Latest / UK Column Radio / Weekly UKC Banter: Episode 6

Transcript

Weekly UKC Banter: Episode 6 · UK Column Radio

0:35
None. I chatted a few days ago with a
0:40
friend of mine, Zubie. He is a Nigerian born hip hop
0:46
artist who grew up in Saudi Arabia for about 20 years and
0:52
has an American accent. It's the funniest thing.
0:54
Like he is the epitome of of internationalisation and his
0:59
story is is fantastic. But what's even better about
1:02
him, besides the fact that he has a huge following of like
1:06
1,000,000 or 2 million people on on X, he is remarkably uplifting
1:12
and positive and he gets so trashed for that and I find it
1:18
so disappointing, Mike. I don't know what to say to
1:24
that. I mean, I think this is, I think
1:26
what you're expressing is, is a, a recognition that, that the
1:32
majority of people are, are deeply pessimistic about, about
1:37
life, the universe and everything.
1:38
At the moment. It's, it's not surprising
1:40
because people are witnessing an out of control global elite and
1:47
they feel like they have no agency.
1:50
They feel like they have no way of dealing with it.
1:52
And. And in fact, I would argue that
1:56
that's simply wrong. It's it's more than pessimistic
2:01
though. It's almost nihilistic.
2:03
Yeah, but we have been trained. We've been trained through the
2:06
mass media. It doesn't matter whether it's
2:07
the news media or, or Hollywood or whatever.
2:11
We've been trained to think this way.
2:13
And and it's very hard to break out of that.
2:18
And you know, that's why a lot of people argue that what we
2:22
need is, is a cultural renaissance of some kind.
2:25
And, and, you know, that was the problem is that, that, you know,
2:30
the, the, the mass media entertainment is so sewn up that
2:35
it's very, very hard for people with, with positivity and people
2:39
with real cultural capability to break into, you know, to be
2:47
anything other than just an absolute niche.
2:51
And so, you know, I, I understand people's pessimism,
2:55
but, and as you say, possibly it's worse than that.
3:00
But you know, part of the problem is that I think part of
3:04
the problem is that we're not thinking about resistance really
3:09
with, we're looking for, we're looking for constantly looking
3:13
for a knight in shining armour to come and ride to the rescue
3:16
and save the day. And, and don't recognise that
3:18
actually the way out of this starts with us all individually
3:22
and how we feel within ourselves and, and what we're doing to, to
3:26
deal with our own thought processes and, and, and opinions
3:30
and, and ideology and so on. And, and that's where it has to
3:35
start. And we have to search for the,
3:39
the things that that we find uplifting.
3:42
And sometimes for some people that means actually getting
3:46
involved in some form of activism, activism.
3:48
But but for for most people, it has to start with just what we
3:53
consume and recognise that that that what we consume isn't
3:57
necessarily good for us. I think there are a number of
4:00
different things to consider and one of them, and I think quite
4:03
an important one, is to what extent the individual wraps
4:06
themselves up in the so called problems that they see around
4:12
them. You know, if you, I think in the
4:14
United Kingdom, I know we in Germany you're podcasts, you
4:19
quite a lot of your guests are not from South Africa, have not
4:23
been South Africa and come from a country that's generally
4:25
regarded as being in a better state, whatever exactly that may
4:30
mean. And I think, I think you
4:32
articulate the differences really well.
4:35
But I would say it's an objective truth that the, the,
4:41
the way in which the United Kingdom functions is not as good
4:47
as it was 10 years ago or 20 years ago or 30 years ago.
4:51
I think, I think the decline of services across the board and
4:57
standards of behaviour in public have have deteriorated.
5:02
And, and so that's, that's a negative.
5:05
But what I mean is when you, when you look at that, when you
5:09
consider that, if indeed that is your view that that is that is
5:11
my view. Do you think therefore that that
5:16
has an impact on your life that is so direct that you're taking
5:20
a negative view of your life because of those changes that
5:23
have happened around you? And it, this goes slightly back
5:25
because actually I, I was listening to Zubi on the way
5:28
back from Plymouth and IA lot of what he said, I, I absolutely
5:33
agreed with. And I, and I thought his point
5:35
about having children was a very good one in that the only reason
5:42
we're here is because every preceding generation has decided
5:46
that they will bring children into the world.
5:49
And to take the view that the world is such a rock and place
5:52
that you're not going to do that is remarkably pessimistic.
5:57
And, and so the point is that in a sense, regardless, and I know
6:03
that, that there is, this is said with, with an awareness of,
6:10
of there being a situation in which, you know, you are, say
6:14
you're in a sort of conflict zone where there's, there is
6:17
very little you can do about your circumstances immediately
6:20
around you. But, but in the most part,
6:22
whatever is going on around you doesn't have to affect the way
6:25
you think about the world and the way you regard your life.
6:28
You can still be positive and indeed lead a positive life in
6:32
as much as possible. And, and I think the, the reason
6:36
I've set it out like that is I think it slightly depends at
6:39
what point people have joined the roller coaster.
6:42
And this is, this is obviously a generalisation, but I think the
6:49
way I regard what's happened in, in our lifetimes and, and I
6:53
should think the lifetimes of anybody who might be listening
6:55
to this, is that all these things that we've seen the, the
7:00
various corruptions and so forth that have informed our world
7:06
view. And by that I mean a world view
7:07
that is outside of the one that the mainstream wants us to have.
7:12
That's all very well, or at least was all very well up until
7:16
2020. Because actually the way in
7:19
which things were wrong by and large didn't have to affect the
7:24
way that you lived your life until 2020, at which point you
7:29
were for the most part, actually prevented from doing stuff.
7:33
You know, if you, if you had a, a job that involved going to a
7:36
workplace, the likelihood is that was shut down.
7:39
If you usually went to a church, that was shut down.
7:42
If it, you know, so, so actually all your agency was taken away,
7:45
but that left you socially and often professionally outside of
7:51
the far bigger BLOB that went along with it.
7:54
And So what you needed was, in a sense, either ammunition or
7:58
vindication that you weren't mad.
8:01
And so when things did apparently get worse and worse
8:06
and worse, you know, as in the government did this and then did
8:09
that and then did that, you were sort of proving to yourself that
8:13
you were right. Of course, I can't speak for
8:15
everybody, but I think this is where we, a lot of people got
8:19
into a sort of pattern of not quite celebrating, but looking
8:26
for more bad news because it confirmed that their position
8:30
was the correct one, that they were right, that all this stuff
8:33
really was that bad. And the government really were
8:36
telegraphing that, that the next thing you know, even though
8:39
Jenny Harris and the rest of them had said absolutely don't
8:41
wear a mask, It's completely pointless only for them all to
8:44
come out, you know, 5 minimization and say, by the
8:46
way, the one thing you've really got to do is, is wear a mask.
8:48
So I, I do think that that that plays a huge part in it.
8:53
And also if that's when people did join, then the other, the
8:59
other part to it, I, I think is that, well, a similar part is it
9:05
is that it really was a sort of, you know, a whole whole society
9:09
thing. And to, to take the view that,
9:12
well, you know, I'm just going to be positive about it.
9:14
And and this and the other was it was, it was difficult,
9:17
really, really difficult because how really, how do you do that?
9:22
And I think, I think for, I think there's a sort of there's
9:25
a hangover. And so going back to the point
9:28
about, you know, Zooby getting jumped on for saying this and
9:31
the other, yeah, OK, I don't understand it.
9:34
And I think that anybody who had fallen into that trap should
9:39
really have found a way to get out of it.
9:41
And so then it that it does become a question of right,
9:44
well, what really, what do you want actually?
9:46
Do you want to just criticise and be negative about everything
9:50
or do you want to get out of it and improve your life?
9:54
And I'm afraid to say that I think quite a lot of people have
9:57
sadly been drawn into a situation where they do not want
10:02
to improve their circumstances. Yeah, I say nothing.
10:05
Because of the rooster. Yeah.
10:07
All right, OK, well, yeah, you know, he's having a he's having
10:11
a happy time. He's having a great time.
10:12
He's he's paying absolutely no attention to what anyone else is
10:15
telling him he's supposed to be doing.
10:17
Sorry, Mike, I interrupted you. Yeah.
10:19
No, I was just going to follow on for that a bit.
10:21
I think, I think what Charles said there about about people
10:27
wanting effectively confirmation that they were right is, is a
10:33
valid 1. I think, I think the mistake
10:35
that that most people made was that that's where they stopped.
10:39
Once they got that confirmation, that was enough.
10:41
Then they just wanted more and more confirmation of the same
10:44
thing. And, and, you know, resisting
10:49
and opposing bad policy doesn't stop with just consumption of
10:56
more of the bad information. I mean, you know what, what does
10:59
the UK column do? We we in a sense contribute to
11:03
that because we are telling people what's going on in the
11:06
world. But but our hope has always been
11:09
that that and a lot of people do do this.
11:12
But our hope has always been that people use that information
11:15
in a positive way and use it to, to, you know, help them inform
11:20
other people at the very least, but or or otherwise use it in
11:25
some form of activism and some actually doing something.
11:27
Because, because that it's that next step which actually takes
11:32
you out of the negativity. It's that next step of actually
11:35
getting, getting involved in, in fighting back against it that
11:39
that removes the fear, removes the anxiety, removes the
11:43
absolutely removes any sense that that the world has gone mad
11:46
because you are contributing hopefully to making it a better
11:52
place. And, you know, we actually, you
11:55
know, we do what we do because that, that's been our choice of,
12:00
of how we express our disgust and our opposition to, to what
12:06
certain elites are doing. But you know, hopefully others
12:13
take, take that up and, and recognise that taking that step
12:17
and doing something is what is what is needed to, to actually
12:21
change your mind from being one of pure negativity to because I
12:25
don't view the world in a, in a massively negative way at all.
12:28
I, I think that everything that is going on is, is ultimately
12:32
solvable. And if I didn't feel that I
12:34
wouldn't be doing what I'm doing.
12:35
So, so it's chicken and egg. I'm not sure which comes first,
12:40
the possibly, you know, Rooster. In Charles's case, rooster or
12:43
egg. I'm not sure I I think you're
12:45
getting into other areas. Of I think it's still chicken as
12:47
well. But I think the point that Zooby
12:53
is making is not just being blase about being oh, I'm just a
12:59
positive, happy go lucky person. That's obviously not what he's
13:02
saying. His positivity is about changing
13:06
yourself for the better. Yeah, I think another thing just
13:11
to introduce is the, the idea of, well, the, the association
13:18
of isolation with these sorts of tendencies or behaviours.
13:23
And the problem is that once you see it, you do well, a lot of
13:29
people want to evangelise and say, my goodness, have you any
13:33
idea what so and so is actually up to or, or what this actually
13:38
means? And the, the, it, it, the
13:42
problem is, I think for a lot of people, it's terribly easy to
13:45
forget what it's like when you haven't made that mental
13:50
transition. And so the, you know, we talked
13:53
about it before, but the, the, the well recognised backfire
13:56
effect where you, you bound up to the first person you see and
14:00
say, God, did you know, did you have any idea what this, that
14:03
and the other is all about? And of course, unless you're
14:06
very lucky, the response you will get is probably at best one
14:11
of sort of polite scepticism, but but at worst it could be an
14:16
absolute repulsion, not just of what you've said, but but
14:20
therefore of you also. And so I think for a lot of
14:23
people who have tried to in effect, help others by making
14:28
them aware of whatever it is that they now know about the,
14:33
the effect has sort of been the opposite.
14:35
And they've been pushed further and further into, as I say, it's
14:38
a sense of isolation, which comes with the feelings of, of
14:44
negativity. So I, I think not, not, not in
14:49
any way dismissing what Zubi says, but I, but I, I do have
14:52
great sympathy for people who've sort of ended up in that
14:55
position. And you know, let's not forget
14:57
that this is this has happened in within families.
15:01
I mean, it is too desperate for words, the fact that people have
15:04
actually turned against each other, or more accurately, been
15:07
turned against each other by presenting conflicting beliefs
15:12
and narratives. But that again speaks to the
15:15
problem, which of course is why is it that we live in a society
15:18
now where we can't apparently talk to each other about this,
15:24
that and the other, or at least you have to be very, very
15:27
careful of the ground that you prepare in order to lead into a
15:30
discussion about something, because otherwise it will, it
15:34
will go wrong. People will make a knee jerk
15:37
judgement of you and, and immediately therefore dismiss
15:41
the material. So I mean, I'm, I'm right with
15:46
him. I mean the, the, the core, the
15:48
core tenet I would say is if, if you start with a feeling of
15:55
negativity or rather the other way about, I suppose if you do
15:58
not start with a feeling of positivity and an absolute
16:03
definite belief in the sense that you are going to achieve
16:07
what you're going to achieve, whether that be just a state of
16:10
mind or, or something else, you, you are extremely unlikely to do
16:15
it. I would go further than that.
16:17
I would say that that a lot of people have experienced that
16:22
situation of, of attempting to, to bring up topics with, with
16:25
others and, and getting a, a massive rebuff in return.
16:30
But within the so called truth movement, within that group of
16:36
people, they're fighting amongst themselves as well because
16:40
they're, because people have lost the willingness and the
16:44
ability to listen that everybody has decided that they are right
16:49
and that everybody else is wrong.
16:51
Even within the so called truth movement, this is the case.
16:54
And people have lost this if they ever had it in the first
16:58
place, but they've lost any sort of inquire, sense of inquiry.
17:03
And you know, and so we should be, in my opinion, we should be
17:08
attempting to learn from each other, not attempting to
17:10
bludgeon each other over the head with what we know.
17:13
And you know, I, this is, I've told this story before.
17:17
I don't in certain circumstances, but you know,
17:19
when I was in school and was having a discussion with
17:23
somebody and, and they turned around and said, who the hell do
17:26
you think you are to be telling me what to think?
17:28
And I, I said, well, I'm not telling you what to think.
17:30
I'm telling you what I think. And, and this is, this actually
17:33
is part of the problem. We, we're determined that, that
17:35
we're going to tell everybody what we think and, and that
17:38
we're right and, and, and so on. And if we can't, if we can't
17:44
form a sense of community within the people that are supposedly
17:48
awake and we can't learn, relearn how to listen, then then
17:54
of course we're going to feel isolated, as Charles says.
17:56
And that, that feeds the negativity.
17:58
So we've got a, we've got a, it all starts with ourselves.
18:02
We've got to recognise that societies and, and networks and
18:05
groups are made up of individuals.
18:08
And, and so, you know, it's not, it's not actually about
18:11
criticising, it's not even about criticising the king or the
18:15
Prime Minister or what, whatever.
18:17
It's we've got to start with criticising ourselves and, and
18:20
recognising that this begins with us as individuals.
18:23
And and until we change ourselves and inside, we're not
18:27
going to change anything in in the so called real world.
18:31
What amplifies this whole thing is that that cue nonsense in
18:36
which the white hats are coming to save us so we can just sit
18:38
back and and wait, and they're going to do everything because
18:41
they're playing 5D chess. Yeah, we're going back to the
18:44
truth movement, whatever that's supposed to mean.
18:47
The, the, you know, people have to be a bit more discerning
18:50
about choosing, choosing those people, you know, Mike, talking
18:56
about forming communities. And I think it, you know, what's
19:02
been demonstrated over the last few years and increasingly so, I
19:05
would say, is that simply sharing a belief that you are
19:13
part of the truth movement and that you reject the sort of
19:17
mainstream narratives and this that and the other.
19:19
I mean, that that's not enough or indeed that that is not a,
19:24
that is not really a sort of worthy criteria.
19:27
I mean, people's character and outlook and ability to put
19:32
things to one side and and retain a sense of perspective
19:35
and actually get on and do things are really what matters.
19:39
And if you have, if you do have different beliefs on certain
19:46
things, but you are not going to fall out over them.
19:51
And you do, because I think ultimately, when we, if you step
19:58
back, you look at, look at what, what is it that motivates
20:02
people? And, and again, this came up
20:03
with Zubi talking about parts of the world that were considered
20:07
to be more dangerous. I think it was, he made the
20:09
point, which I thought was it was a very good one about the
20:14
reports you get. You know, if, if you anyone
20:17
who's ever heard anything about it doesn't really matter, but
20:22
you know, pick a place. If you haven't been there, then
20:24
the likelihood is you will have heard a.
20:27
AD report about it. You may have heard some some
20:30
good stuff because some you know, perhaps they hosted an
20:32
Olympic Games or something propaganda fest, but but mostly
20:37
you would have heard that something bad has happened
20:39
because that's how the that's how the news cycle works.
20:42
And yet when you go to that particular place, you think, all
20:45
right, OK, so the, the, whatever it was that the incident that I
20:50
saw on the news is not in fact happening on repeat the entire
20:54
time in this place. And, and, and there we go.
20:58
So you've got, you've got a situation in which by and large,
21:03
people are wanting to do positive things for reasons that
21:07
they believe are the right ones. And I think it's a, it's a
21:11
massive mistake just to think that because people have
21:14
different beliefs about the particular topic, that their,
21:21
their motivations and their goals are different from yours,
21:25
that they're ultimately they're not.
21:26
I mean, you know, if we look at the, again, going back to the,
21:30
the dreadful COVID years, the motivations by and large were
21:35
the same either side. People, people either chose to
21:40
do something or didn't choose to do something because they wanted
21:44
a particular outcome. And that was to do with
21:46
consideration for other people, you know, masks being such an
21:51
obvious one, the mask wearer would would have had the belief
21:56
that it was preventing other people from getting I'll,
21:59
whereas the non wearer of the mask did not want to prevent
22:04
prevent, you know, communication and the feeling of human contact
22:08
or or whatever. I mean, you know, it's that
22:09
simple. But and yet on the on the face
22:11
of it, you've got people who appear to be doing stuff that is
22:15
completely different. Well, actually they're not.
22:17
They've just, I mean, I've said this before, they've just been
22:19
presented with or taken a different view on, on the
22:21
information they've been presented with.
22:24
The COVID era paradoxically has made me so much more positive
22:30
and solutions orientated about life.
22:33
Well, I, I think there's a reason for that, Jeremy.
22:36
I think it's, you know, there's my observation is that there's,
22:40
there's two. Well, let's just, let's just say
22:44
looking at things from a particular point of view,
22:45
there's two main types of people in the world.
22:48
There's people that produce stuff and there's people that
22:50
consume stuff. Now you're a producer because
22:52
you're producing this podcast and you're, you're taking an
22:55
active role in your life. For the majority of people,
23:00
that's it's, it's a different situation.
23:02
They sit on the sofa and they consume, They consume what the
23:06
mainstream media puts out. They consume food, they consume
23:09
drink, they consume YouTube videos and so on.
23:13
And they're, they're never actually producing anything.
23:16
And, and it, you know, this, this is, this is also feeding
23:21
feelings of negativity and feelings of uselessness and
23:23
feelings of no agency. And, you know, just just learn a
23:27
skill, do something different. Go to the gym, as you say.
23:32
And, and you know, these things aren't necessarily the easiest
23:36
steps to take. I'm not and I'm not in any way
23:40
criticising anybody. This is, this is just an
23:42
observation. And and I'm going to say, you
23:45
know, I put myself at the at the top of the list for all these
23:48
comments that I'm making. But you know, that just just
23:52
taking that step of, of, of, of taking, of doing something
23:56
active in, in our lives changes our outlook.
24:00
Absolutely. It absolutely does.
24:03
And and I, I, well, I'm sure we can all think of people that,
24:07
that, that have done that in German likewise, you know, you,
24:11
I think the more, the more one considers it and, and dwells
24:15
upon it and make, you know, when you do make conscious efforts or
24:18
you do change, change those things, the benefits are so easy
24:23
to see and they and they, they have a sort of upward spiral
24:28
effect as well. I think that's the, that's the
24:30
other thing, you know, to, to begin to get out of the
24:33
situation of negativity has, has increasingly, I would say for
24:39
the most part has increasingly positive consequences.
24:42
It's not, it's, it's, it's not just sort of one step forward, 2
24:46
steps backwards. It certainly shouldn't be it,
24:49
you know, the, the, the start, the hardest part of course, is
24:54
the, is the start. But I think once that's once
24:57
that's made and once there's a recognition that some difference
25:00
has been made, some grounds been gained, then you know the the
25:05
rest of it in, in relative terms is sort of straightforward.
25:08
You just keep going. Bob Moran made a great comment.
25:12
I think I've mentioned this before.
25:14
He said that you must just treat everything as if it's theatre.
25:18
Yeah, I mean, I think absolutely for for those that, well, I
25:22
mean, you know, let's face it, for those things that don't
25:24
directly concern you if you're I, I, I don't remember him
25:28
saying that, but but I, I would imagine he's talking about
25:32
things that are sort of a bit more remote because that,
25:36
because that again, that's another yeah, we've we've talked
25:39
about that before as well. But if you, if you do just if
25:43
you switch all this stuff off, because let's face it, it is a
25:45
question of switching stuff on and off.
25:47
I mean, OK, sometimes people will go and sit in the in the
25:50
gallery in the in the House Commons or House of Lords or
25:53
whatever, or they will go to sort of public debate or this
25:56
that now. But by and large, we're
25:57
consuming all this stuff on a screen and it doesn't exist if
26:01
you turn screen off. So that that is absolutely
26:06
another part of it. And considering, you know,
26:09
separating the parts of your life that that are real and that
26:13
are happening because they are right there around and in front
26:17
of you. And those that bits that that
26:19
aren't the, the what other people are up to need not really
26:27
affect you in in any particular way.
26:30
It's that's, that's your choice. You know, yes, a lot of what we
26:36
talk about are changes to this, that and the other.
26:41
And I'm, I don't mean to suggest that you can sort of you can put
26:47
yourself in a position with any great degree of ease, which
26:49
means that you won't be affected by all of this.
26:51
And I think that's going back to say the Zubi point.
26:56
I think some of the, I know this is not particular to him.
27:01
I have no idea if, if he's susceptible to this.
27:04
I think some people, particularly who are sort of
27:08
prominent on social media, whatever can attract, let's say,
27:14
criticism because they appear to be putting forward a sort of
27:19
what I, I've never been on Facebook, but what I would
27:21
describe as a Facebook lifestyle.
27:23
Like I couldn't understand the concept of Facebook because I,
27:25
I, my first sort of engagement with technology was on was email
27:30
and the, the reply all, like group reply all email, which was
27:34
always a joke, usually at somebody's expense.
27:37
And then suddenly I was being told about this thing called
27:39
Facebook where people just posted photographs and everyone
27:42
said, oh, lovely, How nice. And I, I really just, I didn't
27:46
get it at all. But but the point is that that
27:50
these days, the sort of the equivalent to that is people who
27:53
just put a lifestyle onto social media that suggests that they
27:58
have absolutely no impediment to anything they want to do.
28:01
You know, they're always surrounded by sort of amazing
28:04
food and wine and sort of endless beaches and swimming
28:07
pools. And you just think, right, OK,
28:08
well, I'm not sure that's really very relatable.
28:12
And, and I think that's why there can be some criticism
28:17
drawn. But, but I mean that that's, you
28:20
know, I'm, I'm using a sort of an extreme example.
28:24
Otherwise, if you are just talking about the things that
28:27
are around you in a more normal sense and suggesting that that
28:31
you can deal with those things, then then, you know, why does
28:34
the rest of it matter? I don't, I don't, I don't see
28:37
why it should. I mean, that's that's sort of
28:39
our failing if we let it. How do you feel after you've had
28:43
a conversation or you've spent time with a certain person?
28:48
So for example, I, I made a very difficult decision during the
28:52
COVID era to kind of disconnect myself from from people who were
28:57
having a very sort of toxic effect on me.
29:01
I think it's essential and you know, we, we have the ability
29:07
to, to meet people and make friends and so on.
29:11
We absolutely have to be discerning about who we're
29:13
spending time with and decide whether it's healthy for us.
29:16
It's, it's no different to, to any other input, you know, in
29:21
terms of food or drink or the air we breathe or whatever the,
29:26
the lifestyle that we lead. It's absolutely a key part.
29:30
We are influenced by everything that's around us.
29:33
And of course we're influenced particularly by people that we
29:36
consider to be our peers. And if we have surrounded
29:39
ourselves with, with, with people that are that way, then
29:45
of course we're going to be that way too.
29:47
It, it could be difficult to maybe change that.
29:53
Again, unfortunately, it all comes back to ourselves first
29:57
because, because we can't expect anybody else to get us out of
30:00
that mindset. We've got to, we've got to take
30:03
the decision that we're not going to think this way anymore
30:06
and then try to find other people that are also, you know,
30:11
not thinking that way. And and it's, you know, that
30:15
that that has to be where it starts.
30:17
That's always where it starts. And.
30:20
That's how you that's how you win battles.
30:22
By the way, Mike, it starts with you.
30:25
Right. Absolutely no, no, I was just
30:28
going to say in a conversational sense, I mean a conversation by
30:32
knowledge, we usually mean with one other person.
30:34
I, I guess not, not always, obviously this being an
30:37
exception, but the, the, the point is that I know, I know
30:43
exactly what you mean. You know, you can be in
30:46
conversations that appear to be depressing, but you shouldn't
30:48
forget that you are half of that conversation.
30:49
And therefore you should have the ability to, to turn
30:55
manoeuvre that conversation or to or change the tone or the
30:58
tenor of it into a positive space.
31:02
So yes, you might find that that there are people presenting with
31:08
negativity, negative points, negative talking points,
31:10
whatever it is. And so it, I would say there's,
31:13
there's, you know, what have you got to lose by trying to turn
31:18
that into a positive or at least into something more neutral.
31:22
Just trying to understand more about it and find out why it is
31:26
that such and such a thing is regarded as being negative.
31:32
And, you know, just just just to get to the bottom of of these
31:35
sorts of things. Because, yeah, I mean, what one
31:36
of course 1 gets presented with with these sorts of things all
31:39
the time. Or indeed just the, you know,
31:42
it's very sort of bizarre things.
31:44
I mean, I, I was at an event a couple of months ago where I
31:50
was, I have to say I was, I was totally bamboozled.
31:52
A lady came up to me and said she, she had driven to the event
31:59
on a road that I was familiar with and said, now what do you
32:04
think these things are on the side of the road?
32:07
They're sort of they're like rectangular, dark, rectangular
32:11
things with other stuff attached to them.
32:15
So I said, do you mean the, the solar panels which are, you
32:20
know, attached to like roadside Rd works lights and, and, and
32:24
those sorts things? And turned out she did mean
32:27
that. And she did know that they were
32:28
solar panels. But her, her suggestion or
32:31
question was, do you think they are something else as well?
32:38
And I had never considered such a thing.
32:42
But it was clear that the reason for her question was because she
32:45
was, she was quite determined to be fearful of these things,
32:49
which by the way, were absolutely, definitely solar
32:53
panels and just solar panels. But so the, you know, of course,
32:59
I could have perpetuated the fear that I was detecting or
33:07
not. And, and I chose not.
33:09
So we just had a, you know, we just had a matter of fact
33:11
conversation in which I wasn't dismissive, but, but I felt that
33:14
I would talk about it on a, you know, a slightly different
33:18
level. And, and hopefully the
33:21
conclusion of the conversation was, was that her point of view
33:24
about that was, was slightly better or less negative, less
33:27
fearful than it had been at the start.
33:30
So, so I think one always has the choice of whether to feed
33:34
and fuel that negativity that's presented to you or, or to try
33:37
to, to turn it or, or better understand it.
33:40
And I think once you do better, better understand it, whatever
33:43
it is that then you're, you're in a much more commanding
33:47
position to be able to influence that conversation.
33:50
And hopefully that person, if they're, you know, if they're
33:52
struggling, because I think that's, that's the other thing.
33:54
I think we, you know, compassion.
33:58
Compassion. Yeah, a bit anyway.
34:00
Sorry. No, Charles, I think, I think
34:03
you're actually hitting the nail on the head there in a sense
34:07
because because there is no question that a lot of people in
34:13
the world, particularly since 2020 have been damaged by what
34:18
is going on around them. And you know, one of the, one of
34:23
the most flattering things that that was said about the column
34:26
over those COVID years was you kept us in well, that, that,
34:32
that was a nice side effect of what we were doing.
34:36
It wasn't, it wasn't something that we actually considered at
34:39
the time. That was just an effect of the
34:41
way that we were presenting the information perhaps.
34:45
But I think it's, I think it's something that, you know, is, it
34:49
would, is a really positive thing that we can all do is that
34:53
when we see somebody fearful about current events, that we
34:58
just take the time to help them through that and, and help them
35:02
recognise that, that, you know, first of all, nothing is
35:08
achieved by living in a state of fear other than our own self
35:12
destruction. But, but just to try to put
35:15
things in a in a bit of context that helps them deal with, with
35:19
life and with the situation. So many people I hear now
35:22
saying, you know, I've just, I have just switched everything
35:25
off. I've switched the news off, I've
35:26
switched every all social media off.
35:28
I'm not interested in what's going on in the world.
35:30
Well, you know that that's fine. If that's what's needed at that
35:35
moment, then then do that. But of course that isn't going
35:38
to stop the, the events that are going on around us.
35:42
And it isn't going to, you know, at the end of the day, we, at
35:45
least I feel that I have a, a moral obligation to, to do what
35:49
I can, whatever little I can to help change the direction of, of
35:55
future events. And, and help is the keyword
35:58
because, you know, none of us as individuals can, can do
36:02
everything or, or even anything massively significant.
36:06
It has to be a team effort. And so, and so, you know, but,
36:11
but, but it's, we've made this point over and over again during
36:16
this conversation. It starts with us as
36:18
individuals, but it's, it is without question also about
36:23
whether it's all about us as individuals or whether we're
36:26
prepared to, to help and, and, and helping isn't necessarily
36:31
just bludgeoning people over the head with, with facts and, and,
36:34
and saying that they're wrong all the time.
36:36
Help, help might be actually helping people through their own
36:41
thought processes. And, and actually, I believe
36:45
that there are many, many more people that are reconsidering
36:49
their view of the world at the moment than we know about.
36:53
And if we, if we go in with a sledgehammer, we actually push
36:57
them back into the old mindset. And, and we've got to be gentle
37:01
with people, you know, and this, this is something that we've
37:04
been trying to, to encourage for, for many years.
37:09
But so think about it in those terms, I think would be would be
37:15
what I would encourage. It's a very, it's a very, very
37:19
important point, whether it's beliefs or actions, but they,
37:23
they have to be owned by the individual on the subject of
37:26
ownership. Because if that is not the case,
37:29
then that spells disaster when anything goes wrong.
37:34
Because if you, if you, let's say you, you convince somebody
37:39
of such and such a thing to be the case.
37:42
And they're, they're actually not necessarily ready to receive
37:45
that or ready to take it on board.
37:46
It's not, it's not so much their decision to have to have done
37:51
that or worse still, if it's a, if it's something that pertains
37:55
to an action or decision in their life and then it goes
37:58
wrong, of course not their fault.
38:00
It's your fault because you introduce the idea or you
38:04
introduce the advice that that that led them to take a
38:08
particular action. And, and you're absolutely
38:11
right. People have to be ready to
38:13
receive in in whatever situation.
38:17
I mean, I'd say people, you know, like, like, I'm different,
38:19
I'm exactly the same. We're all the same.
38:22
It, it just doesn't work the other way around.
38:25
And and we need to spend more time stopping and thinking about
38:28
that and putting the boot on the other foot just to go back one
38:33
anecdotally, yes, the sanity thing is absolutely critical.
38:37
And I do remember, I mean, I, I hope this is of interest, but
38:41
but I was prime. I mean, believe it or not, prior
38:45
to working for UK column, I was in the police.
38:48
I was, I was a detective and I can remember the height of the
38:55
sort of, you know, you must be mad if you're not having 25
38:59
vaccines a minute kind of period.
39:03
And thought I do just looking around at what did seem to be an
39:07
absolutely crazy society where this seemed to be the view
39:12
across the board. And I sat and said and this was
39:15
having having had no prior contact with the UK column at
39:18
all. And I'd said I, I said sat in it
39:22
was sort of late December 2021. It must have been I, I don't
39:29
think, I think I am temperamentally unsuited to work
39:33
for any other organisation. I mean, any, you know, any
39:37
organisation in the world. Like I just cannot see a single
39:40
outfit that I, that I would sort of belong in except for UK
39:44
column. And that's anyway that, that's
39:48
what I said and talking about this idea that, you know, you
39:51
have to believe something first before you can make it happen.
39:55
I mean, OK, I'm, that's that I, I don't mean that it's a bit of
39:58
a shoehorning exercise to, to explain.
40:00
That's why I'm here now. But the the.
40:03
The, the point of it was that was that absolutely the sanity
40:05
side of it was, was very, very critical.
40:10
And that was, you know, when I think back to my perspective
40:13
then to consider that UK column was offering that, that calm and
40:19
rational examination of what was going on.
40:24
And I hope today still what is going on rather than the
40:30
explosive sort of sensationalist approach to treatment of the
40:36
same subjects, which I don't think really does anybody any
40:39
favours, certainly not in the long term.
40:43
And then just another anecdote in terms of how, how much one
40:50
must persist. Germ, you will also be familiar
40:54
with this. But because obviously we've had
40:56
conversations about it. I've, I've explored to a certain
40:59
extent the, the way in which the Church of England manages the
41:02
enormous amounts of money that it sits on.
41:04
And by coincidence, this year in back of February, the General
41:09
Synod, the the Bishop of Bath and Wells spoke out about the
41:14
one of the things I've touched on, which is how little money is
41:17
dispersed by the church commissioners to the churches
41:20
for their upkeep. And as somebody who's involved
41:23
with the with the church locally, I can tell you that
41:24
every single church in the country pretty much has some
41:27
sort of buildings related issue which is going to cost a
41:30
fortune. And everybody else is, you know,
41:32
the, the congregation by and I just asked to pay for it.
41:35
Anyway, long and boring story, but I, I'd, I'd written a couple
41:38
of articles for the column and I, and having seen that the,
41:40
the, the bath and Wells had had written about this and spoken
41:43
about it. I got in touch with him and
41:45
said, right, Matey, as well as what you're pointing out, are
41:50
you aware that that this is how the Church Commission runs its
41:54
runs the funds in the 1st place, you know, that they are able to
41:57
invest in pornography, weapons and and genomics and that kind
42:00
of thing. And remarkably, I mean, OK, he
42:03
replied, but he just said, he said, oh, well, you know, that
42:08
might be something you want to take up with the Church
42:10
Commissioners that you might want to take up with the Church
42:13
Commissioners. I mean, yeah, the fact that he
42:14
is a sitting Bishop in the Church of England and yet he
42:17
didn't want to have anything to do with it was extraordinary.
42:22
Anyway, I, I will obviously continue but but but you know,
42:27
so yes, we have to take these steps, but you but you do also
42:30
have to be prepared to be beaten back at every level, but you
42:35
keep going. What's the moral of the story?
42:41
What, that particular story or the general moral of the story?
42:45
I suppose that's they're probably 1 and the same.
42:54
Yeah, I'm just trying to think of something that that's not
42:56
going to sound too trite because remaining positive would be such
43:01
a sort of, you know, such an easy thing to say.
43:04
But I, but I, I mean, crikey, never, ever give up with
43:08
anything. And I think I say that as
43:10
somebody who's, who's had a majority of, of a lifetime of
43:17
bit of sort of, you know, being in a lot of situations where
43:21
practically speaking, the outlook is, is a bit bleak.
43:26
You know, the sort of stuck in the middle of nowhere with, umm,
43:31
armed with any paper clip or, you know, I mean, I, I, I'm
43:34
being a bit facetious, but, but the point is being in situations
43:37
where it appears that that all is lost and rather than thinking
43:42
all is lost, you think, right, OK, well, I've got this and I've
43:46
got that, which means that I can make such and such a thing.
43:50
And do you, you basically look at every single situation in
43:55
terms of how are you going to get out of it?
43:58
How are you going to make the best of it rather than sitting
44:02
back and thinking right. Well, that's me done for, you
44:05
know, that was beyond my control.
44:07
I couldn't help that. So therefore I am helpless that
44:10
that is absolutely never, ever the case.
44:13
And, and I'm talking I, I, you know, I'm slightly figurative,
44:15
but, but I don't mean it figuratively.
44:17
I, I, I do mean it literally and I, and I really do mean it
44:20
mentally. And it, it all starts in the
44:23
mind. And if you don't have that in
44:25
your mind, then then you cannot, uh, translate any of this into,
44:31
into an effect. So, so hold it in your mind
44:34
always. And even if it means having to
44:37
have a, a brief period of, of stepping back and just
44:39
evaluating in order that you don't concede defeat, then do
44:44
that. Just just retain a sense of
44:46
perspective, but never ever lose that sense of being able to
44:52
overcome whatever is put in your path.
44:55
I would say that one of the things that we've got to do is
44:59
to be, is to take that step back and actually be a little bit
45:04
objective about the events that are going on around us.
45:08
We are looking at A, at a world which is, which seems on the
45:13
surface to be completely off its head, completely insane and
45:19
completely out of control. And recognise that actually the
45:25
reason for that is because the people that are running this
45:28
planet are out of control. They're out of control because
45:31
they're not winning. They're out of control because
45:34
they're not achieving the goals that they've set for themselves.
45:36
They're out of control because they are, they're increasingly
45:40
desperate. And, you know, over the last 20
45:43
or 30 years, you just sit and watch people becoming Prime
45:49
Minister or becoming, taking on some kind of role of so called
45:53
authority. And, and they look one way when
45:57
they enter that job. And when they leave the job,
46:00
they look almost broken. They, they, they're grey haired
46:05
or their hairs falling out. They're certainly looking
46:07
significantly older. They're looking like they didn't
46:09
have any, that they've got no energy left.
46:13
We got to look at that, at that objectively and recognise that
46:16
these people are not enjoying themselves.
46:19
And, and, and, and, you know, I don't want to take pleasure from
46:23
that necessarily, but, but just to recognise that, that, that
46:26
this is the, the events are as they are because things are not
46:30
going well for, for the, the, the goals and the objectives of,
46:34
of, of some of these, these people and these organisations.
46:38
And so, uh, you know, even even at the darkest moments there,
46:42
there's a lot of if, if we can see the positivity that's in it,
46:46
there's a lot to be positive about.
46:48
And, and to recognise that that actually part of the reason that
46:52
they are feeling this way and that they are behaving this way
46:56
is because the COVID operation didn't work.
47:00
And, and there was enough opposition and enough resistance
47:04
to it and enough people just standing up saying rubbish.
47:09
We can see what you're doing that that they weren't able to
47:12
achieve all their goals. We're just going to keep doing
47:14
that and and and as Charles says, never give up because the
47:19
nothing is ever lost until we're dead.
47:22
So that's that would be my thoughts on that.
47:27
I think another way of packaging the idea of positivity, which
47:30
has obviously been the undercurrent of this
47:32
conversation, is the metaphor of the white pool or just simply
47:37
being solutions orientated. It's it's really that simple.
47:41
I mean, if you aren't trying to solve the problems in your
47:45
personal life first, then you, then you're not being positive
47:50
you you're being somewhat destructive.
47:51
Yeah. But Chair, I'm just, let me,
47:53
just let me interject there for one second, because I think
47:56
what's really important is that because what you're saying is
47:59
absolutely right, but what we've all got to make sure that we're
48:02
doing is, is not waiting for somebody else to do that for us.
48:06
100%, yes, 100%. But that's exactly where I was
48:11
going with that. You know, you got to start, as
48:14
we keep saying, start with you and then go outwards from there.
48:19
You cannot fix the Ukraine or Gaza situation.
48:23
You cannot. There's nothing you can do.
48:25
You cannot stop the, the, the BIS, you know, you cannot stop
48:29
the UN, but what you can do to stop the nonsense that's coming
48:34
directly into your personal life and into your family?
48:37
And then from there you can affect change within your
48:39
community. And then it it kind of goes out
48:41
from there. Yeah, and and sometimes we get
48:45
glimpses into how effective any of this is being specifically,
48:49
you know, and just refer to the to the COVID sort of overreach
48:53
and and cock up in terms of rolling out a plan.
48:57
OK, obviously it's vulnerable to all sorts of inaccuracies, one
49:04
would guess. But there's a there's a report
49:06
just published in The Lancet saying that vaccination rates
49:11
worldwide have declined very substantially since 2020.
49:16
And you know, and I don't say that thinking, oh, you know,
49:20
that's just great. People are, people are not
49:25
taking pharmaceutical products that might help them.
49:29
I'm saying that that's because people have actually stopped and
49:31
thought about it and considered that those products are not
49:34
going to help them. So it's, it's a, it's to be
49:37
really specific about it. It is a question of people
49:40
actually being aware of a particular plot, as it were,
49:47
and, and reacting against it. And, and that is now
49:50
demonstrated by these statistics, as I say, yes, OK,
49:55
with all statistics, one has to be very, very careful about how
49:59
you interpret them or whether you even give them any credence
50:02
in the 1st place. But but, but nonetheless, you
50:05
know, that is out there, that is it, that is a that is a pretty
50:09
substantial demonstration of exactly what you 2 have just
50:12
been talking about. Well, let's come in for the
50:16
landing. Looking at the time, final
50:19
thoughts, Mike? Good one.
50:30
What can I say? Mikes final thought.
50:35
I mean, it has sort of positive note to it.
50:39
I think the, the well, actually what would be nice is this time
50:42
next week we'll be able to talk about meeting people in person
50:45
because we're off, we're about to trundle off to an event in
50:49
the South England countryside in Dorset, an event called Sounds
50:54
Beautiful, which we did go to last year.
50:55
It was really good fun. And, and, and this is where we
50:59
get to sort of test out this sort of stuff that we talk about
51:03
because we will be rubbing shoulders with all sorts of
51:06
people. And, and actually, I, I that
51:09
that really is the case because I remember last year and, you
51:12
know, this is not too surprising.
51:14
But in addition to people who had heard of sounds beautiful
51:19
from the likes of UK column or, or sort of all the channels that
51:22
they were tuned into, there were also people just just who were
51:26
folk local to the event in Dorset and therefore had just
51:30
gone long because it was a, you know, it was an event and it had
51:33
interesting stands and, and music and talk and stuff.
51:36
So there will be a really good cross section of people there.
51:39
And, and, you know, it is up to us to make sure that the
51:44
interactions that we have and the experiences that people have
51:47
at that festival are overwhelmingly positive.
51:49
And that people do go away feeling lifted and feeling that
51:53
they can make those changes to their lives and to, you know,
51:58
engender the support of a community and, and to push on.
52:01
And, you know, this is in itself an act of defiance, resistance,
52:07
call it what you like, because the the you know, don't forget,
52:09
these are these are precisely the things that the ill doers
52:17
want to shut down. They want to prevent these sorts
52:19
of things from happening. They want to prevent positive
52:22
association. So yeah, that that's for us.
52:25
That's our sort of look forward to is it is a weekend of seeing,
52:28
you know, just getting out there and seeing people and being, you
52:33
know, actually in a in a really beautiful part of the world and
52:38
and making absolutely making the most of it.
52:40
And hopefully, hopefully the weather will be good.
52:42
But you know, just as a general point, anytime people get
52:47
together, doesn't matter whether it's the UK column event or
52:49
sounds beautiful or they stand in the light or the the the
52:54
lights festival. Once these people, once people
52:58
are are together and feeling with others, it's always a
53:05
massively positive event. It's brilliant.
53:08
And and so you know, this, the theme of this discussion has
53:13
been it starts with ourselves, it starts with ourselves and it
53:16
starts with us getting out and, and off the sofa or off the
53:21
office chair or whatever it is. We sit, watch the computer
53:25
screen, switch the computer off and get out and actually have
53:29
some real human interaction. And it ends with the glorious
53:34
sounds of chickens in the background.
53:36
Well, I, I would hope so, yeah, absolutely.
53:40
For, for always. I mean, yeah, they're, but they,
53:43
you know, this is, it is a, it is a lovely, lovely thing to be
53:46
surrounded by. You know, and, and I don't mean
53:49
this as a sort of throwaway thing, but watching, watching
53:54
groups of animals of of all different species just just
53:57
crack on and do their thing is, is so inspiring, always
54:03
inspiring and amusing. You know, we frequently end up
54:06
with chickens in the house. I have, I have plenty coming in
54:08
here in in the office of the door open.
54:10
Luckily none has has destroyed any equipment yet, but it's only
54:13
a matter of time, presumably. So, yeah, you know, why not?
54:17
And yet, and yet we live in these bizarre sort of rigid
54:22
groupings or, or, or whatever. And we and, and, and to a large
54:26
extent we've forgotten about our, our natural instincts
54:31
towards, I would say positivity and, and cooperation.
54:37
So let's just get back to that.