Latest / "the good work talk show" with mallory contois / the good work talk show | ep. 08 - tyler palmer

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the good work talk show | ep. 08 - tyler palmer · "the good work talk show" with mallory contois

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_04: Anything is interesting if you go deep enough.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_04: Just pick a thing and you're like, I'm gonna work on that problem.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_04: You can infinitely fall in love with that problem.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_04: My whole career hinged on just like a few small decisions that maybe other people wouldn't have made.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_04: I didn't grow up with parents in tech.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_04: Like I didn't know how like equity works.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_04: I didn't even know you got equity for like joining a company and thinking about who you want to work with.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_04: They have to have a heart of gold.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_04: And they also have to be beat.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_04: Just focused on excellence.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_02: Today on Good Work, I have Tyler Palmer, a dear friend of mine.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: He was at Patreon for 10 years, from the very beginning, all the way through leading their entire operations team.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: He is an incredible operator, an incredible leader.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_02: He's now an investor, and he is a true lover of music and creatives, and he crafted a career for himself where he gets to spend 100% of his time thinking about those things.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: So very excited to talk to him about how he ended up at Patreon, why he stayed for those full 10 years, and what he's up to now.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Mallory Conqua, and this is Good Work.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, cool.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: Well, Tyler, thank you for being here.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to Good Work.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_04: My pleasure.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_04: One of my favorites.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_04: This is um oh, we are off to a wonderful start here.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_02: Good.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um so usually we start all the way at the beginning with young Tyler.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: I would love to hear a little bit about what you were like as a kid, what were some influences you had around you, like what were you into?
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: How would maybe your parents have described you?
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: Tell me.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_04: I I hope they would describe me as uh nice to people.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_04: Hey, mom and dad, they probably will listen.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'll send it to them.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_04: We'll see.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_04: I I hope people would describe me as working hard and treating people nicely.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_04: That feels like it really.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: Even as a kid, you were the perfect angel.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_04: I hope.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_04: I hope.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_04: You'll have to ask my mom and dad.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_04: Um on the career front, one one like story of self or like one thing that I helped that I think helped form my my upbringing was both my parents were small business owners.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_04: So um my dad did uh kitchen and bathroom renovations, small business, and my mom had a clothing store up in the valley.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, I didn't know that.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_04: And my mom would write handwritten notes to every customer that came in when they would like buy something.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_04: If it was their first time.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: Small businesses are the best.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, just the best.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_04: But like that's where I through both of them I learned about how important it is to like treat customers and you know that anything that they want you can deliver.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_04: And my mom watching her like build this sense of community and like the gratitude she had towards her customers, and they would come in and spend time with her, and like maybe they would buy something, but they'd be in there for like two hours, you know, like just wanting to be around her.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_04: Um and then with my dad, I remember as a kid like going on the sales calls, like going into people's homes, and like I loved that.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_04: I was always just obsessed with it.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_04: Like, what's gonna make it, what's gonna make the deal work?
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_04: What does the customer need?
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_04: Can we deliver it?
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_04: Um, how do you build that trust when you're like inside someone's home and like talking to them about how to remodel their stuff?
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_04: So they they had a huge influence on me.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_04: I think that's where I first learned like the value of hard work and like building business up.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_04: Um so that's that's a big story of self, and and uh I think it had a huge impact on on um, yeah, my like first love of like business and building.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, were you an outgoing kid or were you more introverted?
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_04: I think I was more outgoing.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_04: You asked about like I think like what groups I ran in or like what I spent my time on.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_04: Another story of self from my younger years is I jumped around to a lot of different communities and like identities.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_04: I played ice hockey like my whole life, starting at age four or five.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_04: My brother played, so I just like followed in his footsteps.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_04: Is your brother older or younger?
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_04: Older older brother.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and then I also loved musical theater and like sang in the choir.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_02: And like, so I had to like have we not a cappella together.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_04: Oh well, that's gonna happen in this episode, isn't it?
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_04: That's what I was that's what I was promised.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_04: Um no, but you know, when you like, when you're like growing up in elementary school and middle school and high school, and you're like going from the jocks and like the hockey bros to the musical theater kids, like you have to learn to talk to people in in different ways and meet them where they are.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_04: And um, I think that formed like a lesson for me pretty early on that was like you don't have to put yourself in a box, you could just like follow your love and passion and the people you want to be around, and you don't have to worry about stereotypes and doing the cool thing.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so yeah, that's another thing about my childhood that I remember.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_02: So then you went to college for music and business at USC.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_02: That's a pretty specific choice to make for your college focus.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_02: What was the maybe intent, or like why did you make that choice?
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_04: Totally.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I grew up in Southern California and I had a lot of like artists in my friends and family network.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_04: I had one cousin in particular that had a big impact on me.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_04: Um he was a guitarist and started playing guitar at like age five or something, and practiced like 10 hours a day and rose with that instrument to like getting a full ride, like full scholarship to USC for guitar.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_04: He was a couple years older than me, so like someone I looked up to.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_04: And then he ended up signing with a band and a major record label deal, and they went on tour of the country, and um, I would like leave school, I would like ditch school and like go on tour, and like, yeah, you know, like it was so fun.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but we're sitting one day and he goes, Tyler, isn't it so weird that like I made it to the top of my field, like the top of my craft, and I'm still having a hard time like building a life in the US.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_04: Like the mortgage and the gym membership and starting a family, like he did it, like he accomplished the dream that only half a percent of people would do, and even he couldn't, you know, financially, it like didn't make a ton of sense, and that felt like a big injustice to me.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_04: And I had that story play out like dozens of times across musicians and painters, like all these people that I knew.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and it felt really wrong to me, even like as a teen.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so I knew at age 16, I was like, that is the problem that I want to point myself towards is take my love of art and my love of business and like try to help artists and creative people make money.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_04: And so I studied music and business at USC.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_04: I did their program before it was the cool this is before it was like the Jimmy Ivine, Dr.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_04: Dre, like cool program.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_04: It was the the early roots of that.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_04: It was called the music industry program.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_04: You took you you like studied music and also contracts and law and marketing and finance and stuff.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so I wanted to point myself at that problem and help artists make money.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and then I had a couple of standard music industry jobs.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_04: Like I was like, well, maybe record labels can help.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, okay, I don't know.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_04: The record labels are gonna help that much.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_04: The more you learned.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, exactly.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_04: Or maybe like music publishing, and then I was like, okay, that wasn't for me.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_04: It all felt too like part of the problem and not the solution.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_04: And so that's what eventually got me shifting more from like the traditional music industry to startups and tech.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like it's pretty rare to like know, like to be able to trace what you do today all the way back to like, oh, when I was a teenager, I knew that this was what I wanted to do.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: I'm curious, like, were there ever moments where somebody in your life was like, hey, have you thought about like that's it, maybe have you thought about doing something different?
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_02: Or like did you ever feel pressure to like change paths or like focus on something different?
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_02: Or do you always remember just feeling really certain?
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_04: I always remember feeling certain.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_04: And and I guess part of that is luck.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but part of it I think too is anything is interesting if you go deep enough.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_04: Like if you if you just pick a thing and you're like, I'm gonna work on that problem, you can infinitely fall in love with that problem.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and so yeah, I attribute it to I was lucky, I was 15, 16, and I was like, this is what I want to work on.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_04: But then there's also some persistence required that's like I'm just gonna keep, okay, the first thing I tried to do didn't work, second thing didn't work, the third thing worked a little, and then the fourth thing with Patreon, which we'll probably get into, like seemed to finally I wasn't planning on talking about Patreon.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, okay, okay, forget it then.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_04: But yeah, yeah, like my fourth swing at the problem finally felt like, okay, we're sending billions of dollars to artists, and this is what I always wanted.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, talk to me about like that third one where it was like you were on your third strike and you were like, man, this still isn't it for me.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_02: Was there doubt?
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: Was there a moment of like maybe I should do something different?
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_02: Or and maybe you can parlay that into the story of how you kind of ended up at Patreon.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_04: Totally.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so swing one was a record label, swing two was uh the publishing, swing three was stage it, which was doing live streaming concerts for artists and creators.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_04: Yep.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_02: And what year are we in?
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_04: This would be like 2010-ish, probably.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_04: So like very early, like right now, the concept of live streaming monetized with a chat and tips is like, what do you mean?
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_04: You could like use lovable and build that in 30 seconds.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_04: But like in 2010, this was like revolutionary.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_04: This is when people were emailing us saying, hey, I'm not I don't feel comfortable giving my credit card, you know, to like an online company.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, exactly.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but I learned a couple of things in my time at Stage It.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, maybe I should talk about like how I got connected to them.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_04: It was a college speaker that came to our class, one of our classes, a guest lecturer, and I think maybe he was working at Live Nation or something, and he mentioned, hey, my buddy is starting this company that's gonna be online concerts.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like sitting in the back of this class.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_04: I almost didn't go to the class because it was like 8:30 at night or something, and I was like on the fence about if I would attend.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_04: And life has this like funny way of, you know.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_04: But um, at the end of the class, he finishes, and when he mentioned online concerts, I was like, I think that's gonna be a thing.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_04: Like you have a little I had a little light bulb moment of like that seems like it would make sense that we would eventually like watch some stuff from these laptops, and like wouldn't be the same maybe as going to the venue, but it would certainly be cool.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, so then he finishes the guest lecture, and then there's like a line of students up there waiting to talk to the guy, probably to thank him or network or do the do the right college thing, right?
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_04: And then I'm sitting at my desk and I'm like, should I wait in that line?
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_04: Like, it's you know, now it's probably 9:30, 10 at night, there's 12 kids in front of me.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_04: And I go, you know what?
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_04: I'm gonna do it.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_04: I wanna drop off my email.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_04: I wanna let him know that if that guy wants help building that company, it seems really interesting.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_04: And so, like, I did the thing, I waited in line, my 30 minutes.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_04: I got up there, I said, Can I just leave you with my email?
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_04: I think online it this was not about like what he talked about, it was just like one thing he mentioned.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_04: So maybe I was different than what the other kids were focused on.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_04: But I said, That company your friend's starting, like, could I get in touch with them?
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_04: Because I think online concerts sound really interesting.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_04: It's that the intersection of tech and music.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_04: And um, I left my email, and sure enough, I like heard from the CEO that was starting that company in an apartment.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_04: And uh, that's how I got my first job, like in tech and in startups and in music.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, this guy's gonna pay me whatever it was, eight or nine bucks an hour to like work on this thing.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_04: Like, I was like, I would do this for free.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_04: This is amazing.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_04: It was like a first paycheck in the industry or um or second, it was really early.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_04: But um, yeah, I guess the lesson there for me was like, it is so important to just put in the extra 25% effort, you know, and just like do the thing the other kids aren't doing.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe there was 70 kids in the class and 10 of them went up to introduce themselves and network, and maybe a few of us asked about that other company that was being started.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_04: And I attribute like my career would have been so much different if I didn't attend that class, you know, and then if I didn't go up to that professor and introduce myself, so or that guest lecturer.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_02: So and then how did you end up at Patreon after that?
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so one of the artists using Stage It was this guy named Jack Conti, who played in this band Pomplamous, and I was his like artist relations representative or something at some point before I uh I ended up taking on more jobs at Stage It.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_04: I kind of um volunteered for whatever it was that the company needed.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_04: We had no marketing team, we had to like make one, we had no finance department, we had to make one, we had to like make financial statements, and we had no legal team, we had to build one, and customer support, and I just kind of raised my hand and said, I'll try to figure out.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_04: And all these teams You were that person, I was that person, you know.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and so, anyways, um when I was at Stage It and I was there a couple years, and we sent a few million dollars to artists and creators.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_04: Now I learned a couple things at Stage It and then I'll I'll speak to how I got connected to Patreon.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_04: But I learned at Stage It like, wow, you could have fun at work.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_04: Like it was just a bunch of youngsters in an apartment in LA.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_04: In LA down on Beverly, like making prank video.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_04: You know, we're like, we need to launch this feature and make like a video about it.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_04: And like we like, okay, who has the craziest idea of like something funny and stupid that we could do?
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_04: And like that would get approved because it was just us, you know.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_02: You were also the approvers.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_04: The big problem, we were the creative brainstorming team and also controlled the budget on the age 22.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_02: Probably not the right setup.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, exactly.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so I learned that work could be fun.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_04: And then also what I learned was um people would give money to artists and creators if you made it easy enough.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_04: There was like a desire out there innate in people to give to artists.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe it was just the business models and the systems and the companies and the structures were not set up to like let that money flow smoothly.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_04: But if you could make that happen, I was seeing people tip 10 bucks, 50 bucks, 100 bucks.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_04: I would see an artist with 3,000 followers online make like$4,000 in an online web stream, you know, from their backyard.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_04: So I was like, okay, there's something here like other people like me want to give to artists and creators.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_04: And so you can imagine when I got the phone call from Jack, where he was like, I want to build something similar to Stage It, but what if I could do like a monthly show or like a season pass?
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_04: What if these things could be recurring?
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_04: He started doing like one show a month and building it into a club, and he was like, Well, I'd love to be able to send photos to my fans and write little posts to them.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_04: And what if I could, you know, send them exclusive content, like things that Stage It couldn't do?
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_04: So we had this broader vision.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_04: And originally I wasn't gonna go join Patreon because I was like, I had just built up this team at Stage It, and maybe it was 30 or 40 people at the time and um in the US and some people overseas.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, I don't know, I just built this whole thing.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_04: Like I had no intention of leaving, but a couple things happened.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_04: One, I started thinking, well, maybe this Patreon thing could help more than just musicians.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_04: Like there's these new things called podcasts that were like starting in 2011 or 12, you know.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and there were writers and filmmakers and illustrators, and I thought, wow, maybe I could have more positive impact on this problem if I moved from stage it, which was helping musicians, to musicians plus all the other artists.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_04: And then also I just spent more time with Jack.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_04: And I found him to be the most inspiring, compassionate, hardworking, ambitious, creative, yeah, honest person.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_04: I felt like I describe it as like a work soulmate.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_04: Like I he was like, he's like, Tyler, I'm not very good with like email.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, Do you know what a CRM is?
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_04: I love CRM.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_04: A ticketing support, or like the whole software stack of like a startup.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_04: He was a he's a musician, he's an artist.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_04: He's like, I don't know any of those things.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, okay, you gotta use this, you gotta use that, you gotta try this.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: And so you started by just giving him some free advice.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, we would talk on the phone about just as a friend tech and also like philosophical conversations about the intersection of capitalism and art and how does it all work?
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_04: And I was just like, I love this dude, like he's amazing.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_04: So the more time I spent with him, ultimately, it was like, okay, I'm gonna buy a one-way ticket up to San Francisco.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_04: And and uh yeah, then I spent 10 years like not looking back, just yeah, working with him.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: I love how you dove into some of that stuff because I think so many people that I talk to are often find themselves at that kind of crossroads sometimes where they're like, I've been at this thing, I've poured so much into whatever it is that they've been doing, whether it's maybe they built up their own business or they've been an employee at a company.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: This was me at Pinterest.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: I was there for five years, I was like so embedded in that world and I couldn't, it was safe and it I knew I was good at it, and I was like having a good, like there was a certainty associated with it.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_02: And then there's this other thing that the universe drops in your lap at some point that feels uncertain but but gravitational.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I think like you're perfectly describing that scenario, which is you were sitting on something where you that you knew you could do, and then there was this gravitational pull towards this other thing.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I think you did a really nice job.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_02: The two sort of levers I heard that you kind of keyed in on were the opportunity to make more impact.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_02: And the opportunity to work with someone that you saw a lot of value in working with.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: Is that fair in terms of like those were the things that pulled you?
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_04: 100%.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, those were the right things that you're gonna do.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't money or it wasn't.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_04: No, there was no money.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_04: There was no money.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_04: There was no money in either job.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_04: It's like it's it's it's the great irony, and um, I'm sure you've seen this, like talking to a bunch of folks, or I'm curious, maybe I should frame this as a question.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_04: Like, the people that I've seen be financially successful or whatever are never the people that were chasing that thing.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_04: It's like, it's almost like um, like I you can't go out of your door, like, I'm gonna go to that bar and find love.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_04: Like if you you can't be that direct about it or it doesn't work.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a very romantic way to paint to paint work.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: Well I think it's true.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, like the all the people that I met in San Francisco and the millionaires and billionaires and and all the people that like hit that financial success, they were not uh, they were not going after that.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_04: That would not be enough of a motivator to actually get you to be able to create that.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_04: So, anyways, no, sorry, I went off on a tangent, we could talk about that later.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_04: But it wasn't money.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_04: I think stage it had like more revenue at the time, even than when Patreon was getting started, you know.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_04: So it was like, it was actually like, am I gonna go to a less stable thing?
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_04: But no, the the people are are everything.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, if Jack and co-founder Sam, like if they can't figure it out, these like compassionate, smart, you know, dudes who want to do things the right way, treat people well.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_04: Um if they can't figure out this problem, no one can.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_04: So and it's funny the you mentioned people and mission, and also like that's what kept me there for 10 years.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_04: The same thing that initially drew me there was like, yeah, I don't know, we're like helping a lot of artists and creators, and I admire the people that I'm in these meetings with.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_04: They seem brilliant and I'm learning and I'm absorbing and you were enjoying yourself.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_04: I'm enjoying and I want to be more like them.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_04: Um so yeah, yeah, people and mission is what I kind of chased there.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, let's let's talk about the 10 years.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_02: So you locked in for 10 years and you you stayed in one place with one team and one founder and one project.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_02: Tell me why.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: Tell me, um, looking back, is there anything you would have done differently?
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I don't know.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: I just want to hear about the those 10 years and how they felt for you.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_04: Um there was so much to learn because when you're fortunate enough to have a company that is growing and succeeding in the in the mission, right?
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and helping more people every year, there's new problems, you know.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_04: And so I never felt like it got stale or that I was stuck.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_04: There was new teams to build, there were new products to build, there were new services, there were new.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_04: Um I worked a lot with the risk-facing teams, there were new risks, you know, um, all the time.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_04: So it it kept it really interesting.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_04: But um I'll I'll go back to the the people.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_04: And I and I think my advice for people, if we're giving advice, I want to be really careful always.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_04: You're sharing your perspective.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_04: My experience.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_04: My perspective has been when people think about where they want to work, I think they underrate like how important it is to just choose the people you admire most, you know?
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_04: Because we really are like, they say you're like the five people you spend the most amount of time with, right?
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_04: Um and the same thing is true as well.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_04: However many hours you're spending a day on work, like you're gonna become like them.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_02: And so um or at least be heavily influenced in how you feel and how you would see the world and what you think is possible and that kind of stuff.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_04: Totally.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_04: And the people that we were hiring, I was like, I want to be more like you, you know.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and and I found myself being like, Oh, I'll take this from that person and this from that, okay.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe I'll leave that from, you know.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_04: No.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_04: But um, yeah, it was I was with people that I admired and I respected them and I cared for them a lot.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_04: And uh we used to call them uh my our phrase was kind killers when like thinking about who you want to work with and build with.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_04: Um they have to have a heart of gold, and they also have to be beasts, beasts, yeah, just focused on excellence, you know, um just in love with the craft, in love with chasing excellence for the sake of chasing excellence.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_04: And like I looked up in my meetings and in these exec rooms and in these, you know, in all the meetings that I was in with all these wonderful teammates, and I was like, these are kind killers, man.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_04: Like they're they're hearts of gold, and also they want to move the needle for artists and creators, and they're gonna like come hell or high water, they're gonna make it happen.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_04: And like when you when you have those things, my story is very much one of like all the frameworks and articles and books that you read are like you want to have the people and the mission and the competency.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_04: Like I had all those things, and so I was I was there for 10 years.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and as you rose there, and safe to describe you as kind of Jack's right hand.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: Is that fair?
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_02: Hi Jack.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_02: Hey Jack.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um as you rose, I'm sure other people.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe his left hand on days where I got it wrong.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_04: I was his left foot.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_04: Left foot man.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_02: But uh as you sort of rose in the company, and I'm sure you had a lot of people rolling into you and like big teams and things like that.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I I have to imagine other opportunities presented themselves to you externally, people coming to you and saying, Hey, do you want to come be COO at this company?
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, do you want to come be uh VC at this fund, whatever it might be?
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_02: What were your sort of like uh how would you describe those moments for you?
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like what happened for you when that happened?
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_04: Of course, it feels nice.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_04: You know, it's nice to receive those opportunities.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_04: But like ultimately, you'd have one conversation, or you'd even just like look up the team or their interviews or whatever, and you'd be like, it just goes back to the people for me.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_04: It was like, there's nothing that would pull me away from the people, and also this is the mission I've been focused on since I was 16 years old.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_02: So you kind of hit that like cross-section jackpot so early.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_04: Lucky I I hit that jackpot so early.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and yeah, there was there was not really an opportunity that I gave a close look to because you pay me millions of dollars a year, but I'm not gonna like sell your backpack, you know.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_04: Like I just it's like not gonna, it's not gonna move the needle for me, you know.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and then what about like sort of external perception of you and your career?
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: Was that something that especially as like personal brands started to become like how did you think about that as you became more senior?
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_02: You were always in a very internal facing role.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_02: Did you ever feel like, like I think a lot of people today especially feel a pressure to be known or to be uh, you know, have a following or to have a presence?
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_02: Like now that you are kind of on the looking back at the a bulk of your career, like does that feel like it sh it was overinflated?
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: Did you ever feel a pressure to do that?
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_04: Like, I think I've always I'm curious how you think about this.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_04: So I'm gonna I'm gonna toss it back to you because I have conflicting views.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_04: Like I almost feel like maybe my story is not what I would advise someone else to think about.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_04: But like for me, I was always focused on doing good versus like talking about doing good or being perceived as doing good.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_04: Like my day-to-day was trying to move hundreds of millions and billions of dollars from people who had money and wanted to get to get to artists and creators, and I just wanted to make that flow as smooth as possible.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_04: And I wanted artists to be able to make a living doing what they loved.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_04: Um, that was my motivator.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_04: It was not to like be a tech executive and be looked up to and admired for different like I just wanted the problem to get solved.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_04: Um so so I don't do a lot of, you know, you're a friend of mine and I want to be here, but I don't do a lot of the I don't do a lot of.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_02: I actually hope.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, no, no.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm having a great time.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um no, no, I'm having so much fun.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_04: I uh I was focused, I was really focused on trying to make the business work.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_04: And so I I I did not do a lot of like um brand building for myself.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_04: I I just wanted Patreon to work out and do well.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_04: Um But where I would like put it back to you is I would think it is smart to do some of that stuff.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_04: Like if you're if you're an up, if you're an up-and-comer, like investing in your brand, making content about um what you're working on, trying to help others by making stuff and help helping that guide their decisions.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_04: That feels really important.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_04: And I like I would recommend people do some of that stuff.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_02: I think it is anything that you can do to help the the broader public understand what you care about, what you do, what you spend your time on, what you can be helpful with is a good long-term investment in your career because that's when you're expanding your surface area for opportunity, right?
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_02: But the more people know who you are and what you are capable of, the more likely they are to think of you when things happen.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_02: And so that I think is, and I I've been like deep in my own thoughts while you've been talking about how like I think all of this is so related to sort of long-term goals for people of like what do you want for your life in 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years?
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like careers are so long, lives are so long.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I think you had a specific like impact and mission were so critical to you that I think it from what I know from just being friends with you, but also from this conversation, is that it you weren't like, I gotta be set up to be financially good by 35.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_02: Like that wasn't, but for some people, depending on their circumstances or where they come from, that is a huge priority.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: And so everything you do should be oriented around that.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas for you, you were in a position where you were like, my goal in the next 15 to 20 years is to like really make a meaningfully, meaningful positive impact in this space.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_02: And it feels like you really oriented everything you did toward maximum impact on artists.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_02: Is that fair?
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_04: That's totally fair to say.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, okay, so looking back, you're not done, but looking back on these first 20 years of work.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_04: Oh gosh.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_04: Sorry, are we gonna play?
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_02: I know it's scary.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_04: This is really scary.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_02: I'm coming up on 20.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_04: Do I get to count my first job?
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_04: I was sweeping hair in a hair salon at like age 10.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, yeah.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_04: So if that's the case, no, no.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, we don't have to put a number on it, but this first chunk.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I've 15 to 10.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_04: Your first era.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, first.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_02: Looking at your first era of work, uh, is there anything that is like, like, how do you feel about it?
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_02: Are you proud?
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_02: Is there anything that's like funny to you?
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_02: Is there anything you maybe would have done differently with everything you know now?
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_04: Great question.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I I feel proud of the impact that we've had for artists and creators.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_04: And I I think Patreon's just getting started, and there's like so much more positive impact that they can do on that problem.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so I think when I look back, like that's what I'm most proud of, is I set out to have this impact and we we did okay there.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um I say you did more than okay.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_04: Funny, okay.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_04: What's funny?
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_04: Well there's something funny happening in the world right now with like with AI and this like absolute insane transformation that we're going through.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_04: I think what I think is funny is we've spent so much time or I've spent so much time trying to build a mental model of how the world works and how I should work within it.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_04: Like what I mean by that is like what it takes to be successful.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_04: And like have these principles of like hard work and exceed expectations and and be kind to people and and all these things.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_04: And I kind of you I used to feel like, well, that would be enough if you followed that playbook.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_04: Like I promise you it will work out for you.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_04: But so much is being uprooted underneath our feet that um there's part of me that's like, oh, life is very funny, and that the second you start to feel like maybe you're understanding how the world works, you like maybe have a hang of it, and like maybe that you might be able to start to give advice to some people on how to navigate their careers.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, okay, well, all that's out the door.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like absolutely back at zero.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that I I find that that's um ironic and interesting.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_02: Same.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, and then for the folks who don't know you personally, like like me, what are you up to now?
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_02: And like what are you thinking about doing moving forward?
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_02: You left Patreon.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_02: You were able to have a bit of an exit there and and sort of start this new era of life.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what is what does looking forward feel like and look like for you?
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_04: Right now, I'm investing in founders and then also artists.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_04: There's there's some they're very similar in many ways.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_04: Um for me, I've always greatly admired people who are like, you see this world that we have here?
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_04: It could be a little better.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_04: Like it could be better with this product or with this service.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_04: We could make things more joyful, or an artist who's like, I have this idea, and I think it will make people chuckle or smile or feel something.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_04: And like that zero to one, I'm gonna push like hell to make the world a little better.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_04: I just admire that so much.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and and I respect it so much, and I want those people to thrive so much.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_04: And so, yeah, my life is like trying to find founders and creators who want to build cool shit that is good for the world and makes people's lives easier or better.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_04: And I give them money and try to pass on some wisdom or advice or knowledge, or or just like, here's all the mistakes I've made.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_04: I've made mistakes doing it three times this way, I've tried it this way and I've done it wrong.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_04: This time it worked, but I'm not sure why.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_04: And I just try and like be as helpful as I can to those people to help their dreams come true.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_02: And are you still rooted in impact as your goal now, or is there something more intrinsic that you've switched to?
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_04: I I think no, I think it's still like impact on a big macro level at the 30,000-foot view, but now I'm also able to focus on impact at a lower altitude of just like helping individual people.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_04: Like I sometimes you want the company to win because you're like, oh, this is gonna help a lot of users or a lot of people or whatever.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_04: And sometimes I'm like, I just want Jenny to win.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_04: You know, like she's just so dialed in and so excellent, and I just want her dream to come true.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_04: Um, she deserves it.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_04: And so maybe maybe in that way, that's a little bit different than Patreon, is like I can focus a little bit more on like I measure my weeks and my productivity in terms of like how many people called me and asked to think through something with me.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_04: If that number is like high, I feel like good week.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_04: If it's low, I'm like, what can I be doing?
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_04: I gotta get on Mallory's podcast to like get more of those phone calls because I wanna I wanna help more people.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody call Tyler, so he's he's feeling good.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, my cell phone number will be at the end in the description on YouTube.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_02: I um I've gone through like I think there's something with people who worked in tech in the 2010s too, where we were so conditioned around scale of impact.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like that was just all we talked about for so long.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_02: Of like the only successes were huge, massive millions and millions and millions of users and numbers.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I've had to, I talk about this in therapy a lot.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_02: I've had to retrain myself to value in the world.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_02: Is this therapy, by the way, for you?
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_03: I'm giving Ben Murray plus$200.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, this is therapy for me.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_02: So I'll pay you.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think retraining that there smaller numbers of positive impact is still so important to our world and to it feels good, and it is like part of being a human in this universe, you know?
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_02: But we got a little messed up having been in that, like in that world where if it's not millions of people, it doesn't feel worth it.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_02: And like it's not true.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: That's just blatantly not uh correct like position there.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_04: I strongly agree.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_04: I remember my coach, somewhat tangential, but my coach told me when I was like thinking about these decisions and and impact big, impact small, people, you know, artists.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_04: Um he told me, uh, and this is Ed Batista.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_04: I was so privileged to be able to have him as my coach.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_04: He's a Stanford guy and a brilliant writer and brilliant person.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but he said, Tyler, ambition doesn't just move up and down, it moves left and right also.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_04: And like that got me comfortable thinking, like, that's right, I could still, it's not like I'm not ambitious if I don't work on the Patreon mission anymore.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_04: You know, like there was part of me that was like, am I not ambitious enough?
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_04: Do I not have the drive I used to have?
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_04: He's like, no, no, you can just point drive towards other things, you know, um personal, you know, personal life things or friendships or you know, helping individual founders, et cetera.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_04: Amazing.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_02: A huge thank you to my friends at Granola for sponsoring the Goodwork Talk Show.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_02: I started using Granola as just a note taker, but now I use it for every type of meeting and conversation from quick check-ins to creative collaborations and everything in between.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_02: Granola is an AI notepad that transcribes meetings, whether online or in person, and it creates amazing summaries that you can chat with and you can ask follow-up questions to well after the meeting is over.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_02: As a busy person with a full-time job and a couple of side projects, I truly couldn't keep track of all of it without Granola.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_02: It helps me stay focused and stay present while still capturing all the details and the important to-dos in the background.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_02: I even used it on all of these episodes, so you'll be able to check the notes for each show and chat with them just like you were sitting here with us.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_02: Cranola also has features for following up and for drafting to-do lists.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_02: It definitely saves me from dropping balls and it helps me do what I say I'll do.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_02: The best way to check it out is to try it in your next meeting.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_02: To read the summary of today's show and chat with that summary, you can visit granola.ai slash goodwork.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_02: And if you're a new granola user, you'll get three months free.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_02: Again, that's granola.ai slash goodwork.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, okay, we're gonna pause and we're gonna do the granola question.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_04: I'm excited to see what artificial intelligence has in store for me.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_02: What have you learned about yourself in this post-Patreon chapter that's surprised you?
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_04: Ooh.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_04: One of my biggest beliefs in life is it's like a phrase I go to over and over in my head is pick your hard.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_04: Like everything is hard.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_04: And life is a series of trade-offs.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_04: And maybe I shouldn't have been surprised by this, but now I have like freedom and time and flexibility.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_04: And you know what I miss?
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_04: Structure.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_04: Structure, teams, deep intellectual debate, fighting with people, trying to get to the truth of something.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_04: All the stuff he used to come home and be like, I used to go and be like, my brain's exhausted.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_04: It's just like 10 out of 10 debate every 30 minutes for 10 hours a day, or more than that.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_04: Um and then, you know, it's like grass is always greener thing.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_04: But there's some lessons in life that you can like read about it a hundred times and until you just live it, you know.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so so that surprised me, I think, is how much I miss the structure.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_04: When you're on your own, it's like, hey, buddy, you gotta figure this out.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_04: You know, welcome to Tuesday.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_04: What do you got?
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_04: What are you gonna do?
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_04: Tuesday.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_04: Hey, no one's no one's calling you, Tyler, for help.
• 35:48
  unknown: No.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_04: Um so that's been that's been surprising and a change.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_04: And I think like, I think the message there is just pick your trade-offs.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_04: Every career decision, oh, okay, you pick the thing that has this, it's not gonna have that.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_04: And like be prepared for those trade-offs, name them, think deeply about them, so that when they come, they're less frustrating, you know, because you're like, oh, I made this decision to join company A instead of B.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_04: I knew it was earlier stage, so I knew chaos would be higher.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_04: Here it is, here's the chaos.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_04: Here it is, here's the chaos, and like embrace it and love it.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_02: That reminds me too.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure this resonates with you.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_02: I never take my own advice.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I can give people, I could tell them, like, yeah, they're pick your heart.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_02: Anything is, you know, whatever.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: But then when it happens to me, I'm like, oh my, what is this?
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_02: And so like that's very normal too, I think.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm sure you're encountering that now.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_04: And I have the same struggle, career struggle.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like things you've been telling founders for 10 years because they also don't have structure.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_02: Now you're having to tell yourself and like listen to your own brain.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_04: Totally.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_04: And like the great irony of it is like here I am on this podcast, you know, trying to help people navigate career decisions or choose what they want to do or how to have good, meaningful work.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_04: And then like I go home at night and I'm like, am I doing the right thing?
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_04: Like, should I go back to being an operator?
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_04: Like brains are so funny.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's just this is the constant thing.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_04: And going back to Ed Batista, my coach, he's like, Tyler, let me tell you something.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_04: As I'm like thinking through when I was thinking through these decisions, he's like, every investor I work with wants to be an operator.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_04: And every operator wants to be an investor.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_04: And like till the end of time, that will Around and around we go.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_04: And around and around we go.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_02: Speaking of Ed, actually, I was gonna ask you.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_02: It sounds like you have a deep admiration for Ed and respect.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_02: How did you get him to be your coach?
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I imagine not he doesn't coach everybody.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what did that sort of?
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_02: I think it could be helpful for people to hear how one might approach somebody that they really look up to to work with them or to get input from them or to involve them in something.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what would you say?
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_04: A co-worker had him as a professor at some point and introduced us.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_04: But that wasn't enough.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_02: Why did they introduce you?
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_02: Did you ask?
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_04: I probably, yeah.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_04: I think I was in the market.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_04: I had had a different executive coach, and sometimes it's good to change coaches every couple years, you know, just shift your perspective, open up your mindset.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_04: Um so we got introduced, but of course he had some giant wait list and wasn't taking on new clients or something.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_04: And like, I think I probably wrote a really thoughtful email that was like, here's specifically what I'm trying to get at, here's the challenge.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_04: You're one of the best in the world at this.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_04: I'd be so honored and grateful if you would just give me a shot.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_04: And like, yeah, the it goes back to the theme we've been talking about all day, which is like if you want extraordinary outcomes in your life, be extraordinary.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_04: You know, Charlie Munger would say, You want to find a great partner, be someone worthy of finding a great partner.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_04: Do you want an excellent job and career?
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_04: Become the person that would be deserving of having an excellent job and career.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_04: And so um I try, yeah, maybe I'm like painting myself as like, oh, I'm so heroic that I got Ed as my coach, but it was just like go above and beyond.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_04: If everyone else is like getting blocked and is like, oh, he has a wait list, he's not gonna coach me.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_04: Like, well, what would make someone want to coach you?
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, put yourself in their shoes and imagine what that could be.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe a really thoughtful note, you know, that like shows that you did your research and read their all their posts and right.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_02: That was gonna be my point is that coming from the side of like a hiring, like you've hired many people, you've had people go in above and beyond to get roles or to work with you or whatever it might be.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_02: You don't have it doesn't have to be that extraordinary either.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you don't have to go above and so far above and beyond that, like it's no one's ever seen or heard of what you do.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_02: It is it sometimes just that like thoughtful, especially today when so much is written by AI, like just really showing up as a human being and like relating to another human being and be like, this is why I want to do this, this is what I mean, this is like who I am as a person.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like anything small like that, it it again, it doesn't have to be extraordinary.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_02: It is extraordinary to decide to take do that follow-up or to do that extra five percent.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_04: A thousand percent.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, look at look at the story we talked about earlier.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_04: Like, how like I went to the 8:30 class.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_04: I stayed for the whole time.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_04: These are you and I think in sales funnels, right?
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like I went to the why are we that way?
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_04: Apologies.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I like that about us.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: Apologies.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_04: We're working on it with our coaches.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_04: Went to the class, stayed for the whole class, went, got in line afterwards, gave the email, sent a follow-up once connected.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_04: And like my whole career hinged on just like a few small decisions that maybe other people wouldn't have made, you know?
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_04: Like I always think about this too, and I just love the point you made, so I'm just doubling down on it.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_04: But like, please, how many people are gonna read the book?
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_04: Or how many people are gonna buy the book?
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_04: How many people are gonna read the book?
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_04: How many people are gonna finish the book?
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_04: And then how many people are gonna like write a thank you note to the author?
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_04: And then how many people are gonna actually go take action on that book?
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_04: You know, like the people drop off, and all you have to do is like not drop off.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, especially in that thing, in that area.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I I don't think either of us are saying you have to do extra 5% everywhere in your life, because we both know that that is completely unsustainable.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_02: Totally.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_02: But if you can do the work to decide what small slice of your of life or of interest or of focus area where you are really gonna overcommit, whether it's a sport, whether it's a topic of interest, whether it's a role, whether it's an industry, whatever it is, like, and then you're kind of relentless about that, it almost becomes a swings at bat thing, I think, where if you continuously do that extra 5%, something hits.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's just kind of inevitable at that point.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_02: But you have to have the persistence to keep showing.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_02: Because it's not gonna be the first time or the second time.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_04: No, no.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_02: You know, but it might be the fifth time.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's not totally gonna, it doesn't have to be the 200th time.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_04: It was for me.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it was like the fourth, the fourth thing worked.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um okay, I'm really curious going from uh having a very defined role at Patreon, like you were the guy at Patreon.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_04: Was it that defined?
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_04: It didn't feel very definitely.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_04: No, no, no.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_04: I I know what you mean.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_02: More like socially.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_02: Like everyone knew who you like, they knew you, they knew what they could go to you for, they knew why you were there.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_02: Like there was no ambiguity in like why someone should listen to you.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_04: Some of my direct reports might not have known why I was there if you asked them from their point of view.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_02: That's fair.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_02: But now you're in a much more fluid path of like you're constantly having to kind of, I imagine, explain like why you're on a call or what your goal is or what you're trying to accomplish.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what have you learned from that transition?
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_04: That's such a great question.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_04: It has been funky.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_04: You know, before I was like, I'm tired, you know, you shake someone's head, I'm tired, this is what I do, this is what I'm working on, and now it's like I don't have a very good answer.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, I'm just following my curiosity.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_04: And I feel blessed to be able to like get on a call and I don't have to have this framework.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_04: I've, you know, I was framework overload for so many years.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_04: That now I'm just like, I don't know.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_04: I talk to someone and I'm like, do I like them?
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_04: Do I admire them?
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_04: Do I think their thing is good for the world?
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_04: And do I want to pick up the phone when they call?
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_02: To me, it still feels like you have a very specific.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_02: You're like, I am investing in founders who are currently creating positive impact, and that creates a really clear role for you in those interactions.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_02: But it probably doesn't feel as clear to you.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_04: I guess, yeah, maybe when I compare myself to like other venture capitalists who are like, I have this thesis about the AI infrastructure layer.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm meeting everyone where, you know, like I don't feel as focused as that, but I'm trying to like bask in the chapter that is less focused than I'm used to, you know.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think that's a challenge that a lot of people I think face in their maybe second 10 years of their career, where they're going from sort of having these very clear jobs to then being more generalist or taking on leadership roles or going and starting their own business or something like that.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think I'm always curious about how how people like you kind of navigate that.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_02: And also if you think that.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: That specificity is really as important as people say it is.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I think, you know, people are always like, have your one-liner, like niche down, that kind of thing.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_02: But I tend to think that if if you can get really clear on your values and your like um your strengths, then it doesn't actually have to be so specific.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_04: I like that.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_04: I'd have to think about that longer.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_04: Like uh I think it goes back to the trade-off thing where like you can have a more ambiguous career and like that has a bunch of pros and cons, like, or you could go more focused and just know the trade-offs, know what you're entering into.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_02: What types of careers have you admired along the way?
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like, have you ever tried?
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm always very interested in this idea of trying to emulate or like having a role model or like looking to someone who you're like, man, their career is so cool.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_02: I want to do that.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_02: Did you do you feel like you had that along the way?
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_04: I didn't have people that I was like exactly like I want that, I want to be them.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_04: I had a lot of people who were so helpful to me early on, though.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_04: I moved up to San Francisco.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_04: I was like 21 or 22 or something, and we had just raised a little bit of venture capital for Patreon, and I was like, okay, I did this at stage it, but like this is gonna, I knew this was gonna be a new scale of things.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_04: You know, I just felt like we were gonna take a really big swing.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_04: And I went to our VCs and I said, we're gonna take a big swing.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know everything I need to know.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_04: I'm in new territory.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_04: I didn't grow up with parents in tech.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_04: Like I didn't know how like equity worked.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_04: I didn't even know you got equity for like joining a company, you know.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_04: Um back to the like focus on the focus on the impact thing.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and I said, Would you mind connecting me to people in San Francisco that have done this, what I'm about to do?
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_04: And these guys, like in their late 30s, early 40s, they like got lunch with me, and I was able to ask all my questions.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_04: And to this day, I'm so grateful that they did that.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_04: And it's one of the things for all that tech we need to improve and and that we get wrong, and there's there's a handful of things, but my god, one of the best things about the tech industry to me is like people pay it forward.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, but you have to ask.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_04: You have to ask.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, you have to ask, but like these these folks met with me and just gave me their time.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_04: And they were like, I'll answer any questions, call me anytime.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_04: I was like, this is amazing.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_04: Like, why are you doing this for me?
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and it's funny, they probably don't never thought about that conversation again, and you probably think about those conversations all the time.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_02: There's always this imbalance of when you're helping someone else, often it doesn't feel like a big thing, but it can be such a massive leverer for that other person.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_04: Sam Parker, Marshall New, Minnie Ingersoll, like all these COOs that I just wanted to name that just were like, yeah, come over, come come to dinner, come to lunch.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_04: What questions do you have?
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_04: And like, and and a big part of my wanting to like pass on, you know, both the money and the time back is like people did it for me.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_04: People gave us money so that I could try and fulfill my dream to help artists, you know.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_04: And I want to send it back down too, both in time and in dollars.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_02: And we talked about mentors and coaches, would love your two-liner on how you think you already indicated uh hesitancy about advice, but I'm curious in in today's sort of landscape of media and content and podcasts and whatever, like how would you, if somebody was like, hey, where should I be trying to get advice on my career?
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what would you say?
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, there's no right answer here.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_04: Um my strong point of view would be when someone's choosing a job, there's two things.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_04: I think there's like two big things to look out for.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_04: One is uh the competency of the people.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_04: Like you like talked about, you will become who you work with.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_04: And like, I don't care if you're, let's say you're in your 20s, you're getting your first job, second, third job, like I don't care if one job offers you 40k or 150k.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_04: If it was my best friend, and they were like, what job should I take?
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_04: This has these trade-offs, this has those trade-offs, this one's gonna pay me three times the amount.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_04: I would be like, where are the people the most excellent?
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_04: I promise you that will maximize your career returns.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_04: You know, like I promise you over a 40-year period, you'll make more money.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_04: Doesn't matter what the salary or equity offer is, go where the people are the most excellent, where the interview was the most intense in hardcore, where they're vetting for A plus players, because you just want to be in those rooms.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_04: If you're in a room with C, B, and C players, it is so wildly hard to like escape that trap and get exposure.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_04: Because the way we learn is exposure, right?
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_04: You just like have to see excellence to try to become it.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_04: And if you're not even in the room, if you're not even witnessing it, you just have no chance.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_04: So, so please, like when you're thinking about where to work, whether it's a coffee shop or like a tech company, yeah.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_04: It's like where are the people the most excellent?
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_02: I do think that applies across any industry.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_02: You think about hospitality, like working somewhere that really is going above and beyond around the idea of unreasonable hospitality and that kind of like you are going to become more excellent as a result and just the networking of it all.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_02: I fell into it at Pinterest.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_02: You were intentional about it with Patreon, but the best thing I ever did for my career was join Pinterest that was full of excellent, excellent people that would go on to do a swath of crazy things that I would have the pleasure to sort of go along with in formal or informal ways.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_04: Totally.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_04: Um a couple of other things on this, if we could just stay on the topic for just one second.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_04: I think Frank Slootman says this really well, really admired CEO.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_04: Um, he says when you're picking a place to work, think of it like an elevator.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_04: The elevator is either going up, it's staying on the same floor, or the elevator is going down.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_04: And if you can find a company where the elevator is going up, the opportunities are gonna be expanding, right?
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_04: Larger budgets every year, more swings, hiring more people, so more exposure to excellence, like all the positive momentum is building.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_04: If that elevator is going up, so yeah, people should look to the elevator.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_04: Is it going up, staying on the same floor, or going down?
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_04: And they should go where there's the most competent people.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_04: And if you do those things, then the men, the right mentors will cross paths and of course take them to coffee, take them to lunch.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_04: Bring something valuable to the table.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_04: Don't be the standard, don't show up with your six AI questions, you know, from Chat GPT to like like show that you did your work.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_04: Like you said, be human, like show your vulnerabilities and your errors and your flaws and and let them help you and coach you.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you I think are very, very lucky to have worked in an industry that you loved.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_02: Like you had an inherent error from early childhood love of the music industry and of the creative industries.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_02: I think there's always discourse around whether you should love what, like quote unquote love what you do, or you know, if you love what you do, you won't work a day in your life, that kind of thing.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_02: What do you think about that sort of piece of advice?
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_02: Like, do you think people should try to match up uh mission and fulfillment with work, or are there ways to kind of navigate a career without ha needing that or having that?
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_04: I'd like you to answer it first.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_04: What have you learned about should people follow their passion and work where they love, or is it okay to just be more pragmatic about it all?
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_02: It depends on the stage of career that you're in and your priorities in that season.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_02: I have found myself thinking a lot, reflecting on my own career and kind of thinking about these eras of coming from, you know, I didn't grow up with a family who was well connected in the tech industry or anything like that.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_02: And so really my priority and kind of my first 10 years of working was around network building, legitimacy building, um, really establishing myself as someone that could be trusted.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_02: And then I moved into an era of uh financial, like prioritizing financial stability.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_02: And now I am moving into an era of like purpose-driven um focus.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_02: And like each one was enabled by the previous one.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_02: So like I can now start to turn my attention to like working in industries that I really love and working on um missions that I feel super aligned with because I grounded out for 10 years and got to a place where like financially I can take more risks or I can take a pay cut to work on something without sacrificing my quality of life.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_02: And before that, I couldn't have gotten that money without building legitimacy in the industry.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's so based on where someone is in their career and what they have and what they need.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I think being self-aware and like low ego about that is one of the keys that I try to push people toward is like if you don't have financial stability, financial stability is one of the like core pieces that is going to enable you to make some of the bolder choices and take the risks and work at the mission-aligned company.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_02: And so, like, I always encourage younger people to focus on money and connection because that is going to then care again, careers are so long.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_02: Like you have so many decades to do things you love and create the impact that you want to have.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_02: I've been thinking a lot about legacies lately with so many amazing people passing away recently and what they've left.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_02: And so much of their impact was in the final 30 years of their lives, enabled by the grind, the first 30 years of their lives.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_02: You know, commercial success.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, right, exactly.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_04: Well, that's such a good answer that I think you don't need podcast guests.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_04: You should just have your own podcast and answer all these questions.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, but I'll interview myself.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_04: I I think that's a great answer.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_04: I, and we were talking like off-camera a little bit, that it's so hard to generalize a question like this, but I'll I'll try.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_04: I tend to fall more on the like, yes, follow your passion.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, do the thing you love.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe it's like survivor bias, where like, oh, that was my experience, so everyone else should have that experience.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_04: But a couple of like reasons for that.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_04: One, it's I've always said it's just hard to compete with people who are having fun.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_04: If you love the thing you're doing, you're gonna be on hour 14 before you even look at the clock.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_04: It's like someone who is counting the hours just can't compete with you.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_02: And people want to hang out with people that are having fun.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_04: And people want to hang out with people who are having fun.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_04: So I I think I I do largely say if you were like unsure if you should follow your passion or be like, that will be my hobby and I'll go make money over here.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_04: If you were unsure about that, I would be pushing, tend to push people more towards follow the passion.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_04: Now, that's not an excuse for um not being strategic.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_04: You know, like let's let me paint an example of what I'm trying to say because I'm not articulating it well.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_04: Let's say you love flowers.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_04: There's a million things you could do in flowers.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_04: You could open up a flower shop, you could do flower rentals for events, you could be a short form video creator making beautiful flower presentation.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_04: You could you get the idea.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_04: Like, there's a million things you could do in the space of the thing you love.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_04: And I would say people should be a little strategic about like, well, what does the market need in this area?
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_04: And what are my gifts to the world?
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_04: And how can I capitalize on those?
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_04: And like, is what does one tend to be more commercially successful than others?
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_04: Like, I think I would say the driver should be work on your passion, and the passenger should be like, and also do a little strategy to make sure you like set yourself up for you.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that you don't do something where it's like the chances of making money doing that thing are sub 1%.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_04: And like, why would you do that?
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, okay, the final question that I ask everybody is what does good work mean to you?
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_02: The concept of good work.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_04: Continual learning, surrounded by people with good hearts, and you're making progress.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_04: And I would break progress into three subcomponents.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_04: The company is making progress, the elevator's going up, we're having more positive impact on this mission.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_04: The team that I'm on is making progress.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_04: We're the design team and we're well known and we're humming and we work well cross-functionally, and people admire our work.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_04: And me as an individual, I'm progressing.
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_04: More responsibility, more knowledge, more ownership, um, more connections and networking.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_04: People stay at companies when there's progress on all those dimensions.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_04: And if you look at the glass door like top companies to work at, it's like NVIDIA.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_04: Well, why is it NVIDIA?
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_04: Because NVIDIA's winning as a company.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_04: They're making great progress on their mission.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_04: You know, SpaceX, these like are the companies that are at the top.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_04: But the company's winning, your team is winning and doing good work, and the individuals there are growing and taking on more opportunities on super hard problems, and they probably respect and admire the people that they're with.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_02: Love.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_02: Perfect.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_02: Oh.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_04: That that's how you end all the episodes, right?
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, surprise high five.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, exactly.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for being here.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_04: That was so fun.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.