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Crimes Against The Home · Democracy Tomorrow

• Scott Leckie: Hey everybody, it's Scott Leckie from Democracy Tomorrow for our latest episode with a very special guest. You're probably watching this or you know, either on the road or at home. And you probably live somewhere. And that home, no matter what form it takes, whether you rent it or own it, squat it, whether you're sharing it with someone else or living alone, that home is Probably to you a sacred place, a place for privacy, a place for security, a place for safety, a place for protection of the elements from the elements. And in many cases it might even be your biggest investment. Without a home, life looks very different than it does with a home. And both myself and today's guest have spent much of our working lives trying to secure. Housing, land, and property rights for people across the world, particularly in post-conflict and post-disaster situations, but also more generally in the context of slums and low-income neighborhoods and so on and so forth. We base our work on the body of international human rights law. Which ever since nineteen forty eight in the Universal Declaration on Human Rights has recognized the right to adequate housing, a right that you have no matter where you are. And we have tried through our efforts and the with the efforts of thousands and thousands of others to transform these words of promise into words of reality. As you of course know and see every day in the news, houses are becoming increasingly targets during war. Houses are intentionally demolished. Whole neighborhoods are in fact wiped out. Into some cases, whole cities where people are living are wiped out. We now have more displaced people in the world, both internally displaced people who have not left their country and those who have left their country. The numbers are the highest they have ever been since the end of World War II, and they're growing by the day. Every single one of those displaced people has basically lost the lives that they were used to. And much of the work that we have done has been has focused on trying to help people who are forced to flee due to circumstances beyond their control to return back to their homes once it is safe to do so and once that is what they wish to do. So with that intro, we'd like to welcome our special guest today, Sean Butta, who's speaking to us today from Barcelona, Spain. Sean, welcome to Democracy Tomorrow. It's great to have you here. Shaun: Thank you very much, Scott. Thanks for having me. It's good to see you. Scott Leckie: So tell us a little bit about the work that you've done around the world. I mean, you've worked in a lot of hot spots where most people wouldn't even dare go. and you know, maybe just describe for people that don't know what it's like, what is what's it like to work in a conflict zone or a post-conflict zone or an authoritarian society on issues which are so vital to not just individual lives, but also vital to You know, to the whole essence of political control. You know, people often forget that, you know, that those powerful enough to run societies often try to use the home against people. And they all they often try to take that home in order to enrich themselves. You know? So tell us first, I guess, a little bit about your background and then w some of the hot spots where you've worked. Shaun: Hmm. Yeah, thanks. well number one, it's very interesting to have worked in all of these in all of these sort of conflict zones. it's a strange type of privilege to be able to leave Australia and to go and live in these places and and see firsthand the type of effects that conflicts have on average everyday people, often the underprivileged. of their societies are the victims or the survivors of state violence, often internal conflicts that drive people to be displaced internally or across borders. And then to to work in those places and see the first hand effects of what happens when maybe the conflict is over and people are trying to return to their original homes or they're coming back from refugee camps in border zones and they're coming back to find maybe militias have taken their homes or companies have taken their homes or other tribes or other ethnic groups and then the struggles they face to try and simply return to what they had before conflict started. and it's it's often a very complicated process and they're trying in a way to take back their the right to their home or their property from the very government that has forced them out in the first place. Or in the cases where governments are in favour of protecting the rights of their own citizens, so let's say for example a case like Ukraine where obviously the the Ukrainian state is a victim of Russian aggression. People have been forced out into neighbouring countries and they're coming back. They even the state is on their side. They want to help their own people, but maybe they don't have the resources. Or maybe their legislative systems are not set up to deal with the impact of conflict. so you might see this also in let's say f current example, Lebanon, where Lebanese people have been displaced in southern Lebanon by Israeli strikes, Lebanese citizens, but also Palestinians and and Syrians and others. and the the Lebanese government wants to help them, but it's a very very complex and expensive operation to do so. So there's also there's all sorts of different scenarios that that we can see. so for example, some of the places I've worked, like Somalia, where you have Somalis coming back from decades spent in refugee camps in Kenya, they're coming back to homes that have been taken now by secondary occupants. third occupants, fourth occupants, trying to get their their land and property back after all that time is i increasingly difficult. So then we might be thinking about well okay maybe maybe it's not fair to kick out the now the fourth person to have that title, that c that place. Scott Leckie: Uh-huh. Shaun: Maybe we need to think about compensating the original owner because that's the fairest option or giving them alternative land. But then this becomes a very expensive exercise and And so compensation is also not the magic bullet that we think it might be. And so, you know, a lot of these things are political as well, because let's say you and I were talking recently about Syria. in the Syrian example, you have a new government that's coming in, it's trying to gain legitimacy, it wants things to happen as fast as possible. They have to show the people that, hey, we're different to the last guy, we're gonna get things done. We can do things fairly, we can treat minorities fairly, we need to get things done right now. How do you come up with the how do you come up with the the w the political will, the money and the and the efficiency and speed of getting something done to prove to the population that we're going to rectify some of these wrongs from the past? Governments are under an incredible amount of pressure. And and we don't have the money that we used to have. So the glory days of the Bosnias and and these sorts of examples, we just don't have the international will or money anymore to ha to launch these huge operations where we we build a massive international coalition, we come up with a ton of money and and we try to address these address these housing, land and property issues that we face now. So some of the those are some of the sort of challenges and the different interesting different types of contexts that we that that we've both worked in over the years. Scott Leckie: Yeah. Shaun: and the challenges are ever present there in every single conflict and post conflict scenario that we look at. Housing, land and property Scott Leckie: Yeah. Shaun: rights, people coming home is a central issue. Scott Leckie: Absolutely. And it's important to remember that there are literally right this second, in late September twenty twenty six, there are literally tens actually probably hundreds of millions of people across the world who were displaced at some point in time, who still maintain legal rights to return to their original homes, who are not able to do so for a whole host of reasons. And so, you know, it's really important to remember. I mean, I often mention this in the context of all different types of tragedy, you know. Whenever tragedy strikes, in this case, displacement or the destruction of your home, it's something that happens i in the matter of a few moments, you know? The the militia shows up, tells you to leave. If you're lucky they don't kill you, you flee with the clothes on your back, and then suddenly it's fifty years later. And you still haven't been able to return to your home. That moment of tragedy results in a a lifetime of losses. And it's the same thing when a bomb hits a neighborhood. It happens in a few seconds. And the lingering after effects of that single bomb that was produced in some single factory somewhere by some workers ends up destroying a family or a neighborhood's or a person's life for decades to come. And it's in Shaun: Mm. Yeah, it's true. Scott Leckie: Repairing that, you know, is what you, me, and thousands of others have been trying to do around the world. And exactly as you said, you know, particularly me, because I started earlier than you because I'm older, you know, we rode a wave, an endless, perfectly shaped barreled wave for for two or three decades that er arose almost entirely because of the end of the Cold War in nineteen eighty nine. You know, before that, those forty-four years between nineteen forty-five and and eighty-nine, the UN as a body was really just kind of treading water. And it was all about the super power rivalry. And the potential of the UN was nowhere near realized. When '89 came and the Cold War ended, a gigantic flower blossomed and immense, immense forces were unleashed, positive, good forces. Which included a worldwide movement for restitution. And out of the blue, you know, restitution was occasionally heard about in the context of Palestinian refugees or, you know, the s the Cypriot refugees that occurred because of the conflict between Turkey and Greece over Cyprus and a range of others. But when the eighty nine came, you started hearing it from everyone. Everywhere was talking about restitution. And, you know, I worked in probably twenty or thirty different countries on this issue. You've worked in a whole bunch of different countries on this issue. And there's no question that it was increasing with each passing year. Restitution was taking taken just that much more serious. And programs were put in place. Commissions were set up, claims processes were developed. We I designed many of them. Laws were adopted, procedures were adopted. People were actually getting the keys back. From the homes that were taken by another ethnic group, for instance. And there were a lot of bright spots going on all around the world. And you most certainly cannot say the same today, you know. Today we are witnessing the decline of the seriousness accorded to rights to return and rights to restitution and HLP rights generally. And part of that has come about because of the, you know. rising extreme right wing political beliefs that are, you know, exercised in many, many countries, huge reductions in international spending for development, aid, peace, security, UN. And also because it's difficult, you know, it was all it was never easy in the first place. It was something people need Shaun: Mm-hmm. Scott Leckie: to remember. And as you mentioned in the case of Somalia, I mean you can apply that to all sorts of other countries. You know, what do you do when you know we I encountered this in many places where the just thing to do is for the original family to get their home back, of course, when the war ends. And then you go back to that house and lo and behold, some family from another ethnic group has been placed there by the government of the time. And in order to get justice for the original victims, you have to create Homelessness for the Shaun: Yeah. Scott Leckie: people living there now. And you can't do that very easily. So you have to have a program to help them. And all of this, you know, costs money. And it's not Shaun: Yeah. Scott Leckie: only about money, but it's about mentality. And I think one of the most worrying things of the last 10 to 15 years has been the just the callous disregard for activities that governments know will result in mass displacement. As if it's just a small little side effect of a conflict. Shaun: Mm, mm. Scott Leckie: But for those individual people multiplied by tens of millions, it's a life shattering proposition. And the least you Shaun: Yeah. Scott Leckie: can do is try to get their homes back for them and hope that that can build the foundations for peace. But maybe you have some good personal anecdotes to tell us about particular challenges you've faced in some of the countries where you've been to, you know, turn restitution into a a reality or turn HLP rights, housing, land and property rights into a reality. Something that, you know, maybe you know, a big you know, aha moment that you had maybe in in Iraq or in Somalia or in Myanmar or many of the countries you work. Shaun: Yeah. I think there there's probably two things, which is related to sort of the the the the stakeholders that we work with, which is often the UN or the big international NGOs who are sort of behind these pushes to have the international human rights framework around HLP recognized and and implemented. and one of those one of those factors is that what what I've What I've seen and what the statistics show is that the the vast majority of inter refugee situations are protracted situations. And so i i when you were d talking about the the the bomb hitting the house, it it just made me think about those those people who have fled and now have been in refugee camps for generations. And so y we we've both worked with with Myanmar populations on the Thai border. They've been there for over thirty years. The Somalis have been in Kenya for, you know, thirty years since Black Hawk Down era. Scott Leckie: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Shaun: you know, the the Palestinians have been out of of Palestine since forty eight. You know, it's all of these all of these really protracted situations. And our our focus has always been on return as the as the as the the best remedy. But the fact is when return doesn't happen, we find ourselves stuck in a limbo because we say, Well, we're waiting for returns to happen, we're waiting for the situation in the country to change and it become possible for people to voluntarily return in safety and dignity. And when that doesn't happen, we sit on our hands. And that's what's that's what we're seeing in the first decade of the Rohingya crisis. ob obviously the war goes the civil war goes on in Myanmar and we we the conditions for return are not there. But that doesn't spark a new conversation for us to say these people have had their rights violated in all sorts of ways, not just, you know, they had to flee their home, but they've been ab abused on the way, tortured, detained, etc. etc. etc. A whole range of of abuses stem simply from the forced eviction, the forced population movement. but it doesn't it doesn't spur us as the international community to say, well, okay, what other remedies have we got? What else could we do? and it also varies a lot by situation because basically as soon as this happened in Europe, in Ukraine, all of a sudden we had a huge trust fund and a a register of damages and the whole European Union coming together to say, we need to do something about this. So there's that that's probably the main the main issue that I see. But also the fact that the receiving states are often the perpetrators of the violence that drove people out in the first place. so convincing them to to do anything that will reverse that situation is also very difficult. and the other thing I think is that oftentimes the the the frameworks that people live under in terms of how they're protecting their HOP rights is often informal. so they'd never have Scott Leckie: Mm. Shaun: the property title that you Scott Leckie: Right. Shaun: have in your house in Australia. they just don't have that. Maybe they've got a written contract, maybe they've got a a tax slip to show that they've been paying you know, tax or something like this. And that's all functioning fine. It's it's it's outside the outside the frame the legal framework, but it's all happening it's all working until people are displaced. Then all of a sudden they're in an IDP camp. And the government uses that informality and that lack of documentation to say you can't come back because you don't have these documents. Now, the reason they the reason Scott Leckie: Absolutely. Absolutely. Shaun: they didn't have those documents is because potentially the administration is wildly corrupt and it would have cost them a fortune to pay for the documents in the first place, or have the Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Shaun: family home taken out of the grandfather's name and put into the origin these the current occupant's name. These sorts of barriers Scott Leckie: Right. Shaun: prevent people from protecting their rights. Gender bias and discrimination prevents women from Scott Leckie: Mm. Shaun: inheriting. You know, all of these things, all Scott Leckie: Right. Right. Shaun: of these things sort of are sort of people can live with it, but as soon as they get displaced, then all of a sudden it's used against them. So, you know, that's Scott Leckie: Mm. Yes, absolutely. Shaun: something that we've we've seen in many, many places because major many conflicts are happening in postcolonial contexts with legal pluralism and all these layers of different laws that people have to navigate. And Scott Leckie: Right. Shaun: f for us to come in afterwards and say, Whoa, how would we synthesise all these laws to make it possible to protect HOP rights is very difficult. For people themselves who are displaced to navigate those the situ it's it's n it's very, very complex. and, you know, people just don't have the the indicia of I own this house and it's at this address and it's you know, and here's the chain of title and you know, all this things that we take for granted in the West. That's those Scott Leckie: Uh-huh, uh-huh. Shaun: things just don't exist. So very difficult situation to rectify it after the fact. Scott Leckie: Not to mention the huge percentage of land in the world that is still to this day governed by what broadly is defined as customary law. you know, not written law, law that's been used for centuries to organize the spatial allocation of land. but it's not written down. And it's not certainly not subject to an individual t you know, Torrance title or anything like that. Shaun: Mm-hmm. Scott Leckie: And so resolving that, you know, resolving restitution claims in a customary l land law system is, you know, hugely complex. as is the whole issue of documentation, you know, as you said, we take it totally for granted that even if we're tenants, we have a tenancy agreement or a rental agreement Shaun: Yeah. Scott Leckie: with our landlord, whether it's the state or private landlord, most likely a private landlord in this world where the state doesn't build housing anymore hardly, but it should. Or certainly when you're an owner, you you know that your title is not only within your physical possession or in some digital archive, but it's being managed and held by the state. And Shaun: Mm. Scott Leckie: and you can have recourse to have a look at that title if somebody else tries to claim ownership of your piece of land. The other thing that all you know often comes up in my mind is anybody that lives in a stable democratic system, if there's any problem whatsoever with regard to the ownership of your house or this the privacy or the security of your house, et cetera. You always have someone to call. There's Shaun: Mm. Scott Leckie: always a government agency or somebody that you can call or and and certainly there's a police department. Hey man, somebody's trying to break into my house. Hey man, somebody's trying to squat on my land. Hey man, somebody's trying to do this or that. Most of the world doesn't have that. There is no one to call Shaun: Mm-hmm. Scott Leckie: And particularly in the context of a war or conflict or a disaster, there's no one to call. And so if you don't have that and you don't have documentation, just imagine trying to enforce legitimate held rights that exist under international law and many domestic legal jurisdictions as well, that you should have not only the right not to be evicted, but you should have the right to return to your home if you were ever arbitrarily evicted or forced to flee due to circumstances beyond your control. And I think The thing that really gets me is almost no one wants to voluntarily give up their right to return or to get back the at least control over the property that they had at the time of their displacement. And they're they're emotionally affected by this. I've seen it millions of times, you know? And to me, it's that lack of justice that really gets me, you know, Shaun: Mm-hmm. Scott Leckie: to know that some absolute asshole has taken over the property belonging to whatever, a little old lady, or a family Shaun: Mm. Scott Leckie: of eleven children, or whatever it may be, or just a normal nuclear family, simply because they had better connections with the local militia or the government or the army, they've taken over that home, or maybe even been allocated it by that same state. Shaun: Mm. Scott Leckie: And the people whose legitimate rights are to reclaim it have no chance of ever getting justice, you know, residential Shaun: Yeah, yeah. Scott Leckie: justice as I always call it. And, you know, I've called for, for instance, for years, for the establishment of a new international organization. You could call it the World Restitution Agency, whatever you want to call it, but some UN body or quasi-UN body whose sole responsibility was to maintain a database of all outstanding restitution claims in the world and to set in motion processes that allow that right to be exercised by everybody who has an outstanding claim. Not a single government has supported that idea yet. but maybe one day, Shaun: Mm-hmm. Scott Leckie: maybe one day they will. Because, you know, until Shaun: I think Scott Leckie: we have the until restitution is resolved, you never truly have peace in the country affected. Shaun: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think that's one of the one of the what you've what you've picked up on there is probably one of the biggest oversights in what happened with the development of the restitution principles. The Pinheira principles really just glossed over the fact that you know, many of the places where we'd be looking to implement restitution programs are are in areas of customary land management. And so this concept of private titles, which is Which, you know, when you look at the the the shining examples of restitution, or the ones at least that people talk about the most, like Bosnia, like South Africa, they're they're not really dealing with the difficulties that customary land management presents. And so it's it's kind of hard to look at them, and the principles and s and say, well, how are we going to apply this in an area of of customary or common common ownership of like shifting agriculture how is it going to work in a Somali context where you have nomads and pastoralists you know all of these types of areas where you don't just have a title and and and you've got documentation and and as a consequence of that if we were to s if we were to think about okay let's say Myanmar's a good example the eastern side of Myanmar there's a lot of customary land management there How are going to design a restitution program that that takes account of that? Because we think about the mechanisms as we're going to design this very centralized, statewide, heavy government-run process, when in reality we could be looking at the areas of customary land management and saying, okay, who are the local authorities here? the ones with legitimacy, the one that the ones that people trust? If they're back after a conflict. Perhaps they can do their own thing at the local level and simply have it ticked off at the township, regional, whatever level, and let's cut out, you know, let's cut out forty percent of the of the ownerous process and have that have those decisions recognized at the at the central level by, you know, the federal authorities. For example. Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Shaun: there there are ways which we could there are ways that we could sort of deal with this, but we it's not that we can look at the international principles like the the Pinheiro principles and and find guidance. So I think that's one way in which restitution thinking could develop in future because now we're we're move we're we're well and truly into an era where we're thinking in decolonial terms. and these Western property rights are the epitome of of colonial thinking, right? Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Shaun: Because we imported we imported all this common law system thinking into like the British Empire and all its but and all its possessions. Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Shaun: India and India, then Myanmar. Myanmar got the Indian penal code. Scott Leckie: Sure. Shaun: so you know, all the property law and everything that is very focused on on on a in a Western perspective. So that's something we could we we could reframe the restitution principles to just apply to the places where it's actually it it actually needs to be used. Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Uh-huh. Shaun: But there doesn't seem to be much thinking about, you know, changing any of this. So I I feel like the Pinheiro principles are kind of a missed opportunity. And I'm a bit surprised by that because Pinheiro himself is a is a lawyer. but the people who are thinking about restitution, most of them are not lawyers, most of them are humanitarians and they want quick wins, they're not really interested in thinking about the theory behind what they're doing. so That's something I th I think it needs more intellectual work. Whether we can change that in the future is to be seen, but i when we're doing the implementation, we need to have a framework that we can work from. Scott Leckie: Well, par you know, part of it is you know, f with regard to the Panero principles, 'cause you know, I was centrally involved in that. the the main purpose of the Panero principles was really to put on you know, to be to build an element of the international legal framework that expressly recognized the housing, land and property rights of every single person in the world who was arbitrarily displaced, you know? And So that applies obviously to everyone. It applies to pastoralists and you know customary law regions and war zones and disaster zones and everywhere else. so you know it was really getting that principle onto the international agenda and then with some level of specificity under some elements of the restitution process. and that that's really why they were there. They were never designed to be, you know, a hundred page guidance note on how Shaun: Mm. Scott Leckie: to actually apply restitution to every single context in the world, right? But I think the easiest way to understand Shaun: Yeah. Which is their strength. Scott Leckie: it is, you know, you have a you have a general principle first, right? Then you have this really gnarly group of people who are victimized and displaced, right? How do you find the middle way in the middle that allows justice to occur for that group using the general ideas of the principles? And then, you know, when you apply it to a local situation, As we know, the best way to do it is start with the easiest cases, right? Because there's hundreds of different ways in which this displacement can occur, right? It can occur because they're you're building a dam and it you never allowed the people to have any sort of judicial remedy to oppose the dam. It could be because you're bulldozing a slum. It could be because there was a big bomb that went off. It could be because you you know you displaced an entire neighborhood, whatever. it can manifest in in countless different ways. And you know, having a blueprint directly applicable to every single situation is a bit difficult. But what you can Shaun: Yeah. Scott Leckie: do is say, okay, that clearly was a violation of the rights of those people. Everyone agrees, okay, we have the political will to make that happen. Let's make it happen. Because in the end, sadly, I mean that's the strength of human rights and law generally, right? It's meant to transcend power and politics, right? It's meant to be these immutable principles, right? problem is particularly with restitution it all comes down to politics always you know Shaun: Yeah. Yeah. Scott Leckie: and so you know the the by far the best organized restitution movement in the world was the world jewish restitution organization it was called and they were tremendously successful getting all sorts of properties back and compensation for all of the losses the Jewish people accrued during the Second World War in in a number Shaun: Yes. Scott Leckie: of European countries, probably twenty or thirty. And then the probably the second most successful was the US driven restitution pl program, really, for all of the formerly communist Eastern European countries. some of that was Jewish property, but most of it was just land that was nationalized by the communist authorities without adequate compensation and and the list goes Shaun: Yep, yep. Scott Leckie: on. And that Shaun: Yep. Scott Leckie: was also from a restitution formal restitution perspective, reasonably successful. Then comes all the post conflict stuff. Bosnia, Kosovo, East Timor, Iraq, Sri Lanka, y you know, now Ukraine. I mean Cal Mozambique had one. I mean, there were all sorts of restitution programs that happened. And then pro you know, sadly, fourth place are the the unresolved cases. which is by far the biggest group right right now and including brand new fresh refugees and fresh IDPs and Shaun: Yeah. Scott Leckie: others that have been languishing for generations. And you know, back to Shaun: Yeah, yeah. Scott Leckie: the documentation question quickly, the you know, a as is widely known for people that want to read history, Jewish forces ethnically cleansed Palestinian families from their homes and lands. across historic Palestine between 1945 and 1948, leading to the establishment of the State of Israel. They demolished 531 Palestinian villages at that time, wiped them off the face of the map, and displaced around 750,000 people at that time. That number, of course, has subsequently grown to many millions over the years with births and so on. Every single one of the properties from which Palestinians were displaced had a title associated with it. Ottoman Empire titles and subsequent ones. All of those have been digitalized and are under lock they they the ph physical originals still exist in a building in Manhattan under lock and key by the UN and they have all been digitalized. If there was political will, I'm making this point that it's about politics, if there was political will within Israel To ensure the exercise of the right to return and the right to restitution for Palestinian refugees, the document that the documentary evidence exists in the best possible way, better than any other mass displacement case in the history of the last century. What's lacking, obviously, is the political will, which is probably these days I would guess it's well under five percent of Israeli. population that would support the right to return for Palestinian refugees. It used to be a lot bigger. but without that politics changing, restitution is not going to come into being. And, you know, the same applies to all the other unresolved cases. Until until political positions change on Cyprus fifty one years later, or whatever it is, you're not going to get restitution for the displaced people from both sides. And You know, that that's that's the real sad, you know, tale to tell. That, you know, there's still so much obsession with nationalism and our country's the best and so on and so forth that, you know, getting that to that point of, you know, we actually should give it back, you know, the quoting the Shaun: Yeah, yeah. Scott Leckie: midnight oil song, you know, let's get to the point where we can accept that we did wrong and it's time to start programs that will actually get it back into people's hands. Shaun: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and Cyprus, you know, Cyprus is a is a good one because the all the only thing you hear about Cyprus is maybe individual courts of the European Court of Human Rights. So there's there's one co one Scott Leckie: Right. Shaun: case, Luizidu, of of of people getting Scott Leckie: That's right. Yeah. Shaun: their their things back. But then it's like, okay, do you expect, you know, two hundred thousand people to launch individual cases in the European Court of Human Rights to get their things back? probably not. Scott Leckie: That's right. Shaun: but yeah, in terms of the Israeli and Palestine questions probably the most complicated HLP problem of our time and and one of the most long standing. Scott Leckie: But only politically. It's not it it's not complicated legally. It's not complicated like documentation wise. It's not common Shaun: No. No. No. Scott Leckie: it's not complicated. It would be so easy if there was and you know the other point to make there, and l I'll let you continue. much of the land that was confiscated by Israelis from Palestinian people is not built on. You know, 'cause there's a basic principle about restitution which is If it's not materially impossible to return the land, it should be returned, right? So if they've built an airport on your land or a big shopping center or a ministerial building or something, they can argue it's materially impossible to give you back that land because it's got a public purpose and so on, right? In mo most cases, as far as I understand it, and I've seen it with my own eyes, Much of the land that was confiscated by Israel from Palestinians is currently just empty land. National parks, city parks, land that's just fallow, just sitting there. So it wouldn't you the materially impossible argument is out the door for much of it. And then of course there are, you know, some of the most luxurious neighborhoods in modern day Israel are former Palestinian neighborhoods. Where the Jewish agency has basically implanted Jewish families into Palestinian homes. And I have seen Palestinian families try to go back to their original homes and literally knock on the door in certain parts of Tel Aviv, Br Jerusalem, I think, and be, you know, ab verbally abused by the current occupants, you know, and w one of them even one of them Shaun: Is the lucky? Scott Leckie: even said that they had hung the same curtains that were hanging in the front window decades before and the current occupant hadn't hadn't changed them, you know. And I Shaun: Hmm. Scott Leckie: I've been I've seen that many, many in many contexts where people literally try to return and you know they are prevented from doing so by the current occupant who was placed there by the ethnic group to which they belong. And you know, I've seen it with Serbs Shaun: Yeah, yeah. Scott Leckie: trying to go back to Croatia. with, you know, Kosovar Albanians trying to go back to a Serb enclave in Kosovo, whatever the case may be. and that's just tragic to see also, you know. Shaun: Yeah, absolutely. And I think what the the Israel Palestine situation is a emblematic of the fact that if you it's one of those conflicts where if you don't resolve the the HOP issues, you don't get anywhere near a peace deal. You don't get anywhere near a two state solution if that's what you think is the best solution, which a lot of people don't think that as well. But but the question is, you know, let's let's let's play it out now and say Okay, you you and I can sit down and try and think through what's what's a good solution here. I don't know with with the amount of settlement building that's being approved and and and Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Shaun: and used well it's being used by the government under the pretext of some of them start out as security outposts, right? They use the national security agenda to justify it, etc. Some are just These days it's just straight out approved as as new settlements to be built. despite this litany of commentary about the illegality of, you know, forcible population transfers and etcetera, etcetera. But that every single settlement that gets built makes it takes us further and further away from the two-state solution. So the question is what do you do? What do you do with those with those houses? Let's say those houses in those settlements. Would would you propose a straight swap? and say those those those settlers Scott Leckie: Well, that's one option. Yeah. Shaun: will have to go back to fully Israeli territory and those houses could then be used to house Palestinians. I mean how do you how do you see that going? Scott Leckie: That's one option. I mean legally legally well legally they should be demolished, right? Legally. Under international law. They're they're illegal constructions on land that does not belong to them. And so with restitution, you return the situation to how it was before the crime took place, right? Which is either empty land or, you know, whatever it may be. So but is that realistic to propose, you know, maybe not. But Personally, my preference as it would be for the whole planet would be for fucking people to get along, man, you know, and to be normal and quit hating each other, right? And so, you know, I think practically speaking, if you know, I was told by a very high ranking Palestinian leader once, we do not choose we do not choose our families. We choose our friends. And we do not choose our neighbors, but you have to live with them, right? And and that really hit home because, you know, like I was you know, like in in the West Bank when I heard this, and you know, like it really kind of like, whoa, yeah, that's so true. So, you know, I'm I'm in the one state solution camp myself, where you know, like it or not, the fact is you have to live together, folks. So if you want to call yourself a democracy and you wanna call yourself a you know you wanna be part of Europe or whatever, have a multi ethnic state like most states are. Have a free and equal and fair and equitable society where human rights guide political decision making and where people are treated as equals. You know, and I know that sounds totally unrealistic right now. And I know there will be huge numbers of people in that region who will who will oppose that. But in the long run, what are you going to do? You know, I mean, would it like a two state solution geographically is almost impossible now. And Shaun: Yeah. Scott Leckie: you know, that was always part of the Israeli strategy all along. You know, divide and conquer works. Why do you think they do it so well? You know? And they do it they do it with the greatest Shaun: Yeah. Well they're they're very good at crimp Scott Leckie: of success, you know? Shaun: But they're doing very well at creating facts on the ground, and we're we're doing very little as the international community to stop it. You know. Especially despite the fact that let's say, Scott Leckie: Right, right. I mean you have movement Shaun: for example, some of the some of the responsibility for the situation that we are finding ourselves in now is British, for example. they were big supporters in the early 1900s, Scott Leckie: All the way back, sure. Shaun: and then post that the Scott Leckie: Sure. Shaun: US. so, but Scott Leckie: You bet. But that's changing now. I mean, it really is changing. Like the the US position, Shaun: I hope so. Scott Leckie: the US population's position on this issue has changed dramatically in recent years. You know, so we'll see what happens Shaun: Yeah. But it Scott Leckie: in the in the coming elections. But you gotta hope. Shaun: But again that's that's politics that we've to deal with, you know? Because the fact is it's it's it's quite sad to think that we have to think about the impact that the domestic politics of another country can have on the the outcome for, let's say, Palestinians and and Israelis as well, you know? So depending on what happens in the US elections, Scott Leckie: Absolutely. Shaun: could have a very different outcome, you know. Do you do Scott Leckie: Yeah. Shaun: Imagine the difference between having Jared Kushner negotiating the positions or Scott Leckie: Uh-huh. Shaun: John Kerry. Or Madeline Orbright. Mum Danny. You know what I mean? Like these are these are the Scott Leckie: Or mom Donnie. Or what about what about him? Why not? Or some senator, you know, who sees you know, sees things reasonably, right? It could happen. It could happen. but it just seems like such a utterly lost cause right now. I mean, it just seems so bad. But I mean there's kind of no winners in the end, you know? Like everybody's a loser. And You just have to hope that reason prevails. I mean, there is a segment of Israeli society, and this is who it hinges upon, who is utterly reasonable and utterly pro-human rights and utterly non-religious in their out in their outlook and secular in their orientation, who wants democracy for everyone. And you gotta hope that that group, which is now so tiny compared to what it once was, will, you know, eventually grow into the majority when they realize there really is no other way. I mean, you you know, what are you going to do? Have like complete and total ethnic cleansing? And then have some s like so called ethnically pure state be cut on the backs of millions and millions of people and have the whole world just look away? I don't think so, you know? So Shaun: Yeah. Well there's plenty of i when you've got the defence minister saying stuff like this, you know, and seemingly quite popular. But the choice in the Israeli elections which are coming soon is kind of centre right, right and very right. So it's it doesn't look super good. Scott Leckie: I don't even think there's a center right anymore. You know, like it's Shaun: Probably not. Scott Leckie: it's I mean, they're trying to out extreme each other, it seems from what I hear. I mean, some of these AI images they're creating of these like factories of emaciated Palestinians and you know, ministers saying they should kill forty Palestinians every day and you know, the list goes on. I mean, it's gruesome, man. Shaun: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's crazy stuff. Scott Leckie: Absolutely gruesome. And you Shaun: Yeah, it's crazy stuff. Scott Leckie: just gotta hope that that reasonable Israeli portion of society can one day, with the support of the international community, you know, find a way to to move for forward. Because, you know, I mean, there's more than enough in, you know, intellectual capacity in that region to make that unified country an economic powerhouse, for instance. And and all sorts of things could happen if there was justice minded people in charge, you know. Shaun: Mm. Yeah. I mean it's just it's cra it's it's crazy to think about the amount of situations around the world that are creating the the amount enormous amounts of refugees that and internally displaced people which just don't they're not getting any they're not getting any traction. They're not even getting any attention. Like if you look at Sudan, right? Massive, Scott Leckie: I know, I know. Shaun: massive catastrophe. No attention, no money. Yemen Yemen? Yemen, no money, no attention. Myanmar? Scott Leckie: Millions. Millions and millions. More. Right. No. Shaun: No attention. So i I mean if you've got the backing of like Russia or China, for example, Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Shaun: no attention. Not just those not just those factors, but there's there's fashion, unfortunately, Scott Leckie: Right. And you know the Shaun: in these conflicts. You know. Scott Leckie: That's right. And at a time when, you know, the UN and particularly UNHCR in this context, the High Commissioner for Refugees more needed than ever, their budgets have been slashed. You know, Shaun: Yeah. Scott Leckie: UNHCR has had to fire like thousands of staff members and in you know, the office of Shaun: IOM as well. Scott Leckie: the High Commissioner for Human Rights has had to fire hundreds. I don't know if it's thousands yet, but huge numbers of people. And, you know, what's Shaun: Huge numbers, yeah. Scott Leckie: the what's the alternative? You know, my My optimistic side says, you know. As this current system, which was an incredible system when you think back on the founders of the UN, the people that drafted the UN Charter, that drafted the Universal Declaration on Human Rights, you know, the amount of thought and wisdom that went into those documents is extraordinary, you know. And that quest to end war forevermore, you know, and to start the UN Charter with we the peoples of the United Nations doesn't say countries. Doesn't say governments, says the peoples, you know, premised on humanity, that we'll finally have this new dawn, you know, where war will never happen again after these two horrible wars. And now people are forgetting not just the beauty of that moment, but the carnage that preceded it, you know, and letting things kind of fall apart. So my hope has always been that, you know, the UN and the charter and and the human rights machinery were. really meant to be stepping stones to something much better, you know, because it was Shaun: Yeah. Scott Leckie: a fundamentally great system in many ways, but flawed as well and premised totally on the sanctity of the nation state and not really on humans, you know, even though the charter said that. In the Shaun: Yeah. Scott Leckie: end it was about the nation state. And that's good. And that's makes sense from a evolutionary perspective, particularly when you think that the UN was founded by only 48 countries and there's now 195. So things change, right? There's four times as many as many countries now than at the time of its adoption. Shaun: Yeah. Scott Leckie: But what we're still la lacking is the the deep, you know, acceptance of our shared humanity as the basis upon which to build the next system. And that's what I want to see, without there being a stupid war in between, you know. Let let us Shaun: Yeah, yeah. Scott Leckie: be wise enough to see that, you know. How can it be? I mean, look look what humanity has done in the in the last year or two, but particularly in the last eighty years. Let climate change get totally out of control to the point of, you Shaun: I was about to say. Scott Leckie: know, existential threat. Let AI get totally out of control where to the point where people are talking about the end of humanity, and to let nuclear weapons get totally out of control. So we great. We've developed three ways to completely wipe out our own species. First species to ever do that. Yeah. You know, and that's that's a big problem, man. We have to get past that shit. Look up in the sky, realize there's nobody coming to help us. There's no one. There's no savior. It's just eight and a half billion people sharing one place. Get your fucking act together, humans, and build something better than we've ever had. And now's our chance. Like Shaun: It seems quite basic. Scott Leckie: if we don't do it It's it's Sinara. Shaun: Yeah, yeah. Well Elon Musk will come up with something for you, Scott, I'm sure. Another planet or a fake planet. AOL create another planet. I don't know. Scott Leckie: Yeah. I don't know. I I haven't seen that documentary yet that just came out, the four hour documentary by Alex Gibney, but I saw the poster for it and it's pretty amazing. It's Elon Shaun: Okay. Okay. Scott Leckie: Musk basically cutting the earth in half, you know. The earth is Shaun: Okay. Scott Leckie: like separated into half spheres with him kind of standing on top. So I I'm not putting my money on Shaun: Nice. yeah. But what Scott Leckie: him. Shaun: but back to what you were saying about the UN is is you know things have changed but also things have stayed the same in some ways because, you know, if you look at the the permanent five members of the Security Council with vetoes, it's a little snapshot of World War Two basically. So there there was a there was a Scott Leckie: Totally. Shaun: period where the UN actually was just becoming a giant bloated overpaid bureaucracy. And there there was change needed long ago in those agencies and was not happening. Kofi Annan had a go, but too many entrenched interests at the top level to really make any changes. So there there were there that needed to change. But the way it's been done is unfortunate. And the question is what comes what comes after that? You know, and we don't also we don't have Scott Leckie: No, but still the the UN the U The UN budget has never been anything to write home about, right? The UN budget has been tiny compared to at even Shaun: Had a private sector, yes. Scott Leckie: at even at the best of the times. Well compared to the state sector or the private sector, the UN has had minuscule resources to do what it was meant to do and expected to do. So that is a huge, huge, huge problem. Yeah, yes, there were problems, and yes it was you know, full of a of staff that was not the the highest possible caliber and things like that. As every government is, as every company is. So it's not that different. But it's the mindset I think that's missing, you know? Shaun: Yeah. A hundred percent. But it but it also got it also got hijacked a bit though, you know? Like it got a bit hijacked with, you know, chapter seven interventions where it could be seen from the outside to say, you know, this is just another colonial imperial adventure into someone else's sovereignty. And I think people got fed up with that, you know, and they lost they lost patience for that. Scott Leckie: Well, even in the you know, people people forget that the you know, the Korean War eventually became a UN war, right? You know it wasn't you know, the UN was totally abused in that process and then it was subsequently abused in I mean, you know, in many African contexts and and elsewhere. But we gotta hope that the UN can be like truly seen as a stepping stone now. 'Cause There are there are going to be very soon, in the matter of weeks, elections for the new Secretary General. And, you know, Guterres has probably tried his best. You know, the former Prime Minister of Portugal, the former head of U UN High Commissioner for Human Rights for refugees, and many other positions, he's tried his best for the last what, ten years to do what he can, but you know, the UN is a mere shell. of its former self. And even in the b you know, the worst of times, the UN couldn't do anything because the Cold War got in the way. When the Cold War got out of the way, the UN could start doing things and it did. I mean, I was part personally of the two times essentially when the UN was the government of a country, which it was in Kosovo and in East Timor. And yeah, there were flaws to that and it was hard and there were mistakes made and stuff. But the simple fact that that was politically acceptable by all of the major players that as an intram measure, not to take it over, not to be a colonial overlord, but an intram measure after the fall of one authoritarian regime or military occupation, in the case of East Timor, before the local government could hold elections, etcetera, you'd have the UN running things. You know, I'm not necessarily advocating that for the entire world, but it shows what was at least in the minds of many possible during the glory years, you know, and it seemed, you know, by the way, people won't believe this, but it really seemed at that time, 99, 2000, 2001, it had the feeling that this was going to start happening all over the place. And there were going to be UN administrations in eight or 10 or 20 or 50 countries Shaun: Yeah. Scott Leckie: as an interest measure before you know full democracy could be entrenched. But let me just let me branch off into another area now and see what you think of this. So We now have this interesting political development whereby Canada is becoming an associate member of the European Union, right? Twenty-seven member states of the European Union, governed by European law and the Treaty of Maastricht and everything else. Canada is in the process of coming becoming something akin to an associate member of the the European Union. Shaun: I did not know about that. Scott Leckie: This is a maj you didn't know that. This is a major development and Shaun: I didn't know that, no. Okay. Scott Leckie: something that's never happened before, right? And there are all sorts of technical, legal reasons why they could or could not become a a full fledged member of the U because there is a bit of French territory right next to Canada, so it borders technically on the European Union. But if that is accepted as the reason why, you could then argue that huge swathes of the Pacific Ocean. could become part of the Europe Shaun: Seychelles could join or something, yeah. Scott Leckie: for the well, y no, to like every anything that comes comes anywhere near to any French territory in the Pacific, New Caledonia means Shaun: Yeah. Yeah. Scott Leckie: Vanuatu could technically join the Europe European Union because it's French territory and it means anything that borders on Tahiti could do the same, or anything that borders on any Wallace and Fortuna, any of the other French colonies in the Pacific, it also means the same for the Caribbean, it also means the same for a whole s bunch of places. If that's the argument that they use to justify this, it opens up the possibility for something closer than we've ever seen before to a true global world parliament sort of situation, right? Where you have the building box blocks in place, you have the vanguard countries and And the ones that want to join on have to agree to the rules. You know, and ironically, in my most recent novel called Psychotic Despotic, I deal exactly with that issue. You know, it becomes a battle between democracies and authoritarians, right? And it's all about, you know, trying to end dictatorship, the novel. And it's extreme and wild and weird. But that's the basic principle underlying it. You know, there's a battle at the UN between should we be a democratic institution or just accept everybody, notwithstanding. their political views. So it's really interesting to extrapolate on this new development with Canada because it also means that Australia is starting to dabble in this idea of being an associate member of the European Union. New Zealand will then of course jump on board if if Australia does it to the level that Canada is doing it. And then as I said Shaun: Yeah. Scott Leckie: before, other countries could potentially join in. And that is a way Whereby you could s you could start building an international coalition of nations grounded in democracy and human rights, and law, the rule of law, and begin rebuilding the international order along those lines and attracting new members who are willing to abide by the same political values. You know, and that's Shaun: Mm. Scott Leckie: the way you could begin with certain countries in the Middle East, certain countries in Africa. most certainly countries like Uruguay and others in Latin America, Mexico. And then you start getting much more in this direction of a truly global democratic system, which is what I would like to see. You have any thoughts on that? Shaun: that's interesting. I hadn't heard that about Canada, but I'm not I'm not so surprised because the anti American sentiment there is is really high now. I'm about to move I'm Scott Leckie: Huge. Right. Shaun: about to move to Vancouver to live there. And this and the Scott Leckie: That's right. That's right. Shaun: the liquor store shelves are empty of Scott Leckie: Mm. Shaun: American bourbon. And people and people Scott Leckie: Yeah, that's right. That's right. Shaun: are really behind it. They're they've really become quite nationalist, thanks to Trump's threats, so I'm not surprised by that. but it's an interesting it opens up an interesting potential floodgates there because then you ask questions like, is Australia a neighbour of Tahiti? And if it is, then do we have access? so Scott Leckie: Well, we're certainly I mean, I don't know if it's I think there's international waters in between in Shaun: Mm-hmm. Scott Leckie: between New Caledonia and Australia, but we're pretty close. We're pretty close to it, you know. Shaun: Yeah. Yeah. We're not that we're not that far away. But then so I I yeah, it's interesting because the the way that the European Union formed is kind of around this coalescing around this idea of democratic values and and human rights to an extent. Obviously trade is a big part of that, but but then but then you have these complications of like, Well, are we going to admit Ukraine because now Ukraine's under attack, they're our neighbour and we can be next. So like the the joining of Ukraine's not really driven by the common values because let's face it, Ukraine's an ex Russian satellite that's wildly corrupt and is still like a baby little Russia, except they're on our side now. You know, so are people going to want to join that coalition because it's they're sharing the values or is it just because like you know what, we need access to European markets? and then and so Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Right, sure. Sure. Shaun: and so you end up with this sort of a a a new cold economic war. between the states who it it benefits them, which is the smaller the smaller and middle powers, versus then you've got you China, Russia, th and America. tr Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Shaun: there's no way that America wants that on their doorstep, right? They don't even like Cuba. They don't even like Cuba. An insignificant Scott Leckie: Mm. I know. Shaun: little speck in the middle of nowhere and they're seemingly Scott Leckie: Yeah. Yeah. Shaun: terrified of them. S so, Scott Leckie: Uh-huh. Shaun: you know, they do they they want to have a huge economic block to the South. you know, what happens when their citizens get in trouble in, you know, Nicaragua and they're subject to the South American I don't know, maybe South America's part of the European Union somehow. Any French colonies off somewhere off the Yeah, okay, let's say Curacao joins and then it starts a chain reaction, you have the entire South America joined to this European Union then Scott Leckie: Right, right. I mean that's Yeah. But you know I mean, you know what it it it sounds like, you know, esoteric thinking and pie in the sky and you know impossible dream and stuff like that. But y you know, you can say pretty accurately that the reason we don't have more unity amongst peoples on planet Earth generally, not always, but generally comes down to the fact that there's one despot or another running a particular country. Whose own power base is threatened by the thought of being more collaborative and cooperate cooperative with other neighboring nations, right? So, you know, you get rid of all the authoritarians and the autocrats and make it impossible for them to, you know, maintain power, then greater cooperation becomes much more simple. And, you know, one could argue that and and again, the European Union. Is a miracle compared to the previous 2,000 years of history, right? It's it's completely flawed, it's got all sorts of problems, but at the same time, it is a miracle compared to all those years, all those decades, all those centuries of fighting. And so let's see that also kind of as a stepping stone to something bigger. Because if you're born in Germany now, or France or Leak or Luxembourg or anywhere else in the Union. You're not born exclusively as a German or a French citizen anymore or a Dane or whatever you may be. You're also born a European. And that's reflected in your passport. It's reflected in in your citizenship. It's reflected in the rights that you have. All these things. And Shaun: Yeah. Yeah. Scott Leckie: that's a gigantic step towards something you know greater. And e even the Treaty of Maastricht speaks of that ever increasing union, ever greater union with with one another. And so let's expand that to, you know, the whole world as far as I'm concerned. And we do if we do that, even the Economist magazine, not known for its progressive views, they said they have said that if you w if we were to banish borders, get rid of borders and and restrictions on travel, the global economy would double overnight. So Say what you will. There that would probably also bring a lot of extra climate change problems and pollution and and migration and so on and so on. But it would not make the world poorer. It would make the world richer. And there's a lot Shaun: Yeah. Scott Leckie: of arguments in conservative institutions and circles that are pointing much more in this direction of the need to come together rather than to push ourselves further apart, you know? So Shaun: Yeah. Scott Leckie: anything that brings us closer together, that's what I'm into. Shaun: Yeah, I mean that's where you you have to you have to pounce on the political moments when they arrive because authoritarianism and right wing politics is going up and down all the time, right? It it gets very popular, then people say, Okay, this is not really working, we've o out with the Trumps, out with the Orbans, out with the etcetera, etcetera. And then you get a new wave of left left ish politics and you have to do something in that period. And we're approaching that period in two years Scott Leckie: Right. Right. Shaun: time. at least in the States. but my my concern is whether we'll be able to reverse all the damage that's been done, for example, in a if I was an American citizen, I'd be extremely sad and frustrated because I think undoing what what Scott Leckie: absolutely. Shaun: they've done in this administration is going to be close near on impossible. And you know, you and I deal with a lot of humanitarians, thousands of which have been fired and and the budgets for USAID is completely gone. I don't see you ever getting that money back through Congress again. Right? You might get maybe you get thirty percent of it back or something like that. But the the how it was before, that's gone. But something has to be done to sort of reverse this sort of authoritarian trend. and and Scott Leckie: Absolutely. But it's happening, man. It's happening all over the place, I would say, you know, and it's happening i with increasing speed. You know, it it looks like f you know, viewed superficially it looks hopeless, you know, and that it's all gonna be authoritarian and run by AI in in a moment of you know, in a matter of days. But in fact when you Shaun: Yeah. Hell Scott Leckie: start looking at individual cases, things are changing and changing in the right direction, you know, in many cases. Shaun: Yeah, I hope so I mean America's a crazy place, right? Because in the in the midst of all this right wing Republican bullshit that they're that they're spouting, and a lot of it is just straight bullshit, you still get in a you still get a Mam Dani elected in New York. Like America's just a crazy place. but I was gonna ask you, like what's what's your perspective You live in Australia, so what's what's your perspective of the political situation there? Because Australia has in the past, like sort of after the post world war and stuff like that, we're kinda like a little bit of a lapdog to America and we sort of do whatever they want and when they get into a war we send a medical boat. We don't really send people but we you know we we and then we've got American bases there. Yeah, Vietnam, yeah, Korea. And Korea as well. But and some Scott Leckie: Hmm. Well it did in Vietnam. Sent a lot of soldiers in Vietnam up and created. Yes. Shaun: war criminals to Afghanistan, let's not forget that. But Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Shaun: we don't our politics doesn't seem to be skewing as right as it used to be. Like in the Howard years when we were sending people offshore to live in detention centres. We don't seem to be that f I don't I don't I'm not following this closely, but what's your perspective about how the the politics are skewing there at the moment? Scott Leckie: Well, there's so many angles to pursue, but obviously the biggest story right now is the the surge of support for one nation. So, you know, that blows Shaun: Mm. Scott Leckie: that theory out of the water. They they are, you know, in many polls the leading party or the second place party, at Shaun: Really? Scott Leckie: federal level and and at state level. And, you know, we have a an election coming up soon in Victoria in November, which I will do a special podcast on several. and one nation is in some polls leading, man, in the state Shaun: Crazy. Scott Leckie: of Victoria, the most progressive state of all in Australia. Shaun: Ow. Scott Leckie: So yeah, and well, because you know, the same phenomenon is taking place here as as everywhere else, which is, you know, the main part if everything's too expensive. I hate all the current politicians. Let's vote for the renegade, you know? And Shaun: Yeah. Scott Leckie: not even listen to what the renegade says or or look at the logic of it, but you know Foreigners are blamed for everything. Okay, let's just let's vote for them. Yeah. You know, Shaun: Yeah. Scott Leckie: and they don't think it through and they don't realize that, you know, almost every single authoritarian regime that enters power or extreme right wing anti foreigner sentiment driven political parties universally fail. And you know, the list go the list is endless. So it Shaun: Yeah. Scott Leckie: and it most certainly does not serve the voters that vote them into power, the usually the least educated. least economically well off people tend to vote for parties of that nature and the policies they pursue do not benefit the voters that voted for them. And it's Shaun: Yeah. Scott Leckie: sa the same thing happening here. But what you also have happening here is the once center left labor party is now center labor party. And Shaun: Yes. Scott Leckie: with with limited left-wing elements. So that benefits to a degree the Greens who are growing in the polls, around 15 to 16 percent right now, federally. but the coalition comprised of the Liberals and the National Party are in the sh total shambles and Shaun: Mm. Scott Leckie: they have very poor leadership. They're in the they're often third place in the polls, behind one nation and labor, Shaun: Mm. Scott Leckie: and barely ahead of the Greens in some polls. so they have they're in dire political straits and it's so bad that they're openly contemplating joining together in a coalition with one nation, even though some of their politicians say we will never enter a p a coalition with one Shaun: Mm-hmm. Scott Leckie: nation. If political realities necessitated that, I would not put it past them, you know. So Shaun: Yeah. You will if you need to. Scott Leckie: you know there's stories in the newspaper every single day. criticizing the antics of one nation and some of the individual politicians and exposing them for all sorts of things, but their voters and their supporters don't care. And so it's the same exact thing with MAGA. They're just taking all their guidance from the billionaire class and from, you know, American influences and hoping they can do the same thing there. And gee, what a great result they got in America. Wow. Yeah, Shaun: Yeah. Scott Leckie: let's choose let's emulate that. Wouldn't that be wonderful? Are you kidding Shaun: Yeah. Scott Leckie: me? So Let's hope that the compulsory voting system that we have here will force people into moderation. That's what I'm hoping. Because it generally Shaun: Yeah. Yeah. Scott Leckie: does tend to work that way. So let's hope that when the next election comes around, there will be, you know, people when they're in the voting booth will say, you know, do we really want to p you know, threaten the great attributes of this country, you know, where people get along, where people are lighthearted, where Where the tall poppy syndrome is real, you know, where Shaun: Yeah. Scott Leckie: people can talk to everybody anywhere, anytime, and where there's Shaun: It's Scott Leckie: there's at least a sense of egalitarianism still. do we want to really threaten that for some Shaun: Yeah. Scott Leckie: sort of anti anti foreigner driven party that might, you know, totally ignores the fact that migration is Australia's greatest strength? And the migrant population is what has made Australia the wealthy country that it is, you know. And you know, I was thinking about this the other day. How do you address this in ways that will get through to people? And all I could think of was, you know, I've been in the hospital many times in my life, right? The last time I was in the hospital for a really long time, I had my main doctor was Russian, my secondary doctor was Malaysian. I had a great nurse from Kazakhstan. I had f five hundred nurses from the Philippines and from India. And the list goes on. I could name thirty other nationalities that looked after me in the best possible way, you know. Shaun: Mm-hmm. Scott Leckie: I don't want that to go away. Are you kidding me? Who would ever want that to go away? And so, you know, that's the thing people have to realize. If you want to start removing foreigners who have made this country so great, you're going to sh end up shooting yourself in the foot, you know? So hopefully that's true. Shaun: Yeah. I've never I've never had a Caucasian doctor in my life. I live in a small country town in Australia. I grew Scott Leckie: Ha ha ha ha. Shaun: up I grew up in a small country town, one thousand five hundred people. And I haven't had a Scott Leckie: Right. Right. Shaun: doctor who wasn't Indian or Pakistani or Iranian in in the fifty years and I've been absolutely fine. Scott Leckie: And they were and they were pretty damn good doctors, right? Yeah. Shaun: course they're good because nobody no no white Australian medical graduate wants to go and work in some fly spec town in the countryside. So those are the roles that Scott Leckie: That's right. That's right. Shaun: you know we we're imposing on foreign doctors and you know technical skilled workers who come to Australia. They help us to do the jobs that we don't want to do. It's the same every the same everywhere in colonial countries. Scott Leckie: That's right. That's right. But you know, for a lot of people that, you know, are doing it tough, and a lot of people are doing it tough in Australia and everywhere in the world. but you know, people people we didn't even have the global financial crisis in Australia, you know, basically. It totally passed Australia by and the whole rest of the world was in a shambles. Australia was just cruising along and so you know, they don't call it the lucky country Shaun: Thanks, Chana. Scott Leckie: for nothing, you know. That's right. That's right. Good on you, China. but yeah, I mean, every every major city in in China, if you look at it, all that steel that built all those buildings comes from one place, you know, and that happens Shaun: Yep, all the coal. Scott Leckie: to be here. You know, the quarry, the quarry that we are. But, Shaun: Yeah. Scott Leckie: you know, there was an easy ride that Australia had for a long, long time and Shaun: Yeah. Scott Leckie: you know, for decades. And, you know, now the you know, the piper is calling, sort sp you know, so to speak. And Shaun: Yeah. But the thing is when you look at it when you look at Scott Leckie: People wanna blame somebody for it. So they blame the easiest group and then they they they Shaun: There's there's nothing to Scott Leckie: think the authoritarian will win, you know, will give them justice. Shaun: Yeah, but I mean when you look at Australia I think that but the problem for most Australians is they don't realise how good they've got it. You have to you have to Scott Leckie: I know, I know. Shaun: go and live outside of Australia, in somewhere Scott Leckie: Right. Shaun: that's not quite as developed, not as rich, where Scott Leckie: Totally. Shaun: where public services don't work, where you don't have public transport, where you don't have clean rivers, where you don't have health care, where you don't have a social safety network, social network rather. Scott Leckie: That's right. Shaun: I mean it's you know, people in Australia just don't understand how good it is. Right? So this and and we don't we Scott Leckie: I know. And the quality of the food. Shaun: the c everything. So the air, the the nature, all these things. But you don't Scott Leckie: Cleanest air in the world. Shaun: you don't realise that. And also y when you think about the amount of foreigners that are in Australia, it's nothing. Right? Lebanon snow, it's not Scott Leckie: Well it it is sizable. It is sizable. Shaun: it's not sizable. It's in terms of like immigrants or and even what we used to call illegal arrivals. Lebanon has almost as just as many people who are refugees in Lebanon as Lebanese people. You know, Uganda Uganda Uganda has just as many refugees as it has Ugandans, right? Uganda's not rich, Scott Leckie: that well compared to Lebanon, yes, yes. Yeah, yeah, that's true. That's true. All right. Shaun: right? Scott Leckie: Well, what about Iran? Think of all the Afghan refugees they used to host, you know, millions and millions, right? The list goes on. But still, we are a migrant Shaun: Yeah. Yeah. So Scott Leckie: society. We're a multicultural, beautiful migrant society that has benefited so successfully that Shaun: And it worked well for us. Yeah. We were very Scott Leckie: You know, it's insane that people would question that, you know. Shaun: We're very happy to have migrant workers come in and do all the work, you know. my brother's latest book, which I'm not sure if I if I put you onto, but is talking about the history of slave trade in Australia of all the Pacific Islanders who came were who were kidnapped. Kidnapped from the Pacific Scott Leckie: All right. Yes. Shaun: Islands and put to work on the sugarcane plantations to make the Scott Leckie: Plantations. Yes. Shaun: c to make some of Australia's richest individuals eventually, and have companies like CSR, which is still running, become wildly successful. You know? So Scott Leckie: Right. Right. Right. Yeah. So I mean there's a lot of there's a lot of bad history here. There's no doubt about that. from the beginning. But what it's Shaun: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So but the thing is Scott Leckie: become really amazing. Shaun: But your your point before is, I think, is is what it's really about is if you take someone from Kentucky who's from a lower socio economic class and say, Look, the guy you're voting for is A a liar, B a billionaire who wouldn't talk to you in the street, and C is going to dismantle the healthcare programs that you are the biggest recipient of, it wouldn't matter. Scott Leckie: Mhm. Right, that's right. That's right. No, they just want the great leader to help them, you know? Shaun: Because they just don't care and no no one wants to think about that. So yeah, so I d I just don't know how you defeat that. Because you can't do it with reason, right? Hillary Clinton tried that. She got absolutely destroyed. Scott Leckie: That's right. And you don't dis but you don't dismiss the the concerns of people is what you don't do. You know, you listen to people and you and you don't call them Shaun: No, no, no, I mean she she made a s very silly mistake. Scott Leckie: names, you know, you don't call them deplorables or whatever they may be. Yeah, you you know, Shaun: Basket the basket of deplorables. Scott Leckie: y you put policies and laws into place that can benefit the people who need it the most, you know, and that's the way you take the wind out of the sails of of right wing authoritarians, I think. You know, and sh and really convincingly show them that you don't You don't blame foreigners for these problems, you know. They they come about because of the nature of the political structures and the the political and economic system we have, you know? And, you know, Shaun: You what I would Scott Leckie: part of it you can't do much about because, you know, you're you're part of the international economy and things happen elsewhere which have an impact, like oil. You know, Australia only has like, I think on average, something like thirty five days of oil in reserve here. Like if they shut off the oil, we it would run out in thirty five days. That's amazing. You know? Like that Shaun: Yeah. That's crazy. Scott Leckie: is staggeringly scary, you know? So you know. Shaun: Yeah, yeah. I mean what I was gonna say about the states though is that we were talking about about what would happen with the budgets if you had a more a democratic government come in and reinstate these UN budgets and the USA budgets and all that stuff. What I would like I would like that to not happen. I would like for a a democratic government to come in and say, you know what, our healthcare is totally screwed. We don't have any like any unemployment benefits for someone who is unemployed for a long time. We don't have any social housing. You know, we people are d going broke from insurance from having car accidents. all that money, those billions of dollars, let's put it into our own economy and and make it better systems for people and work on our own poverty and homelessness and healthcare and all of those things and pay some reparations for the fact that we use slavery to build this entire country. Rather than going into Scott Leckie: Well, you can do both. You can do you can do both. Yes, of course. All you need to do is tax the thousand billionaires that live there. There's Shaun: Could you? I mean Yeah. I mean Obama could Obama couldn't even Scott Leckie: a thousand billionaires that live in the United States, right? They pay an average of three point five percent tax or something like that, you know. So tax them at eighty percent like they used to be, ninety percent even. Tax them at fifty percent, whatever. You can pull in hundreds of billions that way. And, you know, take a portion of it and use it in a for a kind of new A new improved UN 2.0 and then use the rest to solve the social crisis that affects all of America. That another thing that no one ever talks about. You know, I mean sixty to seventy percent of Americans are one paycheck away from from destitution. That's unbelievable. That's two hundred plus million people who are one paycheck away from poverty, man, in the richest country on earth. Are you kidding me? You don't vote for an extremist racist authoritarian to dig you out of that hole 'cause they're not going to. You know, you vote for Shaun: Yeah. Yeah. But they keep doing it. Scott Leckie: people and parties that will do it, you know? Yeah, it's sad, man. Shaun: Yeah. I'm just think I was just having a l I'm having a little flashback actually when we were talking before about about George Bush. And we were talking about the UN stuff. like George Bush going to the UN before Iraq and like talking about the case making the case for invasion with Mr Mr Mr. Scott Leckie: Uh-huh. Shaun: Powell. That's crazy that that that's just those days are gone. That's and that seemed Scott Leckie: Holding up. Shaun: like that seemed like dictatorship back then. Scott Leckie: I know. And look at it now. They wouldn't even they wouldn't even spend a minute there. Yeah, it's crazy. Shaun: Well, Iran, look at Iran, you know. So things have Scott Leckie: It never ends, man. It never ends. But you know, you know, every every regime rises and falls, every you know, no country lasts forever. change is the only inherent permanent thing. So we just have to hope that at some point we finally as a species realize that you know, coming together is gonna end up a end this all up a lot better off than continuing to fight these Pathetic wars and Shaun: Yeah. Scott Leckie: to have this much inequality. You know, the Gilded Age looks like the fairest region fairest period of history ever compared to today. I mean, if you look at the scale of income inequality on on planet Earth now, it's just astronomical. You know, the highest ever, highest ever in the history of our species is right now, you know. Shaun: Yeah. Yeah, and yet the and yet the wealth generation is as high as it's ever been at the same time. So you know what mean? Yeah. So it's it's Scott Leckie: Yeah. We've got, you know, we are smart enough to create a global economy of a hundred and twenty trillion dollars a year, which is quite a feat, right? I mean, together we did that. But what if we took that and divided it up a bit more equitably and really put it towards problem solving, you know? Like 'cause now, I mean, the the latest news today, like there are all these scientists that said we've we've absolutely destroyed the planet beyond repair, essentially, right? And all of these tipping points have have been passed. And there's no way we're gonna kind of come back from them. And that's on top of AI and climate change and nuclear weapons and conflict and so on. And so it's like, what are we doing? You know, so the only way we're ever going to solve these things is have a unified structure that is dedicated to problem solving, not protecting national interests, solving problems. You know, like like the Ministry for the Future. Did you read that book, The Ministry for the Future by Kim Stanley Robinson? Totally great book, man. You gotta read Shaun: no. Mm. Scott Leckie: it if you haven't read it. Fantastic. One of the great sci fi writers talks about this the creation of the ministry for the future. That's what it's called. It's like becomes a UN body. And their job is to s to preserve life on Earth, right? And they succeed. And it's fantastic. It's such a positive kind of book. We need a ministry. for the future in the real world, you know. So on that note Shaun: Mm. Yeah. No, it's interesting we s we started the we started the conversation talking about these HLP issues and talking about how, you know, this is really dependent on the political will. And and like moving to this conversation, it's it just it just shows you that politics is really the political will and the politics is really all that's required to resolve the issue. 'Cause the HLP issues, what are they really? Scott Leckie: That's right. Shaun: They're issues about resources. resource allocation and resource sharing. And it really just if Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Shaun: it if we had the political will, you can do anything. Scott Leckie: can do anything. There's nothing beyond our capacity if we make the right decisions. You know, there's no problem that can't be solved. And, you know, countries across the world have solved little problems here and there and, you know, problems that seemed impossible before. And they put their mind to it and they did it. So what we need to do is do that at a at a global level and a, you know, with the mutual respect and mutual care and concern and and you know, build the compassionate society that we should all have as a birthright, you know, and then Shaun: Yeah. Yeah. Scott Leckie: move on. We've already done so much as a species. Let's move to the next stage and do it yet better, you know. Yeah. And remember that Shaun: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. We didn't even we didn't even get to the discussion about about AI or climate change. But as you were mentioning that I f I feel like AI has almost pushed climate change off the off the discussion agenda, actually. So that's Scott Leckie: yeah, they call it they call it climate hushing now. They call it climate hushing. Even at the UN. Hushing. Yeah. So it's a it's Shaun: interesting. Scott Leckie: a thing. You're not supposed to talk about it, you know? So you just hush hush. Hush hush. Yeah. So they're trying to Shaun: Interesting. Scott Leckie: like overcome that right now in the General Assembly meetings and stuff and side meetings. But but yeah, these are Shaun: Hmm. That's a sad Scott Leckie: these are like earth threatening phenomenon happening as we speak. And Shaun: Yeah. Yeah. Scott Leckie: unless we all put our minds together and try to deal with it. You know, how did AI suddenly become this threat to the human race? You know, it'd be it was meant to just be this advanced computer thing that could do stuff faster and better than ever before. Now it's gonna wipe out all of humanity. You Shaun: Mm-hmm. Scott Leckie: know, and we allow this to happen. We we consciously enable it to do this? Are you kidding me? You know? Shaun: Did did I think you and I I were talking about this this podcast f finally probably four years ago now. It was a discussion between Mo Gardat, who used to be the head of Google's AI program, and on this podcast, Dairy, the CEO, and he was talking about the fact that the only thing that will save humanity from AI is if AI decides to go in into another solar system and just leave completely because humanity is too stupid to deal with. it's it's too insignificant. You said it'll be like humans to AI will be like ants underneath your feet. It's like there's no point wiping us out 'cause you're insignificant. Scott Leckie: Well, it's sorta feel starting to feel like that. It is starting to feel like that in some ways. I I you know Shaun: It's Scott Leckie: what's gonna happen in my in my humble opinion, I think a lot of people are going to start communities which are AI free zones and that they're gonna build their communities on the basis of that and just keep it out in whatever way Shaun: Mm-hmm. Und wie sie was. Scott Leckie: they can. It might be it might be difficult or impossible, but they will try. Shaun: But it'll be totally exclusive. It'll be totally exclusive. You'll have to pay premium you'll Scott Leckie: Could be really low. Shaun: have to be pay premium dollar for the human experience. That's what'll happen. It'll get monetised. Scott Leckie: Well, that's you know, people are kind of getting into the human ex Shaun: Mm. Scott Leckie: human experience now, you know, like people are going like, cool, man, you're actually human, you know, like you like it never came up before, right? Shaun: Handmade. Yeah. Scott Leckie: And now it's like, it's an actual human on the phone from that factory, you know, it's not a machine. Wow, that's so cool. You know, Shaun: Yeah. Yeah. Scott Leckie: that's the kind of direction we're going. And then and Shaun: Absolutely. Scott Leckie: yet we have all this connection and then we have this plague of of loneliness. on planet Earth too, on top of everything else. I mean that's Shaun: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Scott Leckie: just staggering to me. You can communicate with anyone on planet Earth in one second right now, and yet half the world is totally lonely. And living alone too. Shaun: Yeah yeah yeah. But that's why that but that's why yeah that's why robots will be d d serving not only as companions, they'll be preser they'll be they'll be performing sex acts, they'll be performing like intimacy functions, they'll also be doing your tax and cooking you dinner. And and and Scott Leckie: And cleaning. Yeah. Shaun: and the question is are you having a real relationship? W what is a real? Of course. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Scott Leckie: Well people are already doing it with their their chat bots, you know, all over the place. Yeah. I said the best relationship I ever had, they're saying, you know. I kinda pay my god, that's so bad. So not me. don't want it. Don't want it, don't Shaun: course it is. No one's questioning you. Yeah. Yeah. I I was reading a few few months ago that chatbots had helped someone commit suicide in the States. And so we're saying Scott Leckie: Yes. Shaun: things like, I'm not here to stop you, but maybe I can help you write your letter. And Al and Sam Scott Leckie: my god. Shaun: Altman, all he had to say about it was, hmm. society's very good at coming up with solutions. They'll find something to resolve that sort of issue. Scott Leckie: my god. Yeah. Well he Shaun: mais. Scott Leckie: he also said, you know, he also said almost for sure humanity will be wiped out, but in the meantime, a lot of companies will make a lot of money, you know, about AI. that's great. You know? Shaun: Yeah. Well he's right already. Yeah. Scott Leckie: Fuck that. Not doing it. Okay, man. Thank you so much for the conversation today. We'll do it again about Shaun: Well, welcome. Scott Leckie: housing land and property rights and a range of other pressing issues. you're you're gonna Shaun: Thanks having me. It's really good to have a s good chat. Scott Leckie: you're gonna move to Canada soon, I hear. Shaun: That's right. First in November, Vancouver. Scott Leckie: Right. Do you think you'll ever cross the border into the United States or will you boycott it like everyone else? Shaun: I don't have any plan to but I do have a lot of I do have a lot of friends in the States to visit. particularly some of our Myanmar colleagues who who managed to escape the coup are there. So I'd like to catch up with them because that's very difficult for them to go back. and yeah. So I I probably will visit the Great Satan at some point. But Scott Leckie: Ha ha ha. Shaun: Not not too frequently, I think. Canada's a pretty nice place. Scott Leckie: Good luck. Well Vancouver Vancouver's a pretty good place to end up, man. I I lived there for a while in the nineteen eighties and it's pretty good. Shaun: Yeah. Pretty good spot. Scott Leckie: Pretty good. Actually especially the islands around it. They're really amazing. So yeah. You have a Shaun: Yeah, well yeah. That's Scott Leckie: lot to look forward to. Shaun: yeah, I'm looking forward to it. I think it's gonna be great. But yeah, thanks for having me on. It's good to discuss pretty wide ranging discussion. So I enjoyed it a lot. Scott Leckie: Me too. Thank you very much. Well, that was Sean Buta speaking to us today from Barcelona and Spain and on his way to Canada about housing land and property rights and everything else. that was our episode for today for Democracy Tomorrow. We'll be back soon with another episode. We'll see you next time. Keep the messages coming and like and subscribe. Helps us a lot to do what we want to do. Thanks for watching, everybody. Take care, bye. Okay, I'm stopping the recording now.