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America’s Crime Crisis: Politics & Fallout (Part 2) · Heroes Behind the Badge

0:05
Paul Boomer: Welcome back to Heroes Behind the Badge.
0:07
This is part two of our conversation with crime data expert Len Sipes
0:11
about the hidden reality behind America's crime statistics.
0:15
In part one, we learned about the shocking 44% increase in violent
0:19
crime revealed by the National Crime Victimization Survey data that
0:24
most Americans never heard about.
0:26
Today we're exploring the real world consequences of this statistical
0:30
manipulation from Baltimore's crime crisis to the debate over federal
0:34
intervention in high crime cities.
0:36
We're examining how incomplete data leads to dangerous policy decisions.
0:41
We'll also discuss why the media isn't reporting the complete picture,
0:44
the role of politics in crime reporting, and what this means for
0:47
the safety of American families.
0:49
This isn't just about numbers.
0:51
It's about a human cost of misleading statistics and the brave law enforcement
0:55
officers trying to protect communities with their hands tied behind their backs.
0:59
Let's continue our conversation with Len.
1:01
Craig Floyd: So, so here's a great example of what we're talking about.
1:04
So, president Trump has threatened to send in the, the feds to
1:09
Baltimore, Maryland, right?
1:11
Mm-hmm.
1:11
Um.
1:12
The governor of Maryland, the mayor of Baltimore, uh, so many of the liberals are
1:18
saying, well, that, that's unnecessary.
1:20
Baltimore is, is the rate of crime in Baltimore is going down.
1:25
It's safe.
1:26
It's a safe city.
1:27
We don't need your help.
1:29
I look at the top 10 US cities by homicide rate that, that you sent me.
1:35
Baltimore fourth in the country.
1:38
Yeah.
1:39
Uh, the highest rate of homicides of any city Right.
1:42
In America, top US cities, uh, by violent crime rate.
1:47
Okay.
1:47
Not just homicides, but violent crime, Baltimore moves up to number three.
1:52
Mm-hmm.
1:52
The third highest crime rate, violent crime rate in the country.
1:57
Yeah.
1:57
So for, for Maryland's governor, for, uh, Baltimore's mayor to say
2:01
that Baltimore is a safe city.
2:03
Uh, they, they really don't understand, uh, what they're talking about.
2:07
Is that fair to say?
2:09
Um,
2:12
Len Sipes: I look, when we are talking about sending the National
2:17
Guard into a city, um, you know, my 50 years in the criminal justice
2:23
system basically says we've never done that before except for riots.
2:28
Um, using them in terms of day-to-day crime is something that is a radical move
2:35
that makes people feel uncomfortable.
2:37
I mean, I, I, I, look, one of the things that I do in terms of my writing
2:41
is that I understand, and I think you all understand too, there are more
2:45
independents in this country than there are Republicans or Democrats individually.
2:50
Okay, so I am in my writings, I'm trying to be fair.
2:54
I'm trying to, uh, get people to wanna be, because if reporters who see my stuff
2:58
and read my stuff and are influenced by my stuff, if I just come out and say,
3:02
president Trump, is a is right, and, and, um, you know, we should be going in with
3:06
the National Guard, with every city, they would not pay attention to what I write.
3:10
So this is a radical development on the part of the president.
3:14
Will it work?
3:15
Only the courts are going to be able to tell us, and, and, and time will be able
3:20
to tell us if this is going to work.
3:22
The early findings on the part of Washington D.C. um, is that it is working.
3:27
It is dramatically reducing crime.
3:29
Should we do it in other cities?
3:31
Well, I can guarantee you that there are advisors to President Trump based.
3:35
Basically begging him not to send the National Guard into other cities.
3:38
Washington D.C. is a unique city.
3:40
It's the nation's capital.
3:42
Um, but do you really want to have these huge protests, um, in these other cities?
3:49
Are there different ways of doing it?
3:50
And I think President Trump is basically sending a message to the rest of the
3:54
country, basically saying, you better get your act together in terms of violent
4:00
crime in your city, or I'm gonna come in with a National Guard and I'm gonna
4:04
come in with additional federal agents.
4:06
I think he's using this as a warning to other cities.
4:09
Uh, will he do it in other cities?
4:11
I don't know.
4:12
Um, I don't have a clue as to what's going happen in terms of other
4:15
cities, but I think the president is basically warning other people and
4:19
through media reports, other cities are beginning to take this seriously.
4:24
Other cities are beginning to say, Hey, you know what?
4:27
Maybe they should come to my city, maybe.
4:29
Bill Erfurth: Well, you know, it's the, it's in our city.
4:31
It's the omnipresence of the police, right?
4:33
I mean, we've heard that term used forever.
4:36
If the police are out there, you see 'em, you're less inclined to commit a crime.
4:40
I'm sure that's what's happening there in Washington D.C. Yeah, and
4:44
probably with the National Guard and the Feds that have come in there,
4:47
they're augmenting the locals, they're probably put together a task force.
4:51
They're doubling up in cars or tripling up in cars, whatever they're
4:54
doing, and they're able to go out there and proactively arrest people
4:58
on warrants and go after the drug dealers and all the other lowlifes
5:02
that are committing the crimes.
5:03
You know, the thing of it is though, is you're talking about
5:05
politics and it's, and it's crazy.
5:07
And, and you know, during my career when, when, when I was working and
5:10
we, I, I, I ran a unit, we made six to 8,000 arrests per year.
5:14
Very mm-hmm.
5:15
Very proactive unit.
5:16
Uh, Craig knows about it.
5:18
I mean, the unit was even recognized in Washington, D.C. as one of the
5:22
most proactive police units in the country and being proactive
5:25
makes a massive difference.
5:27
Well, once that unit I had left and once that unit kind of got disbanded and
5:33
reorganized, the amount of violent crime and homicides went up exponentially.
5:40
Mm-hmm.
5:41
And you know, when you make those kind of political decisions, who's
5:46
talking about the fact that this mayor, or this governor, or whoever
5:51
it may be that's made those decisions just cost somebody their life.
5:56
How many people are dead now because of making those decisions?
6:00
So the whole National Guard thing for me is like, look at Chicago.
6:05
I, I saw these people interviewed in Chicago.
6:08
They're begging for the National Guard.
6:09
They can't even go and sit in their driveway, in their car and not worried
6:13
about getting jacked or, or, or shot.
6:16
So why not put 'em in there?
6:18
I, I think it's just a liberal democratic fighting point.
6:23
You know, if Trump were to cure cancer.
6:26
He'll be an idiot, you know?
6:28
Yeah.
6:28
And so they're, they're trying to fight him tooth and nail to the
6:33
extent that that ultimately could cost a lot of people's lives.
6:39
Len Sipes: You go through Washington, D.C. uh, and there are sections
6:43
of Washington D.C. where there are bars on every door and every window.
6:49
Um, I've been throughout the country, courtesy of the federal government into
6:52
high crime areas, and I've never been in a high crime area in my entire life
6:57
where somebody said, you know what?
6:58
This is fine.
6:59
We're cool with this, right?
7:01
Uh, you know, um, you know, I, I've never encountered anybody, whether it be
7:07
law enforcement or average citizens or community leaders, say, yeah, we're in a
7:11
high crime area, but we really don't care.
7:13
Um, so you know what we're trying, I look at this as a human rights issue.
7:21
I look at this as a human rights issue and you know, we talk about colleges
7:26
being liberal, places with liberal faults.
7:29
When I went to college, um, I was taught that this is a human rights issue.
7:33
That crime affects school scores, economies, jobs, um, the psychological
7:40
development of younger people.
7:43
That crime is insidious.
7:45
It affects every part of every city in the United States in a very detrimental way.
7:52
So if you want Baltimore to prosper, if you want D.C. to prosper, if you want
7:57
any other city to prosper, you have to be able to control crime and, and, and, and
8:03
unless you're willing to control crime, you were throwing everybody in that area
8:10
under the bus, economically, socially, um, from a jobs point of view, from school
8:16
scores to the psychological development of children, it affects everything.
8:22
So, you know, from my studies, um, before going to the, uh, Department of Justice,
8:30
um, it was, you know, really profound that this is a, this is something that, that
8:37
we all need to work on together to make sure that the average person living in
8:43
the average city in the United States has the right to feel safe in their own homes.
8:50
Go to D.C., look at all the bars.
8:53
On the doors and windows, don't they have a right to feel safe?
8:57
Bill Erfurth: So having said that, and based on your research, why is it the
9:02
Democrats are always fighting and so opposed to law enforcement and forcing
9:08
the law, putting people in jail, and making people safe in this country.
9:14
Len Sipes: I'm gonna try to stay away from politics, um, because
9:17
again, I've worked with progressives all throughout my career.
9:20
Um, I have the independence in mind.
9:22
Whatever it is that I say or write, I'm not quite sure it's Democrats.
9:27
But at the same time, if you take a look at the data in terms of democratic
9:30
opinion versus Republican opinion versus white, black, income, you know, you're
9:36
gonna find variances, um, uh, in, in every survey, depending upon the group.
9:43
Um, so yes, Republicans are probably much harder, uh, and, and much more
9:48
supportive of law enforcement and proactive policing than Democrats.
9:52
Uh, but to say that all Democrats are against proactive policing and all
9:57
Democrats are not supportive of, of making sure that criminals are held accountable,
10:03
i, I, I just feel uncomfortable with that.
10:05
I,
10:06
Bill Erfurth: yeah, fair, fair enough.
10:07
And I'm not saying all of them, it just seems like it's quite a few of them.
10:11
Len Sipes: Yeah.
10:12
There, I mean.
10:14
I've worked with them over the course of years, and I've been in heated arguments
10:19
with them throughout the course of years.
10:22
Um, I just did an article about, there was a, um, survey warning Democrats
10:28
to stop being stupid on crime.
10:31
Um, it's on my website, CrimeInAmerica.net, it's, uh, I
10:35
think it's, uh, last week's article.
10:38
Basically, you have think tank, a democratic think tank that
10:42
is coming along and saying to progressives, you know, you've gotta
10:45
stop saying what you're saying.
10:47
The, you know, you know, criminals aren't clients, they're criminals.
10:51
Um, people returning from prison or inmates coming out of prison,
10:56
they're not returning citizens.
10:58
Um, you know, that you're shooting yourself in the foot, um, by
11:03
the words that you're using.
11:05
Um, so, you know, there are conservative democrats, uh, who probably believe in
11:10
everything that we're talking about now.
11:12
Um, but, uh, progressives, uh, you know, I even the Democratic party
11:18
is taking them to the woodshed.
11:20
There were huge fights during the Biden administration of the really
11:27
far left Progressives trying to change his, um, policies in terms of crime
11:33
and Biden's advisors were furious with these people for trying to
11:37
push um, Joe Biden far to the left.
11:40
Um, Joe Biden, when he was running um, did say per the American Civil Liberties
11:47
Union, uh, that he wanted to release 50% of the prison population, uh.
11:53
Now this is Joe Biden has a long history of being tough on crime.
11:57
So now we have Joe Biden, candidate Biden saying he wants to release
12:02
50% of the prison population.
12:04
Well, 66% of males in the United States in prison are there for violent crimes.
12:10
If you take a look at their criminal history, it's probably closer to 80%.
12:16
If you take a look at, um, federal data on terms of recidivism, violent offenders
12:21
have the highest rate of recidivism.
12:23
So, you know, Biden was actively trying to state as part of a campaign promise
12:30
that he was willing to release hundreds of thousands of violent criminals.
12:35
Now, that to me is absolutely insane.
12:37
But you, you have, um.
12:40
Well, the raging Cajun, who's, what's his name, um, slips my mind at the moment.
12:45
Who was the advisor to Clinton, basically saying defund the police was.
12:49
Dennis Collins: Talking about James, James CarVal.
12:51
Len Sipes: James CarVal.
12:51
Thank you.
12:51
Yeah, CarVal.
12:52
Thank you.
12:52
Yeah.
12:53
Then the three stupidest words in English language were defund the
12:56
police fund the police, and they did so much damage to Democrats.
13:00
They said, we can never get rid of the stench of it.
13:02
Right.
13:02
So within the Democratic party, you, there is a war, literally a war going on
13:10
internally, basically telling progressives you, you really do need to rethink what it
13:17
is you're saying and how you're saying it.
13:19
Dennis Collins: Yeah.
13:19
You know, I wanna track back to something you said, uh, Len,
13:23
I thought was very important.
13:25
You, you made a very interesting statement.
13:27
People have the right to feel safe.
13:30
People have the right to feel safe.
13:31
But here, let me try to blend that into something else you've already said too,
13:36
that because of the un the incorrect or incomplete reporting of crime statistics,
13:43
there is the, the, some government officials are trying to make us feel safe
13:50
by pointing to the erroneous figures.
13:52
So until we actually get the media and you're a media relations expert, okay,
13:57
I'd love your opinion on how do we get the media to start covering the whole picture?
14:03
Len Sipes: The, the well, the media.
14:06
How do I, how do I say this?
14:08
Throughout my career, uh, I've done thousands and thousands of interviews at
14:14
the national level, at the regional level, at the local level, and you had crime
14:19
reporters who made my life miserable, uh, but they knew the criminal justice system.
14:25
They knew crime statistics.
14:28
They knew crime statistics better than I knew crime statistics.
14:31
They invested a lot of their time and a lot of their energy.
14:35
And even though they made my life very difficult at times, um, they
14:40
were fair and they were the ones who stopped papers or, or television
14:47
networks from reporting stupid stuff.
14:51
They're no longer with us.
14:53
The number of reporters who have vanished, um, over the course of the last 10
14:59
years runs into the tons of thousands.
15:03
The really good crime reporters who kept their own network and kept their own
15:08
newspaper in check are no longer there.
15:12
So, you know, the person talking about crime today, will
15:16
tomorrow talk about a fire?
15:18
The, the next day they'll talk about traffic problems.
15:21
Uh, they don't have the background within the criminal justice system.
15:25
So again, I. If I had the response, what the hell is the National
15:31
Crime Victimization Survey?
15:33
If I had a dollar for every time, so a reporter said that to me, um, I wouldn't,
15:40
you know, I could buy another truck.
15:42
I could buy a new truck.
15:44
I mean, it, it's, it's just ridiculous as to how few people know what's going on
15:49
in terms of crime in this country from a statistical and a research point of view.
15:54
Craig Floyd: I have two last questions.
15:56
Um, one is, and it shifts gears a bit, but how does the U.S. uh, crime
16:02
rate compare to other countries?
16:05
I'd like to think that we have the best law enforcement
16:08
force anywhere in the world.
16:10
Um, I have faith in our criminal justice system to an extent, um,
16:16
comparing it to other countries.
16:18
But what are the, what does the data tell us?
16:21
Uh, is the US safer than other countries or are we one of the worst?
16:26
Len Sipes: Okay.
16:26
No, we have Gallup, um, and Gallup basically measures, um, fear of crime,
16:34
perceptions of crime throughout the world.
16:36
And we are not even close to being one of the most dangerous countries in the world.
16:42
Not even close.
16:44
I mean, we've got Central America.
16:45
Um.
16:46
South America, um, South Africa, um, you know, they're
16:52
blowing up in terms of crime.
16:55
Uh, the situation in terms of Mexico and, and the other countries that
16:59
I just mentioned, uh, far outstrip what's going on in the United States.
17:04
Now when it comes down to trust in law enforcement.
17:08
Let me be clear, um, they, they said North American law
17:13
enforcement, which includes Canada.
17:15
That the highest rated, most trusted law enforcement agencies in the country
17:21
are from North America and being we far outstrip in terms of population,
17:27
um, uh, compared to Canada, that means they're talking about the United States.
17:32
The research in terms of the support of law enforcement, it doesn't, regardless
17:38
of your demographics, the vast majority of Americans support law enforcement.
17:42
The vast majority of Americans support law enforcement and one law
17:46
enforcement in their communities.
17:48
There are differences based upon race, income, where you live, blah, blah, blah.
17:52
Um, so law enforcement receives a lot of support from the United States.
17:57
And so summarize, you know, we are the highest rated, uh, law enforcement
18:03
in, in the world as far as I'm concerned, and we're certainly don't
18:06
even, we don't even come close to being the most dangerous country.
18:10
Craig Floyd: That reinforces my view of law enforcement in America.
18:13
The, the best in the world, the best historically in the world.
18:17
Mm-hmm.
18:17
And, um, you know, if we had more cops and if we give them the resources they
18:22
need to do their job, uh, I, I think this country's gonna be in really good shape.
18:27
And that's what we're striving for at Citizens Behind the Badge.
18:30
Give our law enforcement officers the resources they need to
18:34
keep America safe and give them the respect that they deserve.
18:38
The appreciation, the thanks so that they continue to wanna go out and
18:42
risk their lives for our safety.
18:45
Last question I had, um, I, I've been reading this from
18:48
you for a couple years now.
18:50
I think you've reported that there are 120 million porch
18:55
package thefts in this country.
18:57
And, and I know all of us are getting deliveries every day from
19:00
Amazon and, uh, UPS, et cetera.
19:04
Um, that's a staggering statistic.
19:06
Sure is.
19:07
Do I have that right?
19:08
120 million packages stolen every.
19:11
Len Sipes: Well, yeah, but it gets, again, it gets down to crime
19:13
statistics and it would take hours to to, to fully address everything.
19:18
But if you take a look at porch Pirates, if you take a look at the
19:22
FBI's latest data in terms of losses, um, from, um, identity theft, which
19:27
are up 33%, the, the losses are up 33%.
19:32
Uh, if you take a look at a variety of indices um, cargo theft comes
19:37
to mind, shoplifting comes to mind retail theft comes to mind.
19:41
They're all up dramatically yet you take a look at the FBI's violent
19:45
crime report, they're all down.
19:48
So, so, so, again, you, you, you, there's, there's, you know, I could
19:53
go on endlessly about this stuff.
19:55
Um, my, my concern is, is that we have politicians who are using the crime drop.
20:03
And, and by the way, this is something that I've been saying to my friends in,
20:06
in law enforcement and law enforcement organizations, uh, there are people
20:10
out there who are trying to make the case, look you're way down in law
20:14
enforcement, yet crimes are plummeting.
20:17
So cops don't mean anything.
20:20
Um, cops are irrelevant.
20:22
And I've been trying to say we need to be very proactive on the part of
20:28
the organizations that represent law enforcement to make sure that they
20:31
understand the statistics, uh, the point that you're trying to make it's
20:35
completely irrelevant um, based upon a wide variety of data, but yet that's
20:41
the point that they're trying to make.
20:42
So not only is this an attack on crime statistics, it's it's an attack
20:47
on law enforcement across the board.
20:49
That's why I go back constantly to the National Academy of Sciences report.
20:54
Um, basically saying it's the only modality we have, um, in terms of
20:59
reducing crime in the United States.
21:01
And so the data is with me, but nobody seems to understand the data.
21:06
Dennis Collins: The data's got to be out there for it to
21:07
have an effect, doesn't it?
21:09
You, you had some, uh, in closing, I wanna ask you a couple questions.
21:13
Uh, uh, number one, CrimeInAmerica.net, that is how we find you, right, Len?
21:19
Len Sipes: Yes.
21:19
Crime in america.net.
21:20
Dennis Collins: And if somebody wants to reach out and get in touch with you Uh,
21:24
they can get it through that website.
21:25
Len Sipes: They can get My email address is on the, the about page on my website.
21:32
Dennis Collins: Okay.
21:32
So the about page will bring you to Len.
21:35
Right.
21:35
I wanna ask you about, you said there are some very clear statistics about
21:41
uh, what is it when crime goes down?
21:44
It's pro the proactivity of the police.
21:48
Did I hear you say that right?
21:49
Len Sipes: Yeah.
21:50
I mean, you know, so, so you have the mayors of Chicago and
21:55
Baltimore basically, uh, dismissing the law enforcement activities.
21:58
They're basically saying social programs and violence interrupters.
22:02
There's no data whatsoever to support that.
22:05
Now that's, I'm not saying don't do violence interrupters, of course, I'm
22:08
not saying don't do social programs.
22:10
There's no data on it.
22:11
I'm simply saying that at the moment, in terms of good, solid research, it's been
22:15
replicated, um, and put into other cities, um, to prove it, that doesn't exist.
22:23
Dennis Collins: And so, but there are stats on the other side
22:26
saying that proactive police is the reason when crime is reduced,
22:31
there are stats for that, correct?
22:33
Len Sipes: Yes.
22:33
Um, but you know, now the authors will basically say that it, it, it reduces
22:39
crime we're not quite sure how much by how much that becomes the caveat.
22:45
Dennis Collins: But big picture, it reduces crime.
22:47
Len Sipes: Yeah.
22:48
And, and it's the only modality that we have at the moment.
22:52
That says it reduces crime.
22:54
That's.
22:54
Bill Erfurth: Well, it isn't it almost common sense, like if you're a toddler, if
22:58
you're a child and you know that if you do something, you're going to get disciplined
23:02
for it, eventually you stop doing it.
23:04
Yes.
23:04
I mean, normally, uh, if you don't get caught, you just keep doing it.
23:09
It's kind of like you're empowered to continue to do that, that
23:12
that starts from childhood.
23:14
If you're a criminal, if you're some low life scumbag and you're out
23:18
there doing your thing and nobody's ever arresting you, or there's no
23:21
proactive activity and you're not getting locked up, you're empowered.
23:25
You just keep doing it and doing it and doing it.
23:29
Len Sipes: It, it's, it's, you take it a look at recidivism,
23:32
statistics, they're through the roof.
23:34
Over the course of a 10 year period, I'm, I'm now going to guess it's
23:39
about 85% coming back to the criminal justice system through an arrest
23:42
and it's about 60% re-incarcerated.
23:45
Um, these are people coming out of the prison system.
23:48
The parole and probation statistics are rather old, but it's still
23:51
around 40% for in terms of parole and probation, higher, depending upon
23:56
the other things that you look at.
23:57
We have a problem of non accountability.
24:01
Um, you know, the, the, the Department of Justice documents all this stuff
24:05
about millions of crimes being committed by people who have gone
24:10
to prison, millions of crimes.
24:13
Um, this stuff is well documented again by the Bureau of Justice Statistics.
24:18
Um, so we have a problem.
24:20
We have a problem in terms of making sure that people are held uh, accountable.
24:26
Yes.
24:26
Uh, in terms of the tragic stabbing of, of the, a lady, a young lady from
24:30
Ukraine, that's just another example, um, of, of the system out of hand.
24:37
Where there are 15 arrests and I, and I think it was, uh, Paul, who, uh,
24:41
suggested that, uh, you know, it's not 15, it's just the 15 he's been called for.
24:47
Dennis Collins: That's right.
24:48
Yeah.
24:48
Len Sipes, you have been very, very generous, uh, with your time and
24:52
most importantly, your expertise.
24:55
Uh, we have not had a guest like you on this podcast.
24:58
We should do this more often.
25:00
Len Sipes: Oh, I, I'd love to do it.
25:02
Dennis Collins: This is really at the heart of the problem.
25:04
I think it, it's the way the information is being uh, managed the way it's being
25:10
disseminated and unfortunately, just like we do in Heroes Behind the Badge and
25:15
Citizens Behind the Badge, it's incorrect and we're here to help correct that.
25:19
And you are a big part of that today.
25:21
Thank you.
25:21
Len Sipes: We need to support law enforcement.
25:23
We need to understand that the overwhelming majority of the men
25:28
and the women in law enforcement are decent human beings who just want to
25:32
go home at the end of their shift.
25:34
Absolutely.
25:36
And, and, and until we come to that conclusion, until we understand that our
25:41
support of law enforcement is absolutely crucial, and I would not be saying this
25:45
if I didn't believe it, um, it, it's the average American agrees with me in terms
25:53
of how they feel about law enforcement.
25:55
Law enforcement themselves, the individual police officers need to
25:58
understand that the average person in this country is staunchly behind them.
26:04
Yeah, so there are detractors.
26:06
The detractors will always be there always, but law enforcement
26:10
is supported and it's, they're supported for a good reason.
26:14
Dennis Collins: Which is a good segue to our audience,
26:17
to our listeners and viewers.
26:19
A reminder that the Heroes Behind the Badge podcast that you just
26:23
listened to with Len Sipes is brought to you by Citizens Behind the Badge.
26:28
Dot org.
26:30
Dot org.
26:31
You can reach us at CitizensBehindTheBadge.org.
26:34
If you like this podcast, can I ask you a favor?
26:38
If you like something that Len said, and boy he gave us a lot to
26:41
like hit subscribe, hit follow, hit like, and then you'll be part of the
26:49
family and you'll get to know first when new episodes release, and we
26:53
already are planning new episodes.
26:56
Even, I know as good as this is, we're gonna try to get somebody as good
27:00
or better than Len on here for you.
27:02
So again, we're signing off for this edition of Heroes Behind the Badge on
27:08
behalf of uh, Billy Erfurth and Craig Floyd, this is Dennis Collins saying
27:13
we'll see you next time and thanks, Len.
27:16
Len Sipes: My pleasure.