Latest / The Pluralist Podcast - with Orly Erez-Likhovski and Rabbi Josh Weinberg / Controversy & Conflict in One Kippah: A Conversation with Dr. Alex Sinclair
Transcript
- Josh Weinberg: You know, ⁓ Alex, it feels like you are having a moment now. ⁓ And like, listen, let's, was it Churchill or Abba Eben who said, don't let a good crisis go to waste? Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Alex Sinclair: ⁓ my god, that's a good way of putting it. I'm having a moment. It's a little crazy. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, so. Everybody's ready? Okay, wonderful. So let's do it. Welcome back to the Pluralist from both sides of the ocean. Today, we're going to talk to educator and author Dr. Alex Sinclair. Last week, Alex was detained for a kippah with an Israeli and Palestinian flag woven into it, ⁓ after which his kippah was returned him without the Palestinian flag that was cut out. An act that in any other place in the world, Josh Weinberg: Ken. Orly Erez Likhovski: would have been called anti-Semitic. The story went viral and we want to talk today to Alex about the bigger picture, what it means for those of us who love and care deeply about Israel and are struggling with the reality of how it's behaving right now. Josh Weinberg: Alex, so glad you're able to join us. we wanted to have a chance to, ⁓ to really talk to you, but let's just, you know, take a step back and to say that Alex Sinclair, you are a Jewish educator and writer based at the Hebrew university of Jerusalem, where you teach in the international MA program in Jewish education, which I'm also a graduate of. And you have spent years working with leading Jewish institutions in Israel and around the world, focusing on Israel diaspora relations and liberal Zionism. You Alex are the author of Loving the Real Israel, which explores how we engage honestly with the realities of Israeli society and two other novels. And I'm told that a sequel is coming soon, so stay tuned. I don't know if Netflix has picked up ⁓ that book yet to make it into a movie, but maybe now it will. of course you live in Modiin, ⁓ I'm told sometimes also with your adult children. Orly Erez Likhovski: You Josh Weinberg: ⁓ Alex, really a pleasure. Thank you for making time to be with us today as we're recording. Welcome. Alex Sinclair: It's my absolute pleasure. really grateful for the invitation to have a chat with you guys, with Orly and Josh. Josh, you and I go back sometime and I've always really valued your colleagueship your counsel and really ⁓ what doing and your work is really, important. So Kolakavod, good for you. ⁓ Josh Weinberg: Well, there's no accounting for bad taste, but that's okay. And Alex, before we get into the incident of the moment, I think, can you just give us a little bit of your background? When did you come on Aliyah? What's your home like in terms of where did you come from? And what has informed your worldview or your hashkafah, as we like to say, as it is today? Orly Erez Likhovski: You Alex Sinclair: Sure, I grew up in London, England, to a kind of a pretty, I guess, we say, ordinary average Jewish English family, not especially religious, very sort of Zionist in a kind of, you know, in an English way, meaning we would go to Israel on vacation. As a kid, I was in Israel on vacation, you know, I guess two, three times. And my parents were very involved in, and still are in, of... kinds of charity stuff, raising money for Israel, etc. Not especially religious, know, twice a year, shul goers, etc. And I, you know, was, as I got older, I came back and forth to Israel more more times when I was a teenager or a student. this was the days before birthright, you know, I was on, you know, as a teenager on a kind of birthright style tour, I guess, and then came back in for more in-depth stuff, spent a year here studying. And then in 97, I came here to do my doctorate at Hebrew University in Jewish education. And then I met my wife who is Israeli. She was born here. She's the daughter of Olim, people who emigrated to Israel from her mother's from America, father's from Canada. So we got married and one of the, know, I was getting funding for my doctorate. One of the conditions for the funding was that after my doctorate, would go and work abroad in the diaspora for five years. So one of the conditions of us getting married was that I had to make Aliyah to promise her that we were gonna come back after, at some point after being in America. So I moved to America, I lived in New Jersey, taught at JTS between 2001, 2007, the end of 2001 and 2007. We moved back to Israel in 2007 to Maldi'in, where as you say I live and I love. Josh Weinberg: Mmm. Alex Sinclair: Yeah, that's me. Orly Erez Likhovski: That's about it. your education. Yeah, yeah. Josh Weinberg: And your wife is also involved in liberal Jewish education, right, with the TALI system and... Alex Sinclair: Yeah, wife is also involved in the liberal Jewish educational world. As have been saying to our kids since they were age zero, don't you dare go into Jewish education. We want you to become lawyers and ⁓ and ⁓ a job. ⁓ Josh Weinberg: Go and make an honest living exactly, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Now, it's super ⁓ getting into the details of the incident, which obviously we want you to recount, I do want to ask you to share with us and our listeners what prompted you to actually begin wearing a kippah with an Israeli and Palestinian flag. And ⁓ should say that I read your op-ed and you describe it so beautifully that I really want you to share with us the story. Alex Sinclair: Exactly, exactly, exactly. Thank Okay. So, yeah, so I did write about this online and I say it's I'll talk about it now and it is there in HaAretz You know, it's behind the paywall. ⁓ think that and this is a totally separate conversation for a separate podcast or not for your podcast. I think that one of the most important things that people can do today to Tikkun Olam to repair the world is to subscribe to a quality newspaper, whether that is in America or in Israel. ⁓ deeply worried about what's going on in terms of ⁓ whole way people get media So I think that subscribing to Haaretz is a good thing, people should do it, and I don't get any percentage them or anything, but anyway. ⁓ Josh Weinberg: No royalties. And we can put the article in the notes of the podcast. Yeah. Alex Sinclair: Oh, great, great, great, great. As I said, I grew up not wearing a kippah and not even would be something that, know, wouldn't even have dreamed of doing. And I started to get more serious about my Judaism in my, when I was a student in my, you know, was 18, 19, 20, 21, that kind of age. then, like I said, was back and forth to Israel on various programmes. And at some point I decided I wanted to start wearing a kippah. But wearing a kippah, Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Alex Sinclair: was always, even from the very beginning, a complicated decision for me in Israel. And I'll tell you a story here that is not in the Haaretz article, ⁓ is that when I was in Israel in that 95-96 year, which was when Rabin was assassinated in November 1995. ⁓ And I walking around the streets with... I can't remember days or a few weeks two or three after the assassination with a kippah on and I had a it was a shalom Shalom Achshav or a peace now badge or shalom Haver it was some kind of peace slogan that I don't remember exactly what it was it some kind of peace peace badge or a pin right a badge that I was wearing them ⁓ know on my t-shirt and some somebody stopped me and they said there's what are you doing you can't have wear both of those things there's a contradiction between the kippah and the badge those two things don't go together Orly Erez Likhovski: Shalom, Shalom, Chavar or something, Chavar, yeah. Both. Josh Weinberg: you Alex Sinclair: So even then at the very beginning, I'm like, look, I want to wear a kippah. I love wearing a kippah. And I wrote in the HaAretz article a little bit about what that, what it does mean to kind of give me a sense that, you know, I think there's something powerful about wearing a kippah. There's always a non-zero teeny tiny part of you which is conscious of it. And non-zero teeny tiny part of you is always saying to you, try to be a better person, try to think about what it means to be a Jew, try to think about what it means. I like I like what it does to me kind of spiritually and ethically and all that kinds of, but. walking around Israel with the Epum means that people associate you with a particular political and religious camp. And that religious and political camp is very far from who I really am inside me. Politically, obviously, you know, makes sense, you know, the fact that it's kind of clear already from the beginning of this conversation, you know, that I lean left politically, I still define myself as a Zionist, as a liberal Zionist, I'm sure we'll talk more about what means. But I certainly lean left politically. And that's not true for most, with some exceptions, but for most. people who walk around Israel with a kippah on. And also religiously, look, I'm not orthodox. I'm observant. I'm pretty frum I guess in certain ways, I keep Shabbat, keep Kashrut. I do a whole bunch of things which sort of, you know, are similar to what other orthodox people do. But my mindset and my theology and my kind of who I'm very egalitarian, I belong to an egalitarian synagogue where men and women sit together and women read torah and, you your viewers know that. I don't have to go into details about what it means to be a egalitarian, but in Israel you do. so people associate you with... So I was walking around with a kippah and feeling kind of really very ambivalent about it. Yeah. Josh Weinberg: And Alex, maybe just one second, just for our listeners, we can just give a point of reference here that in Israel, people can be associated in political and social camps by their head covering. And it's very, very identifiable to the eye. ⁓ Some may a sea of black hats and think that they're all the same when the trained will be able to differentiate between different Hasidic courts and different ⁓ non-Hasidic courts. ⁓ Alex Sinclair: Yeah. Josh Weinberg: who wears a knitted kippah versus a black velvet kippah. And that's a seminar course that we could do for one thing, but just to make sure our listeners are aware of your point. ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, I want to say that I think it goes deeper than that. It is much more extensive in the sense that I think the tragedy of Israel is that we know that human rights have become associated with the left and Judaism have become associated with racism and extremism and homophobia and misogynism. And this is really the tragedy. I think this is part of what we at Reform Judaism and other liberal Alex Sinclair: Yeah, yeah. Yeah? Yeah? Josh Weinberg: Yes, sir. Orly Erez Likhovski: spaces are trying to change, right? So to reclaim Judaism and to definitely offer Israelis a way where you can be both a liberal and a Jew. And it really goes right to what you're referring to, right? That you don't have to choose, that you actually can wear a kippah and assert your Judaism without meaning you're against, you know, you're like for racism or something. Yeah. Alex Sinclair: Yeah, yeah, I think that's exactly right. Yeah, I think that's exactly right. It's trying, it was me trying to reclaim my liberal Judaism as a kippah wearer. think that's, so that's really what it was. So that's why I came out, you know, I had all kinds of other ideas, but I came up to do, I'll have a kippah with both flags on and that's my way of saying, I'm wearing a kippah and I'm something, I'm not quote unquote, like you other kippah wearer over there. Josh Weinberg: Yes, sir. Alex Sinclair: I'm a liberal and I believe that Palestinian nationalism also a thing and that the Palestinian people also have a right to national self-determination and a legitimate historical connection to this land and all of that kind of stuff. And it's hard to do that. ⁓ know, in HaAretz article, I have this line that it's hard for a piece of cloth to convey all of that, you know, as Josh said, seminar papers worth of kind of philosophical and theological kind of struggling. But I tried and it was a way that I was able to kind of reclaim that, that custom, that Jewish custom for myself in a way that made it feel good for me and made me feel that I was able to as a kind of authentic, as an authentic self understanding. I'm not naive. And I understand that that flag before October the seventh also, and certainly after October the seventh is not an easy flag for some people to see. And, know, we can talk about that, but you know, It was a, this was a for me to express my Jewish identity. Yeah. ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: And up until this incident, I'm sure you have gotten a lot of responses before, right? Because you've been wearing this for a long time. So could you share with us just a few of the responses? of them were as extreme as the one you experienced last week, but still, yeah, yeah. Alex Sinclair: Yeah. Right. Josh Weinberg: Yes, yeah. And wait, can you just say also like, where did you get that? Did you get this from like the kippa man on Ben Yehuda Street or like, or did you like have it custom made or like, you know, are there like, Benot Ulpana sitting there, you know, knitting that kippa for you or like, know, like. Alex Sinclair: Yeah, sure. Yeah, I know, that's what everyone wants to know, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Hahaha! Alex Sinclair: Yeah, it's not exactly an item you buy off the shelf in the usual kippah store. I went to a well-known kippah store in downtown Jerusalem. And this is many, many, many years ago. I can't remember if I printed out or I draw it out on a piece of paper. And I said to him, here, this is a little bit of a strange request. Will you do this for me? And he looked at it and he looked at me and he said, well, if you pay me for it, I'll do it for you. So I paid to get it custom made. I actually went back to him twice. I think the first time around I got two made one and a spare. They both got lost over the years. One blew away and the wind once, one I don't even know what happened to it. And then I went back to him again several years later and I said, remember me? you do me another one? And so he did me another one. Now I know. I haven't to get to Jerusalem. been such a crazy week since this happened. Next week, hopefully one day I'll get to Jerusalem ⁓ and go and... knock on his door, know, the shop in see if he will make another one. don't know if he will now joking, you know, joking apart. He doesn't want demonstrations outside his shop. That's why I haven't really been saying the name of his shop because I don't, I don't want to create, you know, cause people to be demonstrating outside of his shop. Oh, you made a kippah for that, you know, whatever. So yeah, so I, so I, so that's, that's how I got it made. But right now I've got, I've had so many like offers of people saying, I'll make you a new one and I'll, know, and like, people, so it is kind of really heartwarming that people. Orly Erez Likhovski: Of course. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: course. Yeah. Alex Sinclair: who know how to keep up having volunteering to make me a new one. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, and you mentioned that before it was sort of a cause for conversation, right, with people who don't agree with you once they saw it. Alex Sinclair: Yeah, that's right. So that was the question you asked already. been, I've had some amazing conversations over the years ⁓ of this kippah, not this one. I'm ringing a regular ⁓ I get it done. know anymore. But I ⁓ mean, give you a couple of examples. think I wrote about these in the piece, but I'll talk them through with you now, because they were really amazing examples and there are others as well. ⁓ One is, was with a, this one I didn't talk about in the piece. So I was... ⁓ A few months ago, my son got married, my oldest son got married and I ⁓ searching for a suit. I was searching for a suit, suit ⁓ There's not that the for suits in Israel is only slightly more than the demand for Kipot with Palestinian and Israeli flags on them. ⁓ know, Israelis, it's not really a, so I was at a little suit store in Modiin as well. ⁓ And guy there running it ⁓ managing it that time was like a religious with a. Josh Weinberg: That's all. Orly Erez Likhovski: Hahaha Alex Sinclair: with the black kippah, know, Josh, as you mentioned earlier, you can tell a lot about people from the kind of kippah that they wear. So he was wearing a sort of a black velvet kippah, kind of a modern, probably, again, you do all these generalizations before, which is one of the reasons why I struggle with it. to me, he looked like a sort of Haredi, but modern Haredi kind of guy. Obviously he's Haredi looking with the kippah, but running a suit shop. he's working anyway, all of that stuff is all complicated and not to the point. And ⁓ comes up to me, he says, Is that what I think it is on your kippah Is that a Palestinian flag? What the hell are you doing? you know not shouting at me, but he wasn't happy. So I started explaining and talking and we had a great conversation. I remember, be like, we were in the suit shop there for 10 minutes and we're talking and he's telling me how he feels about it. And I'm trying to explain to him my position. look, we parted, we shook hands, we parted. He didn't agree with me and I didn't agree with him. And I wouldn't expect that. But we... There was a moment of mutual listening and respect and understanding, which really does not happen very often in Israeli society. You guys in America, Josh know that American society polarized and is different from how it was years ago when people could talk over the aisle with each other. And Orly, you know what that's like here as well. it was it doesn't happen very often at all. And so this was a moment. And there'd been other moments like this where I really felt. Wow, okay, I was able to have this, know, and so that was really, and there's been other moments like that, where, you know, had those kind of really meaningful conversations. I'll give you another example. I was in a supermarket in Modiin also, in very close to my home, actually in the same shopping centre as with that suit shop I just realised that they're in the same, it was different, was, these situations happened, I don't remember, years apart probably. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah Alex Sinclair: This was a long, long ago this in the supermarket. I'm walking around buying my groceries or whatever it was. And many supermarkets, a lot of the ⁓ cashiers and people who in ⁓ the warehouse Palestinian Israelis, right? Arab Israelis, Israeli citizens who are ethnically and culturally and nationally in many ways Palestinian, ⁓ right? The % of so-called Arab Israeli even though that's, you know, ⁓ I guess you've done this on the podcast or maybe will do at some point about how they call themselves, how others call them. Anyway, she comes up to me and she says, I want to thank you on behalf of all of us. We've seen your, you know, we've noticed your kippah I assume all of us means all of the Palestinian staff have noticed it and said, and do see that guy walking around? And she comes and says, want to thank you on behalf of all of us. Right, right, exactly. Thank you for shopping at Shufersal Superstore. But no, but. ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Josh Weinberg: Mm. Yes, not just thank you on behalf of the entire supermarket, right? was, yeah, yeah, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Hahaha Alex Sinclair: that was all she wanted. We didn't have a conversation about it. She kind of felt that she wanted to come and say that to me. And I have had other situations where I have had conversations with Palestinians about it. But she she felt seen. I think that's exactly it. I think that's exactly it. She felt seen in a way. ⁓ to be seen by somebody wearing kippah is really, ⁓ unusual. And I think she felt that's right. And I felt, I'm one little person. ⁓ don't, you I'm not out there. There are people out there who, Josh Weinberg: No, that she felt seen, right? mean, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Alex Sinclair: who you both know and we know who are out there, you I know the territories, day in, day out, week in, week out, doing really incredibly brave stuff, being protective presence ⁓ visiting Palestinian villages and there's people who work in politics who do this. I'm nothing like that. ⁓ I've been on some of these, I've been on programmes, I've been on encounter programmes, which I'm sure some of your listeners have been on and all this. But at the end of day, I'm a middle class coward. living ⁓ in a middle class town and this is one thing that I can do. But that was a moment where I really felt that, okay, I'm doing something like that. That Palestinian woman has maybe been changed in some way by this interaction. I hope that religious guy was also changed by someone. And so it's something. the kippah is, ⁓ people have said to me, your key part is a gimmick and this, you're trying to draw attention to yourself. And it's really not that. It's like, this is something that even though I know it's ⁓ in people's eyes, it's difficult to see. It feels really Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Yeah. Alex Sinclair: really meaningful to me having worn it for many, years. Orly Erez Likhovski: So you know, if you could take us now to last week incident, ⁓ was very different from what you experienced ⁓ up until now, ⁓ those of our listeners or viewers who haven't heard about this. just, you know, tell us what happened. ⁓ Alex Sinclair: Okay, anyone not heard about this? It's insane, I feel like it's, ⁓ anyway. ⁓ For anyone who hasn't heard about it yet, that's fine. That means you're not, if you haven't heard about it, it you're not on social media, which is very healthy and continue to not be on social media, because that's probably the thing you could, smartest choice you can make for yourself. yeah, okay. So maybe that will draw the line. But anyway. ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Josh Weinberg: neither read Haaretz or the Jerusalem Post. Yeah, yeah. Yes. you may have heard of CNN as well. Yeah. ⁓ Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Hahaha Alex Sinclair: I know, can you? It's crazy. ⁓ my God. I'm sitting in a cafe also. All of these stories take place in Modiin And is it is a boring middle-class ⁓ suburban city. suburbia. is Israeli suburbia. It's the most... ⁓ Yeah, about between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. It's ⁓ not so far from the airport. It's within the green line. I think that's also important. know, some it's within... Josh Weinberg: being ground zero for, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Suburbia, yeah. Josh Weinberg: Just say that Modine's halfway between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, right? And so people, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Tell me, yeah. Alex Sinclair: uh pre-1967 borders um uh and it's i don't know it's it's the sort of the israeli equivalent of teaneck new jersey or something like that and i say that not to insult teanek new jersey but to praise it because i love Modiin and i like like suburbia so i'm sitting there in a cafe there's there's the kind of there's the main kind of downtown drag where the cat there's lots of cafes this cafe's got like al fresco seating it's like a Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Alex Sinclair: It's not an indoor cafe. They have a counter inside and then most of the seats are outside on the sidewalk. And so I'm sitting there ⁓ my laptop. I sit at this place the whole time. It's my second office. ⁓ know, I work at home a lot of the time. So I go and sit there for a change of scenery twice a week, sometimes three times a week. I spend much too much money on coffee there than I should. And I'm sitting there and a guy comes up to me, religious guy wearing a kippah, and shouting at me, your kippah is illegal. Your kippah is illegal. It's incitement. This is a word that we will come back to in a second. It's illegal. So I said to him, what I said to the guy in the suit shop and what I said to countless other people, said, it's not illegal. Do you want to sit down and talk about it? know, I put my laptop away. I'm happy to talk politics with you. We can talk about it in a respectful way. you want to, you know, let's talk about it. No, no, no. He continues to shout at me. No, he was older than me. He was maybe about 60, I guess. You know, he's an older guy. I it's a good question because Orly Erez Likhovski: What was was he a young guy? Was he young? No, okay. Alex Sinclair: you and this is maybe for a whole nother topic, but in terms of the kind of the young generation in Israel has become more extreme over, you know, over recent years. ⁓ So he says, I'm going to call the police on you. So I go you do what you have to do. Have nice day. And I went back to my laptop. He storms off. I think nothing more of it. my God. Not, not, not for a second. I'm like, he's the guy's the guy's venting steam. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah. Josh Weinberg: Did it occur to you that he would actually call the police on you? Yeah, not in million years, right? Yeah. Alex Sinclair: And that's what Israelis like to do. They like to vent steam and that's the kind of, know, shout at somebody, you know, that's your kind of morning exercise instead of yoga in Israel. And so he's ⁓ fine. I didn't think of another moment about it. But then five minutes later, two policemen, police officers, policewoman and a policeman approach me and they the same thing with an addition. They say that your kippah is illegal. It is incitement and we are detaining you. Now, I mean, there's a couple of funny things about this, guess funny. know, first of all, I did to say to them, ⁓ it's illegal, don't think it's illegal, they weren't having any of it. And then I didn't know what this Hebrew word, they to me, atah meukav which means you are detained. Now, I didn't know what this word meant. My Hebrew is okay. ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Alex Sinclair: You know, but they did not. missed, I missed this. obviously missed the lesson at Ulpan where they taught us, you know, legal and police language. ⁓ I missed that. I missed that class. So I had no idea what she was saying to me. I thought she was saying Ata mukar, which means you are known. I'm like, what the hell is she saying Ata mukar? know me, but you don't, I didn't, had no idea. So I was a little bit, okay. So, so anyway, then she says, you're coming with us. She makes ⁓ she makes me give her. Orly Erez Likhovski: Arrest, arrest versus detainment, yeah. Josh Weinberg: Yes, yes, yeah, yeah. Alex Sinclair: laptop and my phone. I say can I phone my wife to tell her what's going on? No, she takes everything from me and escorts me to the police car which is just parked on the sidewalk there just next to, you know, 10 second walk from where I'm sitting. They make me empty my... So here's the thing, so here's the thing, so here's the thing, people have said to me, know, didn't anybody start filming? Orly Erez Likhovski: And sort of everybody's looking at you in the cafe, like what runs through your mind? I mean, it's insane. Josh Weinberg: It's like this big scene, yeah. Alex Sinclair: I haven't seen any film on social media pop up saying, oh, here's the, you know, I saw this. Now I think there are some extenuating circumstances to that, are the first of all, was like, as it's on the paper, I was, was in a little bit of a kind of a corner. I wasn't surrounded by two other tables right next to me. They were like two tables away. So maybe people didn't see exactly what was going on at once. And also I did not make a fuss. I didn't start shouting. I'm a good, you know, like I said, I'm, I live in a boring city and I'm a boring. nice Jewish boy from North London. So if the police say you're coming with us, I'm like, okay, I guess I'm coming with you. you know. Josh Weinberg: Right, I was gonna ask you, did you sit on the floor and cross your arms and refuse to chain yourself to the espresso machine and you know. Alex Sinclair: No, I didn't. I didn't. I totally didn't because it's like not, I'm like, it's not how I think it's not how I roll. mean, it's like, I've seen people do, I've been at demonstrations where people do that, you know, and I'm like, oh, good for them. I'm not so, so, uh, anyway, so yeah, so, so, so only at the very end when she took my phone in and then when she said, no, no, no, you were not allowed to make a phone call. Orly Erez Likhovski: Wait. You Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Alex Sinclair: Then I turned around to the table next to, I sort of, can somebody film this? But it was over so quickly. Maybe people didn't have the chance. Anyway, I haven't seen anything. wanna, you know, there's this phrase in Hebrew, to judge people favorably. I kind of give you exactly, great, thank you. Yeah, you have to give people the benefits out. I think that, you know, I don't mean it was because people were like, oh, to hell with him. Let the police take him, good for him. I think it was just that it had. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Yeah. Josh Weinberg: To give people the benefit of the doubt basically, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: They just haven't noticed. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Alex Sinclair: Exactly. think that's what it was. So anyway, so to me, it's the police car. empty my pockets. I in the back seat with the, it was man, with a man, the male officer and the woman officer was driving. ⁓ Another, ⁓ so that during the police journey, it's a one minute journey from the cafe to the police station. And I'm trying engage in conversation. I'm trying to say, listen, you know, I know that you think that my, Orly Erez Likhovski: So they took her to the police car. Alex Sinclair: Like I think I'm in the suit shop with the suit man again. said, I know that you think that what I'm saying is not, I think that I understand that your position is legitimate, but we live in a pluralistic society. And my position also is I was trying to have a political conversation with him, but the police officer was like, no, there's no such thing as Palestine, no such thing as a Palestinian flag. You're being detained. That's it. So we get to the... Josh Weinberg: You Orly Erez Likhovski: You Josh Weinberg: At this point, Alex or Orly, actually, can you just give us a little bit of background why this is illegal in terms of the displaying of a Palestinian flag? Orly, know, has done lots of this and Anat Hoffman has made, you know, in many years a big activist stink about this. say, know, just just our listeners to understand what the charge is exactly. Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Well, yeah, well, first of all, we must say that displaying a Palestinian flag is not illegal. Okay, there is no such offense in our law books. What they usually are saying is that it can cause the disruption of peace or of the order, of the public order. ⁓ this is why they sometimes not allow the displaying of this flag. However, both the courts and the attorney general have ⁓ guidelines that said, because of freedom of expression and the importance of political freedom of expression, this is something that should not be used to detain people, right? So like saying that this is illegal is fake news and it's wrong. It's just not the case, okay? If a person does it in such a way that somehow encourages, you know, hatred or, this could be problematic. But obviously what, you know, Alex has been doing is not illegal ⁓ had no basis whatsoever ⁓ detain him. Alex Sinclair: And would just add that the of organizations like IRAC is ⁓ so and so important to this because if it were not for them, there would not be all of these cases that have gone to the Supreme Court and have resulted in ⁓ those ⁓ resolutions. it's such important and folks who listening to this... ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Alex Sinclair: You know, again, I've been asked to say this, like, you know, it's really important work to support and to educate yourself about, IRAC others in that sphere as well. ⁓ I'll ⁓ to police station and they walk in we go to a cell and they say, in there. that's where I was like, and I remember actually I ⁓ seriously? ⁓ Like my people me I was like, seriously? Orly Erez Likhovski: Okay, so you get to the police station. Alex Sinclair: And she said, yep, she get in. Hebrew. She if you don't go in there yourself, we will put you in there by force. By the way, I should have said that this was this phrase. I think I wrote about this in my original Facebook post about it. So this, this phrase that they use the whole way along, starting at the cafe. If you don't come with us of your own accord, we will take you by force. If you don't get in the police car right now, we will put you in there by force. If you know that this was, this was there. And it came up again at the very end of the story, which we'll get to in just in one second. So I sat this police, so I go into again. They took off my belt. They made me do the whole thing like in a movie, you hands against the wall frisk me down You know and slam the door. So I'm like, holy shit. I was still I was still I mean the crazy thing was still having this like naive I was still I sitting there I was so calm because like any minute now the old Wise and grey-haired captain of the police station is gonna open the door and you say I'm terribly sorry. Mr Sinclair This this this young police officer got a little bit overexcited. She shouldn't have done that You know, please accept our apology. Have a nice day. I totally thought that was what was going to happen. it didn't, obviously. So sat there for around 20 minutes. I didn't have my watch. this is guesswork, know, in terms of working out the time with time backwards, I guess, in terms of I figured out it have been about that. They take me back to the street to the front of the police station to the street. They give me my bag ⁓ with my computer, etc. it, my phone. And she's holding my kippah she says, OK, you're free to go. And I say, but ⁓ can I have my kippah No, you can either go now without the kippah or you can go back into the cell force. So said, ⁓ listen, ⁓ don't go back in the cell. I don't want any force, but that kippah is important to me. Can I have it back? So that's when she goes back inside. 10 seconds later, she comes back. I didn't see it happen, but she comes back with the kippah kind cut in a third of the kippah. cut out, you can see the photos all over internet. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it gives me the kippah back in this kind of mutilated way. Somebody told me as a joke, I have no idea if this is true not, the police have now gone and removed all scissors from the police station. That might be one of these like memes that's going around. But ⁓ anyway, yeah, so gave me the kippah back cut up like that. And that was it, I went home, phoned my wife, was shaken. Josh Weinberg: Like she took out scissors from her desk and cut out the Palestinian flag part. Yeah. Alex Sinclair: started to, I went on to a couple of ⁓ media groups, the WhatsApp groups I'm part of and said this just happens to me, ⁓ anyone help me, point me to a lawyer who can help me with this while I figure out what else I can do. And ⁓ the is, guess, history, current events. Orly Erez Likhovski: And it really blew up very quickly. ⁓ And I want to ask you soon, what did you do afterwards? But I have to say that it seems, someone me, it's ⁓ shocking, not surprising. So everything that is happening around us is, ⁓ so unbelievable things are happening, ⁓ but are still surprised by things, including this incident, which is like, I can't believe this happened. It's still ⁓ beyond Alex Sinclair: Yeah. it Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: even though we know the police, we know that the police is, the policemen are doing things that Ben Gver, their minister would like. And so ⁓ seems like something that could have happened, but still it's unbelievable. So ⁓ sort of asking you, ⁓ did you feel? I ⁓ obviously we're shocked, but just to imagine what went ⁓ through mind. I mean, after that it's... ⁓ Alex Sinclair: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was a whole whole mix of emotions. There was like kind of disbelief. Like did that really just happen? That's insane. And relief. was definitely relief because I was in that prison cell. I'm thinking, am I going to be here overnight? Like what the hell is going on? did. Am I being taken to court? I had no idea what was going on. So when I was let out, there was definitely relief because being in a prison cell, I've not had that experience before in my life. And so, you know, that was a Josh Weinberg: It's a real shehecheanu moment, think. Alex Sinclair: I was relieved to be out of that. Yeah, I didn't say shekhiyanu in there So there was that. There was anger, like, how dare she do that? What the hell? W-T-A-F, people say. there was that as well. A sense of like, okay, because one of the first things, as I said, I went on this group and I was like, I need a lawyer. I am not going to like, this this, Josh Weinberg: Okay. Alex Sinclair: This cannot pass. I don't know what I can do. I didn't know what I could do, but I was determined that I'm going to do something, file a complaint. don't know what didn't know. So I was like, all to that. also, think that the next morning I woke up, the morning, this happened on ⁓ the ⁓ of Yom Hazikaron, the day of when that evening was Yom Hazikaron, Memorial Day. So I woke up on Memorial Day morning feeling just really depressed. didn't know what I could do, but I was determined that I'm going to do something, the next morning, this happened on ⁓ the day ⁓ of Erev Yom Hazikaron, So I woke up on Memorial Day morning feeling just really depressed. and a little bit devastated I woke up I was like the police my police the police in my country who I am as a citizen and meant to on like they see me as the enemy see me as the problem and what happens if tomorrow I need a policeman what happens if tomorrow ⁓ you know car gets stolen or you know I have a burglary and a little bit devastated because this what about to say kind of this didn't kind of trickle through to me on that in that immediate aftermath ⁓ but woke up and I was like the police police the police in my country who I am as a citizen and meant to rely on like they see me the enemy they see me as the problem and what happens if tomorrow I need a policeman what happens if tomorrow ⁓ you know my gets stolen you know I have a burglary or I don't even you know happens if I need the police they okay what's your name and I say Alex Sinclair and they say you you're at the of the queue now mate you're at the bottom of the back to the back of the line like that that's it that was a really devastating feeling that ⁓ that feeling that the police not ⁓ are not for me happens if I need the police they okay what's your name and I say Alex Sinclair and they say you you're at the of the queue now mate you're at the bottom of the back to the back of the line like that that's it that was a really devastating feeling that the police ⁓ because as you already they've become politicised they've become yeah they've become politicised and who are focused on these things rather than actually solving crime but so but ⁓ that feeling that the are not ⁓ are not for me Josh Weinberg: No. No. Alex Sinclair: and are not there to protect and serve as you say in the States. But I've actually seen me as the... That was devastating. Orly Erez Likhovski: And yeah, and I think. And I think we have to remember that at the time when you were detained, like around that time, boy was ⁓ in a pizza place in Petah Tikva. I mean, the violence is increasing like never before. ⁓ mean, there is so much the police needs to do and instead they go ⁓ detain you for wearing a kippah. I mean, it's really mind boggling when we're thinking what, you the huge challenges that we have to our national security these days. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Alex Sinclair: Yeah, yeah Josh Weinberg: sorry. Alex Sinclair: I know. Yeah, yeah. I actually want to say something about that. I mean, you're right. was, was, it was, it can I just say something about the Pizzeria listeners may not know. As you said, there was, there was a murder in a Pizzeria, a guy young, I think 21 years old was, was working at the Pizzeria. Some other kids, like young kids, like teenage kids came in and was spraying spray paint. They're like, we have this kind of stupid graffiti spray paint that we use on your parts. We, some people do. And he asked him nicely not to do it to mess up the shop. They waited outside till his shift finished and they stabbed the guy to death. Now. Josh Weinberg: So, if it's... Alex Sinclair: I'm very appreciative of of the support that I've got from this story and it's really been really heartwarming and I've got it from ⁓ reform movement and from IRAC and ⁓ all kinds of organisations. But really, what to me was nothing. 20 minutes in a cell and a kippah that's cut up that I can go and replace. ⁓ This guy stabbed to death and this stuff is happening all over the place. really, really troubled, devastating places in society. This incident with the police is like one kind of a manifestation of it, which like I say is nothing compared to the terrible things that are going on all around us. we, a society, we have to wake up because this is, it's devastating. Josh Weinberg: Yeah, so I think that's actually an important segue to ask about the bigger picture as we, know, we Jewish education and Talmud geeks like to say, know, my nafkah mina, like what will come from this do you think? And, you know, I'm thinking a lot about your book that I love and have, you know, used many times, you know, loving the real Israel. Is this the real Israel and is this the Israel that you continue to teach? And what's your message to both Israelis and Jews around the world to say, you know, how do we struggle and wrestle with this being the real Israel and sort of putting this in the context of, you know, a conversation on what liberal Zionism means here when we're seeing such, I say, anti-liberal behavior ⁓ where can get arrested and detained for ⁓ just ⁓ a, know, a provocative kippah. Alex Sinclair: Ahem. He he he he he he. Yeah, yeah. Look, maybe I'll answer that very briefly on the kind of very small technical level and then more depth with the bigger questions that you're asking. On the technical level, I have filed complaint to ⁓ the police ⁓ of official complaints department. Everyone tells me that I should not expect any kind of ⁓ of positive or supportive outcome because that's also ⁓ controlled by Ben Gveer. I'm in touch with this lawyer and we're sort of considering next steps. One of those might be a civil lawsuit, but I don't know yet. you know, we're to, I think I'd just wait for this to die down and then figure out. Okay. or is it, Orly you're a lawyer as well. Is that, is that I didn't know. Okay. I saw it. I didn't know that. okay. So, so so maybe talk afterwards offline, but I was, I was put in I was put in touch with this lawyer by, by, Josh Weinberg: I do know a good lawyer, by the way. Yeah, yeah. ⁓ right, of course. She's all of our lawyer, Orly Erez Likhovski: Yes. Yeah. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: You Alex Sinclair: by a colleague of mine who's connected to the New Israel Fund, which is another of these important organizations. So I imagine it's somebody you probably know, ⁓ anyway. In terms of the bigger picture questions that you're asking, Josh, I mean, they are, yeah, they're also devastating bigger picture questions. So my first book as you say was called Loving the Real Israel and was really an attempt to say Israel is a flawed complicated place which is sometimes fabulous and sometimes, you know problematic and we need to help people American Jews develop complex identities and complex relationships with Israel that include grappling with its flaws and include as well grappling with its beautiful aspects and that's really what that whole book was about, you know and And in some ways, I think that approach is really important. But I have another book coming out ⁓ end of this year or beginning of next year. We don't have a date yet, an exact date yet, which kind of follow up, but maybe taking it in a slightly further direction. And the provisional title of that book is called ⁓ The Struggle the Soul of Judaism. ⁓ And I've... Josh Weinberg: Mmm. Alex Sinclair: I think that's where we are. We are in a struggle for the soul of Judaism. There are two competing Josh Weinberg: You're saying Judaism specifically and not Israeli society or you know, but but Judaism at its core. Yeah Alex Sinclair: I think it's you next, because I think it includes the diaspora as well. think that the Ben-Gvir, Smotrich, the Smotrich and Haredi approaches to Judaism. I know that those are not the same. The Ben-Gvir and Smotrich approach is different in all kinds of important ways from the Haredi approach to Judaism. But those there's a kind of... Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: you Alex Sinclair: a of a political alliance basically, a political and religious alliance really between them in many ways. The only way that that alliance is chipped away is through the army, which is probably beyond the scope of this conversation, but maybe it's from another one. anyway, but there's this, they're pulling Judaism and through Judaism, Israeli society in a really, I think, scary, terrifying direction. And we, by we, I mean, Orly Erez Likhovski: you Alex Sinclair: you know, liberal Jews, liberal Zionists. By the way, the word liberal is also a word that people tell me is just sometimes these days not so helpful, especially in the American context, because it has all kinds of other resonances. I'm still kind of grappling for other words. I sometimes use the word now mainstream Zionists and mainstream Jews, it's so I'm still kind of trying to figure out. people who are not that people have a different vision of Judaism, people have a pluralist, open, tolerant. Orly Erez Likhovski: Inclusive, Alex Sinclair: serious inclusive, inclusive vision of Judaism, which is, which is, is, should be serious about Jewish texts and Jewish life and Jewish living and Jewish podcasts. And it's like, this is, this is, this is like, we, need serious liberal Jews to realize that our Judaism is being pushed off a cliff. And if we don't do something about it now, then the Judaism, forget about Israel, Israel will become a country that we don't even want to have anything to do with, let alone try to develop complex relationships with. And Judaism will become a Judaism that we don't want to have anything to do with. I really think we're at this nexus point where Judaism itself is facing kind of two competing, you know, of roads or paths ahead. And if we, and I think it's a struggle, I think, you know, I don't call people like Ben-Gverian Smotrich my enemy, you know, because I know who my enemies are, Hamas and Hezbollah and Iran, I know what an enemy is. But they are definitely my opponents in terms of what the future of Judaism will look like. ⁓ ⁓ think we have a struggle on our hands. think if we lose that struggle, ⁓ will be devastating. we to see. So ⁓ that's difference between my first book and this one, which is that, yeah. Josh Weinberg: Let me dwell on that for a second if I can because I think that's a critically important distinction between enemies and opponents. I think you touch on that in your Jerusalem Post piece because do contend with so many people who see the Palestinian flag ⁓ as a of ⁓ my enemy as a symbol of Jew hatred, as a symbol of, you know, some people even go as far as to compare it to a swastika to say, you know, that's, that's what that stands for. And seeing you with that up ⁓ visceral responses to them. And to say that like, wait a minute, are you siding with our enemy? And I would even, you know, go so far as to say that, you know, ⁓ now Israeli society can come into post-trauma, you know, moving on from just Alex Sinclair: Mm-hmm. Orly Erez Likhovski: you Josh Weinberg: claim old trauma, you know, in ⁓ years and months after October ⁓ How do ⁓ you who your enemy is as, you know, those same Jews that you mentioned about the police saw you as the enemy for just wearing that and versus the opponents and what that means for, you know, security versus the soul and Guff and Neshama and all those important, you know, questions all into one here. ⁓ Yeah. Alex Sinclair: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I great and I understand people who think that, you and I get it. I mean, I do get it. Hamas, and I said this in the Jerusalem Post piece as mentioned, Hamas are my enemy. There's just no two ways about it. Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, ⁓ and Americans support. Hamas and Hezbollah and Iran, progressive left on campus who like shouting, ⁓ intifada revolution and globalizing the intifada from the river to the sea. People who are supporting Hamas and Hezbollah, they are my enemy. They're calling for my death. They're calling for my country's destruction ⁓ to kill and my children and everyone who I love because we are Israelis or because we are Jews. So I get ⁓ I understand that they're my enemy too. Josh Weinberg: Mmm. Alex Sinclair: And this is what I said the post article, we have to hold multiple truths together. That's one truth. And the other truth is that there are Palestinians who also march under that flag or for whom that flag is also their flag, who want to live in peace with us, who ⁓ in dialogue with us, ⁓ want ⁓ live side by side with us in the future, who ⁓ the of the Palestinian Authority, who day by day, even since October the 7th, continue to be in day by day security cooperation with the army in the West Bank. And so Palestinian flag is a complicated flag. Yeah, it's Hamas's flag. But yes, it's also the flag of Palestinians who want to live in peace with us. And of when I'm wearing it or when I'm thinking about Palestinians, I'm thinking about the Palestinians who want to be in with us. ⁓ And the irony having the two flags together, that's the opposite of what Hamas wants. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Alex Sinclair: It's the opposite of what Hamas... Hamas is against having those two flags together. So to say, you're supporting Hamas, no, this is exact... This is anathema, having these two flags here, is anathema. It's the antithesis of Hamas. Josh Weinberg: Mmm. Orly Erez Likhovski: Right, right, yeah. Yeah. Josh Weinberg: the antithesis of Hamas, Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. So, yeah, I think actually it's an eye-opener to think about the Israeli flag, right? I mean, for years we have had problems holding the Israeli flag because it has been appropriated by people whose values we disagree with completely, right? It has been appropriated by the extreme right wing. And during the 2023 pro-democracy protest, we reclaimed the flag, right? Because we said, no, it is our flag too. So obviously the Israeli flag represents values that are very dear to us, but some people use it to reflect values that we don't agree with to say the least. And I also want to mention that exactly a year ago, in the Reform Synagogue in Raanana, ⁓ was hurt by a violent mob ⁓ there was a screening of the joint Israeli-Palestinian ceremony of bereaved families who choose to mark Memorial Day, Israel Memorial Day, by actually... Alex Sinclair: Yeah. Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: getting together with the Palestinian counterparts and talking about the different future. And I think it goes the same because like, right, the narrative against the ceremony is that it encourages terror and encourages hate, which is a fake news, exactly like what you're saying, right? It's actually the complete opposite. It's actually thinking about, you know, against violence and against war and against bloodshed and for a reality of peace and coexistence. And I think, as you say, I think those messages in Israel, especially after October 7th, are very complex and very hard for people to grapple, but it just makes them all the more important, right, to present this view. And I think, going back to the question that Josh has asked you and the problems of, you know, that Israel and Judaism is sort of slipping away from us, I think that both the incident in Raanana and your incident and many other... very problematic incidents that we're seeing in the last few months just make, I think, ⁓ more more Israelis and liberal Jews that we have to present an alternative, right? Instead of giving up, we actually have to lean in ⁓ show that this is not our Israel, this is not our Judaism. It people to understand that they can't stay silent. They have to raise a voice and pick a side. ⁓ And this sense, I think it's a very, very important call for action. to raise a clear voice and to stand up for your values. Yeah. Alex Sinclair: I agree. I totally agree. And I think that has to happen in Israel and in the diaspora. I think that ⁓ need, ⁓ know, and if people are asking, well, what can I do about this? I think that going ⁓ a local synagogue on a Friday night, your local Reform synagogue on a Friday night and being there and having a vibrant Friday night experience or inviting ⁓ around for a Friday or a morning event, whatever, ⁓ living in a Reform. liberal way, that's an act of resistance, no less in this struggle for the soul of judaism because we need our side to be there. this is not saying, oh, this is not like the typical, oh, whoa is us assimilation, et cetera, et cetera. mean, this is about assimilation is bad. Assimilation is bad, not because, I don't know, it's the... Josh Weinberg: Mmm. Alex Sinclair: Jewish continuity and the assimilation is bad because it means that we are losing people who we need to save the soul of Judaism, less. And so we need people to strap if people care about this amazing, beautiful religion and history ⁓ and culture back centuries or millennia that we have and don't want it to be taken over and turned into something abhorrent by people. certain people in Israel and in the diaspora as well who support them, we've got to stand up and be counted and we have to stand up and we have to win this battle. Josh Weinberg: And how do you see that manifesting? I would you want a movement of people? You know, I've seen all the memes, you know, of, of, you know, people inspired by your kippah. mean, I even saw, you know, a New York Yankees in New York Mets kippah. mean, you know, no less very, very provocative. And I think that that will be, you know, people are getting arrested in the streets for that now. But, you know, in terms of people embracing that, you know, wearing a bathing suit or a swimming costume. Alex Sinclair: Yeah, that was hilarious, yeah. Josh Weinberg: out on the beaches of Tel Aviv with Israelis and Palestinian flags. there one thing that you could say, here's what I would hope to come from this ⁓ the streets? then let's about hope for a minute. Orly Erez Likhovski: You Alex Sinclair: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll only need one minute for that, for the whole conversation. No, I'm joking. ⁓ Josh Weinberg: Yeah, yeah, for him. But is there one thing that you would want people to go out and do? mean, of course, you'd live inspiring Jewish lives and that, yeah. Sure. Alex Sinclair: I don't, I, it's hard for me to answer that question. I don't think there's one thing. I certainly don't think that it's not, what I do is not right for everybody. You know, I'm not saying that I don't, you know, I mean, maybe if thousands of people were walking around the streets wearing a kippah like that, then things might change. So, but I think it's about just doing lots of little things. You know, in Israel, we have elections coming up. We have to make sure there's a change in government, even though I am not amazingly optimistic about Speaking of hope, I'm not amazingly optimistic about the potential, you if there is a change in government, it will be Bennett Lapid, are the presumably who are the, you who the new leadership of Israel and they're more moral, certainly more moral leaders than the current one and will create a coalition that's pretty different from the current one. But I'm not hope, you know, not hanging amazing hopes that they're going to change, at least with regard to the Palestinians, that they're going to change policy in a big way. Anyway, so. I think there's just lot of little things to do. It's about being an activist and trying to change this in whatever way you can, whether that's having conversations with people, whether that's about where you put your money, whether that's about what you put on your head or on your sleeve or on what badge you wear. it's about engaging in conversation, hard conversations with friends or relatives who are from the other side and trying to have see your side. ⁓ I have a magic. a magic wand for this, so, you know. Josh Weinberg: And I think that message is for Israelis and for diaspora Jews as well, right? Orly Erez Likhovski: I-I-I-I- Alex Sinclair: Yeah, I want to say for diaspora Jews, here's, mean, probably running out of time, but ⁓ here's one question to maybe to leave you with, and maybe we can come at this another time, is like, ⁓ does it for diaspora Jews to walk around with those two flags? What does it mean in terms of how might that change what's going on on campuses, in ⁓ know, on campuses, and what's going on in high schools in terms of ⁓ kids being bullied, and what's going on in society in general, ⁓ the Jewish community began to appropriate not Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Yeah. Alex Sinclair: every time not saying put the Palestinian flag on the Bima next to the American and the Israeli flags. I'm not saying that but what would it look like for the Jewish community to begin to be more out there about saying Israeli and Palestinian flags together? What does it mean? What would it mean if somebody walks through a college encampment, an anti-Zionist thing and saying, here, those want peace, can you sign onto both flags? There are Israelis who want to... dismiss and to ⁓ de-legitimize the Palestinian flag. I, a Jew, am saying, no, I want both flags here. Are you ready to join me with both of those? Or are you going to say, you know, if from the river to the sea is really a call for peace, then you need to be you need to be legitimizing my flag and my narrative and my story as well. And I wonder what if that might change a little bit some of what goes on in the larger American conversation. That's probably for another conversation. But I sit here and think about that ⁓ in Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, yeah, I do think it is sort of a watershed moment in Israel, probably outside of Israel too, in raising awareness and in getting people to think, right? And I think in this in and of itself is important and obviously getting people to understand that even if there are opinions that you don't like, well, this is something that that's democracy is all about. And by the way, Judaism as well. So this is I think it's a tremendously important. So really, we are getting to the Alex Sinclair: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: conclusion of this session and I want to ask you what we ask all of our guests, which is what makes you hopeful for the future of Israel, for the future of liberal Zionism? I know these are very challenging days and definitely after your experience, but as you said, I think you've gotten a lot of very, very warm responses. I it has been a terrible experience and I'm sure you've been overwhelmed and we're so thankful. Alex Sinclair: Yeah, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: for you for joining us today. can find hope in this difficult time? Alex Sinclair: All right, so I'll answer that in two ways. The first way is a little bit naughty and I will give a plug for one of my other books. It's my, as well as the non-fiction stuff, I've been a novelist. I've started doing, I've written a couple of novels in the past few years and my first novel, Perfect Enemy, is a novel about, it's really, it's like fiction. It's like Michael Crichton meets Fauda and it raises all of these questions. It kind of raises, they said that life follows art or whatever. it does, it kind of grapples with this question of hope. Orly Erez Likhovski: You Alex Sinclair: versus opposite of hope. ⁓ one of the central characters in it is somebody who's more hopeful. so anyway, so it's a fun read and it raises some of these questions from the perspective of like fiction, which is a totally different way of getting at these things. anyway, that's my little plug done. What makes me hopeful? I think the responses have been amazing. ⁓ And I say that the, like said, there is a struggle going on. Orly Erez Likhovski: You Alex Sinclair: But I think the responses to it show me that there's a lot more ⁓ people who are on our side or potentially on our side than you might have thought. And I would say that a lot of people have said things to me like, well, I don't agree with your kippah, but I really strongly uphold your right to wear it. And also, I think, a really important message of hope. the moment that you enable, the moment you say, ⁓ I may not like that, but let's talk about it. That's also a gateway to saying, okay, I may not, you know, there's different gradations that I don't like it. One is I think it's the flag of our enemies, but I still support your right to wear it. I a la Nazis marching in Skokie, which I think is not the right analogy, people have been using that analogy. But then the more you converse, the more you talk, the more you engage, that can then slide into, okay, I don't like it. And it's not like Nazis marching in Skokie, but I don't really agree with it for other reasons. then now, and look, eventually, hopefully it gets people to a place where they're saying, you know what, I may not be convinced that this is the right way forward, but I'm willing to listen. so, you know, that gives me hope that we, because we have to talk about these, both the freedom of speech issues and the bigger peace issues well. have to talk about that. And I think this has, I think this has opened people's eyes to the fact that, okay, like, you know, when you have this kind of really kind of egregious kind of thing happening from the police, we have to stop, we have to like say, okay, where are we going as a society? What does this mean? And I think the moment you're able to open up that conversation about our future and who do we want to be and what are the best selves that we want to be. And yes, there are Palestinians who want to kill us and we have to defend ourselves against them. But let's think about that. What do we want our best selves to be regards to people who out there who might want to live with us? I think that maybe, just maybe, this incident might raise that question and put this question of who do we want to be as a people back onto the Israeli if minutes in a police cell enabled me to do that, then that's a good use of 20 minutes of my time, I think. Josh Weinberg: Mmm. Beautiful. Yeah. Wonderful. Well, Alex, thank you so much. We really appreciate you taking the time to be with us in this conversation, especially giving everything that's happened over the past week. And I'm sure you're, know, you're, you whether this is your 15 minutes or hopefully even ⁓ beyond you know, being in ⁓ every in every podcast and every news, let's take advantage of it. ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Josh Weinberg: And your story has clearly resonated with so many people and we're really grateful for the chance to hear directly from you and not just about the incident itself, but what it represents more broadly. really, Todah Rabba thank you so much for being with us. Alex Sinclair: Yeah, it's been... I really appreciate the invitation and the chance to talk with you and keep doing your good work guys. Orly Erez Likhovski: Thank you, Alex. And conversations like this are exactly why we started this podcast. This podcast exists because we believe Israel can be better for all who live here and for all who care about it from afar. But that takes honest conversations. It takes a partnership. If this episode meant something to you, please share it and help us keep this conversation going. Josh Weinberg: To stay up to date, subscribe on YouTube or wherever you listen to podcasts. And if you want to help us grow, go ahead, leave a five-star review, maybe something even like, hey, the next time I get arrested for wearing a provocative kippah, I'd want to be interviewed about it on the Pluralist Podcast, and then send this episode to someone who should be part of the conversation. And if you're interested in sponsoring an episode or marking an upcoming occasion, we'd love to hear from you. And as always, if there's a topic you want us to explore, please reach out. and have a pluralist day. Todah Rabba Orly Erez Likhovski: Thank you. Bye bye. Hmm.