Latest / The Real News Podcast / He Loved Working in Concrete. Now, He’s Dying from the Chemical Exposure.

Transcript

He Loved Working in Concrete. Now, He’s Dying from the Chemical Exposure. · The Real News Podcast

0:03
Speaker 1: All right.
0:07
Speaker 2: Welcome, everyone, to Working People, a podcast about the lives, jobs, dreams,
0:12
Speaker 2: and struggles of the working class today. My name is
0:16
Speaker 2: Maximilian Alvarez, and today we are in Fort Worth, Texas,
0:20
Speaker 2: and we're talking about a fellow worker named James. As
0:24
Speaker 2: Maven Navarro recently reported in the Fort Worth Star-Telegram, quote,
0:28
Speaker 2: After leaving Oklahoma, James Gardner built a life for himself
0:32
Speaker 2: in Fort Worth.
0:33
Speaker 1: Now he could lose it all. When Gardner walks into doctors.
0:37
Speaker 2: Offices to receive treatment for his terminal liver failure, he
0:40
Speaker 2: has to ask staff to remove all the air fresheners
0:44
Speaker 2: for his skin condition. Gardner has multiple chemical sensitivity, which
0:48
Speaker 2: he says was caused by his time as a concrete
0:51
Speaker 2: specialist working at with two-part epoxy resin. The illness causes
0:55
Speaker 2: him to break out any time he gets around chemicals,
0:58
Speaker 2: air fresheners, perfumes, cleaning supplies, and paint spark allergy flare-ups
1:04
Speaker 2: that can last for 10 days. Concrete work is known
1:07
Speaker 2: to cause health problems. Cement plants can also cause respiratory
1:12
Speaker 2: or cardiovascular issues, according to the Environmental Protection Agency. James
1:17
Speaker 2: Quigg first met Gardner in high school in Oklahoma. where
1:20
Speaker 2: he was given the nickname NDN after enduring bullying for
1:24
Speaker 2: being Native American and kids calling him Indian. A few
1:28
Speaker 2: of Gardner's friends started calling him NDN, or Indian, and
1:31
Speaker 2: it stuck. Now, Quigg started a GoFundMe to help prevent
1:35
Speaker 2: Gardner from losing his house, as he is unable to
1:39
Speaker 2: work and has faced challenges receiving disability. Gardner was denied
1:44
Speaker 2: disability the first two times he applied for it. It
1:47
Speaker 2: wasn't until his third application that he was approved, because
1:50
Speaker 2: of his internal organs.
1:52
Speaker 1: Shutting down, end quote.
1:54
Speaker 2: So to talk about all of this, I am truly
1:56
Speaker 2: grateful to have James Indian Gardner himself and James Quigg,
2:01
Speaker 2: who they have given me permission to call them Indian
2:04
Speaker 2: and Quigg, friends since high school, both here on the
2:07
Speaker 2: show with us today. Thank you guys so much for
2:11
Speaker 2: being here. It is really, really great to be connecting
2:14
Speaker 2: with y'all and My God, I wish we were connecting
2:18
Speaker 2: under less horrifying circumstances, and I'm so sorry that you're
2:22
Speaker 2: going through all of this. And Indian, you know, as
2:25
Speaker 2: much as you're comfortable, I want us to make sure
2:29
Speaker 2: that we focus a good chunk of time today talking
2:32
Speaker 2: about what you're going through now, where things stand now,
2:36
Speaker 2: and what people listening can do to help. But we've got,
2:39
Speaker 2: you know, 50 minutes here, and I really want listeners
2:42
Speaker 2: to get to know you and your lives more.
2:45
Speaker 1: Your friendship, and, you know, all the things that make
2:48
Speaker 1: you you.
2:49
Speaker 2: Not just these horrible people and jobs and systems that
2:54
Speaker 2: have done all this unforgivable damage to you, you know? So, Indian,
3:00
Speaker 2: start us off. Like, tell us the story of you
3:04
Speaker 2: and what brought you to Fort Worth. And then, Quig,
3:07
Speaker 2: hop in and tell us your story and how it
3:09
Speaker 2: intertwines with Indian's.
3:11
Speaker 3: I'll start with the nickname Indian and then I'll go
3:13
Speaker 3: from there. So, As you were saying, back in school,
3:17
Speaker 3: kids were making fun of me and bullying me. And
3:19
Speaker 3: my principal called us into the office in my freshman year.
3:22
Speaker 3: He said, you guys can't call him an Indian anymore.
3:25
Speaker 3: You're being racist. And one of my friends stood up
3:27
Speaker 3: and said, we're not calling him Indian. We're calling him
3:29
Speaker 3: letter N, letter D, letter N. He said, well, I
3:33
Speaker 3: can't do anything about that. And it just stuck. And
3:36
Speaker 3: I've always enjoyed it. A lot of people are like,
3:38
Speaker 3: he's not just a Indian.
3:39
Speaker 4: He's the Indian. There's only one of them running around.
3:41
Speaker 4: All right.
3:44
Speaker 3: As far as career goes, I am third generation doing
3:46
Speaker 3: precast concrete. But the passion, I've always enjoyed doing concrete.
3:50
Speaker 4: I've loved it.
3:51
Speaker 3: Being able to take the raw elements of earth and
3:54
Speaker 3: forging it into something that's going to last and help
3:57
Speaker 3: the world is phenomenal to me. I relocated down here
4:02
Speaker 3: to Fort Worth to actually do the McKinney Stadium, which
4:05
Speaker 3: is my third stadium to be a part of. Years ago,
4:08
Speaker 3: I was working for a company that dealt with a
4:11
Speaker 3: very strong epoxy resin plant. And only 4% of the
4:15
Speaker 3: people that are exposed directly to it will develop an
4:17
Speaker 3: allergy to it. And the company, it's easier for them
4:20
Speaker 3: just to pay you off than it is to change
4:23
Speaker 3: their safety protocols, which shouldn't be the way, but it's
4:28
Speaker 3: cheaper for them that way. And over time, my symptoms
4:32
Speaker 3: and my condition got worse and worse and worse because
4:35
Speaker 3: it just doesn't stop once you're out of the environment
4:38
Speaker 3: of that specific thing. I remember one time they laid
4:41
Speaker 3: a new asphalt in front of my house here on
4:43
Speaker 3: the road and I broke out for a week because
4:46
Speaker 3: of the adhesive and the tar and the asphalt just,
4:49
Speaker 3: and I couldn't avoid it because I was in my
4:51
Speaker 3: own home.
4:52
Speaker 2: So I have so many questions about that specifically. Cause
4:56
Speaker 2: you know, I don't know if you guys know about it,
4:58
Speaker 2: but like on this show specifically, like I've been doing
5:00
Speaker 2: a lot of interviews with working people who have been
5:04
Speaker 2: exposed to toxic chemicals from, um, work from industrial disasters
5:09
Speaker 2: near their homes, you know, all this kind of stuff
5:12
Speaker 2: that poor and working people are being exposed to daily.
5:16
Speaker 2: I mean, I was just filming in South Baltimore last
5:20
Speaker 2: night where residents just like you guys, but here in
5:23
Speaker 2: Baltimore are fighting trash incinerators that are blasting, you know,
5:27
Speaker 2: like toxic chemicals into the lungs of their children, you know, like, so,
5:31
Speaker 2: so this is definitely something that we've talked a lot
5:34
Speaker 2: about on the show and But I do want to
5:36
Speaker 2: talk about what that looked like for you, Indian, on
5:39
Speaker 2: a day-to-day working level. But before we get there, I
5:43
Speaker 2: want to go deeper into some of the lore here.
5:47
Speaker 2: Take me back to where you guys were in high school,
5:50
Speaker 2: where you first met. Quig, who was this guy in
5:54
Speaker 2: high school when you met? And Indian, same question about Quig.
5:59
Speaker 5: So Indian is a grade above me. So I came
6:04
Speaker 5: in as a freshman. He was already an established sophomore.
6:08
Speaker 5: He had a cool car.
6:09
Speaker 6: It was, like, painted. He had some, like, lady, like,
6:13
Speaker 6: did it have, like, a female on the hood? And
6:16
Speaker 6: it had, like, the universe. I mean, you couldn't miss
6:18
Speaker 6: this car.
6:18
Speaker 1: You had a lowrider?
6:19
Speaker 4: No, it actually was a 91 Chevy Cavalier. And any
6:23
Speaker 4: time I'd get bored, we would just respray paint it.
6:25
Speaker 4: It was all animal print once. Once it was all
6:27
Speaker 4: hippied out. Make love, not war.
6:30
Speaker 3: Even at one point, I gave all the kids an
6:33
Speaker 3: art paint pens and we just wrote quotes over the
6:35
Speaker 3: entire car. People would stand there and read it for hours.
6:38
Speaker 3: It was just something to do.
6:41
Speaker 5: I'd see the car around before I was even in
6:44
Speaker 5: high school. Then you see, oh, this is the cool
6:49
Speaker 5: guy with the cool car. Then he's always hanging out
6:53
Speaker 5: in the courtyard. He's always got this group of girls
6:56
Speaker 5: because he's just very... didn't didn't try very hard i
7:00
Speaker 5: guess so not not to say and honestly i don't
7:05
Speaker 5: think we liked each other um necessarily in the beginning
7:09
Speaker 5: it was just he you know he had this role
7:11
Speaker 5: that i was trying to like hang out with talk
7:14
Speaker 5: to and he just kind of didn't really like the
7:17
Speaker 5: new guy the new skinny white dude that was hanging around.
7:19
Speaker 1: You gotta earn your keep baby it took a couple
7:22
Speaker 1: years he.
7:23
Speaker 3: Really had to And most of these girls I've been
7:26
Speaker 3: friends with for years. So, you know, I was very
7:28
Speaker 3: protective of them because they were my friends. And here's
7:31
Speaker 3: this scrawny kid coming in, trying to ask them all,
7:35
Speaker 3: all different kinds of things and get involved. I'm like, Hey,
7:38
Speaker 3: you don't need to be around here right now. But
7:42
Speaker 3: eventually he warmed over to me and I warmed over
7:45
Speaker 3: to him.
7:46
Speaker 5: Yeah. I was best friends with his cousin for like
7:49
Speaker 5: a couple of years and probably what, sophomore, not sophomore,
7:54
Speaker 5: like junior, senior year.
7:56
Speaker 6: We started maybe having a little bit more. You invited
7:59
Speaker 6: me to your house.
8:01
Speaker 3: I had a house that most people weren't allowed to.
8:03
Speaker 3: I was very young and I lived on my own.
8:04
Speaker 3: So it was just me and this trailer house at
8:08
Speaker 3: 16 years old. So a lot of parents didn't even
8:10
Speaker 3: allow their kids over to my place.
8:12
Speaker 5: Yeah.
8:13
Speaker 4: And then it's probably painted up through in the walls.
8:16
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, to be honest, I don't think my,
8:17
Speaker 2: my parents wouldn't allow that either, but that would be
8:20
Speaker 2: exactly the house we'd all want to go to. Like,
8:24
Speaker 2: can I ask, like, I mean, can I ask how
8:26
Speaker 2: you ended up having your own kind of place when
8:30
Speaker 2: you were 16?
8:32
Speaker 3: My, my parents separated and it was a choice of either.
8:36
Speaker 3: Do I go live with my dad or do I
8:37
Speaker 3: go live with my mom? And I was already working
8:39
Speaker 3: full time at the time. And, uh, I bought a
8:43
Speaker 3: trailer house on state auction and moved into it. And
8:46
Speaker 3: it was just simpler that way. You know, my mother
8:49
Speaker 3: ended up moving back in with me a few years later.
8:52
Speaker 3: But it was just more convenient. So I was, like
8:57
Speaker 3: I said, I already had the income coming in.
8:59
Speaker 1: What were you doing back then for work?
9:01
Speaker 3: Back then, my first job was working for the Department
9:05
Speaker 3: of Wildlife through a program called ATEC, which was American
9:09
Speaker 3: Indian Education Training Association. They took Native Americans and put
9:13
Speaker 3: them at federal buildings and gave them summer jobs.
9:16
Speaker 4: So that got me experience.
9:17
Speaker 3: Pretty much I was doing property management, mowing the yard,
9:20
Speaker 3: stuff like that. But I got to do a lot
9:22
Speaker 3: of really cool stuff with them because I was, you know, hey,
9:25
Speaker 3: let's grab him and take him with us to go
9:26
Speaker 3: do this fish survey. Or, you know, let's go explore
9:30
Speaker 3: the bat caves and do a survey out there. And
9:32
Speaker 3: so it was very fun for as a youth to
9:35
Speaker 3: have that. And then I went straight from that to
9:37
Speaker 3: Home Depot, working at Home Depot.
9:40
Speaker 4: As a pro associate.
9:41
Speaker 2: So like paint a paint a picture for me when
9:43
Speaker 2: you guys were back there in Oklahoma. Like, are we
9:46
Speaker 2: talking kind of small town, Oklahoma, medium town, like city?
9:52
Speaker 1: Like, I guess. Yeah. Paint a picture for me.
9:55
Speaker 3: So Bethany, Oklahoma, at that point was the very edge
9:58
Speaker 3: of Oklahoma City.
10:01
Speaker 4: So it's pretty much small town. I knew all the
10:03
Speaker 4: police officers.
10:03
Speaker 3: They all knew me, you know, not cause I was
10:06
Speaker 3: in trouble just cause it wasn't a lot of.
10:07
Speaker 4: Us running around.
10:08
Speaker 3: And, um, of course it was the late nineties, early 2000.
10:14
Speaker 3: So we were always getting into some sort of trouble
10:16
Speaker 3: as we all did back in that time.
10:18
Speaker 5: Oklahoma is a pretty small, big town. I think less
10:21
Speaker 5: than a million people in the whole city.
10:24
Speaker 4: Probably less than that now.
10:25
Speaker 5: But, I mean, you know, it takes, what, 10 minutes
10:28
Speaker 5: or less to get down into the heart of Bricktown,
10:31
Speaker 5: downtown Oklahoma City. I mean, it still is a small town,
10:35
Speaker 5: but it's trying to be bigger than it really is.
10:39
Speaker 2: I mean, I come from, like, Southern California, like the
10:43
Speaker 2: land of endless... lights and sprawl from the beach to
10:48
Speaker 2: the mountains so like everything feels small town to me
10:50
Speaker 2: to some extent you know but like but to be
10:54
Speaker 2: honest i kind of got a lot of love for
10:55
Speaker 2: like the small and medium-sized towns in the country like
10:59
Speaker 2: i i don't think i gave them enough credit when
11:01
Speaker 2: i was younger um but the older i get and
11:04
Speaker 2: go visit more uh the more fascinating they are But
11:07
Speaker 2: I wanted to ask in that vein, we're talking about Oklahoma.
11:12
Speaker 2: I guess we're talking in the colonial project of the
11:16
Speaker 2: United States of America, so everything is ironic. But living
11:20
Speaker 2: in a state named Oklahoma and going to a school
11:24
Speaker 2: where you make fun of Native American kids feels so
11:28
Speaker 2: ironic and ridiculous that I don't even know what to
11:31
Speaker 2: do with myself.
11:32
Speaker 1: But was that.
11:33
Speaker 2: was that normal Indian? Like, I mean, what, what was
11:36
Speaker 2: the kind of ratio where there, were there a lot
11:38
Speaker 2: of indigenous like kids going to school there?
11:42
Speaker 3: No, no, there wasn't in high school. There was maybe
11:45
Speaker 3: five of us all together. I mean, there's not a
11:48
Speaker 3: lot of us left. I, I, it's sad to say
11:51
Speaker 3: I was fortunate enough to, to run into, I mean,
11:53
Speaker 3: we just kind of all clicked together. Cause you know,
11:55
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, you're native too.
11:56
Speaker 1: Cool.
11:56
Speaker 4: You know, what, what tribe, what's your.
11:59
Speaker 3: Family line, you know, but, um, The whole reason why
12:02
Speaker 3: we were in Oklahoma City is that my father was
12:04
Speaker 3: one of the Native Americans you hear about in the
12:06
Speaker 3: past being adopted off the res, you know, for a
12:09
Speaker 3: very low amount of money. And then he was adopted
12:13
Speaker 3: with four other siblings, all Native from different tribes, raised
12:17
Speaker 3: by a white man in the city, you know. So, yeah,
12:21
Speaker 3: there just wasn't a lot that made it to the
12:23
Speaker 3: inner city area at that time. They all stayed out.
12:28
Speaker 3: near the reservations, near the small towns like Carnegie and Adarko,
12:33
Speaker 3: you know?
12:33
Speaker 4: So being inside the city, yeah, there wasn't a lot
12:36
Speaker 4: of us.
12:36
Speaker 2: And I take it from like the, the origin story
12:39
Speaker 2: of your, of your nickname that like, it wasn't a
12:42
Speaker 2: very kind place to native kids like you.
12:44
Speaker 3: Oh, no, no, no. I, I remember once I was
12:48
Speaker 3: 14 walking down the street and the cops pulled me
12:51
Speaker 3: over because they had an APP put out on the
12:53
Speaker 3: native American with long hair. And I just had to
12:56
Speaker 3: be a Native American with long hair. And they picked
12:59
Speaker 3: me up and took me down to the police station,
13:01
Speaker 3: which was just like three blocks from my house. You know,
13:04
Speaker 3: I wasn't the person they were looking for. The person
13:06
Speaker 3: they were looking for had robbed the gas station, you know,
13:09
Speaker 3: and he was in his late 20s and I was 14. So,
13:13
Speaker 3: but I mean, we stood out. So you either knew
13:17
Speaker 3: who we were, you know, just the way it was.
13:22
Speaker 1: It's true.
13:23
Speaker 5: And kind of what they did, only taught us in
13:25
Speaker 5: school about native american culture is just a annual field
13:29
Speaker 5: trip we take to the cowboy hall of fame and
13:31
Speaker 5: they'd show us the statues and talk about the trail
13:34
Speaker 5: of tears.
13:35
Speaker 2: Yeah but there's like you know like there's a lot
13:38
Speaker 2: of to this story that i identify with you know
13:42
Speaker 2: like in in certain ways right like i don't know
13:45
Speaker 2: what that's like indian but i know what it's like
13:47
Speaker 2: to be a bald, scary-looking Mexican dude in America. And, like,
13:51
Speaker 2: you know, that's... I'll take looking like Quig over looking
13:55
Speaker 2: like us on a normal day, you know, like, if
13:57
Speaker 2: I don't want to get stopped by the cops. But,
13:59
Speaker 2: you know, like, that's, like, all the more reason why
14:02
Speaker 2: it just fills my heart when I hear... stories of
14:07
Speaker 2: like you know camaraderie and life-saving solidarity even among kids
14:11
Speaker 2: who are standing up for a friend um tell tell
14:15
Speaker 2: me more about that uh both of you like the
14:17
Speaker 2: the the stepping in to sort of reclaim the name
14:21
Speaker 2: and and to sort of say like this is this
14:23
Speaker 2: is not how we're gonna do things this guy's our
14:26
Speaker 2: friend not our enemy Oh, yeah.
14:28
Speaker 4: I mean, Quake is my white guy. I always joke
14:30
Speaker 4: with people. I'm like, I got my white guy. He's
14:32
Speaker 4: right here. I'm safe. I don't need a card. I
14:37
Speaker 4: got a whole person. And I mean, he's always had
14:42
Speaker 4: my back.
14:44
Speaker 3: Once we really connected and I realized that this is
14:48
Speaker 3: somebody that I needed to be part of my life.
14:50
Speaker 3: And everything he's done for me over the years, I
14:54
Speaker 3: can't live up to.
14:55
Speaker 4: You know, I try.
14:57
Speaker 6: I seriously doubt that, brother.
14:59
Speaker 5: You know, I have like computer smarts and I can
15:03
Speaker 5: do like techie stuff, but this guy is the dude
15:07
Speaker 5: if you need any help.
15:10
Speaker 6: I mean, I'll go back to last year.
15:13
Speaker 5: We had a leak in my daughter's bathroom and it
15:17
Speaker 5: was coming down in the guest bathroom. And I was like,
15:19
Speaker 5: I don't know what the hell to do, man. It's
15:22
Speaker 5: just like coming down. And he just hopped in his
15:24
Speaker 5: car and he's like, brought all his tools because he's.
15:28
Speaker 6: Just that guy. And so he came and he helped
15:30
Speaker 6: me change the drywall.
15:32
Speaker 5: And, you know, and as he's doing this and helping
15:35
Speaker 5: me with all the, you know, stepping outside, cause I
15:38
Speaker 5: got to spray.
15:39
Speaker 6: Some kills on the, on the paint or on the,
15:41
Speaker 6: on the wood.
15:42
Speaker 5: I mean, he's getting hives, he's getting blisters. I was,
15:45
Speaker 5: you know, I'm feeling incredibly guilty. And he's like, don't,
15:47
Speaker 5: don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. It's just,
15:49
Speaker 5: let's just get it done. But he's just that kind
15:52
Speaker 5: of guy. And it's, it's been like that. Anytime I've
15:55
Speaker 5: needed him, he's just always there. And it's not just me.
15:59
Speaker 5: It's like everybody. He's helped damn near everybody that we know,
16:06
Speaker 5: either with a place to stay, help fixing their car,
16:12
Speaker 5: mowing a yard.
16:13
Speaker 6: It doesn't matter.
16:13
Speaker 5: He's a helper.
16:15
Speaker 6: He's a doer. And that's just something I've always admired
16:18
Speaker 6: from him.
16:19
Speaker 4: Whoa.
16:21
Speaker 2: And it's genuinely beautiful to hear you guys say that, right? Because,
16:26
Speaker 2: you know, first and foremost, I'm thinking just as three
16:29
Speaker 2: men in the country today, we don't say this enough
16:33
Speaker 2: to each other. And, you know, like we don't allow
16:35
Speaker 2: ourselves to sort of be that for each other. And
16:38
Speaker 2: so I just wanted to kind of honor the beautiful
16:41
Speaker 2: friendship that you guys have. Having each other's backs for
16:44
Speaker 2: this long is a marvelous thing. And, like, I'll be
16:48
Speaker 2: honest with all of you listening. you know, Quig reached
16:51
Speaker 2: out to me about, uh, Indian's story and, and told
16:55
Speaker 2: me about it. And that's how it got on my radar.
16:58
Speaker 2: So these guys have been together for years and they're
17:01
Speaker 2: still looking out for each other. And I think the
17:03
Speaker 2: world will be a better place if we all do
17:06
Speaker 2: a little more of that for each other. And, you know, like,
17:10
Speaker 2: you know, Quig, even you telling that story reminds me
17:14
Speaker 2: that like, we, we still got so much to talk
17:16
Speaker 2: about here, Indian, about like your, your working life and, um,
17:20
Speaker 2: kind of the conditions and chemicals that you were exposed
17:24
Speaker 2: to that are now collapsing your health and your quality
17:29
Speaker 2: of life. So that's normally what we talk about on
17:33
Speaker 2: this show is I talk to workers and I say,
17:35
Speaker 2: tell me about your working life. What does it look
17:37
Speaker 2: like on the job? For people who have never worked
17:41
Speaker 2: in this line of work, what does it entail? Can
17:44
Speaker 2: you kind of take us a little bit on that
17:46
Speaker 2: journey and then like, tell us about the kind of
17:50
Speaker 2: work hazards that you were exposed to?
17:52
Speaker 4: Yeah.
17:54
Speaker 3: The company where I was working for made burial vaults
17:56
Speaker 3: and the pots that they used went on the liners
17:59
Speaker 3: of the burial vaults to seal it to the concrete.
18:02
Speaker 3: So it made plain a watertight sealness for 50 to
18:06
Speaker 3: a hundred years.
18:07
Speaker 4: That's what they were concerned about.
18:08
Speaker 3: The people working in there that were alive were being
18:12
Speaker 3: exposed to a hazardous chemical to keep somebody that's going
18:16
Speaker 3: to go in the ground from being exposed to the
18:18
Speaker 3: elements of the ground was more important to them than
18:22
Speaker 3: the people actually doing the job. Because there was other
18:24
Speaker 3: things that could have been used that was more efficient,
18:28
Speaker 3: but cost more money. So to them, and after my
18:33
Speaker 3: initial exposure with this company, I realized, was still passionate
18:40
Speaker 3: about concrete. I still wanted to do concrete, but I
18:42
Speaker 3: had to relearn what companies I could work for, where
18:46
Speaker 3: I could work at, and how I could do it
18:48
Speaker 3: because now I've got to change everything. I can't be
18:50
Speaker 3: around anything that has solid chemicals. I've got to be
18:54
Speaker 3: in open environments. And one of the things, I was
18:57
Speaker 3: also a German iron worker because every now and then
18:59
Speaker 3: you get tired of staring at gray when you do
19:01
Speaker 3: concrete long enough. And back to the whole, you know,
19:05
Speaker 3: having lung and breathing respiratory issues, As a journeyman iron worker,
19:09
Speaker 3: I was working on the Devon Tower, which is the
19:11
Speaker 3: tallest building in Oklahoma City. And I was going from
19:14
Speaker 3: the ground up a thousand feet every day. And I
19:17
Speaker 3: had developed acute altitude sickness from just working on the
19:21
Speaker 3: outside of the building every day. But that was a
19:24
Speaker 3: lot of that was contributed because they did a long
19:26
Speaker 3: biopsy on me to test me for silicosis, which is
19:29
Speaker 3: from concrete dust. And I did have some concrete dust
19:32
Speaker 3: built up in my lungs at the time. And that's
19:35
Speaker 3: just because, you know, not wearing enough protection when you
19:38
Speaker 3: should wear protection. Because old school concrete guys just get
19:43
Speaker 3: the job done, which I got no problem getting a
19:46
Speaker 3: job done, but it should be done safely, effectively. and efficiently,
19:51
Speaker 3: not the other direction around. Efficiently and safety being one
19:56
Speaker 3: of the last concerns. So after no longer working for
20:00
Speaker 3: the company that caused my initial, and I didn't realize
20:04
Speaker 3: how bad I was going to get over the years, Initially,
20:09
Speaker 3: it was just adhesives in general. Then it got where
20:11
Speaker 3: I couldn't even put a band-aid on without breaking out
20:13
Speaker 3: from the adhesives, as I am now. I actually have
20:16
Speaker 3: to order special medical stuff when I do get a
20:20
Speaker 3: cut so I can seal myself and not have a
20:26
Speaker 3: reaction to it for one third of the time.
20:27
Speaker 5: He has to take his own adhesives to the ER
20:30
Speaker 5: when he's got to go to the ER because of
20:33
Speaker 5: his terminal liver failure.
20:35
Speaker 6: Otherwise, he'll break out from that.
20:37
Speaker 3: Yeah, even going in for a procedure, they put an
20:40
Speaker 3: EKG machine on me. I'm going to break out from
20:43
Speaker 3: every point where the EKG machine is.
20:45
Speaker 1: Jesus, man.
20:46
Speaker 3: Even the tape on my fingers or the monitor, my
20:48
Speaker 3: heart rate and my breathing will make me break out.
20:53
Speaker 4: So I travel with my own medical stuff now.
20:56
Speaker 1: It sounds like hell.
20:57
Speaker 5: It is.
20:59
Speaker 3: It made me a shut-in for quite a while because
21:02
Speaker 3: going to Wal-Mart.
21:04
Speaker 4: Going to the grocery store.
21:04
Speaker 3: Luckily, there's DoorDash and things like that now where I
21:07
Speaker 3: don't have to get out and get exposed. But again,
21:11
Speaker 3: like I said, it made me change how I worked
21:13
Speaker 3: in concrete. I went to places that had superstructures that
21:17
Speaker 3: worked outside. Still doing, making beautiful things with concrete, but
21:23
Speaker 3: eventually the skinology, the multiple chemical sensitivity just overtook everything.
21:29
Speaker 4: And I just couldn't.
21:32
Speaker 3: I did work for a trailer company for a little while,
21:36
Speaker 3: working three days a week because they knew my skin issue.
21:38
Speaker 4: They knew my thing.
21:39
Speaker 3: So I would go there whenever they needed something welded
21:42
Speaker 3: or something wired that they couldn't figure out, you know.
21:45
Speaker 3: But again, now I'm going to this place to work
21:48
Speaker 3: on a trailer and that trailer might have had paint
21:50
Speaker 3: in it. It might have had construction debris. You know,
21:54
Speaker 3: I can't even walk into a Home Depot or Walmart,
21:57
Speaker 3: you know, or Lowe's. Fast food restaurants get me pretty good, too.
22:02
Speaker 3: And as much as I love old people, they're a
22:04
Speaker 3: little heavy with that perfume.
22:09
Speaker 1: That's putting it mildly, man.
22:12
Speaker 2: And yeah, I'm sure so many of us don't even
22:16
Speaker 2: realize all the spaces that we walk into where those
22:19
Speaker 2: irritants are. But if you start breaking out in hives
22:24
Speaker 2: the second that you're exposed to it, you start realizing that, Actually,
22:28
Speaker 2: there are a lot of places you can't go. And that,
22:33
Speaker 2: you know, is just something that I think so many
22:36
Speaker 2: of us don't have to think about. But when you're
22:38
Speaker 2: in your position and you have to think about it,
22:40
Speaker 2: it must be just genuinely overwhelming at times.
22:45
Speaker 3: T-Mobile has their own scent of air freshener. So when
22:49
Speaker 3: you open a T-Mobile store door, it puts a little
22:51
Speaker 3: spray into the air for a sensory thing. You know,
22:54
Speaker 3: I understand how that can be with marketing. Oh, this
22:56
Speaker 3: is what T-Mobile smells like. I'm getting a new phone.
22:59
Speaker 3: And I didn't know that till the first, till they
23:01
Speaker 3: rolled out with that. And I went into a T-Mobile
23:03
Speaker 3: and next thing I know I'm being sprayed and now
23:05
Speaker 3: I'm breaking out in hives and I've got a leak.
23:07
Speaker 1: Jesus, man. I mean, like, and so like, right.
23:12
Speaker 2: As, as we sort of get to, you know, the
23:15
Speaker 2: situation that you're dealing with now, you know, I've, I've
23:19
Speaker 2: heard from you a number of things already. Like, you know,
23:23
Speaker 2: we're talking silicosis, like we're talking, you know, exposure to
23:28
Speaker 2: to epoxy resin, like generating a chronic skin sensitivity, right?
23:34
Speaker 2: I mean, like the, the altitude sickness that you developed
23:37
Speaker 2: on the job, like, I guess if you had to
23:40
Speaker 2: sort of, you know, sum it up, if you could,
23:43
Speaker 2: like what conditions do you have now that came from,
23:49
Speaker 2: you know, working in this country from being exposed to
23:52
Speaker 2: things or repetitive actions to things like, I guess I
23:56
Speaker 2: wanted to try to kind of collect all that for
23:59
Speaker 2: listeners and ask, like, what is the kind of sum
24:03
Speaker 2: total of all the crap that you're dealing with from
24:05
Speaker 2: all the jobs that you've worked?
24:07
Speaker 3: If the MSDS is laid out and has certain rules
24:11
Speaker 3: and regulations, if the company will buy it by the
24:14
Speaker 3: MSDS correctly, I would have never been overexposed.
24:17
Speaker 6: What's the MSDS?
24:19
Speaker 4: Material Safety Data Sheets.
24:20
Speaker 3: It tells you about the hazardous of the chemicals, what
24:23
Speaker 3: you're supposed to be wearing and be doing to your not.
24:26
Speaker 3: hurt by it and it doesn't affect you. And most companies, yeah,
24:31
Speaker 3: we've got the MSDS. It's in a book on the
24:33
Speaker 3: wall over there. You can go look at it if
24:35
Speaker 3: you want to. And then they tell you to go
24:38
Speaker 3: to work. And I was guilty of doing that to
24:43
Speaker 3: people too. Like, well, yeah, the MSDS is over there, but,
24:46
Speaker 3: you know, just put this little mask on. In reality,
24:50
Speaker 3: they needed a respirator instead of just a dust mask
24:53
Speaker 3: and went on with the day to get the day done.
24:58
Speaker 3: Things have changed a lot now than how bad it
25:01
Speaker 3: used to be when me starting off in the industry
25:06
Speaker 3: of concrete and everything else. Because, again, it was, you know,
25:10
Speaker 3: you'd stand in a cloud of dust grinding and.
25:14
Speaker 4: Just, you know, put on some safety glasses and hold
25:17
Speaker 4: your breath.
25:18
Speaker 1: Well, and let's talk about, like, when these.
25:22
Speaker 2: kind of health conditions started piling up and you needed,
25:27
Speaker 2: you know, to the point that you needed disability checks
25:30
Speaker 2: and then like, you know, had to navigate this like
25:34
Speaker 2: Kafka-esque system that doesn't work to try.
25:37
Speaker 1: To get the aid that you need to live.
25:40
Speaker 2: Like, tell us more about the kind of crisis that
25:45
Speaker 2: you're in now and, you know.
25:49
Speaker 1: All the people who are supposed to be helping you
25:51
Speaker 1: right now, but aren't.
25:52
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, even going to the Social Security office
25:55
Speaker 3: to file for disability, I would sit there breaking out
25:58
Speaker 3: because I'm waiting for long periods of time in a
25:59
Speaker 3: line in a room full of people with chemicals on. So,
26:04
Speaker 3: you know, it became like, you know, I have no choice.
26:08
Speaker 3: I have to go do this. I've got to go
26:11
Speaker 3: file this paperwork and I file the paperwork and I
26:13
Speaker 3: wait and I wait and I wait. And then, you know, well,
26:17
Speaker 3: we want to send you to this doctor. Well, I
26:18
Speaker 3: call the doctor's office. I'm like, listen, I can't just
26:21
Speaker 3: go in there. And they don't apply by those rules.
26:24
Speaker 3: They're like, no, you've got to come in. You've got
26:26
Speaker 3: to wait.
26:26
Speaker 4: You've got to go through this.
26:29
Speaker 3: Even now, I've got some doctors that really help me
26:33
Speaker 3: with my situation and make sure the days that I'm
26:36
Speaker 3: scheduled that nobody's wearing perfume and that it's going to
26:39
Speaker 3: be a nice, clean environment for me. And I have
26:42
Speaker 3: other doctors that care less. But I've got to go
26:45
Speaker 3: through them because that's who's this. The Social Security is
26:49
Speaker 3: telling me, well, you need to go to this guy
26:51
Speaker 3: and get tested for this. I mean, they just did
26:53
Speaker 3: an allergy test on me. And part of the allergy test,
26:56
Speaker 3: the bonding agent in the allergy test is an adhesive.
27:02
Speaker 4: So I tested positive for everything.
27:04
Speaker 3: Even though I told them I'm an adhesive and, yeah,
27:06
Speaker 3: it just has to be on my skin for a
27:08
Speaker 3: few minutes to test me for allergies. Well, that's still
27:11
Speaker 3: an adhesive on my skin for a few minutes. And
27:14
Speaker 3: I ended up having to get an epi shot in
27:15
Speaker 3: the middle of the test, which now became an inclusive test.
27:20
Speaker 4: Well, you know.
27:22
Speaker 5: And I do want to clarify that Fort Worth Star-Telegram's article,
27:26
Speaker 5: I don't believe he's been approved for disability yet.
27:30
Speaker 7: No.
27:31
Speaker 3: No, I haven't been approved yet, but since we've gotten
27:34
Speaker 3: the articles, they've started reaching out to me more instead
27:38
Speaker 3: of me having to wait and call them. So now
27:41
Speaker 3: we're actually communicating back and forth for the first time,
27:43
Speaker 3: but I've been denied twice.
27:45
Speaker 2: So, like, the situation, as I understand it, please correct
27:48
Speaker 2: me if I'm wrong, is that You now, because of
27:54
Speaker 2: what you've been exposed to over the course of your
27:56
Speaker 2: working life are no longer able to work and you
28:01
Speaker 2: are disabled by those things you were exposed to, but
28:04
Speaker 2: you have received no money from the disability office. Like
28:08
Speaker 2: you're just, your life is in like limbo right now.
28:11
Speaker 4: Yes. I am in limbo.
28:13
Speaker 3: And, and the first two times I was denied because
28:16
Speaker 3: they did not recognize multiple chemical sensitivity, uh, as a
28:19
Speaker 3: disability until the past five years. And I've been dealing
28:24
Speaker 3: with it for 10 years now. So it wasn't recognized
28:28
Speaker 3: as a disability. Now they're starting to, well, what do
28:31
Speaker 3: we have to do to prove that this is a disability?
28:34
Speaker 3: And because of my skin always having to fight these
28:37
Speaker 3: battles and me being on experimental drugs, trying to overcome
28:41
Speaker 3: with it and Part of being native is that most
28:45
Speaker 3: drugs aren't made for a 40-year-old Native American guy. They're
28:48
Speaker 3: made for a 40-year-old white man who has years and
28:52
Speaker 3: years of antibodies built up in the systems where if
28:55
Speaker 3: I get a flu shot, I'm ending up with walking pneumonia.
29:00
Speaker 3: Where if Quigley got a flu shot, he's just fine
29:02
Speaker 3: the next day because it's more developed. So my body
29:07
Speaker 3: started shutting down because of it trying to fight all
29:10
Speaker 3: the time, always battling, always battling my skin, always fighting.
29:13
Speaker 3: led to me becoming, having internal organ failure. I've had,
29:19
Speaker 3: I go in for another surgery on Monday, which will
29:21
Speaker 3: be my 10th surgery this year alone because my body's
29:25
Speaker 3: just shutting down. So, but yeah, I'm just in limbo.
29:30
Speaker 3: But now, so I was able to refile for social
29:32
Speaker 3: security with the internal organ failure and the liver failure
29:37
Speaker 3: and the terminal diagnostics now. So yeah, it's not even
29:40
Speaker 3: really taking the multiple chemical sensitivity into effect with my
29:44
Speaker 3: disability that's just added to it.
29:46
Speaker 2: Now well and you know like i i guarantee that
29:52
Speaker 2: there are going to be folks that i know who
29:54
Speaker 2: are going to listen to this and they're going to
29:56
Speaker 2: reach out and they're going to say You know, you're
29:58
Speaker 2: damn right it's a disability.
30:00
Speaker 1: Like, they have it.
30:01
Speaker 2: Like, a lot of the residents I was talking about
30:03
Speaker 2: who have been exposed to these chemicals, like, now they
30:07
Speaker 2: are so hypersensitive to these chemicals. And, like, they bioaccumulate
30:12
Speaker 2: and they make them feel worse. And, you know, their
30:16
Speaker 2: kids are getting sick or staying sick or they haven't
30:18
Speaker 2: been– not sick for like years at this point. And
30:23
Speaker 2: it's just this kind of hell that they're living through.
30:26
Speaker 2: And I can't help but think of all the other
30:29
Speaker 2: workers like you who are exposed to this stuff. I mean,
30:32
Speaker 2: like in the year 2026, black lung is on the
30:37
Speaker 2: rise in this country. Like, you know, there are men
30:39
Speaker 2: our age dying from coal mining or other forms of
30:42
Speaker 2: silicosis because of the stuff they're inhaling. The lack of
30:47
Speaker 2: PPE they're getting, you know, just this whole system of
30:51
Speaker 2: grinding people down to dust and subjecting our bodies to
30:55
Speaker 2: the most toxic conditions just to make a buck. And, like,
31:00
Speaker 2: it's so systemic, but it impacts us in so many
31:05
Speaker 2: different ways. And I kind of wanted to just ask
31:07
Speaker 2: you guys about that. Like, what does this all say about,
31:12
Speaker 2: you know, like, the daily realities that working people face?
31:16
Speaker 1: Are going through in this country.
31:18
Speaker 2: And, and, and especially if you're disabled or indigenous or both.
31:23
Speaker 5: Well, I'll say that invisible disabilities are easily ignored. That
31:29
Speaker 5: is one thing that Andy and I both have in common.
31:32
Speaker 5: You look at both of us on a normal day,
31:34
Speaker 5: you don't see a disability. You don't see a multiple
31:38
Speaker 5: chemical sensitivity in him. You don't see type one diabetes
31:41
Speaker 5: in me. So it's easy, kind of out of sight,
31:46
Speaker 5: out of mind for a lot of people, except for
31:50
Speaker 5: the people that have to deal with it day in,
31:52
Speaker 5: day out, when they wake up to when they go
31:54
Speaker 5: to bed.
31:54
Speaker 3: I feel like in a way I was robbed because
31:57
Speaker 3: I always wanted to provide for my family. I always
32:00
Speaker 3: wanted to work hard and make a living. And because
32:03
Speaker 3: I was working hard and making a living and the
32:06
Speaker 3: companies that I worked for ignored safety protocols and I
32:10
Speaker 3: can no longer do what I want to do for
32:12
Speaker 3: my family and be there for my family the way
32:15
Speaker 3: I should have been allowed to. And a lot of
32:18
Speaker 3: working people, that's all we want to do is make
32:21
Speaker 3: ends meet, survive and enjoy life and enjoy the little things.
32:26
Speaker 4: And to not be able to do.
32:28
Speaker 3: That now because a company wanted to make more money
32:33
Speaker 3: isn't justified.
32:34
Speaker 6: It's, I mean, it's true.
32:36
Speaker 5: It's just, america is built on the backs of people
32:39
Speaker 5: like indian and and a lot of people just use
32:43
Speaker 5: them as stepping stones to get to the future.
32:46
Speaker 2: Yeah i think that was beautifully and powerfully and put
32:50
Speaker 2: and it's it's so depressingly true i mean you know
32:55
Speaker 2: jesus we just passed the you know 25th anniversary of
32:58
Speaker 2: 9-11 and we're learning about all the things that You know,
33:02
Speaker 2: not just first responders, but people all over New York
33:06
Speaker 2: were exposed to and like lied to about, you know,
33:10
Speaker 2: for years later. You know, like this is this is
33:13
Speaker 2: unacceptable at every single level. And we can't keep accepting it.
33:19
Speaker 2: We've got to do something about it. We got to
33:22
Speaker 2: start by taking care of each other. And I wanted
33:26
Speaker 2: to kind of bring us there for the kind of
33:29
Speaker 2: final turn here because I know I can't keep you
33:31
Speaker 2: guys for much longer, but I wanted to ask like
33:34
Speaker 2: where things currently stand, right? I mean, you guys already
33:39
Speaker 2: gave us an important update from the Fort Worth Star-Telegram
33:44
Speaker 2: that apparently NDN still hasn't received anything from the disability
33:48
Speaker 2: office and he was denied two times before that anyway.
33:51
Speaker 1: Until his organs started shutting down.
33:54
Speaker 2: Then he got some movement, but where does that leave
33:58
Speaker 2: Indian now? Where does that leave your family now? And
34:01
Speaker 2: what are folks doing in response? What can folks listening
34:04
Speaker 2: do to help?
34:05
Speaker 4: Right. I mean, tobacco down, sage up.
34:12
Speaker 3: You know?
34:14
Speaker 4: Pray to whoever will listen.
34:15
Speaker 5: Yeah, we were kind of waiting to see what disability says. uh,
34:21
Speaker 5: hopefully he gets an approval and he'll get some sort
34:24
Speaker 5: of like some sort of money back money so that
34:30
Speaker 5: I can get caught up with his bills.
34:31
Speaker 6: Cause the bills haven't stopped. You know, the mortgage hasn't stopped.
34:35
Speaker 5: Yeah. There's still, this is, they're still trying to foreclose
34:39
Speaker 5: as far as I, as far as I know, you know,
34:41
Speaker 5: because he's terminal, they're trying to get the, at least
34:43
Speaker 5: the ability for him to stay in his home and
34:45
Speaker 5: not be evicted.
34:47
Speaker 6: But that doesn't solve a problem.
34:48
Speaker 5: That just pushes it down the road and it leaves
34:51
Speaker 5: it for his kids when Indian's.
34:53
Speaker 6: No longer here to help.
34:55
Speaker 5: But as far as what's keeping him afloat has been
34:59
Speaker 5: this GoFundMe the last month or so, just from the
35:04
Speaker 5: kindness of strangers. Indian spent his life helping anybody and everybody.
35:12
Speaker 5: That doesn't mean that those people are in positions to
35:15
Speaker 5: be able to help financially or monetarily in any way.
35:20
Speaker 5: Indian's always been that person to support others. It's just,
35:25
Speaker 5: there's nobody there, you know, maybe outside of myself that's
35:30
Speaker 5: able to kind of help him.
35:33
Speaker 6: In that sense.
35:34
Speaker 5: And so we were sitting around his cousin, my other
35:39
Speaker 5: best friend and his mother on his birthday, but six
35:44
Speaker 5: weeks ago, something like that. sitting around the kitchen table
35:48
Speaker 5: trying to figure out how do we stop this foreclosure?
35:50
Speaker 6: What can we do?
35:51
Speaker 5: Can we get a loan? Can we try to refinance?
35:54
Speaker 5: Can we refinance his mom's house? Can I afford to
35:59
Speaker 5: purchase the home on my own? And realistically, none of us,
36:02
Speaker 5: we couldn't do any of that. So I went home
36:06
Speaker 5: frustrated that we had to do this on his birthday,
36:10
Speaker 5: kind of cried about it a little bit and said,
36:14
Speaker 5: fuck it, I'm going to do this. I'm going to
36:16
Speaker 5: make a GoFundMe. I'm going to tell my friend's story
36:19
Speaker 5: the best that I can and see if people are
36:23
Speaker 5: willing to respond. Just try to show the world the
36:29
Speaker 5: kind person and generous person he's always been.
36:32
Speaker 6: And hopefully karma will come back tenfold on him.
36:41
Speaker 2: Well, and Indian, I want to, I want to give
36:43
Speaker 2: you the last word here and it can really be
36:46
Speaker 2: anything that you want, but I guess if, if you
36:49
Speaker 2: could know that you're speaking to fellow workers, you know,
36:53
Speaker 2: around the country who listened to this show, you know,
36:56
Speaker 2: who work in industries like this and industries that unlike this,
37:00
Speaker 2: like if you could talk to those folks who are
37:03
Speaker 2: working jobs like this now, or folks out there, you know, like.
37:08
Speaker 1: Who, you know, could help Like, what would you just
37:12
Speaker 1: want to leave them with?
37:14
Speaker 4: My family's got a motto.
37:16
Speaker 3: If someone needs help, you help. You don't ever respect
37:18
Speaker 3: anything in return. Whether it's an old lady who's crossing
37:22
Speaker 3: the street, somebody on the side of the road with
37:23
Speaker 3: a flat tire, you know, any situation. Somebody needs you
37:28
Speaker 3: to help them push a car.
37:29
Speaker 4: Or you notice your.
37:31
Speaker 3: Neighbor's grass is too tall and you know he hasn't
37:33
Speaker 3: been feeling well the last few weeks.
37:37
Speaker 4: Nothing's going to cost you a time. Time is all
37:39
Speaker 4: we have for each other.
37:39
Speaker 3: And let's enjoy it and spend it and help everybody together.
37:44
Speaker 4: We're all in this together. This is one world, one life.
37:48
Speaker 4: We're all part of this.
37:55
Speaker 2: All right, gang, that's going to wrap things up for
37:58
Speaker 2: us today. I want to thank our guests, James Indian
38:01
Speaker 2: Gardner and James Quigg. You can get in touch with
38:05
Speaker 2: them and keep up to date with Indian's story by
38:07
Speaker 2: using the links that we've included in.
38:09
Speaker 1: The show notes for this episode.
38:11
Speaker 2: And of course, I want to thank you all for listening,
38:14
Speaker 2: and I want to thank you for caring about this.
38:16
Speaker 2: We do this work for you, but we can't do
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Speaker 2: it without you. So thank you. Working People is brought
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Speaker 2: The Real News Network. The show is produced by the
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Speaker 2: great Jules Taylor and is a proud member of the
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Speaker 2: Labor Radio Podcast Network. We'll see y'all back here next
38:35
Speaker 2: time for another episode of Working People. And in the meantime,
38:39
Speaker 2: go explore all the great work that we're doing at
38:42
Speaker 2: The Real News Network, where we do grassroots reporting that
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Speaker 2: lifts up the voices and stories from the front lines
38:48
Speaker 2: of struggle across the U.S.
38:50
Speaker 1: And around the world.
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Speaker 2: donate and becoming a supporter today. I promise you guys,
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Speaker 2: it really makes a difference. I'm Maximilian Alvarez. Take care
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Speaker 2: of yourselves. Take care of each other. Solidarity forever.
39:24
Speaker 7: When my face you no longer see, I live on, yes,
39:28
Speaker 7: I live on. Wherever we go, we are going to
39:33
Speaker 7: roll the union on. The song, I live on, yes,
39:36
Speaker 7: I live on. Wherever hungry, hungry are we. Just as
39:41
Speaker 7: hungry as hungry can be. The song, I live on, yes,
39:47
Speaker 7: I live on. Where mean things are happening in this
39:50
Speaker 7: land is read or sung, I live on, yes, I
39:54
Speaker 7: live on. Wherever the book mean things are happening in
39:58
Speaker 7: this land is read, I live on, yes, I live on.
40:03
Speaker 7: Wherever the videotape of me is shown.
40:07
Speaker 4: I live on, yes, I live on.
40:10
Speaker 7: If I have heaven to make this a better world
40:13
Speaker 7: to live in, I live on, yes, I live on.
40:17
Speaker 4: When my body.
40:18
Speaker 7: Is solid and in some bones and grave, I live on. Yes,
40:24
Speaker 7: I live on. When my songs and poems are read,
40:29
Speaker 7: I live on. Yes, I live on.