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The Roles We Never Chose · 8 Years To Live

• speaker-0: Every person has a story. Some shape us, some break us, and some help us heal. Join Sisters Kim and Bibi as they explore mental health, trauma, relationships, and personal growth through honest conversations, lived experiences, and professional insights. Because understanding your story can change the way you live it. This is Eight Years to Live. speaker-1: I had gone into a coma. speaker-0: I just say Maria Shriver. speaker-1: Yes, yes. Why do we have so many nicknames for each other? speaker-0: Good question. Because medical trauma is one of the most under-recognized forms of trauma. speaker-1: Who are you gonna talk to when I die? speaker-0: He's already telling you you've got eight years left. Good morning. speaker-1: It's morning here too. Bright and early. Eight thirty in Pocatello, Idaho. speaker-0: I was just gonna say W W W speaker-1: I'm in my house in Pocatello. I'm by myself. Well, I'm with you and Colin. Colin's in the background. And I'm having my latte and I'm recording a podcast. WWW speaker-0: I'm also having my latte and ⁓ I'm at home. I'm recording a podcast with Jojo and Colin in the background in my house. I don't know if I already said that. speaker-1: In Las Vegas, speaker-0: That's right. You know what I was thinking about the other day? ⁓ and I think we were kind of talking about it, but it just made me start going down a rabbit hole about birth order. And I know that we've said like Jojo's the youngest, you're the favorite. And I started just kind of paying attention. I have this client who she's doing neurofeedback for ADHD and she brought her three kids in. ⁓ and so I just was observing as I do. And the oldest seemed Kind of quieter. The middle one was more rambunctious. He was asking me a lot of questions, asking if I wanted to play. And then the youngest one was just kind of all over the place. And I thought, I wonder if there is something to this. And then I started analyzing our family, of course, and I thought, is this how it played out? Because the older one, like I almost thought he was sleepy. I don't know if that's just quieter. And so speaker-1: He out of the speaker-0: I thought Mel, who's the oldest in our family, he was also quieter, and then I was louder and then you the youngest were speaker-1: All over the place. Still am. That's hilarious. I've actually been somebody told me that years ago. They said, ⁓ you must be the youngest. I thought, Do I give youngest sibling vibes? Like that kind of doesn't make me feel good because I imagine like self in or what is it? Self entitled or entitled? I don't know what the word is, but you know what I mean. Like I expect things to be handed over to me. And she said, No, actually speaker-0: you come up with that? Like how did you think that, you know, that things had been handled? What was it why why that thought? speaker-1: Because I think that about youngest siblings, like, ⁓ they expect everything to be handed to them. They are spoiled, which I think that's a typical thought for youngest. Like they the oldest ones have it hard. They're like the parents, guinea pigs. Then the youngest ones, it's like, you can do whatever you want, you can go anywhere you want. But what this person meant, she said, excuse me, I have a frog in my throat this morning. She said the youngest siblings are usually the most playful. She said they're playful, they joke, they're easygoing. I thought, wow, that's not typically what I hear. I thought that's pretty observant. So that's funny, like all over the place. Yeah, because I'm I can be I'm mostly goofy, I would say. I can be serious, but it's it's different. I'm a little bit more all over the place than serious. speaker-0: Yes. And I it just made me think, like, is there science behind this? Does temperament play into it? Does like what's going on in the family? Like, what does that look like? And is there a pattern? I'm always looking for patterns. And I thought, then culture, like how does culture play into it? Are culture Mexican or and then culture in America? What does that look like? And I think we said that in the last episode where Or maybe you and I were just talking about it, where typically the first one is the responsible one, you know, the go-getter. ⁓ and I can kind of see that for most firstborns where they're surrounded by adults for the first few years in their lives, typically, you know, if there's two years in between kids or whatever. But that really wasn't the case for us, would you think? Or how did you see that? speaker-1: As far as like being surrounded by adults? speaker-0: W as far as like the first one being, you know, the go getter or how come speaker-1: Mm-hmm. I would say in our family, like you're saying, culture plays a part and just yeah, the age order. So I think like our brother, because he was the firstborn and a boy, I think that made a difference. I would say he was like more sleepy, like you said. He would just kind of do as he was told. And I think with you, you were almost like the firstborn where you were the responsible one. I think our parents I don't know if they expected perfection, but I think parents in general with the firstborn have very high standards. Like, ⁓ my kid is gonna do this. My kid's gonna be an athlete. My kid's gonna place ⁓ or get good grades. Where I think that was more you than our actual oldest sibling because he's a boy and he got different privileges. But also got maybe harsher punishments. So I think with you that I see that playing out where you're you were always like the go getter. You got good grades, you did play sports, and you kind of set the bar versus our brother setting the bar. Does that make sense? Does that answer your question? speaker-0: Yes, and I'm just playing it out in my head as you're describing it, playing it out how was it when we were kids? Why was I the one that set the bar? And I think too, yes, firstborn in a Mexican family and male, all the privileges. He's the king, the favored immediately, especially by the mom. And I also think, I set the bar because then there was three girls after me. Mm-hmm. So he may have been the one that had the privileges and typically they have the authority, like the male sons have the authority, but because he was quieter or his temperament I think played a role in it and my temperament is not quiet. speaker-1: Mm-hmm. Yeah, so if he would have had your temperament, he maybe would have had the expectations of us to also treat him like a king, but he didn't because he was so maybe mild mannered. speaker-0: Yeah. And like even as we're talking, like he's mild mannered, I'm more of the go-getter, it makes me think of the color code. And ⁓ so it's colorcode.com and I wanted to do the color code on the podcast to see to just to go through the questions again and just go through the different temperaments and personalities. But so according to the color code code, there's four colors which speaker-1: ⁓ speaker-0: includes kind of four temperaments. It's kind of like the Enneagram but simplified. So it's white, red, yellow, and blue. He's white w and you're white. Okay, so tell me about the white temperament according to the color code, do you remember? speaker-1: Mm-hmm. Kind of, yeah, I I would also ⁓ equate that with like ⁓ being phlegmatic. So there's also words that go with them like choleric, phlegmatic, sanguine, and I don't remember the fourth. So each word goes with a different color. White, phlegmatic, which sometimes green is used for that too. Mm-hmm. They are we are pretty mild mannered. Go with the flow, I would say very type B personality, not type A. Like things do not have to be in order. I usually am, I would say, attracted to type A's because I'm so type B. Nothing's in order. I'm all over the place. But we're very, I would say slow to speak or just reserved. A lot of internal processing. I feel like we don't get shaken easily and I also feel like we dig our heels in quite a bit. So there's a lot of pros, a lot of cons, like with any personality. So I would say it's like meh, if someone hurts us, it's meh ⁓ until it's like a big deal. Next thing you know, our heels are digging in and we are starting to boil over. I would say that's kind of Whereas like ⁓ melancholic, which would be blue, they're b emotional in every way. Every emotion is heightened. Where me, my emotions don't typically get stirred easily. And then choleric is that red? Is that what you are? I think choleric. That's like ⁓ I would say fire hydrant. Like any little spark of anything. Fire hydrant, you know. Which we can also yes, there's different like you can think of it in so many different ways. Bodies of water. So our mine is very like a stream, very flowy. So that was my our brother and I. And I don't know if our other siblings, but for sure he and I. Extreme. Yes. speaker-0: Yes. And I think too like every color has a motive and so white, your motive is peace. And so that's what drives you. And so y that's why you don't want to rock the boat, because then it's gonna disturb the peace. And then ⁓ yellow, I don't know what the yellow term is according to sanguine. Okay. So yell ⁓ yellow or sanguine, their core core motive is fun. Red, choleric, our core motive is power. Power as in How can I get the power to get from A to B? And then the blue, which is what did you say the speaker-1: Melancholic. Melan or melancholy. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. So their core connection or core motivation is connection. So driven by emotion. And so I think that also played into like birth order and his response to the world and my response to the world. And I think that's why you and I kind of have connected in the way that we have, because we are polar opposites. I'm speaker-1: Mm-hmm. speaker-0: going, getting us from A to B and you wanna just go like, sure, I'll go do whatever and ⁓ yeah, I think that's huge in that in birth order. speaker-1: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I agree. And then with maybe I don't know if other siblings necessarily, but with other people, they don't just want to go with the flow. They have their own plan, which makes sense. But I agree, that's why you and I do get along so well. Because you maybe are used to or it's natural for you to call the shots. And for me, I'm used to it's natural for me to follow the shots. Do this, let's do it. And I will I know I'm I said earlier I'm so white or phlegmatic. I'm a lot of sanguine, a lot of like fun. So you call the shots. If it's fun, I'm in. If it's emotional, ⁓ I don't know. So it's Yes, if it's you because you're yes, your other half is sanguine. So you call the shots and wanna have fun. Give tell me what to do and let's have fun. There's no better pair for me. speaker-0: Yes. I totally agree. A and I think that just really plays into how you became the favorite, let's say. Because well and well that's interesting because the two whites are the favorites of Ma, our mother. speaker-1: You know why? Because she is also choleric. She calls the shots and we're like Okay. Our dad, he calls the shots. Okay. May not be fun, but we're being told what to do. We're just gonna follow suit. We wanna keep the peace? We'll keep the peace. L don't rock the boat. That's I d don't know if I had put that together. speaker-0: No, and something else is just coming to mind right now, Reds like to be challenged. And so when we're not challenged and someone is just like they don't have leadership qualities and they're supposed to be a leader, like it drives us nuts. It's like, okay, if you're not gonna be a leader, step aside, I'll take over, I'll be the leader. I don't always wanna be the leader, but if there's no leadership, then I'll take over. And I think that's why our dad didn't Like he expected his son to have leadership leadership qualities, I think. speaker-1: Right. Did speaker-0: And then when he wasn't, he didn't like our father didn't like that. And so he saw the leadership qualities in me and just kind of fed that. And so I think that part of me and birth order really fueled who I became and it fueled who you became too. speaker-1: Nature and nurture. In our nature. Dot dot dot. With the nurture. Dot dot dot. And here we are. speaker-0: Yes. And I think it doesn't have to define us. I mean, yes, I am a very passionate person and I naturally do want to take over. I don't feel that I have to. So but then it was just fed or, you know, it was brought to life even more with the order that I was in and that you were in, because me being second born and then having three siblings later, my parents used me, go tell them what to do. And then that's how like I became parentified. Isn't that interesting? Yeah. speaker-1: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. And I'm sure people can relate with that. With either being the oldest, the youngest, or the culture, or even like so it was our brother and you about two years apart. Five year gap. And then our sister, two years apart, other sister two years apart, me. So even that, like, there was a different dynamic because it was almost like our parents had two kids and that was a family. And then five years later they had three kids and that was a family. So even though we were all under the same roof, under the same parents, it looked so different because of how ⁓ my gosh, I'm thinking of something else. The three youngest So the oldest of us three I would also say is phlegmatic, like or partially phlegmatic, where she also didn't seem like the oldest of the three. It was our next sibling because she is choleric, she seemed like the oldest of us three. Mm. So it's almost like the same thing happened twice with the first set of kids and with the second set of kids. speaker-0: ⁓ my gosh. speaker-1: That's crazy. speaker-0: That is crazy. That's so crazy. Because then I think also the second set of the family, the first one of the second, she's also the middle child. So it's almost like that middle child got lost and that's you know what they say with the middle child. It's like, ⁓ they're not seen, they're forgotten and so sh it was almost like a dual role. She was a middle child, but she was also kind of the oldest, but not. And so then the second one, who's also a middle child of the three, but of the five. ⁓ my gosh. speaker-1: I know. Yes. Yes. Exactly. Things I hadn't like I had thought about, but not really. I've always thought that there's a separation. Yeah. Like we've said. The two oldest, the three youngest. But not to the similar like paralleling them. I didn't realize it was a whole thing. And it might have to do with birth order in that. Yeah, all of the things. I don't even have the words. speaker-0: Right. too. Yes. All the things. I think it's so layered and so complex that ⁓ yes, there could be a pattern and there could also not be a pattern. I don't know, it's crazy. But it just brings me back to then now you're you are the youngest of all of us, whether we're the first family or you know, the first set of kids, the second set of kids, you're still the youngest. And so what was it like to be the youngest? speaker-1: Mm. ⁓ I would say I had a lot of traditional things like as far as being the youngest, like the attention, the special treatment, maybe. And that's kind of that's complicated because of what we talked about in the previous episode. Because I was so sick and so deathly ill, but I'm I'm sure that played a huge part. But I do think like If you asked any one of our siblings, it would be, ⁓ yeah, BB's always gotten more attention. ⁓ more of a desire, I guess. Like our mom will ask about me. I would say probably more than anyone. Where's Bibi? What's Bibi doing? Why isn't BB here? Currently. Yeah. Or if she wants someone to do something with, I would say typically it would be me. So I think that I would say that was and is what it's been like to be the youngest in our family. I would also say so that I would say was our parents and your guys' perspective. My perspective, I guess, I don't I don't really know. Like what was it like to be the youngest? Mm-hmm. Mm. I okay. So I would say part of it would be ⁓ having a lot of guilt. Like or like survivor's guilt and maybe guilt because I realized and acknowledged that I was getting things that you guys weren't. So I would say that for sure has been a thing. Like, shoot, that's too bad that we're all in the same room and our mom is saying, ⁓ why don't you guys do this like BB? or BB just started doing this. BB just bought this makeup. Baby j you know, and I'm like, ⁓ my gosh, like this is uncomfy. I don't wanna be the person that everyone's being compared to. So that I would say that's I'm sure people can relate with that if they're the youngest. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Was it always like that? Because I don't remember it being like that before you got sick, but I was so in my head at that time prior to you getting sick. Like I was just so isol I isolated myself. So I wonder did you feel the guilt or did you get special treatment prior to you getting sick? speaker-1: That's a good question. I would say yes. Yes. Because I'm just thinking of like I was always the one sitting on our mom's lap. I was like when everyone else started going to school and I was at home, I would get I would get sometimes your guys' things. Like if I said, ⁓ I like this notebook. Our mama would be like, You can have it, it's yours. I'd be like, But it says that it's my sister's. That's okay, we'll just scratch that out and write your name on it. So I would definitely like I would say yes, I did get special treatment. I think because I was the last, she wanted to cling on to me being the baby. I think it looked different once I got sick. And ⁓ there is a big part of my childhood that I would say I don't really remember. Because it was still in competition to being treated like we're gonna keep you alive. Like is that favor or is that just desperation? Mm-hmm. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. I do remember the notebook thing. Coming home and finding my notebook and you claiming that it was yours. I'm like, this is not yours. This is mine and you would open it and show it to me. It's got my name on it. speaker-1: Yes, which I think of course any sibling would be upset at me, like why would you steal my stuff? I don't know. Our mom said I could, or she said I could have it. And I'm sure that's confusing to both children. Like, why are you taking my stuff? I'm not taking it. It's being handed to me. Just like the coat. Exactly. speaker-0: Exactly. I'm not bitter, but you're the one that got the coat. Exactly. speaker-1: Exactly. Yes. speaker-0: ⁓ my gosh. ⁓ what was I gonna say? I got distracted with the coat picturing the the picture that I have of you on my phone is the contact of you wearing a a colorful coat. No, ⁓ and so what was it like seeing because you and I don't know if you remember this, but being the youngest and then looking up because I can I know speaker-1: Mm. speaker-0: looking down, yes, everything that you said, I saw that. You know, I saw you getting all the privileges. Before you got sick, I was like, What's wrong with me? Why am I not getting the privileges? But then after you got sick, it's like, ⁓ forget about you. We need to keep her alive. So it was like two different childhoods maybe? I don't know childhoods. But two different versions. So I think often when people say my brother and I were so different and we were all raised in the same house. Well now we know it's very layered and then for you it's even double layered because you had two different lives from zero to eleven and then eleven and on. And so those were just so completely different, really, but similar. I guess motive was different. speaker-1: ⁓ yes. Yes. Yep. I'm just thinking about like being favored. ⁓ Like I remember before eleven I I didn't get put in sports. I didn't go to games. Like I that just wasn't something that happened for whatever reason. Maybe I wasn't interested. I have no idea. But I remember after getting sick. For many reasons, this is funny and ridiculous to me. I was put like on a basketball team. I I can't walk, I'm in a wheelchair. I can't eat. I have a feeding tube. I can't stand. Like there's all these things I can't do. But I think because my lifespan seemed so short, our parents, or maybe just our mom, was desperate to get me into something fun or into some sort of community that she put me on this basketball team with my friends and they would just say ⁓ you can just be like our cheerleader slash mascot and to me that was like this is so awkward like I'm on the sidelines barely alive so to me that's is that special treatment I'm sure like some of our siblings were like I'm not on any sports team And yet here they are doing all these things for this our youngest child. And to me, I didn't even like it. I didn't ask for it. Or going to games. I remember I went to like a softball game. And our mom wheeled me to the game like on an old school wheelchair, not like a motorized, like an old school wheelchair. I have like blankets, again, feeding tube, oxygen. I'm bald, I have like a scarf around my head. But she's so desperate for me to be maybe enjoying life or just getting the last tidbits of life that I can get. In my mind, I'm like, that's what's happening. From another person's perspective, I'm sure they're like, What about the rest of the kids? Like they are alive and they are healthy and they're just sitting at home. Meanwhile, this kid's getting everything and anything. Which both can are true, but that would be hard to understand. If I'm eleven and we have a sibling that's thirteen and fifteen, and you're twenty, and our brother's twenty two, like those are all major ages to where you're still being so affected by what you're being taught. Not just like what you're learning, I guess, passively, but intentionally, like this is what you're learning, this is what love looks like. This is what you deserve. This is you know, so as we get older, like, okay, now me, what is it I deserve? What is it I put into the world when things have been done for me out of necessity, obligation, but also just because I didn't really have a voice. I couldn't really think because I had had strokes. Now what do I want? I don't know. And now I'm you know, I meet people, I'm like, ⁓ they'll do it. Of course. Of course I think they'll do it. Because I can't do it or I shouldn't do it. What if I get hurt? What if I whatever? And it that's taken a long time to be like, ⁓ I can make an effort. I can try. Because I've also I don't know if we've even said, but I've also had back surgery. So the physical part of it, like, no no no, BB can't do that. She'll hurt her back. I don't even know if that's true. Like, thank you for being considerate. But I would like to try. So there's there's a lot there. A lot. I know. speaker-0: Hot dog. Yes, so much. I should have been writing down because you said so many good things. Something that you said is like that inner voice told you, I can't do it. Or at least and you said I didn't even know that I could or if I could. That's it and that's birth order, that's what's happened to you medically, everything's been done for you as the baby. And because you got sick and then now growing up even that kinda played into who you who you were attracted to. How he shows up in your relationship, how he wants to do everything for you because he's firstborn. speaker-1: Totally. Yes. ⁓ Yes, exactly. I think about that often. Like, of course I'm married to Reuben. Like obviously we know I love Ruben. And we know that he is a godsend. Mm-hmm. And at the same time, I know that I was attracted to him because he does he's a leader. Like he does things and he's a caretaker. All the things that I'm used to. That's in his nature. So I think in order for us to have like a healthy dynamic, we both have to, I don't know, sacrifice or just kind of let down our old nature and say, Yes, of course I want to take care of you. At the same time, you also need to be doing X, Y, and Z. And to me, I'm like, ⁓ my gosh, you're right. Like, I do need to be doing X, Y, and Z. And I he doesn't ask it often, but when he does, I'm like, he's serious. I know I know he means business. So just that natural natural thing, like, yes, do everything for me. But also let me try this. Okay. So that's a hard balance for him too. Like she does want help. She doesn't want help. She can, she can't. I don't know. I'm still figuring it out too. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. ⁓ my gosh, yes. And that really speaks into like people that say, well, this is just who I am. This is how I am. I can't change. But for the both of you to be able to realize, yes, our nervous systems, let's say, were wired this way, that doesn't mean that's who I am at my core. And that doesn't even mean that's my personality or I can't change this. But you wanting to grow as a person and realizing Okay, this is what I was told growing up for multiple reasons, in different scenarios, so layered and fighting against that and saying and I also want to see what's on the other side of that. speaker-1: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Realizing there's another side of that. I think that was step one. Yes. speaker-0: That's so awesome. Yes. S and so like I think how did you realize that you had that inner voice in you saying that you can't do something? Like did you hear the inner voice? Did you feel the inner voice? What was that like? speaker-1: Mm. I would say I felt it. I just was always, I would say, pretty with my back specifically, cautious. With everything else, I don't think I've ever been too cautious. I think I just my inner voice would say, and maybe I did hear it, you can't do that. And that can be translated in so many different ways for everybody. And I think because of our abusive past, mine was you can't do that because you're not capable. Not because you can't do that, like, be careful. You can't do that. You had strokes. You're dumb. You you know, you can't think about that. You can't figure it out. So, but then with my back, I would say that was more Like initially it would hurt to do anything. So I thought I I can't do that. And then when I would try, like when I thought, I just need to try, I would go to an extreme. I would move furniture, I would do all the things, and then I couldn't move for the next week. Like, okay, there's gotta be a balance. And I think just doing it and learning the hard way is probably how it started to really be like solidified in my mind, like I can't do that. No in between. No, maybe try something small. And so I think once I did figure out and still currently figuring out, ⁓ maybe I can. Maybe I can do that. And maybe I can tell Ruben like, Hey, can I try? And if I can't, you'll be here to help me. And that I would say has been my motto in life in general. Let me try. If I can't, I can ask for help. If I can't, I can have support. So just I would say a lot of different voices, maybe not a lot, maybe two. Maybe mom and dad. You know, saying you can't do this because you're dumb. I would say that was our dad. You know, you can't figure this out. Meanwhile, in my mind, I would say with our mom, you can't do this. Like you shouldn't do this. You're gonna get hurt. So both in my mind, I can't shouldn't, it just kinda starts to get fuzzy. Like why can't I do it? I don't know, but I can't. I can't even try. And then ⁓ yeah, yes I can. So just multiple voices for sure. speaker-0: And have you always been aware of them or did it did you s think, okay, I'm gonna go into my rich inner world, as you call it, and see what's happening inside? Like were you intentional about it? About hearing those voices, or were you did you did it just like come to you? speaker-1: ⁓ I think it came to me I started listening to a podcast ⁓ called Being Well. And I would say, ⁓ yeah, such such a good podcast. I would say during when I started to listen to that, it did talk a lot about like inner monologue, what we say to ourselves, where does the voice originate? And so at that point I started to realize like, ⁓ this isn't my own voice, like This is an adult's voice reminding me of what I can and can't do. And once I realized it wasn't my voice, I thought, I need to figure this out for myself. I need to have my own limits with the help of people that know me, know my past, someone that can be gentle and loving, both physically, emotionally, and mentally. Like let's do this slowly. Let's try. So I think that That's where I started to realize I have an inner monologue and it's not always me talking. And I I know when it's not me. Because it is it's very limited. And me for myself, I don't think I limit myself if it's not for that inner monologue. I like to try new things. I like adventure. I like to see. And so I think, ⁓ that's limiting. Okay, who is that? Or even like Is that Satan? Is that Satan isolating me and telling me like you can't do this? Like you're so dumb. You can't you know? Like, okay, that's that's not of the Lord and that's not healthy. So then I think all the things, all the correct tools have helped me to get to where I am to be able to kind of like pinpoint where that message is coming from. Mm-hmm. speaker-0: Mm, that is so good. And that's so good that you have that insight or that you were able to slow down enough to realize that you do have an inner wor a rich inner world and that you do have these voices. And thank God duh for being well because they did teach you so much and they taught me so much. The brothers, as we call them. It's a podcast that's incredible being well. speaker-1: It's a father and son, and we call them the brothers because of course. Maria Shriver. speaker-0: That's right. And ⁓ father son that which reminds me quick segue, I do have ADHD and I so I just wanna say that I will squirrel sometimes. And I squir squirrel because I think so when we go out people think, ⁓ are you guys twins? ⁓ are you guys mother daughter? Or, you know, what is it? And we're gonna say, ⁓ no, we're father son. speaker-1: Someone yesterday I will have to tell you about this in detail later. Someone yesterday that we both know that we've known for twenty years. No, more. Thirty. Long time. Thought I was you. This person asked me how long I was in town for. I was like, ⁓ no, I live here. And she's like, mm, since when? I said since forever. And she's like, no. You You've been here your whole life? I said yeah. And I could just tell this person was so confused. I said, Which sister do you think I am? And she's like, I know you're BB, but you look so much like Priscilla. You, Priscilla Kim Mao. And I was like, I thought so. And she's like, You look so much like her. I know you're not her, but I was so confused. I'm like, I I know. Which I think we do look alike, but in my mind I'm like, well, we're not. Brother son. Brother son. ⁓ my gosh. speaker-0: F brother son fing of birth order. speaker-1: ⁓ funny, yes. Exactly. speaker-0: That is so crazy. Yes, I want to hear the details. Yeah. so where I was going with that, I don't remember what I was saying. speaker-1: We were talking about ⁓ how people get us confused, you had segued. speaker-0: The brothers. speaker-1: ⁓ we were talking about ⁓ being well and how it's helped my region or speaker-0: rich inner world. Okay, so I was listening or doing a training this weekend with this guy named Ryan Raina. He's incredible. He teaches on attachment, specifically the theory or the yeah, theory that he uses is emotionally focused therapy. I love it because it is attachment theory based, which is my favorite. and I would like to talk more about it in a different podcast. But he was saying how like when you go through trauma, often you're so hypervigilant that you can't discover your inner world because you can't go out inside. You can't go internally because you're so focused on the external world. And from there it's either you can either be too focused on the external world or go inside to your rich inner world. Either way, like you didn't have someone that was curious about what was going on in your rich inner world or the lacking of an inner world. So a parent doesn't go in and say, hey, you know what's going on with you? Or what are your thoughts? What are your opinions? And not being corrected, like allowing you to have thoughts and opinions of your own. That blew my mind. And I thought, wow, is this like that's why I was asking you, is this how Like how was your rich inner world developed? How did you discover it? Because going based on that on his thought or opinion, do you think that you developed your rich inner world because that because I thought you got sick. Did you have a rich inner world before or did that come after? Do you remember? speaker-1: As you were talking, I did realize I think it started in the hospital, my rich inner world. And I think because I didn't have any other option or any other distraction because I was so isolated and really left to my thoughts. And because I was so young, I was a kid. I wanted to play. Like I wanted to have friends. I wanted to be outside. I think I started to develop that at eleven, like after I don't know how long of being in the hospital. just yeah, like playing in my mind and having like having fun how I could and like I know I I actually did play a lot with our mom, like how she's she's very creative, I would say. So even though I couldn't leave the room. Like I think I went outside, gosh. Very little. Very, very little. Just because I couldn't leave the floor because I was so critical. So but the few times like we would our mom and I would look out the window and she would tell me stories. Or I would think of things like looking at the birds. So all these things I think I I did start to create that rich inner world when I was By myself. speaker-0: That got me feeling all the feels. it's I'm so glad that you that you had mine, that she is so creative and because it can be such a lonely place is like what I hear, you know, having to play so internally that that that can be so lonely. So Wow, that hit me so hard. Yeah, that's so incredible that you remember developing that rich inner world because you couldn't you couldn't do that and like the emotions that come up for me right now is like deep sadness and so much grief for you that you weren't able to play during that time. You didn't have regular childhood you had to develop these imaginary friends and it just makes me think people that weren't in the hospital or didn't have a mom the way you did in those moments. Like that loneliness can be so real. Like I think of our brother ⁓ being so lonely and having to develop that rich inner world for himself. It's just so overwhelmingly sad and lonely. And I think that's part of this whole podcast is that we do want to connect with those that might be feeling that way, that feel that they don't have anybody. ⁓ that's loneliness is just so hard. So heavy. speaker-1: Mm, mhm, mhm, mm. speaker-0: Anyway, yeah, so thank you for sharing that. That's so personal, I think. speaker-1: Yeah. It is it is personal and I would say it's just very real. Like if I stopped to think about it, I think it seems very factual. Like if I let myself think about it, I I have gotten like I've processed like gosh, that was sad or that was lonely. ⁓ but thinking about it now I think I can feel like I'm eleven again. Like I think, ⁓ my gosh, I do remember specific birds that we would look at or specific thoughts like about flying like ⁓ pretending I was the bird like all the things like it yeah I think it is it is yeah it is hard and at the same time like I'm I am thankful that I've created that rich inner world because then that carried on to our home life and speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Mm. speaker-1: Wanting to escape that too. So and maybe learning I would say that comes for me with healthy and unhealthy thoughts, like wanting to escape. Maybe that's not an unhealthy thought. That is healthy and just the truth. I wanting to escape pain. ⁓ and I think with like learning that coping mechanism. really I would say kept me alive. Like being able to go into that rich inner world and yeah, imagining my inner people. Playing with my inner people. Yeah, it it did a lot. It did it got me, I guess, to places where I wished I hadn't. Like I think I don't I got to a place where I didn't want to be internal. Like I don't just want to have that internal life. I wanna have physical friends. I wanna go out physically. I wanna be out in the sun. ⁓ so I think that I can lean on that in moments where I don't need that anymore. But I'm glad I had it when I did. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And it just makes me think of other lonely people like if they don't have that rich inner world, they can scroll on their phone. Or they can read and just escape into books. Or they can escape into TV and, you know, having the characters from Little House on the Prairie be their friends. Yeah. speaker-1: Totally. speaker-0: Yeah. It's so i i we I don't even know that we realize when we are lonely the things that we're doing to keep us from being lonely. And I think, you know, jumping from one group of friends to another, to another and not really having that deep, intimate connection with somebody else, that can also be a way to escape. Or going to the grocery store and, you know, having your friends be, you know, the cashier. speaker-1: Yep. Mm-hmm. That's your only connection. speaker-0: Yes. Yeah. Changing yourself, being that chameleon, a social chameleon. Jumping from group to group and never really developing those those deep relationships. speaker-1: Mm hmm. Even staying in the same group. And not developing, like keeping it superficial that I just only know because I've also been there. Also done that. Yes. To where like I have friends. Yeah, we hang out all the time. But we may talk and they may think they know me. But there's so much there that I'm like, I can't just be like, ⁓ hey, what's up? My dad's in prison. You wanna go there? You know. It's not you know, that's not ⁓ really an inviting conversation for a new friend. I only know because I've also done that. Yeah. So I think either keeping it superficial, diving deep, like there can be an order. Like, okay, I met you, you know me, let's get to know each other more, little bits at a time. Now here we go to the next level of friendship, next level. And then ultimately you find people you're safe with and you can share your life with them. But it can't be sh I don't think it should be, just all in one day, which I've tried, I'm like Yes, I'm not gonna be your friend or you will be my therapist. Gird your loins. speaker-0: Exactly. Right. Exactly. Because it also can turn into, you know, what is intimacy? And that's something that I love running groups on from the RRP group. I I'm sure you've heard me talk about it ⁓ in our personal life, but here ⁓ it's a group where we learn or you know, people will learn how to do relationships because everything that you said is happening so often. So for example, I can either share my entire story But then if they do something to make me mad, I'm not gonna say, hey, I'm pissed because that was dangerous, or I shouldn't say how I'm really feeling. But we think we're in these deep relationships when we're not. And I just think, okay, so am I able to tell you this hurt my feelings? Or I remember the one time, the one time that we ⁓ I can't remember the situation, but you told me ⁓ that hurt my feelings. And to be able to say, That hurt my feelings and for me to receive and be like, ⁓ my gosh, not get defensive. Okay, tell me more. You know, what did I do so that I can better understand? And then you told me what I had done to hurt your feelings. I'm like, I'm so sorry, and I can totally see how I did that. And I think that's something that we didn't learn. ⁓ and I don't even know why I went off on that tangent, but it just seemed appropriate at the time. speaker-1: It made sense. Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah. I don't it's just yeah, birth order. speaker-1: Mm-hmm. Communicationships. Yes. Yeah. Yes. How to commu ⁓ I think because we were talking about how friendships are healthy. Like you start somewhere, you get to know them next level, next level. Yes. And where we're sisters, we grew up together and yet we didn't communicate growing up. So where we maybe should have been, could have been in our relationship having communicated like that hurts my feelings. That would have been awesome if we would have done that since childhood. But I think because that was such a first for me with you, it was gut wrenching. Like, okay, when I say even though I didn't think it, my body did not feel safe voicing like I didn't like this. Especially I think because we do have a good relationship, friendship, and we know that speaker-0: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: What's the word? Like when we try and make things better, that that we need to do that. We need to talk about it. But in my mind, n not in my mind, in my body, it can feel like if I say this, what if our relationship ends? Like what if she cuts me off? Even though I I know you're not going to. But because of our childhood, like you wrong me, you're out. If I vocalize you've wronged me, you're out. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: Anything negative, I say you're out, I'm out. So even though I know like, ⁓ this is Mao, I can tell her anything, my body's like, mm-mm, do not do that. This is dangerous. This is a zone you do not want to get into. And then once I did, I know that emotion. I was emotionally triggered for a long time. Like I think we talked about it several times until I felt safe and like, ⁓ speaker-0: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: I can tell her this and then it's just taken practice. And now I can tell you like, maybe don't say that next time, or I would really like it if you respect this whatever. And it's with ease now that I can just say, nah, that's not cool. Or can you do this? Like making requests. Now that's like, ⁓ this is what a healthy relationship is and can look like. speaker-0: Mm-hmm, exactly. Yeah. Egg. Zagai. Yeah, so feeling unsafe in your body, you're gonna be cut off. And that really speaks into attachment theory, which I totally love. So early on, somewhere and you even said it, you learned that if I vocalize my needs, wants, my difference of opinion, you're gonna be cut off. So that anxiety build is, ⁓ my gosh, I can't do this. I can't tell somebody, don't do this, I can't make a request, because if I do, I'm gonna lose connection. And like you said, it had nothing to do with me, but it started so long ago when you they say that your our attachment style gets developed between the last trimester of being in our ⁓ mother's womb up to two years. So between that time, somewhere along the line or along the road You learned it's dangerous if I make a request. Dangerous meaning I'm gonna lose connection with my primary caregiver. Typically it's the mom. And and this is just a quick overview of attachment theory. I just thought it you were describing it exactly. But you learned if I make a request, I'm gonna lose connection, and connection can mean my mom's not gonna come to me, or she's gonna ignore me, or she's gonna tell me that I'm being too much or too needy. Or not enough, or you're not asking right, or now you're gonna have to go to your room because you're crying, because you're asking and you're not getting what you need, you get sent off into your room, now you're isolated, and as a two year old, three year old, however old, that can feel like death because we have all of these emotions that we're born with, all of these bodily sensations that are saying, if I don't make connection with my primary caregiver, I'm gonna die because we need that connection with our parents or whoever's raising us as children, we are at our most vulnerable state. Isn't that crazy? speaker-1: Yes. Yes. I've heard that like if babies maybe we talked about this with Colin actually after the last episode that if babies don't get touched, they will die. That connection. And I can imagine like the third trimester you said until two I imagine like naturally we're inside of our mother. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: And then naturally and maybe s maybe some people wouldn't feel this way, but naturally I would say our mother breastfeeds us. So the physical connection is and should always be there. Let's say they breastfeed till her too. That makes sense. Like those that time is such a physical bonding time with your mother, I would say ideally. So I can see why that would be the most crucial time. That we would need with our primary caregiver. speaker-0: Yes. This weekend in my training with Ryan Reina, he said something that was so powerful. I want to read it. He said, Trauma trains the brain to protect right at the time to connect. So we learn to protect ourselves, like you said. I'm not gonna do this because I need to protect the connection that we have. If I say something, I'm gonna lose connection with her. Not because of anything that I've done, but because what your brain learned many, many years ago. And I'll say many, many, many Not that you're old. I'm just kidding. speaker-1: Just every decade every minute for every decade. That is crazy. Crazy, crazy. That's a a big statement that has so much meaning and is so powerful. And that is what yeah, I think trauma does. Trauma trains us, you said. It trains and I think it does. If we're trying to connect and we have trauma. Obviously our brain needs to shift and do something so that we do feel protected. I think our brain is always trying to keep us alive, ultimately. speaker-0: Yes. Yes. Yes, that's our nervous system. That's yes, that's the job of our brain, of our nervous system. We need to stay safe, we need to survive. And those are such big statements, you know, we need to stay safe and survive. We don't even realize that we're thinking that in moments of disconnection with our friends, with our partner. So if I feel like I'm disconnecting from my husband, now my brain's gonna move into protection mode. How am I gonna protect? What did I learn? speaker-1: Mm-hmm. speaker-0: To protect myself? Am I going to pick a fight? Which sounds ridiculous. Or am I going to withdraw? And all of these are set trying to send signals to the other person, I'm losing connection and I'm scared. But we've learned that vulnerability is not okay to show. And so for you, in that moment when we were having our f I'm not gonna say our first argument, but the first argument that we actually addressed where we got vulnerable with each other. speaker-1: Hmm. speaker-0: you moved into protection mode, but you were able to move past that discomfort and say, I'm still gonna have this conversation because at some point you were learning that maybe it was safe to say, I don't feel okay with this. speaker-1: Mm. I and I think you had a big part in that. So because you have given space, given me space specifically, to repair, to be vulnerable, and you stayed with it, and like you said, you didn't go into defensive mode. Just like, ⁓ my gosh, let me hear what she has to say. And I think like we've talked about before with trauma, if something traumatic happens and nobody's there to help or to receive you or to then that's when it does become a trauma. And I think because you not only gave space, but you encouraged. You told me like, no, tell me. Tell me what it is. Tell me what you're feeling. And then when I did say it, you validated. You said you're right, I did do that. And what can I do now? And so I think that that's what it takes. It takes two. Like the person going through the trauma and what initially as a child should be your parent or somebody, you know, being on the other end. And I think that's how we practiced. So if you say something to me, I can honor what you're saying and vice versa. So it's definitely not sure, I think I can give myself credit for doing it, even though it was hard, even though I was uncomfortable. And also credit to you. for helping helping me through that and being being okay with being told like I didn't like that. And not being a shamed. Like I wasn't shaming you. I was just vocalizing because that's also that can be another layer added. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You weren't shaming me and I in turn didn't shame you for having those feelings because shame runs in not just our family, but in our culture. The Mexican culture is a shame culture. And so to work through that, I think I think that's why the two of us being polar opposites, like you've taught me to slow down, to be more gentle, to not be so quick to respond and I've maybe taught you to speak up, it's okay, use your voice. And the two of us, without having a therapist there to like be the mediator, we were able to walk through that process because I think that's so helpful in therapy. Like if a couple comes in and they're both activated, they're both protecting in that protective brain, they're not gonna be able to hear either one of them. But the two of us have been practicing allowing each other to have that safe space. speaker-1: Mm. speaker-0: You gently correcting me or telling me, you know, ⁓ you might want to say that differently, me receiving it. I think that's that was very helpful in ⁓ in that situation. speaker-1: Mm-hmm. That's awesome. I love that. Thank you. I seriously I said that and it sounded very superficial, but thank you. Yeah. That's incredible. And I think this can be helpful for other people too to know like we do come from a family and culture that communicates in such a shameful way. And we didn't speaker-0: So thank you. Mm-hmm. speaker-1: Stay there, which is I think crazy. We could have stayed there that yes. Thank you, Jesus. That that could have been easily how we still communicate and say like, well, Mao never does this, or when Mao does this, you know. And not being like, actually, in the Bible it says, Go to the person who has wronged you. And to me, I'm like, that's terrifying. I'm not gonna go to my speaker-0: No. speaker-1: father who's wronged me. That's scary. What if I get killed? I don't know. Worst case scenario because that was a possibility. And now my body's telling me, Don't do that, you might die. Like, okay, that's not true. So yeah, I think it's taken a lot, but I think it's so cool that we actually have gotten to where we are. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Amen. And you're saying exactly like a memory chain. So memories are tied by theme. I tell my clients that daily. And that memory chain for you got open, the theme of it's dangerous to go to somebody and speak my wants and needs. And so for you, I can't go to my father because I could possibly die. Not only did it feel like you could possibly die, but you could have actually died. And so now that l memory gets stored and then the next time you share it, share a memory and it's by theme, it gets logged or tied into this original one. And so then all these memories get tied in. And so now you're an adult, something similar happens, the memory chain gets open as if you're the four-year-old, the three-year-old or whatever trying to go to that adult parent or the person that's taking care of you. And it gets opened as if you're that age and all the memories come flooding back. But we don't even know because we're moving so quickly. Crazy how our brain is so complex. Yeah. speaker-1: Mm. Yes, that mind and body connection. And then when you do realize like, ⁓ that is a theme. Okay, this may not be the actual like this may have a little portion of it. I may be reacting it like not with proportion. speaker-0: ⁓ yeah. Yes, yes. speaker-1: Yes, this did hurt me, but the emotion of it is like, wow, that's a little bit deeper. That goes to this. Where I can still tell you, did that hurt my feelings? Of course. Can I tell you? Of course. Did it hurt as much as my body's reacting? The emotion is maybe inappropriate for that one thing, but appropriate for what has built from that thing. speaker-0: Mm. Yep. Exactly. Yes. Yep. And for you to say, you know, that hurt my feelings, for me, my inner voice goes right into, ⁓ there you go. You screwed it up. You're too much. Which I it took me a long time to even realize that I had an inner voice. Like I didn't have the rich inner world. You escaped internally for multiple reasons and I just stayed vigilant. I need to speaker-1: Mm-hmm. speaker-0: be attuned to what everybody else is doing, be five steps ahead so that I can try to stop the train that's going to, you know, create disaster or chaos or whatever. And I think that like I I realized I also have a couple of different voices. Like for me it's if it's an emotional situation, my voice will be, you're too much, you're too harsh, why would you say that? And then I have this other voice that I hear often. And I hear it when I'm riding my mountain bike or really when I'm when I'm doing a task. And ⁓ that voice is me, I think like the true me. Because as I make an obstacle that I've been doing trying, you know, over and over and over to try to get. And then when I do make it internally, well and sometimes even externally, I'll be like, yes, I've got this. Or I own the mountain. Like these are really things that I'm telling myself or even going into it, it's like, you've got this, you're gonna get it, it's easy, and so that voice like comes in and you know, I listen to it and then I'm able to do the obstacle and then afterwards I'm high fiving myself mentally. Or like the other day I realized I parked ⁓ and I our garage was super tight, so I had to park our car, like I have to follow this black tape line that Cody put in for me and I did it so easy and I got out and I looked to see where the car was parked. Did I follow the line? Was I parked on it? And I was and I'm like, the internal voice that came up was like, Don't tell me I can't park. And I'm like, such different voices. And I think that's me and not me. I thought, where did that voice come from? I'm fighting against some critical voice that's telling me that I can't do things or that I'm doing things wrong. And I thought that's interesting how we have these inner voices and which voice are we listening to. And I think like you said, when you were able to tell me that I had hurt or yeah, that I had hurt your feelings, that inner voice wanted to come in even right now. ⁓ see, look. You're, you know, you're too harsh. You're too much. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: And then I just have to tell myself, but I'm human. Like yes, I'm learning to do something different. And I could be way harsher given the circumstances that we grew up in. And I think that ⁓ That self compassion can come in and be like, Well no, well of course I reacted that way, it makes sense and I don't have to do that anymore. speaker-1: Mm. Mm-hmm. And knowing each other and knowing we have those inner voices from a very harsh knowing like when I say this and I feel like I'm gonna die that's my past. And for you like I feel like I screwed up again. Like that's my past. That's not BB. And ⁓ those are just things I remind myself of. speaker-0: Past. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. speaker-1: I would say mostly with Ruben because we live together so he gets to see that beautiful side of me. And so I will remind myself, like, this is Ruben. Like Ruben's gentle. Ruben's a good guy. Ruben has great intentions. His motive is always, always to take care of me and to love me. So I think when you do get to know somebody that deeply, that richly, then you can understand, like, ⁓ yeah. Her motive is this is good for me. And that's what makes it easier to communicate and to say, Here's what I ha here's what happened and here's what I perceived happened. And then you can get into it not having that like, ⁓ my gosh, I'm the worst person, or ⁓ my gosh, she's the worst person. It's just, ⁓ she's communicating something and the emotions are deep because we both share. the same past, which is awesome. Like who else better to do this with than with each other? Because we do know the depth of what happened in our home, in the hospital, like all those details. We get it. And I think that's cool that we can do that together. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, for sure. And like you're saying, motive. For a long time I thought people's motives are out to get me. They're being nice because they want something from me. And so it took time and time again for us to, or at least for me, like in our relationship as adults, you showed up continuously, you have ⁓ my back over and over and over. And that was a corrective emotional experience. where you showed me and my nervous system was able to trust you. And so then you were able to say or I was able to say, okay, she's bringing something to me. I hurt her feelings. And it's not because she wants to shame me that she's saying this. It's because I truly hurt her feelings and that doesn't make me a bad person, which I believed for such a long time that inherently I was a bad person. And through our relationship we've been able or at least I've been able to realize that's not true. speaker-1: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then realizing like if I didn't care about you, I wouldn't have said it. But because I want our relationship to be more functional, to be healthy, I will say something. And I think that should make you feel good about yourself. Like sh ⁓ she wants a relationship with me because I am awesome. Or because I I'm a not you know, I didn't mess up again. She wants to keep this. So I think that is to me that would be motivating. Like, ⁓ of course she's telling me how I hurt her feelings because she wants to stay in this relationship because I am worth staying in the relationship with. speaker-0: Yes. Yes. And when people don't have that, it can be so lonely. Yes. Right? Because I could isolate myself even more. I could withdraw. I could not trust you. ⁓ I hurt her feelings. I'm not good enough. I'm not even gonna try to be a friend. Baby's too good for me. Because I'm hurting her feelings, I'm not even gonna try to pursue this relationship because our wires get crossed and that loneliness can kick in. speaker-1: Yes. Yes. And how we were talking about loneliness, like I feel like that's a theme. We were talking about like the loneliness that being in the hospital brought for me. The loneliness that like when we do have to turn into our rich inner world, like we're doing that to prevent loneliness or even staying out of a relationship. It's counterintuitive or counterproductive that I would feel like I'm not gonna be in this relationship. It's too hard. And then it backfiring with loneliness. But then if I am in a relationship and it's not a healthy one, there is still loneliness. So how do we fight against that? How what steps do we take practically to move out of loneliness? speaker-0: Yes. speaker-1: Because I think everyone, I know everyone at one point or another has felt lonely. And so I think for people listening like I do want to hear with your expertise, like how can people including myself speaker-0: Mm. speaker-1: Move towards not being lonely. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. And that can be such a complex question because everybody's different. So even if we just take our situation or these two different personalities, one that's maybe more quiet and one that's more outgoing, it can look two different ways. So for example, if somebody's more outgoing but yet they're still lonely, is maybe joining a small group. mm, if they don't have a church, finding a group that, you know, if they like hiking, finding a hiking group, and then finding someone that consistently shows up and just noticing, okay, this person seems to be showing up, maybe asking them, hey, do you want to go get coffee? Or ⁓ if they're a more quiet person, more reserved, and joining a small group by themselves is like not a possibility. Even just joining, let's say If you have a large group, let's say that you're in a church and you're not in a small group of that church, just maybe always sitting in the same spot. Okay, I'm gonna see who's around me, just noticing, even starting internally, what is my inner voice telling me? And if we can start to notice, you know, let's say that they're a more ⁓ a person that's more introverted, what's that voice telling me? Noticing that voice, that's such an easy place to start. It doesn't take so much risk. ⁓ my gosh, I'm gonna put myself out there. What if I'm rejected? That's your inner voice. Okay. Who said that? Whose voice is this? Is this true? Okay, it's not true, okay, and if it's not true, what is one thing that I can do that fights against that? Pretty much exactly what you did. speaker-1: Wow. speaker-0: I often just tell my clients that their homework is just notice. Just notice what bodily sensations come up this week. And when are they coming up? If they don't know or they don't stop to think, setting an alarm on your phone, let's say for it to go off at 9 a.m. or 3 p.m. and it just goes off and just notice. Okay, are my shoulders tight? What are my thoughts? What's going on around me? There's an app called How We Feel. I don't know if I've mentioned it before or if I've sent it to you, but it can set a reminder to touch in, to touch space with yourself. Okay, what am I feeling? And that can help you start recognizing: am I introverted? Am I extroverted? Do people give me energy? If I am lonely, what are things that I enjoy? Let's say I enjoy puzzles at home by myself. Okay, what if I look up on Facebook puzzle group. Okay, even reaching out on social media, maybe not taking the step of actually meeting the person because that can be a lot. Hey, you know, I've noticed that you like puzzles. I do too. What kind of puzzles do you like? That all can also help. I think Facebook was made for people that are more introverted, where their social world maybe actually like stepping outside and being with someone can be really scary. But through social media, through Facebook, I think that is one of the positive things is that we can find people that are like minded and take a step and say, I'm gonna fight this inner voice and take that step and message somebody today. speaker-1: Mm mm. That can help. I think that's such good advice. ⁓ Keeping it you can keep it low stakes. Like it doesn't have to be I I'm lonely. I have to go out and meet people every night. I have to go to parties. I have to go to large group gatherings. But yeah, starting low stakes and maybe even learning to trust yourself. I think if I'm doing something low stakes and I see, I went here, I stayed for 20 minutes, I was able to get out when I said I would, I start start to trust myself, and then I can do it again. And then after I've trusted myself, then I'll start to trust people. Because I imagine with loneliness. there can come a sense of not trusting people otherwise you probably would be out meeting people and trusting them so i think if i'm lonely low stakes maybe meet someone on facebook or maybe interact in that way a little at a time and then take the next step and then it's like ⁓ okay i can trust myself in this process so then that can just build off of each other speaker-0: Yes. It's beautiful. I love that. You know, as we're talking about this loneliness thing, It can be really helpful too, like if we're putting ourselves out there and we're saying, hey, if there's anybody out there that's listening, connect with us. Like I would really encourage you, or encourage anybody that's listening, if they are, if you are lonely, to connect with us. Leave a comment. ⁓ ask us questions. We would love to connect with you. And we're here because loneliness is real. I know I've been lonely, and it's not a fun place to be. speaker-1: Mm. I agree. I would echo that and say, yes, connect. ⁓ I'm sure people can feel connected just by listening to it, but to actually like type something and say, Hey, I would like to connect. And then from there we can figure out what that would look like. speaker-0: Yeah, for sure. And having even them having reach out to those around them, to family members if they're safe, or their neighbor, because maybe their neighbor is just as lonely as them. So that can be that can also be helpful. speaker-1: Mm-hmm. speaker-0: So today I feel like we had a good conversation. I shed some tears. I knew that I would at some point in this podcast. And yeah, so if this resonates with anybody, like we're saying, ⁓ connect with us, reach out, to like, subscribe, follow us. We would love to hear from you. speaker-1: Yes, and thank you so much for listening.