Latest / The Hissing Feline / Cats and cancer: A visit with veterinarian and board-certified veterinary oncologist Dr. Karen Oberthaler about types of feline cancers and their treatment

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Cats and cancer: A visit with veterinarian and board-certified veterinary oncologist Dr. Karen Oberthaler about types of feline cancers and their treatment · The Hissing Feline

• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: Family, friends, feel different kinds of cancers can also affect our four-footed family members.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: Joining me on today's podcast to talk about feline cancer treatment is Dr.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: Karen Overthaler, veterinarian and board-certified veterinary oncologist.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: He is co-founder of Treatline Veterinary Cancer Center in both Boulder and Eagle, Colorado.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: Dr.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: Oberthaler, thank you very much for visiting with me today about a crucial topic for cat owners.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, thanks so much for having me.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things that I wondered about is are there typical ages that cats can get cancer?
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um there are.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_03: So you usually it's the older set.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh some other things I read about is older cats can have different types of ailments.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: I guess it's just like humans, as they as they age, they seem to be more susceptible to these types of things.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_03: And what's I think I get this question all the time, like why are we seeing so much more cancer in cats these days?
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_03: And and I think um there probably isn't any more cancer in cats and there always have been, but I I know our cats are living longer um these days with better health care.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, people just take so much better care of their pets these days than they did decades ago.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_03: And I think we're getting really sophisticated in veterinary medicine about like picking things up and and actually diagnosing things.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_03: Um so many more tests are less invasive and and people can do them more than you know, decades ago.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_03: Like when I was a kid, um and I don't want to age myself, but it was decades ago.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_03: I think we just didn't look that hard for it and probably thought like a lot of cats kind of succumbed to old age.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I think these days like we're we're finding cancer, and we're finding it at earlier stages where we can actually treat it and and things.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: We had a cat that lived to be almost 21.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: She never had Oh my god.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, she didn't have can that's a really old cat.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: She didn't she didn't have any, she didn't have cancer, but she did have kidney issues, which is something that we're gonna talk about on this podcast down the road.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: But it seems like there were things that just happened.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh she had about 15, 12 or 15, if you started evidence doing these types of things.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: What what types of uh feline cancer are out there?
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: I know it's not that's not just like one answer, like there's one type of cancer.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: I know there is multiple types that can affect cats.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, it's it's funny.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_03: I honestly, when I meet people that don't know that there are pet oncologists or like veterinarians that only specialize in cancer, one of the first questions people ask me is like, oh, like do cats even get cancer?
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_03: And yes, of course they do, but you're also finding they they get a lot of the same cancer.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_03: Like there is one cancer we see uh so much more than the others, and that is lymphoma, like feline lymphoma, number one um most common cancer out there that kitties get.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_03: And and there's a couple of words for it.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_03: There's lymphoma, it used to be called lymphosarcoma, it's the same cancer, but it's it's a cancer of white blood cells, and it it is super common, and um and there's a lot of different forms of it, um, but it all-encompassing its lymphoma by by far is the most common cancer.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: Now I know cats can have uh issues with their skin, it gets itchy and so forth.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, humans can have uh those types of issues too when it comes to cancer.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: Do you find that in also happening in cats?
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_03: Rarely.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_03: You know, with cats, one one, they are so good at hiding their disease or their issues until things kind of are a little bit more advanced.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_03: Like sometimes with, I don't know, let's say dogs, like it can be a little bit more obvious that something is going on.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_03: Like cancer cats are a little more subtle in the way they show signs of illness.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_03: So it could be something as simple as like changing behavior, like you know, I don't know, cats are creatures of habit.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_03: So like usually there's a a place they like to lay, a place they like to sleep, a uh a behavior that they do on a pattern.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_03: And if you all of a sudden you start seeing them kind of change their pattern or become relaxing in a different area when they always used to go to the same spot, like little subtle things like are just kind of flags to tell you, like, I wonder if everything is okay, you know.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_03: And I think skin stuff is a little less common in the in the way that leads to a diagnosis of cancer.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_03: I think what's more common is like change in the weight or um change in their eating or change in their bathroom habits, like for litter box habits, like um constipation, diarrhea, like those signs I think are a little bit more linked to kind of generalized disease and in older kitties um cancer.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um there are some though that um are are related to skin issues, like you know, we have some weird cancers that you can see in cats where you know there's one where all the skin falls sorry, all the hair falls out on the belly, and they have this really glossy, smooth abdomen um with no fur.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_03: And um, and that is a weird link to a certain type of pancreatic cancer in cats.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, that is super rare.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um so luckily we don't see too much like if your cat's itchy, it's probably, I don't know, fleas or action.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um, less so to be something like life-threatening.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: I know that uh cats can have kidney problems.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: I was just mentioning that with our with our old cat.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: And uh do you do you find cancers in, let's say, kidney uh anything that has to do with uh with that system?
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um not frequently.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, obviously there are uh kidney cancers.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um what I what I see all the time, I mean you just alluded to it, is kidney issues in older cats.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_03: You know, the average age of getting cancer is, you know, in the um double digits, the early double digits, let's just call it like 11, 12.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_03: You had the the outlier and having a cat live into the 20s and and and probably having really healthy kidneys all through the teens, like that is so rare.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, she did so, so common to have kidney disease in a cat.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_03: And um, so I think what I usually see is cancer unrelated to the kidneys, and then we're kind of trying to deal with the cancer, make sure cats feel as good as they possibly can and and living with the cancer, and then we're also watching the kidneys to just hope that they hold on as long as possible because I would say kidney disease is so much more common than cancer in cats.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, our our cat Sadie, uh, we got her as a feral kitten.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: She was just honory, and I I'm I'm always contending that uh the honorier they are, the longer they're gonna live.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so that was her and she was.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god, no, that's honory up to the end.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's yeah.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_03: It's proven.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_03: But like ask any veterinarian, that is a fact.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_03: And um, and we know, especially with cancer care, like it's like the fighters, you know, the ones that if you um you know pick your cat up from the vet, and they're like, they were so brave today.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_03: Like we have so many euphemisms, the really tough ones.
• 8:27
  unknown: Right.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_03: They give us the hardest time.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_03: They they are the ones who will um outlive any other cat.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_03: And um, I think there's something to that.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_03: You know, the the ones who fight, yeah, that's a thing.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's good to know that I'm not too far off with my analysis.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not even a veterinarian like you are, so uh yeah.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_04: It is true.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: So where are cancers most likely to appear?
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: Are there specific areas you've you've talked about some of those, but um where are cancers most likely to appear in cats?
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_03: By far and away, like the intestinal tract is the number one site of cancer in cats.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_03: And and like I referenced before, I mean, the number one cancer we see is feline lymphoma, and it is so often found in the intestinal tract.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and what I mean by that is like um, you know, down the the small intestines, the stomach, the colon, um, cats will get a form of cancer which affects their essentially their digestion, you know, where sometimes they can get really skinny, um, they don't process food well, they'll have like abdominal cramping or kind of alternate between diarrhea and constipation.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_03: Like it's all uh GI stuff um is the most commonplace that we we see cancer in cats.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: Is is there a specific cause for that uh that would bring about those cancers in that part of the cat?
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_03: For the most part, it's just older age and kind of bad luck.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_03: I you know, there are some things, and I should probably bring them up because hopefully can save some some lives.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um we know that secondhand um tobacco exposure is a predisposing factor for feline gastrointestinal lymphoma.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_03: Like we know that it has been proven.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_03: So while that's not the most common, I mean, I see cats with GI lymphoma quite frequently, and most of them it's not because they live in a house with smokers, but we do know that that is one predisposing factor um that is preventable.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but for the most part, it is um it's older age and it's bad luck, honestly.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um sometimes it's just inevitable.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_03: It's the cats that are the best taken care of um with the you know most wonderful upbringing, they just get this.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: When when you're going to diagnose uh cancer, do you you have specific types of methods?
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: How how would you know to do those tests?
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think that would be a question that my listeners might have if they say, Well, I'm not sure if my cat might have some type of ailment.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: How do you go about diagnosing those types of things, especially the cancers?
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, um, it's I mean it's pretty basic, and I'll be honest, I don't I don't diagnose a lot of cancer because the way it works in veterinizing a cancer center, a lot of times, you know, cats are coming to me and they've already had it diagnosed.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_03: But the way it is diagnosed is, you know, there's a either it's a concern, like you notice, hey, my cat seems to be losing weight or is kind of changing the behavior and I'm worried, or you know, they come in for annual exams.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_03: And I should actually say, like, it is amazing to me how many cats don't come in for annual exams at the vet.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um, almost from like the midpoint of their life, you know, a lot of cats get their kitten vaccines and then kind of don't show up again until there's a problem.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but there's a lot of things that we can find so much earlier if you kind of keep on that schedule of coming in, you know, once a year when you get the reminder.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_03: But I think the the first thing that we do as vets is a physical exam.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_03: And and we rely still so heavily on a physical exam, um, just basic, you know, old-fashioned medicine of like feeling, feeling the body structure, feeling for symmetry, feeling for lumps and bumps.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_03: We feel lymph nodes and listen to the heart and lungs.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_03: But you know, when it comes to cancer, we're also really doing a nice thorough abdominal palpation.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_03: And I think more so than in a in a big dog, um, in a cat, you can really feel you can feel stuff.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_03: I can feel the kidneys, I can feel certain size, I can feel the spleen, I can feel the intestinal tract, I can feel if they're constipated.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_03: And and so you can feel if there's a mass in there.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_03: So that's that's the first thing, it's just a physical exam.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_03: And then the second thing that we do is anytime a cat is sick, and as you said, we've got to look at the kidneys.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_03: And so we run just basic blood work, and um, and that's always gonna be kind of the same panel, which is it's called a complete blood count, which looks at red cells, white cells, and platelets, and then a chemistry panel, which is gonna look at kidney values, electrolytes, and liver values.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's kind of the next step, and and if it's normal, if all that's normal, and there's still something wrong, then the next step is we we do imaging.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_03: So you're actually like looking at pictures, and the most important thing for cats is an abdominal ultrasound, which you can do usually, you know, they're awake for it.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_03: We shave the fur off the belly, and they like lie on their back, and usually a really comfy kind of foam bed, and uh and a veterinarian looks around with a ultrasound probe and kind of like a sonogram, you know, um, and looks at the intestinal tract and looks at the lymph nodes in the belly, and and so that that is honestly one of the first steps we're doing when we're diagnosing cancer.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_03: But you kind of go through those basic steps like physical exam, regular blood work, because you always have to look at the kidneys, and then if that's normal, then we then we start looking for like masses or thickenings or or weird stuff like that.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's the importance of cat owners having their annual checkups for their animals, because uh because that was that would be when uh the the veterinarian might find something at least suspicious that uh might they might want to uh do some further testing on.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, a hundred percent.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_03: And it's I mean, and we know that as vets, we know this, like cancer is more treatable, curable when you find it early, and you're you find it early when you're kind of going in for wellness stuff, or or just to check out something that you think is probably just a false alarm.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um, that that's usually the best time to find something.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_03: And honestly, you we can often cure things when you find them early.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_03: I just know uh just from talking to a lot of my the families that come and see me and just hearing the histories of like how did you find this cancer, your cat, like so often it um it was something was happening and they ended up at the ER and and I, you know, cat hadn't been into the vet in years because they're like, well, you know, why should we?
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_03: It lives in the home and never goes outside.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_03: And and I think there is value in kind of going in once a year and just making sure everything's okay.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: I know that we're careful with our cats.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: If there's something we detect or see their mannerisms or something, we make a vet appointment.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, uh, it may be extra precaution on our part, but they're you know, we're supposed to take care of our animals.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that's a really good part of that.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: You're listening to the Hissing Feline podcast.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Clark Greer.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: Today's guest is board certified veterinary oncologist, Dr.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: Karen Overthaler.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: We'll be back in a minute to discuss prequest for feline.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_02: I have no idea how world I've got to get.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: You're listening to the Histing Feline Podcast.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Clark Greer.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: My guest today is Dr.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: Karen Overthaler, veterinarian, fourth certified veterinary oncologist, and co-founder of Treatline Veterinary Cancer Center in both Boulder and Eagle, Colorado.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: In the first segment of the program, we talked about types of feline cancer and their diagnosis.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: Dr.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: Oberthaler, would you talk a bit about treatments of feline cancer?
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I'm happy to.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_03: And in treatment of cancer is kind of like the bulk of what I do as a veterinary oncologist.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, you you can see an oncologist and kind of just go in to talk about a cancer diagnosis, find out how widespread it is or what to expect, and kind of how to manage things moving forward, but probably the bulk of what I do on a day-to-day basis is um is cancer treatments.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_03: And honestly, I'm a medical oncologist.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um there's actually three types of veterinary oncologists out there.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um there's medical, which is me, and I I do a lot of um medications, you know, drugs for cancer.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_03: Um, there's surgical oncologists, um, they're the ones, you know, specialize in um kind of intricate surgeries to remove tumors, and then there's actually radiation oncologists, smaller group of veterinarians who specialize in um using you know beams of radiation to kind of treat very localized cancer.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_03: But for me as a medical oncologist, um we use a lot of chemotherapy um in the treatment of cancer, and you know, the number one cancer we see in cats, which is feline lymphoma, um, that is a cancer of white blood cells.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_03: And as most people know, white blood cells are, you know, there's cells in the body that kind of travel around.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_03: And so right away we think of that as like a systemic cancer, it's not the kind of thing that will only stay in one place.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_03: And so the best way to treat cancers that are systemic is with medications, and for the most part, those medications it's it's chemotherapy.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_03: So a a lot of what I do day to day is I give uh chemotherapy to animals.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: So it sounds a lot like human cancer treatments.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh is there a relationship?
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: Are you doing pretty much the same thing that someone might experience or a friend or relative might experience going through cancer treatments?
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, there's an overlap, but but the philosophy is so different.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_03: Like I I think the big sections of treatment are this the same, you know, chemotherapy, surgery, radiation.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, but that's where the similarities stop because our whole philosophy of how we would treat our pets is is palliative.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_03: Like it's one of palliation.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_03: Like, how can we make them feel better?
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_03: If if they feel good, how can we help them live longer?
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_03: But like the idea um of the payoff of now for later, which I mean I I get it in human oncology, like we will do what we can to to cure our family members, and and people kind of go into it understanding like it might be hard going through the therapy, but you're trying to cure, you know, we want to cure them.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_03: In pets, um, we don't cure a lot of cancers um because we're not willing to sacrifice like the day-to-day we like you know, I strongly believe that that cats live in the here and the now, you know, they live in the present.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_03: They have no idea of the concept of, you know, the payoff of living better later.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_03: And so if there's something that we can do that will either make them feel better or you know, help them kind of live a long great life, then we'll do it.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_03: But I think that's why we're pretty limited in in vet veterinary cancer care at which cancers we can treat.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but there's a few, um, and feline lymphoma is one of them, that you can give these like teeny, teeny doses of chemo, and it is enough to kill the cancer cells and put cats in a remission, but not so high doses that they actually feel sick from the drug.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_03: And so there's this kind of like sweet spot where you can treat something and then they don't get you know chemotherapy toxicity.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_03: And um I mean the trade-off is though, yeah, we're not getting we're not getting cures in in many cats, like maybe it's something that we treat successfully for years in some cases, and then it comes back.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_03: But um we're not, at least I'm not, willing to have them feel poorly, just to have them feel longer.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_03: And I I think that's a misconception about you know, veterinary cancer care, and so many people have you know, they have their own experiences and and some of them are uh quite devastating what you know family members have been through, and and so that's where.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: you know veterinary medicine in our lane is so different because um we just we just want to make them feel okay.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_03: We don't want to make them feel sick from what we do.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know they just don't they don't consent to it and um so it's something we take pretty seriously right so that's why palliative care is important if you look at a cat's quality of life it it at least it helps to ease some of those uh discomforts that the cat would feel because of their illness then totally and like it could be something like I don't know like maybe the cancer we found we found it because a cat was vomiting and so maybe that cancer causes vomiting.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_03: Like we can if we treat the cancer then it makes the vomiting go away and then they're kind of happy for a while as long as that you know lasts whether that's for curing it or kind of just palliating that.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_03: But it it's all about just making them feel better, you know?
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: This episode about feline cancers has been really informative and I think it's an important issue for cat owners because they're not really sure what to do or how to deal with situations.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: So this has been uh really helpful doctor.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: What is the first step and I'm guessing uh it's going to be seeing a vet should cat owners take if they have concern about their animal's health and maybe they've pet they've petted the cat and feels something that just doesn't seem right I'm I'm guessing seeing they're a local veterinarian.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah I'm that you're right.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_03: It is I mean that is the best thing to do is find a veterinarian um if you don't have one or if if you have one um pay them a visit because there's so much we can we can do now that's um not invasive and and we can find things earlier.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_03: And maybe it's a false alarm you know like uh I've seen lots of false alarms in my in my career.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_03: It's not always a bad illness.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes it's just like I don't know like a little wound that can be fixed that we didn't even know was there.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah the first step is is is going to a family veterinarian and having something checked out.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: Many thanks to my guest Dr.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: Karen Oberthaler for sharing her expertise with listeners.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: Dr.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: Oberthaler is a veterinarian board certified veterinary oncologist and co-founder of Treeline Veterinary Cancer Center in both Boulder and Eagle Colorado.
• 24:27
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• 24:34
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• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: The podcast's email address is thehissingfeeline at Durachocatmedia.com Derecho is spelled D-R E C H O.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: Join me for the next episode of the Hissing Feline to hear from the owner of Iowa's first cat cafe.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: Until then remember to keep worried content on the Hissing Feline podcast is for information and entertainment purposes only and it's not intended to provide medical veterinary or legal advice.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: Please consult your veterinarian and local and state authorities before dealing with feral and straight cats.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: Opinions expressed are those of the hosts and guests and not necessarily those of Duracho Cat Media LLC references to products or services do not imply an endorsement.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: The Histing Feline podcast is a production of Duracho Cat Media LLC and has been blessed by our rescue cats, Bridget and Maddie.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: All content is used with permission or under fair use