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Dog Day Afternoon · The Next Reel Film Podcast

• 0:04
  Pete Wright: I'm Pete Wright.
• 0:05
  Andy Nelson: And I'm Andy Nelson.
• 0:07
  Pete Wright: Welcome to the next reel. When the movie ends
• 0:10
  Andy Nelson: Our conversation begins.
• 0:12
  Pete Wright: Dog day afternoon is over.
• 0:13
  Attica. Attica. Attica. Attica. Attica.
• 0:16
  Attica. Attica. Attica. Attica. Attica.
• 0:19
  Attica. Welcome to DDA, Andy. DDA. Has that ever taken off? Are we the first ones to do that?
• 0:26
  We should totally do that. Dog Day Afternoon. DDA. Should we? Mhmm.
• 0:30
  Andy Nelson: Should we?
• 0:31
  Pete Wright: Yeah. I'm gonna try and
• 0:31
  Andy Nelson: that Is that what the world needs?
• 0:33
  Pete Wright: Yeah. So I don't remember what the gag was last week, but you made a a comment that seemed to indicate that I might not like Dog Day Afternoon.
• 0:44
  Andy Nelson: No. I think the comment was that because you were so surprised, like, literally every movie of this series that we have been watching, including Night Moves, our member bonus episode, like, you've been surprised about all of them. Going, I can't believe that I'm actually liking all of these movies. And so I thought, wouldn't it be funny if the one movie that we get to that I know you'd already seen because you are the first person who showed this showed me this movie. Knew, like I said, wouldn't it be funny if that's the one you're like, one star.
• 1:16
  That movie doesn't hold up at all.
• 1:19
  Pete Wright: That's good. That's a good bit. That would be funny. I wish I could I wish I could make good on that bit because that would be funny, but it is not true. Oh my god.
• 1:28
  Dog Day Afternoon. Where does this movie live in your psyche, in your heart, in your soul?
• 1:33
  Andy Nelson: I haven't seen Dog Day Afternoon probably as many times as you have since, like I said, you were the one who actually showed me this movie. So it's a movie that I've always enjoyed since, since seeing it. And I I mean, Pacino, Cazal, it's just it's like a a such a strong group of actors delivering on such an interesting story. And it's it's a bank robbery film, you know, bank robbery gone wrong. Plus we have more humor than you would probably expect in a film like this, and just incredible rich characters.
• 2:13
  Yeah. It's it's a film that, like, I haven't watched a lot in my life. But in general, when I watch it, I'm just pretty amazed by the strength of it. It's just such a strong, strong film. And it's I mean, that's the reason that in the scope of this series, you know, that I had put together this series where we're looking at films that are celebrating their fiftieth anniversary this year, and pioneering visions in global cinema, this is the one that I picked that was a US based film.
• 2:43
  Yeah. Not counting Night Moves, which is, you know, our members voted on as one of our member bonus episodes. But so there's a reason that I think that this film stands up as a strong representative of a film with pioneering vision in global cinema.
• 2:57
  Pete Wright: Well, it's also a film that is truly representative. I mean, it it, yeah, it rep represents The US. It also represents the uniqueness, I think, of New York. You might call it unique New York. Unique New York.
• 3:11
  It it falls in a really interesting place for Sydney, you know, Sydney Lumi between Serpico and network, and it captures, I think, the sentiment of these New Yorkers, the communities that that rally in support of the robbers, and the police who rally against and the complexity of these very human relationships trying to unravel this knot that they've walked themselves into by attempting to rob this bank. I I find it a really an an incredible experience watching this movie. It's been a long time since I watched it. I love that this excuse exists to put it on and put it on in the headset and and and really just sort of fall in love with it again. One star.
• 4:05
  Andy Nelson: Good. I'm glad I'm glad you fulfilled the jokes. So thank you. Well, okay. So I mean, it's a it's a really interesting film because it's based on a a real story that had happened a few years earlier.
• 4:22
  And in this particular situation, what's funny is, you know, we have just as a side note, we have two actors who had worked together before, Al Pacino and John Cazal. They had I mean, John Cazal had his incredible run of incredible films that he worked in before he died. Two of which were the Godfather films that he did with Al Pacino. And interestingly enough, before the real bank robbers actually went into the bank to steal this money, they had just watched The Godfather again, which I think is just a weird little bit of of kismet that these two actors end up playing these two criminals. But, I mean, we have a story about a man who had been married and then divorced and now was married to a man.
• 5:18
  So was out, was gay, and his new husband wanted to have a sex change operation. And so there's this whole element of him wanting to steal this money to pay for that. Now it's like in any story that starts with this is based on a true story. Based is really kind of the operative word. It doesn't mean that it's exactly the true story.
• 5:43
  And we certainly have changes here. As it sounds like the money that the real person was probably stealing the money for was because he owed money to the mob. And so it's a little bit different.
• 5:57
  Pete Wright: Interestingly, he owed money to the godfather. It's just a circle of life.
• 6:02
  Andy Nelson: Right. Exactly. Exactly. But I think that's another element that makes this film stand out so much is because we have this this bank robber who just seems very real. And then we find out that he's gay, and he's married to a man who wants to have a sex change operation.
• 6:18
  And suddenly, it's like, oh, there's another layer to this that just happened to be here. And it just makes for that much more of a rich story as we're getting this sense of the story. And Frank Pearson talked about this element. Frank Pearson is the screenwriter, talked about this element of latching on to the character of Sunny as this person who just wanted to fix everybody. And you can really see that play out, and that's kind of the theme of the story.
• 6:48
  This man who just wants to fix people. Right? He wants to fix his husband. He still wants to, you know, fix everything with his wife. He wants to fix everything with the tellers who need to go to the bathroom.
• 7:01
  Like, he's constantly trying to make things work for people, and I think that's an interesting element to his character that we see that, you know, we don't often see in bank robber types of characters.
• 7:11
  Pete Wright: Yeah. For sure. And and I think the the pairing of these two characters, Sal and Sunny, is it it becomes one of you know, I I wanna call it one of the great pairs of of criminals movies. Right? Butch and Sundance.
• 7:29
  And yet they're they're not great. They're not great. Sal is Sal is in a rough state pretty much the entire time, but it does offer some of the the great moments, the great exchanges of humanity between these two. When you talk about how Sal got there, how Sal reminds Sunny, you promised me we'd get away clean. Yet again, to your point, exemplifying Sunny's efforts to fix Sal.
• 7:57
  Right? Like, I'm I'm gonna make things right by you. I promise you this will be okay. I'm gonna I'm gonna take you on a journey. I just need you to trust me, which is his entire MO.
• 8:07
  So we're we're jumping into just a slice of that, but it's what this sort of verite humanism makes Sunny feel so real and grounded because of all of the subtext of the befores and afters that we get a slice that might be the most important slice and clearly the best slice to demonstrate this kind of character of his life that we get dropped into in this in this film. The what country do you wanna go to, Sal, Wyoming bit. Apparently, an improvised line, one of the great scenes of the film. It's just it it's heart wrenching.
• 8:45
  Andy Nelson: Those little moments from John Casal really make his character shine. Like, this watch I mean, I always love watching Pacino at work in this film. But on this watch, it was really Kazal that just I I couldn't get enough of. He's such a quiet character. He feels so lost and just kind of stuck and trying to figure out how to do all of this and just kind of going along with whatever he needs to.
• 9:10
  But in that panic state, because like, oh my god, everything's going wrong, which like you kind of talked about when in his conversations with with Sonny, who's trying to, you know, make everything right for him. And that was one of those moments where, you know, okay, let's get a get them to give us a jet, and we'll fly to another country. And when he says Wyoming, I mean, it is hilarious, but also is just like heartbreaking because this is a person who just doesn't know really kind of the world around him. He's never been on a plane. And so the idea of going somewhere else is just like, Wyoming is as foreign to him as Algeria.
• 9:45
  You know? Yeah. It's Also, Algeria. Well, it seemed to just pop in his head because it's warmer. But yeah.
• 9:55
  Yeah. It does make you wonder.
• 9:57
  Pete Wright: You're going to Algeria.
• 10:00
  Andy Nelson: Oh, man. The the other
• 10:01
  Pete Wright: thing that I think stands out for me on this watch is just how attentive they were to making this feel like we're a part of the heist. Right? The look and feel of this thing just puts me in the space of newsreel footage. It puts me in the space of bearing witness as if I was watching the event as it turned out, you know, as people turned out on the street corners from my apartment in New York City. Like, it just felt like I was a part of it.
• 10:28
  And I think a lot of that goes to a lot of handheld choices, a lot of really long lenses shooting across the street through windows. There is a sequence where he's on the phone with Sarandon, and they're talking through windows, and the camera seems to be from POV. And it's just quick clips that end up, you know, making me feel so voyeuristic to this crime. And that goes a long way toward making it toward making it a a cohesive universe. Right?
• 10:59
  You talk we talk about world building. I don't know. It's been a long time since we've maybe used the words world building. This one feels like they are rebuilding the real life world for me and took me took me right back there.
• 11:11
  Andy Nelson: Well, I think a lot of that goes to Lumet directing this who had that had the smarts to recognize we can't do this on a stage. Like, it's not gonna work if we do it on a stage because it's there's so much in and out going on. Like, we have to be able to cut. We have to be able to follow someone through the doors. We have to be able to see from inside out the windows to everything going on the streets.
• 11:39
  Like those things we need to make happen. And so they found in New York an actual empty building that they were able to turn into a bank and film. And and the the whole street, they really kind of ended up kind of controlling that whole thing, which is exactly what they needed because it really feels like we are on a street just somewhere in New York City where this is actually taking place. Like, there is such authenticity with that real world location shooting that just builds it to something that does have that verisimilitude.
• 12:19
  Pete Wright: The location they got, it's I mean, it ends up being this tiny hole in the wall neighborhood bank. It feels so intimate to Brooklyn that why does this little tiny slice of brick exist to did exist to serve this just very local population, and these guys are going in to violate it. Right? That is the the ultimate sort of pain and promise of of the story. The fact that Sonny ends up building such a an unintentional following, and the fact that going in, to your point about his efforts to fix people, the fact that he goes in and is able to build such sort of camaraderie with the people that he's robbing is a really fascinating portrayal of of Stockholm syndrome, right, of this of of these bank tellers who, you know, sure they're scared, but also there are points where they're all hanging around eating pizza that they seem like genuine friends.
• 13:23
  What a what a weird turn this movie takes.
• 13:27
  Andy Nelson: That which really is from the beginning. And, yeah, I mean, it's important. We're talking about kind of just, like, the strength of the cast. But, I mean, I I think having Penelope Allen as Shirley, the the main teller, who is very protective of her girls as she says. Like, I'm not leaving without my girls.
• 13:45
  Like, she won't when the cops say, just come. You're already outside. And she's like, no. I've gotta protect my girls. And we have those moments with her where she's very much, like, kind of in the in Sunny's face as they're kind of like having these confrontations even though she's acknowledges that she's scared and everything.
• 14:03
  But you really feel that she's real and she there is this sense of her as an actual teller in this situation trying to take care of her girls as she says. And you also have moments where you get this sense of stardom that these people have and, you know, how starstruck they are in a situation like this. Because she's the one who, while she's outside one time, some reporters who somehow got into the floor right above them have the cameras out the window and are talking to her. She goes back inside. She's just like, I was just interviewed.
• 14:38
  Like, she's so excited, and it's so funny. And then later, you have Sunny teaching, which one is it, Miriam how to do the military kick with the gun and twirl and then that whole
• 14:54
  Pete Wright: And hands her his gun.
• 14:56
  Andy Nelson: Right. Right. She's literally holding his gun. And it's it's crazy how familiar and friendly they all become over the course of this. And it it's it's humanizing to see them.
• 15:09
  Now they're not necessarily doing that with with Sal. And I I think the, you know, the most telling moment of that is when when Sylvia decides to have a cigarette. And and Sal has this conversation with her. You really shouldn't start. It's you know, you're you're ruining your temple.
• 15:29
  Your body is your temple of of God. Like, that conversation is so just telling about Sal's place in all of this. He's not somebody who can just get along with the people and everything. And I think that also speaks to perhaps, which we'll, I'm sure, talk about, but the relationship that the FBI end up having and their view of things.
• 15:55
  Pete Wright: Yeah. That I think the I mean, I don't know. Tell me what you think. But I to me, it it reads very much like we're we're dealing with an FBI that has a sense of disdain for the Brooklyn populace, and that counts against the police as well as the the, you know, guys robbing the actual bank. Like, these guys came in, and they're they're not they're not necessarily pleasant.
• 16:19
  They're kept at a distance that we don't get, you know, with the the local police. Yeah. Like sergeant Moretti. Yeah. Yeah.
• 16:28
  And, you know, they sort of cut through what we what what the whole movie builds, the sort of theme of the movie. We're talking about just spectacle, the media, the robbery is this live action fantasy about attention, and Sonny learns over time to program the street to act on his behalf. Right? And he gets big groups coming out to support him, especially when they find out he's gay. And then we lose that in the conflict that exists between the institution of the FBI and Sunny's own sort of individual individual spotlight that is growing.
• 17:08
  And all of that sort of buckles under federal procedure, And it's federal procedure that gets Sal killed ultimately in the end. It's federal procedure that causes them to start playing, you know, tricks to get these guys out into the airport. And it's only that Sunny is pretty quick witted that he's able to kind of keep up for most of the movie and get things working out his way. Even though we see the airport being stacked with police over the course of the entire film as they're making the call for their jet. It still feels like Sunny and Sal are ahead of the game until the very bitter end.
• 17:54
  Andy Nelson: Well, it definitely felt like they could have actually made it. But again, this plays into the relationship or not the relationship, but it plays into the personality types of Sunny and Sal. And Sal is incredibly nervous, and he's like kind of I don't know. This whole thing kind of breaks him in a way. And so by the time they get into the car or to the bus, the limo bus, he's he feels so out of place that he's doing what the FBI guy says.
• 18:26
  You know? And, you know, Lance Henriksen in a like, his first feature film as, agent Murphy is driving the bus and keeps telling him, now, Sonny, point your gun up so if it goes off, it doesn't, or if we hit a bump, you don't accidentally shoot me shoot me. And he keeps listening to him. And it's like, if he was in it because he was a and I mean, it sounds like Sal had been in prison before. Because at the beginning, he's like, can't go back there.
• 18:54
  I can't go back to prison. But obviously, he wasn't somebody who was like a hardcore big time criminal because this whole thing, he's just he's doing yeah. Oh, you're right. Okay. And he's listening to what the FBI guy says, which had he been in it because he was actually a hardcore burglar or thief, he wouldn't have done that.
• 19:18
  And it's entirely possible they would have gotten all those people onto the jet and gotten out of the country. It's just that they're not they're they're inept. They're just they don't understand the bigger machine at work. Well well, neither of them really do.
• 19:33
  Pete Wright: And they don't understand how how fast Bishop's resort re reflexes are. Like, they just they didn't know he was he was a synth. Yeah. Alright. Alright.
• 19:46
  Andy Nelson: Oh my goodness.
• 19:48
  Pete Wright: It was really fun seeing Lance Henriksen in this role. I had forgotten. I don't think I'd ever made the connection as many times as I've seen the movie. I don't think I'd ever made the connection that that was Lance driving the the final the final stretch. Yeah.
• 20:01
  Fantastic.
• 20:02
  Andy Nelson: We also see oh, I'm gonna forget his name, but he was in he was in die hard two. He was the remember, like, outside, there's the cop who gives him gives John McClain a ticket? Mhmm. And he's like, you know, come on, man. It's Christmas.
• 20:20
  And he and he's like, merry Christmas. And he gives him the ticket, and he finds out that he's actually the, like, the cousin or the brother of Yeah. One of the guys from the first movie. That same actor is like a bit part cop in this. Oh, how funny.
• 20:35
  Pete Wright: I didn't make that connection. This was the bit at the beginning at Stapleton in Die Hard two?
• 20:40
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. Well, the whole thing was at Stapleton. Yes. But yes. In the he we see him later because they go back out to the cars at some
• 20:46
  Pete Wright: point. Yeah. I didn't I did not make that connection either. How funny. Yeah.
• 20:51
  Okay. So the the last piece I wanna make sure we we hit on is the fact that this movie does make a a seventies effort toward queering in the mainstream. Right? The fact that that Sonny's motive is to help his trans partner afford gender affirming surgery is an an extraordinary watch right now in 2025.
• 21:16
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. It does make me wonder if there are certain people who just are no longer interested in in what this movie has to say because Yeah. The the how how divided the country is right now. But I I I think for this particular time now for 1975, for a film 50 years old, you still listen to, like, the directors, the screenwriters, the people involved talking about it, and they don't sound nearly as like, you you still like, okay. I appreciate that they're working to tell the story this way.
• 21:52
  I appreciate that they went so far as to reach out to, like, gay rights groups and had them read the script and look at the performance to make sure that it came across okay and that it wasn't a problem. Like, there's nothing problematic in any of it. And everybody was very happy with it. It but it's still yeah. You can hear when people talk about it, like, Lumet in in, archival interviews and stuff.
• 22:15
  So they're like yeah. I mean, it is fifty years ago. But still, by today's standards, it's pretty impressive that we have this story about a trans character, and none of it is treated, as a joke. Like, there was a point where in the script, the conversation between between Sunny and Leon was actually at the door of the bank, and there's a kiss involved. And and Pacino talked to Pearson, the writer, it's just like, I just feel like by doing this, it's it's you're you're kind of almost forcing the issue even more when it's just like it's a relationship.
• 22:54
  It's on the rocks. They're not gonna be kissing each other because that's just not how it would play. Like, if you're breaking up with somebody, you're not kissing each other. And so and then they they came to the idea of just doing it on the phone, and everything ended up playing. And so it just they found a natural way to do it where you it just it's characters, and never are we getting caricatures.
• 23:15
  And they worked really hard to keep it from that.
• 23:18
  Pete Wright: Right. And, I mean, look at how Sarandon plays it. Plays it, I think, more I I don't wanna say stereotypically feminized, but but he certainly plays it more to one end of a of a spectrum that we already had gotten in film before. It's it's muted maybe because of the fact that he was living in an asylum and that he clearly his mental health was in some question. But Pacino's portrayal is exactly what you need to bounce off of that.
• 23:50
  Right? Exactly what you need to remind you that his act is a desperate shot. This whole heist is this desperate shot toward domestic care in a society with no pathways to dignity. Right? Like, that's what Leon has is no pathway to dignity.
• 24:13
  Because of who he is, he has to live in this asylum and have his his entire identity questioned. And Pacino is the representation who becomes famous through this act in his own sort of Brooklyn way, becomes famous for essentially for being gay and for acting out in a way that supports that relationship. And I think whatever I I almost think the movie succeeds as that represent representation in spite of whatever Sidney Lumet has ever said about about it in archive interviews. Like, the movie stands up in spite of the
• 24:55
  Andy Nelson: creators, perhaps. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Although I I do have one question that I I haven't really I haven't seen, discussed much, but I am curious as to how you read it. At the point it's like the whole element of Leon coming down at this point, it still is largely, sergeant Moretti, Charles Durning, who's kind of in charge of things, who gets Leon down there.
• 25:25
  They have a conversation and everything. It's after that point that things switch over to the FBI. Right? And we have James Broderick's agent Sheldon. And and that's where the conversations start changing, becoming more serious.
• 25:38
  He comes in for the little tour. And as he leaves, he he kind of whispers to Sunny, don't you worry about Sal. We'll take care of Sal. And you start getting this sense. Okay.
• 25:50
  What how is the FBI reading this? Are they simply trying to play him against Sal? Which I mean, he's just like, hey. I'm not gonna stab him in the back or whatever he says. Like, what is the reading there?
• 26:03
  Is it are we suddenly reading this because the FBI sees that this is a gay man who's actually holding up the bank? Sal is the one who's hiding behind the pillars with the gun on them and everything. It looks much more serious because he's scared and quiet. Is the FBI's interpretation The gay guy clearly can't be behind this. It's Sal who's the guy we need to take down.
• 26:28
  Like, how do you read that? What's the interpretation we're meant to get that the FBI at that point, after Leon comes, they have the conversation, the FBI focuses in on Sal the rest of the time.
• 26:42
  Pete Wright: It's interesting because it implies a number of things. The the initial read is that FBI goes into the bank, has an exchange with Sal that gives him more concern than any of his exchanges with Sonny. Right? That Sonny seems like the cooler head of the two. And because of Sal's sort of quietude, because of his intensity, he feels like a bigger threat than Sunny.
• 27:10
  And by extension, maybe is implying that Sunny was somehow coerced into doing this by Sal in the background and somehow reads this that that Sunny is the one who is potentially in danger or maybe looking for a way out or trying to plant that seed. Sunny, it's okay. We got you. We'll take care of Sal. We'll get you out of this.
• 27:37
  I never I never connected the homosexuality with with that exchange.
• 27:44
  Andy Nelson: And and I don't know if we're meant to or if that's something that is there. I mean, we could see it that way. Yeah. But it's it's not brought up. It's not it's not voiced.
• 27:55
  But it is it just because Sunny is somebody that they see and they have a read of him? And again, he's a person who's trying to fix things. And he's when he's having these conversations, he's also trying to, like, you know, I'm gonna release a hostage. He he really comes across as a guy who's not intent on hurting people. So, yeah.
• 28:17
  I don't know. It's it was just an interesting thought in my head that I had this time as I was watching it. Like, I wonder if that was meant to be an element that we're supposed to be thinking about.
• 28:27
  Pete Wright: Yeah. It's it's so interesting because at that point, Sal is really hardening. Like, we're in in the middle of Sal hardening into fatalism. Right? He's just done, and he's ready.
• 28:37
  He's getting ready to admit that he'll lose his own life rather than go back to prison, and he'll take all these people with him. Yeah. It while Sunny is evolving into this sort of, as we've said, caretaker fatigue. Right? He's he had this performative bravado, and everything's gone the wrong direction.
• 28:56
  And so he's just trying to make everybody walk out happy.
• 29:01
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. It's an interesting Yeah. Element to the story for sure.
• 29:07
  Pete Wright: Well, the fact that all of this like, it's so the movie is once a procedural. Right? We're we're watching how the the the law enforcement of all stripes handles this situation. At at some point, it's crazy. I mean, it it it's comedic, the number of police they have in this location.
• 29:31
  It's hysterical. It felt like the Blues Brothers. Right? Like, just ridiculous number of police. What is going on in the rest of the city?
• 29:41
  Yeah. Because all the police are at this bank.
• 29:43
  Andy Nelson: Good time to rob another bank.
• 29:45
  Pete Wright: Right. Yeah. Right. So that sort of procedural spine, constantly negotiating, going back and forth, is always disrupted by deeply personal stuff. Right?
• 29:56
  Family arrival, his mother standing in the street. And and I think this is a this is one of those things when you look at particularly the cycle of of Sidney Lumet's films that that we get to watch how systems destroy people, like network being, I think, the pinnacle of this of this particular thesis, that individuals will always break under the weight of the institution. And there is no out. There is no exit. No safety.
• 30:32
  They will always break under the institution. Not a not a film that necessarily screams goodwill toward our fellow human.
• 30:42
  Andy Nelson: That's interesting and and worth talking about the fact that and going back to the whole thing that you started the show with, like, he's screaming Attica. This is you know, that was a particular situation that happened at a at a prison where, as he said, like, the police, there's a a riot, and the police just kind of, you know, shot a bunch of people. And like a lot of people died leaving just the general populace feeling uncomfortable about the control that the cops had. Right? That whole thing led to more focus on prisoner prisoner rights and everything.
• 31:19
  And here we have a situation where it's the little people who are struggling and who are trying to steal some money to get ahead in life. And the cops, like, as you said, the show of force is insane. And we have these people, these little people standing up, trying to show how difficult this system is to get ahead. And I think that's once he starts screaming that to the crowd early on, you can see why it becomes like this rallying cry, and why the crowd, even after they find out that he's gay, really gets behind him as a representation of fighting the power. Yeah.
• 32:02
  And I think that's such an interesting element that we have on top of everything else going on with this film.
• 32:08
  Pete Wright: I do too. I think it's fascinating the way we are brought in to specifically take a side. And at the same time, like, I'm I I it's easy to joke about the number of police there, but the police themselves are not a are not a joke. Right? They're we're not lampooning law enforcement.
• 32:27
  Right? We're we're seeing law enforcement try to do exactly what they can do, and yet the system itself does not have the tools to deal with these kinds of people. Right? The system itself does not know how to deal with people who are trying who are motivated by a lack of, this kind of lack of dignity. It makes it weirdly sweet.
• 32:53
  And the script, I I think, that is really interesting. Right? The the the whole who he's married to bit is played as a rug pull. They say get his wife down here, and the next person who comes down is Leon. They went to the to the asylum and got Leon.
• 33:08
  That is something that I I think comes out of the blue. There was no setup that that that exists because the only setup we had before is we meet his ex wife, but we don't know that she's an ex wife at that point.
• 33:23
  Andy Nelson: Well and that happens right after he says, get my wife down here. We cut to the cops showing up at her house. So At her house? It really it really sets it up. Like, that's who we're gonna see brought down here.
• 33:34
  And so it's an interesting surprise. And it it definitely plays as a rug pull, which I think is just a smart way to kind of tell the story. Now it did sound like, I don't know. It sounded like he was still married to her in the context of the film. Like, he was married to both of them.
• 33:52
  Although it sounds like, you know, the with the the priest getting defrocked after the gay marriage, I don't I think that would have been less legal and more just kind of a a symbolic Yeah. Marriage that really wouldn't have mattered. So
• 34:08
  Pete Wright: Yeah. I I think that's true. I I think that's a really good point. My sense is there, he is still married to this woman who who is the mother of his children.
• 34:16
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. Right. Right.
• 34:17
  Pete Wright: Right. But they are probably not together.
• 34:20
  Andy Nelson: Now that's interesting because the real character, John, I don't know how to say his last name, Wat Watowicz. He was he saw the film. You know, it took it took him a while to agree to give them the rights to his story. He was well, and mostly it was because they weren't gonna give him enough money. He was very clearly always has been focused on money.
• 34:45
  After, I guess, he saw the film, he wrote a letter in the New York Times saying that the movie is only about 30% accurate. And the thing that bothered him the most, in fact, he would later go on to sue the filmmakers, is the portrayal of his wife or his ex wife because they portrayed her as a plain overweight woman whose behavior led to his relationship with Eden that that becomes Leon's name once he does actually get his gender surgery. When in fact, he'd he'd left her two years before when he first met Eden. He also felt that he wanted people to know he never spoke to his mother. The police refused to let him to speak to his wife, Carmen, and insinuated that he had sold out, Sal to the police.
• 35:34
  He said a lot of this was untrue. And although he loved Pacino and Sarandon and their portrayals of them. Yeah. So he would actually go on to sue them and ended up losing because all of the characters' names were changed except for Sal's. Sal's name was the only character's name that wasn't changed.
• 35:55
  And so the judge said, there's nothing in it that is actually connecting it to you or your wife specifically. And so there's no there's no causing harm.
• 36:07
  Pete Wright: That's a little bit of a stretch, don't you think? There's nothing connecting this to you.
• 36:12
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. I it you know, the legal system, what are
• 36:16
  Pete Wright: you gonna do? Mean, come on.
• 36:21
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. But because of all the money he got paid for getting this movie made, he was able to give that to Leon who was able to actually have his successful surgery. Outstanding. And is now living as Eden, Elizabeth Eden.
• 36:36
  Pete Wright: That's really great.
• 36:37
  Andy Nelson: Or or was, I should say, I think died in the eighties of complications with AIDS.
• 36:44
  Pete Wright: Oh, what a story. The movie serves as an interesting template. Right? I mean, it this this whole heist as a human kind of instant pot is is an interesting template that we get again in movies like Inside Man, Spike Lee. We get in Reservoir Dogs, obviously, in network.
• 37:09
  The the film, I think, sets the stage for a pivot in how we handle heist films, you know, as we come out of the seventies. And it it as such, it's earned a a really special place, I think, for me. Yeah. I think in cinema.
• 37:26
  Andy Nelson: Well, it's definitely interesting in the scope of heist films. Right? Because, you know, in in the world of heist films, generally, the heist film focuses on the job. Generally, they're successful. And then it's, are they gonna get caught or not?
• 37:44
  Kind of ends up being the the way that heist films go. I feel like the smaller, I guess, you could almost say a subgenre within the heist subgenre is the heist film where they actually get stuck at the bank and have to take hostages. Like, that feels like an even smaller element of heist films where we don't see that as often. But I think it makes it very interesting when it's really the focus is the people at the bank, how do they actually get through all of the stuff that's, that they're dealing with with the whole hostage? It's it's maybe more of like a hostage subgenre.
• 38:26
  Right?
• 38:26
  Pete Wright: Yeah. You're right. Maybe a bank hostage subgenre. Yeah. Okay.
• 38:33
  We've Very specific. Very, very specific. Great.
• 38:35
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. Yeah.
• 38:37
  Pete Wright: Well, I I don't know. What else do you wanna what else do you wanna dig into? You feel like we've captured your
• 38:43
  Andy Nelson: This is one of these films where Lumet decided no score, no film score with it.
• 38:49
  Pete Wright: Oh, yeah.
• 38:50
  Andy Nelson: And I always think that's an interesting decision that filmmakers make because, I mean, I think it could have absolutely worked with a score. Like, I I don't think I have a particular issue either way when a filmmaker chooses to use a score in their film or chooses to not use a score in their film, as long as it ends up working. And in most cases, I think it works. I don't think I can think of I can think of very few examples. I mean, I can think of examples where a score didn't work because they just had music that doesn't play in the way that they did the film.
• 39:24
  But generally, I don't have a problem that fact that they used score. Likewise, it I mean, it's a much smaller pool, but I can't think of many films that that didn't use a score where I have an issue.
• 39:36
  Pete Wright: Okay. I'm trying to understand what that what that point is. Is that does that mean you like this one?
• 39:43
  Andy Nelson: No. I do. Well, that's what
• 39:44
  Pete Wright: I'm saying.
• 39:45
  Andy Nelson: Like, I I think I think it's very successful in
• 39:47
  Pete Wright: Yeah.
• 39:48
  Andy Nelson: The fact that he made this decision. And in the case of this story, it works really well.
• 39:54
  Pete Wright: Yeah. Especially coming off, like, the the only non diegetic sound we get is Amarina. Yeah. At the John Trash.
• 40:03
  Andy Nelson: It turns out to be coming from the car radio.
• 40:05
  Pete Wright: Well, you're right. You're right.
• 40:06
  Andy Nelson: And so it is diegetic.
• 40:08
  Pete Wright: It is diegetic. So we get we get just that one song, and from then on out, it's it's just what you hear in the world. And that's another thing that brings us right into sort of the televised documentarian approach that that I think makes it so successful. I'm I'm right with you. I I really enjoy it.
• 40:26
  I I enjoy being that part of it. I don't I think I I think part of that decision has to be that muse a score would have felt like a hat on a hat, like overly manipulative because we're already so invested in the in the performative success of these guys. Like, let them have their day on screen. We don't need music to tell me, you know, how to feel at this point. They're already too good.
• 40:58
  And that feels like a very lumet thing to do at this air in this era.
• 41:03
  Andy Nelson: Although it's it's funny because, you know, the films that you mentioned, Serpico, Network, they both have scores. He also did Murder on the Orient Express right before this that has a score. Has a score?
• 41:16
  Pete Wright: You know, Love and Molly, he also did right before this, has a score. But interesting choices, though. I mean, think of the biggest moments of Network. They don't have a score. The the Ned Beatty speech, no score behind that scene.
• 41:29
  It's just let the guy perform. And this may be sort of the peak of that, but it it's not like he doesn't have a sense for when to use music and when not to.
• 41:41
  Andy Nelson: No. Absolutely. So it's I just think it shows the sign of a skilled director to understand when you can get away without using a score.
• 41:54
  Pete Wright: Was this what you know, Simi Lemaitre's been making movies a long time. What do you think his peak era was?
• 42:01
  Andy Nelson: Wow. Well, the sixties were pretty good for him. Seventies were really good for him. I mean, eighties, let's see. I mean, I'd say still some strong stuff, maybe not as much.
• 42:20
  I mean, he's also prolific. Like in the in the fifties, he's got 12 angry men and stage struck, that kind of woman. The sixties, he's got one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, 11 films in the sixties. The July, 01/02, 03/2010, 11, also in the seventies. Eighties, one, two, 03/04, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten.
• 42:48
  And then from there, he slows down the nineties and then just just two in the odds. I don't know. I mean, it's hard to completely say because there's also a lot I haven't seen. Sure. You know?
• 43:00
  I don't know. What would you say?
• 43:02
  Pete Wright: I don't know. I mean, part of it, you you know, part of it feels like he he makes great movies across the board. But when I look at this era, sort of the fifties, sixties, seventies, it feels like a filmmaker that exists at the right cultural era to be making the kinds of movies that are aesthetically appropriate for for his visual language, right, for his his cinematic language. And other movies that that he makes are outstanding as we get out of the, you know, out of the seventies into the eighties. There are some really great movies, some of my favorite.
• 43:42
  Death Trap. Oh my goodness. The verdict. Fantastic. But I don't know that any of them speak as well to the era in which the films are being made as the films that that Lumet made in the sixties and seventies.
• 43:59
  I'm with you, though. I don't know that I could make that comment, you know, as thoroughly as I want to because I haven't seen so many of his films, but this formative high art decades that these formative high art decades were awesome.
• 44:14
  Andy Nelson: I mean, I yeah. And I I that's I guess what I'm trying to say is, like, in the sixties, he did a lot of films. I've only seen three of the films that he directed in the sixties. In the seventies, I've seen five, so I've seen more. But still, that's six I haven't seen.
• 44:28
  So it's possible that he's just he's just so prolific that he's got lots of peaks and valleys. It's just that his peaks are excellent, and they're they're really stand out. You know?
• 44:40
  Pete Wright: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and and I mean, all the way up to 02/2007, I thought before the devil knows you're dead was extraordinary. And as a as a final stamp on an incredible career, what a film.
• 44:53
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. No kidding. It's a shame that that we lost him earlier than we should have. Didn't he died in a car crash, right, as I recall? Ugh.
• 45:03
  I think that's what happened.
• 45:04
  Pete Wright: Well, he died it did did he die in a car crash? He was 86. So it it wasn't like
• 45:09
  Andy Nelson: Oh, no. It's lymphoma. Which director died in the car crash around that point? I don't know. Oh, I bet it was Pacula.
• 45:17
  Oh. Yeah. Okay. One of these directors that we celebrate from the seventies. Yeah.
• 45:23
  Anyway, extraordinary. Yeah. No. It's it's such a great film. I absolutely absolutely love it.
• 45:31
  I'm glad to have seen it again. Glad it was on this list. So
• 45:36
  Pete Wright: Me too.
• 45:38
  Andy Nelson: And it was Alan j Pakula who died 11/19/1988 driving on the Long Island Expressway when a driver in front of him hit a metal pipe causing it to crash through Pecula's windshield and strike him in the head.
• 45:50
  Pete Wright: Oh my god. Yep. Yep. And that's a Final Destination. It's awful.
• 45:56
  Andy Nelson: It's absolutely awful. So
• 45:58
  Pete Wright: Oh my god.
• 46:00
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. That's I I it was I knew it was one of these seventies these directors of the great seventies films. So
• 46:06
  Pete Wright: That is horrible. Alright. Well, I don't care for knowing that.
• 46:09
  Andy Nelson: Well, now you do. Sorry. Well done. Alright. We'll be right back.
• 46:15
  But first, our credits.
• 46:29
  Pete Wright: The next reel is a production of True Story FM, engineering by Andy Nelson, music by Sandy Pierce, Shahar Haziza, Anthony Vega, Oriole Novella, and Eli Catlin. Andy usually finds all the stats for the awards in numbers at d-numbers.com, boxofficemojo.com, indb.com, and wikipedia.org. Find the show at truestory.fm. If your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show. This is Pete Wright reporting from Downtown Synophilia, where witnesses say a great steal is in progress.
• 47:15
  The suspect, unfortunately, it's you walking off with 20% off Letterboxd when you join or renew with the code NEXT REAL. Authorities confirm the haul includes ad free browsing, advanced stats that actually tell your film life story, your most watched actors, directors, genres, and decades, plus that glorious year in review breakdown. You'll humble brag about all January. Onlookers report slick watch list tools, including filtering by streaming service, so you can see what's available tonight. And the full social suite, log every film, keep a diary, build and share lists, follow friends, and trade reviews without algorithm drama.
• 47:57
  We're also hearing whispers of patron perks, early access features, shiny patron badge, even a profile backdrop so you can look as sharp as your takes. Again, the code is next real for 20% off when you join or renew. If loving movies is a crime, consider this your perfect getaway. Pete, back to you. Andy, we're on sequels and remakes now.
• 48:24
  Have you seen any of the remakes dare I say, the sequel to Dog Day Afternoon?
• 48:34
  Andy Nelson: I have not. I so let me go through the list. Alright. So starting off, 1977, just a few years later, over in Italy, we know the Italians love to rip off these films that are successful and make their own.
• 48:47
  Pete Wright: We had
• 48:48
  Andy Nelson: Operacionne Capa, Sparate Avista, loosely based on Dog Day Afternoon. 1987, over in Hong Kong, we had an action film, Yan Man Ying Hung or People's Hero, which was a remake of it. And then a few other interesting elements. Hank Azaria, when he was doing his audition to get a role on The Simpsons, he actually imitated Pacino's voice from this film for his audition. That voice actually would end up being the basis for Moe, the care one of the many characters that he does in the Simpsons.
• 49:24
  And then interestingly, there was an episode of the Simpsons, where there was a bank robbery featuring Sonny and Sal that was titled, I don't wanna know why the caged bird sings. Fantastic. Fantastic title. We've talked about Inside Man on this show before. I can't remember if we mentioned this, but two of our actors, Marsha Jean Kurtz, who plays Miriam, and Lionel Pina, who plays the pizza delivery guy who is very funny.
• 49:52
  He's like, I'm an effing star. He's so funny. They actually reprise their roles as Miriam Douglas and the pizza delivery man in Inside Man, which really makes me want to watch that movie again.
• 50:05
  Pete Wright: Absolutely. A 100%.
• 50:07
  Andy Nelson: Not that it's really a surprise, but Attica Attica, kind of his screaming cry in this one, has been seen in all sorts of films, TV series. It's everywhere. It's a very popular thing. Last but not least, there is a stage adaptation set to premiere on Broadway in the 2026. And we've got Jon Bernthal and Evan Moss Bacharach, who are gonna be starring as Sunny and Sal.
• 50:33
  So that will be very interesting to see how it plays on stage.
• 50:39
  Pete Wright: You know, I gotta say, would see that. I would see that version of it with those guys.
• 50:43
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. Yeah. It's a timeless story, and it's very fitting to tell a story like that Right now. With the trans character, everything else. Yeah.
• 50:52
  Very fitting. And in the scope of everything going on with relationships with police and the government, I can see them. I can see this being something that could play quite well.
• 51:03
  Pete Wright: Well and this is an easy adaptation for stage. Right? This is a pretty contained environment.
• 51:09
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. How'd it do at award season? This one did well for itself.
• 51:13
  14 wins with 20 other nominations. Over at the Oscars, it was nominated for best picture, but lost to one Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. Same thing for best director. Lumet lost to Milos Forman. Film editing, Didi Allen was nominated but lost to Jaws.
• 51:30
  Best writing original screenplay, Frank Pearson actually won that one. Pacino was nominated for best actor but lost to Nicholson. And Chris Sarandon was nominated for best supporting actor but lost to George Burns in the Sunshine Boys. And, you know, we had just talked about Didi Allen and her editing over on Night Moves. So definitely a busy busy editor at this particular point in time.
• 51:53
  Right.
• 51:53
  Pete Wright: Right.
• 51:54
  Andy Nelson: At the Golden Globes, Cor Saranda was nominated for best acting debut in a motion picture, but lost to Brad Doref in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. Picino again lost to Nicholson. Lumet again lost director to Foreman. And the movie, motion picture drama, again lost to One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. This time, same thing with screenplay.
• 52:12
  Gazali was nominated for supporting actor as well as Charles Durning, but they lost both lost to Richard Benjamin in the Sunshine Boys. And then at the LA Film Critics Association, Pacino did win best actor. BluMet did win best director, and the picture tied winning with One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. So Okay.
• 52:31
  Pete Wright: Not a bad haul. It definitely
• 52:32
  Andy Nelson: was up against a lot of strong films.
• 52:35
  Pete Wright: Does that line up? Does its presence in the awards circle line up to its presence in the box office take?
• 52:48
  Andy Nelson: Well, this whole series, as you have called out a number of times, I have been having to adjust information just being less accurate because of its age. For this film, Lumet had between three point five and three point eight, somewhere. I it was different numbers all over the place. I'm gonna go with 3.8, which is 22,400,000.0 in today's dollars. The movie opened either 08/29/1975 or 09/21/1975, depending on who you believe.
• 53:16
  It went on to earn 46,700,000.0, though it could be 50,000,000. Then again, that might be just the rounded up version. Still, we'll say 50,000,000 for our purposes, or 294 and a half million in today's dollars. That means the film maybe landed with an adjusted profit per finished minute of 2,100,000.0, which is a fine turnout no matter the small differences in the figuring.
• 53:38
  Pete Wright: Maybe. I mean, there were people there were people alive on both August 29 and 09/21/1975. Could we ask them?
• 53:47
  Andy Nelson: We probably we'd have to find somebody who is, you know, busy paying attention to theaters. But, yes, we could ask somebody. I mean, I was alive at at the time, Pete. I just Yes. Can't ask myself.
• 53:58
  I I wasn't
• 53:59
  Pete Wright: I would not have been trusted to give you that data.
• 54:01
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. Little little too little too young.
• 54:04
  Pete Wright: What a weird black hole of numbers you find yourself in this series. That'll teach you.
• 54:12
  Andy Nelson: That's a that'll learn you. Oh, man.
• 54:15
  Pete Wright: Alright. Well, I'm thrilled that the movie's in our catalog. Kinda admit, I when you announced this series, I had to go back and think, did Andy's wrong. Surely, we've talked about Dog Day after DDA before. Alas, I'm glad we finally have rectified that great wrong.
• 54:30
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. No. It's a it's a fantastic film. I'm glad to have revisited, for the purposes of this, and find that it's just as strong now and just as relevant in today's climate as it was fifty years ago. So excellent film.
• 54:43
  Pete Wright: Do you remember where we watched it? Were we in our apartment? Were we in California? Were we
• 54:48
  Andy Nelson: in Yeah.
• 54:48
  Pete Wright: Color we were in California?
• 54:49
  Andy Nelson: In our apartment.
• 54:50
  Pete Wright: Yeah. Good old days. Alright.
• 54:54
  Andy Nelson: Yep. Good old days. Alright. That is it for today's conversation. Next week, we're closing out our Golden Jubilee series celebrating films from 1975 that are celebrating their fiftieth anniversaries.
• 55:05
  And we are going Bollywood. We're looking at Ramesh Sippi's Sholay, which also happens to be a crossover with our next series, the seven Samurai family. We'll be right back for our ratings. Alright, everybody. Freeze.
• 55:20
  This is a stick up. But I'm not here for your money. No. I'm here to tell you about the greatest value in the history of podcasting, the next real film podcast. Listen up.
• 55:29
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• 55:46
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• 55:59
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• 56:23
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• 56:30
  Pete Wright: Letterbox, Dandy. Letterbox.com/ the next reel. That's where you'll find h our HQ page. What are you gonna do for this movie?
• 56:37
  Andy Nelson: I mean, this is an easy five star in a heart. I just absolutely love this film. It's so strong. It's such an exhilarating watch, and it absolutely holds up. So five stars in a heart.
• 56:48
  Lots of love.
• 56:49
  Pete Wright: No question at all. Although I'm slightly tempted to lean into the bit and give it one star and a heart. I'm not gonna. Let's just know that's in my head.
• 56:58
  Andy Nelson: It's like that that letterbox reviewer, you know, one star because they didn't use the title in the film. Five stars if they used the title in film. This would be a one star film.
• 57:07
  Pete Wright: This would be a one star film. That's right. That's amazing. Yeah. Five stars and a heart.
• 57:13
  Excellent.
• 57:14
  Andy Nelson: Alright. Well, that averages out to five stars and a heart, which you can find on our account on Letterboxd at the next reel. You can find me there at Soda Creek Film, and you can find Pete there at Pete Wright. So what did you think about Dog Day Afternoon? We would love to hear your thoughts.
• 57:29
  Hop into the Show Talk channel over in our Discord community where we will be talking about the movie this week. When the movie ends, our conversation begins.
• 57:53
  Pete Wright: Letterbox giveth, Andrew.
• 57:55
  Andy Nelson: As letterboxed always doeth. Okay. What do you
• 57:57
  Pete Wright: wanna do? Do you wanna go by stars or length? How do you wanna go first? Let's do
• 58:04
  Andy Nelson: let's do short and punchy first, and then on on the big long one.
• 58:09
  Pete Wright: Okay.
• 58:11
  Andy Nelson: I have a four and a half and a heart by Jay who says, you know the robbery is a hit when it's really bringing the bank staff together as a family.
• 58:22
  Pete Wright: I did we ever find out in the movie who who throws the alarm?
• 58:26
  Andy Nelson: I honestly thought it was the smoke. I thought the smoke had somebody Called. Somebody called. Yeah.
• 58:35
  Pete Wright: But wouldn't that have brought the fire department?
• 58:39
  Andy Nelson: I don't know. I don't know. It's it is entirely possible somebody threw it, and we just never are we it's never revealed to us. It could have been Carol Kane's character. I only remember her as Squirrel because he keeps calling her that, but
• 58:54
  Pete Wright: Really shifty.
• 58:55
  Andy Nelson: Carol deck for quite a while. It's a desk. Yeah.
• 58:59
  Pete Wright: Alright. Well, I've got one from Carsten. It's four and a half stars and a heart. It's hard to look at Dog Day Afternoon as something completely unique because every film that came after Dog Day Afternoon that tried to be Dog Day Afternoon stole some technique from Dog Day Afternoon. The title just rolls off the tongue clearly.
• 59:16
  But what immediately stands out for me is the color palette. While maybe not direct with this usage, Dog Day Afternoon is consistently capturing the color white in a way that's perfectly akin to its themes. The buildings, the lights, the clothing, the vehicles, the skies. Maybe that's just the general aesthetic of the seventies, but no film from the decade has ever felt as subtly direct with this palette as this one. But these shades of white are never clean.
• 59:42
  The shirt is drenched in sweat. The vehicles are scuffed on their sides. The lights always have a certain tint to them. The skies are littered with helicopters. Littered with helicopters is right.
• 59:53
  Andy Nelson: There are too many helicopters.
• 59:55
  Pete Wright: I'm saying that as an aside. Littered with helicopters. What I'm saying is dog day afternoon, similar to the American criminal, is fascinating and bright on its surface. It's, again, direct and deceptively inviting, but that brightness up close has scratches on its surface, a tint that suggests an imperfection often ignored and manipulated from afar. Basically, it's just a cool movie, and Al Pacino is hot.
• 1:00:22
  Well played, Garcin. Well played.
• 1:00:24
  Andy Nelson: Totally agree. Absolutely. Yeah. Very
• 1:00:27
  Pete Wright: interesting. Thanks, Letterboxd.