Latest / Brands, Beats & Bytes / Album 3 Track 18 – Shannon Watkins, Chief Brand and Marketing Officer at Aflac, Co-Founder at The A Pledge

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Album 3 Track 18 – Shannon Watkins, Chief Brand and Marketing Officer at Aflac, Co-Founder at The A Pledge · Brands, Beats & Bytes

• DC: What's happenin', Brand Nerds. Back at you with another podcast Brands, Beats, & Bytes. And I just got to tell y'all I'm giddy today. I'm, I'm just giddy today. We get to talk to smart folks all the time. Insightful people drop in jew-els sometimes we get to talk to these kinds of folks and they happened to be really good friends as well. So while this is going to be a business conversation, it's going to be a conversation with a friend for me. LT, can you talk just a bit about who has joined us in the building today? LT: Yeah, DC, we really, really excited to welcome Shannon Watkins to Brands, Beats, & Bytes today. Welcome Shannon! Shannon: Hey everybody! How ya'll doin? LT: All right, Shannon. So on Brands, Beats, & Bytes we have to give you your propers for the Brands Nerds to know you from the jump. All right. So, here we go. Shannon earns her undergrad degree in Biology from the prominent HBCU Fisk University in Nashville, Tennessee, and her first job out of schools with P&G, as a Product Research Associate. I am guessing this experience may have influenced Shannon to go into marketing, but I am sure we will find out more about this. So anyway, after two years at P&G Shannon goes back to school and earned her MBA in Marketing and International Business from Indiana University's Kelley School of Business. So now Shannon embarks on her career in brand management, where she first starts at Kraft Foods, then moves over to Conagra foods, which are really D, two great places to learn brand management fundamentals. Right? So here is where Shannon makes a move to progress up the ladder where she joins PepsiCo as Director of Marketing, but then quickly moves over to Coca-Cola where she begins as a Director, and eventually is promoted to a Senior Director where she spends almost nine years working on brands, such as Coke Zero, Dasani, and very near and dear to my heart power Powerade, where she and her team grow the brand to record setting results. We got to talk more about this Shannon. Shannon: Absolutely. LT: Yes, yes. Yes. So D Shannon is kicking butt at North Avenue as you know, right, right? But then she's called to leverage all of her great work at Coke and joins this insurance company, Columbus, Georgia. You may know it. It's called Aflac as VP of Marketing and with her skillset and all her team's great work. She's first promoted to SVP. And just a few months ago, was elevated to CMO. Additionally, throughout her career, Shannon has earned several prestigious industry awards, including recognition as Adweek's Most Powerful Women in Sports, Brand Innovators Top 100 in Brand Marketing, a Clio and a Cannes Lion. And lastly, Shannon is also a leader for diversity inclusion through action, by her service as co-founder and board member of The APledge, which DC and other great guests, such as Katie Kern and Jeff Hilimire are co-founders. And to remind you Brand Nerds, the APledge is an Alliance of Atlanta agency and corporate leaders working together to create a more equitable and diverse workforce. She's also a Board Advisor for the Alliance for Inclusive and Multicultural Marketing for the Association of National Advertisers, also known as ANA. She's on the Dean's Council, the Kelley School of Business at Indiana University, her Alma mater, and Shannon is also a member of next Black Executive CMO Alliance, Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, the Deltas right, and Jack and Jill of America. We have ourselves and another great one Brand Nerds. Welcome to Brands, Beats, & Bytes, Shannon Watkins. Shannon: Hey, everybody again, Larry and DC. Thank you so much for the invite and for me to be able to come on and talk to you guys. DC: All right, Shan. We about to have a nice little conversation here. Couple things though. Larry, once again, Shannon, everybody gets their flowers when they pop up on this podcast. So you got yours and... LT: All earned, we just, we just announced them. That's it. DC: That's right. That's right. That's right now, Shannon, a couple things that Larry mentioned, and he is, introduction of you to the, to the brand nodes out there. You did a short stint at Pepsi. And I don't think I knew that until we started preparing for this podcast. And then he came on over to Coke. So I'm glad you made the move from, from Pepsi to Coke. I'm glad that I still, I still hold Coke dear to my heart. I got no problem with Pepsi; but you know my favorite is Coke. So I'm glad you, I am. Shannon: I am born and raised in Atlanta, Georgia. You know, I, I've also always looked at that tower on North Avenue as a, as a young girl and always had a vision of working there even before I knew it. And so, you know, I felt really blessed to have the experience to work at Coca-Cola when I did, because while I was there, it was some giants, you know, Craig Williams, who's now the President and CEO of Jordan Brand, Scott Uzzell who is President/CEO of Converse. I was, you know, in the same, I'd say class as Maurice Cooper, who is the SVP at Target, the list goes on and on, William White CMO of Walmart, we were at Coke during an epic time. And I don't think we realized how much we learn from each other and network with each other to help each other grow. LT: So true. I know DC and I feel the same way about our time, which was before your time. So yeah, that's, that's really, that's really awesome. D, I don't know If I ever told this I'm going to keep it quick, because this is about Shannon, but I was at a wedding and I was working at Seagram at the time. And a good friend of mine from business school, shout out Jerry McGee was getting married in Atlanta, and I went for a run and I ended up running towards the building. Like you said, the tower on North Avenue, Shannon. And it was one of these weird things. I did a turn around there and I said, I'm going to work here one day. And sure enough, like, oh, wow, three years later, I had this, like, it was weird. I had this vision and I knew I was going to work there one day. And there was no reason for me to think that, so crazy. Right. DC: You've never shared that story, bro, though. He never shared that story. Now there's another connection, that you have Shannon with someone who is near and dear to our show and also a person that's, in large part responsible for my success in brand management. And that's a brother by the name of Steve Horn. Steve Horn is also a Kelley Business School graduate. LT: That's right. DC: Yep. And he worked at Coke. He was, he was my boss. The first brother that was a Director of Marketing at the Coca-Cola Company in brand. And then I think the first AVP of Marketing, he was, he was sensibly the number two in at, in North America, in brand. And so, you you've got that connection as well, which leads me to this Shannon, this section we call "Get Comfy." And I like, I'm curious about this background that you have of undergrad at Fisk University standup and grad at Indiana University. These are two very different institutions from a composition perspective, size perspective, location in the country perspective. How was that for you? Shannon going from Fisk and then a couple of years at P&G and Cincinnati over to, Indiana. Shannon: You know, I started at Fisk because my mother worked in an office with a lot of Fisk grads. I never heard of Fisk believe it or not. And so I went and visited. I had a campus visit and it felt like home. It was undescribable. I got into UGA, I got into University of Tennessee. I got into all these big institutions, PWI institutions with scholarships, but this felt like home. And so while I was yet, it was just different. It was different than any other experience. Fisk is, is very small. The school is more than a hundred years old, but greats have come out of there. John Lewis, W. E. B. Du Bois, and the list goes on and on. And so while I was there, you know, I had a different appreciation for culture. There were black and brown people from the islands, from London, from the west coast, from down south, from the Northeast. And during that time, you know, everybody had their own vibe. It was the mid nineties. Everybody had their own music and their own swag, but everybody supported each other. It was family, regardless of what we were into, what the different majors were, it was family. And so, you know, I, I was there, biology pre-med and found out the hard way that that career was not for me. I remember going to anatomy physiology and losing my cookies. The entire class found out the hard way. I have a very weak stomach and had to figure outa pivot and that pivot came in the way of trying to bridge the gap between this R and D (research and development) background that had studied so hard for, and really leaning into how do I, and I didn't even know it back then, but how do I help people? And so I had an internship with the USDA and Solon Atmospheric Sciences. What I thought I was going to like about that internship was the science part. What I loved about it was helping the farmers of Pullman, Washington get better crops from their, from their fields, with the data and insights that I was, I was offering. And so that led me to a career at P&G because I was the middle man between the R and D group and the brand group coming up with methodology and ways to show you know, hair lasting 24 hours in the rain with, with Pantene and things of that nature. And, you know, my experience in Cincinnati was amazing because again, it felt like home. I had a lot of people around me who just wanted to help Anne Sempowski Ward who is now the CEO of Times, you had SC Eggleston who I just watched from afar do her thing, Kimberly Page, Katie Williams, who is now the CMO of GSK, they just let me tag along. They let me go along and understand what brand was like the other side. And that's what drove me to IU. I went to IU as a Consortium Fellow. IU you has a rich legacy and heritage of supporting diverse students. They were one of the founding schools for the consortium for graduate study and management. I was there doing again a great time and a lot of people think of you as middle America, corn fields. That is the reality of Indiana, but it wasn't my experience at IU they wrapped their arms around me as someone who had never taken a business class or econ class, a finance class, their intention was for me to be a, an alumni, not someone who failed. And so they wrapped their arms around me and all my classmates, and really the rest is history. LT: That's so cool. And D you notice that Shannon's now giving back, being on the board of trustees, like that's, that's awesome. Shannon: Thank you. Thank you. You know, we, we have to keep that circle going. You know, if we want more black business leaders, we have to continue to give our, as IU, likes to say, "Our time, talent and treasures" it's gotta be all three. Time, talent and treasures back to make sure that we are not the last. And so, you know, I, I give as much as I, as I possibly can because I used to, you know, they leaned in, they, what we like to say is they, they took a risk. They took a leap of a little, you know, somebody Southern from Nashville, again, who had never taken a business class in their life, but they leaned in on my potential. And so I feel honored to be an alumni of IU and I feel a tremendous sense of obligation to make sure that that program is successful. DC: So Brands Nerds, something to keep in mind, listening to your story, Shannon, it's this. You can be at Fisk in Nashville, or you can be an Indiana is in Bloomington? Shannon: Bloomington, Indiana. DC: Bloomington, Indiana. And they may on the surface appear to be two entirely different types of universities. However, if the universities are populated with similar types of people, you can have a similar feeling. And I think that can be true of companies, schools, neighborhoods. It's about the people. And, and this is a, th this is, a very interesting thing that you have discovered you discovered early in your career, Shannon, early. That's dope. Yeah, that's dope. Larry, anything else about to get comfy before we start into our questions? All right, Shannon. Next section here is called five questions. It goes down like this. I, I posit a question. Larry posits, a question. We go back and forth until we arrive at five and I get to kick this thing off. So Shannon, I'm just super curious about this, given your research background in consumer products, CPG, when you were at a Procter & Gamble, but also the research that you did that was in the area of biology before you even got to the CPG part of it all so here's the question. What's the first branding experience that you had Shannon at any point in your life? Where it just had the hairs on the back of your neck stand up. You were so into this, you were so enamored that you lost yourself in it. You just love this, this brand, whatever it was, whenever that was for you, what was that? Shannon: It was 1994. DC: Oh the year. Shannon: The year. I was getting ready to go to school, to Fisk. I was still in Atlanta and I was watching BET, and the commercial opened where this young good-looking brotha' was on a bus, singing about Coca-Cola. The Tyrese Always spot was when I fell in love with brand didn't even know it. It was something about that spot that showed me. I connected with it. I felt like I could be him. And for the first time I felt like a brand could see me. That was when I fell in love with marketing. That's when I fell in love with brands. That's when I fell in love with Coca-Cola without even knowing. And so that was my first, I think that moment that I knew there was something, but the moment that I fell in love with this as a career. Brand is a career. Is when I was at Proctor and Gamble. You know, my job was to be the middleman between the R and D group and the brand group. And I started on Pantene and I got a phone call one day from, from our managers at the time and said, okay, we're putting together a small group of people, all Black to work on finding and discovering what a beauty care brand could be for people of color globally. It was six of us on the squad research, product development, insights, brand just, just a great group of people. And that's when I fell in love with brand because you really get to... when you have the opportunity to put your heart into a product that, you know, people need. People of African descent need skincare that's different, hair care that's different, need facial care that's different. When I was able to pour my love and heart into an assignment, I knew that this was a career for me. And it's really what drove me to want to go back to business school because anybody can go to Duke, not anybody, but you can go create commercials. You can create content, but I knew that I wanted to make business decisions that would help folks live better lives regardless of what product or category it was on. So I knew I needed to understand the financials, the economics, how to reach people. That's what I fell in love with the career in brand. LT: How deep is that D? I love that story, Shannon. So, Hey, can I have a follow-up on that? So what ended up happening with that project? Shannon: Interesting. We launched Pantene. Well, we developed the categories, beauty care, hair care, skin care. We were able to get different products from all over the globe, understand the commonalities. Japenese consumers and Black consumers have a whole lot in common. So we're able to take technologies across the globe from Procter and Gamble and put them into one package. We launched it Pantene For People of Color. Didn't do so well. Why? Because women of color in, at that point, it was before, right before 2000, went to Black beauty care to buy their products. LT: Yes. Shannon: Proctor and Gamble has a foothold in general market or majority outlets from a distribution channel. The lesson learned there, you got to know where you're going to play, and if you don't have a foothold there, then you gotta build it. And Procter and Gamble at that time, didn't have a foothold in the Black beauty care space. So we were a fish out of water, regardless of how great the brand was. LT: I love this on so many levels. You want to go first? Because I have so many. DC: I'll come up. LT: So, so Shannon, we've talked about similar topics on this show a lot and the way you described it, it sounds like you guys came up with a killer product, but when you took, put it into the Pantene world, the brand, as, as DC likes to say what his, what his mom said, "the video doesn't match the audio." The brand didn't fit. The brand did not work for the, what we would say, the brand lover or the target audience. So it didn't matter how good the product was. There was a mismatch of brand. Shannon: Absolutely. And, and, you know, consumers are savvy, especially multicultural consumers. They know when you have been doing the work in their communities, because for them, it's not just about product or price. It's about how you show up authentically as a brand in the community that you want to be a part of and Pantene hadn't shown up. They didn't have any receipts. So we got beat up when you, when you went into market in that way. So that was a huge lesson learned for me early in my career. LT: That's a great lesson to have early, right? DC: It is. I'm going to connect this to a human story. Larry knows this. Shannon, I'm not certain that you know this or not, but on January 14th of this year, and we are now in the year of 2021, I was in a horrific automobile accident. And, I was on 75/85 traveling north of just before the 10th street/14th street, exit those of you guys who know the A, you know exactly where, where I was and someone tagged me going, if I'm guessing behind me, I'm going to guess 90, all right? Because I'm doing 55/60. And I launch, long story short. I ended up walking away from that accident without a scratch and after that happened happened, I said to myself, I need to now look at the time I have remaining as bonus time. And I want to make certain that I'm doing more of the things that I truly want to do with friends and family. And one of the things that came out of that, Shannon, Larry knows this, was a Sunday brunch with my daughters. So every Sunday there's a brunch. Sometimes they all make it. Maybe they don't all make it, but they know that there's a standing Sunday brunch. It has been marvelous. Shannon. It has been marvelous. Now I wonder though, what would happen if someone that I didn't know well, but I knew of, would just pop up at our brunch. I suspect we would go, Hey dude, or lady. I mean, it's cool that you want to do brunch with us, but you haven't been here and we haven't invited you here and I've not seen you here, so I'm not so certain that you need to be sitting at our table right now. That is the analog for Pantene and what you all did. What Black and Brown folks know is that like I got, I got three daughters. I've been in Sally's Beauty Supply umpteen number of times I've been to the, to the, to the corner store where, where does a beauty shop getting hair products from my daughters and my former wife forever. If I walked into one of those places and all of a sudden saw back, then a row of Pantene, Shannon, I'd be like, "Hey, what are you doing here?" Okay. That's what I would say, not to mention it wasn't there. So here's the point you're making is a great one. And I think for the Brand Nerds here is that before you make your move into a new segment find a way to quietly make your move before you make your loud move. Shannon: Absolutely. And I think it's also, it's guided the way I think about structure that helped me understand that you got to have diverse people around you. It feels like home, but they gotta have different experiences because they can help you not step in that big pile of poo that you go step in when you take X, Y, or Z action. And I think a lot in it, and as a leader, sometimes it's not as comfortable to have the people around me who I don't immediately connect with or identify with, from an experience perspective, from a life perspective, we may be polar opposite, but you know, what? It's the best thing for the business? DC: Yes. Well-stated well-stated. Before we get to the next question, I just want to do a quick shout out. That's that commercial that you mentioned with Tyrese singing the always Coca-Cola song at that time. That was their, their jingle always Coca-Cola, that music was created by a brother. He had a company, his name is Michael Hudson. So I want to shout out Michael Hudson. He also had a business partner or two. They are the ones who came up with that song. And I don't know how many people know that, but, shout, , Michael Hudson. All right, Larry, you want to hit the next one brother? LT: So Shannon who has had, or is having the most influence on your career? Shannon: Oh, this one's a tough one. And I will say that when I was very junior in my career, I was, I was I, I like to say. Kraft was my first real job because it was after B-school. That was my first real job. And there was one person at Kraft, Mary Beth Stone West. She used to walk in the room and everybody turned their head. She was not only beautiful, but she was smart as a whip, savy, smell good. She walked by and the scent just lingered. And everybody I know, wanted to be like Mary Beth Stone West. And so she taught me very early on that you got to take care of your team. As a leader, you are in the people business. And if you don't have a, a team that's that can understand your vision and get on board and follow your vision, then you are not going to be successful. She taught me that in Spain. The second person that I learned or had a huge influence on my career was somebody who was polar opposite than me. He was at Coke. His name is Derek from Germany, very German, stoic. Very direct. I remember sitting in a Powerade brand plan meeting. And, you know, back in those days, that brand plans where you knew you, you write your plan for the year you presented in front of the entire ELT, and it was the thing you wore your good Sunday clothes.to brand plan review. And so Derek looked at me and he said, "Shannon, if you hadn't done anything, any of these actions over the last two years, I don't think the brand would be any different." and I clutched my pearls. He said in front of everybody, I was so taken aback. But Derek, he was direct. He was smart. And he was the one that taught me that mediocre and go get it. Don't do mediocre because it's not going to drive your brand forward. If it ain't epic, nobody's going to remember it. And in two years, your actions will not look any different. So then you gotta ask yourself, what value are you creating? What legacy are you leaving on a brand that you are leading? And so that was someone who had a huge, huge influence on my career. And then I'd say the last person, out of threes. I'm the last person is my husband, Rashad. I remember we met in Chicago. And when we met, and we've been together probably 15, 16, 16 years. I told him at that point, I was like, I want to be a CMO. I want to lead an organization. And he has helped me navigate like no one outside my mama could have helped me navigate because he told me the truth. He told me when my shit stank, I hope we can cuss can't cuss. Okay. Okay. Okay. He was able to really help me understand and put a mirror against my actions of when I'm going off track so that I could get back on track, with love. And so I'd say he is the third person who has had the biggest impact on my career because he has maintained his ability to be painfully obvious and painfully honest with me about some of the decisions I make and some of the consequences I need to live with as a leader. LT: Wow. DC: It's a blessing to have some blessing. LT: D, before we go to the next question, I'm struck with how much Shannon pays attention, 360, you know, too, from Mary Beth Stone, Derek, Rashard, is that, is that Rashad, with with no "R", I'm struck with that because that's somebody who's paying attention to everything and is really listening and taking it all in, which is a huge thing. DC: We all in life have blind spots. If you're a human being, you have a blind spot and you know you have a blind spot because you're a human being. Two things first, an openness to allow people to shine a light into our blind spots. It's hard being vulnerable. It's hard saying I'm scared. I don't know. I need help. These things are, are frightening, for many. And then the second thing you need is someone who was willing to shine the light and Rashad has been willing to shine the light. And that is a, that is a beautiful thing. The other thing here is that, Mary Beth Stone, that you described that at Kraft, Mary Beth Stone West. Okay. Mary Beth Stone West. Thank you, Larry. Jeff also knew her a Kraft, and he concurs. So he sent us a text Shan, and letting us know if he could concurs, by the way, Jeff's grandmother is also a Fisk graduate. Get that on wax. But something Shannon that I have noticed about you. And I wonder if any of what I noticed in you has come from some influence of Mary Beth Stone West. She sounds like someone who was able to command the respect of a room and an organization yet maintain her femininity. Shannon: Absolutely. DC: Is that true? Shannon: She knew how to yield power, in a way that was still true to her. Especially back in the early two thousands. She was one of, I think Ann Fudge was before her at Kraft. And I think, and I think Mary Beth followed in her footsteps, but it was truly a boys club before they came on the scene and she was able to outsmart, outwit, out strategize and do it with a smile on her face, looking good. And so it, it really showed me at that point, you know, you can be exactly who you are and it's almost like a requirement to be exactly who you are and be true to yourself. And you don't have to be a man or have male tendencies, emulate men to drive your agenda and to win. DC: What an important lesson, what an important lesson. Next question here, Shannon, you got your flowers up top. Larry gave to you, you earned 'em. You've had many successes, but it is said that, amongst some that you learn a little from your successes and you learn a lot from your failures. So I want to know what's your biggest F-Up and what did you learn from it? Shannon: I've had so many, I've had so many. I will, I will share just a couple. The first from a career perspective was I was at Kraft Foods. I was doing well, Mary Beth Stone West was my boss, was my bosses boss. She was the VP at the time and she was really nurturing, mentoring, doing all the things for the young folks in that office. And I got a call from Conagra foods and they dangled a big ole' carrot. And I took it. That was one big F-Up.My lesson there, and Conagra at that time was truly general management. It wasn't consumer lead, it was operations and manufacturing and finance lead. And so I took the job to go to Conagra and I remember very distinctly the sadness that Mary Beth looked at me with when I shared that news with her, because she knew that I was making a rookie mistake, taking a job for money. She knew that I didn't do my homework from a culture perspective, because again, Fisk, IU, P&G Kraft, nurturing culture, familiar culture, Conagra did not. And so I stayed at Conagra for a couple of years. I learned a lot during that experience. I learned a lot, the hard way. I learned a lot about financial acumen, about raw material management, capacity constraints, FDA regulations, pricing. It was not feeding my soul. And I think that was the first biggest F-Up that I didn't do my homework from a culture perspective. And I got caught up in the money. I know now that when you are passionate about what you do, you will wake up with joy in your heart and the money will come. So that was my big, huge lesson learned from that effort. The second is that, you know, when you are specifically in positions of leadership, And I said this earlier, you're in the people business. It's about the people, because without the people, you don't have results. And I don't think I realized until the pandemic and the last year that we have had just how important team dynamic is to the culture of an organization you're building. When we are in these seats, we don't always, you know, we're, we're figuring it out as we go and you're gonna, you're gonna make mistakes. But when you see a mistake happening with the culture of your team, where people are not jiving, where it's fundamentally hurting the momentum of a team, you have to be willing and able to do what's best for the team and not necessarily what feels good personally. And so I think, in this year, I've had to really confront, you know, putting friendships aside, putting heart moments aside and, and being the leader that I know I need to be for Aflac in the moments that need me the most. And that means making the decisions based on the business. Business ain't always gonna win out, but in these roles, you have to be able to separate business and friendship. And so that has been my second biggest lesson learned, you know, I am a hugger. I am someone who wants, you know, I'm just like everybody else. You, you get close to the people that you work with every single day, but you got to keep some healthy distance in order for the work to be successful. LT: Wow. DC: Good, Shannon. LT: Those are, those are two fantastic ones D. Like on different levels, right? I mean, Conagra while you learn from it. Shannon, how long did it take you to realize, oh, this isn't, this ain't the right place. Shannon: A month, a month. But at that point in my career and in my life, I was so insane. I was learning and I will go as far to say I was insecure in my decision-making. I wasn't bold enough to say to myself, I made a mistake. I need to pivot. I didn't have that confidence. I stuck it out because I was like, well, maybe it's me. It's me. And so I was trying to fix myself to fit, what that organization expected of me, fix myself to fit that culture. And you can't fix yourself. You got to go where you within the standard deviation of the cultural of the culture that you're going into. So you can be. LT: Wow. Shannon. I have to tell you, you and I almost have the same experience. I've never talked about this on the show. When I left Coca-Cola for a startup and I had the same situation where I remember, D, talking to Frank,the CMO at the time at Coke and tell him what I was doing. And he looked at me like, dude, serious. Like that's what you're doing? You know, same, almost the same disappointment. I had the same look, Shannon. And. You know, we learned, right. We're also we're probably around the same age, you know, you're in your thirties, you think you can do anything. And and sometimes the best moves are the moves not made. Right. And, and yet at the same time you learned from yours, I learned from mine. And I'm also struck with your team dynamics are so important. I've had the pleasure of being a youth basketball coach, and I've also had the pleasure of, two of my five teams won championships. So I know what that's like. And I also have one team that was, that was just incredibly underachieving. And it was all about the team dynamics, it was all about the team dynamics. And so it goes from, you know, seventh and eighth grade youth basketball, to teams we have in business, it's the same dynamics that Shannon alluded to. And so we all can relate to that. And it's, it's so, so critically important. And I think a lot of times we tend to overlook it, but then almost in, towards to later until we really have to fix it. So that's a huge thing. Shannon: And I will tell you over the last year, I've spent more time with Coach Nick Saban than I did in the two previous years of our relationship. We've been in relationship for three years and we had a long conversation about University of Alabama and winning. And his comments to me were, you know, Shannon University of Alabama, we have a culture and it's certain things that you do and you don't do. And we cannot let yes, we need to evolve, but we can't let one person change our culture. And so those words really resonated with me because if you want to win, you got to establish. A clear vision, a clear culture, clear norms so that people know what to expect and what your expectations are of them. I'm not doing my teams a service if I'm not setting the expectation, because I firmly believe anybody who works in corporate America and, and brand geeks out there, we all just want to win. We all want to make our bosses happy, and if I'm not doing a good job of setting the expectation, then none of us can win DC: Here, here. Two quick comments before we hit the next question. The first is about when to make a move. One of my mentors was Don Cornelius, the inimitable, Don Cornelius, rest in power. I remember talking to him once, Shannon and Larry think Larry, you may have heard this before about a career move. I was, about to make and a brother Cornelius said, okay, young fellow sounds good, but don't make your move to soon. That's what he said to me, shannon. I did not make that move. If he said that I did not, I did not make that move. LT: Hey Shannon, I wish we had Don on our side. When we made those moves, DC: Young fellow had his ears wide open. I'm saying if this brother's telling me this, given what he's done, I think I need to chill out. So I didn't make a move. Second thing, shannon is you not understanding the Conagra culture until after you landed in the Conagra culture and here Brand Nerds. I'm going to simply say, when you are in the throes of a recruiting process, you are being, you're being just that, recruited. So they're going to tell you all the stuff you want to hear, because it's their job to get you inside of the company. You're not going to hear from them that much about what's really going down. Not that they're trying to conceal it, but if it, if it, if it's not a fit for you culturally, you may not detect that early. Here's how you find out. You got to go find folks who used to be there and that are no longer there, so they can speak freely. Talk to those people. Now you can't do that in a startup, obviously because a startup is a startup. But talk to some folks who've traversed that land so way in a real, LT: I feel this is important because we have a lot of folks in the startup community. You can find somebody who knows the founder and, or the CEO of that startup. So that, shouldn't preclude you from doing your homework there. DC: Great, great, great point. Great point, Larry. All right. Next question, Larry, you're up brother. LT: I'm up, Shannon. We're so enjoying this experience. You're you're you're fantastic. So Shannon, when it comes to technology where do you think, can you talk to us about where you think marketers should lean in or best leverage tech versus areas that they should be leary? Shannon: And, you know, when I think about technology, I think the world changed in 2020 with COVID. COVID changed the game. It changed the media landscape because, you know, people are people adopted streaming platforms and digital platforms at a much faster rate. We're five years ahead of where we were supposed to be pre-COVID. Everybody connects through social, the media platform sped up, what sped up even more, as I sit in my seat, our consumers expectations around the experience that a brand is going to deliver, because we're almost seeing that almost your experience trumps what a brand says. People want to understand how you behave. How do you act in the marketplace, how you engage with them. That is the new north star experience. And I think experience has always been there, but it's fast tracked. What's the intersection. The intersection is your route to purchase, how you're able to sign people up, how you're able to get people to buy a good using technology is almost more important then any TV spot that you're ever going to put on air or any social media posts. They're going to be left with that experience they're going to be left with, how did you make them feel? Was it easy? Are there dollars valued? That is the outcome and output of COVID and the year of social injustice, coupled with a crazy political season, people want to know their valued and that comes with the experience a brand delivers to a consumer, not what it say. LT: Wow, it's that deep. So Shannon a couple of things to hit. I just love what you said that. I think a lot of folks don't understand that what you're alluding to is the experience is, is just that it's not just this tangible thing. Like you have an insurance product that people buy and sell. It's a whole experience of what you're talking about. And when it comes to that, think of how many experiences we have as consumers that are frustrating, that annoy you. Right. And it goes to what we've talked about a lot in this show, Shannon, how the whole customer experience part of a, of a business has got to be within marketing because of what you just said. Shannon: You know, we have been, I've been reading a lot, doing a lot of just learning about what other people are doing and future organizations. The future of workforce is the complete alignment between the CIO and the CMO because if those things don't happen, your experience falls down because experiences are now delivered through technology. And we're also seeing some companies hire both Chief Experience Officers and Chief Purpose Officers, because that's the intersection. How does what you say from a marketing perspective and how you deliver it using technology align with the full experience that you're going to deliver from this brand and, oh, by the way, are you, are you walking the walk in the communities that I care about with the people I care about? We're seeing this massive convergence of brand, technology, experience, and purpose that is so different than where this industry has been. There is no playbook for this. We're all writing it as we go. LT: D, do you want to go to the next question? This is great. DC: I do. I do. Shannon. What are you most proud of? Shannon: This year has been really tough. I am most proud of my team coming out of 2020 and heading into 2021. Our team like many marketing organizations across this country had a business plan, had a list of things that we were supposed to do for the year and when we looked at our business plan leaving 2020 and heading into 2021, I felt in my bones that the actions that we were planning to take, weren't going to make a difference. I had one of those Derrick moments and we ripped up the playbook, we started from scratch and the place that we started was not, "how can I sell more Aflac?" We started from a place of "how can we be more meaningful to lives that Aflac can impact." Our team leaned all the way into the purpose of Aflac, which is to help close health and wealth gaps for communities across this country and use that as our north star for every single action that we took this year. We tore up a playbook, created a new playbook and executed only those things. That were going to truly move the needle. And now we're in a position where we are delivering great marketing work, but we're not looking at it as a campaign. We're looking at it as legacy. Legacy for this brand that can connect with people for generations to come and change people's lives for generations to come. I tell you, I wake up every day with a renewed sense of purpose every day, excited. Like what is today going to bring? Because when we took off the, the cloak of what is the next campaign and put on the armor of how can we change lives and we are so blessed to have a company that allows us to do that. I feel like my perspective changed from my day-to-day job. And I think our team got more inspired to lead with not only their hands, but their hearts to make the difference in this world. LT: And those forge emotional connections date. DC: Amen. Ashay. Shannon: So, you know, there are some specific things that we're doing that are completely different that I think people are like, okay, what the hell is Shannon? What are they doing over at Aflac? In October, we launched an initiative called Care Grants, where we pledged a million dollars between now and the end of 2022. To help people who have unpaid medical expenses because of an accident or injury. It's our way to say, you know what? Insurance is great, but insurance was never designed to cover everything. There will be a gap. And we know a lot of people don't have Aflac, but we want you to experience what it's like to have Aflac have your back. We're giving people $5,000 grants through this year. We started October 2021. We are announcing those winners in a couple of weeks and we're going to keep it going with pulse periods throughout the year. We are excited about our ability to connect with consumers and be, and use marketing and our marketing dollars to manifest the Aflac brand promise. That's number one. Number two, we are absolutely continuing to lead with our Aflac duck brand will continue to be the focus of our advertising, but we also know that the world changed after COVID. Most people aren't watching regular TV. Most people are listening to podcasts. They're listening to Spotify. They are on Hulu. They're on devices. Regular 30 second ad format can no longer sustain fully a brand. And so we asked ourselves if we want to create a different type of story, how do we do that? What's the core of it. And we said, if this is our year to really stand in our brand promise, let's create a story about care, because if we create a story that resonates with people, it doesn't have to scream Aflac. Aflac can be at the center of it. If we bring our brand promise to life in a sufficient way through the storytelling, and we set about to create an animated short. We are tremendously blessed to have the creators help us that have signed up to bring the story to life. Rob Edwards who is, who created Disney's Princess and the Frog. He stood in the gap because without him, we wouldn't have a Black Disney princess. Carl Reed is our animator. He won an Oscar for Hair Love. He's standing in the gap because he is the only Black owned animation studio in the U.S. and we are so pleased and excited that NAS, not Little NasX, but NAS legendary, Grammy-award winning, you know, everybody different. But legend the legend, the GOAT and Grammy award winning and just got nominated for another Grammy, this year. He is still relevant. He is our musical director for this short. So we've been invited to premier this at Sundance brand storytelling in January. We couldn't be more pleased. I think, you know, when we pivoted to focus on purpose, it opened the aperture for the, type of stories we can tell the type of marketing we can create the type of content and it also opened the aperture for the type of people who want to partner with us, not for a paycheck, but to help people live better lives. We started with Nick Saban, Deion Sanders signed on he's closing health and wealth gaps. Rob Edward signed on NAS signed on. So we're creating, we're turning a moment into a movement where we can really drive purpose and help people from coast to coast. LT: So glad you talked about that Shannon and thanks so much, right? DC: Important that folks know it and feel it. LT: Yes. All right. You, should we go to the next segment? DC: Let's do it right. LT: Shannon. Okay. Shannon. So we're up to the next segment here. And D, WHAT'S POPPIN'? DC: WHAT'S POPPIN? LT: This is our chance Shannon to shout out, shout down as simply air something happening in and around marketing today that we think is good fodder for discussion. So D you want to take the first one or shall I? DC: Would, would you do it? My brother please. Right. LT: So I read this just yesterday. Would love to get, the take from you and Shannon. So there's new research from, from these folks called Brand Keys that shows a massive shift in how consumers arrive at brand loyalty, with decisions that are increasingly based on emotion rather than rational consideration to said. So the findings are part of the customer loyalty experts new database analyzing 25 years of research to make predictions about what's ahead and Robert Passikoff, the founder/president, of this research company says that when he first began tracking loyalty in 1997, people made purchasing choices based on roughly 60% rational of 40% emotion. And now it is swung. He claims, the balance is now tilted to 80% emotional and 20% rational. What say you all. Shannon: I say facts. I say facts. It is, you know, after, I think after the year, a couple years we've had consumers across this country have to make really tough choices every day. They have a lot of choice with technology and I call it the Amazon effect. Everything that you can imagine is at your fingertips. The brands that will win in the future are those that can connect with people on an emotional level. Because again, it's not just about product or price. Those are table steaks. How are you impacting me as an individual and the world that I care about? That's the future. DC: I completely agree. Shannon, Larry, that announcement is akin to me, of someone saying, water is wet. Of course that's the case. Just because the three-point line and the NBA wasn't you know, put into play until I think the seventies. I think that might've been it. Wasn't when was it? , Larry. 79. It doesn't mean that there weren't plenty of three point baskets made before then. We just weren't measuring it. At that point. People have always, always been making these decisions and brands, and beyond, based on emotion. So this does not surprise me one one bit. I'm glad to hear they're more quantitative measures, for it; but life is hard. When you eliminate the time that people spend working and sleeping, there's very little time remaining to do other things. And so people want to feel good. They want to feel good about life and brands and experience can help make them feel good. If only for a moment, it can help them feel good. So I concur. I concur. LT: My only closing thought before I throw it to one of you is I think it's totally 80/20, but I don't know about 1997 being the opposite, but that's a whole other, but that's just me. DC: Shannon. Do you have one? I have one and we'll see if, if we have time for me to posit mine, but if you have one please. Shannon: Sure. And mine came from, oh, I can't even remember. I think it was November, my months have run together, but I had the esteem pleasure of being on a panel at Ad Color with one of my esteemed colleagues, Darla Price, who was the president of DDB, and she made a comment that stuck with me. She said, you know, in the industry we've gotten really used to celebrating idols and not spending enough time on celebrating the ideas. Creating and celebrating idols in marketing and advertising and not enough time creating and celebrating ideas. What say you? LT: I think that's really deep. It makes a lot of sense because I think if I'm taking it the way Darla said it, I think the idea when it's great, when it's really emotionally connecting, doesn't have to have the idol or celebrity or somebody like that attached to it. Right. And I think from what I'm reading is she's, she's really intimating that we tend to go to the idols rather than the idea first. And I think that makes, I think I totally agree. DC: Yeah, I'm going to say to this one, what Shannon said to the last one, and that is all facts. In, in Western civilization, there is an archetype of a successful person in business, entrepreneur, et cetera. And the story goes like this, there's this one guy who super brilliant and he pulled himself up by his bootstraps and he created Tesla or Microsoft or Facebook, or fill in any of these companies. Right. And that becomes a model and framework that people look towards to say, ah, the idol has done this thing. It mitigates the, the diversity of ideas. And frankly, the diversity of the people with the ideas, it's a bit like looking at a, at a vase that has this radiant array of flowers and being so captivated by the vase that you don't recognize the flowers, which are the ideas. So I agree. I agree. I am going to offer mine now and I'm just going to make mine really quick. It's about the elevating brand of HBCU the elevating brand of HBCUs. All right. So for those of you who may not know HBC use our Historically Black Colleges and Universities PWI or Predominantly White Universities. So here's the deal with HBCUs as an institution, not a brand, as an institution. They represent less than 3% of colleges and universities in this country. They enrolled 12% of all African-Americans and produced 23% of African-American graduates and confere 40% of all STEM degrees. Well, 40%, 40. 60% of all engineering degrees are owned by African-American students from HBCUs. So that's a little bit of data. Next one is at 50% of African-American teachers in this country and 40% of African-American health professionals in this country were educated at an HBCU. Okay. 70% of African-American dentists and physicians earned their degrees at HBCUs. 70%. Here's another one, 50% of all African-American lawyers in this country were educated in HBCU and 80% of the judges. LT: Wow. DC: Okay. So those are, that's the data, right? That's not new. That's been the case for decades. LT: But important data to let people know D. But yes, I agree. Thank you Larry, for saying that. What is new is the evolution of the brand of HBCU? Coach Prime made a decision to go to Jackson State University. They won the SWAC Championship last weekend, Jackson State 27 Prairieview A&M 10. So they are the SWAC Champions. Jackson State University. What Coach Prime has brought to the HBCU brand is something different. People are thinking differently about HBCUs as a brand, a collection of brands now. Kamala Harris being a graduate of how Howard University has created more luster and polished for the HBCU brand. Shannon, has led us towards that at Aflac. We're doing things with HBCUs. Pepsi just announced, Shannon's old stopping grounds, that they're doing something with HBCUs. So where before it was like a SEC, Big 10, as conferences, brands, and then schools, University of Alabama, football brand, Duke, basketball brand, Kentucky, basketball brand, HBCUs have not been a large marketing brands for the country. They are now, they are now. So that's my What's Poppin'. And I'm happy about it, as a double HBCU grad. Shannon: Overjoyed, overjoyed. DC: Long overdue. LT: Well, I just want to comment, you know, I think it's long overdue and amazing because I think for a while there folks were saying that we really still need HBCUs and clearly, and I've had the pleasure of working with the folks at CAU with, the consulting that we've done. That's been just, just outstanding for me to get an inner view other than just my wonderful partners, you, DC and Jeff Shirley. Who are double HBCU grad and undergrad grads. I'll also say something that I find interesting you brought up Prime. Shannon. I don't know if you know this, but Dion was our first celebrity endorser for Powerade. Yeah. And so got to know him quite well. And so it's so funny how we close the loop and he's a brilliant marketer. And so part of him do part of knowing him again, when he was in, he had this industry twenties, the whole Jackson State thing was brilliant on so many levels for him. Shannon: He is, you know, the more time I spend with him as a student of his, because I think he is worthy of us, really understanding him as a man, as a leader, as a game changer, I looked at him and I just, every time I'm around him, I just try to soak up everything that I can and learn from him and his intention are always pure. He is led by purpose. He is led by intention. He is led by winning. He wants to win. And so I think if you, if you look at every step of his career, that's constant, that's constant. And I think he is a great case study for taking your time, talents, and spirit and energy to help close the gap. What powerful things can happen when you can galvanize a community and a group of people all behind one vision. DC: Yeah, he's a Hall of Fame, NFL player, he's also a Hall of Fame Marketer. LT: Yep. DC: Let's get to the learning's brother Larry. LT: Want me to go first or should you? DC: Would you please man? Thank you. LT: So Shannon, you posited so many things. I'm going to try and distill it down here. The first one people business emanating from Mary Beth Stone West. When you think about as a leader, you're in the people business at all levels of leadership, and that's so huge and you got to have a diverse team, including from an experienced perspective, which is really important. I love also the whole, the Derek thing that mediocre doesn't get it. What value are you creating? That's huge. You got to have someone like that. Also the Shannon talked about Rashad. That's going to give you the true 411. The next one is, do your homework and follow your soul. The opposite of what happened with what, both my experience and Shannon with Conagra. And I just got two more. How does your brand with the experience at the center, make your customer or consumer feel and the last one winning brands connect on emotion, period. Those are mine. DC: Strong brother, strong. Shan, you know, I like threes. Then I've got three, here in our conversation with you, they all begin with the letter F. The first one is family. You felt that, when you went to undergrad, you felt that when you went to grad, you felt that when you were at Kraft and, and you have created that at Aflac, a family. So Brand Nerds, the question that I have for you all based on what Shannon has said is what kind of family do you want to join? And what kind of family do you want to create? The second F is Fisk, because that's where you first learn this notion of people wrapping their arms around you, diverse folks, all doing different things, but all being from the same family. And the final F is a Farm. You did work around farming and in Bloomington, Indiana, one could think that's about a farming area and Indiana is largely a farming area, but there's a different angle on this farming. Shannon that I got from you. And I've seen this from you over the course of three years, you like to grow crops. You like crops and the crops, the different crops are the different people, Shannon that are a part of the Aflac family. We got corn, we got sweet potatoes. Okay. We got peas. We got, we got, we got snaps. We got all kinds of different crops and they all grow together to create a wonderful family meal. So that's what I've gotten from you today Shannon. Shannon: I am truly blessed and, and, and honored to have been with you guys. This has been amazing for me. Every time I get to reflect on my career journey, it also helps me get more focused and anchored as a leader. So thank you for taking me down memory lane and reflecting back through your work, what we all must do for each other in this marketing community and in this to help each other grow and continue to flourish. So thank you for everything that you guys are doing as well. You and your team. LT: Well, that's a great way to wrap. Thank you, Shannon. We greatly appreciate it. Brand Nerds out there. Thanks for listening to Brands, Beats, & Bytes, recorded virtually on Zoom and a production of KZSU at Stanford 90.1 FM radio and worldwide at KZSU.org.. The executive producers, Jeff Shirley, Darryl "DC" Cobbin, myself, Larry Taman, Joseph Anderson, Jade Tate and Tom DIoro. DC: The podfather! LT: Yes, sir. And if you aren't listening to us via podcast, it would be great if you could please rate and review us. Additionally, if you do like the show, please subscribe and share. We hope you enjoyed this podcast and we look forward to next time, where we will have more insightful and enlightening talk about marketing with another great business leader, as our guest.