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S2E7 - Navigating Sibling Conflict: Listener Q&A with Hayley · Play Therapy Parenting: Real Parenting Questions Answered by a Child Therapist

• 0:02
  You're listening to the
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  Play Therapy Parenting Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks.
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  Hi, I'm Dr. Brenna Hicks, The Kid Counselor.
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  This is the Play Therapy Parenting Podcast where I give
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  you insight awareness and enlightenment about your parenting
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  and your relationship with your kids.
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  In today's episode. I am answering a question from Hayley in Australia.
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  So hello down under, thank you Hayley for sending me an email
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  and she actually gave me a part one and a part two.
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  So she submitted her question and then as a result
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  of something that happened subsequently to her emailing me,
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  she actually kind of gave me more in depth scenarios
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  and, you know, the situations in which she's struggling. So
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  I kind of combined the two emails and I'm gonna read parts of both
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  so that you can get a sense of what's going on. But basically her question
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  is she feels like she's doing everything that we talk about.
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  So she's getting on their eye level, she's validating their feelings,
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  she's setting limits,
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  but the behavior isn't changing
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  and she doesn't see that the kids seem to want to
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  help to solve the problem specifically around them hitting each other.
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  So she has a son and a daughter
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  and they seem to be at odds and then they
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  tend to get a little bit physical with each other.
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  So five year old boy and 2.5 year old daughter
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  constantly at each other and getting a little
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  bit physical with hitting and things like that.
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  So
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  Hayley,
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  thank you so much for reaching out and giving me
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  such helpful back story on what's going on and,
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  and sharing a little bit about your
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  approach.
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  And so I have some helpful insight for you.
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  And I think this will be helpful for all of
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  us because inevitably we end up feeling like sometimes even when
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  we say the things that we think we're supposed to and
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  we do the things that we think we're supposed to,
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  it may not have the outcome that we're hoping for
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  and it can be a little bit tricky to figure out why.
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  So I think this will be really helpful for everybody.
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  So we're going to,
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  I'll read part of her email and then I'll share
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  some thoughts and suggestions on how best to handle it.
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  The path to calm, confident and in control parenting starts now.
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  All right. So portions of Hayley's email include these questions and comments.
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  I do get down on my kids' level when they're angry and they both have a
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  hitting tendency because they're very different personalities and
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  are also at a very different play stage.
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  And naturally they don't understand each other,
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  I guess I'm finding that I do it all.
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  But I don't see any attempt to, for them to try to problem
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  solve
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  or understand healthy conflict resolution.
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  I need a short script for this because I'm finding they lose interest and
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  move on when I'm hearing both sides out and I'm in problem solving mode,
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  nothing has actually changed.
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  Even when I set the boundary,
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  they've been hitting one another at different times on
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  and off since my youngest started walking at 11 months
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  in regulated states,
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  I talked to each of them separately to reinforce the validation of the feelings.
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  For example, it's hard being a big brother.
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  It's hard being a little sister, et cetera.
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  Even my oldest told me the other day,
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  he thinks he would be happier if his little sister wasn't here.
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  I also try and play out scenes in their play to
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  help them integrate the anger as it relates to one another.
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  But I need help with how to do this from a child-centered perspective.
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  So then she gives me a scenario in the second email we got home.
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  My daughter went into my son's room without asking.
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  She likes to get into his things and
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  he got upset. We've explained that she can't enter his room without his permission,
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  but she doesn't have logic yet and she's testing limits.
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  This didn't end well.
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  He hit her.
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  I briefly acknowledged how painful that would have been for her and
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  I went to check in with him to hear his side,
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  it ended up escalating. It led to more rage.
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  So I sat with him and let him process what had been building all week.
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  So then she says I contained the fire by talk,
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  taking him to his room and sitting with him in his room.
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  I've not seen him express anger and rage like this before.
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  His usual style in a response is to avoid or fawn, but he was throwing books,
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  hitting the door, telling me he was going to hit me.
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  I held the boundaries by holding his legs when he attempted to kick the walls,
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  held his hands when he attempted to hit me
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  and explained that my job was to keep both of us safe and safety
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  meant holding his legs or arms so that he wouldn't hurt himself or me.
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  He then told me to get out of his room so I respected his wish.
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  But I did tell him I wouldn't leave him alone and I'd be right outside the door.
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  When I was outside of his door, I would gently say I'm here. You're not alone.
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  I'm not afraid of your anger.
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  He then opened the door and asked me to come back in.
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  So I did and I sat there with him,
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  but the anger and rage continued with him throwing or attempting to throw books at me
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  and me gathering the books so that he couldn't throw them.
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  I sat with it all told him it's so frustrating being a big brother sometimes,
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  especially when his little sister invades his space.
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  He didn't want to listen, was trying to distract me.
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  I told him I didn't care about the book. I cared about being there with him.
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  He still had a lot of big angry energy he needed to move on.
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  And in reflection, I wonder if I overdid it by holding the space for so long.
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  I'm just so tired of the hitting and the hurt and the hostility.
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  We need greater harmony and I don't know how we can achieve this. Please help.
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  All right.
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  So Hayley,
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  thank you so much for being so vulnerable and so thorough and helping me understand
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  what's going on so that I can address some
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  issues here.
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  So I have five thoughts that I want to kind of unpack for you all.
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  And I think first and foremost,
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  it's really important to remember that words matter,
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  especially when we're setting limits.
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  So the neutral way that we phrase our limits
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  is one of the most make or break parts of the limit setting process.
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  And it's interesting that we just covered the limit
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  setting skill this week earlier in the week.
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  So if you kind of couple this podcast with the Tuesday podcast,
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  I think it will be really helpful for you to kind of see the limit setting process.
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  But
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  I noticed in your email you said I can't let you hit your sister.
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  Ok. We have to be very careful with our phrasing and it has to be neutral.
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  So we don't ever want to say you can't do that. I can't let you. It's not a good idea.
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  That's not ok. You shouldn't do that.
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  That's not allowed, that's against the rules.
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  And those are all the things that we say as parents to kids all the time.
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  But the child-centered approach
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  is A, is not for B
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  or X is for Y.
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  So we would say your sister is not for hitting
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  or your sister is not for hurting
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  because it's very clear
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  that it's just a neutral limit.
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  There's no other nuance there. It's not.
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  I'm in charge, I'm insisting, I'm enforcing, I'm upset about it.
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  I don't want you to do it. I can't let you do it. None of those vibes are worked in.
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  It's completely calm, it's completely neutral.
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  You say it as if it's a fact like the grass is green,
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  the sky is blue.
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  You state it as a completely calm, neutral, natural thing
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  with no emotion from your end.
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  I can't let you hit. Your sister
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  puts you in charge, it puts you in a position of authority.
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  It automatically creates a power struggle
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  and your child doesn't feel that it's a neutral, calm
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  explanation.
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  It feels like there's an agenda.
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  So your sister is not for hitting or your sister
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  is not for hurting is how we wanna phrase that.
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  So you're really upset that she came into your room,
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  but your sister is never for hitting.
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  You can choose to come tell me that she came in your room and I will have her leave
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  or you can choose to ask her to get out.
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  So that is your limit setting process and your words matter.
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  So that's point number one
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  second is I'm going to challenge probably most of you
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  that have multiple children. So all of you parents have only children.
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  You're off the hook here.
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  But if you have more than one child,
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  I want you to consider something
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  and I don't want to ruffle feathers and I don't mean this to come
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  across in any way as accusation or judgmental or any of those things.
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  If you've been with me for a long time,
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  you know how deeply I care about your kids and you and all I'm doing is helping.
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  So please don't shoot the messenger. But I feel compelled to point out
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  a little discussed
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  fact here,
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  babies of the family get away with everything
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  and the oldest child always absolute on purpose, feels slighted.
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  The oldest child always feels frustrated.
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  The oldest child always feels that nothing is fair
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  and babies get away with everything.
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  So Hayley, that's not an accusation,
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  it's not something you need to feel guilty about.
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  It's the nature of birth order.
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  Ok.
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  So we know if we look at the roles in the family and we understand
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  how every person in the family adopts a
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  personality and people respond to that personality.
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  We know statistically and we can look at research and data
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  and we know that babies get leniency and they get forgiveness
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  and they get grace and they very infrequently get punished,
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  they very infrequently get consequences
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  and here's how we justify it.
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  Well, they're little, they don't know,
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  she's only 2.5. She doesn't know
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  2.5 year olds
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  can abide by limits.
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  2.5 year olds should have consequences for their behaviors.
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  They should be age appropriate.
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  We can't expect them to be developmentally above their level,
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  but a 2.5 year old can absolutely have consequences for behaviors.
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  So when she chooses to go in his room,
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  that is a choice just like he's choosing to hit her
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  and they both need correction and they both need consequences.
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  So I just feel compelled.
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  I'm huge into birth order and I'm huge
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  into the relationship dynamics that birth order creates.
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  So I think it's very important for all of us to keep in mind
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  and oldest is always going to be resentful
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  of the youngest getting away with everything.
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  And while that's not true because it's not always unfair to
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  the oldest and the youngest doesn't always get away with everything
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  that is the pervasive perception of what's going on,
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  which creates all kinds of resentment and frustration
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  and intolerance and impatience and et cetera,
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  et cetera, et cetera.
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  So
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  that is a huge piece of this Hayley.
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  It's very important that
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  your son see your daughter
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  have the same limits and consequences and outcomes that he does
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  when she chooses to go into his room and violate his space.
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  She's choosing a negative consequence, just like when he chooses to hit her,
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  he's choosing a negative consequence.
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  So that's a very important piece.
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  Babies can't be given a free pass even though they're young and
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  they're the youngest.
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  OK. Topic, number three,
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  rule of thumb from the parent coaching program that I use child,
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  parent relationship training
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  "when a child is drowning, it's not the time to teach them to swim."
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  So in both scenarios that you described Hayley,
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  your son was drowning,
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  it's not the time to teach them to swim.
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  It's not the time to have a discussion.
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  It's not the time to help them sort out their feelings.
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  It's not the time to understand his or her side.
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  It's not the time to do anything other than
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  reflect their feeling and sit in the pocket of,
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  of their emotion.
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  So we have to be really careful.
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  They don't have abstract reasoning, they don't have their brain engaged.
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  It's all 100% from their feelings.
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  So when they are that overwhelmed by their feelings,
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  it's extremely powerful for you to just sit
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  and acknowledge their feeling and let that be enough.
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  So we have to reserve conversation, we have to reserve setting rules,
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  setting expectations, teaching lessons, helping them see the big picture.
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  We have to reserve that for a calm, neutral moment,
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  not when the child is completely overwhelmed and upheaved by their feelings.
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  So no discussion and no dialogue should ever take place
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  when a child is overwrought with their feelings.
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  Let me say that again. No discussion and no dialogue should ever take place
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  when a child is overwrought by their feelings.
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  So if he's losing his mind, throwing books, screaming, crying,
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  you can set limits on the behavior.
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  But otherwise all you're going to do is reflect the feeling.
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  That's what they need. That's all they can handle.
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  So when a child is drowning, it's not the time to teach them to swim.
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  Thought number four,
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  you need to provide choices for alternatives. So
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  I heard your frustration.
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  I heard you talking about how you feel like you're doing all the right things,
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  but nothing changes.
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  And you're not really sure why
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  my contention is, although I'm not there and I haven't ever seen you try to set limits
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  my contention is that you're not providing
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  them with alternatives for the next time.
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  They're in that scenario.
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  And I actually talked about this on the Tuesday episode.
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  So they have to know what they can do instead.
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  So you can't just say your sister is not for hurting or your sister's not for hitting
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  or to her. Your brother's room is not for going into.
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  You have to give them options so that they can replace that behavior.
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  So what are their choices
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  if she wants to go into his room? Is it because she wants to be with him?
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  Is it because she wants someone to play with?
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  Is it because she wants a toy that's in there?
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  Is it because she wants to get a reaction out of him?
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  I'm not sure. You probably know that better than me
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  when he gets mad and hits her.
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  Is it because he feels that she doesn't listen?
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  Is it because he's asked her 100 times not to go in there? And he feels like he never
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  gets her to comply?
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  Is it because he's just so mad? He doesn't know what to do with those big feelings.
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  We have to get to the why behind the behavior first
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  and then we provide choices.
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  So we might say you can choose to come tell me that she came in your room
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  or you can choose to ask her to leave for her. You can choose to
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  ask him for a toy
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  if you think that's why she's going in there
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  or you can choose to come play with me instead if she wants a playmate, right?
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  You want the choice that's given to map to the original intent.
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  What is the why behind the inappropriate behavior
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  allow them to replace that inappropriate
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  behavior with something that's appropriate?
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  But they have to be given those alternatives.
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  They can't come up with them on their own.
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  They don't know what to do. Instead, they're just gonna do what they've always done
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  unless you give them new options to replace the original behavior with.
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  So it's very, very important that you not only reflect their feelings,
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  you set the neutral limit, then you have to provide the choice and the alternative
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  and then you fall back on that choice.
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  So
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  if the child does not choose one of those things,
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  then you fall back on that choice.
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  You chose to scream and yell when she came in your room.
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  But that's not part of the choice.
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  The choices are you can choose to ask her to leave or you
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  can choose to come tell me that she came in your room,
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  notice that you're equipping them with other options
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  so that they are able to stay regulated.
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  Ok? And then last, but not least,
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  I think brevity might be your friend Hayley and it's all of our
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  friend even though we have a hard time with it often as adults.
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  So the final thought again,
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  rule of thumb from the child parent relationship training program.
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  "If you can't say it in 10 words or less, don't say it."
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  So what I
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  read through all of your email with me was that you spend a
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  lot of time trying to talk to your kids about what's going on.
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  But if you can't say it in 10 words or less, don't say it.
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  They tune out after a word 10.
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  So anything 11 and on,
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  they have completely checked out,
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  they no longer engage, they're no longer receiving it,
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  they're no longer processing it.
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  They
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  just see your mouth moving and hear. Wah, wah, wah.
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  Ok.
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  So it's very, very important that you are as brief, clear and concise as possible
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  because the more concise and brief you are,
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  the more your child can actually hear what you have to say.
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  So
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  instead of belaboring the point and finding out what happened and trying
• 17:16
  to get to the bottom and how did that make you feel?
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  And why did you do that? And what exactly took place and what, what
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  they're 2.5 and five,
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  they don't have verbal skills, they don't want to talk to you.
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  They don't feel good talking.
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  It's not easy for them to talk,
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  it puts them in their heads and that's not where they wanna be.
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  So the more that you can be extremely brief, extremely concise,
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  give them very, very short dialogue,
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  the more you will see that they are better able to receive that information,
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  process that information and then that will
• 17:50
  actually help them change their behavior.
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  Notice that limits are very short,
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  all three components of limit setting is less than 10 words.
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  You're really mad. Your sister came in your room, you're really mad.
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  Your sister came in,
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  oh,
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  that was nine. That was close.
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  But remember you can also just say you're really mad.
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  You don't always have to have the qualifier.
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  Ok.
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  Your sister is not for hitting, that's six.
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  And then your each individual choice is very short.
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  You can choose to tell me
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  or you can choose to ask her to leave.
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  Those are all very brief
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  10 words or less statements.
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  You have to keep things very short sweet and to the point
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  where kids check out and it no longer even registers.
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  And then at that point, all of you are frustrated,
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  your kids are frustrated that you won't stop talking.
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  You're frustrated that they're no longer listening,
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  nothing changes. So then everyone's frustrated.
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  So do yourself a favor. And if you can't say it in 10 words or less, don't say it.
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  So Hayley, thank you so much for the email.
• 18:52
  Thank you for filling me in on what's going on and
• 18:54
  you are doing all of the components,
• 18:58
  I think with these tweaks, it will make a huge difference.
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  And I hope that that's very helpful for the rest of you
• 19:03
  because obviously, when we face situations like this,
• 19:06
  we always feel like there are challenges that we can't always anticipate.
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  And so having some extra tips and extra strategies are always helpful when we're
• 19:15
  trying to make sure that our children are able to comply with our limits.
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  So hope that all of you are able to work on limit setting this week.
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  That's your challenge.
• 19:23
  If there is a behavior that is unacceptable
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  rather than going to your traditional methods of discipline.
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  I challenge you to use the three step process
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  and set limits in the child-centered model according to the limit setting pillar.
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  And I would love to hear from you.
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  I would love to get some updates of how that goes and what your child's responses are.
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  Whatever you think you would love to share.
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  I'd love to hear from you, brenna@thekidcounselor.com.
• 19:49
  Don't forget that if you go to www.playtherapyparenting.com,
• 19:54
  you can sign up for my newsletter and I'll
• 19:55
  send you a video on the birth order workshop.
• 19:58
  Speaking of birth order, I know I just talked about it in this episode.
• 20:01
  So if you're intrigued,
• 20:02
  I'd love to get you signed up for the newsletter and send you that video.
• 20:06
  I am so grateful for you. Thank you for spending a part of your week with me.
• 20:10
  Thank you for working so hard on being the best parents that you can be.
• 20:14
  Thank you for investing in your kids investing in your relationship.
• 20:17
  My vision is a world full of happy kids who become happy adults
• 20:21
  and the way that we can ensure that and the way
• 20:23
  that we can hope for that
• 20:25
  is doing everything we can in their childhood
• 20:29
  to create the kind of outcome that we want, which is that they become happy adults.
• 20:33
  So be proud of the work that you're doing.
• 20:35
  Be proud of the investment that you're making in your kids and in your family.
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  In your relationship with your kids.
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  I can't reiterate that enough.
• 20:43
  It all comes down to the relationship, preservation of the relationship,
• 20:47
  nurturing of the relationship, establishment of a healthy, safe, loving,
• 20:51
  accepting relationship.
• 20:53
  And that's why you listen, that's why you do the work. That's why you put in the time.
• 20:57
  That's why you send me emails. It's all to that end.
• 21:00
  So I hope that you feel very encouraged and proud of that
• 21:03
  and that's definitely something to celebrate.
• 21:05
  So happy first week of April
• 21:08
  and I will talk with you again soon. Bye.
• 21:12
  Thank you for listening
• 21:13
  to the Play Therapy Parenting Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks
• 21:17
  for more episodes and just subscribe to our newsletter.
• 21:20
  Please go to www.playtherapyparenting.com.