13:37
Nancy: I couldn't leave him anywhere for any reason without him panicking and, you know, being hysterical.
13:45
Nancy: And he was afraid that he would lose me, too.
13:49
Nancy: If I couldn't be five minutes late to pick him up, because he'd be in a panic.
13:56
Nancy: So, I knew, I knew that that was at the heart of, you know, what was driving his addiction.
14:05
Nancy: But he wasn't ready to face it, and No one that we worked with believed me.
14:11
Brenda: It's heartbreaking.
14:14
Brenda: And then you ultimately lost him due to complications, right?
14:18
Brenda: With the, his heart, congestive heart failure.
14:21
Nancy: There's almost a 15 year span in there.
14:25
Nancy: Oh.
14:25
Nancy: Where, where he was addicted at 15.
14:30
Nancy: I couldn't let him come home to live with us at 18 because his life was so difficult.
14:37
Nancy: Outrageously out of control, it was like, I couldn't allow his chaos.
14:44
Nancy: To continue infecting our family, and it was such a relief when he was gone, although the years that he was not living at home, uh, I told him, you can come home during daylight hours, you can eat whatever's available.
15:03
Nancy: You can't come here just to crash, and I won't let you spend the night.
15:08
Nancy: So, if, I knew if he was hungry, he'd have food, but that, that lasted for the first few years.
15:16
Nancy: And finally, he, he got enough put together that he was able to hold down a job while he continued to use.
15:25
Nancy: For a few years, he was so He emaciated that when I did see him, I'd hug him goodbye and, and think that, you know, that may be the last time I see you alive, because he was in such bad shape.
15:42
Nancy: And then, uh, I don't, his, I don't know why he put on some weight, he was able to hold a job down.
15:52
Nancy: But at about age 27, he called me one night and said, I need, I, I think I need to see the doctor, I can't breathe.
16:02
Nancy: And he said it so calmly, matter of factly, I didn't realize how serious it was.
16:10
Nancy: I picked him up the next morning and took him to a doctor.
16:13
Nancy: The doctor immediately hospitalized him with congestive heart failure.
16:19
Nancy: And for Stephen, whenever he took speed, it didn't speed up the rate of his heartbeat, it stretched the heart muscle.
16:29
Nancy: So, when he was diagnosed that night in the hospital, they didn't expect him to live through the night.
16:37
Nancy: Uh, he, they started giving him diuretics.
16:41
Nancy: He lost 22 pounds of water weight overnight, and his heart was twice the width of a normal human heart.
16:53
Nancy: So, I checked with Jim and said, are you okay if he comes home to live with us?
16:58
Nancy: Because the doctor said he could die any day.
17:02
Nancy: And Jim was very gracious and said yes.
17:07
Nancy: So he came home with us.
17:08
Nancy: And, and every day I lived with the awareness that he could die today.
17:13
Nancy: I mean, if he slept late, I'd think, should I open his door and see if he's alive, or, and there was some, real, I've always been a woman of faith, but I doubt, I doubt that there's any other period of time where I had to exercise more faith, not, not that Steven would live.
17:41
Nancy: I mean, it was.
17:43
Nancy: a foregone conclusion that he would die and there was nothing that could be done.
17:48
Nancy: He, his lifestyle was too out of control to be considered for a heart transplant.
17:55
Nancy: So my, in the midst of this, I went back to school to get my master's degree.
18:04
Nancy: And the first thing, or first assignment, was to choose an affirmation for the year.
18:11
Nancy: And the affirmation I worked out for myself was, I am walking in peace, trusting the path to unfold.
18:20
Nancy: And someone questioned me, Why aren't you saying, trusting my path to unfold?
18:25
Nancy: And I said, because I'm trusting for me and my son.
18:29
Nancy: I'm trusting our path to unfold.
18:32
Nancy: And I must have repeated that sometimes a hundred times a day.
18:37
Nancy: When I'd be overcome with anxiety and and all of the insecurity and the question is like what, what am I doing that is codependent and I need to stop?
18:50
Nancy: And what am I doing because Steven can't do it for himself?
18:55
Nancy: And I was, like, taking charge of his medication and making sure he stayed on his meds so that he wouldn't go into congestive heart failure again, which he did later a couple of times.
19:10
Nancy: I finally decided taking over the dispensing of his drugs is something I have to do because he isn't capable of managing that.
19:22
Nancy: And I, you know, I was so naive when he came home to live with us.
19:29
Nancy: I thought surely now he'll stop using because he's dying, but he didn't.
19:36
Nancy: He didn't stop.
19:37
Nancy: He was still taking speed and smoking pot, uh, drinking beer.
19:43
Nancy: He smoked cigarettes, and, but he hid it so well that I didn't know he was continuing to use.
19:52
Nancy: Uh, Jim, He said years later, he said, do you recall that I suggested that he might still be using?
20:02
Nancy: I didn't remember that.
20:03
Nancy: I couldn't hear it.
20:04
Nancy: It was beyond my comprehension.
20:09
Nancy: About two, two and a half years into this time, he was hospitalized for congestive heart failure again.
20:19
Nancy: Taken by emergency into the hospital.
20:23
Nancy: Uh, by now his heart was three times the size of a normal heart.
20:28
Nancy: Thirteen centimeters.
20:30
Nancy: Normal heart is four to five.
20:33
Nancy: And, again, they didn't expect him to live through the night.
20:38
Nancy: He did.
20:39
Nancy: But when he got out of the hospital that time, I didn't know it.
20:44
Nancy: Then he decided On his own, if I'm going to die with self respect, I have to die clean.
20:52
Nancy: He cut everything out, cold turkey, and I don't know why the detox didn't kill him, because he had boils all over his back from his body trying to get rid of all this crud.
21:04
Nancy: Yeah.
21:05
Nancy: But for the last four and a half to five months of his life, he was the real Steve again.
21:14
Nancy: He was sweet, he was considerate, he had empathy, he He was affectionate and those were qualities that were so lacking in him while he was under the influence.
21:28
Nancy: It's like he gave me this precious gift of having my son come back for those few months.
21:35
Nancy: And he did the best he could to make amends to those that he knew he had hurt during that time.
21:45
Nancy: And then, you know, I came home from an errand one day and he was dead on the kitchen floor.
21:52
Nancy: And, you know, it, it, yes, it's a tragedy, but what I mostly felt was relief that he wouldn't suffer anymore.
22:06
Nancy: And relief that my journey with him was over, because it was so strenuous.
22:15
Nancy: It was so difficult and it pulled, in the early years, it pulled the worst out of me, you know, the yelling and the, the, uh, complaining and trying to get him into therapy and, uh, trying to control him so that I would feel better.
22:39
Nancy: None of that worked.
22:42
Nancy: It didn't work.
22:43
Brenda: Spoiler alert, if you're listening and this sounds familiar, Nancy
22:47
Nancy: tried it for you.
22:49
Nancy: Yeah, then the nagging, the yelling, the shaming, none of that worked.
22:55
Nancy: But those last, those last few years, I had let go of the need to control him.
23:05
Nancy: And even though it was still impossible, I couldn't seem to accept that he was still using while he was that ill.
23:14
Nancy: I did, you know, finally accept that.
23:19
Nancy: But there were boundary lessons in there, some of which will be humorous.
23:24
Nancy: Steven had a couple of motorcycles and a car and a lot of tools and And we basically let him take over the garage, except for my path to my washer and dryer on one side, and my path to my workbench and supply of paints and stuff.
23:45
Nancy: On, on the one wall and his stuff kept migrating over into my area.
23:52
Nancy: So I, you know, I'd have to move things in order to get to the washer.
23:57
Nancy: And, and so I decided, said to Steve, I'm putting some masking tape on the concrete floor to outline a three foot sidewalk next to the washer and dryer and next to my workbench.
24:14
Nancy: Do you see that?
24:15
Nancy: Yeah, mom.
24:15
Nancy: I see that.
24:16
Nancy: Okay.
24:17
Nancy: Anything that I find on my side of that masking tape, I'm going to put in the trash.
24:25
Nancy: Okay, no, no big deal, I understand.
24:29
Nancy: Well, the next time I went out to do the laundry, there was a motorcycle engine sitting on top of the washing machine.
24:37
Nancy: And I looked at that and thought, okay, I set the boundary.
24:42
Nancy: I told him what the consequence would be.
24:44
Nancy: He agreed to it.
24:46
Nancy: It's going in the trash.
24:49
Nancy: So without any, I didn't bawl him out.
24:52
Nancy: There was no argument.
24:53
Nancy: There was no shaming him.
24:56
Nancy: No lecture.
24:58
Nancy: I just dumped it in the trash.
25:01
Nancy: And it was a couple of days before he said, Mom, do you know where my engine, motorcycle engine is?
25:08
Nancy: And I said, yes.
25:09
Nancy: I found it on the washing machine, so it's in the trash.
25:12
Nancy: He got it out of the trash and never let any of his objects land on my side of the masking tape again.
25:21
Brenda: I love that story so much.
25:24
Brenda: I think we could all use a lot of masking tape in our lives.
25:28
Brenda: I might go get some today.
25:30
Brenda: Yes.
25:32
Nancy: Well, it's the power of a clear boundary with clear consequences and my certainty that I would enforce it.
25:41
Nancy: Because without the enforcement.
25:44
Nancy: There's no boundary.
25:46
Nancy: It's just words.
25:47
Nancy: You know, it doesn't mean anything unless there's a clear consequence and you enforce it.
25:53
Nancy: And when you enforce it, without the lectures and all the drama, that's what works.
26:09
Brenda: Hey there, are you feeling stuck in a cycle of drama and arguments with your child, worried sick about their substance use?
26:16
Brenda: I have been there and I want you to know there's hope.
26:19
Brenda: This podcast is just one piece of the curated and trustworthy resources and solutions we offer for parents.
26:26
Brenda: We recognize you need emotional support and a solid plan for moving forward, making positive change in your family.
26:34
Brenda: So in addition to connecting with other parents and feeling like part of something bigger, we also teach you practical skills and strategies to dial down the drama and diffuse those heated moments.
26:45
Brenda: We appreciate it.
26:46
Brenda: We step you through the evidence based craft approach, a game changer that can help you invite your child to accept help without resorting to tough love or waiting for rock bottom.
26:57
Brenda: We have so much more than the podcast waiting for you.
27:00
Brenda: Head over to hopestreamcommunity.
27:02
Brenda: org to tap into all of our resources and become part of the HopeStream family in our private online community.
27:10
Brenda: Remember you're not alone in this.
27:13
Brenda: We're doing it together.
27:14
Brenda: Now let's get back to the conversation.
27:30
Brenda: Thank you for sharing your story and about Steven.
27:34
Brenda: And he sounds like so many of the kids of the parents that I work with, highly intelligent, you know, almost too intelligent, especially for a school system that does not.
27:46
Brenda: you know, if you don't fit in the box, good luck.
27:50
Brenda: Highly sensitive, you know, ADHD, all of these things.
27:54
Brenda: It's almost like this template that I see for these kids and the substances work.
27:59
Brenda: And we talk about that a lot in the craft approach, which is, you know, their behavior makes sense.
28:05
Brenda: Like he found something that worked for him.
28:08
Brenda: And unfortunately, this was at a time before Craft was really well known before the impact of trauma, you know, childhood trauma was known.
28:17
Brenda: So it sounds like you were kind of out there on your own, just like pioneering whatever you could to, to get through this, just this agony of so many years.
28:28
Nancy: I was so on my own, other than my husband was so supportive.
28:34
Nancy: Uh, he never blamed me, uh, he didn't complain much.
28:40
Nancy: He backed me up when I needed backup, but it seemed, it felt, like everyone else in my life saw Stephen's problem as my fault.
28:52
Nancy: Right.
28:52
Nancy: I was blamed.
28:54
Nancy: And that shaming in the beginning years was so hard.
28:59
Nancy: It was like it added another huge layer of pain on the whole situation.
29:05
Nancy: To be blamed as though I was a bad mother, you know, it's your fault, or you're not disciplining him right, or he wouldn't be in this trouble if it wasn't for you.
29:16
Nancy: Including my parents, my sisters, you know, family members as well.
29:22
Nancy: Other adults that I knew were blaming me.
29:25
Nancy: I wanted to crawl in a hole and die.
29:28
Brenda: And the word resentment comes up a lot in the book and I would love to have you talk a little bit about that because I think we, when we think of boundaries, we often think of kind of feeling like trampled on or I'm, I'm invisible or something like that.
29:44
Brenda: But the word resentment kept coming up and I was really intrigued by that.
29:48
Brenda: So I'd love for you to just share a little bit about why that is.
29:51
Brenda: Thank you for
29:52
Nancy: asking.
29:54
Nancy: I rescinded Steve for.
29:56
Nancy: upsetting my perfect picture of my life.
30:00
Nancy: Yes.
30:01
Nancy: He blew my cover and, you know, I'd say he ripped the mask off.
30:06
Nancy: I, up until then, I'd been able to look like I had, you know, I fairly had a fairly nice body.
30:13
Nancy: I kept myself and my home up really nice.
30:19
Nancy: I thought I presented a picture of a woman that was managing life very well, but that, that picture required a great marriage and well behaved children.
30:33
Nancy: My marriage was falling apart at the beginning of this story.
30:37
Nancy: We finally got the help we needed.
30:40
Nancy: But Stephen was blowing my cover by being so outrageously out of control, and I resented that.
30:50
Nancy: Like, don't, don't upset my picture of what my life is supposed to be.
30:57
Nancy: And it was only by gradually setting one boundary after another, one by one, the resentments dropped.
31:07
Nancy: It also required me changing some beliefs.
31:11
Nancy: Like, in the beginning, I believed that I was at fault.
31:15
Nancy: No wonder their words and actions hurt so badly, because they, they were confirming my own belief that it must be my fault.
31:24
Nancy: And finally, I was able to choose a different belief, which was I'm, I was never a perfect parent, but I did a lot of things really well.
31:36
Nancy: I mean, I coped the best I could with his father's death.
31:40
Nancy: I managed our household.
31:42
Nancy: We did lots of fun things together.
31:44
Nancy: They got my children two boys.
31:47
Nancy: Got plenty of affection.
31:49
Nancy: We did camping trips and backpac I mean, we, we, we were a family.
31:56
Nancy: And I think that when I could change the belief that whatever I may have done imperfectly, it wasn't enough to justify the drug addiction that he suffered from.
32:10
Nancy: I did not cause that.
32:12
Nancy: I didn't, we didn't have an atmosphere where drugs were done, you know, I didn't even drink alcohol.
32:20
Nancy: And, uh, when I was able to adopt that belief that his addiction is not my fault, I did the best I could every day as a mother.
32:33
Nancy: And, and it was pretty damn good, you know, considering the circumstances I had.
32:40
Nancy: Forgive me, I don't usually swear.
32:43
Nancy: Hey, it's all, it's highly appropriate.
32:47
Nancy: But it was, when, when I would feel, not just with Steven, but with any relationship, when I'd start feeling resentment, if I dug into the cause of the resentment, it wasn't to blame someone else.
33:04
Nancy: It was the recognition, I'm allowing, uh, my space to be invaded in an inappropriate way.
33:13
Nancy: And it's up to me to decide how I want to be treated, what I will tolerate and what I won't tolerate.
33:22
Nancy: And whatever I won't tolerate, if I don't get that by, you know, respectful request, then it requires a boundary that I will enforce.
33:33
Nancy: And in every, Stephen was my biggest teacher, honestly, I call him, you know, the best teacher of my life, taught me so many things that I would never have learned without him in my life.
33:50
Nancy: But in other situations as well, I realized that when I'm feeling resentment, it's because I'm acting in a codependent way.
34:01
Nancy: I'm, I'm not assuming full responsibility for myself.
34:05
Nancy: And so someone else is taking advantage of me in some way, or treating me with disrespect.
34:13
Nancy: So the, the way out of resentment is to look at what, what do I need that I'm not giving myself?
34:21
Nancy: And if necessary, what boundaries do I need to set so that I'm treated with respect?
34:28
Nancy: You know, whatever area of respect I need.
34:32
Brenda: I just wonder how you started to have that realization, right?
34:36
Brenda: Because I think, you know, today people listen to podcasts or, or maybe they see a therapist.
34:43
Brenda: What was your process for starting to recognize the resentment and then say, wait a minute, what am I doing to contribute to this?
34:52
Brenda: How can I start to work my way out of it?
34:55
Brenda: So I think that's really interesting and it's helpful for people to hear people's processes making changes in their life so that we can start to do some of that work on our own.
35:07
Brenda: Because not everybody can see a therapist or, you know, do some of that work.
35:11
Brenda: So what was that process like for you?
35:14
Nancy: It started in those years when Stephen began to act out and my marriage was in big trouble.
35:22
Nancy: And I began an addiction of my own.
35:25
Nancy: An addiction to speaking.
35:27
Nancy: Rescuing Steve.
35:30
Nancy: Codependency is an addiction that fits.
35:33
Nancy: We match each other's addiction.
35:35
Nancy: And my addiction was trying to save him.
35:38
Nancy: And also, I became addicted to food.
35:43
Nancy: It was like there was no comfort in my life that I could identify.
35:49
Nancy: And I looked to food to comfort me, to help me sleep.
35:54
Nancy: I would OD on carbs so that I could sleep.
35:59
Nancy: I began to gain weight and interestingly enough.
36:03
Nancy: It's not the marriage problems or the problems with Steve that sent me to therapy.
36:08
Nancy: It was weight, weight gain.
36:12
Nancy: And there was one more area that I thought I should be in control of.
36:16
Nancy: And I wasn't.
36:17
Nancy: I, I knew it had nothing to do with self control because my eating was so out of control.
36:25
Nancy: So I began to see a coach that specialized in eating disorders.
36:32
Nancy: I could sit in her office for two hours a week and bawl my eyes out.
36:37
Nancy: For the first time, I, I had done little, very little crying in my whole life, you know.
36:45
Nancy: Childhood, my dad would say, Stop crying or I'll give you something to cry about.
36:50
Nancy: So, I didn't really cry very much when my first husband died.
36:55
Nancy: And here I was in the midst of all of this pain and I couldn't let myself cry, except when I was in her office.
37:03
Nancy: And she began to track the beliefs that were driving my addiction to food.
37:11
Nancy: She began to help me identify, Is it that you think you must be perfect in order to be loved?
37:20
Nancy: Yes, I have to be perfect.
37:22
Nancy: And that perfection is being blown to smithereens.
37:26
Nancy: My house always has to be clean.
37:29
Nancy: I always have to look good.
37:31
Nancy: The food I serve has to be healthy and tasty.
37:35
Nancy: And I was also working part time at that time and my job had to be done with perfection.
37:43
Nancy: So the whole, the whole attachment to perfection was challenged.
37:50
Nancy: So it took eight months of weekly sessions before I got through a session without crying.
37:57
Nancy: And in that time, I began to change my belief around perfection and making a mistake.
38:05
Nancy: I was, I was in the grocery store one day, buying groceries, and I picked up a carton of blueberry yogurt, and it slipped out of my hand and went splat on the floor.
38:19
Nancy: You know, a three foot circle of blueberry yogurt.
38:22
Nancy: And I stood there looking at it, and I thought, somebody in that store is paid to clean up messes.
38:30
Nancy: I'm going to walk away and let them clean it up.
38:33
Nancy: I don't have to be the one to clean it up.
38:36
Nancy: And I grinned from ear to ear.
38:39
Nancy: I bought the rest of my groceries just grinning from ear to ear because it was such a victory for me to walk away from a mess that I had made.
38:51
Brenda: Amazing.
38:52
Brenda: What a metaphor, right?
38:54
Brenda: I am so glad you brought this up about the food and about perfectionism.
38:59
Brenda: It is so common and I think people don't often make the connection between These things, right?
39:08
Brenda: It's like, well, I've got this kid who's over here off the rails and then, oh my gosh, I'm getting so much weight and, you know, there's, there's parts that we think are discreet.
39:18
Brenda: And then if you have somebody good, like you did this, this eating disorder specialist to say, wait a minute, maybe this is all connected.
39:27
Brenda: And for you to have that experience at the grocery store is just such a perfect example of growth, right?
39:35
Brenda: Of, so what would you have done prior?
39:37
Brenda: Like, what would your old self have done if you dropped that yogurt?
39:40
Brenda: I
39:40
Nancy: ran to the manager and said, I'm so sorry, please forgive me.
39:44
Nancy: Give me a mop.
39:45
Nancy: Let me help you clean it up.
39:47
Nancy: You know, that would have been my MO.
39:50
Nancy: Yes.
39:52
Nancy: It's hard to, you know, I, not everyone will understand that story, but it was so.
39:58
Brenda: I 100 percent
40:01
Nancy: understand it
40:02
Brenda: when so this was something that really struck me in the book and I highlighted it.
40:08
Brenda: It was page 55.
40:10
Brenda: And you said, every time I step in between a capable person's action and its natural consequence, I am interfering with his or her opportunity to learn.
40:21
Nancy: Yes.
40:22
Nancy: One definition of codependency is when I take over responsibilities that rightfully belong to someone else.
40:32
Nancy: And those responsibilities not only rightfully belong to someone else, but they're at an age and a place in their growth where they are capable of doing that responsibility, but they're allowing me to take care of that responsibility so they don't have to.
40:51
Nancy: Thank you.
40:52
Nancy: Well, I'm robbing them of an opportunity to grow up.
40:56
Nancy: Uh, I had a client a few years ago who had a 21 year old daughter who was in college.
41:03
Nancy: His agreement was that he would pay for college as long as she was going full time.
41:09
Nancy: She got involved with a boyfriend, quit college, moved to across the country with him.
41:16
Nancy: And, uh, then she was mad at her father because he wouldn't keep paying her phone bill and her car insurance.
41:25
Nancy: And I had to question him, tell me how you define a good parent.
41:30
Nancy: In my definition, a good parent is someone who, who teaches a child, uh, skills and then turns those skills over to that child at age appropriate times.
41:43
Nancy: Until finally they're capable of managing an adult life.
41:48
Nancy: And I said, your daughter has made a very adult decision by quitting school, moving across the country with her boyfriend.
41:57
Nancy: So, what is she learning when you continue to pay her cell phone bill and her car insurance?
42:05
Nancy: She's learning she doesn't have to act like an adult.
42:09
Nancy: And he said, but what if she doesn't get a job and, you know, she loses her cell phone or she loses her car insurance.
42:17
Nancy: I said, that's how we grow up.
42:21
Nancy: That's how we learn.
42:23
Nancy: And if you keep doing those things for her, you're basically saying to her, I don't have the confidence in you that you are capable of acting like an adult.
42:35
Nancy: You gave her like two months notice and then canceled her cell phone and insurance.
42:40
Nancy: She was lividly angry for a short period of time, but six months later, their relationship was better than it ever had been.
42:50
Nancy: On her own, she went back to school and got some Help with the cost of schooling.
42:58
Nancy: On her own she got a job, she paid for her car insurance, she didn't lose her cell phone.
43:05
Nancy: If he had continued to do that, he would have robbed her of an important lesson about growing up and being an adult.
43:14
Brenda: Absolutely.
43:15
Brenda: And you also in sort of related to this rescuing, you talked about Stephen learned that if he just endured your initial anger, that you would eventually jump in and fix it.
43:27
Brenda: So he had to go through a little bit of discomfort, maybe that you were angry, but then, you know, he would, you would jump in and rescue and fix.
43:35
Brenda: And I think is really interesting.
43:37
Brenda: The story that you just told for us to understand that when we do hold some of those boundaries It probably will get worse before it gets better.
43:45
Brenda: It's not going to instantly just get better.
43:49
Nancy: The thing you have to face in holding a boundary like this gentleman did.
43:55
Nancy: is that initially it's going to hurt you to see your child suffer.
44:01
Nancy: You have to be willing to see your child suffer through those lessons in order to, to learn the lesson that will serve them positively as an adult.
44:16
Nancy: The time that you're talking about was during those teenage years that were so chaotic and, you know, if he didn't, Do something he was supposed to do, I would ball him out, and he was probably 16 when I began to, uh, began to learn the boundary setting lesson, and that's when he told me that as a child, he just learned if he'd put up with my temper tantrum.
44:45
Nancy: For a little while, I would jump in and rescue him.
44:49
Nancy: Well, by the time he was 16, he had junk cars in our backyard.
44:56
Nancy: It looked like the neighborhood junkyard.
45:00
Nancy: It was disgraceful.
45:02
Nancy: I hated it.
45:03
Nancy: And I begged and pleaded and shamed him.
45:06
Nancy: You know, please get rid.
45:08
Nancy: He'd promise and then break his word.
45:10
Nancy: And finally, I said, When is the first time you can reasonably expect to get rid of all the jackhorses in our backyard?
45:20
Nancy: He was, I think, 16 or 17.
45:23
Nancy: And he said, By next Sunday, at 3 o'clock, they'll be gone.
45:28
Nancy: I said, OK.
45:29
Nancy: If they aren't gone at 3 o'clock, I'm calling a rucker to come and take them away.
45:34
Nancy: OK?
45:35
Nancy: Yes, OK.
45:37
Nancy: Well, Sunday morning came and he came to me and said, Sorry mom, I've made other plans.
45:42
Nancy: I can't take care of the cars today.
45:45
Nancy: And all I, no lecture, no anger.
45:50
Nancy: I just very calmly said, Sorry, that wasn't our agreement.
45:54
Nancy: So if they're not gone by three, I will call the Rutger.
45:59
Nancy: He found a way to borrow a trailer from a buddy and hauled them out.
46:04
Nancy: That was one of my first boundary lessons with him.
46:09
Brenda: And he probably wasn't super happy about that either, but you just, I think what you said about the calmly without emotion, without drama, that's so important because that tends to get us in this heightened emotional space and then they get into the heightened, you know, and then it just goes downhill from there, but I'm sure he didn't just say, Oh, you're right.
46:32
Brenda: I'll, I'll happily go do this mom.
46:34
Brenda: He was probably pretty mad about it.
46:37
Brenda: I don't remember those words ever coming out of his mouth.
46:42
Brenda: You talked a little bit about the, the relationship between resentment and depression.
46:47
Brenda: And I think that's a big one that a lot of parents face as we get Deeper and deeper into this with our kids.
46:54
Brenda: So maybe talk about that a little bit.
46:57
Nancy: In those first chaotic years when my marriage and my parenting was in question and my body was changing, I was very depressed.
47:09
Nancy: I would even say suicidal, although I didn't have the courage to commit suicide.
47:16
Nancy: I think there are people that eat themselves to death.
47:20
Nancy: And if I had continued eating.
47:23
Nancy: out of control the way I was.
47:26
Nancy: I, I would have shortened my life at least.
47:29
Nancy: Right.
47:29
Nancy: With obesity.
47:31
Nancy: But the depression required two things.
47:34
Nancy: It required being honest about the resentment instead of pretending everything was okay, that I was managing.
47:42
Nancy: It also required looking at my beliefs and being willing to challenge beliefs that weren't working.
47:49
Nancy: So, one belief was, if I'm a good person, if I'm going to church every Sunday, I believe in God, and I am, you know, I'm doing my best to live an honest, ethical life, then everything's gonna turn out great for me.
48:06
Nancy: Well, that doesn't always work.
48:09
Nancy: It isn't, it isn't a guaranteed outcome.
48:13
Nancy: None of us are guaranteed a life free from pain or trauma of some kind.
48:20
Nancy: And, and for a lot, it, it questioned, you know, it caused me to question my relationship with my faith.
48:30
Nancy: What is it that I believe in?
48:31
Nancy: Do I believe if I'm good, I'm gonna have a perfect outcome here?
48:35
Nancy: Well, that's blown up.
48:37
Nancy: That's not working.
48:40
Nancy: So what do I believe in?
48:42
Nancy: And Eventually, down the road, it was that affirmation, I'm walking in peace.
48:48
Nancy: God told me in an amazing visualization that we went through during my master's program, I got the clear message that God said, I'll give you peace if you will give me trust.
49:03
Nancy: It's an exchange.
49:05
Nancy: So in order to have peace, you need to give me your trust.
49:11
Nancy: And my trust was that I was not alone.
49:15
Nancy: That God would see me through, and that the answers would come day by day as I needed them.
49:23
Nancy: So, challenging beliefs was an important part, looking at what's causing the resentment, and being willing to find how I am setting things up so that I'm being taken advantage of.
49:42
Nancy: Or being used in some way.
49:44
Nancy: And how can I change that?
49:47
Nancy: And it, the amazing thing, when, for instance, when I put the masking tape down on the garage, the lecture stopped, the resentment stopped, there was no more anger, because I had a clear path to, of what I would do, that if Steve violated that boundary.
50:11
Nancy: And, and of course when I found the motorcycle engine on the washer, that's why I could just calmly put it in the trash without the lectures and the temper tantrum and all, all that.
50:27
Nancy: Clear boundaries.
50:29
Nancy: Understood by both parties.
50:31
Nancy: Agreed to by both parties.
50:33
Nancy: And
50:35
Brenda: you said earlier that consequences without enforcement are really a lie.
50:46
Brenda: I never thought about it that way.
50:48
Nancy: I mean, how many of us with toddlers say, if you do that one more time, you can't have dessert?
50:56
Nancy: And then we forget what we've said.
50:59
Nancy: Even toddlers will know.
51:01
Nancy: Mom will really blow up if I disobey her four times in a row.
51:07
Nancy: But I can get by with it for four times before she blows up.
51:12
Nancy: I mean, we really, somebody said that I read somewhere, we train people how to treat us.
51:19
Brenda: Yes,
51:20
Nancy: we do.
51:21
Nancy: And that's true of toddlers, it's true of teenagers, it's true of addicts.
51:27
Nancy: We literally train people how to treat us.
51:30
Brenda: In closing, so I know I need to let you go, is there something that, just imagining a room full of parents who are all where you were maybe five years into your journey with Steven, sick, worried, frustrated, maybe some of them are seeing some light right at the end of the tunnel, what would you encourage them to do?
51:55
Brenda: Forgive
51:56
Nancy: yourself for whatever part you think you have played in this outcome.
52:03
Nancy: Let go of blaming yourself.
52:06
Nancy: When you blame yourself, it's like you are putting your hands in shackles.
52:13
Nancy: And it's harder to take effective action when you are feeling guilty and ashamed.
52:20
Nancy: So one of the, after Steve died, one of the exercises I was, I was finishing up my master's program and we were told to pick a project for our final year.
52:35
Nancy: And by that time, I had dealt with the Embarrassment, the shame of Steve's addiction, you know, all along.
52:45
Nancy: But after he died, it was like this giant boulder of self blame landed on my shoulders.
52:53
Nancy: And I asked if my project could be forgiving myself for holding myself accountable for Steven's, the way his life went.
53:05
Nancy: And they said, sure.
53:06
Nancy: So I, you know, I mapped out a plan of action.
53:10
Nancy: I would take a walk every morning and say to myself, hand over my heart, I forgive myself for judging myself as a bad parent.
53:19
Nancy: The truth is, every day of my life I've done the very best I knew how to do.
53:25
Nancy: And I would repeat that over and over again as I walked, like a walking meditation.
53:32
Nancy: And a few months later, in a story I won't go into, but I had an experience where I literally saw myself as a 23 year old kid with two babies in the hospital having the doctor tell me my husband was pronounced DOA.
53:51
Nancy: He had an aortic aneurysm.
53:53
Nancy: We didn't know he had died while playing softball.
53:57
Nancy: And I, I looked at that young girl and I thought I stayed alive for my kids.
54:05
Nancy: Got up every day, changed diapers, made oatmeal, scrambled an egg.
54:11
Nancy: I did everything I knew how to do to take care of them as children and every day of their lives.
54:19
Nancy: And that boulder of self blame just disintegrated.
54:25
Nancy: And very, very rarely a little touch of it would come back.
54:30
Nancy: But it was, it was easy to dispense, you know, the little thoughts of self blame.
54:38
Nancy: Now, I look back on those 15 years as some of the most productive self growth years that I've had.
54:51
Nancy: Stephen.
54:53
Nancy: Because he was my son, I'm so grateful that he was my son, because I learned so much from being his parent, and, you know, I wouldn't wish these lessons on anybody, but I, I learned so much that I won't trade for anything else, and even today, it's been over 20 years since Steve died, and even today, I'm so aware that I have his support from wherever he is, That he's happy, he's drug free, and he's doing whatever he can from where he is to support the work I do, including being present with us today.
55:38
Brenda: Yeah, no, I can feel it.
55:40
Brenda: I can feel it.
55:41
Brenda: I, I often think the same thing.
55:44
Brenda: I wouldn't trade those difficult years and I had a fraction of what you had.
55:49
Brenda: But I wouldn't trade those because I am such a different person today.
55:52
Brenda: And it's such a gift to have that self growth and to have the perspective that we have.
56:00
Brenda: Kind of, I always think of it, I'm sort of a visual person too.
56:02
Brenda: Like I think of it, I'm now on the other side and now I'm living real life and I'm feeling real feelings.
56:10
Brenda: And yes, I'm kind of a mess sometimes.
56:13
Brenda: And yes, like all the imperfections are out there and it's okay.
56:18
Brenda: And I love that because I would have felt so trapped if I was still living how I was before.
56:24
Brenda: My son, you know, really was my best teacher.
56:27
Nancy: I'm so glad to hear you say that.
56:30
Nancy: I don't think of the word survivors, I don't like being thought of as a survivor, but we're learners, you know, we're growers.
56:39
Nancy: And we, we, we're not the trap of just laying all the blame on somebody else.
56:44
Nancy: Bless you for the work you are doing.
56:47
Brenda: Thanks, Nancy.
56:47
Brenda: This has been just such a beautiful conversation.
56:50
Brenda: The book, Pungent Boundaries, you have to read it.
56:53
Brenda: There will be a link in the show notes to it and I'll link all your other books as well.
56:57
Brenda: And I just appreciate you so much.
57:00
Brenda: Thank you.
57:01
Brenda: Thank
57:01
Nancy: you, Brenda.
57:02
Nancy: Such a privilege to be here.
57:05
Brenda: Okay, my friend, that is a wrap for today.
57:07
Brenda: Don't forget to download the new ebook, Worried Sick.
57:10
Brenda: It's totally free and it will shed so much light on positive tools and strategies you can use right now.
57:17
Brenda: To start creating those positive conditions for change in your home and in your relationships.
57:23
Brenda: It is at hopestreamcommunity.
57:25
Brenda: org forward slash worried.
57:28
Brenda: And guess what?
57:29
Brenda: We have moved the entire podcast to our website at hopestreamcommunity.
57:34
Brenda: org.
57:35
Brenda: So now when you want the show notes or resources, or if you want to download a transcript, just go to hopestreamcommunity.
57:42
Brenda: org and click on podcast and you will find it all there.
57:46
Brenda: You can search by keyword, episode number, guest name, and we have created playlists for you.
57:52
Brenda: Makes it much easier to find episodes grouped by topic.
57:55
Brenda: So we're really excited to have that done and hope you like the podcast's new home.
58:01
Brenda: Please be extraordinarily good to yourself today.
58:04
Brenda: Take a deep breath.
58:06
Brenda: You've got this and you are going to be okay.
58:09
Brenda: You're not doing it alone.
58:11
Brenda: I will meet you right back here next week