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The Occult Rejects with Dr. Justin Sledge from ESOTERICA · The Occult Rejects

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: You see, something's going to happen. What's going to happen?
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: What Welcome back to the occult rejects. Tonight we are
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: getting into one of the strangest and most uncomfortable territories
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: in religious history, the place where the Bible, magic, Christian mysticism,
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: angelic powers, Kabbalah, and grimoires all start bleeding into each other.
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: We are usually told that Christianity stood on one side
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: and magic stood on the other. Church over here, sorcery
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: over there, prayer over here, spellwork over there, miracles over here,
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: forbidden art over there. But history is rarely that clean.
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: The dpu look the more complicated it gets. Christianity condemns magic,
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: but Christian history is filled with ritual power, exorcisms, relics,
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: holy water, sacred oil, blessings and psalms used for protection,
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: saints called upon for help, angels invoked by name, deemans
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: commanded in the name of God, bodies, houses, fields, weapons, animals,
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: engraves blessed or protected through sacred words and sacred objects.
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: And then, sitting in the middle of all this, you
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: have grimors, books that many people imagine as anti Christian
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: or Satanic, but which are often packed with prayers, fasting, confession,
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: divine names, biblical authority, angelic hierarchies, and appeals to the
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: God of Abraham. So where is the thin line? When
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: does prayer become magic? When does a blessing become a charm?
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: When does angelic devotion become angelic conjuration? When does mysticism
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: become ritual technology? And who gets to decide whether something
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: is wholly heretical or for my guest tonight is doctor
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: Justin's Sledge, the creator of Esoterica, one of the most
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  Speaker 2: important and biggest academic projects dealing with Western esotericism, magic, mysticism, kabbalah, alchemy,
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: hermetic philosophy, grim Wore's gnosticism, and the stranger edges of
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: religious history. What makes his work so valuable is that
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: he takes this material seriously without turning it into fantasy.
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  Speaker 2: He does not need to flatten the occult into superstition,
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: and he does not need to dress every historical fragment
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: up as some grand, hidden conspiracy. He brings scholarship into
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: the strange places and lets the evidence speak, And that
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: is exactly why we wanted him here. But before we
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: introduce the guest, let me introduce the rest of the rejects. Judith,
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: what is going on? Thank you so much. I'm so
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: happy you made it tonight.
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: For having me. I'm happy this sounds like an interesting conversation.
• 2:53
  Speaker 4: And everyone you can find me at the weekly brunch
• 2:55
  Speaker 4: as Saloon on YouTube, Spreaker and x listen.
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much. And we got my man, Jen.
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: What is going on? Jen? How we are you? Thank
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: you so much for making it tonight.
• 3:06
  Speaker 5: Thank you boss, mister ninety three shut that out. Of course,
• 3:10
  Speaker 5: I'm really excited to be here because this is kind
• 3:13
  Speaker 5: of a big deal. So thank you so much to
• 3:16
  Speaker 5: Justin Sledge for you know, and Nick obviously for inviting
• 3:18
  Speaker 5: me and everyone on the panel. If you want to
• 3:20
  Speaker 5: check me out, you can at Threshold Saints. That's everywhere substack, YouTube, Spotify, Apple, everything,
• 3:28
  Speaker 5: so you can just look at Threshold Saints. I just
• 3:30
  Speaker 5: dropped an episode with the American writer, novelist and poet
• 3:33
  Speaker 5: Brad Kelly and for his new book Earth and Dark,
• 3:36
  Speaker 5: which is about the tunnels of set. So hopefully I'm
• 3:39
  Speaker 5: really excited to speak with I'm gonna call him doctor Sledge.
• 3:43
  Speaker 5: I know he said that we didn't have to, but
• 3:45
  Speaker 5: it's kind of cool, right, But anyways, so yeah, so
• 3:49
  Speaker 5: I'm also, like i'd say, a student of the Kabbala,
• 3:51
  Speaker 5: and I loved your episode on the Kabola of Contemplation
• 3:56
  Speaker 5: and like ramics, fondness for the number thirteen. Fascinated by
• 4:00
  Speaker 5: that of course from tom or Devra. So yeah, I'm
• 4:03
  Speaker 5: a little nervous, but thank you guys, appreciate it, and
• 4:05
  Speaker 5: I think this would be really awesome.
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: Hell yeah, thank you very much for making it. Jan
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: I appreciate you, and we've got Kiva Rose with us.
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: What is going on, Kaiva? How were you?
• 4:13
  Speaker 4: Hello?
• 4:13
  Speaker 6: It's wonderful to be here. It's nice to meet you justin.
• 4:16
  Speaker 6: I've watched your videos as well, and so I appreciate
• 4:18
  Speaker 6: you being here. You can find me at Kaiva Rose
• 4:21
  Speaker 6: on Instagram, Facebook and YouTube. I post daily and weekly
• 4:24
  Speaker 6: astrology videos and you can also find me at eleven
• 4:27
  Speaker 6: kibro Rose thirty three dot com if you're looking to
• 4:29
  Speaker 6: book a session.
• 4:30
  Speaker 4: So thank you all. I look forward to chatting with you.
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: Thank you appreciate it. And we got zero Lath what
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: is going on? Sir?
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  Speaker 3: Hey, guys, how's it going? It is zero Ath eternal
• 4:40
  Speaker 3: channel of the same name.
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  Speaker 1: My channel.
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  Speaker 3: I am a pagan, a bit of a mystic in
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: a magus. I study the esoteric, the occult, analysis of
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: conspiracies and exploring what it is to heighten oneself in
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: consciousness and also to help shape the world into something
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  Speaker 3: that's better for everyone.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you very much, sir. I appreciate you making it.
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: And my man Athan Indigo, how are you.
• 5:14
  Speaker 7: Well? Peace everybody. I'm a big fan of Justin's as
• 5:17
  Speaker 7: I am of everyone of the rejects here, so appreciate everybody.
• 5:22
  Speaker 7: Ethan Indigo Smith on all the usual social media I
• 5:26
  Speaker 7: should be easy to find and Geometry of Energy is
• 5:30
  Speaker 7: a website of mine, and again appreciate everybody.
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: I appreciate you, sir. And lastly, Erros and we got
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: all three of the rejected women here tonight. That is amazing.
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: Thank you for making that happen. Ladies, got all of
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: you here. Erros, please let everybody know what's up with you.
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  Speaker 8: Yeah, the big show tonight, Thanks for coming, Justin. I'm
• 5:50
  Speaker 8: excited for this one. I have a YouTube channel, arrows Up.
• 5:55
  Speaker 8: I post a lot of meta discussions around like the
• 5:59
  Speaker 8: Western tradition and young and uh you know a lot
• 6:06
  Speaker 8: of like Hellenism, I'm a hellenistic astrologer stuff like that.
• 6:11
  Speaker 8: Thanks for having me.
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: Of course, of course I don't forget about your platonism
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: and all the any ads you've covered too as well,
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: so if you're into that stuff, go check out at work.
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: Please thank you all very much for making it tonight,
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: and finally, only six minutes in, Justin, let everybody know
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: what's up with you and where If they don't know
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: who you are by now, please let them know where
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: they can find all your amazing work.
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: Everybody, Thank you for having me on Uh yeah, my
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: name is Justin. I'm an academic. I study Western as
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: a terrorism in a pretty pretty broad way, and these
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: days I'm kind of knee deep in the world of
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: Middle Platonism, which is a world, a weird world to
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: be knee deep in. But yeah, you can find me
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: basically on YouTube. I don't really have social media because
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: it terrifies me an or the deal with demons and
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: deal with social media, so so basically just there, aside
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: from my antiquarian book business, which we have an Instagram
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: for that, but basically I'm just on YouTube at as
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: a Erica. So I'm really glad to be here and
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: really looking forward to the conversation, and yeah, it's always
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: great to be in a great diverse crowd. I mean,
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: it's really great to see so such diverse folks interested
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: in as a terrorism in the occult, and it makes
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: me really happy because so much, so often it's just
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: people who look a lot like me in academic circles,
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: and so I'm really happy to see like real diversity.
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: So it's really cool. That's to me, that's just like
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  Speaker 1: the most one of the most important things about these
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: conversations is getting as many different voices as we can
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  Speaker 1: in the room, Scholars, practitioners, people from different traditions. I
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: think that's just to me, that's really exciting.
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: Totally agree, and thank you very much for the compliment.
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: That really means a lot. So I guess kind of like, well,
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: just first off, you'll let people know, as far as
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: I know, you're not a practitioner, you're just an academic.
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: Just an academic civilian.
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: Yes, I've never heard it that way, So just for
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: the listeners then, I guess wouldn't be like, you know,
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: when did you decide to start casting circles? What was
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: it that got you into I guess even going down
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: this lane of studies.
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: I guess say as a kid, I grew up like
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: watching a lot of like horror movies that often have
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: like you know, economicons and books like that. And then me,
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: you know, so I grew up on a lot of
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. But also I grew up on
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: like my parents would dropped me off at the library
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: and I would see my time in the zero zero zeros
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: where all the books on ghosts and and uh astrology
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: and magic and stuff whre. And I grew up in
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: the American South, which is a pretty haunted area, right
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: just in terms of it's an area really rich and
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: you know, everything from root work and who Doo to?
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: You know, everything's haunted and the Civil War happens. So
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: it's just sort of in the air in the American
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  Speaker 1: South and maybe a way that it's maybe not as
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: a stick of other places. And yeah, I grew up
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: in shows like Unsolved Mysteries and In Search of and
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: these kind of shows. And I think that when you
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: grew up on that kind of stuff, there's other kind
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: of two ways you can go about it. Alther you
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: kind of go whole hog into that material and you're like, yeah,
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: the lockness monster is real and Atlantis made lasers, and
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: you kind of go full till conspiracy, or you become
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: skeptical and you're like, this is not anything, This is
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: just all Bigfoot's not real Lognessmonster's not real. When it's
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: not real, it's not a nice real why should I
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: waste my time studying it. So you become sort of
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: a very reddit skeptic kind of person. And I kind
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: of did both right. I maintained my interest in the
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: material and also became critical. And by critical, I don't
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: mean this stuff should be rejected obviously, it means that
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: we need to take a critical eye in evidence based,
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: a data driven way of approaching it. And so after
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: I finished undergrad it just, especially with the John D stuff,
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: that stuff really grabbed onto me in high school and
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: never let go. And I basically wrote too Honograph, who
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: was the chair of the department at Amsterdam, where this
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: is one of the only degree granting institutions in the
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: world where you can study this stuff, and I was like, look,
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: I just wanted to go there and spend my entire
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: time working on Inoke and John D. Stuff. I just
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: want to like figure out what in the world was
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: at and I did that, and I never looked. I've
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: been working on as a terrorism in some capacity for
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: I mean, I mean really since I was a teenager.
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: So I guess that's kind of the origin story. I
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: guess the near origin story is that I couldn't get
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: a job. Academia is a nightmare, as I'm sure everyone knows,
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: and when you're an academic in this material, they're basically thinking,
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: like you're just like, you want to work on Hogwarts?
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: Is that what you want to do? And you know,
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: jobs are not forthcoming. And my brother was like, look, man,
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: you need to like just open up your shop on
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: YouTube and do your thing and if it works, it works,
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: and it doesn't it doesn't, and you know, lucky enough,
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: it's been pretty successful, and people really again at a
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: wide range of people, you know, practitioners, academics, people just
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: interested in like world building for their D and D campaign,
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: a lot of novelists, artists, you know, they're all there's
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: a lot of folks interested in this material for a
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: lot of different reasons. And so it's really been an
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: honor for me to serve those communities and learn to
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: serve them, learn from them how best to serve them.
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: And that's been a really great journey as an educator,
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: because you know, as an educator, you want to reach
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: as many people as possible, and that means learning learning
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: how to reach people because I don't speak the language
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: of practitioners, and so when I'm sitting down with Aaron
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: Leach and we're talking about nok and magic, i can
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: talk about an Oke and stuff all day long, but
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: I'm not talking about it from the point of view
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: of someone who's trying to, you know, describe the ethers.
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: So it's been really, really helpful for me to be
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: able to sit across the table from practitioners and learn
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: from them how best I can approach the material in
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: a way that's the most helpful for them. So it's
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: been a really a really wonderful experience and a really
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: great opportunity for me to expand my own, you know,
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: pedagological horizons.
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: That's great, No, I love it. I love it. You
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: have friends with Aaron.
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We were just at the Nokian
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: Con last year.
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: He's got some impressive work. I remember him from.
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: That, Yeah, And anytime I write anything on it. We're
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: working on working on an episode on Anokan even though
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: I feel like I have a pretty strong command of
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: that stuff, I alway run it past him because I again,
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: I want to get a practitioner's eyes on the material,
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: just because I feel like that's that's a voice that
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: needs to be at the table and if it's not
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: gonna be my voice, and at least it's going to
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: be brought in at some level by vetting the script
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: and things like that.
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's great, that's great. One question I just wanted
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: to ask real quick, just interested with the John d stuff.
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: Was there anything in specific that grabbed you with him?
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: I mean, I'm assuming he was at the Inchian work
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: that that pulled you in.
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was the language. You know. When I was
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: in high school, I was I was learning Latin, and
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: I grew up in a pretty Christian environment where you
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: know people that we knew, you know, once the churches
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: were people spoke in tongues, so I'd heard people speaking
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: in tongues. And when you hear people speaking in tongues,
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: Glossalalia has very specific linguistic features. And when I was
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: looking at an Okian, really it shouldn't we should stop
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: calling it because the text never call it that they
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: called the celestial speech or the or the adamical language.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: The text never calls it in Okium, but any rate,
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: what I started noticing was there were grammatical structures and
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: syntax to the Inkian Inochian language, and that struck me
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: as interesting because there's like no faking that you can't
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: glossal Lalia, that you can't you know, you can't glossal
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: Lalia declensions and conjugations. And so having learning Latin at
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: the time, that grabbed me because I was like, this
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: is not random and it's not glossal Lalia. Something else
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: has happened and I just cried out for for investigation
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: and you know, that's just what you did profoundly weird.
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: So uh so it was a language stuff that really
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: that really grabbed me. And yeah, it's like I said,
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: I spent apart years working in Amsterdam on on all
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: on lots of d stuff from the Morning Psyglyphica from
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: fifteen sixty four all the way through to you know
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: to you know, to win De quit talking to angels
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: because he happened to die. I guess he could probably
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: continued to talk to them after he's dead as well,
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: but at least when he was alive. But but yeah,
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: the sessions about the Lamy Hickman and stuff like that.
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, rous did you have a question?
• 14:00
  Speaker 8: Yeah, I was wondering, have you ever had a magical experience?
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: Say more about what you mean by that.
• 14:12
  Speaker 8: I guess it's hard to say. People have all sorts
• 14:15
  Speaker 8: of magical experiences, Like maybe they see like in orb
• 14:20
  Speaker 8: or a god comes to them, or you have like
• 14:23
  Speaker 8: a dream that feels like another entity is in it,
• 14:27
  Speaker 8: or I don't know, even synchronicity could be seen as
• 14:34
  Speaker 8: a magical experience. But I guess just something that felt
• 14:41
  Speaker 8: just kind of magical and larger than maybe normal causality.
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: Maybe like a paranormal experience.
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: So I'll speak out of both sides of my mouth,
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: which is, you know, the safest thing to do. On
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: the one hand, no, not really. I don't think I've
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: ever seen a ghost, except for maybe when I was
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: a kid, I saw something really strange and maybe that
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: was a ghost. But also I don't trust myself, and
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: I've told myself this story enough times that I'm not
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: sure how much of the memory is actually real, how
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: much of it's me reconstructing the memory. And on the
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: other side, I was just at Burleskin house in Scotland
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: for the grand opening of Bilescing House. And this is
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: folks know, this is Alice for Crowley's old house and
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: Jimmy Page's old house where he began the Abermelon ritual,
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: and there's all kinds of lure attached to this house.
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: But sadly, my dog got really sick when I was
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: in Scotland and it became clear we're going to put
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: the dog down. And sure enough, the night after the
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: grand opening, I'm sitting in the oratory where Crowley did
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: the Abramelon and just looking down at Lochness and my
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: dog is like being put down. I'm having to watch
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: this over WhatsApp. It was genuinely heartbreaking. And as soon
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: as they started the process of euthanizing her, the power
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: went out at Bulescin House, and the power didn't go
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: out at the Gatehouse, and the power did not go
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: out at the houses across the loch. And as soon
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: as the vett said that she was gone, the lights
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: came back on. And so you know, what do I
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: make of that? You know, do I don't know what
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: to make of it? You know, I'm happy to sit
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: in the and I'm happy to sit in the not knowing. Uh,
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: you know, does a weird magical house in Scotland has
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: any connection to my poor dog dying in Detroit or
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: you know, me feeling an enormous amount of heartbreak and anguish,
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: you know, not being able to be there for my
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: wife and kids when this is going on. So it
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: does that qualify su supernatural? I think if I were
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: a slightly different temperament, it might, right, Sometimes I describe
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: myself as supernaturally tone deaf in the same way that
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: imagine a person born blind where to stump their feet
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: and tell you there's no such thing as colors because
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: they've never experienced them. We would find that a bit strange,
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: right that, Like, yeah, you have a disability and it
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: prohibits you to see colors light. Sometimes I don't want
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: to be that guy stomping feet and saying there's no
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: such thing as supernatural stuff because I've never experienced them.
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: I just might be the equivalent of having a disability.
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: But trust me, I've been on lots of I get
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: invited to every ghost hunt thing around here, and people
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: are you know, desperate for me to be the person
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: who's like it was on my ghost hunt the sledge saw,
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: you know, an orb or whatever. But then I go
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: there and I'm like, yeah, don't you feel the temperature
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: it's colder in here. I'm like, yeah, the window's broken.
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: I'm always that guy, and I don't want to be
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: that guy, Like I really, honest to God, I don't
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: like that. But no, I don't think I've ever had
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: an experience that gave me pause in my in my worldview,
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: which I'm a very boring materialist, I have the I
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: have the the metaphysics of a eighty seven year old
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: Soviet pensionist. Like that's basically my metaphysics.
• 17:53
  Speaker 8: So yeah, I was wondering if you could talk more
• 17:55
  Speaker 8: on that. Actually, I think you had described it once
• 17:59
  Speaker 8: as yeah, materialism dialectic according to Marxist structure or something
• 18:09
  Speaker 8: like that.
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just like old, very old fashioned dialectical materialism,
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: which is to say that that history is the result
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: of classes interacting, not the result of God's working themselves
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: out or whatever. But yeah, basically, you know, I've never
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: seen anything or experienced anything that can be that couldn't
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: be expanded by explained by the standard model, which is
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: to say, you know, twenty five some odd particles and
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: four forces. But I'm also very open to the possibility
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: and even the likelihood that I'm wrong. I think that's
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: I think that's another important caveat is that, like I said,
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: if I had to put on the if someone gave
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: me ten grand and said, you have to bet this
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: ten grand on a roulette game, and the roulette game
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: is are you is your material is your materialist outlook
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: on reality right or wrong? I would bet on it
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: being wrong. Yeah, Like, does does that make sense?
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: Like I'm I'm I'm I'm more willing to believe that
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: I'm wrong, but I can't convince myself in another direction.
• 19:10
  Speaker 5: I have a I have a quick follow up for that.
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: Sorry, guys.
• 19:13
  Speaker 5: I just wanted to know justin how you reconcile faith
• 19:17
  Speaker 5: and sort of religious practice with these ideas that Eros
• 19:21
  Speaker 5: is talking about, like and when you're approaching this very
• 19:23
  Speaker 5: metaphysical material.
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: My faith, as much as it is one, is very
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: much wrapped up in Judaism is a religion about doing things.
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: It's about practicing things. It's about like keeping kosher, it's
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: about studying. You know, I'm not you know sometimes to
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: people say like when you when you pray, which I
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: do pray. They're like, who are you praying to? And
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't care. This question is the least
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: interesting question. It's it's it's to me, it's a it's
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: a it's a question that has never it has never
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: prompted any curiosity on my part. So and it's funny
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: because people say, well, how can you maintain your face?
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: I'm like, that's what faith is, right, It's I'm not
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: trying to prove anything. I'm like sitting in the place
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: of the discomfort and trusting the tradition, and the tradition
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: is more important than what I believe and don't believe.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: Sometimes people are like, well, how can you be Jewish?
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: And I'm like, I'm like, well, because my tradition matters
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: to me more than my own personal opinions.
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: Do I have a question? Yeah? I read on my
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: channel an old English translation. It's like one of the
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: first English translations of the track dates of the Talmud. Right,
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: it doesn't get off into the sidebooks or anything like that. Now,
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: have you just studied the Talmud or is any part
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: of the Talmud a part of the tradition that you follow?
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: Because I know that there's a widespread like some people
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: care nothing for it at all, and some people are
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: all about it.
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: I mean, you mean the talmut of the Zohar.
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: Well, I didn't read the Zohar yet, so I'm speaking
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: on the Talmud.
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, the Talmud. Yeah, there's no rabbinical judaism of
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: the talmut. The Toalmin's just part and parcel. I mean
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: the Talmut every day, so yeah, it's it's uh, you know,
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: but again, the Talmud is a record of a conversation, right,
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: It's a conversation between lots of rabbis over several hundred years.
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: So some of the people say things like, well the
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: Talmud says and I'm like, yeah, like you get enough
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: people in the room, there's always that one like psycho,
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: you know. And what I like about the talmat does
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: they record the opinions of that one psycho? Yeah, you
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: know he's like your uncle who just like writes an
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: all caps on Facebook. Yeah, like we all have that uncle, right, Uh, Well,
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: that uncle's voice is in the Talmud because he was there,
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: and so some and sometimes people quote him out of
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: context of representing the entirety of the of the text.
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so you're neither Hellel nor Shamai. You you're just
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: a fan of your ancestors.
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: Well, I would say that the you know, the Gamara says,
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: the Talma says that, uh, that this world, the we
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: tend toward the liberal because this world's hard, and so
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: we will we will follow the rulings of Hillel in
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: this lifetime, but in the world to come, Uh, it'll
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: be easier to be righteous, and therefore we will follow
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: the attack directates of of SHAMAI. But famously, uh, you know,
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: folks know this debate was this debate where Hillo and
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: shama were shouting each other on the roof of a
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: building and God breaks through the sky and says, Alulu
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: these and those both. Uh, you know, this is a makshmime.
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: This is a disagreement for the sake of heaven. And
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: so part of what I love about Judaism is it's
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: able to hold the idea that well, within one religion
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: and even within one person, you're going to have deeply
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: contradictory views. And the important thing is to sit in
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: the discomfort of that contradiction and and and strive toward righteousness.
• 22:48
  Speaker 6: Yeah, and Also it sounds like justin you are kind
• 22:51
  Speaker 6: of on the alignment with like the melancholic humor, right
• 22:53
  Speaker 6: like melancholy.
• 22:55
  Speaker 4: I mean that's kind of you know, not saying like
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: your melancholy.
• 22:57
  Speaker 6: But I always think I am because I think that
• 22:58
  Speaker 6: is a sign of intelligence off in times. It's like
• 23:00
  Speaker 6: written in Agrippa, and I think even like Pia Trick. Yeah,
• 23:04
  Speaker 6: I was just gonna say, like do you have are
• 23:06
  Speaker 6: you like a you know, Saturnian rising sign, like are
• 23:09
  Speaker 6: you a Capricorn or do you just have a strong
• 23:11
  Speaker 6: saturn in your chart?
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: I have no idea. I've never seen my so never
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: seen my birth chart, for one, And it's not really
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: clear when I was born. So I have I have
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: two birth certificates, and one of them says I was
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: born in February ninth, the one says I was born
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: in February tenth, and it's not clear which one is right.
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: They both have the same time on the time, the same.
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: Really funny is the Talmud like one of the things
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: that's repeated once or twice in the talm Moude. Even
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: though they're all like don't do magic, don't do rituals,
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: but go brag to everybody about how good of an
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: astrology and I double checked astronomy or they said australog.
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: The right, and the word it's a The word in
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: Aramic is is togging to you, and it's doging to you.
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: It is the same. It's just one word for both
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: in aramic.
• 24:00
  Speaker 6: Exactly because they never used to be separate sciences.
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: It's used to be considered like, yeah, exactly one.
• 24:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I never used.
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: The English translation. I'm not looking at the Aramaic notes,
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: so I'm going off of what the English mind that
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: doesn't know Hebrew or Yiddish is meant to know.
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: You know, in astrology is a very complicated thing in
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: Judaism as well. I mean there's a there's a there's
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: a condemnation of it that says like, don't consult with
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: the Kaldeans, which is almost always a don't consult with
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: the astrologers. But then some of the most famous Jews
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: of all time have been big deal astrologers. So again
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: this is and the thing would go was with magic
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: and the conversation we're having earlier, the magic is for forbidden.
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: Kishuf is forbidden. Right, we had to get technical here.
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: Kise schuff is forbidden, but then you're allowed to go
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: and make golans. Golms are completely allowed. I have a
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: book of comeot of of Talismans and Uh sitting right here,
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: written by very pious Babailistic rabbi in eighteenth century Yeman.
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: So and again, the it all depends on how you
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: define these things, about what is allowed and what isn't allowed.
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: This is true Christianity's true of a Slam's true. It's
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: true of anyone. It's just what what what slips under
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: the what slips under the door is all about how
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: you define what is sorcery.
• 25:21
  Speaker 8: I guess how much of a heretic you are, right, yeah?
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: Or it's it's so it's interesting because Judaism doesn't put
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: a lot of emphasis on what you believe. It's not
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: about so much believe. It's like what the kind of
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: things are you allowed to do? What kind of things
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: are you disallowed to do? And so you know, in fact,
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: the word for heretic and Hebrews is is a mean
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: and harris the word for herisyon and Hebrews mineu it
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: it means to split. So it has more to do
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: with like how you relate to the community than it
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: does what you believe. And so if it's you know,
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: and this is very different Christianity. Right, the word horaos
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: in Greek where we get heresy from uh it means choice.
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: You're choosing to belie leave the wrong thing. And so
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: you can see that the flavors of what is constitutive
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: of heresy are are very different in these different uh
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: so called Abrahamic religions. This is a you know, this
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: is a term that I find to be the religions
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: are so very different from each other under the hood.
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: But but yeah, it's I can go to an Orthodox
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: synagogue and say, yeah, I don't believe in God and
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: they're like, keep kosher, and I'm like, yeah, that's all
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: that matters. God will sort himself out or whatever, like
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: it ton'tally matter what you believe, Like, you know, you
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: do the thing right, You're doing the thing right. They're like, yeah,
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: doing the thing, Like, yeah, the rest is sort itself out.
• 26:39
  Speaker 6: Speaking of Count Dan, So, I was just reading in
• 26:42
  Speaker 6: the Pika Trix, So do you know anything about the
• 26:45
  Speaker 6: City of Statues, the House of Statues that Roumi's created
• 26:48
  Speaker 6: that everybody was peer of sin? Do you know anything
• 26:51
  Speaker 6: about like the statues and potentially like is that connected
• 26:54
  Speaker 6: to the Innochian language and why.
• 26:56
  Speaker 4: The statues were able to have the power upon the people?
• 26:59
  Speaker 6: Do you know?
• 26:59
  Speaker 4: Do you know what I'm talking about?
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: I think they're referring and again I don't have the
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: picta tricks a huge book, but I think they're referring
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: to Haran. Haran is the big hermetic city in the
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: ancient world that I mean.
• 27:12
  Speaker 6: And adosin at Atto Sentin. Out of Sentin, it's the
• 27:18
  Speaker 6: one with the tower in the middle and the orb
• 27:19
  Speaker 6: on the top and the orb changes colors every day.
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, referring to it's a myth. It's a mythical, mythologicalized
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: version of Haran, which was the city that Thai mccura
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: came from. He wrote the most important book on Talismans.
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: But but yeah, it was it was a functioning pagan city.
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: There's a great book called the leg Last Pagans of
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: Iraq that covers what we little we know about them.
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: But they were wiped up by the Mongol sadly, but
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: we don't know much about them. There's one book about
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: them called the Abutine Agriculture by I God Him even
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: Washia and that's it. That's all we know what little
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: we can grab from, you know, from Babadi Bankura. But
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: what's interesting about them is that the the Islamic caliphates
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: never attacked them and forced them to convert. They were
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: they were protected religious class as a amokaa people of
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: the book, and their book were these Hermitic writings. So
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: it's interesting that that the Abbosites protected them. In fact,
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: Baghdad when it was built, it was it was built
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: on the astrological timings of a Jewish astrologer, so back
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: the foundation stone and Baghdad was set on on astrological timings,
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: which shows you Muslims totally okay with at least those
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: Muslims were totally okay with astrology, not okay with it.
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: They literally played around it.
• 28:41
  Speaker 6: Yeah, because it wasn't it Abu Mashar or yeah, I
• 28:43
  Speaker 6: think it was Abu Mashah right or who was which
• 28:46
  Speaker 6: which astrologer?
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: I think it is either Abshar or what's.
• 28:52
  Speaker 4: The other his teacher but not be Nadi, But it's
• 28:54
  Speaker 4: his teacher.
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: I know, b but I can't remember his name.
• 28:59
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Bisher, maybe it's Bisher.
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: So yeah, if that's like means commander in like in
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: in like the Syrian language is speaking Syria or or
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: Assyria as I understand.
• 29:14
  Speaker 4: It, amasha allah, maybe that's.
• 29:17
  Speaker 8: Who it is.
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's it. Yeah, who did it? But yeah,
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: Josh astrologer basically you know, uh yeah, set the astrological
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: timing for the foundation of.
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 29:29
  Speaker 7: I wanted to ask justin if, being with your kind
• 29:32
  Speaker 7: of critical perception of John d and his indemnical language,
• 29:38
  Speaker 7: is that what you said he referred to.
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: Us a dominical the domical Yeah, dominical or the celestial
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: speech is the other way that it gets referred to,
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: thank you speech?
• 29:49
  Speaker 6: That is much.
• 29:50
  Speaker 7: That is beautiful. I wonder if you've made any conclusions
• 29:55
  Speaker 7: around it, being being critical of it and having explored
• 29:57
  Speaker 7: its grammar, if you will.
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: In conclusions into where where I think it came from?
• 30:03
  Speaker 7: Well, if there, if you know the validity behind it
• 30:07
  Speaker 7: and so forth and so on, you.
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: Know, I mean, I can I can say that there's
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: nothing about it that's exceptional aside from the fact that
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: it's revealed in a series of conjurations. Grammatically and syntactically,
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: it's identical to English. So for instance, there's there's no
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: there are no uh, there are no sounds in an
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: no key in their unusual there's no voice for angle fricatives.
• 30:33
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: Aside from the fact that it's written right to left
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: like Hebrew, it's syntactically and grammatically identical to English with
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: some Latin flair I guess done in there. So it's
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: not interesting so much as a language. I think it
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: is interesting about it is the mode of transmission, because
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: it was transmitted letter by letter backwards in reverse order,
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: at least at first, And so that's weird. And so
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: the question is how if Kelly, if Kelly faked that,
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: there's a real question of how he was able to
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: pull that up off. And the the short answer is,
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I just don't know. If there are angels,
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: I can't imagine why they would speak that, you know,
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: there's not it's something terrible like why would they speak
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: words that have clear etymologies from Greek, Latin and Hebrew words.
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: It seems like their language would be prior to those languages, right.
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: And on the other hand, do I have a good
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: story to tell about how Kelly was able to do
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: this with the observing high I don't have a great story.
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: No one knows what went on in that room aside
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: from Dan Kelly and the Angels, I guess. So again
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: it's the question of like, I sit in the uncertainty
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: and my job is to take the evidence as far
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: as it will go. And then once the evidence runs out,
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: I'm like, I have no idea what happened past past
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: past that here be dragons, But I knew that. Again,
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: this is how in the weeds I got all this stuff.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: I mean, I was like, you know, doing like hardcore
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: linguistic canals because I can. I think, you know, if
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: if there's a pattern in the in the liber Logo texts,
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: which are much more extensive, those are much bigger data sets,
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: if there was something in there and we could find it,
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: that would be I mean two the two possibilities. One
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: it could be there could be some kind of supernatural cause.
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: Or secondly, we could be looking at cryptography. And we
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: know that John d was knee deep in that world.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: He was a spy for Queen Elizabeth, and he was
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: involved in cryptography, and so be interesting and unsurprising if
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: we were to find signatures in there in there that
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: indicated what was happening was was cryptographic and we shouldn't
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: forget right what is the last phase of the Anokian magic.
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: It's not scrying the ethers, it's not the liber logo.
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: The last phase is the parts of the Earth phase.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: And what is that it's remote viewing to spy on countries.
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: That's the whole point of the whole last phase of
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: the Nulken magic that no one seems to really care about.
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: But I mean, like, but that if you read the givet,
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: if you read the journals, the Washtower system and the
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: parts of the Earth system are designed to allow d
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: basically to spy on the rest of the world as
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: part of this sort of apocalyptic empire building businesses up
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: to and unsurprisingly what is the famous for coining he
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: coins the term British empire. So it's just like angelic
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: Cia stuff.
• 33:10
  Speaker 6: At the end, how do you think they were sending
• 33:12
  Speaker 6: messages through the moon? Because I know, like full moons
• 33:15
  Speaker 6: were used to send messages. Do you know anything about
• 33:18
  Speaker 6: like to use that technique? And maybe that's why I
• 33:20
  Speaker 6: was written backwards? Maybe they had to anything about that
• 33:23
  Speaker 6: at all.
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: Well, So it's interesting because the parts of the Earth
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: system don't seem to require don't seem to have any
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: a connection to the Okian stuff, like the language stuff.
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: The language stuf seems specifically to unlock. So there are
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: these Inochian calls, the last of which is it's meant
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: to unlock this book called the liber Loga, and that
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: either portends the apocalypse or causes the apocalypse. There's debate
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: among the cultists about what it'sposed to exactly what it happens.
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: But then they, I mean, Dean Kelly are such wild
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: and crazy guys. I mean, the angels are telling them
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: that the world's about to end and they're about to
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: be introl in this, and they're like, Okay, can we
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: go find buried treasure? So they're just like completely useless, uh,
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: and any rate, the angels just like moving on, and
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: they just moved to this whole other system, which is
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: the parts of our system, so that one doesn't have anything.
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: There's no linguistic communication. It's all remote viewing or what
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: we would now call remote viewing.
• 34:22
  Speaker 4: But it's a black yeah.
• 34:26
  Speaker 7: Mirror.
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: Sorry, And also the black mirror is a bit of
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: a myth too. There's no evidence that d Ever had it. Yeah.
• 34:35
  Speaker 5: The the the.
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: That's an it's an eighteenth century mirror that's basically attributed
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: to D by a later person. We know that D
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: never talked about using a black mirror. In fact, we
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: know the exact the the We know the crystals that
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: he used because they survived and he describes them. He
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: actually draws pictures of them in the in the diaries.
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: So the famous black mirror is it's almost certainly not
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: actually owned by D himself. That he's crystal balls, although
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: one of the crystal balls was magically uh what's materialized
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: by an angel? So that's interesting, m M.
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: That is that this alleged materialized crystal ball, this is
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: one of the saved ones. It's in a it's in
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: a museum somewhere.
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: It's in the British museum. Yeah, you can go see it.
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: We don't know which one is which. We don't know
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: which one is which, but yeah, they're both. They're both there.
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: Okay, let me consult Google. I need to see this thing.
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: They're little too, And we think of crystal balls is
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: like being kind of this big or whatever, but they're
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: actually really small little balls or just about like you know,
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: the size of a tangerine or something. And but yeah,
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: I mean this this is how D or Kelly, you know,
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: did the scrine. D did try to do it, and
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: he also tried to force his child to do it
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: when Kelly quit one of the many times that Kelly quit,
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: and he stormed off and in a puff, and and
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: he's like, Arthur, you know, or d you do it?
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: And then author is like, I don't see anything, just
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: like weird squiggles and stuff. So, which is really not
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: a cool thing to do with. If you're a dad,
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: just too volunteer your child to go talk to angels.
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: I just don't do that.
• 36:15
  Speaker 8: I'm wondering, going from like John D to Middle Platonism,
• 36:21
  Speaker 8: do you see a big difference in how like angels
• 36:25
  Speaker 8: are thought of or utilized between the two.
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: You know, there's not much angels in Middle Platonism. It's
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: just demone's right, So you're just living in a world
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: of demons in which they are good demon ase and
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: bad demonice and neutral d'emones. It's only with the advent
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: of Christianity that we really get the adoption of these
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: malachim from Hebrew, these these angelic beings. And uh yeah,
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: by the time you get to you know, John D's time,
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: angels are uh there's not only are there is there one,
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: half a dozen theories about what they are and how
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: they operate, and how many there are. You know, you
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: read authorities like Milannites, he will tell you they're exactly
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: nine of them. And you read other authorities that will
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: tell you there are millions and million, infinite number of them.
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: And so by the time of D's time, the conception
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: of spiritual creatures is what he would have referred to,
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: the mass has enormously changed. It's also worth noting that
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: the angels, I mean, it's really difficult to call them angels,
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: but the entities that g was describing don't match at
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: all what we typically think of as angels. Like I
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: would just give one example. One of the more important
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: of these angels is a spiritual creature named Madimi. And
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: Madimi starts off as I think a nine year old
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: girl or a seven year old girl, and by the
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: time the sessions in seven years later, she's grown into
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: being a sort of late blooming teenager, and she's grown,
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: she's sexually matured, and she's like flirting with them, and
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: stuff gets really weird. And angels don't get older, they
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: don't grow, they don't they're not gendered, right, and so
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: you know, the many people ask like, what in the
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: world are they what, what are they talking to? What
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: kind of entities are they in contact with? And of
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: course they talk to regular Norman angels too, you know,
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: Michael and Uriel and you know, Cameo and those normal angels.
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: But then they talk to these other weird angels that
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: I mean one of them ultimately tempts them or tells
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: them to swap their wives, and like that seems like
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: a weird thing for an angel to want you to do.
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: And yeah, people have said, you know, it sounds a
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: lot more like demons to me, and I'm like, yeah,
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: it sounds like you know, if again, if I had
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: to roll the dice, which I could, thank god I
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: don't have to, you know, if I were like talking
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: to an angel and she starts flirting with me, and
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: I'm like, hold on, are you what are you? Sixteen?
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: This is I'm getting I'm hanging the phone up. This
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: is done with this, this is creepy. And the fbis
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: I kicked my door in. I'm done with this.
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: So I have a I have a I have a
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: theory about what that is with the girl growing up.
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: Perhaps you know, I'm a bit of a youngin psychologist myself. Right, So, uh,
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: the anima, right, it could be an egger gore of
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: the anima. And so with each session it's feeding maturity
• 39:11
  Speaker 3: into the gore as it grows into this right, and
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: it's servicing the shadow as meant to.
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, D you thought enough of this entitude
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: to name his daughter after one of his daughters, after
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: her Adimi. She died in the Great Plague after the
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: angels promised that she would grow to old age. That
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: didn't happen either, right, Yeah.
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: Maybe maybe it's a low key moonschild visual no idea.
• 39:41
  Speaker 5: Well, d did call her the daughter of fortitude, right.
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: So it's interesting. So that's the debate too, is whether
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: or not that whether or not so Medemi disappears, right,
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: this is the I think late May of fifteen eighty
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: seven or so Medeemi goes off and then what returns
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: is this this entity called the daughter that refers to
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: herself as the daughter of forty tie dude. And there's
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: again there's a question about is Mademi the daughter of
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: fortitude or is the daughter of fortitude some other kind
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: of entity? But yeah, I am the daughter of fortitude.
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: Ravished in every hour and this if you read that text,
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: and if you know you're Nakamadi Library, they're real weird
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: vibes between that and the thunder Perfect Mind, the speech
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: of the Daughter of Fortitude and the speech of thunder
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: Perfect Mind.
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: Yessursive, Yeah, that's it's great.
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: It's alarming. I mean again, it's the kind of thing
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: that you know again people, you know, folks interesting Jungi
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: and stuff are like, you know, they're asking like, how
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: do you look at those two things and not see
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: they're connected? Like, I don't know, man, Like it's I
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: admit to you, there's something. There's some thing going on
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: here that is interesting. Uh. And of course you know
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: the the Thelemites are link the Daughter of Fortitude to Babylon,
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: and it's sort of Babylon vibes out of the Daughter
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: of Fortitude. So and that's one of the last sessions.
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: The Daughter of Fortitude session is I think the next
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: to last session at least with Kelly, and again we
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: forget that. D goes back to England and continues to
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: scry with a new Stuyer named Barth l U Hickman
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: for like fifteen years or something, and then Deed destroys
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: all those records, so we we it's a survivalship bias.
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: We put a lot of emphasis on the d Kelly
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: stuff because that's what survives. But we would have twice
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: the information, twice the data if the sessions with Bartholvu
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: Hickman would have survived. They just didn't or de destroyed them.
• 41:31
  Speaker 5: Justin are you familiar with the sort of heterodox it's
• 41:36
  Speaker 5: she's Jewish, but like part of the Jewish wisdom literature,
• 41:39
  Speaker 5: but she's also probably part of like the more probably
• 41:43
  Speaker 5: more mythologized in the contemporary left hand path, like clopothics,
• 41:46
  Speaker 5: sort of stuff that you don't really talk about. But
• 41:48
  Speaker 5: there's the ices Zeno nymes. Some people have sort of
• 41:51
  Speaker 5: compared this Princess of the Klipas to the Daughter of
• 41:54
  Speaker 5: Fortitude as well as there is an idea and the
• 41:58
  Speaker 5: sort of not the non common library but the broader
• 42:01
  Speaker 5: gnostic wisdom literature as well of the Epinoi of Nuria
• 42:05
  Speaker 5: and sort of this daughter also a daughter figure. So
• 42:08
  Speaker 5: I find that very interesting and parallel.
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, I've been to be very careful
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: I phrased this, but there's no traditional connection between most
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: of what I read about the Klipote and contemporary occult
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: spaces to the actual, to the historical Jewish texts.
• 42:30
  Speaker 8: So the.
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, try to put diplomatically.
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: I agree with that for the record.
• 42:37
  Speaker 5: I'm more of a Postlarianic person myself, but I definitely
• 42:41
  Speaker 5: draw off from the Ramac as well.
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and so for me, I mean, the Ramac is
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: my is my guy, as much as I have a
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: horse in that race. But the Israel Guardi stuff and
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: a lot of the stuff that come out of Carlson
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: and stuff, it's just, so far as I can tell,
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: it's just made up. Like it made up in the
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: sense that it has no connection to the Zohar and
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: to the actual. I mean, the main that details the
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: nature of the Clipote in Kabbalah is a Safer Carnim,
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: and the Safer Carnim has never been translated to my
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: knowledge and remains an incredibly difficult text. And I don't know.
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: When I see modern people talking about Clipote and not
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: referencing basically the most important encyclopedia on the Clapote, I'm like, what,
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: what's this? Something weird is happening here. There's some there's
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: some disconnect between between the source material and what's being generated.
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: And you know, they'll talk about ten clipote and the
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: text is really clear, they're seven clepote. That's universally agreed upon.
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: They're the upper three sphere out never become clepote. So yeah,
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: So it's like for me, the traditional text or the
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: text that I work in, and when I see like
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: weird stuff in the twentieth century of the twenty first
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: century that I can't find any references to to show
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: me that the actual continuity between what they're doing and
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: what was developed traditionally. It's just I don't know what's
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: the right way of putting it. Like a good analogy,
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: it's like if you're reading about Star Wars and all
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: of a sudden, like like like a I mean, it's
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: not agreement. I like you you're reading a like a
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: like an X Men novel, and all of a sudden,
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: like Kirk shows up with his phaser and shoots Wolverine.
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: You're like, this is interesting, but this is not the
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: same thing. Something strange has happened here. But the the
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: you know, the mythology that don't make any sense anymore.
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: Are you like you know, are you like you're reading
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: a star Wars novel and all of a sudden, it's
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: not based in the future but based in like the
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: twentieth century, and Spock is now a stockbroker, and you're like,
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: hold on, this has nothing to do with Star Wars
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: or a Star Trek. Rather, so it's the literature doesn't
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: make a lot of sense to me, Frank.
• 44:47
  Speaker 3: It's yeah, it's like when you write a fan film
• 44:50
  Speaker 3: or you're doing what the professionals are doing with multiverse
• 44:53
  Speaker 3: ip mashing.
• 44:56
  Speaker 8: Is that how you feel about her metic cobble?
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: I again, it's it's Hermitic kabbala I think is again
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: from a traditional point of view, it doesn't make a
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: lot of sense to me because when I read something
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: like Spain or Spain Saturn is associated with Bna or
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: something like that, that's the alto in the Hermitic Kabba.
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: I'm like, but that can't be the case according to
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: traditional Kabbalah, because like, all of the planets exist in
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: Mahout and Bena is uh is a is a revealed
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: is this revealed sphere and therefore we don't know anything
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: about it aside from what has been revealed to us,
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: Because no, you can't rationally know anything about the top
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: three of the sphere of the sphere out and so
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: it's and also in the Zohar when the sphericra talked
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: about they're never in one place, right, Like you could
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: have Benah in the aspect of Gouvura, right, so Bna
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: can be where Gouvura is in the system. The system
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: is dynamic. God is a God is a verb in Kabbalah,
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: God is not you know. And so, but that doesn't
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: work if you want to like nail down all the
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: sphere oats so you can map them onto the e
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: ching and the tarot and all that. They need to
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: be stable, they need to be sort of fossilized into
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: very specific kinds of things. So for someone who comes
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: out of the traditional Cabbalistic world, it doesn't it doesn't
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: make a ton Yeah, it doesn't. It doesn't align if
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: you read the Zohar and other texts like the Romack
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: and the and it's like Luria because in it's like Gluria,
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: you have Cobb. You have severe roat nested within spherrout
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: at least in the lower seven spherroit. So it just
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: like yeah, like it's it can't be that that. No, No,
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: Netsach is associated to this trump of the Tarot because
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: Netsach is never just nets Netsac is in a is
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: in a relationship of the ten, and it's always into
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: the aspect of you know, whatever whatever whatever.
• 46:52
  Speaker 8: Would you say that it's different kind of end goals
• 46:56
  Speaker 8: as well.
• 46:56
  Speaker 4: I mean, it's.
• 46:59
  Speaker 8: Kind of different world views, right that you're trying to
• 47:05
  Speaker 8: mesh together, and the kind of end goal of those
• 47:10
  Speaker 8: world views are kind of different.
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I respect what you know as a magical tradition.
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: I totally respect what the Golden Down was trying to do.
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's a really heroic thing to try to
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: like create a synthesized version of basically all the world's
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: magical mystical traditions into one system with the gold I mean,
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: that's a pretty tough thing to do. And the folks
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: in the Golden Dawn, of which by the way, many
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: of them were women, who still don't get the coverage
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: they deserve. You know, we always still talk about the
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: same three guys. But I mean there are so many
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: women involved in Golden Dawn and really doing a lot
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: of that heavy lifting. But but yeah, I think it's
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: a it's an amazing accomplishment intellectually and spiritually. But if
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: I think if you come from any one of those traditions,
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: if you come from the tradition of the Eaching, or
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: you come from the tradition of the Kabbalah, it's going
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: to be a pretty murky mirror that you're looking at
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: self in. And that's not a criticism, it's just to
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: say that, you know, Yeah, it's like when I read
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: the when I read traditional Kabbalah, and then when I
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: read what my Gray rather has had to say about it,
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: I'm like, these are not the same thing. They're not
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: playing the same game, and they're not you said, they're not.
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: It's not the same world view, they're not do the
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: same thing. And I think that's fine. I think that's
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: how religions evolve and change. And you know, peer presser
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: tradition is a great thing until it's not. It's a
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: great thing when it informs your life and makes your
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: life more rich, and it gives you a way of
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: reading the world and symbols by wish to parse the world.
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: It's not a great thing when it's like peer pressure
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: from dead people. And I think that Mathers and other
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: folks who are you know, doing Golden Dawn stuff. I
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: think that they said, look, we're gonna take these traditions,
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: We're going to make them talk to each other, make
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: them do different stuff. I'm going to build a magical
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: practice and worldview out of it. I think that's a
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: noble and interesting task. Mostly, mostly, I think that there
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: are some worrying elements about it, you know, And when
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: Crowley's explicitly robbing things from the Kabbalah and all the while,
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: you know, being in a pretty voracious anti Semite, I'm like,
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: come on, guy, holy damn it, Like it's you know,
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: it's like talking down about Indian people and all the
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: while being like, yeah, we're going to take yoga and
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: show you how to really do it. And I'm like,
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: I don't think this, Yeah, you know, it's just it's yeah,
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: but again, what do you expect of a bunch of
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: Victorian dudes?
• 49:32
  Speaker 8: You know? Yeah?
• 49:34
  Speaker 6: I really appreciate that, because I that's often my take
• 49:37
  Speaker 6: as well as like you kind of have to be
• 49:38
  Speaker 6: on your own journey, Like I like the idea that
• 49:41
  Speaker 6: Golden Down and I mean I've never been a part
• 49:43
  Speaker 6: of those groups who studied them, really, but I often
• 49:45
  Speaker 6: think like you will naturally get there, like you will
• 49:48
  Speaker 6: naturally synthesize your own ideas from all the different systems.
• 49:52
  Speaker 6: And I think that is the most important approach to
• 49:55
  Speaker 6: take because it's genuinely your own lived experience, because, like
• 49:58
  Speaker 6: you said, otherwise, you get this regret of somebody's ideas
• 50:01
  Speaker 6: of what this is connected to and what's that connected to.
• 50:04
  Speaker 6: So it's interesting to hear that because I've actually never
• 50:06
  Speaker 6: really studied the Kabalaist seen how it is connected to
• 50:09
  Speaker 6: the things that I study, and I'm like, maybe I
• 50:12
  Speaker 6: don't really know that. So I appreciate your take on that,
• 50:15
  Speaker 6: because yeah, it's been my issue with certain systems is
• 50:19
  Speaker 6: like people will get there. Let them get there, choose
• 50:22
  Speaker 6: your choose your route, study your things, put it together yourself,
• 50:25
  Speaker 6: because that's what the path is about. Right. It's not
• 50:27
  Speaker 6: supposed to be this uh, this TV dinner right that
• 50:31
  Speaker 6: you put in the microwave and it's cooked.
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: And the truth of the matter is, even within one
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: tradition you're doing that. It's not like because I come
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: from one tradition in the Kabba la as our tradition,
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: it's not like I'm like, that's just there's like one
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: school I mean or there's one way of doing it,
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: a one way of understanding it. You know, Like I said,
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: I have a very an admittedly very weird take on
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: how I appreciate the cub Ala. I'm I'm, I think
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: you know, I've said this publicly, and I you know,
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: can get in trouble for it in some ways. But
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: like I don't like the Kabbalah Isaac Gloria. I think
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: it's a disaster. I think it was a disaster. I
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: think we should have stopped at Kabala of the Ramac.
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: I think that's great. I think that the couple of
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: Isaac Luria, Uh, may his merit protect us, led us
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: into dark waters with Chabatites V and all kinds of stuff.
• 51:14
  Speaker 4: Uh.
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: That's a very controversial opinion on my part. Like I get,
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: I've gotten and I've got read the Riot Act about
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: saying that. But even in one tradition, there's not the
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: one authoritative way of doing things. And and even if
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: you are, you're always doing it your own way. You know,
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: you're you're always you're always doing it, You're always doing
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: it the one way or your own way.
• 51:37
  Speaker 8: What are the difference between those two systems? If you
• 51:39
  Speaker 8: could speak on it a little bit, just very.
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: Brief so, just very briefly. So the system of the Ramac,
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: they're both caught a law right, and most Coubleists will
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: say that all Kabala includes a couple of the Ramac.
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: The Ramack is ray motion cordovera blessed memory. So the
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: Ramock system is, in my opinion, the great synthesis of
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: the Kabbala of the Zohar, and it mostly is combining
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: neoplatonic philosophy with the with the Zohar in a way
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: that systematizes it. The Zohar is not a system, it
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: is a bunch of commentaries, and so he systematizes the
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: metaphysics of it. I think he does it in a
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: very elegant way, in a very in a very simple way.
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: But you know, I shouldn't say simple, in a very
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: elegant way.
• 52:23
  Speaker 8: Uh.
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: The couplet of Isaac Luria introduces a bunch of elements
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: into the Kabbala that I think are foreign. I think
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: that that I think are are are his ideas, and
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: they're not native to the actual soil of the Zohar.
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: And they're interesting and they're neat, and they're you know,
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: they're cool to talk about, but I think they're I
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: think they are foreign importations, and I think that they
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: ultimately lead to all kinds of dangerou stuff inns. And
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: I'll give you one example of this. So, uh, the
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: Isaac Luria puts a lot of emphasis on the fact
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: that the Kaba la if practice correctly can basically forced.
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: The Messiah to come.
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: There's a kind of messianic eschatological accelerationism that is at
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: the very heart of Isaac Gloria's ideas. In fact, his
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: student was so convinced that if he just stayed up
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: one more hour a night and memorized one more mission,
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: he would become the Messiah. It led to this kind
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: of like fevered desire to bring the Messiah, and that
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: that led to this false Messiah emerging. This a guy
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: named shabatites V. In the sixteen sixties, and this was
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: a complete disaster, complete disaster. Shabbatites V. Half the world's
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: Jews started to believe that he was the Messiah. Rabbi
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: started believing he was, and you know, they packed their
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: bags and waited to go to Israel and do all
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: this stuff. And then the guy converted to Islam. You know,
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: and he invented another religion, made this all other religion
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: that exists to this day, actually, and so it was
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: a disaster. It was a huge disaster. And so I
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: laid that at the feet of Isaac Lourie. And let's
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: not say that Luria wasn't a genius and a very
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: righteous person. He certainly was. I just think that if
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: I could have convinced Isaac Luria and never to come
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: to Safed, I would have stay in Egypt, don't come
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: to Safed, let the Roma win the day. But obviously
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: that did not happen. And I and I and to
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: be clear, I am in the vast minority of position
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: of people who say who say this? So this is
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: me outing myself as a kind of very heterodox person
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: with interest in the Kambala.
• 54:31
  Speaker 5: I actually have a redirection sort of, but it's it's interrelated.
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: We'll say.
• 54:36
  Speaker 5: So you at the beginning, you spoke like the linguistic
• 54:39
  Speaker 5: elements of the Sidomic language, and how you noticed it
• 54:43
  Speaker 5: was very similar to English in every way. But I wondered,
• 54:47
  Speaker 5: if you see a pattern of ritual grammars throughout Uh,
• 54:51
  Speaker 5: we'll just say tradition broadly that may or may not
• 54:56
  Speaker 5: include a lot, in your opinion, whatever you want to include,
• 54:59
  Speaker 5: But do you like a ritual grammar that is consistent
• 55:02
  Speaker 5: or perhaps interrelated between the different canons and different sort
• 55:07
  Speaker 5: of regional works.
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that the ritual canon is a Catholic mass.
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: I mean, basically, all Western magic, at least as it
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: emerges in the early Modern period or after the Middle Ages,
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: is based in some ways on some element from Catholic liturgy.
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: And I mean even Necromannic conjurations of demons are based
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: on exorcisms, right, They're just sort of a long form
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: version of exorism, which wasn't which wasn't patented so to speak,
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: until the seventeenth century. So underneath the hood of I
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: think most of Western magic, with a little bit of
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: an exception of some Jewish stuff that does make it
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: in via the Solomonic tradition, it's really pretty Catholic. This
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: is the thing that I've always been found interesting because
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: I'm kind of an outsider to both traditions. I'm obviously
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: neither Catholic nor an occultist, but I found that the
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: fact that Catholicism is a lot closer to a occultism
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: than Tholicism wants to admit and Occultism is a lot
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: closer to the Tholicism than it wants to admit. Oh yeah, sure,
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: and that this the neither side can neither side can
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: come to terms with this. They the occultists really don't
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: want to be Christians, and the Christians really don't want
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: to be a cultist, and the truce's the matter is,
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: there's about eighty percent overlap, with the exception of some
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: Arab Astro magic from Pika Trix and some Jewish solemonic
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: magic coming in from from the East, which makes up
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: maybe that other you know, twenty percent or so, you
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: know again in some survivals of rometic stuff, but very little.
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: But yeah, you know, when you look at a book
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: of you know, this is a funny thing. I often
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: will talk to Protestants who've never been a Catholic church
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: and you've never heard of Catholic Mass, or Catholics even
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: who really didn't pay a lot of attention to what
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: was going on in theatrics of the Mass. They'll read
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: these necromantic manuals and go, wow, this is really creepy
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: and weird and like this technical stuff and you have
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: to look to the east and do this, and you
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: have to fumigate this thing and do that and put
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: the sword here and do this. And they're like, why
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: it's so weird and CULTI I'm like, it's just Cathlicism.
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: Like I've been to Catholic masses all the time, and
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: I'm like they're doing theorgy like this is just theorgy,
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: Like this is not this is what Yamukas was talking about.
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: And of course, like who is Yamblakas competing with? He's
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: competing with the Christians, right, and the Christians are developing
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: their own counter theorgy based on what they're doing. And
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: it's a whole you know, meme war about about theogical
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: development and I you know, I'm like, yeah, it's just
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: because you're a Protestant. You go to church and nothing happens.
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: They go to church and they change a cracker into
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: some dude's body, like they're doing magic up there, you know,
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: like they're doing like like too cute theorgy, Like they're
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: like they are inducing a miracle in front of you.
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: They and I'm and I live in the neighborhood where
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: my where the cathedral is, and every time they do masks,
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: they ring the bells to announce that basically, And I'm like,
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: you guys just don't see the magic because you're too
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: Protestant to see it, and you don't see it even
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: as a Catholic because it's normal to you, and you're
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: not seeing the fact that what's going on is like
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: fourth century the orgy.
• 58:05
  Speaker 4: I grew up Catholic, Yeah, and I loved it.
• 58:08
  Speaker 6: I loved all the ritual, like the beings sprayed with
• 58:10
  Speaker 6: the water from the evergreen and like, I'm so grateful
• 58:15
  Speaker 6: I grew up Catholic. I'm not Catholic now I'm a Buddhist,
• 58:17
  Speaker 6: but like, I'm so grateful for that ritual because it
• 58:20
  Speaker 6: is very h Yeah, I loved it for that reason.
• 58:23
  Speaker 4: So it's interesting to see that you put it so
• 58:25
  Speaker 4: closely to occult practitioners.
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: That's fun, I think again, I think it's I mean,
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: there's no Western magidition without the Catholic Church. It just
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: doesn't exist. If if the Catholic Church had never come
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: to Western Europe, there would be a completely unrecognizably different
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: form of whatever. But ritual magic especially is and even
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: some non ritual magics like hudo and voodoo are unimmed.
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: This is not possible without without the without the Catholic Church.
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: I mean one of the episodes I made was so
• 58:59
  Speaker 1: prior to the Roman ritual being developed, and like I
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: forget exactly sixteen oh four, that's probably not right, be
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: careful dates. But the poor, the poor exorcism was finalized.
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: I mean it was common for necromancers to have exercist
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: manuals because they were the same thing. If a person's
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: possessed and you can take the demon out of them,
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: you can put them to work. Why why let a
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: good demon go to waste? Uh, it's the same exact logic.
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: It's the same rituals, right that they're not They're not
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: fundamentally different rituals. I mean, there's a reason why necromantic
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: circles from medieval books of magic are full of names
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: of God. And again the heisup, you know, being sprayed
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: at them, and you know them being accosted, and then
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: you know these various Hebrew names for God. It's like, yeah,
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: this this is just you know, like in nominipas. Feel
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: it's the same. It's it's it's exact same ritual just
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: being utilized for a very different end.
• 59:59
  Speaker 3: What do I get a feed my shamir because I
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 3: got a house to build.
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know what shamir is eat. Actually, uh yeah,
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: well you won't have a pet. I thought I would
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: love to have a shamir. I mean, I wouldn't have
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: a lot of use for a shamir. But you know
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: this is there's a there's a story in the and
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: the and the Tommut about building the temple. And one
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: of the prohibitions in the Bible of building the temple
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: is that you can't use stone that's been hewn with iron.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: And it's quite difficult to build a giant temple without
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: hewn stones. And so the story that Gamar ends up
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: coming up with is a magic worm basically could cut
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: the blocks using their magic worm. This is a bizarre
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: So it's one of my I just love the rabbit.
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: I was sitting around being like, so how do they
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: do it?
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: I don't know how, what do you think?
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: I don't know? A magic worm. They're like, let's do it.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: Let's go with that. A magic worm protected by Asmodius
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: of all things, the king of the demons, who's remarkably pious.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 3: Actually, that's right, you know, you know it was the
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 3: it was the ancient Aliens theory of its time right,
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 3: and people.
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: Still by the way, and people still think that the
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: Schamir is out there. I've heard you know that the
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: chmir will we will reappear in the days of the Messiah.
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 8: M hm.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 3: I'm waiting for dragons to come back. I'm gonna, I'm
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 3: gonna have one.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 8: I was wondering would you be able to speak on
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 8: like modern Messianism and apocalypticism in Christianity and Judaism.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: I don't know if I can say a lot about
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: it because I don't do a lot of study of
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: contemporary stuff. Most of my most of the study that
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: I work in as like more medieval and ancient stuff.
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: But I mean, I think I've I said this before,
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: is that there's really no such thing as like Christianity
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: or Judaism or as long there's just apocalyptic flavors of
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: this stuff. That apocalypticism is actually the religion we all
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: believe in everything from like zombie movies to you know,
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: to whatever. It's like, it's all apocalyptic in some level
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: and our politics wrapped up in it. I mean, how
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: much do Christian evangelicals give to the state of Israel,
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: to do the things that they do in order to
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: basically accelerate Jesus coming back, because if you dump enough
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: money in Israel, Jesus will come back quicker. This is
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: a uh, it's religious. Hubert's the level I can't even imagine.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: And of course the religious Zionis is more than happy
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: to take their money because they think they must is
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: going to come back and whoop those people's ask. So
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: everyone's betting on different horses.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 3: Anti costicism I think that's what they call it. Yeah,
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 3: you're denying life. Basically, it's a bizarre it's a it's
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 3: a bizarre thing. But no, I think that that apocalypticism
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 3: is just baked into religiosity, or Christianity is inherently and
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 3: apocalyptic religion. I mean Christians have been believing the world's
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 3: about to end since Jesus. I mean Jesus said to
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 3: his own followers, some of us, there are some among
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 3: you that will not taste death. So that's been there
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 3: baked in and Judaism too. I think the most interesting
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 3: element is in Judaism.
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: Now there's this uh, this messianic movement that emerged around
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: the former Reba of the I guess he's still the Rebbit,
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: I don't know, the leader of Kabbad Lubavitch, the Khabbad movement,
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: who passed away and then in the nineties, and there
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: is a very strong faction of them that believe that
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: he is in fact either not dead or he's occulted,
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: or that something has happened. He's going to come back
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: pretty soon and he's going to be the He's the Messiah.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: And you can go to Brooklyn and you'll see posters
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: everywhere they have his picture and they say King Massiah
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: on them. And this is the beginning I think of
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: a of a new religion for me, that there will
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: be within Judaism, an offshoot religion that is ultimately emerging
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: around the claim that this the leader of Hbbad lababich
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: Is is in fact the Messiah. And I've definitely I've
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: studied in those Yshi vote and I've been in that
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 1: world for a little while, and I've definitely met people
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: who say things like, no, he's not really dead, he's hidden.
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: It's very Shia feeling, right, he's he occulted Messiah, or
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: that he's his few used with God and he's kind
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: of liked God at this point and you're like, hold on,
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: you're reinventing the trinity. So I think that's an interesting
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: thing that's going on now in Judaism. But but no,
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: I think that you know, look, Messianism has been baked
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: into the Western world even before Christianity. I mean the
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: Kumaran and the Dead Sea scrolls. It's just baked in.
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: And I think, like I said, there's a reason why
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: we all like to watch zombie movies is because that
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 1: we all have. We like zombie movies now because they're scary.
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: We like zombie movies because we want it to happen,
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: Like that's the deep urge is for the world to end,
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: and we all have that apocalyptic urge, and so we
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: like these like into the world movies, you know, where
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: the comet hits the earth or zombies kill us all
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: or some outbreak or whatever. It's because we've we've been
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: you know again, I'm a Jungian, I'm a Lacanian, uh,
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: and that we you know, la Con says there's no cure,
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: there's just a coming to there's learning to enjoy your symptom.
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: And we have an apocalyptic neurosis, and the way we
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: enjoy the symptom is we like watching the world end
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: over and over and over again because we can't get
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: it to actually end unfortunately.
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 8: Uh.
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: And you know, my favorite bumper sticker is one of
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: the ones that sort of looked like President Obama's campaign
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: ad and it just said big fucking media just ended already.
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: And I always like the idea, like, you know, this
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 1: is literally we are we are in some sense praying
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: to be wiped out. And that apocalyptic impulse I think
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: is just two thousand years old, Like we want to
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: see the end, and not only do we want to
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 1: see it, we're entitled to it. I mean, how many
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: people think literally we are the last generation. It is us,
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: we're the last ones. It's not just that we want
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 1: it to happen, we are entitled to it. And I
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 1: find that to be Uh, there's a kind of interesting, uh,
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: a nihilistic hubris.
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 6: Yeah. It's like in Buddhism, there is like the twelve
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 6: link chain of causation of debt, life and death, and
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 6: so caught in that chain, the first link in the
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 6: chain is ignorance.
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 4: So it's like, you know, getting caught up in that
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 4: chain of life and death and just.
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 6: Rotating through that cycle is part of like breaking out
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 6: of that is what Buddhism is as like a big
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 6: part of the practice. But also do like back to
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 6: the Nabat and agriculture, Now, did Abraham come from that culture?
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 4: Correct?
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 6: And like how do you see this like continuation because
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 6: they were star people, right, they were astrologers. They based
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 6: all other stuff on the land and all that kind
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 6: of stuff. But then he kind of started to be
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 6: one of the first sort of profit figures. So how
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 6: do you see like do you see like a shift
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 6: in how religion and like would you say that kind
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 6: of established the Western take on religion.
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 4: I mean, obviously it did, but yeah, yeah, it's a
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 4: huge question.
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 1: I mean it's certainly the you know, the mythology of
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: Abraham as being sort of a idol smasher, right, and
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: he broke with the Chaldeans and he quit worshiping stars
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 1: and idols and became a monotheist. I think it's all retrojection.
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 1: I mean, and we know that nation is right polytheists,
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 1: you know, they weren't. They weren't monotheism as very late
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: in the history of Israelite religion. I mean they were
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: polytheists in the sense of they were hemo theists. You know,
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: my dad can beat up your dad. It's such, your
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: dad's not real. It's just my dad can beat your
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: dad up. At least in my neighborhood. Right over here
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: where we live, my dad is in control. So I
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 1: think that it was I think that that whole Abraham
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: monotheism stuff as a retrojection back into the past to
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 1: justify theology they had long since adopted. But again, it's
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 1: it's a split narrative, right because on the one hand,
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 1: there's this idea that, oh, yeah, we quit worshiping stars
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: and we quit dealing with astrology and blah blah blah blah.
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: But that didn't never happen, like that, astrology was alive
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: and well in Judaism. You know, it's alive and well
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: in Islam, and a live well in Christianity. So it's
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: theologically contested, but with few exceptions to people just say no,
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: this is not real. You know, in fact, none of
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: the really it's it's it's it's much later, it's it's
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: in the nineteenth century where that where this has ultimately
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 1: decided that this is not true. But religious religiously, they
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 1: never put the can on it.
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 7: I wonder I'll be quick, hopefully. I wonder in regards
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 7: to this kind of apocalyptic mindset, you did an excellent
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 7: presentation on Afshara, the goddess consort of Yahweh. I wonder
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 7: what maybe you might have learned about the short term
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 7: implications historical and philosophical and otherwise that you might have
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 7: heard or referenced or inferenced in your studies. And maybe
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 7: I think you kind of touched on it, But might
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 7: what might be the long term implications of this in
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 7: our cultural and philosophical outlook.
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 1: If you will, I think for a tiny amount of
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: people it'll be it'll be of interest, and for the
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 1: rest of people they'll ignore it. Yeah, I think that
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 1: most people don't care. I mean, this is the one
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: thing that all academics and scholars suffer from, the hubris
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 1: of believing that people care about what they what they do.
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 1: At the end of the day, people who really want
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 1: to believe that, you know, monent Theism was always what
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 1: Israelite did, Israelites did, They're going to look at it,
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 1: and again also the evidence is really spare. We have
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 1: like two inscriptions, and they're going to look at that
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 1: and say, yeah, of course the Israelites worshiped other gods.
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 1: That's what all the prophets told them not to do.
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 1: Like this is not new, They're just wrong all along. Yeah,
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 1: Like you found two inscriptions about what the prophets talked
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: about fifty times. So I think that if you and yeah,
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 1: for a ton of group of people who want to
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: like go back to the days of worshiping Ashera whatever,
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 1: maybe they'll do that. They'll be fifty fifty people out
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 1: there that'll that for whom that will inform some change
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: in the religious practice. But you know, it would be
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 1: maddening hubris to things that that you know, a YouTube
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 1: channel is going to make a dent and thousands of
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 1: years of tradition and it's not it's not my task anyway,
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 1: it's not what I'm trying to do. Miss just to say, like,
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: look like this is the data indicates that this was
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 1: a thing. And and for some people they are like, oh, yeah,
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 1: that disproves the Bible. And then another people say, oh no,
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 1: that exactly proved the Bible. That's exactly the prophets we're
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: talking about. So it's hilarious that you know, depending on
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 1: the harmoneutic you bring to it, you hear what's exactly
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 1: what you want to hear, which is always the case, right,
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 1: we never read books, we're just reading us.
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 2: I just wanted to follow up.
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 5: It was a little whiles ago, a little while ago,
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 5: So I apologize, but you spoke about whodo and it's
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 5: kind of well, I don't want to speak for you
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 5: justin but you positive like a relationship with falsism. I
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 5: don't know if you're familiar with Catherine Ironwood, but she
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 5: posits a relationship with the sort of nineteen thirties Jewish
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 5: owned spiritual and mail order and drug store magic like
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 5: ocult supply stores kind of.
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the seventh and eighth Books of Moses and stuff.
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 5: Yes, and how that was sort of an introduction of
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 5: that kind of like practical Cobola, we could say, into
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 5: this more Afro syncretic tradition.
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: I don't know if discree. Yeah, so I to plead
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 1: ignorance here. I just don't know. I don't work in
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: much in the twentieth century, which is funny because in
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 1: growing up, who Do and Vodi were just like all
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 1: around me. I was a working class person in Mississippi,
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 1: so people went to root workers like it was a
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 1: this was a thing that I knew about, you know,
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 1: new people that went to root workers. I've lived near
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 1: New Orleans, so it was a thing that, like we
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 1: we I experienced firsthand. But as an academic, I'm largely
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 1: ignorant to the to the history of it and and
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 1: things like that. So I don't want to I don't
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 1: want to speak on something that that I don't have
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: a especially the religious and spiritual traditions of a minority
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 1: or of oppressed minority. I don't want to like pretend
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 1: to know speak on it when I don't have any
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 1: any I don't know how any learning about it.
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 3: I I remember while back when you had dropped that
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 3: first yahweh h video where you found some of the
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 3: work that showed him in the Pagan reflects, you know,
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 3: uh something trying to remember from all the way back
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 3: because it was it was a favorite episode. I remember
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 3: leaving a comment that I think you would at least
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 3: uh put a put a like to about where I
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 3: said like something like oh, pagan yahweh for the win
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 3: or some some some silly little hurah comment, right, Because
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 3: I love I love digging back, like you know, like
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 3: I I I love doing things like I want to
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 3: look at the Zoroastrianism and go to Pre's like I
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 3: love going pre what's been written down like where he
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 3: gets more anthropological. And there's not so many books other
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 3: than books written about what was discovered, right.
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 8: Have you?
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 3: Because I'm not in touch with a whole lot that
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 3: you've done on that subject since then? How much of
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 3: you expanded on the pagan roots of your ancestors and
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 3: and how that has reflected in the UH, in your
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 3: in your relationship with with you doing the thing.
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 1: I guess that would be slow to use the word
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 1: pagan just because it's like a it's a Christian term
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 1: applied to Romans, and we're talking about iron Age Canaanites,
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 1: so it's just like A, it's a term, and I'm like, yeah,
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 1: it's like a it's a category that I'm not super
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 1: comfortable with, but in the sense of like ancient Canaanite policyism, sure,
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 1: like that's just yeah, that's the rule. I think that
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 1: The major thing that if I could go back and
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 1: change anything about that episode, I guess based on more
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 1: recent readings, is there's been a new book out that argues,
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 1: I think, well that in the same way that we
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 1: clearly she We pretty clearly see manifestations of Baal and
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 1: different geographic locations where that manifestation of Baal is idiosyncratic
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 1: to that geography. Think about the way the madonna appears
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 1: in different places, right, we have the you know, the
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 1: black Madonna over here in the shrine of this or
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 1: Demeter right in the ancient world. Demeter appears in different
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 1: manifestations in different geographical regions. That There's been a recent
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 1: book out that says that probably Yahweh also appeared manifested
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 1: in different regions in different forms, and therefore in the
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 1: same way that we have ba Al Hadad and you know,
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 1: Bala Zephone like those are probably different manifestations of something
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 1: like a unified being. But but local regional developments would
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 1: have meant that they would have thought about them as
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 1: different gods. And that so we may even have to
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 1: think that it's not that Yahweh is a god among gods.
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 1: Is that Yahweh may have been on gods among gods, right,
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 1: And that would track very well to what we know
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 1: about Baal, and it would tract do very well to
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 1: what we know about Mediterranean in religions more generally. So
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 1: that's a that's a vector of the conversation that I
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 1: did not include because I just hadn't read that this
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 1: book hadn't come out yet, and so I read. I
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 1: read that book, and I think I'll probably do a
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 1: follow up as episode at some point to show that
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 1: that it's probably the case that we shouldn't think about
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 1: these gods as individuated beings, but as manifestations, are avatars
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 1: or something. I don't know what the best I wouldn't
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 1: want to use the word avatar, but the but local
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 1: manifestation meant that they're that they were not numerical identities.
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 1: We tend to think of God's as numerical identities, right
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 1: like that that aries equals aries no matter where aries appears.
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 1: That's not the way ancient people thought about them.
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 3: Is Ball always the title for lord? Or is it
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 3: sometimes actually the name?
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's both, right like sometimes you know, it's
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 1: all means just lord, I mean in modern in Hebrew
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 1: just means it can also mean husband, you mean owner,
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 1: like manager, So it just has that valance. But clearly
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 1: the and even you always sometimes referred to as.
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 3: Ball, So yeah, and and and the one thing I say,
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 3: just because I always believe there's the linguistic connection in
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 3: some remote way in the old Norse. We got balder
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 3: odin son, right, And I think that the all there
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 3: has a placement being that he is a. He is
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 3: a deity. He's not like a he's not even a
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 3: demi god. He's definitely a full blown god who's the
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 3: son of that chief god of the old Father, you know.
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 3: So there could be a lordship implied for Boulder. What's that?
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 1: And he survives Ragnarok, Well, he he's reborn.
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 3: After Yes, he's really, Yes, he's a. He's slain by
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 3: the blind God via the tricks of Loki. And then
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 3: he is set up to be held but in Hellheim
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 3: by Hell herself as a special guest with a whole
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 3: banquet table, and she's not going to give him up
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 3: until the entire universe says we miss him.
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 3: There is no appreciation from every single atomic, conscious, sentient, spirit,
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 3: god whatever in the all of creation and the.
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 7: Shoot.
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 3: I can't remember the name of the elite who took
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 3: sleep near Odin's horse went and failed because Gratitude, who
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 3: may have been Loki in disguise, He could not convince
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 3: Gratitude herself to weep for Balder Thus he's until Ragnarok.
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 1: And it's possible that also, like, because we do know
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 1: that some Semitic gods do go west, right, so I
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 1: don't I that God does become Adonis, right, so that
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 1: we do get some we do that there is some
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 1: cultural shift. And mL West has made probably the most
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 1: decisive book on this three be one of the best
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 1: best books ever written in terms of the study of
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 1: the stuff I do. It's called The Hells On Looks East.
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 1: That shows that Greek stuff is all wrapped up in
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 1: Canaanite mythology, agreements old hit Tite mythology. So that stuff
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 1: is that's a fantastic book.
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 6: I seem to ask you hit Tite, That's what I
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 6: was wondering, because the hit Tite is the land of
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 6: a thousand gods.
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 4: I was wondering. I've always wondered, what is the Jewish
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 4: connection to hit type? I like try to figure this out.
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 1: So the Hittites were long, long, long extinct by the
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 1: time that Jews showed up. Yeah, so Hittites they get
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 1: destroyed during the the the Bronze Age collapse. They don't
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 1: survive the Bronze Age collapse. But they they must have
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 1: made some impression because there are people in the Hebrew
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 1: Bible and referred to as Hittites, so they had some
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 1: memory of them of Hatusa, and you know, they were
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 1: the Trojans, That's who the Trojans were, were hit type people. Also,
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 1: the first religious studies scholars. Hit Tites were known to collect,
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 1: to collect everybody's everybody's gods and everybody's religious text. We
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 1: discovered whole new languages. A whole new Indo European language
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 1: is discovered last year because the Tites collected all these
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 1: ritual texts. So yeah, they are fascinating people. And also
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 1: they just were happy to mix and mash their religion,
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 1: you know, and you look at some of their their literature.
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 1: They're Indo European people, so you'd expect to have them
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 1: to have an Indo European pantheon, which we know a
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 1: good bit about, but they pretty quickly adopted some kind
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 1: of Anatolian pantheon and mixed it with Indio Europeans. There. Fam,
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 1: there's a great book that I have literally in front
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 1: of me.
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 4: Nice.
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 6: Yeah, because there's that greenstone as well that they have
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 6: on their in Hatusa.
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 1: What's that called Yeah, this is called Hittite myths. This
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 1: is the collect standard collection of all of the hit
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 1: type myths. I'm gonna make a video about because I
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 1: just find the Hittites to be a fascinating people. They're
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 1: also as do I. It's a it's a. Their language
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 1: is also really difficult to learn, but cool.
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 6: I looked up, like I tried to do mundane astrology
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 6: for like the different plagues and the different wars that
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 6: they went through. Also the Treaty of Kadesh, right, and
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 6: that was a yeah, the first treaty ever done, and
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 6: so I find that so fascinating. But I tried to
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 6: do mundane astrology to see if the eclipse timing and the.
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 4: Full moods and all that kind of stuff could help.
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 6: Understand and from a perspective of looking in I found
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 6: it very interesting because you can kind of see the
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 6: timing of when the plagus happened and all that kind
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 6: of stuff.
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 4: But cool, I'm going to get that book, thank you.
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 8: You know what's really cool too, just you guys mentioning
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 8: those those things, is that there are these asteroid belts
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 8: in our solar system, and so there's like the main
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 8: asteroid belt which is right past Venus's orbit. And then
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 8: Jupiter has this orbit and it has two like asteroid
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 8: belts kind of in orbit with Jupiter. It's not a
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 8: full belt, it's just like these two kind of oblong
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 8: kind of belts, and they're called the Trojan asteroid belts,
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 8: which is kind of perfect right that Jupiter would be
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 8: orbiting with these Trojan asteroid belts.
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it's a it's a fascinating thing. It's also
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 1: fascinating thing that the Trojans were Hittites. I just always like,
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 1: like we know who they were, and like we have
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 1: a sense of what and also we have a sense
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 1: of why the war happened. It wasn't that the Greeks
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 1: were invading because of getting a Helen back. It was
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 1: because of the Barn's edge collapse, the refugees, like they
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 1: invaded Egypt. They it was they invaded their refugees and
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 1: their homelands were trashed, and so they they they they
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 1: left and uh when they were successful so called sea
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 1: people's one of which begin with Tilsten's mm hmmm.
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 6: It's it's very interesting to read the Iliad with this awareness,
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 6: like I just re read it or I'm like just
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 6: started to read again that the Trojans were actually the
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 6: hit Tights.
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 2: So I love it.
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 1: Which translation are you reading?
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 4: I don't know whichever my boyfriend had. It's just which
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 4: one do you suggest?
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 1: I mean, there's the classic one is a lot more,
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 1: but I when I'm then, this new Odyssey movie is
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 1: coming out, and recently a woman has translated about the
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 1: Alien and the Odyssey for the first time, and I'm
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 1: curious to read her translations because it's such a blood
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 1: soaked book, especially the a Iliad and the end of
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 1: the Odyssey. It's just absolutely massacres. So it's interesting to see,
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 1: you know, that a woman's translated it for the first time.
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 1: I'd also really recommend if you really love beautiful poetry.
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 1: One of the most slept on translations of the Iliad
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 1: is Hobbes's translation. We think of Hobbes as a political philosopher,
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 1: but Hobbs is an excellent translator of Greek. He translated
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 1: through Cities, and he also translated some of the homer
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 1: and his trade translations are really really good. They have
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 1: that kind of cha he kind of feel to it.
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 6: That might be the one I'm reading, because it is
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 6: very poetic and I do really enjoy it.
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 1: I mean, a lot of more is probably I mean
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 1: it's also very poety. A lot of more is the
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 1: classic standard one that you know, I've read.
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 4: What was the woman's name?
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 1: What is her name?
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 2: I'll look it up justin I didn't have a question
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 2: for you with a little bit with the Christianity and
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 2: magic touch on that you know, in the past, and
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 2: I would even say in the future with their own
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 2: way especially so it was like satanic panic, but like
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 2: you know, even in the past, Christianity has always been
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 2: known for like condemning man. But then like even mouth
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 2: yeah right, yeah, and uh, even from my own experiences
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 2: getting into this, you know, ceremonial magic, you know, getting
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 2: into that personally and reading like grim Mars and just
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 2: all the books, I even was just like, well, there's
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 2: a lot of Christian Catholicism like in this stuff or
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 2: imagery or you know, just stuff that ties back to
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 2: like just Catholicism, and uh, I just it's just like
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 2: all right, so like at what they condemn it, but
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 2: like yet they have their own you know, they have
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 2: their own oils. They have again you even mentioned the Eucharist,
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 2: they have exorcisms, they have holy water, blessings, sat you can,
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 2: you know, with the saints and petitions, they have all
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 2: that stuff. So like, what is it that they're actually
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 2: condemning when it comes to magic? In your opinion, I
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 2: think that there's two things. The first thing is but
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 2: magic is just always an othering term. It was invented
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 2: as another in term, right. The Greeks invented it to
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 2: describe with the what the Persians did, Right, we do
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 2: religion there they do maguli. They're maguli, they're they're magaea.
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 2: Magic was invented as a term to describe what Persians did,
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 2: and of course the Greeks had a very low opinion
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 2: of the Persians, so the term was invented as a
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 2: way of othering people. So at the heart of it, right,
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 2: when you talk about sorcery and magic or whatever, you're
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 2: not talking about what is.
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 8: What?
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 1: What is?
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 8: What is uh?
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 1: What people do or don't do? What you're talking about
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 1: what is legitimate? What is illegitimate? And what I do
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 1: with religion and what you do with superstition. It's that
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 1: kind of thing, right, It's it's who's on the inside
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 1: who's on the outside. And so that's the first, right,
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 1: is that the church wants to have a monopoly on
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 1: what we might call supernatural causation. They want to have
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 1: a monopoly on supernatural causation, and so what they do
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 1: is they say, basically, anything outside of that is magic, malifikia,
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 1: you know, whatever legal, technical term you want to use.
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 1: But there's also a theological worry. And the theological worry
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 1: I get a little bit more, is that part of
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 1: what the Church and basically any religious institution wants is
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 1: to preserve the sovereignty of God, because if God is
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 1: a sovereign then at some level you're not legitimate because
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 1: there could be other Because if God's tapped you to
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 1: be the legitimate representation of God in the world and
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 1: God's not sovereign, then you can kind of muck with that.
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 1: There's a wiggle room. And most institutions of power don't
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 1: want a lot of wiggle room. They're not interested in
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 1: that becase they want to hold onto that power. And
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 1: there's a worry that if it's the case that you
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 1: can force the hand of God or force the hand
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 1: of angels to do stuff, then you have a kind
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 1: of power that breaks the system. You have a power
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 1: that breaks the power of the priesthood, breaks the power
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 1: of of You shouldn't able to do that, like it's
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 1: it's there's something, there's something squarely going on with that.
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 1: And so I think that there's there are two worries.
• 1:27:09
  Speaker 1: There's a political worry, which is always wrapped up in
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 1: who's on the inside and who's on the outside, and
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 1: who has legitimate power and who doesn't. Right, that's just
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 1: the politics of power. There's also this theological worry that
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 1: believing that you can compel God to do stuff, or
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 1: believing you compel angels to do stuff, is a violation
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 1: of the theology. God is sovereign. The angels work directly
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 1: for God. You can't make angels do stuff because they
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 1: don't answer to you. You know, who are you some schmuck?
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 7: Is it?
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 1: Why is Michael going to stop whatever Michael's doing? Because
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 1: you know, God got him doing whatever God needs him
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 1: to do. He's going to pick the phone up for you.
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 1: You're just some guy, right, like this is you? This
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 1: is hubris? And so that actually I think that theological
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 1: that theological worry makes some sense to me. Right to
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 1: think that you you know, you can pick the phone
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 1: up and to call Gabriel and Gables like, don't dude,
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 1: I'm announcing over here to like this woman likeah blah
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 1: blah blah. And you're like like, like, I got I
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 1: got the digits for Gabriel and twit now you know,
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 1: retweet Gabriel stuff. So I think that that's the story.
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 1: It's that it's like the ability to force theology. But
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 1: the church makes concessions to this, right, But the church
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 1: makes concessions, and the most popular concession of this is intercession.
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 1: Intercession is the church's answer to magic. Don't go to
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 1: the local necromancer and try to summon an angel or
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 1: demon to get them do stuff for you.
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 2: Don't do that.
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 1: Why because you have access to intercession. So one level
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 1: of intercession is saint intercession.
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 1: You can ask an angel who's really good at a
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 1: certain thing, right, finding lost stuff or whatever, and you
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 1: pray to that saint. And because that saint basically like
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 1: you know, retweets you to God. And because that saint
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 1: it has such a divine favor, you get a direct
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 1: line to the to the to the big Guy. And
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 1: if that fails, then you have the ultimate nuclear weapon,
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 1: which is a Jewish mother. There's no nothing there's no
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 1: force more powerful in the universe and a Jewish mother,
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 1: and it just so happens that the one time the
• 1:29:06
  Speaker 1: apostles the apostles, and there's no bigger saints than those cats.
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 1: They needed Jesus to do something at the wedding of Cana.
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 1: Jesus did not want to turn the water into wine,
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 1: and they asked him, asked me, you didn't do it,
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 1: So what do they do? They deployed the ultimate weapon,
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 1: his mom, right, and they told, hey, Mary, get him,
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 1: get him to do it. And guess what his mom said,
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 1: Jesus do the thing. Good Jewish boy, tell his mom no.
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 1: So guess what you can do in Catholicism. If the
• 1:29:33
  Speaker 1: Saints won't answer, if God won't answer, you go to
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 1: the nuclear option. You go ask Mary to ask Jesus,
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 1: because Jesus can't say no to Mary. If that's not
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 1: like high level like chess magic, playing one entity against
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 1: another to get some get to get you know, you
• 1:29:53
  Speaker 1: need to pass your SATs or whatever. But that's clearly right.
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 1: That was clearly a folk practice that the Church I'm
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 1: sure was at some point very uncomfortable with, but it
• 1:30:04
  Speaker 1: was probably so popular they couldn't get rid of it.
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 1: And so that functions right as a kind of as
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 1: a kind of magic. And again, if I could summon
• 1:30:14
  Speaker 1: an angel or demon to get something like maybe that'll work,
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 1: but I know will definitely work. Is Jesus Mama like
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 1: that will work. He's like, hey, is Ema, you need
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 1: to go do.
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 2: This, And she's like, okay.
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 1: So this is a place where where you can't conjure
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 1: a demon to get you to find barry treasure, but
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 1: you can call Mary to Jesus force you to look Guys, like,
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 1: you can call it whatever you want to call it.
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 1: You could if you don't want to call it magic, fine,
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 1: but it'll do until the magic shows up.
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 2: That's a really good point. That's pretty funny.
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 1: And I talking to Catholics about this marrying and a
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 1: saint intercession and marrying INSULSTIONI like, yeah, but we're not
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 1: worshiping her. I'm like okay, like like it you know again,
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 1: like you want to split a hair, we can split hairs.
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 1: But if if there were a big statue of me
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 1: and people were lighting candles in front of me and
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 1: begging me for stuff, I'm like, yeah, it's not worship
• 1:31:12
  Speaker 1: you call whatever you want to call it, you know,
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 1: like you want to split the hair and not call
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 1: it magic, not call it like divine divine compulsion. You
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 1: can do whatever you want. But but Protestant Martin Luther
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 1: really disliked this stuff, or at least some of it,
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 1: and this was you know, did lead to prosimism. But yeah,
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 1: I think that at the heart of again, at the
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 1: heart of so much of Western ceremonial magic, especially conjurations
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 1: of angels and demons, this is a good stuff. It's
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 1: like compelling these metaphysical entities to get you stuff. And
• 1:31:44
  Speaker 1: the Church's answer to that is, yeah, we already got that,
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 1: like pray to Saint Michael or whatever.
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 3: Or you know, in paganism, you have all the spirits
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 3: that are out there, some of them have a certain
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 3: linements to different gods, and you have the spirits that
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 3: are that are with you. You know, you know, things
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 3: like your haminga and such. You know, guardian spirits and
• 1:32:12
  Speaker 3: and whatnot, and you know which thing gets translated to
• 1:32:15
  Speaker 3: like guardian angels and and and things like that, or
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 3: like you know, your own personal fate, your own personal
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 3: norn has been uh suggested as well, right, And so
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 3: the pagan relationship. It's actually very much the same, where like, yeah, no,
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 3: the big guy doesn't have time, and none of the
• 1:32:33
  Speaker 3: pagan gods are omna whatever, well except for Heimdahl. Technically
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 3: he's sees and watches and here's everything as but that's
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 3: kind of what he is as a being. So he's
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 3: also like God. He hears all your prayers and he's
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 3: got time for none of them because you're screwing with
• 1:32:50
  Speaker 3: the space time continuum, right, And it's not his position.
• 1:32:54
  Speaker 3: He's just on lookout and protecting things existentially. But the
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 3: long story short is is that I think that's where
• 1:33:02
  Speaker 3: the Christians get this big problem, is that they've gone
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 3: and they've stripped down the entire spirit world and then
• 1:33:13
  Speaker 3: tried to force fit it into angels and demons and
• 1:33:16
  Speaker 3: uh and different characteristics of of the Trinity of God and.
• 1:33:23
  Speaker 4: And it's uh, it's.
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 3: It's caused an unnecessary theological uh debate about things when
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 3: it ought to be you know, understood that there are
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 3: many things in the order of the invisible spirit world,
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 3: and some of them are friends, some of them are foes,
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 3: and some of them are custodians of places above and below.
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's funny that if you look at the
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 1: early engagement with the Christians and the Northern European Pagans,
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 1: it wasn't the gods they worried about. I mean, they
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 1: were happy to have been there.
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 8: There.
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 1: There are still state churches that have images of foreign
• 1:33:58
  Speaker 1: and Odin and Jesus fighting Ragnarok, you know, like they're
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 1: okay with with with that at some level. The thing
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 1: that seemed to have worried that early Christians is the
• 1:34:07
  Speaker 1: concept of fate, you know, and the old English poem
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 1: the Wanderer right weird bifool rat, you know, like fate
• 1:34:14
  Speaker 1: is is ineescapable. That it was the concept of fate
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 1: they hated. And this is true astrology as well, because
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 1: Christianity relies on the idea that you can choose for
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 1: your own free will to accept the grace of God
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 1: and therefore relieve yourself with sin, and the concept of
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 1: fate early on, this was what the Christians worried about. There,
• 1:34:34
  Speaker 1: the idea that there, you know, look, you want to
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 1: still worship Odin and go to Valhalla and whatever. Sure, fine, right,
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 1: you know, it's heaven like whatever. But it was fate
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 1: that really really troubled them. And this concept of weird,
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 1: which is where we get the modern word weird from. Right.
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 1: Weird is the old English word for fate. They hated
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 1: this concept because it mucked around with their theology. So
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 1: it's interesting that again the Christians early Christmas, at least,
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 1: one of the things that will lob them for is
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 1: they were able to pick their battles in a way
• 1:35:05
  Speaker 1: that you know, it is shocking that they would be like, yeah, sure,
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 1: like Jesus and Serapis are the same thing. Yeah, that's
• 1:35:15
  Speaker 1: okay for now. It really shows you they're playing the
• 1:35:17
  Speaker 1: long game in terms of the syncretistic game. They were like,
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 1: we'll play this at first. And again, like I said,
• 1:35:25
  Speaker 1: you can go to state churches still in Norway and
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 1: Sweden and still see images of of like a clear Jesus,
• 1:35:32
  Speaker 1: right he has like holes in his hands and crown thorns,
• 1:35:34
  Speaker 1: and he's like right there with like you know, with
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 1: the four with his hammer, fighting finery or whatever.
• 1:35:41
  Speaker 3: By the Viking age, there are Christians and Pagans that
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 3: were kind of on the same page about some of
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 3: the Viking activity. To be a long time to realize
• 1:35:49
  Speaker 3: that too.
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 1: This is a thing that again again that yeah, it's
• 1:35:55
  Speaker 1: funny I have a friend of mine who's a ex
• 1:35:57
  Speaker 1: Catholic now pagan, and she said had to get away
• 1:36:00
  Speaker 1: from Catholicism in order to become pagan. And you know,
• 1:36:03
  Speaker 1: me and my other Jewish friend who's also you know,
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 1: come from the Orthodox world, we're like, you had to
• 1:36:07
  Speaker 1: leave Catholicism to get away from paganism. As far as
• 1:36:10
  Speaker 1: we can tell, you're on the same team. Like have
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 1: you been in a church? Like you know, it's funny
• 1:36:20
  Speaker 1: because again coming from you know, like a very anaconic tradition,
• 1:36:23
  Speaker 1: like my tradition, we were like, we don't depict anything.
• 1:36:26
  Speaker 1: I'm like like, I don't know, I don't know. How
• 1:36:29
  Speaker 1: did did you just go? Like take a couple of
• 1:36:31
  Speaker 1: steps back and look at the church you're in, like
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 1: good so goods again, Like the kind of concepts are
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 1: really they they're they can be humorous in a way
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 1: that one person's paganism is another person's. Yeah, And of
• 1:36:47
  Speaker 1: course you go ask a Catholic, They're like, no, God, no,
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 1: we we broke with the Pagans. We were the great,
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 1: we conquered the Pagans. And you know, the Jews are
• 1:36:55
  Speaker 1: sitting back there going like uh huh, Like did you
• 1:37:02
  Speaker 1: beat them by becoming what happened there, like you know,
• 1:37:05
  Speaker 1: so it's it's it's sort of the funny, you know. Again,
• 1:37:08
  Speaker 1: I go into a Gailtic church in Ireland and I
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 1: see all the network and all of the other stuff
• 1:37:11
  Speaker 1: and the William script. I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'm like
• 1:37:17
  Speaker 1: the success of Christianity was was was at least in
• 1:37:20
  Speaker 1: really in many ways it's ability to compromise and compromising
• 1:37:24
  Speaker 1: things that the Christians would never say they will compromise on.
• 1:37:28
  Speaker 8: Thing really is where like all of these things intersect,
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 8: because you know, it's that place where some people can
• 1:37:37
  Speaker 8: rationalize necessity and some people can't. Write. I did want
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 8: to ask based off of your metaphysical view on like
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 8: first glance or first thought about that, I would think
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 8: that would be like quite opposite to Gnosticism. I don't
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 8: know much about it, you know, and I just wondered
• 1:37:57
  Speaker 8: if you could speak on that because I think it's
• 1:38:00
  Speaker 8: really interesting.
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I think the Gnostics and the Christians are very
• 1:38:03
  Speaker 1: opposed to this concept of fate. They really harmonony is there.
• 1:38:07
  Speaker 1: They don't like this concept. Some until Calvin that this
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 1: becomes the thing that Christianity deals with. But no like,
• 1:38:13
  Speaker 1: it's very important that that, since John Phlopinus, the creation
• 1:38:19
  Speaker 1: comes out of nothing, that free will is given, and
• 1:38:21
  Speaker 1: that that contingency rules reality. And this makes Christians a
• 1:38:27
  Speaker 1: very nervous people. I mean, anxiety is like, I mean,
• 1:38:31
  Speaker 1: there's you know, you look at the ancient Greek world
• 1:38:34
  Speaker 1: and there's no evidence of people being anxious or something.
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 1: It seems a very particularly Christian kind of problem because
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 1: there's a world's contingent that the world could always be
• 1:38:42
  Speaker 1: otherwise than it is. And the Gnostics were certainly that way,
• 1:38:46
  Speaker 1: and the Christians were that way, and and but you know,
• 1:38:52
  Speaker 1: if the world's just the way that it is, then
• 1:38:54
  Speaker 1: why be anxious about it? It seems like I again,
• 1:38:58
  Speaker 1: even even with astrology world, you look at the defenses
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 1: of astrology, the psychological defenses of astrology, even by the Stoics,
• 1:39:05
  Speaker 1: the Stokes are big advocates of belief in astrology. Paniteus Posidonius, uh,
• 1:39:10
  Speaker 1: they were all big into astrology, and part of their
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 1: defense of astrology was if you can see what's coming,
• 1:39:18
  Speaker 1: then you can steal yourself for what's about to happen.
• 1:39:22
  Speaker 1: If you know your city's gonna be invaded, because you
• 1:39:24
  Speaker 1: know you're there's a you know whatever, Saturn's in this
• 1:39:27
  Speaker 1: and areas in this and oh God where you know
• 1:39:29
  Speaker 1: the plague is coming, you know, Jupiter Jupiter, such and
• 1:39:33
  Speaker 1: such conversions happening. Something big is gonna happen. Like you
• 1:39:35
  Speaker 1: can be like, okay, I know what's telling, the same
• 1:39:37
  Speaker 1: way that you can like the weather, tomorrow's raining, you
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 1: can make sure to bring your umbrella. See, you can't
• 1:39:41
  Speaker 1: get rained on the Stoics are like astrology is like that,
• 1:39:43
  Speaker 1: we can predict what's about to happen, at least vaguely,
• 1:39:47
  Speaker 1: and we can like make sure that we are okay
• 1:39:49
  Speaker 1: when it happens. So it's about managing fate, right, Fate
• 1:39:54
  Speaker 1: is still coming, but it was about managing it in
• 1:39:56
  Speaker 1: a way that the Christians are like, no, nothing is faded,
• 1:39:59
  Speaker 1: like you can pray today and God will change the
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 1: weather like God is sovereign. Nothing is written down. Everything
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 1: is being developed. And of course even the radical version
• 1:40:12
  Speaker 1: of that is in Islam, and Islam adopts an even
• 1:40:15
  Speaker 1: more radical version of this called occasionalism, where every single
• 1:40:19
  Speaker 1: moment of creation is being generated spontaneously by God, like
• 1:40:24
  Speaker 1: in the way that a film right every single frame
• 1:40:26
  Speaker 1: of a film, you move the film fast enough, it
• 1:40:28
  Speaker 1: all we all, it all looks like we're you know,
• 1:40:31
  Speaker 1: it looks like time is continuous. But in Islam they
• 1:40:34
  Speaker 1: take that even further with occasional limits. Say, know, every
• 1:40:36
  Speaker 1: single moment is because of the mercy of Allah, like
• 1:40:40
  Speaker 1: just a past moment ago, God could have hit pause
• 1:40:43
  Speaker 1: and it have been billions of years of pause we've
• 1:40:45
  Speaker 1: never known. And this is the radical sovereignty that's that's
• 1:40:51
  Speaker 1: adopted theologically by by Christianity and in Islam, and is
• 1:40:56
  Speaker 1: bequeathed to them in some ways by by Judaism. But no,
• 1:40:59
  Speaker 1: for the opinions, the dealing with dealing with fate, that
• 1:41:05
  Speaker 1: was the thing Mane.
• 1:41:07
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I think like the personal responsibility as well, Like
• 1:41:11
  Speaker 6: being a Buddhist, there's like, you know, there's the idea
• 1:41:13
  Speaker 6: that you are, you have this life, but it's your
• 1:41:16
  Speaker 6: karma relationship to things, and when you make a choice
• 1:41:20
  Speaker 6: right now, it does change your relationship to your future
• 1:41:23
  Speaker 6: karma situation.
• 1:41:24
  Speaker 7: You know.
• 1:41:24
  Speaker 4: So there's the idea that you can change your karma.
• 1:41:26
  Speaker 6: But from an astrologer, it's like, yeah, you have your fate,
• 1:41:29
  Speaker 6: but you can change the octave at which you see
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 6: things right.
• 1:41:32
  Speaker 4: So it's like, yes, you have the situation that is happening,
• 1:41:35
  Speaker 4: but if you do.
• 1:41:36
  Speaker 6: Enough prayer or enough devotional practice, this is what I believe,
• 1:41:40
  Speaker 6: is that you can actually have a different response to
• 1:41:43
  Speaker 6: that thing versus it being so harshly negative, you know.
• 1:41:46
  Speaker 6: So I think it's interesting the more personal responsibility and
• 1:41:50
  Speaker 6: sovereignty that a person has for their own existence, I
• 1:41:53
  Speaker 6: think the better off people are. And I think sometimes
• 1:41:55
  Speaker 6: religions with too many rules tend to create this atmosphere
• 1:41:59
  Speaker 6: that like, just follow the rules, you'll be fine, you know,
• 1:42:02
  Speaker 6: because as an astrologer, I didn't even know that actually
• 1:42:04
  Speaker 6: Christians didn't like astrology because I grew up Catholic and
• 1:42:06
  Speaker 6: I didn't really know there was a thing. But I've
• 1:42:08
  Speaker 6: had such crazy response as being an astrologer, and they
• 1:42:12
  Speaker 6: act like I'm like the devil, and I'm like, what
• 1:42:14
  Speaker 6: is this?
• 1:42:15
  Speaker 4: Why is this happening?
• 1:42:17
  Speaker 6: You know, Like clearly I'm a light being, you know,
• 1:42:19
  Speaker 6: I'm not a dark person like and don't have a
• 1:42:21
  Speaker 6: dark energy in my being, you know. And so it's
• 1:42:24
  Speaker 6: like I just feel, yeah, there's something interesting there in
• 1:42:27
  Speaker 6: the Christian religion as far as like how they view
• 1:42:31
  Speaker 6: people who try to.
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 4: Just understand fate or understand their you know their path.
• 1:42:36
  Speaker 1: Right Christianity, the Christianity, the way that they squared the
• 1:42:40
  Speaker 1: circle was is that the stars are signs of the
• 1:42:44
  Speaker 1: will of God, but they're not determinations of the will
• 1:42:47
  Speaker 1: of God. So that is to say, God is showing
• 1:42:51
  Speaker 1: you what could happen, not what's going to happen. And
• 1:42:56
  Speaker 1: so this is why elected astrology is forbidden by Christianity.
• 1:43:02
  Speaker 1: That so the idea is that you can't tell someone
• 1:43:05
  Speaker 1: what's going to happen because you don't know, but you
• 1:43:08
  Speaker 1: can say, like you know in the same way that
• 1:43:10
  Speaker 1: you can look down that way and say there's an
• 1:43:12
  Speaker 1: army coming, right, like you can look at the story
• 1:43:16
  Speaker 1: and say this is what's coming. But the army could
• 1:43:18
  Speaker 1: go the other way with the and again also again
• 1:43:23
  Speaker 1: people forget that astrology is only now esoteric. It was
• 1:43:26
  Speaker 1: taught in medieval universities. You had to take if you
• 1:43:29
  Speaker 1: were a doctor, you had to take classes in astrology.
• 1:43:32
  Speaker 1: This was not esoteric at all. Like it was just
• 1:43:35
  Speaker 1: like if you wanted to become a physician, you had
• 1:43:37
  Speaker 1: to be able to do the elective astrology determined when
• 1:43:41
  Speaker 1: it was optimal to do blood letting. So this wasn't
• 1:43:45
  Speaker 1: even a it wasn't esoteric at all. I mean, it
• 1:43:48
  Speaker 1: was like mandated by the university system.
• 1:43:51
  Speaker 2: It was part of the curriculum. Unfortunately, we're almost like
• 1:43:55
  Speaker 2: two hours here and we do have to this conversation
• 1:43:58
  Speaker 2: will have to end at some point. So, uh, this
• 1:44:01
  Speaker 2: is a great conversation justin I really thought it was wisdom.
• 1:44:03
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for coming on.
• 1:44:04
  Speaker 1: Really of course, thanks for having me on. I mean again,
• 1:44:06
  Speaker 1: it's always like great to be able to to chat
• 1:44:10
  Speaker 1: with folks, you know, coming from a range of traditions,
• 1:44:12
  Speaker 1: and just like again, if I am giving what little
• 1:44:15
  Speaker 1: I can contribute and hopefully it's something intelligent and something worthwhile,
• 1:44:19
  Speaker 1: and uh, I'm glad to be able to have a conversation.
• 1:44:23
  Speaker 1: So it's uh, it's it's uh, it's been an honor.
• 1:44:26
  Speaker 2: Thank you, of course, thank you. Uh, if you want
• 1:44:29
  Speaker 2: to plug you know, you YouTube or anything else you
• 1:44:31
  Speaker 2: want to promote, I know you might have some uh
• 1:44:33
  Speaker 2: speaking things coming up, maybe you want to promote that.
• 1:44:36
  Speaker 1: Do I even have anything speaking things? I hope I don't.
• 1:44:38
  Speaker 1: Uh yeah, so no, I don't think I have anything
• 1:44:41
  Speaker 1: specific coming up. Maybe I do, Maybe I don't know,
• 1:44:43
  Speaker 1: if folks want to follow my work, uh you know,
• 1:44:45
  Speaker 1: I'm over it as a tika on YouTube. If you
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 1: want to get some cool old books, you can check
• 1:44:50
  Speaker 1: out my bookstore. But you know, uh, teaching this class
• 1:44:54
  Speaker 1: on middle Platonism, which I think is a part of
• 1:44:57
  Speaker 1: philosophy that doesn't get a lot of coverage, and I'm
• 1:45:00
  Speaker 1: putting those out and so you know, part of my
• 1:45:03
  Speaker 1: my maybe irrational, maybe idealistic and maybe maybe naive dedication
• 1:45:09
  Speaker 1: to open access university level educational material and uh you know,
• 1:45:15
  Speaker 1: so I'm like, I'm just yeah, I'm doing this whole
• 1:45:17
  Speaker 1: course on middle Platonism, which will eventually come to touch
• 1:45:20
  Speaker 1: on copics like fate and astrology. And you know, Christopher
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 1: Brennan some back there somewhere smiling, so uh yeah, I'm
• 1:45:28
  Speaker 1: working on that. But otherwise it's just yeah, I'm just
• 1:45:30
  Speaker 1: said as a ka, it's kind of my that's my
• 1:45:32
  Speaker 1: that's my gig.
• 1:45:33
  Speaker 2: Awesome, Thank you again so much. I really appreciate having
• 1:45:36
  Speaker 2: you on. It was an amazing chat. It's while to
• 1:45:38
  Speaker 2: actually like see you on the show. Considering how I've
• 1:45:41
  Speaker 2: known like your show and everything and watched it and
• 1:45:44
  Speaker 2: learn from it. It's pretty wild. And thank you everybody
• 1:45:47
  Speaker 2: also on the show for joining me. I'm not going
• 1:45:49
  Speaker 2: to go and spend the time and go, you know,
• 1:45:51
  Speaker 2: through the whole thing, but i appreciate you all making
• 1:45:53
  Speaker 2: it and everybody in the chat that's what's up as well.
• 1:45:56
  Speaker 2: I appreciate everybody making it and uh, everybody putting in
• 1:46:00
  Speaker 2: I guess their two cents in their comments. Thank you
• 1:46:02
  Speaker 2: all for that and until the next one, everybody be
• 1:46:06
  Speaker 2: well later